More Money Podcast - 350 Achieving Financial Freedom on Your Own Terms - Cindy Zuniga-Sanchez, Author and Founder of Zero-Based Budget Coaching LLC

Episode Date: December 21, 2022

I can’t believe we’ve come to the end of Season 15 and that 2023 is just around the corner. To help me close out this season is Cindy Zuniga-Sanchez. Cindy is joining me on the show to discuss how her background as a child of immigrants shaped her money journey and sparked her passion for learning and teaching others about personal finance. Cindy Zuniga-Sanchez is an author, speaker, and founder of Zero-Based Budget Coaching LLC. In 2015, after racking up over $200k in student loan and credit card debt from her time at law school, Cindy decided to document her debt payoff journey on social media. This is exemplified in her new book, Overcoming Debt, Achieving Financial Freedom: 8 Pillars to Build Wealth, in which she shares her money story and provides readers with the roadmap she developed and used on her journey toward financial freedom. In this episode, Cindy shares how impactful her upbringing as a child of immigrants was on her financial journey and how it was able to help her avoid lifestyle creep once she started her career. We also discuss why we must define financial freedom for ourselves, instead of following other people’s perceptions of it. I want to say a HUGE thank you to everyone for listening to this season of the show and to those who have continued to support the More Money Podcast for the past 7 years! I wouldn’t be able to continue to make this podcast without you listening every week. I hope you have a wonderful holiday season and cheers to next season and 2023!  See you in January! For full episode show notes visit: https://jessicamoorhouse.com/350 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello, Lulu, and welcome back to the More Money Podcast. This is episode 350 and the season finale of season 15 of the show. I'm your host, Jessica Morehouse, and I am so pleased to see you here for this final episode before we take, you know, a few weeks off, recuperate, eat as much food as we can, get our hands on, drink some nice mulled wine and eggnog and just take a lot of naps. That's what I look forward to eating and napping. I am a cat. So I am so excited to end this season off with such a great interview with someone that I started getting to know, gosh, maybe it was in the spring. She was actually part of an online mastermind that I'm part of with a bunch of other financial content creators. And she was discussing that she was working on a book. And now the book is done and ready for you to pick up and read. And it is such

a great book and story. And it's a beautiful book. And of course, I'm going to give it away. And I'm going to share more info about that at the end of this episode. But I of course, I'm going to give it away and I'm going to share more info about that at the end of this episode. But I, of course, I'm talking about Cindy Zuniga Sanchez Esquire. She's an author, speaker, and the founder of Zero Based Budget Coaching LLC. And you may be most familiar with her if you follow her already on Instagram at Zero Based Budget. She's also on TikTok at ZeroBaseBudget as well. But she has a brand new book or her first book, really, but I'm sure it's not the last. It is called Overcoming Debt, Achieving Financial Freedom, Eight Pillars to Build Wealth. And what I loved about her book, and we really do dive into the topics she explored, is she has a story that I think a lot of people can relate to who are children of immigrants. And just the fact that her experience, her journey is very different than people that have been living in, you know, say the United States or Canada for generations. And it's amazing just how her family and her community came together for her to live this, you know, kind of American

dream, actually. It is American dream. She is American. And then she, you know, did lots of different things, went to school, became a lawyer. But now her passion is for financial education, which I think is so amazing because of everything that she learned. And now she's giving back and, you know, helping other people of all backgrounds on how they can overcome debt and achieve financial freedom. Things that we all want. We all want that. So I'm not going to share too much more because we really do go into her background because there's a good chunk of her book talking about her experience and journey, which I love. I love reading stories. I don't love a book that's just, here are some tips. It's like, no, no, no.

I want to get to know you and what you went through because that's just how we all can connect, right? Our different stories and experiences. So we chat all about that and some of the great pieces of advice that she wants to give to you. But before I get to this interview with Cindy, I just want to share a few words about this season's podcast sponsor. This episode of the More Money Podcast is supported by Desjardins. Does your financial institution share your values? Because Desjardins is about more than just money. They are on a mission to enrich people's lives and improve the economic and social well-being of Canadians everywhere. Desjardins' main goal as a cooperative is to support its members and make a positive impact on their communities by providing exceptional

customer care, offering a variety of financial services, and above all, listening to its members. They've also been at the forefront of sustainable investing as one of the first financial institutions to offer responsible investment portfolios. To learn more about Desjardins and how they're a cooperative making a difference, visit Desjardins.com. Welcome, Cindy, to the More Money Podcast. I'm so excited to have you on the show, and especially for this last episode of season 15 of my show, which is crazy. I'm so excited to have you here because I loved your book. Oh, thank you. Thank you. And thank you for inviting me. You're so welcome. You're so welcome. So you wrote the book, Overcoming Debt, Achieving Financial Freedom, Eight Pillars to Build Wealth. And you really

have been on your own you know like we talk you know a lot in the personal finance community about going on your personal finance journey and you really did go through a journey really starting I'd say in the early years in your childhood I really loved that the early section of your book where you went in depth about how money has always been you know a presence in your life where you went in depth about how money has always been, you know, a presence in your life, because you came from an immigrant family who, you know, whenever I just hear these stories, it really is like, gosh, I can't believe like, even, you know, not my parents, but my, you know, grandfathers, you know, ancestors, it's like, how did they do that? Because I could not

do that. That seems incredibly difficult. And, you know, and it's just, it's just how do they do that because I could not do that that seems incredibly difficult and you know and it's just it's just amazing and and then for you to then feel like well I need to then continue all their hard work and achieve some things so I can support my family that's like another big that's a big you know a bit of pressure and you yeah it's just some of the amazing things so I want to kind of start a little bit with your origin story. And I thought it was really fascinating to and I really love this, how supportive your family was for your success, like putting you into private school and helping you, you know, do internships and go to university and law school and all those things.. So, so to bring me back, why was, um, actually I really enjoyed actually the part of you talking about why you chose the

university you did because often, um, people get so focused on the only way to be successful is to go to a, like a name brand school. But for you, you're like, there's a lot of other financial factors that were coming into play. Yeah. Yeah. You know, so I, I grew up in a low income immigrant household where education was hands down ingrained in us that that would be the key out of poverty, you know, that in and of itself that held the key, you know, we could go ahead and we could become doctors, we could become lawyers, scientists, engineers, teachers, et cetera. And then we would be able to break the chains of poverty. And so for me, going to college was not just, okay, this will help my family, you know, just have upward mobility in terms of, you know, when it comes to finances, but it would make my family

proud. It's not just for what the world will perceive me as being successful, but it will make my parents feel that their sacrifice was well worth it. But you see here in the United States, colleges are absurdly expensive. And, you know, the really popular ones here in New York, for example, where I'm from are, you know, Columbia University, NYU. And my husband actually went to NYU. And I, you know, I will admit I did not get into NYU. And that is something that I am still a little bitter about. Right.

But look, honestly, Jessica, like even if I had, could I afford it? No. Like, were they going to give me full scholarships? No, that just was not going to happen. Okay. And so I had to be very realistic and come to terms with what can I afford? You know, where can I go that is going to provide a good quality education, but I'm not going to go into hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt for it. And I write about in the book, really the different factors that I weighed out. Um, for me, it was definitely, what is the, what are the universities known for? What kind of financial aid packages are they offering? And ultimately I settled on Stony Brook university, which is a public university here in New York. And it's a public school first and foremost, which means

that you're going to get cheaper tuition, you know, and now actually New York state has some really wonderful programs where I think it's, if your family makes less than a hundred thousand dollars a year, you can basically go for free. Like your tuition will be covered. Yeah. Like really, really amazing programs. Those were not available when I went to college, you know, 15 years ago or whatever it was when I, uh, you know, when, when I was a freshman, but, but for me, it was really important to make sound, a sound decision when it came to going to university, because I knew that taking on hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt for the undergrad level, especially was

not going to be worth it for me. I mean, I think that unless you, I, I honestly think this is my opinion. A lot of people will disagree with me and that's perfectly fine. But I think unless you're going to a school where you know, you're going to graduate with this like stellar career or that school is a feeder school for specific firms or specific types of jobs. I generally don't think it's worth going to, you know, a very expensive institution unless you know that you can get like that ROI, you know, out of it, um, at least at the undergrad level, you know, then when you want to go to medical school, law school, get your MBA and whatnot, then, okay. I do think things change a little bit. Uh, but at the undergrad level, I think, you know, go for it, go for the public

school, go for the community college, you know, even for maybe like the first two years of school, and then you can transfer into a four year institution then so that you can save some money on tuition, especially. Absolutely. And so, well, I guess you had to make that decision for yourself, what school to go to next once you decided to do law school. And that came about because you did some internships in Washington, D.C., which is so fascinating. But even that, it's true. There's so many factors that people often forget about. It's like, oh, that's great doing an internship. I'm like, that is a privilege because, yeah, like you said, you're doing it for free, not getting paid. And you actually have to spend money to participate because you have to pay your room and board

transportation, everything like that. Tell me a little bit about that and why that was so important for your family to figure out a system to make that happen for you. Yeah, you know, it was something I was actually very hesitant to share, you know, in the book, because I had never really shared about it so openly in that way. And I would I'm writing it down on paper, where people are going to be able to read that part of my story. And so back when I was a sophomore or so in college, I started looking into internships in government, in law, because I was starting to explore the idea of going to law school. And I started interning for Hillary Clinton, who was then the senator of New York. OK, so this is like back, you know, this is like 2008. OK, and that was when President Obama appointed her as secretary of state. So with her transitioning

out of that role, I got moved into Senator Schumer's office and who was the other senator in New York. And that was, I would say, is the life changing experience that I really had in terms of where the trajectory of my career would go, because I was exposed now to politics, to law, you know, government, whatnot, the functions of government. And I started interning for Senator Schumer's office in New York. Then I had the opportunity to go to DC. Now this is where the issue comes. Uh, when I was in New York, it was, it was difficult. I did have a full-time job. I actually worked at the gap. Uh, I, yeah, like over the summer at the Gap. Did you? Yeah. Years ago. Yeah. Yeah. So I worked at the Gap full time over the summer while I was also interning at Senator Schumer's office.

Now, my hours were a little ridiculous. I was very tired. But I mean, heck, I was like 19, 20 years old. I had much more energy. But anyways, so then I was presented the opportunity to go to DC. But you see here in New York, I have my parents' home, right? Where I have shelter, I have food, I have access to my basic needs. In DC, I don't quite have that. So to go to DC meant to not just, you know, not have sources of income. Like I was easily able to, well, not easily, but I worked for here when, with my full time job, but I also had, did not have, you know, the shelter food and all these basic things that I, um, you know, that I had here in New York, I wasn't going to have that in DC, which meant that I had to pay out of pocket for that. And I went to my parents and I was very hesitant to even go

to them because I know my parents, they want everything for me. And I told them about the opportunity, but then I was like, oh, but the internship is unpaid. And they were like, we'll make it work. Immediately they went into solution mode. And my sister and my mom were in charge of taking out a credit card. Yes, a credit card so that I can literally like feed myself while I was down in DC. Uh, my mom withdrew, I will never forget. She withdrew a thousand dollars so that I can pay the two months of rent. My rent was $500 for this room

that Jessica, it wasn't even, it didn't have a door just so that you know, okay. The room did not have a door. It was like a, it was kind of like a screen sort of. So like, it was something that they like made as a room because it was really like a nook, you know? Um, and, but heck look, it was $500. It was, you know, and so for me, it's like, you know, it's funny because I think back on that and I think back on when, you know, while I was writing the book, sharing that story. And I laugh about it now. I can. I can laugh about it now. There's humor in it. There's fond memories because that that internship in D.C. interning for the senator was truly life-changing. But I can't, you know, I can't skip over the sacrifices, right? That my parents made, that my family made as a collective. It wasn't just my parents. My sisters made

sacrifices too, you know, so that I could go to DC and take on this unpaid internship. And that's actually a big reason why I am very, very against unpaid internships. I'm against unpaid work as a general matter. I don't care if you're 18 years old, 28, whatever, wherever you are. Um, I think it's, uh, I think that is very privileged, right? To be able to even take on unpaid work means that you have a source to cover your shelter, your food, your transportation, your basic needs. And that is something that unfortunately, a lot of children of immigrants, people of color do not have access to those types of resources, meaning they cannot take on those unpaid internships, meaning that they will be excluded from certain opportunities

that their counterparts will have. You know, I mean, in the book I share about some of my co-interns, they, it's funny, there's a line in the book where I share that, like some of them were in the Georgetown student housings, right? Like the dorms, which are like thousands of dollars for a summer, thousands of dollars. Okay. To stay in those dorms. And that some of them were in their parents' second home in DC. And I actually meant that. Okay. I actually meant that because there were like two of my co-interns, which look, they were great, right? Nothing on them personally, but I thought they were kidding when one of the girls

was like, Oh yeah, I'm at my parents' apartment here. And I was like, I don't know. What does that mean? Like they, do they own it? She's like, Oh yeah. It's like their condo over here. And I'm like, how do you just have a condo? Yeah. It's like, I don't understand the concept of second house. That's crazy. of privilege, financial privilege in a way that I had never really had to come to terms with, right? Because I had gone to, I was in public school. I was in a public university with students from all different backgrounds, all different income levels. But now for the first time, I was really facing financial privilege kind of head on. And I saw the differences between me and my peers who were able to go out to eat basically every day or every other day, you know, after work, whereas me,

I was rushing home to, you know, cook my little meals with whatever I had in the fridge. Yeah. And what, so from that, that still kind of inspired you to, you know, go to law school, become a lawyer, you know, I guess, what was it that really drew you to that career? And in the back of your head, were you also kind of thinking maybe finance or was that just way later? Yeah, no finance had no, that was not at all a thought in my head. It really, really wasn't, I was a business major, um, but I didn't focus on accounting or, or finance. I actually focused on marketing. That was where my focus was, uh, for my business major, but that internship made me really feel

like I wanted to go into politics. And I went, I applied to law school, not just because I wanted to be a lawyer and, you know, I wanted to practice in the courtroom and all of that. It's because I wanted to run for office. Like that was my goal, you know, back in that, at that time, there had not been a Latina Senator in the U S Senate ever. Now there is one, you know, since then, thankfully, I mean, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's crazy to think, right. It's crazy to think. But, you know, the senator from Nevada, Catherine Cortez Masto, she's the first Latina senator. And, you know, for me, that that's actually why I went to law school, because I was like, OK, I want to run for office. I want to become a senator, et cetera, et cetera. But when I got to law school is when I shifted. My interest just shifted, you know, because law school exposes you to so many different paths. And I also think, and I hope that this maybe resonates with your

audience. I don't believe, you know, what you have the potential to achieve until you're exposed to it, you know? And for me, especially as a child of immigrants, I was never exposed to the private legal sector. I mean, I didn't even know what that meant. And it wasn't until I got to law school that I started seeing that there's this whole field of attorneys that represent large corporations, large government entities in lawsuits in both federal and state court. And I thought to myself, hmm, maybe I can do that. But what was most appealing about the job, especially on paper, is the pay, you know, the pay. It was back then the starting salary for first year associates entering the, you know, these like large private law firms here in the United States was $160,000.

I mean, imagine graduating law school at the age of 25, 26, 27 with that kind of salary, right? It's potentially life-changing. And so on paper, I was like, oh my goodness, like this is, you know, this has the potential to change my life and the life of my family. But really it wasn't until I did the internship at the law firm, which was paid. Okay. Praise. All right. Like it was paid, um, that I realized that, Hmm, I actually think this is the field that I want to go into. And so, so walk me through. So you were able to do that internship and then you were one of the, cause I know how competitive it is. You were one of the people who got hired. Um, and internship and then you were one of the, because I know how competitive it is, you were one of the people who got hired and then you started earning this salary. And that must

have felt like finally all of these years of hard work that me and my family have kind of gone through, this is kind of the reward. But how long were you working, you know, in the field and when did things start to shift to for you to, I guess, get more interested in your own personal finances and then to completely change careers after spending so much time working on this one path? Yeah. So I worked in the private sector at a private law firm for seven years. But for me, it was pretty quickly after entering the legal profession that I realized the importance of money. And the reason is because of my debt. So I graduated law school with $215,000 of debt over 200,000, a little over

200,000 was straight like loans, student loans. And then I had about $13,000 in credit card debt. And I graduated law school, you know, yes, with this fantastic career opportunity with great, you know, opportunities for growth and whatnot, uh, obviously wonderful salary more than my family had ever seen. I mean, by, by many multipliers. Okay. And I thought like, dang it, I've done it. Like I've done it. This is great. I've accomplished it. The American dream is here, right? It is finally here.

I have a taste of it. And then my dad was staring at me and said, girl, wait, girl, slow down, slow down because you gotta pay me off. And the reason why, you know, sometimes people ask me like, why were you so motivated? Why, what was that fire that really kind of pushed you to want to not just pay it off quickly? And the answer is my parents, you know, it's, it's the, I knew that as soon as I would be able to be, to say that I'm debt free, I could pay, I could help my parents

more financially. And so even though my parents weren't on my back for, Oh my gosh, then you need to pay this off. You need to pay this off. I knew that for all those years of sacrifice that they put into me, to my sisters, uh, you know, now was their time to rest and now was their time to rest. And now was their time to enjoy the fruits of their labor. And I knew that as their daughter, I had a responsibility to help that. And so for me, I was like, I need to pay off this debt ASAP. I need to figure it out and just get it done. And so about a year, I would say, Jessica, about a year into my career is when I started to listen to the podcast, watch the YouTube videos, listen to interviews, read books, so many books. Oh my gosh. I read, I read like over a dozen books on personal finance in just like the first year. You know, I mean, I really, really consumed this

information of how do I pay off my debt effectively? How do I raise my credit score? All these things, how do I start investing? Like all these things I just self-taught, you know, because I was like, I, I don't have anyone else in my life that I can kind of just like, you know, tap on the shoulder and say like, Hey, can you teach me about this stuff? You know, I didn't really have that. And so I needed to learn for myself. And that's really where my journey started. So for context, I graduated law school in 2015, June, 2015, 2016 was, it was a little bit of a wash, you know, I was just kind of like going by things, right? Like, all right, let me just whatever. Uh, but 2017 is when I refinanced my student loans, which was the right move for me because I was in the private sector. I didn't really have any like possibility of loan forgiveness

or anything like that. Uh, and, and started to, you know, just really make a dent in, um, in, in my debt. Yeah. Tell me a little bit about that first year. Cause I feel like what you experienced in that first year, uh, of working and earning like an income that you'd never experienced before. That's something that a lot of people experience when they finally kind of get to that level, like finally, my you know, all that hard work is paid off, I'm getting paid a good salary. And you want to splurge or you want to just enjoy it because you've never been able to enjoy money before because everything has been so calculated. And so you have to be so careful and that's a trap I think a lot of people fall into and get into debt is because they work so hard and then they're at this position where here's a lot of money but

there's also we're not giving you any guidelines or rules so you could do whatever you want how did you reel yourself in and I'm part of it what was it like just it's difficult because I know I used to work at a law firm. And it was so fascinating because I worked in marketing. I was not a lawyer by any means. But it was interesting seeing the associates, the partners, even the interns, how they used to dress, spend their money. And I'm like, I know you have hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt. How are you spending this kind of money? And you're just going to be in this cycle of you have to continue to work because of this lifestyle inflation. Yeah. Yeah. So even in that first year, even though I didn't yet know too much about money, I was very careful because I grew up poor. Like, you know, I grew up low income. So I immediately, I had this resistance

to like, just totally waste my money. You know, I had this kind of pause of like, all right, Cindy, like really like think about this. Don't just go and like blow all of this money. Um, and, but I think the key for me was I continued to live like a law student. You know, I didn't just immediately inflate my lifestyle. And I would encourage anyone that especially kind of comes into this new position or whatever it may be, just, just wait a little bit, right? Like just hit the pause button and continue to live your life as you are living it right now. Right. Because then you're really going to be able to feel the effects of the increased income of the job promotion or, you know, whatever it may be, because you're like,

okay, I'm living like this now. And now I have this extra money coming in, or in my case, just money coming in period. Right. And now this is you, you're able to see more the difference, right. And the impact rather than if you like immediately inflate your lifestyle, you're going to be like, wait, why do I feel broke still? Right. And it's like, well, because you moved into that fancy apartment, that's double the rent that you were paying at your previous place. So like, boom, there goes all of your pay, you know?

So for me, you know, things like staying in my studio apartment in Harlem, New York, where I was living throughout law school, I continued staying in my studio apartment in Harlem, New York, where I was living throughout law school, I continued to live in that apartment. I continued to meal prep. It was a habit that I had picked up during law school because I was broke, and I just continued to do that. But I left Fridays as my treat yourself day. On Fridays, I would go out with a coworker, we would

grab some lunch or whatever it may be rather than spending, you know, $15 a day on lunch every day. I was doing that one day a week. And then I was meal prepping and bringing my, you know, snacks and lunch or whatever for the rest of the week. Uh, transportation, I didn't go and run out and get a car, especially living in New York city. You don't really need a car. Um, I guess maybe unless you live in certain areas of the city, or maybe if you work certain, you know, in certain areas, but I lived right by the train and I, my job was in, I worked right next to the, the radio city building. Like, hello, the train is right downstairs. Like it's not, it doesn't get much better than that. Right. Um, so immediately

there I saved on my car on like a potential car payment, gas tolls, garage, right? Like repairs, insurance. And so I tried to be very steady in, even in that first year where I didn't know too, too much about finances and just like, okay, Cindy, just continue to live like a law student, pace yourself a little bit. Um, but that's not to say that I was also perfect with money because I wasn't, uh, I, you know, I worked right by fifth Avenue, the famous fifth Avenue with lots of, you know, stores and pretty lights. And I did often find myself on payday wandering into those stores just to do something just because I had had a long week and then, oh, boom, that's on sale. Why don't I get that? And I did start, you know, shopping a little bit and especially with much more for more

expensive items that I normally would not have purchased. I don't think I went overboard, but I did feed that desire to spend money. I think through buying clothes and shoes and things like that, which, you know, I mean, I don't totally regret because I think that there's a lesson in everything. Right. But,? But that is something that I did get a little spendy on. I do regret my trips to Sephora, though. I spent way too much money in Sephora. Oh, it's so easy to spend $200 there. Especially in that first year.

Oh, my gosh. It's crazy. Just like two creams would be like $100. Like, why? Yeah. Why is it so expensive? I feel you on that. I just have to kind of stop myself. You know,

one thing I think is also really, you know, important in your book is the fact that when you were at that point, you're like, okay, I want to learn the things I don't know about personal finance, because this is a whole world. There's a lot of different elements, obviously, because there's eight different pillars you really focus on in your book. But the thing that, you know, I came across, and you definitely came across is the lack of voices. And I'm sure that's why and this is why I really love that you put a kind of spotlight on a lot of other people's voices in your book. So when people are reading, they're like, hey, there's this other person you may want to follow. Because it really was, you know,, for a time, the only voices were those big ones, you know, the Ramseys, the Ormands and stuff like that. And it's hard for them to even understand

what your background and your experience was, which is difficult because then when you try to apply their lessons, they don't work. So why was it, you know, it was that what kind of inspired you to then start your own process of creating content and sharing your story. So you can kind of shift the just, you know, the fact that a lot of the voices out there were just white from one perspective. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I remember going into a Barnes and Noble to buy personal finance books, because I was ready. I was excited to read. And overwhelmingly, most of the books were from white men and older white men at that. And so I was like, come on, like give me something, right? Like give me something else to work off of.

But you know what? Nonetheless, I bought the books and a lot of them were really valuable, right? Very valuable and very helpful for me to kind of get started. But that's not ultimately who I will say I like learned from like really, really learned from. I started going to the internet and just Googling people and following certain people's podcasts and blogs and YouTube channels where they were documenting really their own journeys, like their own journeys were really spotlighted in, in, in this, uh, in this rail on, rather than just like, this is what you need to do. It was like, they, they taught from a personal perspective. And a lot of these were women. Most were women of color. Many were immigrants themselves. Some of them were daughters of immigrants. And I found that content to be so

refreshing because it was like, ah, you get me, you get what I'm going through. You see me. And so for me, it was really important then to start sharing my own story. Cause I was like, maybe I can help someone. And so I created zero based budget as an first and anonymous Instagram account, which I then made public. And I first created it anonymously because I was really embarrassed. I was really embarrassed. You know, I was sharing my story with my own numbers, right. With like, okay, I have $150,000 of debt left. You know, I made a $2,000 payment this month or, you know, whatever it may be. I was still really ashamed of it. I was like, oh my gosh, could you imagine if like my friends found this, like I would be mortified.

And then I was like, wait, no, like this is exactly why you started this, right? So that you can help maybe reach people. So don't hide behind this anonymous accounts and they just kind of go for it. And so I made my account public a few months after I started it in 2018, I was doing two things. I was documenting my journey. So it was kind of like a debt-free diary sort of, but I was also creating educational content on what I was learning. And I was teaching it the way that I would want to be taught just, you know, in very simple terms, very to the point, very approachable,

you know, and I was teaching by also using me as an example. So let me show you how I budget, right? Let me show you how I use credit cards, right? Like, let me show you how I am paying off my debt quicker because I believe that, you know, showing and teaching through examples is really powerful and that's why in the book, I teach through examples. You know, the book is really littered with examples so that people can actually see, oh, that's how you apply that in practice. That's what that looks like. And in my

book, I also highlight the stories of other personal finance educators, you know, speakers, authors, social media content creators, a little bit of a mix because I think our stories matter. And I think our stories are really important. And I think they're valid and they're different, right? Like in the story I feature in the book, I feature a story, um, you know, from a friend that was in foster care as a little boy, another friend that was undocumented for most of her adolescence, right? And now is a self-made millionaire, an actual self-made millionaire, like the ones that we see on some of these magazines, but I'm just going to, you know, um, you know, I, um, former teachers that are now in tech, you know, uh, a mom that really caters to her content to the LGBTQ plus community, right? Like

this matters. And, and it's not just my story that matters. There's dudes as well. And, and I think that when you read and you learn from diverse voices, I believe you will just be an all around better person because you're going to be more well-rounded. You know, just as I learned from white men and read like dozens of books written by them. Hey, nothing bad with that at all. Right. I learned from them. And that's great. I really found my learning was through more of these diverse voices. Right. Uh, but that's just to say that I think anyone can really learn from my book, whether you are an immigrant yourself, a child of immigrants, a woman of color, a woman, or even if you're a white dude,

right? Like, like I do think it's really important to learn from others as well. And so I do hope that my book accomplishes that because it's a little, it's a stepping stone though, right? It's a stepping stone. I'm not saying that, boom, that's it. I've done it. Jessica, we've done it. We've fixed it, right?

We've cracked the code. We've cracked the code. No, we haven't done that yet. But I do hope that it's a stepping stone in the right direction. No, and I think that's what I loved about your book, that the stories that can really make an impact, like similar to you, that's why I got into personal finance. It started with books, but they were all books read by old white men. And they were hard as someone who was like a girl in her 20s to really connect with. You're like, cool, I guess. I mean, I know I'm going to earn like 70% to your you know, your dollar. And what really brought me into this

community was reading blogs, predominantly from women sharing their personal experiences of what they did. And it made me feel like, huh, because, you know, for a while, if you just read books from these experts that have no honestly basis in reality anymore, you will eventually think, well, I couldn't do that, though, because I'm not in that position, or I didn't come from that background. So it won't work for me. But you did such a great job of highlighting so many different voices and stories and backgrounds, that you could probably find yourself somewhere to be like, oh, that's similar to me. And if they were able to do that, and they did XYZ, maybe I can give it a try. Maybe maybe it is possible for me. But yeah, that was a big challenge, I think, for

a lot of us who started at this, you know, space when there really wasn't anybody. But those stories have the biggest impact. And also, too, what's great about lots of these content creators now is they're just like us. They're just regular people who were able to do something pretty exciting. Like for you, you know, one of your, you know, kind of big things in your bias, you were able to pay off $215,000 of debt, which seems insurmountable, but a lot of people have that amount of debt from going to school. And so learning that you were able to do it and you weren't able to, and you weren't doing it, you know, lots of those stories, you're like, oh, I was able to pay off this debt really quickly. And you find out, cause they made like a bajillion dollars or they got an inheritance. You know, lots of those stories, you're like, I was able to pay off this debt really quickly. And you find out because they made like a bajillion dollars, or they got an inheritance,

you know, there's always something that they don't reveal. Hearing the real story of someone's like, I did it, and I did it this way, hard work, da da da da da. It makes a really big impact, I think. And I know, you know, obviously, debt is a big focus of your book, because that's a big focus on lots of people's lives. And that is the thing that holds people back. But also the other focus is the financial freedom part. And I think for me, once I started learning more about that, because my focus at the beginning when I was learning was paying off my little student loan, and then how do I make my very tiny income work so I can continue living my life. But then once I started learning about this, oh, you know, there's a next step. There's this thing called financial freedom. And it means, you know, something different for

everybody. It doesn't have to mean you retire at 30. It could just mean what does freedom look like to you? And a lot of us have never thought of money in that way. You know, like I similarly was raised in a household where money was tight, but we always had enough. But the idea of wealth or having, you know, the things that our neighbors have, like, you know, it's like, oh, no, we'll never have that. And so that's kind of a limiting belief a little bit, because I'm like, well, we didn't have that. So we can't have that in the future. And I think that's such an important aspect is once you are able to create that budgeting system, pay off that debt, what's next? And I think that's like the key. So do you want to kind of share about why you really want to focus on that? Because sometimes that's

not discussed enough, especially, you know, with women, because we don't feel like we're part of that equation or people of color. Yeah, you know, when I first learned about financial freedom, I was learning a lot about it through the lens of like the FIRE community, right? Like the financial dependence, retire early community where it's like, well, if you hit, you know, a million dollars or $2 million in your bank account, then you've achieved financial independence, which means that technically you don't need to work in exchange for money. And so I equated, oh, well then financial freedom means that, right? And what I found that, no, no, it's not that, right? Financial freedom is when you view money as a tool rather than as a burden, right? When money is now

really the tool that you're using to buy back some more of your time, to do the things that you enjoy, to spend more time with family and friends, not necessarily a fixed number, you know? So I'll use me as an example, right? So I paid off my debt. I started investing pretty aggressively, which especially in 2019 to 2021, you know, the stock market was doing pretty well. And that's great because there were a lot of gains there, you know, this year, not so much, but that's okay. That's okay. Cause the stock market, that's what the stock market does. Right. Um, but where I am now is I'm not a millionaire, right? I'm not a millionaire at all. Um, but I have achieved a level of financial freedom where I was able to leave my very high paying corporate law job in exchange for, you know, this

entrepreneurship, you know, where I've been able to educate people on personal finance. And look, right now, am I bringing in the kind of income that I was bringing in as a corporate lawyer? Frankly, no, no. And it's probably going to take me some time to get there, but that's okay because that's part of what financial freedom means, right? It's that everything else is kind of the building blocks are there, right? They're established. Like I have a good handle on my budget, my savings. I have an emergency fund. I have my sinking funds, which are savings funds for the things that you actually want to spend money on, right? Like the big ticket items or

a reoccurring expense, maybe like that's also taken care of. My investments are taken care of. They're going, right? They're doing their thing right now in the stock market. Like everything's just kind of in place that I can make these decisions and I can change certain parts about my life, uh, say yes to certain opportunities and say no to the things that no longer serve me. That I think is financial freedom. You know, now seeing money as like, okay, how do I make this work for me? Rather than like waking up with that sense of dread or that like pit in your stomach of of worry about money which I know too way too well right and now having a little bit more breathing room and that's why I teach about financial freedom through these pillars right the book is

all about eight pillars to put into place so that then you can feel like, oh, okay, I can make this shift in my life, you know, or maybe I can say yes to that exciting opportunity that maybe even just a few years ago, I would have said no to out of fear, right? Or out of just an inability to like, I just simply quite literally can't afford to. And I think that that's the real lesson and the real key is how do we get to a point where we are able to have more flexibility and peace in our lives because of the hard work of laying down those pillars? Yeah. Yeah. No, I completely agree for a long time because, yes, similarly, like financial like financial freedom financial independence those terms blew up because of the fire community which is a very you know interesting aspect of the the overall personal finance community but it does kind of make you think that it is a specific

number and if you're not that number then you are not successful or you haven't achieved financial freedom even though yeah then eventually you know as I started talking to more people you know on the podcast and just learning more I started started to realize actually financial freedom can be whatever you want it to be. And for me, I feel like I have done that similar to you. I quit my job, gosh, six years ago and now do my own thing. And yeah, it is a job. I have to work. And, you know, sometimes I don't love every aspect, but I don't worry about money. Like I and it's funny perspective is so interesting. Like I didn't realize how much I worried about money, like to the to a fault where I would say no to things or I would just like be driven by fear. And now I'm not and I'm not, you know, nowhere near someone who can retire. But I actually don't care about that because I finally I'm like, what am I going to do retired? You know, because you have that flexibility. See, the thing is that it's also that sense of like, like comfort and peace and like a certain, you know, I I'll admit, honestly, Jessica, as soon as I finished paying off my debt,

I was like, I need to hit fire. Like, that's it. That's the next goal on my list. And it needs to happen in the next like 10 years, no questions asked. And then it's like, wait, is that really a way that I want to live? Look, certain people want to, that's great. Right. For them. But that's not what I want to do. You know, I don't want that for my life.

I, I like working. I do. I like working. I like contributing, but, but I want to be able to do that in a way that's also sustainable, you know? And I think that I very much echo your sentiments of like, you know, finding that sense of, of peace and comfort with your finances, that you might not be a multimillionaire right now, but that's okay because you're enjoying the journey. And that's a big theme in my book, right? Is the journey. Don't just look at the

end goal and live for that end point. Live today, live now, you know? And I think that's really, really important. It's an important message that honestly, it took me some time to understand. But I do hope that people that read the book, not just feel that those feels as well, but really understand, okay, so then these are the tools that I kind of need, right, to put everything down into place so that I can also achieve some level of that as well. Yeah. And I think you do such a great job of really condensing because there's a lot of opinions. There's a lot of information out there when it comes to how do I do money? And you did such a great job of condensing them into these really structured pillars that when I was reading, like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, it's just like, yeah, that's what I would do. I appreciate that. Thank you. So I think your book is just

it's going to help so many people. And I'm so glad that you wrote it and you're here to share about it. So before I let you go, where can people find more information about you and the book so they can, you know, kind of especially as we release this at the end of the year, start their journey now. I always tell people start those goals or those things that you want to change in your life before the new year. Yeah, yeah, have them in place so that you can, you know, start the year on a really strong foot and like, okay, I'm ready to tackle these. Um, but yeah, you can find me, I'm most active on Instagram. I'm at zero based budget. You can also check on my website, zero dash based budget.com information on my book on things that

I've been up to. Um, but my Instagram is definitely where you get like the kind of day to day, uh, you know, on what I'm up to and yeah, I would absolutely, you know, love your support, um, on my book because it is something that I, I'm, I'm really proud of, but truly I'm excited for people to, to see it as well. Right. To read it, to consume it and to share it with family and friends, because I think that, you know, um, I'm not at all about hoarding the knowledge. We really need to share that knowledge with our loved ones so that we can uplift those around us. Yeah, for sure. Absolutely. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to come on the show. It was a pleasure.

Thank you for inviting me. I appreciate it. And that was episode 350 of the More Money Podcast with Cindy Zuniga Sanchez. Make sure to check her out on our website, zero-basedbudget.com. And of course, Instagram at zero-based budget, as well as TikTok at zero-based budget. And of course, grab a copy of her brand new book, Overcoming Debt, Achieving Financial Freedom, Eight Pillars to Build Wealth. I will be giving away a copy of it. So just stay tight and I'll find I'll let you know how to win. And also, I mean, this is kind of the final week or two where you can enter and then I'm closing the contest. And then I will choose a lucky winner or lucky winners in the new year. So I will share more info about that in just a hot second. But make sure to

also check out the show notes for this episode in In case you don't know, every episode has a home on my website, JessicaMorehouse.com. And so if you go to JessicaMorehouse.com slash 350, which is the episode number for this episode, you will find the show notes. I will include all the links that we discussed, things you can find more about her, grab her book, enter the contest, all that good stuff. You can do that in the show notes. And if you want to find info about any episode you've ever listened to, all you have to do is go to jessicamorehouse.com slash podcast. It has all the episodes listed there. Or if you know the particular episode number, just go jessicamorehouse.com slash whatever that number of the episode is. So I've got some things to share with you because this is the final episode for this season. So do not go away. Just a few words I want to share about this season's podcast sponsor. This episode of the More Money

Podcast is supported by Desjardins. Do you feel valued at your financial institution? Because Desjardins is on a mission to enrich the lives of Canadians, help build stronger communities, and educate its members so they can confidently reach their financial goals. Not only do they offer one-of-a-kind customer care and offer a variety of financial services to fit your needs, as a cooperative, they put their members first. So if you're looking for an institution that's making an impact, look no further than Desjardins. To learn more about Desjardins and how they're making a difference, visit Desjardee.com. Okay, let's start with the good stuff. How to enter to win one of the many books I am giving away. So any author that has been on the show

that has a book that is out, I am giving away. And let's see, how many books am I giving away? 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 books. 10 books. You have a very good chance of winning one of them. So just go to jessicamorehouse.com slash contest. That is where you can find all of the books you can enter to win all of them. If you want, you will only win one. But your odds are good because a lot of people always think about entering and then they're like, I don't. And I say this also from personal experience because one of my first jobs was working for a newspaper and I was in charge of all the different contests that we did. And there really weren't that many that there's people that entered, but not as many as you'd think. Because I think everyone would

assume, oh, there's too many entries, I have no chance, you have a chance, this could be your chance. So enter to win jessicamorehouse.com slash contest. Now for the contest, I'm going to keep it up basically till the end of this month of December. And then I will close it down so no one else can enter. And then I will draw names in the new year in early January. And I will let you know by email. But you know, that's why I, you know, have to collect your email when you enter to win so I can let you know if you won or not. So make sure to enter. This is kind of the crunch time. Do it or lose it or don't, you know, or just don't win. So do it. Do it. It's the easiest thing you can do

today. But maybe you're not really, you know, care about the contest. You're just more interested in like, hey, just gearing up for the new year. New year, new me every year. I was just joking with some friends the other day. I'm like, every year, I'm like, new year, new me. And I'm like, do I really reinvent myself every single year? Sort of feels like that. But anyways, you know, it's always like for me, I always take it as an opportunity to, you know, do something new, healthy, you know, whatever the case, because it is a new year. So why not? So if you just want to look for some personal finance books to help you on whatever personal finance journey you find yourself in, I have a bunch of my favorite go-to recommendations on my website. If you just go to jessicamorehouse.com slash favorite dash things is where you can find it.

Or if you just go jessicamorehouse.com on the main menu, you'll see the link favorite things. And I've got a list of all the books you could possibly want. And not only that, just because I like to keep things organized. I've got them organized by American authors, Canadian authors, and UK authors, just because sometimes you're like, I want a Canadian book because, you know, I want them to talk about RRSPs and TFSAs. Or maybe if you're like, I actually don't really care about that. I'm more interested in just like the information than maybe you want a UK or American author, but I've got them all nice and organized on my website. So make sure to check that out. Not only author, but I've got them all nice and organized on my website. So make sure to check that out. Not only that, and I have shared this in some previous episodes,

but I'm telling you, this is kind of the last time I'm going to talk to you for a few weeks. If you also want to jumpstart your financial journey, I've got some budget spreadsheets that can help you that come with some very in-depth video tutorials to show you how to do it, how to budget, how to track your spending, how to track your net worth, all of the essential things that you need to do to get clarity with your money, track your progress over time, motivate you to keep checking, how's my money doing and things like that. You can find all of those things on my shop page, jessicamoorehouse.com slash shop is where you can find them. And lastly, reminder to you that I have a course, an online course called Wealth Building Blueprint for Canadians. It is a course that is focused on, you know, teaching Canadians investing, but also specifically passive investing. So if you want to do more with your investments, maybe you're using an advisor and you're in some high fee mutual funds and you hate your advisor because they talk down to you. And I say this because I've had that personal experience and a lot of people I've talked to have. You want to take control of your investments, whether that's

through a robo advisor or self-directed doing it on your own. But you have no idea how to actually implement that and what you should have organized so you can make some really smart decisions. This may be the course that you want to look into. You can just go to JessicaMorehouse.com slash course to look more into it and apply. So usually I think I end my seasons with like a solo episodes. I think that there's been several years. I'm not going to do that this year just because I need a break. I need I need my mind just to shut off for a little bit because, you know, sometimes you're just busy working and you just don't have time to think. So I haven't really had time to reflect on this year. And that's usually what those kind of episodes are. It's like a reflection or just

like sharing some thoughts. And I know I've got them. They're in there somewhere, but they're just not, they're not easy. They're not at the surface. They're deep down. I have to do some digging. And so I'm probably going to do one of those solo episodes at the beginning of next season, which will likely launch, oh gosh, probably mid-January. Still making sure it's not defined yet. But so in case you're wondering about that, no extra episode this season, but I will have a solo episode next season. But since this is the season finale of season 15, I mean, you know, some things to reflect is like first, I can't believe we've done seven years of this show. Some of you have been with me from the beginning and oh my gosh, even thinking back to some of those early episodes, it's been a journey. We've learned a lot, haven't we? We've

grown a lot. We've learned a lot. A lot of things have changed and happened, my goodness. And 15 seasons and 350 episodes. Those are some crazy, crazy milestones. And I just want to thank you for being on the journey with me, whether you've been with me since the beginning, whether you've just discovered me. Hi, and thank you. And I really appreciate you listening and supporting and sharing and DMing me or, or, you know, sharing on your Instagram stories. Like all of those things are just like, they mean a lot to me, whether you think they, you know, oh, she doesn't care. I really do. I love that. Or the emails I get, like they're really, really important to me. So I really, really want to say thank you so much for all that. And hopefully you will continue to support me as we enter season 16

of the show in just a few weeks. But I just want to say thank you. And I hope you have an amazing holiday season. And you, you know, take some time for yourself to also reflect, that's also kind of why I look forward to the holidays and the new year. There is kind of a moment where you can take a few days, go offline and maybe do some journaling or just make your vision board or whatever the case. But I always love doing that. So hopefully you have some free time to do some of that as well, because I always think that's kind of fun. But yeah, I hope you have a really great, you know, end of the year, because no matter how you started it and where you are right now, you should, you know, look at all the things that you did accomplish, you

probably accomplished a lot more than you think you did. And you should be proud of that you should give yourself that pat on the back that you absolutely deserve because life is not easy. You know, it is no matter your situation. There's always something. There's always something. of yourself, that pat on the back that you absolutely deserve. Because life is not easy. You know, it is. No matter your situation, there's always something, there's always something that's you have to work towards, or there's always a challenge. There is always a challenge. So, you know, be nice to yourself. And, you know, be proud of yourself for everything you've been able to accomplish, whether you think it's small, it's probably not small. And sometimes those small things have a big impact in the future. So, you know, that's just, you know, my little two cents and things I want to share with you. So to wrap things up, big shout out to two people who've

made this podcast so much easier for me to run throughout the last year or two years, really. First, my podcast editor, Matt Rideout, who I've been using for a while, and he's just wonderful. Thank you so much for just doing all the things that I can't believe I used to even try to do on my own. You are just such a blessing. And my sister, Sarah, who is my virtual assistant, who takes care of so many aspects of the podcast, like social media and the show notes and quality assurance and everything like that. Thank you so much for helping me. And I can't wait for us to keep chugging along in 2023. So I'm going to leave it there. Thank you so much for listening once again.

And I will see you back here in January 2023. See you soon. This podcast is distributed by the women in media podcast network find out more at women in media.network