More Money Podcast - 341 Why a Degree Is No Longer a Guarantee of Financial Success - Dr. Zakiya Akerele, Educator and Author

Episode Date: October 26, 2022

Like many millennials, I was sold the idea that as long as I got a degree, I’d be able to secure a well-paying job and have a long and successful career. However, as I soon learned after graduation, a degree is no longer a guarantee of anything (besides years of debt repayments perhaps). That's why I knew I needed to have Dr. Zakiya Akerele on the podcast to discuss her new book, aptly named Dump Your Degree, to explore how to make the most out of your degree anyway and how to give your career a headstart if you're still working towards your diploma. Dr. Akerele is an Atlanta-based educator and speaker. She received her Ph.D. at Fordham University and has served in various capacities at higher education institutions and at social justice, political, and non-governmental organizations (NGOs) both in the U.S. and abroad. She’s also the author of Dump Your Degree: How to Repurpose Your Education, Control Your Career, and Gain Financial Freedom. In this episode, Dr. Akerele shares what led her as a passionate educator to write this book, as well as what advice is no longer relevant for Gen Z when it comes to higher education, and why she thinks mentors are vital to a burgeoning career. She also gives some great tips on how to network with the connections you already possess. For full episode show notes visit: https://jessicamoorhouse.com/341 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello, Lulu, and welcome back to the More Money Podcast. This is your host, Jessica Morehouse, and this is episode 341 of the show. And oh boy, I have an amazing guest on the show, but also a really interesting topic. I mean, I say this sometimes, but I mean, it's true. I don't think I've really approached this topic too much, and that's why I wanted to have her on the show. I was looking for guests and I stumbled upon her book called Dump Your Degree. And I'm like, I need to have this fabulous woman on my show to discuss why you should dump your degree or why you maybe shouldn't go to university. And now obviously it's too late for some of us, myself, because I'm old and have been to university. But a lot of us are having kids and setting up,

you know, RESPs and assuming that our kids are going to go to university or college. But what if that's not the path for them? And what if that's not even the right path, you know, anymore? Things have changed so much. And we dive into a lot of that in this episode. So I am so excited to have Dr. Zakia Akareli on the show. She is an Atlanta-based educator, author, and speaker who found an early passion in academic pursuits, hoping to use them to improve herself and also the world around her. And she's received her PhD at Fordham University and has served in various capacities at higher education institutions at social justice, political, and NGO non-governmental organizations, both in the U.S. and abroad. And her new book called Dump Your Degree is a very timely and invaluable resource for anyone seeking

guidance on navigating higher education, developing their career, and also having financial security. And you're just going to love this episode. I mean, I think it's brilliant that she's writing a book called Dump Your Degree about some of the downsides of getting higher education, and yet she has a PhD. But I mean, it makes sense because she's been through it. She has the experience, and she also works with students. And so I think you're going to love this episode. You're going to learn quite a bit. So before I get to that interview with Zakiya, here's just a few words about this season's podcast sponsor. This episode of the More Money Podcast is supported by Desjardins. Does your financial institution share your values? Because Desjardins is about more than just money.

They are on a mission to enrich people's lives and improve the economic and social well-being of Canadians everywhere. Desjardins' main goal as a cooperative is to support its members and make a positive impact on their communities by providing exceptional customer care, offering a variety of financial services, and above all, listening to its members. They've also been at the forefront of sustainable investing as one of the first financial institutions to offer responsible investment portfolios. To learn more about Desjardins and how they're a cooperative making a difference, visit Desjardins.com. Welcome, Zakiya, to the More Money Podcast. I'm so excited to have you on the show. Thank you for having me. I'm excited as well. Well, yeah. I mean, you have, like when I saw kind of your name kind of put forth to be on my show, and then I saw the name

of your book, I'm like, oh, I need to have her on my show. Because I've never, I've never seen a book, you know, your book is called Dump Your Degree, how to repurpose your education, control your career and gain financial freedom. You have a PhD, you've been to school many a time, and yet you're telling people to kind of not maybe go down that path which is so interesting but also I feel like very uh relevant to what we're seeing um with education these days and also very relevant to like I'm a millennial I'm in my mid-30s and this was something that took me pretty much a decade to kind of maneuver and navigate because everything that you speak to in your book I'm like that's exactly what experienced. And it took me a long time to figure out like, am I doing this right or doing it wrong?

Right. I think a lot of us, you know, I was always that person that would like to draw within the lines, always very straight and narrow, following the advice of my elders, because I thought that was what smart people did. And smart people went to school and all that kind of stuff. And then my experience after getting my education and my degree was not what I was promised. And I think there's a lot of millennials and probably Gen Zs as well that are very disillusioned. So we've got a lot of good things to talk about. But first, I want to start with you are an educator. You have multiple degrees.

Why did you want to write this book? Or tell me a little bit about, I guess, your background and experience that led you to this point where you're like, I need to write this book for, you know, future generations. Yeah, so I'm a millennial as well, probably on the older tip, like right entering in, but a millennial nonetheless, and I was given the advice as well go to school. I myself am a third generation educator. So going to get into higher education, getting degrees, that's nothing new for me or, you know, from my family, right? That was the kind of the blueprint. But unfortunately, my experiences were very different from those who came before me. One, they didn't have to take out student loans. And if they did, they didn't take them out at the level I had to, right?

Because college tuition was significantly less than it is now. Also, the advice of just get a degree. There was not really a structuring of like looking at the cost and the benefits of particular degrees. The focus was just on higher education, but not like weighing everything. So that my experience led me to get degrees, particularly in areas that were not in high demand that did not pay well. My goal was to ultimately become a professor. After having changed my mind to become an attorney, I took the LSATs, you know, those didn't do that. Those didn't go as expected. And I was like, Oh, what am I going to do? But I realized that I had a passion for what I was learning in philosophy and religion

and like learning about different religions and cultures and all that type of stuff. But that that's not in high demand. So I was like, Okay, I really want to be a professor. So I thought, okay, I'll go get a master's, got a master's in that took some time off work, I've always worked whether not as much in undergrad, but some somewhat in undergrad. But throughout my graduate experiences, I always worked. So even when I took a break, got a second master's, this time in international education, and then going on to get my doctorate. When I got out into the job market in around 2010, after having completed my doctorate, we were just coming out of a recession. So not only was it just like not a lot of jobs available,

but particularly in the areas that I wanted to get into. So that was a complete shock. Having always had, you know, the availability to work, whether it was as a researcher or doing conflict resolution with interfaith groups or doing all these things, those jobs were just few and far between. So I was like, I don't know what to do. I was living in New York City. So that was like, you know, another added expense. I couldn't really chill and relax. So I ended up going back home. I was raised in Florida and I was like, okay, no, I cannot do this because I've been out of the house since I was 17 away to college. Now having to come back 10 years later and like start all over again, like what am I doing? How am I going to, you know, get into a career? I was really stuck and it took a toll on me personally, professionally. So what I said was, look, I'm going to have to figure out a way,

an unconventional way to approach this job search, to approach the job market and not just, oh, you know, submit an application and hope that you're the best candidate. That's just not going to work. So I figured out ways to set myself apart. I ended up getting roles in industries that paid well, that were not directly in line with my degrees, but that I had the skill set for. And so that like put a light bulb off in my head. And I was like, okay, I can do this in other ways or help others. I did eventually three years after that, get my dream job as a professor. And so I was, you know, steady, you know, employment, stable, content with the work I was doing. But what triggered this book was seeing my students go on to now

experience the same challenges I once had. They were graduating and not finding work. And I was like, oh, no, what am I going to do? So I even though I most of my students took my courses because they were taking it for electives in the humanities and things like that, I still set some time aside to help them to plan for their career while they were still in school, no matter what their major was. So that's kind of like how the ball started rolling. And I said, OK, look, you can't just think that the degree is going to open the door. It takes a lot more than that. It's about who you know, it's about

the things you know, as far as skills, the talents you have, marketing yourself, it's a whole thing that goes into having a successful career. And it's not just, oh, I've graduated, now let me apply for jobs, and they'll just come, you know, rolling in. That's not how it works. So that's how Dump Your Degree started. Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, one part of your book that really stuck with me was when you were on a panel, you were talking to, I think, a board or another, you know, a bunch of professors. And you were trying to kind of get the message across that, hey, we need to do a better job of preparing these, you know, grads for employment. And they were telling you, no, that's not what university is for. It's not to prepare them for employment is to educate them or to provide them with

knowledge. And that for me, I'm like, oh, my gosh, that is actually very I've heard, you know, when I was in school, that is kind of what I was hearing. But everyone but you know, your whole point is, but people go to school to get a job they don't get to to go to school just so they can have more knowledge and then figure out how to get a job i think that was so and that's like i think ultimately the the big problem with post-secondary education or especially like you know universities they don't prepare you for the real world um but they they sell the dream though because you also mentioned well when you look at all the marketing material and gosh whenever i go home to vancouver i feel like whenever you're on the sky train that's all you see is advertisements

for going to these different universities and colleges and how they promote it is this person got a job xyz but then the actual experience is like no like like my i remember so so vividly when because we really didn't talk about like how to get a job and I I mean you talk about like you have a degree or you have a chapter in your book saying don't get a BS degree and I did I got a film degree BS I mean it was great but you know it didn't help me get the job that I'm doing now and I remember having a conversation with one of my professors in my last year being like oh gosh I have to think about what's next I remember like how do I I asked him like how do I get a job what should we think about next gosh, I have to think about what's next. And I remember like, how do I, I asked him like, how do I get a job? What should we think about next? He's like,

have you thought about doing a master's? And I'm like, that is not an answer, right? And I think that's the answers a lot of students are getting. And it's, it's really scary. And I mean, a lot of the things that you point out in your book, you know, that are things that you have, it's kind of like you have to have a side hustle in university. And that means just preparing, getting new skills so you so you are employable so it's like you can't just get by doing well in school and honestly kind of doing well in school isn't that important not one person has ever asked me what my grades were exactly exactly so yeah I want to kind of talk a little bit about some of the I think advice that is no longer relevant that we need to kind of put aside, because it's still happening. These kids are still, you know, Gen Z and even younger, they're still getting this advice from their parents who are, you know, 20, 30 years older than them. And it's not really working anymore. And so what are some of these things that you, you know, you heard, but also maybe some of the students that you've worked with are still hearing that we need to just ignore completely now? Well, that basically the degree is what is kind of like that golden ticket to success. It's not. We see a lot of people who

become successful without degrees. So it's more so about the skills. You even see a lot of these tech companies and other companies that are saying we don't even require a degree anymore. It's good if you have it, okay, but really we want you to have the skills. And there are even opportunities to solely, you know, specialize in a particular area without a degree, whether it's in tech or any other industry, like you mentioned film, you know, there are people who work in film that don't have a degree in it, but they've, you know, gotten some certifications or what have you. So, you know, when you're looking at the type of degree, if you're going into things like medicine, sure, you need a degree, right? Those credentials matter. But if you're more so undecided, more into like the liberal arts or humanities or things like that, I would not recommend someone go and spend all this money to get degrees in those things unless they have a particular career trajectory that would require it.

Maybe to ultimately become a professor. Yeah, you need a Ph.D. in that. But the irony in that is many professors are not making what people think they're making. Yeah, they're not making six or seven figures. No, no, no. And then even the majority of colleges or overwhelming amount of colleges and universities are hiring adjuncts. And adjuncts are not full time. They're're not, um, paid any, are given any benefits. You're pretty much like a part-time worker. You could, um, last time I checked, you can pretty much work in like fast food and make the same amount as an adjunct. The adjuncts need to, um, make work several jobs in order to just make ends meet. So it's like, oh, I have a PhD. I'm

teaching. I'm, I have this social, this status as a professor, but I'm not making the income that comes along with that title. Because it's cheaper for a lot of universities to just hire adjuncts than to hire people full time and, you know, salaries, benefits and things like that. And because so many more people are now getting degrees, there is an overabundance of people who are able to teach at the university level. So it's like very competitive. So it even just depends, I say all that to say it even depends on Yeah, maybe a job might require a high level of or a certain amount of degrees, but is it worth it even with the salary outcomes? So the earning potential, the outdated information would be to like I said, it's not just go get a degree.

But what the degrees you get are in. mentor before just listening to their parents in the field or the industry that they're interested in getting into to see what the what type of advice they could get as far as guiding them to the right path, not just, oh, I got a degree. I can easily tap into this industry. You need to know from an expert what is required before entering into higher education. And I think the other thing that, you know, you've probably been seeing, too, is a lot of people get these degrees and then don't really know actually what it like the actual industry that they want to enter in or what the jobs could be. And they realize, actually, I hate it.

I know so many people. They're like, I did part of my law degree. And then I realize like I have a friend. She did, I think, half of her law degree and realized, actually, I hate this. And then she worked in, you know, law in a different format. We used to work together. And that now she's in fitness and running a successful fitness company. And so sometimes it's like, we don't even take the time to realize, do I even want that job before diving into it? That's why I'm in finance now. Yeah, you know, it's interesting. My best friend,

he's an attorney, been an attorney for years. He's changing into health and wellness because he's like, this is too stressful. And I was recently on another show and the host was saying, you know, the type of clients that you could really work well with are lawyers because he's an attorney himself. And he's like, I know so many people. They went to law school and then they started to practice law, and they hated it. And they want to pivot their careers. And I never, you know, I didn't know that so many people got into law and just decided, I guess I decided early that this just wasn't for me. When I saw those. You probably quite a bit of you did dodge a bullet.

That is so for sure. Yeah, I mean, so yeah, I mean, that's, I think a big mistake a lot of people are doing is getting I mean, and that was the advice I got from my mom, because it's like, I'm me and my sisters are the first people in our family to to get higher education to get degrees. And so it was really important for, you know, our family. But we were kind of told just get any degree doesn't matter as long as you have it, because that was true back in their day. Exactly. For us, not so true. But besides that, like, let's talk a little bit more about those skills. Like one thing that was a big, interesting realization over the years is, you know, I thought I did the smart thing getting my degree. And now 10 years later, so I, my husband, he has a lot of friends who are blue collar workers, you know, electricians and elevator repairmen and people like that. They are very much like they're doing great. They're actually doing way better than me and my husband financially, because a they didn't spend four or five years getting a degree and spending all that money. They went right into the workforce, built up those skills, built up their business, started investing in real estate, because they had this money to do so. And they're doing just fine. But that was and you talk about

this in your book, which I thought was so interesting. We used to think like I used to think that if you were a blue collar worker, if you went into the trades or whatever, you know, it wasn't a good path that you would earn less that it wasn't a proper career. And so I never even thought about that as an option. And I think a lot of people don't even though you could actually be making more money and have a better career. Do you want to kind of speak to that? Just getting rid of some of these. I know you talk about in your book changing your mind about a lot of things. Yes.

Like I've told the story in the book about the plumber friend of mine when we were in school, you know, high school, senior year, about to graduate. Teacher asks all of us, oh, what are you going to do? What are you going to do? And we are all talking about, oh, we're going to college. We're going to become a lawyer, a nurse, a doctor, us oh what are you going to do what are you going to do and we are all talking about oh we're going to college we're going to become a lawyer a nurse a doctor teacher what have you get to him he's like i'm just you know go and get a plumber uh certificate certification trade school and he's like stop playing you know don't don't say that and it was mind-boggling to this teacher that someone, especially in my generation, would say, oh, I just want to be a plumber because everyone was told you got to go to school. And he didn't believe him until my friend and I said, hey, no, he's discussed this with us before.

We've been encouraging him. He's seen his uncle make a good amount of money being a plumber having his own business and so that's what he aspires to do um and unfortunately we've devalued like the importance or the value of those roles and not everybody wants to be a white collar worker or you know um we also don't need a million lawyers or doctors or teachers like we actually need plumbers. Everyone needs a plumber. Exactly. Everybody. So and there are many other trade jobs that are even technical related or engineer related that don't require a four year degree. They might require a trade school certificate or community college, a degree, a degree that don't require a lot of time, nor do they require the amount of money to be spent to obtain those degrees or certifications, credentials or what have you. So, you know, it's unfortunate that that outdated information that we're getting, it actually created the overabundance of people getting degrees. Now the degrees are becoming devalued. So it's ironic, you know, they're like,

oh, no, you better get it because and then it's like, okay, now there are a million people who have these degrees in one area, one are looking for one job, and they're competing against each other, and they don't have the skills to do something else. So oftentimes, people say to me, well, you might it might have been easier for me, you know, having a PhD to kind of figure out a way to repurpose my education and tap into other industries. And I say to them, actually, it's probably easier for you because, one, I had such a tunnel vision thinking I spent a lot of time wasted thinking I have to go in line with what I have degrees in. Nobody's hiring me. What am I going to do? Whereas someone who doesn't have all of that, you know, to prove or what have you, they just hit the ground running. I've seen so many people who don't have degrees that are millionaires, successful entrepreneurs, because

they just knew how to use those skills, whatever they are in whatever industry and just hit the ground running. I often encounter people like myself who are just so stuck in, oh, I must, you know, work in this field or this industry, because this is what I'm credentialed in, and they don't see outside of the box. I mean, that was for sure my experience. I always thought that I needed to figure out a way to make film work or work in the arts you know you know some because I'm like I don't want you know this whole degree to go to waste but it always didn't feel like it really fit right um and then I'm like okay I can

do marketing it's sort of similar we can kind of get those skills while working and I did but then when I you know ultimately my my heart was like you should work in personal finance and education because you really love that. It was very hard for me to change my mindset because it is literally the polar opposite of what I did my education in. And also, you know, it's like, well, I'm not good at math and all this kind of stuff. And so it was really hard. But then, you know, then you just do it. You know, I took one course to see if I could pass. I passed.

And then you just kind of baby steps a little bit. And there's so many people my age, honestly, I'd say I don't know many people that I kind of same age with that time, we waited until our late 20s, early 30s to make that pivot, which when you think about it, you're like, what a bunch of wasted time when we could have just been like, we should have listened to our instincts earlier and just made those changes earlier. So then we could be on that path earlier. But it's hard to make that change, isn't it? Exactly. Yeah, definitely. So let's talk a little bit about because I know one thing, you know, people listening are like, well, okay, it's either too late for me, I already got the degree or, or I'm doing my degree, maybe I'm near the end of it. I can't, you know, I don't want to dump it. I don't want to stop it. Maybe I want, you know, I've got one year left, let's just finish the thing. You talk a lot about

in your book about how important it is to get to start before you finish your degree, and to get those skills while in school. I feel like I tried a little bit to do that, but I feel like a lot of skills I got, you know, like I worked on film sets or I tried to do some video editing. I wish I honestly focused on getting some skills outside of, you know, my degree, like things that were maybe more applicable that would have been a little bit easier for me. And I know you shared some great stories in your book about there's a bunch of students who were in different degrees, maybe liberal arts and stuff like that. And then they kind of created a collective where someone

was a barber and offering services to students and when someone was cooking meals and selling those and, you know, just kind of dabbling into entrepreneurship, but they actually never thought that, oh, we're honing skills so we can have future careers in these. We're like, oh, we're just having fun and making some extra money. But I'm like, I would have never thought to even really do that, to even set up, you know, because I did have schools and everyone has some sort of skills and someone's probably looking for those skills. So do you want to kind of speak to why it's important to start before you're ready and to dabble in other things outside of maybe your main education? Right. So to the first question about

not dumping it. So the dump your degree is to get your attention. If you don't want to throw it in the trash, that's not what I'm telling you to do. I just want you to not focus so solely on it, right? Because so many people are like, I have a degree in this, I must work in that. I don't want you to do that because then you'll get stuck in a box and then you won't see the opportunities that are all around you that you might be able to transfer the knowledge even that you acquired from that degree and put it in a different way and make, you know, and make a whole different career out of it. So there's that. Like, don't don't just drop out. I'm not I'm not recommending people just drop out. But if you want to, and that's your because I've actually met some Gen Z's that I've mentored or connected with. They're like, I just dropped out and they're doing well. But you know, I get parents, they're like, you don't tell people to drop out. I'm like,

I'm not saying that, but whatever. You choose the path that's best for you. But that being said, starting before you finish, I am so proud. My mom even joked with me about how a few of my mentees, they went on to get jobs or create careers that paid them more than I was making as a professor. My mom was like, how are your mentees making more than you? And I'm like, look, I'm proud of them. Like even you, you reminding me of the story that I mentioned about that collective, even one of the guy that was cooking. Just I saw recently on social media, he updated that he just got a contract in a football stadium. I'm like, he's gone from cooking those. Yeah, he's, he's doing really, really good. And I'm so proud of them. And so they inspired me while I was teaching them, I literally would go to they rented these

apartments, and I would go and say, Hey, what are y'all doing? If I needed my computer fixed, or some software put on, I would support their, you know, their business. If I needed my hair done, I'd go up to their little shop, you know, so andling into things, because it's easier now when you don't have the responsibilities of a family or bills, you know, where you can try out things while you're in college. So and then you have the support of your peers around you. If you want to sell things or try out products or create create an app or what have you, you have a whole community of people on your campus that could be your first, you know, customers or clients, buyers. You can see if you like it now before you graduate and try to start

a business and it might not be the thing that you're interested in. But college is the best time to start and get those skills. Also, it helps you to use those skills in the job market. So if you don't want to become an entrepreneur, but you do want to get into, you know, the job market and secure your dream job, you are developing not only your skills, but your resume. Because you can put a lot of these things on your resume to show that you've had certain experiences that would benefit or be an asset to, you know, whatever company you're working for. Absolutely. And I know another really key thing besides getting these skills, because that's what sets you apart. Everyone has the same degree these days, what's going to set you apart is like those extra kind of things you can put on your resume. But the other important thing that again, I feel like we were told about it, but we weren't really, I think, given the tools to actually figure out how to network to to socialize, to meet a mentor, for example. That is the key. I mean,

for me, I did a little bit of that. I mean, one of my professors actually helped me get my first job. It was just a four-month contract, but it actually was the thing that made me realize I don't think I actually want to work in film, but it was a great job at the time. But after that, and then, you know, I just kind of started tapping some other networks and meet and I had meetings with people. When I look back, I'm like, wow, it's actually pretty, you know, I actually went out there and I'm like a super shy introvert most of the time, but I actually went out there because again, it was like 2009 2010. It was you're like, you're just grinding, you need to find anything. And so I'm meeting people and having coffee meetings and stuff like that. But I know there's so many things that I probably didn't do that I

could do. And now things are so much different now with, you know, access to people online and things like that. So if someone wants to kind of start building that network, even finding a mentor, where should they start? Well, they should start with who they know. I mean, you never know. I think people overlook, they're like, Oh, this is just my family. My, you know, your cousin could work for or with somebody. You just never know who is who. I remember when I was challenged to find work, I tapped into my family first and then friends, of course, letting them know I'm looking. And or say, for instance, you see positions that you're interested in and thinking about, okay, who do I know that might be connected to that company or that and reach out to them? A lot of times people say, oh, I want to get it on my own merit. I don't want to

listen. The world works about who you know more than what you know. I mean, I'm not saying that, you know, people should just use nepotism or whatever to get in the door. They suck at their job. No, you should have the skills to do the work. But in order to get your foot in the door, tap into your resources. So family, friends. And I also tell people, just because you're in college and your friend is in college, that doesn't mean that they don't have resources or connections somewhere. They might have a relative themselves that could give you an internship or what have you. So tap into your resources, even your social media network, particularly places like LinkedIn.

Of course, get on LinkedIn. I see a lot of young people who are in like high school, college. They're not on there as much, but I do see it growing. I recently saw a young lady, I don't know who she is, but she's in high school in somewhere in California. And I don't know how her post came through my feed. I guess you know how LinkedIn works where somebody will like it, you see it and blah, blah, blah. So she basically says, hey, I'm a high school student. I'm new to LinkedIn. And just saying, you know, she didn't really talk much about like her aspirations for her career, but just letting people know she's new here and she wants to benefit from LinkedIn.

I don't know her from anywhere, but I reached out to her. I think she was also saying, okay, if anyone wanted to connect, and I said, hey, if there's any way I can add value to you, let me know. And she's a high school student, right? And I did that because, of course, I have a passion for helping, you know, students be successful in their career. But her just putting herself out there, it attracted people to want to reach out and to help her. So when she's looking for mentorship, she now has a pool to draw from if people to ask or to communicate with. So putting yourself out there on like social media platforms like LinkedIn and even creating content or

marketing yourself in other ways on TikTok, on Instagram, those things could help you because you never know who's watching. Of course, make it meaningful, you know, not just with anything, but those are the ways. But also tapping into your alumni networks, even before you graduate, seeing what alumni are out there on places like LinkedIn or through your school, you know, maybe they have a platform and seeing what roles they're in and saying, hey, I aspire to be in, you know, this role. You know, I'm finishing up my degree in X, Y, and Z. Would you mind if I asked you a few questions or what have you? Things like that. Just start building those connections and communication long before you graduate,

because that will help you in the long run. No, absolutely. And I think, you know, kind of sharing a little bit more, because you mentioned LinkedIn and how powerful social media can now be, because it really didn't exist when I was, you know, you know, finished school. And it's such a powerful tool that can be used, you know, for not just, you know, fun or, you know, influencers or whatever. It's like, you can find jobs this way. You can find, you know, people who are recruiters this way. And I know you also talk about the book and how to be sought after. And like, for me in my business, that's one thing that I learned over the years is like, I see other people get, you know, certain partnerships with brands or

speaking gigs, like, how do I get that? And sometimes it's literally about setting yourself up. So you were findable online, that is very clear who you are, what you do, and why someone would want to partner with you or work with you. And those are very easy things that you can set up yourself. Because that's the thing. It's like, I know lots of people, and you mentioned in your book, you knew someone who was like, I'm getting so many recruiters asked me to work for them. I don't even know what to do with all these job offers. And then there's people that are like, I wish I got that had that problem. Right? What is one, you know, a couple of things that people can do to set themselves up so they are findable so that recruiters are like,

oh, I want to reach out to that person. Yeah. So I love how people are creating content on places like YouTube, even like YouTube shorts. Now So I love how people are creating content on places like YouTube, even like YouTube shorts. Now I love that putting yourself out there, having a website and it's so easy to do these things now, right? You can just build your own website, use one of those platforms, drag and drop, put a portfolio up depending on your field, right? Put things up on LinkedIn, as far as creating posts, content, sharing things that you've created or things you're interested in, questions you may have that will attract people to your page.

Um, and you know, like I mentioned before, TikTok, I've even like reach, I've had people reach out to me by finding me on social media. There were things that I didn't even know I was in like articles. I would check my Instagram and somebody, I just read what you said and you know, whatever. And I'm like, wow, that's out there. Thanks for letting me know. Like I didn't know, but because I was constantly putting myself out there in different avenues, it allowed for people to find me without me looking for them. And that can be done whether you're a brand or just a person who's looking for work. Putting yourself out there, letting people know this is what you're interested in, reaching

out to people actually will keep you in their mind. Like, so if something, an opportunity comes down the road, then, oh, I remember that one person who reached out to me. You know, you just never know. It might not be tomorrow, but you just putting yourself out there and engaging. And I know people are introverted. I joke and say I'm an introverted out extrovert because I present as an extrovert, but I really like want to be, you know, don't want to talk and what have you, but I have to do it for people to know who you are.

Recently, I came across some introvert pages like on like you are channels on YouTube. And I was like, this is very interesting. I saw someone because I get that question a lot like, well, what if someone is not as extroverted as you and they have a challenge, you know, putting themselves out there. But I've seen introverts, they're not necessarily engaging in the same ways, but they're still putting their content out so that people know who they are. So it's possible to, you know, put yourself out there, no matter your personality, no matter your background, just as long as you're putting things out there where people can now be attracted to you and what you have to offer. Absolutely. And one thing I really liked how you kind of this is kind of near the end of

your book is you really put a focus on the importance of setting goals. And again, that's something that I've been doing for years now. And it is one of those things where it's like, you know, people maybe make fun of vision boards, but they work, you know, and it's like, you know, you make fun of it if you have never tried it, right. And it's one of those things where, you know, if you feel like, gosh, this is not where I want to be in life. And believe me, everyone's going to feel like that or has felt like that at some point in their, their life or career. You know, it's as easy as really sitting down, getting clear on what do you actually want and being honest with yourself. And that can be doing some soul searching and digging deep and getting real. And then really figuring out what are my goals and then your specific action steps.

And for me, because I think when we think about especially making a big pivot, whether it's like I want to do a totally different career than my education or I'm midway through my degree and I hate it, what do I do? It can seem like the biggest thing. It's almost impossible to digest or to even acknowledge. And so to get really specific and kind of categorize things and just like make things really micro. I mean, that's, that's what helped me, I think, ultimately make the decision to leave my last job in marketing to do, you know, a crazy, scary thing and start my own business where literally no one in my family

is an entrepreneur. And so I was told this is a bad idea. It's big. And I appreciate you talking about that in your book. It's like, I got a lot of people saying that's a big risk. Like you may lose all your money, you may never get a job again, if you're self employed for a while, and doesn't work out, and then no one wants to hire you all these things. And I did it anyway. But a lot of it had to do with getting clear on what I wanted. And then doing A, B, C, and D, you want to kind of speak to what are some of the key ways for if someone wants to like maybe make a change, or they don't know how, how to get really precise on how to move forward? Well, as you mentioned, you know, putting it down, a lot of times people talk about, like I

was saying in my book, like, people say, Oh, I want to do this, or I'm about to do this. And I'm about to do that. And they talk about it so much, they don't write it down, it never becomes a reality, because they don't put their attention to it. It's just a hope. It's just a wish. Oh, you know. But if you actually plan and map out. And of course, there might be pivots and shifts and changes where it might not look exactly, you know, like you had hoped.

And it would look like in the end, a lot of times it's actually better once you've accomplished it. But just putting it what your your goal is down and taking those steps. And like you mentioned, people joke about vision boards like it might be woo woo, you know, if it's whatever. But the point is, though, you're focused your attention on something. So it gives you the motivation and drive towards it. Right. So then you start to say, OK, you know what? This is something that I said that I want. How do I get there or how do I take those steps to get there? And it could just be, OK, today I'm going to do this. And you'll notice that things start to unfold after that.

You might just go down a rabbit hole of, oh, wow, I didn't know the steps to take to get to this end point. But just starting allowed me to kind of see things start to unfold. So making sure that you have goals that are, are people say realistic, but I would say push yourself beyond just realistic, because you never know, you know, what you can attain. Also making sure that you set a timeline because a lot of times when we have goals, we're like, oh, I want this, but okay, well, when are you going to want to accomplish that? Is it in a month? Is it in six months, you know, 12 months, two years, have like an idea of what it is that you want. And a lot of times when people are saying that there it's too risky, or, you know, I don't want to make that shift. Sometimes where you are now,

you can start to make those baby steps. So where whether it's, I don't want to quit my job immediately, you can start to save in a way that will allow you to have that cushion or that support so that when you do decide to resign that you're not feeling like, oh, I'm going to be homeless tomorrow. It's taking those steps and mapping them out so it suits you the best, but also keeping in mind sometimes you just have to take that risk and just jump. No, and No. And also I, you wrote too, and I think this is so important. This is actually something I think I want to work on today because we think about, you know, what we want to achieve in the future as a big risk, but we often forget about the risks that we've taken that have paid off. We immediately think

of all of our failures, but we rarely think about the things that we did and they worked out, even if they're small, because they do compound, all these small little things can actually add up to a big life change. So I think that's such a key thing too, is taking a look at what have you done in the past that you thought was, oh, that's a bit crazy, or I don't know if this is going to work out and actually ended on a positive thing or it was successful. Cause that will then give you, I think that evidence that guess what? Sometimes risks actually do work out. I feel like in general in my life experience you were more often likely to succeed than fail but often we think oh there's a 99% failure rate and a 1% chance that it'll actually work out no I exactly I listen I'm a big risk taker and I've since I've become a mom though I've been like oh I was a little crazy

back there because I would just go to foreign countries by myself and back, you know, do stuff, backpack and all that. But now I've become a little bit more cautious, but I was just telling my husband recently, I was like, you know what? I can do this as a mom. Like we can do this as a collective. I can see how I can draw from my past experiences and make this work as well in this experience. So, yes, you're right. A lot of times we think of things as it's going to fail or we hear those negative comments from others because they haven't tried it. So they're like, oh, no, most businesses fail in their first year. OK, but can you tell me the statistics of those that succeed?

You know, and can we look at it from that view instead of the negative view? And like you, like, like I mentioned in the book, as you said, if we look at our past to see what we were successful at, there are so many things that we have tried that did succeed, you know, that kind of paint that picture that we can do it in the future. And I don't know what causes us to kind of shift as we get older, get a little bit more cautious, but for those who are risk takers continue, but those who are a little bit too cautious and they're not living the life that they dreamed about or feel like they're not living fully. There are things that you can look back in your life and see

how successfully it ended up and use that to determine your future as well. Absolutely, absolutely. Well, there's obviously so many great tidbits and pieces of advice in your book, Dump Your Degree. Where can people grab a copy of it and also follow you on social media or get in touch with you? Yes. It's pretty much everywhere you can buy books. Amazon number, you know, as far as the number one place to buy books, but Barnes and Noble, Books a Million, Walmart, what have you, Apple Books. It's also available on my website at ZakiyaAkarele.com and also on DumpYourDegree.com. Perfect. And oh, sorry. My social media is Facebook, Instagram and TikTok are all at Zakiya Acarelli.

Amazing. I'm going to follow you on TikTok. Okay, sure. I want to see what's going on there. I need to put some more content out though. Oh, me too. Me too. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to be on the show and sharing all of your wisdom, especially someone who's not only lived all this experience, but also you're an educator. So you've seen it from so many different perspectives. So I really appreciate you coming on the show. Thank you. Thank you for having me. I enjoyed our conversation. And that was episode 341 of the More Money Podcast with Dr. Zakiya Akareli. Make sure to check her out. Here's a

few websites you can find her at dumpyourdegree.com, zakiyaakirele.com, and her name is spelled Z-A-K-I-Y-A-K-E-R-E-L-E. I mean, I don't know why I spelled that out. You can probably see that on the app that you're listening to, but hey, just going to spell that out for you. You can also find her on Instagram at Zakiya Akareli as well. But a great place where you can find all of the links because also she has a TikTok and a Facebook and LinkedIn and she has a bunch of other resources you're going to want to check out. Check out the show notes for this episode, jessicamorehouse.com slash 341, jessicamorehouse.com slash 341. Or you can find the show notes for any episode I've ever done on my website at jessicamorehouse.com slash podcast. And of course, make sure to grab a copy of her book, Dump Your Degree. And yes,

I will be giving away a copy. I'm going to share some information about how to enter to win her book and some other books in just a moment. Here's just a few words I'm going to share some information about how to enter to win her book and some other books in just a moment. Here's just a few words I want to share about this season's podcast sponsor. This episode of the More Money Podcast is supported by Desjardins. Do you feel valued at your financial institution? Because Desjardins is on a mission to enrich the lives of Canadians, help build stronger communities, and educate its members so they can confidently reach their financial goals. Not only do they offer one-of-a-kind customer care and offer a variety of financial services to fit your needs, as a cooperative, they put their members first. So if you're looking for an institution that's making an impact,

look no further than Desjardins. To learn more about Desjardins and how they're making a difference, visit Desjardins.com. All right, first and foremost, if you want to win a copy of her book, Dump Your Degree, all you have to do is go to, well, you can go to the show notes, there's a link in there, or you can go to JessicaMorehouse.com slash contest. And once you get to that page, you'll also see I'm giving away a bunch of other books that you will also probably want to enter to win. So I am currently also giving away a copy of Untying the Knot by Kelly LaVallee, who was recently on the show, Seen, Heard, and Paid by Alan Henry, The Bogle Effect by Eric Balchunas, and Becoming Superwoman by Nicole Lappin. So make sure to go to

jessicamorhouse.com slash contest to check out all those books and, you know, see, maybe you'll have some good luck and win one of these copies. Honestly, looking at the numbers, not as many people enter them as you probably suspect. So you actually have a really good chance of winning one of these copies. Speaking of books, because I feel like lately, I've been getting a lot of questions about, hey, what are some great book recommendations? Well, if you go to my website, jessicamorhez.com, and if you go to My Favorite Things, which is one of the main navigations on there in the main menu, that well, it's a great page, it has all my favorite things, including books that you should read. And I'm even so nice and organized that I organize these books based off like if they're from a UK author, US author or Canadian author in case you want something specific. So make sure to

check that out. I also have like a bunch of other resources and favorite things listed on the page, including because I also get lots of questions like all the time about this. If you're looking for a fee only financial planner or an accountant or a bookkeeper or investment coach, whatever, I've got a bunch of them listed on my website. Obviously, they're all Canadian, but check them out. JessicaMorehouse.com slash favorite dash things and favorite spelled the Canadian way with a U. Okay, so some other things I'd like to share just an FYI, because this is we're getting close to the end of the year. And if you have this on your goals list, well, there's still time to do it. And I'm talking about if you had it on your goals list or your your New Year's resolutions to learn about investing this year,

or do something different with your investments, because maybe they're with the bank and they're in high fee mutual funds, which suck. You know, there's never been a better time than the present to learn what you don't know. So you may want to check out my Wealth Building Blueprint for Canadians course. Obviously, it's just for Canadians. It is about passive investing, so index investing and all the information you can find on my website, jessicamorehouse.com slash course. It is by application only. If you are approved, then you have a call with me so we can discuss if it is a good fit for you. You can ask me any questions you have about the course. But, you know, it's, if I do say so myself, a pretty damn great course. Yeah, you can read all the testimonials from past students. And it's not just a course where it's like, all right, I learned it. Now

we're done. It really is a community, which is really exciting. There's a very active Facebook group. I do bi-weekly kind of office hours, Zoom call, group call, where you can join in and chat with other people. And we have a great discussion. Lots of great stuff in this course. You can find more information about that at jessicamorehouse.com slash course. And last but not least, a reminder, I do have a second podcast. It is called Clean Slate. It is something that I did over the summer, recorded it in secret in July, which was really exciting in partnership with CBC and Desjardins. And you can find all the episodes at cbc.ca slash clean dash slate. Again, it's also just linked in the show notes for this episode, jessicamorehouse.com slash 341. But it's not just a podcast, it's a video podcast. So you can also see me in action interviewing the guests that I

was lucky to interview. So make sure to check that out. And lastly, lastly, if that wasn't enough, I've got a bonus episode for you tomorrow. And you're going to definitely want to tune in because we're going to be talking about inflation, interest rates, cost of living and what the heck we can do about it. I know that has been like the topic of the year. So make sure to check back in with a special bonus episode tomorrow. Big shout out to my wonderful podcast editor Matt Rideout. And with that, have a good rest of your day. See you back here bright and early tomorrow. This podcast is distributed by the Women in Media Podcast Network.

Find out more at womeninmedia.network.