More Money Podcast - 351 Why Frugality Doesn’t Have to Be a Bad Word - Jen Smith and Jill Sirianni, Hosts of The Frugal Friends Podcast

Episode Date: February 1, 2023

The More Money Podcast is back for Season 16! I can’t wait to kick off the new season by interviewing TWO guests, which is a rarity and one of the reasons that I’m so excited to share this episode at the top of the season! Jen Smith and Jill Sirianni, co-hosts of The Frugal Friends Podcast, are joining me today to talk about debt and why frugality is considered the bad F-word in finance. Jen and Jill are no strangers to debt since they’ve paid off a combined total of nearly $140k with their husbands. They approached their debt differently than some of the typical financial advice you'll hear the "gurus" sharing, which proved to them that personal finance solutions are not always one size fits all. Jen’s journey even inspired her to write The No-Spend Challenge Guide, a best-seller on Amazon. They now host Frugal Friends Podcast to help people overcome their impulse spending and transform the habits that cause them to overspend to live a better, more financially free life. In this episode, Jen and Jill share their debt journeys and the shame and guilt that comes with paying them off. We also talk about how habit-forming and learned behaviours from childhood play a big role in your finances. Lastly, Jen and Jill share why FOMO and social media can be a leading cause for overspending and how to counteract the need to spend by figuring out your "Why" for your money. For full episode show notes visit: https://jessicamoorhouse.com/351 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello, hello, hello, and welcome back to the More Money Podcast. This is your host, Jessica Morehouse, back in the recording studio for 2023, Season 16, you guys. And I am so excited to be back. I hope you enjoyed your winter holiday break. I got COVID and was sick for a little while. And then my husband got sick. Not at the same time, annoyingly. He actually, we lived on separate floors for a good 10 days while I recuperated and he was totally fine. And then we had to change our flights to Vancouver for the holidays and went a week late. And it was weird because everyone was done with Christmas, but we just got started. And yeah, and then we came back and then my husband got sick. And you know, it was a rocky start to the year and it is what it is. But I'm excited to be

totally COVID free and totally excited to be back for season 16 of the show. I've got an amazing lineup of guests this season, as always, but I really wanted to kick this season off with two guests, and I hardly ever do episodes with two guests at the same time, who are just the most lovely, positive, inspirational women who, it was just, I loved recording this episode with them, and I know you're going to love listening to it. It is going gonna make you feel so good, get you right in the mood to tackling your finances and just feeling good about life and yourself because you are amazing. So I've got Jen Smith and Jill Sirianni from the frugal friends podcast. So if you maybe you already listened to them, and now they're on my show, which is very exciting. So a little bit about them in case you don't know. So

Jen and her husband paid off $78,000 of debt in two years, which led her to write the No Spend Challenge Guide, which is a bestseller on Amazon. And Jill and her husband paid off $60,000 of debt by getting creative with their living situations and side hustles. They actually lived in an RV and house sat for an entire year and have done some interesting side hustles like mobile bartending and flipping their RV. And then they started the Frugal Friends podcast to talk about things like debt and overcoming impulse spending and ultimately just transforming the habits that cause us all to overspend, but in a super positive and non-judgmental mindset and lens, which I'm telling you, in the frugal space, I'm almost like don't

like the word frugal anymore because I feel like when you go down that rabbit hole online and look into all of these niche blogs or social media accounts are all about frugality. It can get a bit extreme and crazy. It reminds me of like, do you remember that show Extreme Couponers? Yeah. No. Or there's some other one. And I don't think it was about being extremely frugal. This is like 10 years ago. I just remember someone dumpster diving to get a teapot for their

girlfriend. And I'm like, this is too far now. This is getting, what are we making TLC? What is happening on this television show? So I'm super excited to have them on the show to talk about things that honestly make most of us uncomfortable and how we can start talking about these in a helpful and, you know, just comfortable, happy way, if that makes sense, to, you know, start us off on the right foot in this new year of 2023. So you're going to love this episode. So let's get to that interview with Jen and Jill from The Frugal Friends. Welcome, Jen and Jill to the More Money Podcast. I'm so excited to have you both on. What a treat to have two guests in one episode. I'm so thrilled and

fellow podcasters. I'm so thrilled to have you both on the show because I feel like the topics that you are really known for that you love to share with your own audience are probably the most important topics like that we can explore with what's going on in the world, which is really frugality and intentional spending and debt, paying it off, living with it or living with living with debt, quite honestly, because both of you have, you know, really personal experiences with both. So, Jenna, I actually want to start with you. So you and your husband famously paid off seventy eight thousand dollars of debt in only two years, which is an incredible feat. And that also, I guess, inspired you to write the No Spend Challenge Guide, which is a bestseller on Amazon. So let's

kind of go back a little bit, talk about your kind of origin story a little bit. What happened to kind of get into that debt and what motivated you or what helped you figure out a plan to get out? Yeah. So I spent several years with just my personal like $50,000 of student loan debt. And I was making probably just south of $40,000, maybe closer to $35,000 a year. So having that amount of debt, and I had a car loan, so it just felt paralyzing. And so I've spent years kind of ignoring it because every time I would look at it, I would get anxiety. And the only way I could live my life without anxiety was to ignore it. And I was personally offended because my income was about to double and I had plans for that income and they included vacations and not fiscal responsibility. So I also felt guilty because I had double the amount of debt that he had. And I was perfectly fine ignoring it, continuously ignoring it.

So we had this, you know, sit down conversation as engaged couples do. And he very graciously challenged me to think not 20 years ahead, not even 10 years ahead, but just like five years ahead, just a couple years ahead about what do you really want to be doing in five years? And how much easier could that be if you didn't have this one thing, if you didn't have the student loan debt? And I did have dreams that I wanted to accomplish in five years and realized that I didn't want to be beholden to an employer. I wanted flexibility in my employment and in my lifestyle. Flexibility is super important to me. And I realized in that moment that if I had debt, I would never have the flexibility that really made me happy. And so that was kind of the turning point where I was like, okay, if we do this, I'm going to go all in because we thought

it was going to be five years. Like that was the plan, $ eight thousand dollars in five years. And I didn't know a lot about personal finance or money. So I was like, OK, well, we're doing this. So I guess everything we do has to surround this. And we just went all in. And I used to describe myself as like a very like all or nothing type of person, like as a personality trait. And now I realize it was a coping mechanism because I was completely miserable. And I thought that was the way you just did debt payoff. And now that I have like five, six years of distance between me and my debt realized that that wasn't the only path to it. And so, yeah, paying off $78,000 in two years sounds very sexy. It makes for a great headline, but it wasn't the healthiest way to do it. And the shame that I felt like whenever I made a purchase

or the guilt I kept feeling about my debt for two years straight and not knowing how to come out of that afterwards and be like, OK, now I'm not a bad person. Like it was it was really confusing. And so we share a lot of tips on frugal friends, like how to save money and how to how to do this stuff. But I think even more so we share that this path is unique to you and your season. And that, yeah, you could go all out like I did and get there fast. Or you can find another route and get there with fewer scars. I'm curious, you mentioned there's a lot of feelings of like shame and guilt, shame about having the debt, guilt about spending any penny. Where do you feel like that stemmed from? Was it, because I mean, I totally relate to that. I used to feel that way too.

Or even if I didn't have debt because I had a very small student loan, wanted to pay it off, I still felt guilty about spending money. I felt guilty when I wasn't extremely frugal. And with perspective now, a lot of it was the content I was consuming, the experts that I was listening to that were very tough love. It was very popular at the time and it took a long time to shake off. I'm curious if you had a similar experience or

where that came from for you. Similar. Yeah. All of the reading that I was doing online was or listening to in podcasts was either demeaning people who spent money or telling you how to spend as little as possible. spend your discretionary income on that and feel good about it and do it guilt-free and then just say no to the things you don't value as much until you increase your income and you can add more things that you like. Nobody was saying that. They were just saying, don't spend. Just stop spending. Absolutely. And Jill, I know you have a similar story in that you were also able to pay off $60,000 of a debt in a short amount of time. What was your experience? And I'm assuming that's what kind of bonded you to Jen. They had similar kind of experiences, but then also, you know, it also sounds like once you were able to reach that goal, you're like, now what? So do you want to kind of share a little bit more about, you know,

what was your journey like? Yeah, sure so it mine actually was not a quick journey or a clean one my debt payoff journey included taking on some debt in the process eyes wide open honestly I know it's something that's not talked about too often debt it can kind of become the absolute enemy and evil. But reality was for me, some debt helped us to move forward and get at some of the financial goals that we had. And it benefited us not to stay stuck in that place. The goal always was to pay it off. But I graduated from my undergrad with about $33,000 of student loan debt, making about $24,000 a year starting out in the field of social work. So $33,000 might not sound like a lot of student loan debt, but when I was only making $24,000 a year, it was more than what

I made in a year. So that felt very overwhelming to me. But yet even in that process, we took out a loan for my husband to get a truck as he was starting his electrical business. We took out a loan in that process to be able to purchase an RV, which we lived in to cut our living expenses. And all of these decisions ended up making it possible for me to cash flow my master's degree. Again, eyes wide open with the debt that we took on and what the interest was going to be and how we managed it all. But what that meant was that approximate $60,000 of debt wasn't just one day I woke up and I realized this is the amount of debt that I had. It was one day I realized it's $33,000 of student loan debt. I'm going to start paying that off in that debt payoff. What else do I need to be doing? Okay, get the truck loan, get the RV

loan. And all of that ended up being paid off in seven years on our very low income. I would say there were many years that even combined for both my husband and I, we were only taking home about $30,000 a year. So it took a while. It was not fun or easy, but I will say, I think, you know, when Jen talks about some of the scars and the very true cost on her body and relationships of paying off what she paid off in two years, I do realize the slow and steady, I think, did provide some sustainability for me emotionally, although I was so thrilled when it was all gone. Yeah. But kind of just recognizing life season and that as long as I want to be in these nonprofit spaces and it being worth it to me for the work I get to do to make a low income. There's

just a reality that comes with that and how long it's going to take to become debt free as a result. But it still is possible. Yeah. And I think hearing a story like yours that you took seven years is actually kind of comforting because most people will crunch to the numbers like you did. And you're like, it's just not possible to do it in a shorter amount of time. But, you know, like you said, Jen, it was a great headline that you were able to do that in two years. That's exciting. That's motivating. When people see that, they're like, oh, maybe I can do that. So I love that. But I also hear the other side. They're like, but when I actually try to implement it for me based off my income, my cost of living, then I kind of get demotivated

because I feel like a failure if I don't do it in a radical amount of time. And I feel like the reality of it is, like you both kind of mentioned, it's a personal thing. But too often, we feel very influenced by society. There's headlines, what people are chatting about. We want to be a success. And it seems like we need to do everything immediately. But that's not life. Whether you're paying off debt or building wealth or just saving up that emergency fund, it takes time. But it's not very exciting to talk about being slow and steady. But that really is the reality of it. It's like if you want to achieve anything, it honestly takes time. Amen. Yeah, it does.

It does. And usually it's somewhere in the middle too. So when we thought it was going to take us five years, we got there and it took us two. But I know a lot of people will say that didn't even go as hard as we did. We'll say, hey, we thought it was going to take five. And once we actually started doing this and kind of like got better at spending and got better at earning income, we cut it down to three or four. And so a lot of the times it's somewhere in the middle. And we put so much pressure on ourselves to be the headline that sometimes we

can't be satisfied with just making small improvements. In the grand scheme of things, if your goal is to pay off your debt, that is the goal. What does it really matter if you do it in five years or two years? If you succeed in your goal, whether it takes you a little bit longer, that's still a success. But I think often, yeah, we put pressure based on our age or a specific timeline. And usually those numbers are arbitrary. You're like, where'd you even come up with that number? You're like, I don't know. And the journey means something because life is lived in the midst of that debt payoff. And we form habits and ideologies and perspectives and relationships in that entire time. And so that's also worth looking at what's the cost benefit analysis of this. Sure,

I could put my head down, deprive myself of everything and get this done in a jiffy. But what is that going to do to our emotional, mental, relational health? And what patterns have we then set for ourselves? That's not going to be an easy thing to reroute now that the debt's paid off. Oh, suddenly I'm going to let my foot off the gas. It usually doesn't happen that way for us. So I think we also want to look at the journey matters, the things that we are building inside of ourselves, how we're equipping ourselves to make wise financial choices are happening in the midst of the debt payoff and they will follow us after the debt payoff. And yeah, even like I always kind of give

the example of like, you know, fitness and physical health. If there's no diet, crash diet, that's going to work long term. So why would doing some sort of crash diet with your finances be the solution? But I think it's often because it's painful. You know, it is painful dealing with your financial struggles. And we just want to get it done as quickly as possible. But like you both said, it's just there are some ramifications that I don't think be put into that calculation that are, you know, like, like I said, it's like I had to do some work on myself to unlearn some really bad habits that I thought were good because I'm like, oh, look how frugal I am. And I'm like, ooh, that actually is preventing you from doing some other good things. And there's some things you didn't know. You have some other issues that you need

to work through. I'm curious, though, since you mentioned how important the journey is, which I completely agree, what were some things that were positive things that you learned on your journeys? The one, the biggest thing I think, and this came from the book, The No Spend Challenge Guide that I wrote. I originally did that because I was just trying to save as much money as possible. It was literally a race to the bottom to see how little I could spend.

And what I actually got out of it was, sure, maybe I put an extra $100 to $300 towards debt in that month. But what I actually got out of it was it forced me to pause before I made habitual spending purchases to think about why I was doing it. And I thought I was already frugal because I was buying generic. And I would get the tall at Starbucks instead of the grande. I thought I was crushing it,

but I didn't stop to think, do I actually need this thing on sale that I'm buying? Could I meet this need in buying this coffee in some other way? Am I just going, I'm ending up in this drive-through just because I happen to be on this road at a certain time of day and I don't know how I got here in this drive-thru line, you know? It forced me to have to think about those. And that was the biggest thing that I took away from those two years. It was not like the logistical or the math things. It was for the first time having to figure out is, do I want this because I'm being told on social media that it's cool or on TV that it looks good? Or do I really want it? Is it really me? I had to figure out who am I? Yeah, totally. What about you, Jill? Oh, similar to my debt payoff journey. My answer is not as clean and crisp as Jen says. She's so good at just like harnessing it all and summarizing. And I'm like, how do I pick just one?

I think there's so many things that the debt payoff journey instilled in me. But I think, I guess if I were to boil it down, it would be awareness. There's a lot that gets connected to that. But I think if we were to look at those who choose to ignore their debt versus those who choose to look at it and pay it off, I think there's an awareness that comes. And that can quiet some of the fears and anxieties that really ignoring something actually builds in us. And then that for me led to creativity in the way that I lived life and how I stewarded all of my resources, not just my finances, problem solving, thinking critically, forming a habit that I actually enjoy now of looking at my finances twice a month and making decisions, either course

correcting or celebrating, sometimes a mixture of what the finances looked like that month. But I think just an awareness and a connection with that aspect of my personhood, that isn't so scary anymore. Now, I know one thing and I really liked how you just I haven't really seen the term before, but it makes a lot of sense that you obviously are the frugal friends and on your website use the term modern frugality. And I'm like, Oh, that is so interesting. What does that mean to you guys? I definitely feel like I have my own just personal definition because I had to redefine what frugality was because the prior definition I realized was not healthy for me. So what about

you guys? What is modern frugality? How can we kind of embrace frugality in a more healthy way than I think what used to be presented? We love this question because it is like the F word, the bad F word of personal finance is frugality. I know it used to be cool like a decade ago and then it became uncool when all the crypto bros started popping up or something. Which is unfortunate for us because we consider ourselves very cool people. So we are. You are a self-proclaimed nerd though, Jen. I am. Come on. We're guests.

Come on. We're very cool. And we love frugality. So we love this new definition that we've kind of adapted from Wikipedia and other sources that is really being a good steward of your limited resources. While money in itself is not limited, you can always earn more. The number on your paycheck, you legally can't change it. The number in your bank account, it's there until you put more in or take some out. So to that extent, it is limited. It is finite for the day or week. And that's not even your most limited resource. Your time is limited. Your natural resources are limited. Your physical space, like your house ain't growing unless you're

buying more. So it's all of these resources, being good stewards of it and everything seems to touch money in some way. So that's kind of the definition of frugality that we say. It's a much more freeing way to live than to think that spending well means not spending at all. Because like what other thing is doing it well means not doing it at all. Like even in golf, like you want to, you know, take as many as few strokes as possible, but you got to practice your strokes a lot. Yeah, sure. I'm never going to make a golf reference. I'm like, do you play golf? I haven't.

Hopefully she understands enough about golf to do an illustration. I don't, but I assume that you have to practice. Yes. I love that. I'm not a golf expert, but I love that. Even though a low score means you're winning. You still got to do it. It's the same with spending. You have to spend money and look at all the things money touches. It's a skill that you can do well without going broke. Jill, do you have anything to share? I would just say when we think about the modern version of frugality and the way that we are trying to shift the mindset around it is kind of attacking some of those things that we might have previously thought about frugality, myself included. If you

were to listen to the Frugal Friends podcast from like day one up until now, you will see an evolution of our mindset around frugality. I was still in my debt payoff journey when we started the podcast, and I'm since nearly three years out from paying off my debt. And so I think I definitely grew up with a grandmother who was raised during the Depression and frugality meant washing out Ziploc bags and thrift store shopping, which mind you, I do still enjoy. I do think buying secondhand is the best way. But also it was about getting the best deal as possible, not to mention whether or not you actually needed that thing or who you were potentially harming in the process of saving a penny. And so I think a lot of times there's an association of frugality with cheap,

and we argue that cheap is the antithesis of frugality, that cheap takes advantage of people, whether we're talking about people's labor or time or their money, just trying to get a free meal. Who cares if it means our friends are picking up the bill? this idea of, like Jen said, stewarding all of our resources well and aligning that with our values, taking the guilt and shame away from some of these money decisions and making these decisions around what we actually value. It's not about deprivation. It's about what can I absolutely say yes to because it's super important to me. And then what's left over that I can ruthlessly cut and say no to because it's no skin off my back. I don't actually value it. Like I think it's really going back to what we kind of touched on before is getting away from this idea that to be good with money or to undo some of the maybe, you know, quote unquote bad

that you did with your money, you have to take an extreme approach. And I think that was kind of the messaging we've been given for a long, you know, a long time. You know, I know you mentioned on your website, it's like, you know, extreme couponing is over. And I'm like, oh, man, I remember that show. And I loved it just for the entertainment value. But then when you really look at it, you're like, what is actually happening? You were getting a bunch of stuff that you don't need. You don't need that much toothpaste or Coca-Cola. And a lot of this stuff wasn't, yeah, healthy products. They were like, what is actually happening? You were getting a bunch of stuff that you don't need. You don't need that much toothpaste or Coca-Cola. And a lot of this stuff wasn't, yeah, healthy products. They were like, you know, super manufactured, high sugar. And they just, but it, you know, it was just like, ooh, but look, I paid $10 for it. You're like, but you spent like all week just working on this one grocery haul. It just doesn't make sense at all. Because you were

really not thinking you're, you're spending all this time making a plan on how to get all this stuff, but you're not really thinking about do you even need all this stuff? No. Yeah. And we don't have to be an extreme couponer to see that pop up in our own lives. Sometimes it can just be about the the thrill of getting a deal without actually evaluating or assessing if that deal on that thing is actually a thing that I want. And so we can fall victim to this as well, or it's the, oh, I mindlessly bought something that was advertised to me by this Instagram person that I follow. Again, without any thought given to, but is that actually something I need? Is that actually going to make my life more efficient?

Or will that benefit me or align with my values? We can just make these decisions for the thing itself rather than paying attention to ourselves in the process. Absolutely. And one thing I feel like this was in a lot of books before it was just like instead, and it's, I mean, it's not bad, but it was the idea when you're about to make a purchase to be more mindful, think about do I need this? Or do I want this? And sometimes then that makes you feel bad if you just want if you can afford it, but you want it. So you should only spend your money on needs, which like, well, that's just not you know, life, you can have fun and spend your money. And now I've kind of shifted my mindset to ask myself, is this hindering or

helping me reach my goals, which is such a more positive way to think about it? Or is this helping me grow my net worth or reduce my net worth? So it's like, if you're getting into further debt because of consumerism, well, then it's not helping you grow your net worth, if that's one of your overall goals. But it takes time to really, and listening to people like you, to reframe that because so much of this is ingrained in us either from the content we've consumed over years or just from hearing it from our friends and family since we were young. And it's hard to kind of unlearn some stuff. I'm curious because I talk a lot about on this show about how our upbringing really does have such a huge impact on how we approach money into adulthood. Were there some

things that on your journeys you had to unlearn? You're like, wow, I didn't even realize I did that. That was so automatic. I don't think that's something that I want to continue with. Absolutely. Again, it has shifted for me. And a lot of that is this community, being in the space, talking about it, your listeners exposing yourselves to these kind of ideas. It will benefit us. But I would say one of the biggest examples of a shift for me of growing up, what I was taught about money into today is just is that thrill of the deal. And you only get something if it's on sale or you just don't buy at all. But what that then instilled in me is I really wanted to go shopping. I wanted to get things. There was something about collecting items and then especially getting a deal for those items

that that became an activity for me. It wasn't the shopping at all the high-end luxury brand stores. It was going to yard sales and thrift stores and just getting whatever like piqued my interest because it was only a quarter and just collecting things that will collect dust in my tiny little apartment. And I didn't actually value these things. It was just an activity and it was the thrill of the deal. None of it was actually serving me or benefiting me or actually a value of mine. And so it wasn't for me until the extreme lifestyle of RV living, where I couldn't bring more things into my home that I realized I don't actually care about like doing thrift, do like doing thrift stores. It's like a verb for me, like thrift store shopping

as an activity that's, that wasn't, I thought that it would be such a loss. Like I don't have room to pull stuff into my 170 square feet. And then you took that away because my lifestyle demanded that I could no longer do it. And I realized, no, I like being out in nature and going for walks and getting together with friends and eating meals together and being content with the way that my environment looks and not trying to find more decor to fill it for 25 cents. And that has, I'm no longer living in an RV, but that has carried with me and I think has been a redefinition and a new framework of thinking about things and has challenged me to re-examine the things that I think I enjoy doing.

Do I actually? What happens if you remove it? What were the things that I actually enjoyed about it? And for me, I still go to thrift stores and yard sales. I love it, but only when I need something, only when there's something that I'm lacking in the renovation process now in my new home that I want to buy secondhand. That's where the true value is, is recycling, reducing waste. And yeah, it's nice to, you know, not have to pay full price for something. Yeah. Amen. So yeah, lots of similarities to that story. But I think like to take it, I think more specifically for me, to think that spending money and shopping is the hobby, is the way to have fun. And I even, I know I'm not alone in this because I got an email once from a listener who was like, so I know you have an episode about like how to make

frugality fun. And what episode was that? Because I'm just like not finding frugality to be fun. I love spending money. And I was like, honey, you are me. I am you. But like, what's the actual fun part about handing over your card? Like, what's the fun thing about going to the mall and buying lotion at Bath and Body Works, which we live in Florida. It's like 100% humidity. You don't need lotion here. And like, what is the fun? Like, yes, there's like an endorphin hit in that second and then it's gone and you're left with stuff. But if you think about like what is actually fun, it's not the act of handing over your card and spending money. It's going out with a friend and browsing. It's the actual activities and the relationships we have that surround that stuff. And so how can we have the actual true fun that doesn't involve handing over the credit card?

And again, it doesn't mean cutting everything. It's not deprivation. But if we're realizing I'm only doing this for entertainment purposes, that's where we can reevaluate. Oh, is there a better way to be spending my time that's actually going to be more beneficial for me? Yeah. Yeah. No, absolutely. I feel like and I think, yeah, the issue with that, a lot of us, especially women, have to unlearn that or shift our mindset because of the stereotypes that we were brought up with. Women were shoppers. I mean, I remember distinctly when I was a kid, there was Mall

Madness, this board game that I actually did just recently buy as an adult. It's fun. But I always wanted it because I'm like, oh my gosh, how cool, a board game about going to the mall and shopping. And then also when you're a teenager or middle school, what do you do with your friends? You go to the mall and you walk around and you shop and you buy stuff. And so if that is like we start that habit young, it is very hard to shift. Especially now, it's easier than ever to go shopping because you don't even have to leave your house. So it could be a social activity. It could just be something and I catch myself doing this all the time. You're watching a TV show that you're like, I'm a bit bored and you

get on your phone and you open up an app of one of your favorite stores and you just start scrolling, putting things in your shopping cart and you mindlessly or you don't even remember. Like, I mean, not that this happens often, but there has been times where I've been, you know, get a package. I'm like, I don't even know what that is. I don't know what I ordered. fun activities are translated to where we have, there are cult followings for brands and people will like be in conversation or find or relate to each other via this like love for this brand or for this item or something. And so we're seeing like a shift while Gen Z may not be going to the shopping mall. They are on Instagram and wherever, TikTok and wherever else they talk. TikTok, that's where they talk. Yeah. Talking about brands that they love and will buy whatever comes out. I follow Disney adults a lot.

And they buy anything and everything Disney. And girl, I love a good trip to Disney. But there is this shift that we're seeing to this devotion to brands that is is more pervasive than you might realize yeah it goes deep especially with like the Disney thing like I have a friend who I mean I don't think she's been to Disney for a while but growing up and she had a very big family lots of brothers and sisters and half siblings and stuff and they'd always go to Disney and not that i mean she's actually pretty frugal so she actually somehow escaped that kind of trap but when i've been to disneyland it is actually while i was like yeah there's rides

and activities but most of it's stores and restaurants and so you're there all day you're gonna buy something or you see people wearing their disney garb you're like maybe we should buy like everyone's a walking advertisement as you're in the park and you're like to buy something or you see people wearing their Disney garb. You're like, maybe we should buy it. Like everyone's a walking advertisement as you're in the park. And you're like, it's kind of hard to not get into that mode. And it's, that's just Disney, but there's lots of other things. Like even like I was at a Toronto Raptors game the other day. And I mean, I got free tickets and it was a wonderful game. They won, but I don't really know anything about basketball.

I just realized there's, I didn't know there was only five people on each team on the court at the same time like I thought there'd be more players no there's only 10 I didn't know that's how little I know but when I was there everyone's wearing their garb and they and I literally almost wanted to buy like a hat or a shirt I'm like why like you don't it's just because you see other people have it and you you think you should be part of it you know yeah it's this need to build uh it's like this tribal need to build community and if we can't do it at the mall um we'll do it in some other way and it's figuring out how do I do that how do I don't want to fight against my psychology and my like nature that craves this. So how do I do it in a healthy way, in a way that honors what I value, not just what I happen to be around?

Do you have anything to say? It seemed like you were you did and then I didn't want to interrupt you because last time I'm like, oh, shoot. She's going to say something. No, that's all right. Jen, Jen did say it I I think it it's not about saying oh how do I avoid this how do I not play into this there is a deep sense of belonging and wanting community but I think it is that matter of identifying the community that is, again, beneficial for us and being able to feel a confidence and an assurity in ourselves to be able to say no, to recognize what's happening in ourselves, be aware of the ways in which

marketers and advertisers will build upon that reality in us of you want to be a part of something and so you should buy this thing to be a part of this and this is how everyone's making their lifestyle more efficient and okay if it actually helps you then great allow that advertisement and the 20% off they're offering to work for you. But if not, I think that's where that what Jen described her takeaway is in her debt payoff journey of that pause, the ability to recognize what's happening of, okay, this is what the marketer is trying to get me to do. This is what it's creating inside of me. How do I want to respond? Do I want to go get that jersey that matches

everybody else? Will that be fun? Will that enhance my time? Will that help me connect with other people here? Is it just do I have the money for it? And do I want to do it? Okay, fine. There's no shame in that. Or is it? No, actually, I've got no value for that. And it's going to be wadded up in the back of my closet, like probably grow mold on it. So no, I'm not going to. I think that's the biggest takeaway here is not to fight against our nature, but to allow it to inform us and then make wise decisions as a result. Absolutely. Now, the last thing I kind of wanted to touch on, because we kind of mentioned it, but I wanted to dig deeper into it, is the shift that we've seen, I've definitely seen over the past decade in the personal finance community of kind of anti frugality. And usually it is is the messaging is, if you focus too much on frugality, paying off debt, budgeting those aspects, then you were

ignoring wealth building, investing, those kind of strategies. But I mean, no, they're all part of the whole same thing, which is overall financial planning. I'm just curious what your kind of thoughts are, because I've definitely had some like interest. I'm like, okay, that's interesting. I get where you're coming from. But I think a lot of it too, is the idea that if you focus too much on like cutting back and budgeting and living on less, then you were that's like a limiting belief on how much more you can earn how much more you can uh have you can have that big house in that car it's a limiting belief just manifest and whatever the case what are your kind of perspectives on that like is it are you can you do both or if you focus too much on one stream is it too difficult to focus on the other like all these other people are talking about? Where do I begin? Yeah, that's what makes frugality an F word in the personal finance space

is its association with the scarcity mindset. And that's so unfair to frugality because it is intentional spending. Talk to any financial advisor that works with high net worth individuals and they will have a story of a family who's making really great money, maybe in the millions, and is still spending the millions they bring in, or working with multiple six-figure earners who are still spending multiple six figures. It happens to everyone. Lifestyle inflation is not reserved for any income level. And so you have to have the skill of spending intentionally. Yes, that shifts if you're making from somebody who's making 40 grand a year to somebody who's making 400 grand a year. They're not going to have the same lifestyle. And if you

are lower income, you have every availability to you to increase your income. We have talked to teachers who have stayed in the field of education and created six-figure incomes. Jill is like a walking testimony for all social workers that you can double your income in a short amount of time and stay in the field. There is nothing that prevents you from focusing on both increasing your income and being wise with your spending. And my response to this is, yes, they're all right. Everyone's right. And it is the both and. I think in society, we are being sold this binary myth that it's either or. And that's salacious. That gets hot takes on TikTok and it makes people mad, which stirs the most conversation. And we just love it. I don't

know why we love it. We just love to look at things that are burning and that's what that's what the binary myth is and we are here to say both and and there's so much freedom and flexibility it's why we're talking about modern frugality because there does we're putting in so much work over here jessica redefining frugality for people like defending this F word, one of our favorite F words, because it's not about the word. It's about the behaviors that people have attached to it and the mindsets people have associated with it. But we are saying it's both. And there can be people who are paying off debt and investing. There can be people who are paying down their mortgage and trying to pay off their house and looking towards retirement. It's not either or. And so that's my response.

The flack that frugality is getting, because as you can see in my story, I took on debt while paying off debt. There's so much freedom and flexibility to make decisions that are going to work for our finances. There isn't one size fits all. There isn't this path or the highway. There is an ability to curate what's going to be most beneficial for me, what makes sense for my living situation, my lifestyle, whether or not I have kids, whether or not I'm married, whether or not I live in a high cost of living area. There's so many factors and variables that go into personal finances. And it's just not either or. Yeah. Yeah, I agree. I mean, these salacious things and these extremes, they go viral. And that's why people push back.

Frugality is an easy target because nobody wants to deprive themselves and everybody wants to be a millionaire. But virality is rarely rooted in reality. You need both. And it's not the sexiest thing to do right now, but it will prove to be an essential element in the long term. Yeah. Like one thing I feel like I say often, or I think often anyway, is that if you want to really learn about how to improve your financial situation, you will be surprised at how boring it is. and that's just and it so it's our job to somehow try to make it a bit exciting but not be salacious and clickbaity and scammy because most

those things that you see on tiktok are just a big scam or just like that's they're not saying the thing that we're all thinking is you are not talking about the risk involved or the downside you're just talking about the upside um But at the end of the day, most things that work are very straightforward and simple and boring. And that's how I like to live my life. Very boring. Yeah. That's why I pretend to know about golf. Yeah. Golf came up so easily. It's boring as fuck, but you know what? It's effective and people love it. So much of life is chaotic. And if our finances became boring, I mean, how actually peaceful and restful does that sound to most of us? If our finances don't feel chaotic and overwhelming and fast paced, then that gives space for so much play in the rest of life. Life is hard enough. Let's

try to make the thing that is actually hard finance into something that's like not that crazy. Yeah. There's too many other things to worry about. Let's not have that be one of them. Before I let you go, I know you have some great resources. Obviously, you have the Frugal Friends podcast. Is there anything that you'd like to share so people can find more information about you and continue learning from you gals? Yeah. So again, yeah, wherever you're listening to this podcast, we have episodes twice a week. And then we also have a little spending makeover, a three-day spending makeover that kind of helps you create this foundation for values based spending. Kind of exactly like what we've just been talking about in this episode, where you can find your values, align that with

what you're spending in the past, and then make a plan for the future. And that's at frugalfriendspodcast.com slash makeover. And that's free because that's another favorite F word of ours. Free. Love it. Jill, anything you want to or like where can people find you guys on social media if you are on it? Oh, we're not great at social media. We are on Instagram frugal friends podcast is our handle. You know, you can you can at us you can do all the stuff you do on instagram i'm still learning right i'm at modern frugality on instagram and i don't post a lot but but when you do it's probably going to be the anti of all the other crap you see on instagram which is all about buy this so if

you want some positive influences on instagram follow you guys right yeah everyone's a commercial I know I know yeah I know I mean I love making money but you gotta balance it yeah exactly it's all about balance well thank you so much you two for for being on the show it was a pleasure having you on it was it was a double pleasure for having you both on at the same time I love this conversation so thank you again likewise Jessica thanks for having you both on at the same time. I love this conversation. So thank you again. Likewise, Jessica. Thanks for having us. Yes, thank you. And that was episode 351 of the More Money Podcast with Jen Smith and Jill Sirianni. Make sure to check out their show, The Frugal Friends Podcast. You can find it at frugalfriendspodcast.com.

You can also find them on Instagram at frugalfriendspodcast.com. You can also find them on Instagram at frugalfriendspodcast and on YouTube, youtube.com slash C slash frugalfriends. Also TikTok, tiktok.com slash at modern frugality, but modern. No, no, modern is spelt totally correctly. I like had a moment where I forgot how to spell the word modern. I'm like, isn't there an I in there? No, that's not how you spell that. So yeah, that's tiktok.com slash at modern frugality like normal. But I will include all these links so you can find out more about both of them and their podcast in the show notes for this episode, jessicamorehouse.com slash 351. And I'm not leaving things there because this is a special week. And I promised this at the end of last season, I am going to grace you.

I mean, please grace me. You know, I am coming back here for another episode tomorrow for a special solo episode. And please, please, please listen to it. It's a video or video. Gosh, where are we right now, Jessica? We're in a recording studio and there's a microphone in front of you. Focus. This is a special podcast episode that I'm going to be doing to give you a little life update about what's been going on with me. I rarely do that or I do that little snippets at on Instagram and my email is to see if any of you had any questions to ask me a little AMA. And I'm going to be spending most of that episode answering your very specific, like these questions got real specific about financial situations. So make sure to listen to tomorrow's special solo episode where I share a little bit about me and answer some of your questions. And if you like it, maybe I'll do some more of those AMA episodes. I think those are a lot of fun.

So that is really it for me. I hope you enjoyed this episode. And I hope you're looking forward to this season because I'm very excited. I've got a really great lineup of guests. If you want to know, I've basically been recording new episodes since the beginning of December. And I think I've got enough episodes to take us to, gosh, already mid-April. Look at me being all proactive and stuff. Also, too, don't be shy. If there's someone you'd like on the show, I'm always looking for some new ideas. Hit me up. You can email email me Jessica at JessicaMorehouse.com or hit me up in the DMs on Instagram where I am now finally verified. So you will never hear me again on this podcast talk about how there's some imposter. I'm sure there are imposters, but

I haven't been getting DMs from people being like, hey, is this you? Because I'm now verified on Instagram. Thank you, Instagram gods. But yeah, let me know on Instagram or however you want to contact me if you have an idea for a future guest. I love getting recommendations. So a big shout out to my podcast editor, Matt Rideout, and I will see you back here tomorrow for my solo episode. Have a good rest of your day. This podcast is distributed by the Women in Media Podcast Network. Find out more at womeninmedia.network.