More Money Podcast - 345 One Investment for Life - Myron Genyk, Co-Founder and CEO of Evermore Capital

Episode Date: November 16, 2022

Often I find people are hesitant to start investing because it seems overwhelming, complicated, and like you have to start day trading like all those for investing bros on TikTok. But that couldn’t be further from the truth! Investing is for everyone and can be as complex or as simple as you want it to be. My guest today, Myron Genyk from Evermore Capital, shares these same sentiments and is on the show to discuss investing for your future made simple. Myron Genyk is the Co-Founder and CEO of Evermore Capital, a new Canadian asset management company that introduced the first and only target date ETF series for self-directed Canadian investors. In this episode, Myron shares what Evermore Capital is doing differently, why he’s passionate about Canadians investing for retirement, and how to not get rattled when the market is down. Myron is also sharing why Canada always seems to be behind when it comes to our investment options and how we can combat that. For full episode show notes visit: https://jessicamoorhouse.com/345 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello, and welcome back to the More Money Podcast. My name is Jessica Morehouse, and I host this show. And this is episode 345 of the podcast. And we're talking investing this episode, and you're going to love this episode. We go deep. If you're really into this stuff, you're going to love this episode. I've got Myron Genick on the show. He is the CEO and co-founder of Evermore Capital, which is a new Canadian asset management company that introduced the first and only target date ETF series aimed at retirement in Canada, which are called Evermore Retirement ETFs. The Evermore Retirement ETFs are a low-fee, one-stop solution created specifically to make investing for retirement easy and more accessible for everyday Canadians. And we're going to get into this because this is a very specific type

of investment product. I really like it because it has been around in the US. It's a bit more accessible there because they just have more stuff there, right? But target date funds, like typically mutual funds, they've been around in Canada for a while, but not usually accessible for just individuals like you and me who want to invest. Usually they're only available or accessible through like your defined contribution pension plan or group RRSP. But now you can do it on your own. So that's very exciting. I mean, I thought the development or that the launch of asset allocation ETFs a few years back was like groundbreaking. This is kind of that next level to make investing even easier because investing should be easy. It should not

be so hard. You shouldn't have to feel like, oh, I have no idea what I'm doing. I'm just going to hire that advisor or this wealth management firm to do it for me. I just can't handle it. You can handle it. You can. Because once you understand how it all works, not only will you just be a more confident and savvy investor, and I think we all should be because it's our money and no one cares more about our money than we do. Though that advisor

definitely cares about your money in terms of how much it'll make them. But it's really not rocket science. Like it doesn't have to be. I always tell people investing can be as complex as you want it. But honestly, most of that complex stuff, you don't need to touch it. You don't need to bother with learning how to stock pick or how to use, you know, need to touch it. You don't need to bother with learning how to stock pick or how to use, you know, call options and derivatives. You don't have to touch any of that crap. Honestly, if you want to just build wealth to reach your goals, like retirement, something like a ETF, an index based ETF will do the trick. But with that, there's still some things that you know, we need we need, right? You can't just invest in one ETF and good to go, though, maybe with these targeted

ETFs, you can because it has a bunch of different ETFs in there. You still need to put your eggs in lots of different baskets, you need to make sure you're diversified, and you're really clear on where your money's going. And so we're going to talk about all of this in this episode. So you're really clear on where your money's going. And so we're going to talk about all of this in this episode. So you're going to love it. But before I get to that interview with Myron, here's just a few words I want to share about this season's podcast sponsor. This episode of the More Money Podcast is supported by Desjardins. Does your financial institution share your values? Because Desjardins is about more than just money. They are on a mission to enrich people's lives and improve the economic and social well-being of Canadians everywhere. Desjardins' main goal as a cooperative is to support its members and make a positive impact

on their communities by providing exceptional customer care, offering a variety of financial services, and above all, listening to its members. They've also been at the forefront of sustainable investing as one of the first financial institutions to offer responsible investment portfolios. To learn more about Desjardins and how they're a cooperative making a difference, visit Desjardins.com. Welcome, Myron, to the More Money Podcast. I'm so excited to have you on the show. Thanks, Jessica. So happy to be here. Absolutely. So we've got a lot to talk about. I'm really excited to have you on the show. Thanks, Jessica. So happy to be here. Absolutely. So we've got a lot to talk about. I'm really excited to have you on the show because I did a video about these target date ETFs that Evermore has, and I get lots of great questions. So I've got a lot of questions to ask you

that people want to know. But before we really dive in, tell me a little bit about yourself. You're the CEO and co-founder of Evermore Capital. What inspired you to co-found this company? What brought you into this role? Sure. So I've been working in the banking industry for the better part of a bit over 15 years now. And most of my work when I was at one of the larger banks was in the derivatives group. Now, the work that I did in the derivatives group wasn't what you would normally think. It was more we were the counterparty to ETFs. So I've been working basically in ETFs since about 2007. And it was through that exposure that I got to work on a lot of cool things. My background, I went to school for math, stats, and economics.

And then I did a graduate degree in applied statistics and another one in financial engineering. And so based on that, it was a very quantitative background. And so that's usually the roadmap to how you get hired on a derivatives desk. And so it was a great experience. I loved it. I got to use a lot of the stuff that I learned in school that a lot of people outside of banking might not be familiar with. But when you're coming up with new and innovative types of derivatives that either the bank issues or that the bank's clients issue or it's wrapped as part of a greater package. And so I spent a lot of time working on these kinds of products and it really engaged the analytical part of my brain, but also the creative side of

my brain. And so I loved the job and I loved what I was doing. In around 2016, I left the bank and I decided to take a bit of a sabbatical from Bay Street. So I decided to do a few things. The first thing was I had a bunch of family and friends who over the years, they came to me asking for help and guidance on how to manage their own portfolios. Some of them were younger, they were just starting working and they had new money that they didn't quite know how to deploy or what kinds of accounts to set up. And then there were other friends and family who were older than me, who've had an advisor for many years, and they weren't happy with the value that they were getting from the advisor and the fees that they were paying. So they wanted to manage their own assets and they needed help getting started with that. So what I realized was despite the fact that

I worked in a pretty complicated area of Bay Street, working in derivatives, and I knew how a lot of these interesting, bespoke, funky investments worked, I found that what I was suggesting to people were these baskets of broad index, low fee ETFs. It was really simple to manage. Again, this was around 2016, 2017. So Vanguard hadn't yet come out with their asset allocation ETFs. So you kind of had to do this on your own. So what I suggested was you need equity ETFs, Canada, US, international, and you need some bond ETFs too, depending on your age. And so coming up with these, you know, people call them model ETF portfolios, but so that's what I was suggesting to people and it was great. And they were happy with it. So

they were able to deploy it on their own. And for a lot of people, they weren't quite sure how to enter orders and, you know, what's the difference between a market order and a limit order. So going through all that with them as well. But what I would find was, you know, what's the difference between a market order and a limit order? So going through all that with them as well. But what I would find was, you know, after six months, 12 months, 18 months, as these people had new money to invest, they would say, OK, well, what should I put it in now? And so the question wasn't so much on how do brokerage accounts work or, you know, what's an ETF? It came down to more asset allocation. And I tried to give guide posts and, you know, you know, here are some, you know, books you can read or blogs you can read or, you know, our own personal conversations. But I found that there

was this insecurity around asset allocation. Now, it was around this time that Vanguard came out with its asset allocation ETFs and then followed quickly by BMO and iShares as well. So, I mean, those are natural products to suggest that somebody buys, especially somebody who is not comfortable with a spreadsheet and doesn't want to figure out, like, what percentage of, you know, Canadian equities do they have relative to everything else. These are great, you know, one-stop shop, buy and hold. You don't really have to think about it too much. But again, you know, as great as those are, and those are really, really great products, the question then arises, well, should I be 80-20 or should I be 60-40 or should I own a little bit of both? Or like, maybe I should be 40-60 because I'm like, maybe I should be 40, 60, because I'm like, really, like, not sure about the stock market at this time. And so it was over this period where I'm like, okay, there isn't a great, I mean, asset allocation ETFs were a huge advancement. But what we needed was the final thing, especially when it came to retirement investing. And, you know, so people have all kinds of different goals, whether it's, you know, RS, their children's education or saving for a down

payment or a second home. But the goal that most Canadians share, you know, whether you're married or not, or whatever, regardless of your income or how many kids you have, is everybody wants to retire at some point. And that's a goal that everybody has. And there was no great product dedicated specifically for the goal of retirement investing. Canada does have target date mutual funds, but those are generally at a pretty high fee. I remember looking a while ago and the average MER on those was over 2%. Sorry, the average fee on those was over 2%. And so that can significantly eat into your retirement nest egg. And so it was based on that, you know, that Canadians need a one-stop shop for retirement investing. Not all Canadians need this. Some Canadians love to manage a portfolio of ETFs, or if they're higher net worth, they love managing a portfolio of stocks

and bonds or whatever else. But I think for the majority of Canadians, what they really need is they just need something really simple that's going to be low fee that they will feel comfortable and confident that it'll do the job that it's supposed to do. Yeah, absolutely. I know, you know, I've had lots of conversations with people over the years about, you know, just kind of what you shared, like, pretty much. I mean, that's how I invest. I do goring index funds. And that's usually what I think is a good product for most people that don't I mean, most Canadians, yeah, they just want something simple because they don't have time to be, you know, learning how to look at stock charts or, you know, or getting into derivatives. I don't think most people need to do that to retire one day.

But yeah, like you said, Canada is just slow to progress in terms of their offerings. It's so annoying for so many years looking at the states and like, oh, they have all these all these products and they're the first to come out with robo-advisors and all these kinds of things. I'm like, oh gosh, we always have to wait for things. So it was nice to see that you also noticed this and then came up with a solution. Because yeah, I'm a big fan of asset allocation ETFs. But yeah, there are some things that will come up. For example, they are limited in that there's not that many options in terms of asset allocation. So one thing I see a lot of people do if they want to kind of customize it as doing an all equity asset allocation ETF and then adding in a couple bond ETFs, but then you're stuck with the rebalancing yourself and the spreadsheets

and all that kind of stuff. And it's also like, I just want to kind of set it and forget it kind of thing. And there really wasn't anything. Because even if you are in the right asset allocation ETF for you, you still have to get out of it at a certain point to get into maybe something more conservative as you get closer to your target date. So I guess that's kind of the element that these target date ETFs have is the glide path. So I kind of want to talk about that because I get lots of questions about that. A lot of people that are maybe doing the DIY thing, they get stuck at that point. When do I know when to change the risk level of my portfolio? How do I know when it's the time with these ETFs that you have at Evermore? They just do it automatically.

So I'm curious, how did you determine when is the right time? How did you kind of build these glide paths for these ETFs? Sure. Okay. So I'm going to try to avoid any technical jargon when I do this. It's okay to use technical jargon. We can just translate it. People will know it. You bet. So, um, okay. So it was a four step process. So, um, the first step was, well, I guess there was a zero. There was a step before the

four steps and that was figuring out. And all these steps were not done in a linear fashion. They were kind of, you know, we do one, then we do another, then we'd go back because there was a lot of, it was a bit cyclical or recursive. But the first thing we did was what assets do we want to have in these funds? Do we want just stocks and just bonds or do we want anything else? And we always had that in mind at every step in the process because maybe we want to have something else. Maybe, you know, everything was on the table. Like were you thinking like gold and REITs and stuff like that? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, everything was on the table. Like gold and REITs and stuff like

that? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Gold was on the table. You know, short term bonds, inflation bonds, you know, even cryptocurrencies, just for sake of discussion. You know, I'm not going to say no to anything like let's let's talk it out. And and so and again, this was a bit recursive. So, you know, we had stuff and then we took stuff off the table. But I mean, the only assets that we were really only seriously considering were broad index stocks, broad based bond ETFs, and also short term bonds, which we actually didn't end up including for reasons that I can get into later. So that was really the first thing was, OK, we're going to have equity exposure and fixed income exposure. And we're not going to have anything else for these products.

And then after that was, OK, well, geographic allocation. So within the equity component, how much Canada, how much US, how much international, how much emerging market. And what we did there was we got as much data as we could. And there's a lot of really interesting diversification and correlation effects that can happen. And what I'm talking specifically about here is something called mean variance optimization, which sounds really scary, but what it is, is for a given amount of risk, what's the combination of Canada, US, international and emerging market that will maximize my expected return? And some of these things correlate with

each other. When some markets are up or experiencing above normal returns, then other things might be, you know, slightly below their long-term average returns. And so you have this, and these geographies aren't perfectly correlated. And so you can use that to your advantage. And that's the fact that different geographies aren't perfectly correlated is why diversification is so great. It's a good thing. Yeah, absolutely. And so what we found doing that approach was that we ended up with 30% Canada, 45% US, 20% international, and 5% emerging market. And interestingly, we did this much after the fact, after we already settled on our portfolios. But we said, OK, well, for fun, let's look at the other asset allocation ETFs. What did VEQT and XEQT and ZEQT do?

And they all are, interestingly, it was really cool to see this, but they're all on what's called an efficient frontier. So for a given amount of risk, they're maximizing their returns. So they had obviously gone through the process themselves. Some have higher risk, higher return, and some are lower risk, lower return. And where ours came in was pretty close to where Vanguard's happened to be. And so that's where we landed on the equity one. Then on the fixed income side, it was the same thing. So what's the universe of combinations of Canada, US international, and emerging markets

that are efficient portfolios. And then also which efficient portfolio has the least correlation or is maybe negatively correlated to stocks. Because the purpose of the bond component, we can talk about the purpose of the stock and the bond components, which is in itself interesting when we talk about the glide path. But we wanted the fixed income part to be as negatively correlated as possible to the stocks. You want it to kind of dampen out any sort of equity volatility or equity downside you want your bonds to be up, which hasn't been happening this year. Kind of a different experience than usual, but still in the long run, that typically happens. And so what we found was that combination, 60% Canada, 30% US, 10% international, and interestingly, 0% emerging market. And I think part of that reason is that emerging market bonds tend to sell off during an

equity sell-off. They're more risk instruments. So that's how we landed on our geographical allocations within equities and within fixed income. Then the next part, and again, this was all iterative and sometimes, you know, we might go back a few steps, but the next part was figuring out, okay, what's the glide path? This was, you know, this is the thing. So what we did here was there's something called Monte Carlo simulation, which is just basically running a whole bunch of simulations. Now, simulations are generally only as good as the inputs that you put in. And so we did this for a whole bunch of different inputs. And our inputs or assumptions were classified into two different categories.

One is capital markets assumptions. So what's the expected return for each of these now seven different sub-asset classes, Canadian equity, US equity, et cetera. What's their expected volatility and how do they correlate with one another? So that's one set of assumptions. And then we looked at personal or investor assumptions. So, you know, what's the starting salary of a person and their

ending salary over time? What percentage of their gross income are they saving in retirement? How long are they living? How long are they working for? And then how long are they living in retirement? What's their replacement ratio? How much are they drying down over time? What's the inflation rate? Things of that nature. So using that, the personal investor characteristics, and then using the capital market assumptions, using that, we tested a bit over 10,000 different possible glide paths. And so every time we ran a set of assumptions, we'd run 10,000 different glide paths to see. And then we'd kind of, we'd rank them and kind of get an idea of which kind of glide paths are better and which are worse. And what do I mean by better or worse? For us, the most important thing

is not outliving your nest egg. That's got to be the number one thing. And so if you're, if you have, like, let's say, let's take the extreme where you're 100% in bonds, you're probably over the course of working for, say, 40 years, you're not going to grow your portfolio enough to get to that point where you have enough to last throughout your retirement. So being too conservative could be detrimental to your retirement. You might outlive your money. The same thing with being 100% equity 100% of your life, same thing. You might grow your portfolio to be a great amount or maybe not, but then you run the risk of drawing down your portfolio too quickly,

especially if there's a pullback in the equity market as you begin retirement. If you had the misfortune of being 100% equity in 2020 and the market's down 30%, now you're cashing out a huge portion of your portfolio, right? So you need to be somewhere between those two extremes. Now, maybe going back to why stocks are important and why bonds are important. So stocks are great because they have higher long-term expected returns. And in fact, as your time horizon increases 20, 30, 40 years, they're actually less risky in the very long run. So in a given year, stocks could be up or down 40%. You see these wild swings. And over two years, maybe they're up 25% or down 25% or somewhere in the middle.

But as you kind of zoom out and you look at how stocks done over any 20 or 30 or 40 year period, it's generally pretty consistently around 9 or 10 percent. It depends on the geography, but in the US and even in Canada, it's pretty much the same. Now, bonds, on the other hand, bonds kind of have a different risk return profile in the short term and in the long term. And so for growing your nest egg, they're not that great. They do dampen volatility and they do actually help to mitigate some behavioral tendencies that investors have. So, you know, when markets are down and if you're 100% stocks, you might be slightly more likely to be like, I'm out of here.

I'm cashing out. Yeah. And to the extent that you have any bonds, it's just your portfolio is down less than what you see on TV. So you feel a little like, okay, we can ride out this wave. This is okay. I'm not going to freak out. Yeah. That's right. And then as you approach retirement, you need to increase your weight to bonds and decrease your weight to equities. Just because if you have, it reduces your overall portfolio volatility, which is important when you enter into the drawdown period or the decumulation period of your life cycle.

And you're in retirement and now you need to draw down on your portfolio holdings to fund your retirement. And so high level, I mean, that's why a glide path is important. Now, at what rate do you glide and when do you start gliding and when do you level off? This is where all that Monte Carlo simulation came in handy. So again, over 10,000 different glide paths. We'd run it for one set of scenarios. Then we'd tweak some assumptions, run it again, look at that output, rank them. What are the characteristics of the glide paths that work?

And so in the end, we ran all kinds of different scenarios and all kinds of different capital market scenarios and all kinds of saving ratios while you're working and then spending in retirement, variable retirement. So not just the 4% rule or fixed dollar amount, but maybe it's a function of how equity markets work. And what we found was there were, the glide path that we eventually settled on was a glide path that worked well under most reasonable sets of assumptions. It doesn't, it's not the best one under all assumptions. I don't think, you know, having done the work, there is no optimal glide path under every single scenario. But the one that we landed on worked really well for many different sets of assumptions. And so that's why we landed on the glide path that we did. And then the fourth

stage, which again, was kind of iterative with security selection. So which ETFs do we actually hold for Canadian equity, US equity, and so on? Yeah, well, that was going to be my next question. Because, you know, so you, the portfolios that you created for these funds, they're a mix of, you know, Vanguard, iShares, and BMO. And I always kind of, yeah, look at other like people's model portfolios. And I'm always so curious, like, why did you choose Vanguard over iShares? Or BMO is always the one for bonds. Why is that? And so I'm curious, when you're making those selections, what Yeah, what was the kind of the logic or research behind that? Sure. So it was really tough. I mean, there are similar, they're very similar ETFs. So that's people get stuck. They're like, I don't

know which one should I choose? Like, it honestly probably won't make or break your life. So. Oh, completely. Yeah. So we were really getting into the weeds on these ones. I mean, first of all, there were all kinds of ETFs that we could easily exclude. So. Right. Which ones? Well, anything that was actively managed generally came with a higher fee. And if they're actively managed, I mean, there's all kinds of research that shows that those types of products generally don't outperform index-based ETFs. I mean, they might in one or two years, but in the long run, and that's what our portfolios are built for, we needed something that would be robust over decades. And so, you know, our universe was limited to Canadian, well, maybe I'll get into

that in a sec, but low fee, broad based ETFs. We did a lot of work on, you know, large cap versus all cap. And we found that on a risk adjusted basis, and in terms of, you know, diversification, that we preferred the all cap versus large cap. So I want to kind of diversification that we preferred the all-cap versus large-cap. Do you want to kind of explain what that means? Oh, yeah. Sure. So large-cap, cap is capitalization. It's how big a company is. So large-cap refers to the biggest companies in a country. All-cap is all companies within a country. So the TSX-60 is a large cap index. It's the 60 biggest companies in Canada. And XIU, which is an iShares ticker, it's the oldest ETF in the world, actually. It's based on this index, the TSX-60. iShares also has an ETF XIC, which is based on the TSX Composite Index,

which is, I think, 240 biggest companies in Canada, around 230, 240. So for what you get for that fee, you get access to 240 different companies. They're market cap weighted, which is generally the most, it's the easiest approach in terms of portfolio management. So less fees on that. And over the long run, they do pretty well. So we decided to go with the all cap

versus the large-cap, partly because of, mostly because of the diversification and also the risk return profile was slightly better. And I think that ties into the diversification. You have exposure to 240 companies instead of 60 companies. And, you know, to provide a few historical examples of why that's preferable, you know, you've had instances where you've had these Canadian companies over time that have been, you know, the biggest company in Canada. There's that whole thing about it's a curse to be the big, unless you're Royal Bank or TD, it's a curse to be the biggest. And so if you're in the large cap index, which has exposure to the 60 largest, you're more at risk to those companies than if you're in the composite index or a comparable index to the composite that has exposure to more companies. And so we just felt that that was a more prudent measure to take.

Another interesting thing was, do we want the ETF to be Canadian listed or US listed? And so this revolves around the whole concept of withholding tax. And so withholding tax on an ETF that has a higher dividend yield, it's more important to consider than if an ETF has no dividend yield, then you don't really care. But what withholding taxes is if you have a foreign ETF or it holds foreign securities, then it depends on the country, but we have a tax treaty with the US. Canada has a tax treaty with the US that 15% of dividends are withheld, depending on certain things, but not in all cases. So for example, if you own VOO or IVY or SPY, those are three large S&P 500 ETFs that are domiciled in the US.

If you own those in a registered account, like an RSP or a RIF, then you don't have any withholding tax. If you hold those in a non-registered, you get withheld, but you might be able to get a foreign tax credit to get that back a year later. And if you hold them in your TFSA or even RESP, you just pay the 15% and you never see that again. And so it was important to us as well because our funds would face withholding tax. And you only want to have, so you can have one layer of withholding or you could have two layers of withholding. And so this speaks to maybe why we chose the BMO one.

So BMO is a Canadian listed ETF, which directly owns emerging market stocks directly. And for the fee that BMO charges, I don't think that there was anything that was better in Canada that did that. There were ETFs that had lower management expense ratios, lower fees that were listed in Canada that did that. There were ETFs that had cheaper, that had lower management expense ratios, lower fees that were listed in Canada. But in those cases, they wrapped a US product that that held the emerging market stocks. And so when you factor in withholding tax,

it was less ideal. And then on the, so it was a combination of fees withholding tax liquidity was also a consideration so i mean there are some um there are some newer products that haven't been around for a while that are also index-based equity etfs or um but they just don't trade as often and arguably less liquid. And so another factor with our products are only going to be as liquid as their underlines. So if we choose very liquid, low fee underlines, then that reduces the bid ask spread on our ETFs as well. So that's, I might have skipped a bit, but that's pretty high level how we chose our ETFs. But you're right.

That's super helpful. That's super helpful. Yeah. There isn't a lot of daylight between these ETFs. And so I think if you're choosing for yourself, you know, which of an iShares or Vanguard or BMO ETF to choose, I mean, you're getting really nitty gritty. I mean, there's all kinds of online resources where you can find out what's best for you for what type of account for what purpose. But no, even you just saying it, I feel like a lot of people don't realize this, that certain Canadian listed ETFs that give you exposure to the US stock

market, for example, I think a lot of people just assume is a Canadian company that bought these US stocks and then put them in their own ETF. But no, a lot of them just actually just have a U.S. ETF in there, and that U.S. ETF owns those stocks. So it's important, I think, for people if they want to do this on their own or just do their own research just to get more familiar with how these products are constructed is to look on those websites and see, okay, what's the holdings? Oh, there's one holding.

Oh, it's one other ETF. And then you can look at that. So I think it's one of those things where it's like, most people have no idea. They just, I mean, especially I feel like I've been spending a lot more time on Instagram and people just like loving to make recommendations in a 15 second, you know, whatever real or TikTok or something like that. And he's like, buy these ETFs. And you're like, whoa, whoa, let's unpack that. Which is why I love having the podcast because we can actually unpack it. Exactly. We can talk for a while

and actually explain how these things are. So I think that's super helpful. Now, the other question I guess I got from people that are looking at your funds, because I love the idea that it's like kind of a one-stop shop. You literally could start investing in it at 25 and continue to be invested in that same fund until you retire and throughout retirement.

So it's very simple. But I guess I think a lot of people are scared of something too simple. What would you say to that? Because investing is supposed to be complicated and hard, isn't it? That's why only the rich can be super savvy when it comes to investing. But what, you know, what's, do you get any concerns from people who are like, oh, I'm thinking of investing in these ETFs, but I'm just not sure about them? Yeah, I mean, I guess what I hear the most is, I do understand the need for people to feel like they need to do something complicated for it to be good. In investing, it's completely the opposite. Usually the simplest approach can be

like a really good approach. I'm hesitant to say the best, but it can get you most of the way to being the best approach. And if somebody's arguing for something more complicated, they would really need to persuade me with data more than emotion that that's the case, right? But yeah, I hear you. I think for some people, they crave simplicity. There are a lot of people out there who are just saying, I just want to buy the one thing. Tell me one thing that I need to do, and I just want to buy the one thing. And I've heard that directly from friends and family when I was, again, helping and suggesting what types of things they invest in. And certainly the asset allocation ETFs were great for that. I mean, you just say, just buy

VBAL. And every time you have a little bit more money, buy VBAL. And every time you need money, just sell a little VBAL. So some people crave the simplicity. And then I guess there are two types of people who crave something more complicated. One type are the people who have a lot of experience doing this sort of thing. And it's a hobby for them. And they derive personal enjoyment from it. And it's a form of entertainment. And they get to exercise their analytical part and their creative part. And it can be really fulfilling.

It can be really stressful. It can be an emotional roller coaster. But it's and so for those people, I mean, they're going to do it. And and that's fine as long as, you know, I hope that the people who are trading like that have their own personal guidelines. And they, you know, I'm not going to do this with more than 10 percent of my portfolio or whatever, and stick to that no matter what. It can be really tempting if you're on a winning streak to maybe let a position ride, you know, especially if you do really well on one thing and now you're more than 10% exposed, it might be a really good opportunity to, you know, collect some profits and to bring your, you know, bring it back so that 90% of your investments are in the low fee diversified ETFs.

But then there's the group of people who they don't know a lot about investing and they feel like, okay, if I'm doing it too simple, I'm doing something wrong. And those are the people, it's hardest to reach those people and to get the messaging out there. I think that, you know, there's a lot of people talking about this, but I feel like we're almost talking to each other in an echo bubble. I know. I know what you mean. Yeah. And it's like, it's the same people talking the same conversation with themselves. And it's, I mean, that's why a podcast like yours is so great is that it's helping spread this message of sometimes doing the easy, the simpler approach is really the best approach because the more you complicate things, the more you increase the

potential for higher fees or higher taxes or making mistakes or incurring losses. And so I really hope if there's one takeaway from this podcast that your listeners have, it's that simpler and easier is usually better. And that doesn't mean staying in cash or and it doesn't mean just being 100% in, you know, in an equity ETF. Sometimes simpler is something in between. Yeah. Now, I'm curious what your thoughts are or if you've had conversations with people as we kind of, you know, experienced a big bull run since the crash in 2020. And then everyone felt like they were rock stars being so smart, investing in anything and earning a really high return. And now into 2022, things are shifting. People are talking about a recession. This is very triggering for me as a millennial

who went through the Great Recession. I'm like, oh, gosh, now here we are again. But now I'm in my 30s and I I've got actual capital here. And seeing the red my portfolio. I'm curious, what kind of, you know, things would you say to people that are because I feel like a lot of people put a lot of money into the market in 2021, because or 2020 and 2021, because it looked like everyone was making money. Now I'm hearing a lot more fear from people, they're afraid to start investing or to continue investing they're thinking of hitting pause because because again it is it kind of it is irrational but it is cycle it's the the the psychology of money really where we if we think things are going down we don't want to participate because we we're afraid of losing our money even though this is actually the best

part the best time to start investing or contribute to your investments to grow over time but i I'm curious, what are your kind of thoughts on that? Or what would you say to someone who's terrified to keep on investing or start investing right now? Yeah, I mean, it's, it can be terrifying. All the things that you said are true. It can be terrifying. And also, it is the best time. It's funny how investing is so different than other things like, you know, the month before Christmas, you have all these sales and you have Black Friday and Cyber Monday where everything's 20, 30 percent off. And people like literally stampede and kill each other running into Walmarts to get the thing that's 20 or 30 percent off. And, you know, the one place that nobody's doing that in is in financial markets. So bonds have had their biggest pullback in arguably decades. And people are saying bonds are dead. I mean, I would argue bonds have never been more alive. It's been a while. I mean, the yield to maturities

or what the expected return is if you were to invest right now is well over 3% in some areas, whereas just six months ago, in some areas, it was less than 1%. So what you expect to make off bonds is better than it has been in years. And then same with stocks. Every time stocks pull back, I mean, what would you rather? Would you have rather bought them six months ago or would you rather buy them now? I mean, I would rather own them now. Now, had you bought them six months ago, think about it as if you didn't have a position on right now. Would you want to own them right now? And I would think for most people, the answer is yes. To back up a

bit, we've had, what's happening right now in markets has happened numerous times. And it happens almost with clockwork precision. I mean, sometimes it happens out of nowhere, the COVID thing happened out of nowhere. But you can almost count on a large market pullback every 10 years. You can't time it. And I'm not suggesting anybody set their clock to it. But it happens. or the Dow Jones Industrial Index, or any of these equity indices that have been around for decades, what you see is, I mean, you can't time the market, so you don't know when the bottom is or when the top is. But if you just bought and held, pick any time prior to starting from 10

years or going backwards. Is there any time where you would have bought, you know, think about, oh, I'm going to botch the wording on this, but is there any time that you would have wished that you hadn't invested? Like, you know, there were recessions in the early 70s. If you were to buy at the top of the market right before then and held until now, I mean, you'd be set. So yeah, you'd be wealthy. Yeah. And the same can be said for even going into the great financial crisis of 2008. I mean, had you bought at the top of that market and held until now, you'd still be up significantly.

And so what I would argue is, you know, the way these things have worked over time is that, you know, if you bought at the top of the most recent top, which would have been in the fall or early January of this year, in 10 years, you'll be happy that you did. And so if you buy, if you get into the market right now, and again, like low fee diversified, picking stocks can be dangerous. But if you buy an index based product that's low fee in 10 years from now, you should, I would expect that you'd be very happy that you did. Yeah, I agree. And I think just people need to sometimes hear it again and again. Right? This isn't anything I feel like a lot of the stuff that I talked about on the show, it's like nothing's

really changed. I've been doing this just for seven years. And this information is still pretty much the same. And for me, that should that gives me comfort. I hopefully been doing this just for seven years and the information is still pretty much the same. And for me, that gives me comfort. Hopefully it gives listeners comfort that investing does not have to be that complicated. And like you said, we've seen ups and downs in the market. We've had recessions before and it is kind of like clockwork almost every 10 years. So that should also give you comfort that there's a little bit of a predictability to it. It's not always, wow, we've never seen this before. It's like it's always a little bit different, but it's also kind of the same, same, but different is what I like to call it. Yeah, that's right.

Yeah. And it's true. I mean, like if the market were only going up by, you know, 10, 15, 20 percent every year, that's not healthy either. I mean, economies don't grow that quickly. There's no reason why the stock market should grow that quickly either. And so to have these pullbacks, it's just a natural feature of the stock market. It happens. Like you said, it happens roughly every 10 years.

I mean, maybe it's happened a little bit more frequently in recent history for different reasons, but it's going to happen. And when it happens, I mean, like I said, it's impossible to time the market. So one of the best things that people can do is, it's called dollar cost averaging, but it's just making regular contributions to your RSP or TFSA or just saving a little bit of every paycheck and trying to squirrel that money away and invest it. And don't hoard it in cash waiting for the best time, because usually the best time will be when everybody's happy again about how stock markets are doing. And

that's probably going to be when it's back at or close to all time highs. Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, I hope this gives some comfort and also some really helpful information to listeners, especially anyone who is freaking out or is thinking about investing and isn't sure if right now is the the best time or if they're they are invested and they i i can't tell you how many people have talked to they're like i started investing in december and everything's down and i feel like i'm an idiot i did it wrong it's like no no no don't look at the short term remember you're in this for the long term especially when you're investing for a goal like retirement. So just be patient. I feel like I can also confidently say that as someone who's been investing in real money since I think the age of 24 and now I'm 36. It's like I've seen a

lot of ups and downs. And the best thing I can say is to never not be investing. Just keep on doing it no matter what. And if somebody started in December and if they're still adding to their investments now, then, you know, they're averaging down, which, you know, in the long run, I think they'll be OK. Just hold the course. And, you know, that's what a lot of, you know, the asset allocation ETFs and our target date funds, they help you stay the course and, you know, you stick to your plan better, especially if you're not trading individual stocks. It's much easier to stick to the plan when you're just holding one thing. Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, thank you so much, Myron, for being on the show. Where can people find more information? I know you guys have a

great website, but I really like your YouTube channel as well because you've got some great short videos that go more in depth about some key things that people should know about investing. So yeah, can you tell me where people can find more info? Yeah, sure. So we're at evermore.ca. Our ETFs are called the Evermore Retirement ETFs. And so, and like you can buy them. How like, oh, yeah. So we're like, do I go through Evermore?

Or how do I get these? We actually get that question a lot, which is great because I mean, those are the questions that we get from the people who we really want to try to help are the people who are brand new to investing and don't know where to start. And they're the ones who need this product almost more than anybody else. And so we've been getting that question a lot. They're like, OK, like, you know, can I go to your website and buy them? And actually, no, it's the same as with any other ETF.

So if you have a brokerage account or a direct investing account, all of the major banks have them. There are some independent ones like Questrade or Wealthsimpletrade. You can buy them there. Our tickers are on our website. So again, evermore.ca. We have eight different ETFs right now, ranging if you're planning to retire around 2025, around 2030, 35, 40, all the way up to 2060. So find the fund that you think might be right for you. It's really easy to choose. I mean, it's just based on when do you expect to retire. And so for me, I expect to retire, I'm turning 65 in 2044, so I might buy the 2045s. And so I just buy that ETF from my own RSP. And again, they're just for the goal of retirement. They're not for the goal of saving for a vacation or even for children's education.

We didn't design them like that. We designed them going back to all that computer simulation that we did. It was about really maximizing your chances of having enough of a retirement nest egg so that you don't outlive it. And so with that, I'm curious, would you build a product for like college funds, RESPs? Maybe in the future? Maybe, maybe in the future. Yeah. But for now, I mean, I think the goal that again, that all Canadians share is retiring one day. And target date funds are a thing that have existed for a long time. They just haven't existed in ETF format in Canada and not at such a low fee. So for us, this was the easiest way to get started. And so, yeah, some more information at evermore.ca.

You can find our tickers there and you can purchase ETFs through your direct investing or brokerage account. Amazing. Well, thanks so much for coming on the show. I think you shared so much helpful information to everybody and it was a pleasure having you on. Yeah. So thanks. Thanks so much, Jessica. It was really nice being on. And that was episode 345 with Myron Genick from Evermore Capital. You can find more information about them at evermore.ca and to follow them on Twitter at Evermore ETFs and Instagram at Evermore ETFs as well. Not only that, I actually did make a video about their ETFs in the spring. So if you go to my YouTube channel, jessicamorehouse.com

slash YouTube or just Googlehouse.com slash YouTube, or just Google Jessica Morehouse within YouTube, you will be able to find that video and also all my other videos. FYI, I have a YouTube channel as well. That's, you know, a bit different than the podcast. I don't interview people. It's usually just about a single topic and I kind of go in depth about it. But I am working on growing it and putting out more videos. So make sure to hit that up. Find me subscribe. Let me know what kind of topics you want me to cover in future videos. I would really appreciate it. Now I've got a few things to share as always. So don't go away. Here's just a few words I want to share about this season's podcast

sponsor. This episode of the More Money Podcast is supported by Desjardins. Do you feel valued at your financial institution? Because Desjardins is on a mission to enrich the lives of Canadians, help build stronger communities, and educate its members so they can confidently reach their financial goals. Not only do they offer one-of-a-kind customer care and offer a variety of financial services to fit your needs. As a cooperative, they put their members first. So if you're looking for an institution that's making an impact, look no further than Desjardins. To learn more about Desjardins and how they're making a difference, visit Desjardins.com. Okay, so things I want to share with

you. Just a reminder, I'm giving away a ton of books, six currently, and I will be adding to the pile before the season closes out in mid-December or late December. So if you go to jessicamorehouse.com slash contest, you can also find that link if you forget what it is in the show notes for this episode, jessicamorehouse.com slash 345. Also, FYI, if you're ever trying to find more details about a particular episode, you can find the show notes, all the shows for every single episode at jessicamorehouse.com slash podcast. That is where you can find them. So currently, I'm giving away a copy of Becoming Superwoman by Nicole Lappin, The Bogle Effect by Eric Valchunas, Seen, Heard, and Paid by Alan Henry, Untying the Knot by Kelly Lavalllly lavalie dump your degree by zakiya

akarelli and the recent book that's been added to the giveaway is cash flow cookbook by gordon stein and it's the canadian edition i'm giving away but it is available also in an american edition if you're interested so make sure to check out jessicamorehouse.com slash contest to enter to win one of those books. Another thing I want to share, because I think I may have mentioned this on the podcast, or at least if you're on my newsletter, which again, you can find and sign up to to get my newsletter, jessicamorehouse.com slash subscribe. I think I mentioned I had the idea in my head that I would love to do another event now that we're, you know, pretty much out of the woods. I mean, though, you look at the news, and you're just, you know, it's always bad news. I thought it would be safe to do another, you know, event,

you know, I have had my millennial money meetup series, I started that in 2016. And we're in 2022, for goodness sakes, and I thought it'd be fun. But you know, I had the idea and then realized I really just don't have enough time to like put on a really awesome event before you know, the holidays and that's when you know, it's just a terrible time to actually do your own events. So not going to happen this fall. With that said, I'm hoping that I will be able to do a live event in the new year, whether it's probably not the winter. No one wants to go out of the house in the winter. I certainly don't. Maybe next spring. So something's going to happen at some point, but I'm just going to maybe do a better job of planning it in advance. I'm probably also going to rebrand it because

when I kind of did a poll on Instagram and on my newsletter to say, hey, would you be interested in coming to one of my events? And I did say, you know, one of my other, you know, millennial money meetups, would you be interested? A lot of people emailed me and be like, oh, I'm not a millennial, but I'd love to come. And I'm like, well, I don't want people to feel like they can't come because they're not a millennial. Like the reason I gave it that title was just to attract millennials, but not to detract or, you know, I'm not going to kick you out if you're not a millennial I just thought it was just a branding tool it was just I thought it was like oh just so you know millennials can come to

the event and everyone else too so I think I might rebrand the event to I don't know what but man I don't know maybe like more money events or something I don't know we'll see but um yeah just just giving you some info about that in case you're wondering whatever happened with that event that I talked about. Yeah, what else? What else? What else? What else? Yeah, I've just been honestly trying to catch up on work after spending like a whole month studying and kind of avoiding a bunch of stuff. Budget spreadsheets, they're, theyets, they're coming. There's a few more available on my website, jessicamorehouse.com slash shop, so you can find the updated versions

of my budget spreadsheets. I've also been releasing some more videos on my YouTube channel, jessicamorehouse.com slash YouTube is where you can find that and check out all my new videos. But yeah, I cannot believe that we are already. How? Wasn't it just summer? And now it's mid November, which means it's basically Christmas. You know what I mean? Like, this time is just flying by way too quickly. But yeah, but yeah. So anyways, that's really all I've got going on at the moment. But I'm sure I'll have more things to share with you later in a future episode. Teasing next week, I've got Emily Guy-Burken on the show. If you're kind of familiar with the personal finance space, she's been around for a while. I've known of her for a while because she's a very well-known freelance writer, but also has written several books. And two of her most recent books we're

going to be chatting about in next week's episode. She has a book called The Five Years Before You Retire and also Stacked, Your Super Serious Guide to Modern Money Management. So you're going to love that. And then just to give you a reference point, after Emily, we've got one, two, three, four, four more episodes, four more episodes. And then we're wrapping it up until the new year. How does the year go by so quickly like that? I do not like that at all. Nope. Nope. Don't like that. Don't like it at all. Nope, nope, nope. Nope, nope, nope. But you know, that's life. And you just got to deal with it. You just got to. I mean, there's nothing you could do. You can't stop time. If I could, I would. Anywho,

everything's fine. Thank you so much for listening to this episode. A big shout out to my podcast editor, Matt Rideout. And I'll see you back here next Wednesday for that episode with Emily Guy-Burken. I hope you have an amazing rest of your week and weekend. Stay safe and warm and, you know, budgeting. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. But yeah, I'll see you back here next Wednesday. this podcast is distributed by the women in media podcast network find out more at women in media.network