More Money Podcast - 338 How to Untie the Knot & Financially Survive Divorce - Kelly LaVallie, CPA and Author of Untying the Knot

Episode Date: October 5, 2022

No one gets married thinking that they’ll get divorced one day. Unfortunately, not all marriages last and if you find yourself in this position, who do you turn to when it comes to getting help with your finances? This week on the podcast, I have CPA and author of Untying the Knot Kelly LaVallie who joins me to discuss how to navigate the complexities of untying your finances from your ex and how to start again on a good financial foot. Kelly LaVallie is the President of LaVallie & Associates Advisory Services Ltd. with over 25 years of experience in the accounting world. After years of seeing her clients go through divorce and only being able to provide limited financial support, she made the choice to transition her firm into one that worked exclusively with clients in the stages of divorce. Not only that, this year she released her first book, Untying the Knot - Protecting Your Emotional and Financial Health During Divorce, to help better answer people's financial questions about divorce and share how taking back control of your finances can be incredibly empowering when starting a new life for yourself. For full episode show notes visit: https://jessicamoorhouse.com/338 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello, and welcome back to the More Money Podcast. I am your host, Jessica Morehouse, and this is episode 338 of the show. And for this episode, we're going to be talking about money as always, but also divorce, money and divorce. And I have like the perfect guest and perfect expert on this topic joining me today. So you're going to learn so much. I certainly did. Not that I have any plans to divorce, but you know what? It's always good to be informed and just to know what's going on. And that is why I want to invite Kelly LaVallee on the show. She's a CPA who had a corporate accounting practice for 25 years and what began as providing limited financial support for corporate clients going through

marriage breakdown. Well, you know, it transitioned into her full-time divorce financial advisory practice, LaVallee and Associates. Now the firm works exclusively in the area of financially complex divorce, serving individuals with less control over the family assets, less access to financial information, and less experience and knowledge with respect to financial matters. But she's been in this business for a while. She's seen it all, which is what led her to also write her new book called Untying the Knot, which provides helpful guidance for navigating the financial implications of divorce. And yes, I will be giving away a copy of her book as well. So if you've ever been

curious, or maybe you're in a transitional phase in your relationship, and just aren't quite sure what's what does it mean for your finances? Well, we are hopefully going to answer all of those questions in this episode. So you're gonna love this episode. But before I get to that interview with Kelly, here's just a few words I want to share about this season's podcast sponsor. This episode of the More Money Podcast is supported by Desjardins. Does your financial institution share your values? Because Desjardins is about more than just money. They are on a mission to enrich people's lives and improve the economic and social well-being of Canadians everywhere. Desjardins' main goal

as a cooperative is to support its members and make a positive impact on their communities by providing exceptional customer care, offering a variety of financial services, and above all, listening to its members. They've also been at the forefront of sustainable investing as one of the first financial institutions to offer responsible investment portfolios. To learn more about Desjardins and how they're a cooperative making a difference, visit Desjardins.com. Welcome, Kelly, to the More Money Podcast. I'm so excited to have you on the show. I'm thrilled to be here. Thanks for having me. You're so welcome. So you wrote the book Untying the Knot,

which is an amazing book title. It's perfect to explain exactly what is in the book. And I wanted to have you on the show just because, you know, on the podcast, we talk a lot about, you know, how to manage your money and how to build wealth and things like that. But I haven't really done a full deep dive episode, especially with someone like yourself, who's an accountant. So you can see it from the financial perspective of what happens to your financial life when you divorce. And I know the stats are still very high. I'm not sure if it's still 50% of marriages ended the worst, but I know it's still very high. And so this is a reality for a lot of people. And so I'm so glad you're on the show to talk about this. But first, I want to kind of hear a little bit more about your backstory. Obviously, I know in your intro, you kind of shared, you know, not many, you know, people dream of becoming a divorce expert. But this was

became your passion. What, I guess, kind of, yeah, propelled you into this field? It's funny, like the flapping of butterfly wings that can change your life, right? But so I had, you know, a run of the mill, what I loved, corporate practice. And I worked with large private companies that were still run by the owner, right? And so I was, you know, exposed to divorce as an accountant because, you know, your clients go through it. But it was very much periphery. Like when you're in a corporate practice, you tend to keep working with the client who is more financially sophisticated because that's who you had the relationship with. And in my case, you know, the person who ran the company. So,

I mean, of course, I felt personally empathetic, but I just wasn't all that connected with what I call the financially disenfranchised party, right? But I saw the need. I mean, it's a really tough spot to be in as that person who wasn't as involved in the family finances. And now you're going through divorce. You probably lost your advisory team because they keep working with the financially sophisticated person. You lost your key financial advisor, who was your spouse. And now you're navigating what for a lot of people is the biggest business deal of their life. It's a whole lot of other

things too. But, um, and so that was, I mean, I saw a need for sure. And, um, I just happened into my first divorce file. It's, I don't think of them as files. All right. But as accountants and lawyers refer to engagements as files, I of of course, think of them as people. And then I really got to see firsthand the extent of the need and how I could help. And I've, you know, my parents are divorced. I've been divorced. So my empathy level was high. And so I began doing more and more divorce work

and less and less corporate work. And here I am now, I just do full-time divorce advisory work. And did you find that? Because honestly, I can't really name any accountants who specialize in divorce. If someone's looking for someone like you, are there many people? Or is it, you know, very specialized? It's not an easy, you know, kind of expert to find. There's only one of me.

Like, I'll say there's a lot of accountants that do a lot of divorce work, but a lot of those people who specialize in it are what I call experts. Not that I'm not an expert, but they're preparing expert evidence that would be used, like most people settle, right? But you have a need for unbiased financial information that both you and your ex can rely on to make a decision. And so most accountants who specialize in divorce are those unbiased experts. They're helping you value companies or appraise other assets or maybe do some tax structuring to get you unraveled from one another, right? But, and, you know, I'll just like myself, when I had a corporate practice, a lot of accountants who have other types of practices do some divorce advisory work helping their clients when they go through divorce. But by nature,

then you're not doing it that often, right? Like if you're an accountant with 100 clients, you know, maybe you're doing that once a year. And so like, I don't think that there's a ton of accountants who do strictly advisory work, like biased advisory work. And there's also like, you've probably heard of the collaborative process. And that's a formal process. We all want to collaborate to get a deal done, right? But there's a formal what's called collaborative process in the family law environment where you kind of commit, both of you commit that if you're going to stay in this collaborative process, you ain't going to court. So you remove that one tool from the toolbox. But like, it's sort of just an official statement that, hey, we want to try and sort this out amicably. And there are accountants

that work in that environment, again, sort of like, you know, being unbiased. And if you leave the collaborative process, you also leave those people behind and start fresh. So yeah, I haven't found, I haven't really found anyone else who does work like myself in the traditional family law system, where I really just work for one party. But I feel like it's like, you know, I mean, you do explain this in the book, it is, I would say someone like you would be an essential in your kind of toolbox. And when you get to that, and I do want to touch on this, you know, you really do need to build a team. And I really love how you broke it down. Because I feel like when it comes to divorce, I think a lot of people feel alone, because you were in, you know, a couple and now you're uncoupling and you feel really, really alone.

But I think one of the key messages that, you know, I liked in your book is you don't have to go it alone. And that doesn't mean like you obviously you'll have your support system with family and friends, but they can't necessarily help you actually with the divorce. And it's probably best to have some people that are outside of that third party, who can kind of see it with a different lens. So I kind of want to actually, yeah, start there. If people are, you know, someone is thinking of getting a divorce, or maybe they're in the process, they're just not sure if they're doing it right. How can they, you know, arm themselves with a good team to make it happen in the best way possible? And who would be on that team? Sure.

I mean, first, don't feel bad if you don't feel like you know what you're doing because you probably haven't been through it before or if you have, not many times. And so don't feel alone in that. I don't think, it's one of these funny things, right? We've all been exposed to divorce. We've heard about it.

We've seen it on TV. We probably know people have gone through it. So I think sometimes you imagine, well, I shouldn't know how this goes. But I say it's like saying you should know what it feels like to be a parent because you've seen other kids. It's a different animal when it's your divorce. So first of all, there's like no shame in the reality that you need help. It's a technical process to some extent. Like it's a technical process and a personal traumatic and emotional process. Two things going on at the same time, which compounds the challenge, right? So to me, on the technical side of it, first and foremost, you need a lawyer.

And I think that, you know, I definitely hear people, you know, express resistance to that idea. And I think it's because people assume that if I engage a lawyer, this is going to be combative and wildly expensive, right? And I mean, there are as many different types of lawyers as there are humans. Like hiring a lawyer doesn't mean it's going to be combative. It is, I mean, you want to choose a lawyer that is in alignment with the way you want to manage the process. So if they come out swinging in your first meeting with them and you, and they profile themselves as I will, you know, go to war for you and that's not your jam, then don't hire that person. But lawyers are there to inform you about a legal, you know, sister or situation that you're going through. Like without them, you don't really know the lay of the land because the business side of divorce is governed by law.

And so, you know, you might say, well, I just want to be fair. But if you don't know your legal rights and responsibilities, how are you going to determine fair? And if you ask 10 people what fair is, you'll get 10 different answers. So, I mean, of course, I think you need an accountant. But I think first, maybe not first, but before you do anything, you need a lawyer. Even if you are a family lawyer, you need a family lawyer. So that's like a super important, I call it like there's three legs of the stool and that lawyer leg's real important. And it doesn't mean it's going to be combative and it doesn't mean you're losing control. And unless your situation is ridiculously simple, I think that you need a financial advisor.

Like you need an accountant because a big chunk of the business part of this process is about numbers. And it's super reasonable for you to expect that your lawyer will know something about the numbers, but their expertise is the law. You know, that's why it's super reasonable if you work with me for you to expect that I know something about family law, but my expertise is the numbers. And so, you know, the best situations that I see for my clients is when your numbers person and your law person are working together because it is a team effort when we're talking about the numbers, that can be friends and family. But I just want people to tread a teeny bit carefully there. Because speaking from my personal experience, and professionally, you know, just bearing witness to a lot of people going through divorce as I work with them, your people, like your friends and family are going to have their own feelings about what you're

going through. Like they're not, they're in it. And for sure they want what's best for you, but the fact that they're in it with you can make it a little challenging for them to be really a support for you. And so you might consider hiring a professional on the personal front, therapist, counselor, coach, something like that. Absolutely. Well, so you mentioned to in your book, you know, although this is a book about divorce, there is a likelihood that you may work out that this may just be a bump in the road and you reconcile and you know, talking to friends and family, even if you're not like married, and you're, you're going through a rough patch with your partner, and then you tell all your friends and family even if you're not like married and you're you're going through a rough patch with your partner and then you tell all your friends and

family and then you get back together it's so awkward trying to be like oh no we're good now so you don't have to hate them forget what i said forget what i just said everything i told you everything's fine so yeah absolutely oh yeah gotta be careful on that ted lightly but yeah no i i i love that you you really put the emphasis on you need the people with the kind of technical help, but then also on the personal front, too, because it's think a lot of people probably think to like the TV shows and movies that show like these really big divorces or even the media with celebrities and stuff like that. But there's a couple different ways you can go about it. You talk about there's mediation, there's arbitration, then there's litigation. And again, I'm not a lawyer. So I'm like, oh, I actually don't know actually what those kind of pathways look like. Do you want to kind of share a little bit more about that? Because it does sound like

it depends on your your needs, who your partner is, and kind of how the situation is. And yeah, what makes the most sense for you? Absolutely. All of that can be pretty overwhelming. And I've seen people who are even right in the middle of it, and who are unsure of those options, right? And the path you choose, you know, it can evolve through the process. But I mean, you can be handle it as simply as doing it yourself. Like talking directly with your, with your soon to be ex, hammering out a deal and going to a lawyer potentially to have that deal papered right so but uh that I just say like be careful yeah be super careful if you do that because like I said like the the pitfalls there you don't know what you don't know so unless like unless you are a family lawyer or maybe you've been married for 10 minutes,

like, please, please don't, please don't do that. And so let's say you're, you're not going to do it yourself. Then, so you're going to work with a lawyer. And there's kind of the first choice you have to make is, are you going to enter the collaborative process? And this is a formal, like official collaborative process, or the more traditional process. And it is not to say that if you go the traditional path, you won't collaborate. It's just that you're not entering the officially, like what's called the collaborative process, which has been around for like three or four decades. And that all the, the real difference in the collaborative process is literally has been around for like three or four decades. And that all the, the real difference in the collaborative process is literally what I said, which is

you're committing that while you're in the collaborative process, you're not going to litigate. You're not going to involve the court. Okay. So you enter into this agreement, like this is how it's going to look like. The other thing with that process, I mean, one of the lovely things about it is it attracts professionals and people and clients, people who really want to do this a different way. Like, let's not turn this into a battle. So that's wonderful. But there's a lot of people in the traditional system who feel the same way. So I recommend to people, like, go and meet with a lawyer. There are lawyers that you'll find that work in both the collaborative system and in the traditional system.

Go meet with one. Get them to tell you, like, this is what they think. I think there's two big challenges with the collaborative system, even though I absolutely love the spirit of it. One is litigation. It's not just what we see on TV, like it's your day in court, right? It's not just that. It's anytime you involve the court to nudge things along. Okay. And that could just be one little step like, hey, my ex is not providing the financial disclosure I need to

make decisions. Could we go to the court and nudge him along, right? Or her along. And so with the collaborative system, you're just taking that out of the toolbox. Okay. So, and sometimes like you might start out thinking you don't need that tool and then like the emotional fallout of divorce or like someone starts dating and the whole process changes its nature a lot as people work through the personal challenges of it, right? Right. So the other challenge with the collaborative system is if it falls apart, like if now things have derailed, now you're battling, now you think you might need to litigate. All those people who for the lawyers who are involved with you and any like professionals, like accountants who are working with you, they can't keep working with you. So you need a new team. So those are two kind of like challenges with the collaborative system. And then in the, so now let's say, okay, maybe we want to go the traditional path, which can look very similar. It's just that if you need to, you can involve the court. And if things fall

apart and you can't reach a deal together through negotiation, which is really what this whole thing is, mainly it's a negotiation, then you can end up in trial, right? So with that traditional path, you know at the end of that, you're getting a deal. It might not be one that you mutually agreed on with your ex, but maybe it's court-imposed, but you got a deal, right? So let's just talk about some of the options within that more traditional system. Like I said, it's a negotiation, right? So you could have some of that negotiation directly with your ex. You can run it as a, you know, again, be careful. And I'd like people to be really supported in the background by their team if they're doing that. You can have your lawyer negotiate on your behalf directly with your ex's lawyer. And then, like, sometimes you reach logjams. Often that you can get right to a final settlement agreement just with that.

You talked to your ex, you know, the two of you talked together, your lawyers talked a bit, and now you have a deal. Like that's pretty common, right? But sometimes you'll get a lot of it sorted out and then you'll hit a bit of a jam, right? And in that case, you can mediate. Mediation, like all a mediator is, is an independent third party, hopefully with expertise, that helps you get through those walls that you ran into in your negotiation. And so their whole reason for being is to try and find common ground, help the two of you find common ground and reach an agreement. And so, you know, that you're still the decision maker in that process, you and your, you know, ex are still making decisions. If, if the mediator, you know, encourages you down a path and you don't want to go down, you just say no, right. But I've,

you know, participated in mediations because you, you just say no, right? But I've, you know, participated in mediations because you also, like to me, in a mediation, you should still be supported by your team. You should still have your lawyer and your financial advisor with you. But so I participated in a number of mediations where, you know, my client just feels like, is this a waste of time? Because we've been pounding away at this for two years and we haven't gotten anywhere. And why is a two-day mediation going to, you know, solve this problem? But it is surprisingly effective. I think often that mediator, they're an expert in their own right in the process. And sometimes it's helpful to hear from an unbiased party like, hey,

I think these are the weaknesses or the weaknesses in your position, the strengths in your position. And it can help people to get unstuck. And then arbitration, it looks similar, but at the end, if you don't reach a deal, then that third party will make a decision for you. So in that respect, it's a little bit more like litigation, right? You're handing over that decision-making authority to someone else.

And then litigation, I would say, like, please don't start there. Don't start with the idea that you're going to litigate. Like, I do think, like, I get it often when you get to the brink of divorce or now you're in the divorce process. Like, people have behaved badly often, right? Like, sadly, it's not as common that people just in a mature way say I think we we need to wrap this up right um and when you're getting divorced like people you're both going through a terrible situation so bad behavior is common um and so I get that sometimes you might think, I just, I don't, I don't trust this person. I, I'm furious

and I want to go to court. Like I'm going to fight this out, but I'm not saying don't do that because I, I care about your ex. Like I, I care about you and that is a bad path for you. So yeah, I don't, I think it's like the last resort. Yeah, that makes sense. It's so it's, you know, start with mediation. And then you've got some other stages if those that's not quite working out. But yeah, I think it's important to, to know your options and your pathways. One thing that you kind of touched on is, I mean, divorce is very emotional, but it's the key. And you kind of mentioned this in your book is it's so important to be pragmatic.

That's how you're going to kind of survive this thing and end up in an OK situation. And you do touch on this in your book is, you know, kind of in the thick of it. How do you kind of put those emotions into check so you can basically end this business contract, which is your marriage? Right. Like, unfortunately, you don't have time to, you know, work through the emotional element of it and then deal with the business element. That's not how it goes. Like, so you're in the midst of doing both. And one impacts the other. When you're having a tough time with your thinking and feeling on the personal front with respect to the end of the relationship, it impacts the business deal. And when the business deal becomes challenging and, you know and your ex is asking for half the value of your wedding ring, that can kind of set you back on the thinking and feeling side of it.

So I do think to the extent possible to compartmentalize those two streams that you're dealing with. Okay, we're human, so it's not entirely possible. But to the extent possible, you know, things like behavioral things like don't talk to your lawyer at length about the emotional aspect of your divorce, because that starts to blur the lines. Some of it, again, like we're human and these two areas do bleed together, right? But there are certain behaviors you can do to try and create this boundary. Like I have two hats. One, I'm a human going through a terrible experience and the other is I'm a business person managing a really important business deal. You know, I think too, there are other, being proactive in the way that you think about your divorce can also help.

Like I'll say like from personal experience going through it myself, like're thinking is not that clear. All right. But if possible, to just examine some of the things that's influencing the way the divorce is landing for you. Like, for example, you know, there we have these stories we tell ourselves when we're getting divorced. We have stories we tell ourselves when we're getting married, like it's forever, I found my soulmate, it's going to be magical. And then we have other stories we say when we get divorced, which is I'm a failure, I chose the wrong person, I'm damaged goods, you know, and those, like, I don't believe those things. I've spent lots of time thinking about them, not just from my own perspective, but for my clients,

which you get more clear when you're thinking about someone else, right? But those stories, they're false, and they make it way harder when you're going through divorce. So challenge some of those things that you're telling yourself that are leading to you suffering more and to the whole process being more challenging to work through. You know, I think too, like this whole people behave badly. Okay. People that you often have like a decent list of, you know, things that your ex has done that you say, this sucks, this is bad behavior. And frankly, even if the marriage ends relatively well through the divorcing period, which can be sadly years, it's a breeding ground for those lists of the bad behavior of your ex and your own bad behavior. Like, so I think a lot of people suffer with blame and with feeling shame about stuff they've done.

And you think, well, what's why? Who cares if I blame my ex? Like, I don't have to be married to them anymore. And I think that they're a jerk. But being immersed in that, like, I'm a victim, they're a villain, or maybe I'm a villain, you know, is not at all helpful to, in the short term, to you managing the business of divorce, and in the long term, to you actually moving through the divorce or divorcing period, instead of getting stuck in it for the rest of your life. Yeah. Well, I know there's one part in your book that you mentioned where you, I guess, with your divorce with your first husband, you felt kind of some maybe guilt for leaving that

marriage. And so you maybe thought of yourself more like that, but not in the villain, but you know, you're like kind of the guilty party because you're ending it. And you kind of gave up some of your financial and personal assets because you just wanted to, you know, there's, there's just like some emotions that kind of got involved. And you said in the end, you know, it kind of worked out, you were young, and you could rebuild, but lots of people may kind of do the same thing. And it's very difficult to rebuild your financial life. Do you want to kind of speak a little bit to that? Yes. I mean, so you're feeling like you're the villain and you want to make it better by throwing money at your ex. And I mean, okay, when it comes to blame and shame, like I feel like more affinity for the people who feel shame, like maybe because I am one. And so I get

it. And it's somehow more virtuous like to feel shame to me than to blame like, but they both suck and they both lead to bad decisions. So when it comes to throwing money or giving up your rights if you feel shame or like just paying wildly more than the law would say you had to, the problem with that is you, I promise, will come to a more balanced view of your divorce. Divorce 100% takes two people to create. And you'll find more balance over time. But the financial cost is permanent. I mean, of course, you can recover your finances, but it has a permanent impact on your financial life. And the worst part is it doesn't work. Like the you throwing money at your ex does not make them feel better that you left. Like it so you you tried to buy something that wasn't on offer. So don't do it. Yeah, absolutely. I want to kind of talk about the weird kind of, you call it the, what is it, the limbo, that kind of weird part where you're not divorced yet, you're kind of

in the middle, but you're not married exactly, that weird limbo. And I think a lot of people, you know, myself included, because I've never experienced this, have no idea how to navigate your finances when you're not married, but you're not divorced, you're in the middle. But you have some really great advice for how to navigate it, because you're still, you may still have some of your money in a, you know, joint account, you may still have lots of things that you share with your soon to be ex, you want to kind of speak to when you're in that weird situation that a lot of people unless they've experienced it can really speak to how to navigate this weird in between time. It's it's such a difficult time on so many levels, like, in terms of the process of divorce,

you are at your worst, probably, right When you're, it's fresh. And so I'll speak for myself. When I started in this business, in the divorce business, I had my eye on, let's help people get through this as fast as possible. Like, let's just get to the finish line. And a lot of the systems around the business of divorce are all engineered around this finish line, like helping people get their final settlement done, which is great. It is a crappy process. You do want to get it over as quickly as possible. However, it can also be a complex and lengthy process.

And so what do we do from that time that you move out or they move out until you have a final settlement? Because it can be painfully long. And your finances still, like that day after you move out, your finances probably are still completely entangled. But now your interests are not aligned. So we have this connection with one another and a lack of like goal alignment. And so you're at risk, I'd say. You're both at risk for the one another's behavior because still often like the law is, you know, different in different areas, but definitely some of the things that your ex does and some of the things you do financially are going to impact the other, right? You know, and there's this practical need to buy groceries.

And so if you especially were the party with less control over the family asset base, you just practically speaking need to know where you're going to be getting cash during this period. You know, the other reason it's so important to have a financial plan for this period is because you are in a negotiation, like, and it's very likely you'll get to a deal, negotiate a deal, not an imposed deal through an arbitrator or a court, right? So if you're in a negotiation and you're scrambling every month to pay rent and buy groceries, you are at a major disadvantage in that negotiation. You're going to accept something you wouldn't otherwise accept if you could actually pay your bills. And so there are practical things you need to think about, I think, before you leave, if you're the leader or leader,

or immediately upon your ex or soon-to-be ex leaving, if he was or she was the one that made that choice. But, you know, and the first is just where are you getting cash? And hopefully that's something that you can discuss with your ex. Um, but sometimes that isn't possible. And then you, you need to think about asking for help going into debt. Like this is a, just a time in your life where I don't want you to be worried about taking some steps back financially. It's, it's our reality of marriage breakdown. Like this is the rainy day. And if you torment yourself because, oh my gosh, I had to go to my parents for money,

which I haven't done in 15 years, please don't like, that's just, it's the process. And yeah, if you need to go to the bank for money or go to your parents for money, I want you to do that. But, you know, and then the next thing is, OK, I want to insulate myself from my exposure to my ex's choices. And so sometimes like people, OK, let's, you know, close the joint credit cards get rid of the line of credit pay off all our joint debt um the the i just caution people about that because um like i said it can take a long time to sort this stuff out and your borrowing capacity even if it's connected to your ex might be necessary for both of you to weather this process and sadly pay professionals. And so it's this balance between getting unraveled, getting disconnected from this person as quickly as possible to insulate yourself from the risk and preserving your liquidity, your access to capital.

And in your book, you also mentioned that it's important to maybe limit how much you share with your banker, which is something I actually never thought about that. If you kind of mentioned him getting a divorce, they may be less likely to approve you for credit if that's something that you need down the road. Oh, yeah, I don't think there's anything that freaks a banker out more than that word. Yeah. Like I'm, yeah, so I'm not saying to lie. I'm just saying that, you know, if your banker's not asking, you might not want to volunteer and certainly don't share divorce drama with your banker. I mean, your banker can be an advocate too, right? Like, because you can use your banker to help insulate you from the behavior of your ex.

Like, hey, look, I need these accounts to be joint signatory. Like, I can no longer have my ex make unilateral decisions on these accounts to be joint signatory. Like I can't, I can no longer have my ex make unilateral decisions on these accounts. So, but I, but it's just like, be cautious because you want your banker to be calm and relaxed because this is a time where you probably need more financing and not less. Yeah. Yeah, no, absolutely. I'm curious. So that's kind of what I think the limbo stage looks like and how, I mean, it must be vastly different once you get to the other side, you are fully, you know, separate, individual, no longer joined with your partner. Like what is that phase look? I feel like for a lot of people, especially if you've been married for a long time and things were just so intertwined, it can be just so hard to even remember. You're like, the

last time I was doing my own finances, I was in like my 20s or something like that. Like, so what can people kind of expect for that new phase? Sure. I mean, so one of the good things about being married is that you can divide and conquer, right? Like I get to focus on my strengths and my interests and that's great. Trade theory, right? And so I think it really depends on what your role with respect to the family finances was to how your kind of like financial life feels after divorce. Like let's just wildly gender stereotype and say, okay, you know, I as mom focus more on the kids. So in the same way, post-divorce that dad is like, what do I feed these kids? Like, I have no idea really how to, like, forgive the gender stereotyping, but we, everyone needs to, to regain their competence in those areas where they were not focused when they were married. And if you're married for a long time, like you can be real, real rusty, right?

But so taking the finances, I think there's a process of the practical rebuilding, like you need to have your own accounts. Maybe you need to build up independent credit. You need a team. Like, you know, all of us in the money business know there's like a million different types of accountants. Maybe you need a banker. You need an accountant to help you file your taxes. You need a financial planner, a wealth manager. like, you need to figure out, like, who the hell do I need? And then you need to find those people. And there's the building up of your confidence around it. in the financial area, if this wasn't their area during their marriage, are not feeling very confident. And so just to know that you're not alone in that and that it will come and you'll get to discover your own financial identity that isn't connected to your ex. Because I haven't met any two people that have the same idea about how to manage money or the way they think about money. So you get to discover yourself.

I mean, and you're going through that in lots of different ways after you get divorced. But it can feel daunting. And I think that if you can find one professional advisor, maybe it's your banker, right? Everyone has a banker who can just help you figure out whether you need other professionals involved. And like, hey, if you're feeling like you're at loose ends, you have no idea how to deal with like your new car loan or should you lease or buy. Someone you can call if you need a hand.

Yeah. Yeah. I can't imagine. It's, yeah, it's one of those things sometimes I, you know, not as ever, it's, you know, when your mind wanders, you're like, what if, what would my life look like if, you know, yeah, you know, we, we weren't together. I'm like, it would be, it would be a challenge, you know, and that's, I think that was one of the hardest parts for me, honestly, even getting married was I was so independent before. And so then joining

forces and then to kind of unjoin, it's a difficult task. But I mean, you've been doing this for a while. You've also experienced it yourself and you know it's difficult, but it's something that you can get through. And I know you also mentioned that in the book. It's like, it's something that you have to actually get through. You can't get around. You got to go through it. And then you get on the other side of it and you can continue your life and hopefully a life that's even brighter and, you know, healthier for you. Like there's a reason that you got divorced is because things weren't working. So you want to live a life that's the life that you're meant to be.

I hope it gives people comfort. Like what I've witnessed seeing my clients go through that process is that it's super empowering. Like even when you're married and you're not at all involved in the family finances, there's a little bit of insecure, I'm generalizing, but like an insecure feeling about that. And so to move into taking control over this part of your life like what i've observed in my clients is it's super empowering can i just also give a little plug about if you're married if you're married and like again i love the whole divide and conquer idea but when it comes to the big stuff, like be informed about the big stuff, weigh in on the big stuff. And this is like, the difference with say, like, let's say when it comes

to the kids, one person's more actively involved. Let's say you do that. The difference is your spouse is bearing witness to parenting. Like the kids are running around the house. They're going to weigh in at a minimum. They're going to be informed. When it comes to the finances, you have to be more proactive in order to be informed. Like you could actually completely abdicate. The only thing that you stay involved in is still spending some of the money, right? But you could absolutely be completely ignorant about all of the family finances beyond that. And not just because I want to protect you if things go crappy, but I believe that there's better outcomes when both people stay involved at a strategic level, at a minimum, because, again, no two people think the same. Like, you might say, hey, you know what, now that I have an understanding, I'd like us to pay down debt instead of buying a bigger house.

Like, I mean, you have valuable things to add to the family finance discussion. Mm-hmm. 100% I mean, especially as like a woman in finance, that is like the number one thing that I see, especially with all the stats out there that, you know, women typically kind of aren't well, I mean, it's changing now. But you know, definitely 10 years ago, when I started learning about this stuff, a lot of the information in books was that women are not part of the family finances. And this can be a disadvantage if you are in a situation where you divorce, but just in general, it's so important if you're married and so much of your lives are intertwined, the finances, I feel like should 100% be a two party thing. And sometimes it's hard. Like for me, it took me years to actually, because I'm the

money manager, it took me years to really involve my husband because he just wasn't interested. And I think it made him anxious and he just didn't like it. And so it's not necessarily a fun thing, but it is an important thing. Yeah, I had to stop, you know, doing the monthly in detail reporting to my husband because his eyes would glaze over. But you know, you can find your sweet spot in terms of the amount that you want want to be involved but please don't let it be zero yeah absolutely absolutely well before i let you go just because you have you know so much experience in this and i mean you're one of the only specialists really in this what is like one key thing you would want to tell someone who is at the beginning stages of this divorce to make sure that they end up okay.

I would say arm yourself with information, both on the legal front and the financial front, so that you can make quality decisions because you must know what your rights and responsibilities are in this situation in order to handle it well absolutely and it's i feel like most of us don't know what those rights and responsibility and all those things are as we enter a marriage which is kind of crazy you'd think there'd be maybe a test or something like i don't know pamphlet i don't know but yeah most of us have no idea. And we only then need to know when you're on the other side of it and you want to, you know, divorce is like, oh, wait, what are my things? Oh, yeah. Don't get me started.

It's the biggest like scrolling for the I accept button ever. Like you just scrolled through something that's vital. Yeah. Yeah. It's crazy. It's crazy. Well, where can I know, you know, people that are especially like,. Yeah, it's crazy. It's crazy. Well, where can I know, you know, people that are especially like, you know, like, oh, my gosh, this is so helpful for me. Or I have a friend who's going through something like this.

Where can they get a copy of your book, Untying the Knot? And where can they find more information about you as well? Sure. My website is KellyLeValley.com. And there's links there to buy my book, Untying the Knot. But it's also available on pretty much every onlinealley.com. And there's links there to buy my book on tying the knot, but it's also available on pretty much every online retailer. Amazing. Well, thank you so much, Kelly, for joining me on the show. It was so, so helpful to have you here and share all of your amazing wisdom. Thanks for having me. It was a real pleasure. And that was episode 338 with Kelly LaVallee. Make sure to check her out on her website,

kellylavallee.com. That's L-A-V-A-L-L-I-E.com. Of course, I'm going to include that in the show notes for this episode. And you can find that at jessicamorehouse.com slash 338. And of course, don't forget to follow her on Instagram, also at Kelly LaVallee. And she also goes by Kelly underscore LaVallee on TikTok, if you want to check out her TikTok. And of course, grab a copy of her book, Untying the Knot. Yeah, hope you enjoyed that episode. I've got some things to share as always. So stick around. Here's just a few words I want to share about this season's podcast sponsor. This episode of the More Money Podcast is supported by

Desjardins. Do you feel valued at your financial institution? Because Desjardins is on a mission to enrich the lives of Canadians, help build stronger communities, and educate its members so they can confidently reach their financial goals. Not only do they offer one-of-a-kind customer care and offer a variety of financial services to fit your needs. As a cooperative, they put their members first. So if you're looking for an institution that's making an impact, look no further than Desjardins. To learn more about Desjardins and how they're making a difference, visit Desjardins.com. All right, just a reminder that I'm going to give away a copy of Kelly's book, Untying the Knot.

I'm also giving away a couple of different books as well currently. Let's see, what do we have? The running list. Oh, yeah, we've got Alan Hendry's Seen, Heard, and Paid, Eric Balchunas, his book, The Bogle Effect, and Nicole Lappin's Becoming Superwoman. So lots of books, and there are quite a few more books I'm giving away coming up in this season. So that's why you got to keep on listening and checking jessicamorehouse.com slash contest for what new books are available to enter to win because I will add them whenever the new guest is on. So there's always kind of new books to kind of look forward to. So make sure to go to jessicamorehouse.com slash contest and you can enter. Also, if you were really interested in

this topic, you know, money and divorce, you'll also want to check out an episode I did about a year ago with Leanne Townsend. She was on the show for episode 288 about how to marry and divorce well. So it's kind of a great companion episode to this episode. So make sure to check her out. She actually also has a podcast about divorcing well. So it's kind of a great addition to this if you want another divorce episode. I haven't done I mean, I've only done two. So I highly recommend you check that out. That's episode 288. So you can find it easily on whatever app you're listening this on. But also Jessicaorehouse.com slash 288. And of course, a reminder, if you want to find any episode I've ever done, it is on my website at jessicamorehouse.com slash podcast. Also, in case you don't know,

and you want to follow the podcast specifically on social media, I do have an Instagram account and a Twitter account for the show. I really just kind of promote the episodes. So it's really just a way if you want to be a nudge, hey, the new episode is out or, or also to it's a way for you to communicate with me because I don't know if you know this, but yeah, it's me doing my social media. I look at all the comments. I look at all the DMS and stuff like that. It is just me. So if you want to comment or reply back or share what you think is, uh, you know, your thoughts about a particular episode, I mean, that's the way to do it. So you can follow me on Instagram or the show rather at more money podcast. That's free Instagram on Twitter.

It's at more money pod because there's too many characters. It wouldn't let me do podcasts. So I just stopped at pod. So annoying, but it is what it is. But also with that, follow me, Jessica Morehouse on Instagram as well. I just finally hit 12k, which is exciting. My goal for the year is 15. Not sure if we're going to do it, but you know what? Why not? Let's just see how it goes. So you can follow me at Jessica I Morehouse on Instagram if you like. Lots of fun things I do on my Instagram. I do, you know, Q&As or, you know, ask me any things. I'm doing some reels, you guys. Maybe they're embarrassing. Maybe they're not. But yeah, sometimes I will dance. Yeah, I'm also on TikTok, but it's just, it's a struggle. I don't really love it. I don't love the platform. It's not really my vibe, but I do just kind of post my Instagram reels onto my TikTok. But I do exist there. Where am I? I don't even remember

what my handle is. Oh, it's the same as Instagram. Okay, you can find me at Jessica I. Morehouse. That is where you can find me on the TikTok. Oh, TikTok. Is there anything else I need to share with you besides all that? I don't know. I don't know. You know what? I'll tell you who you can be excited about coming on the show next week. I've got Annie Sloan, and she is an HGTV producer, and she's worked on a ton of amazing shows. But also, she's an expert when it comes to short-term rentals and Airbnb and VRBO and stuff like that. So I'm having her on the show so we can discuss what does it look like? What does it entail owning a real estate property but not doing a long term rental doing an Airbnb? Is it worth it? Is it worth the hassle? How risky is it? All that good stuff. So very excited to share that episode with you next week. But yeah, I feel like that might be it for me. So I'm gonna let you go. A big shout out to my podcast editor Matt Rideout. And thanks so much for listening. So I'm going to let you go. A big shout out to my podcast editor, Matt Rideout. And thanks so much for listening. And I will see you back here next Wednesday.

This podcast is distributed by the Women in Media Podcast Network. Find out more at womeninmedia.network.