More Money Podcast - 367 How to Get a Real Grip on Your Finances - Paco de Leon, Author of Finance for the People and Founder of The Hell Yeah Group

Episode Date: May 10, 2023

If we all have more access to financial information and advice than ever before, you'd think we'd all be making better financial decisions for ourselves. So why is it that so many of us still struggle with making the right choices and self-sabotaging our financial futures? That's what my guest Paco de Leon and I will be discussing on the More Money Podcast today, plus more from her book Finance for the People: Getting a Grip on Your Finances. Paco is an author, illustrator, and host of the podcast Weird Finance. She also founded The Hell Yeah Group, a financial firm dedicated to inspiring creatives to engage with their personal and business finances, and Hell Yeah Bookkeeping, a bookkeeping agency for creative businesses. In this episode, Paco shares why she actually never wanted to write a book and what changed her mind (and I'm so glad she did). She also shares why scarcity and consumerism go hand in hand and how our history with debt started well before the introduction of money. We cover so many topics and I can't wait for you to listen! For full episode show notes visit: https://jessicamoorhouse.com/367 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello, hello, hello, and welcome back to the More Money Podcast. This is your host, Jessica Morehouse, and this is episode 367. And oh boy, what, you know, past few days it has been. If you listened to last week's episode, then you know all about it because I shared the big news at the end of last week's episode. I also blasted it on my social media channels and sent it to my email newsletter list and pretty much told everyone I knew. The big news, which I've been honestly keeping secret, yes, for just, you know, the past few months, but really this whole journey started about a year ago. And I've been, I think, you know, leaving little breadcrumbs or, you know, Easter eggs or whatever they're called, you know,

since like a year ago, but I just could not share it. But yeah, I'm writing a book. That's the big news. I'm writing a book with HarperCollins Canada. I am beyond thrilled. It will not be out on bookshelves anytime soon. It will be sometime in 2025 because it takes a year to write and another year to edit and print. That is how books work. I mean, I know actually some authors have been chatting to on the podcast. They have actually been able to put out their books a lot quicker. But luckily, I have a lot longer to write.

Thank goodness, because there's a lot of writing and researching and interviews to do for this book. So I'll share a bit more at the end of this episode, especially about how you can potentially be in the book or contribute. So stay tuned to that. But speaking of book writing and authors, I have an amazing new author on the show today, such a huge fan. I'm so excited that she said yes to be on the show. Her name is Paco de Leon. She's the author of Finance for the People, which we're going to dive into in this episode. But she is also the host of the Weird Finance podcast and the founder of the Hell Yeah Group. And just to give you an idea of what she's all about. So like I mentioned, she's the founder of the Hell Yeah Group, which is a financial firm that's dedicated to inspiring creatives to engage with their personal

and business finances. And she also has Hell Yeah Bookkeeping, which is a bookkeeping agency for creative businesses as well. And her career experiences in banking and business consulting, financial planning, and wealth management have informed her financial philosophies, which we'll learn more in this episode. But she's also a TED speaker and her work has been published or featured in the New York Times, Bloomberg, Vice, Time and a bunch of other publications. And she's also been on NPR. So I know you're going to love this episode as much as I did, because honestly, she really does bring something new to the table. And that's what I think this podcast, especially this season, is all about bringing people, you know, who are in the finance world,

who are doing something different and really pushing forward, you know, personal finance in a new and different way and impactful way. So I know you're going to love it. So without further ado, let's get to that interview. Welcome Paco to the Morrowind Podcast. I'm so excited to have you on this show to talk about your book, Finance for the People and all the exciting things that you're up to. Thank you so much for having me. It's truly my pleasure. Oh, thank you so much. I loved your book. I mean, I think honestly, what drew me to it was the name. I'm like, ooh, Finance for the People. That sounds different.

That sounds new. I like this. Let's do this. And I've been talking to, I mean, I feel like honestly I'm based out of Toronto, Canada, and I see your book at every bookstore. So yay, you're very popular in Canada. That's so cool. Isn't that cool to know, right?

You're like, oh, I had no idea. Oh, yeah. Every time I go to the bookstore, I'm like, oh, I see your book in the finance section. Good for you. But also I've been talking to a lot of people and they've also been reading your book. So I think it's one of those books that just has a life after initial, you know, push and have its own life and have its own experience impacting people for many years to come. So I'm glad that that ball has started rolling. Yeah, it is. So I'm curious, because you definitely have a very different kind of viewpoint when it comes to finance. And you know, you did work in the industry for a number of years. When, when you were starting to kind of

craft this book and put it together, what did you want to, I mean, I probably asked this to lots of finance authors, but I'm like, what did you want to make sure that you said in this book that was different than all the other books that I'm sure you've read? And you're like, I've read everything. I need to do something different. I didn't want to write a book. Let me start with that because it is quite a large task. And I felt like there was a lot that needed to be said. And that's why I did it. Because you know this, the personal finance industry is a very saturated market, right? A lot of the actual information is straightforward.

Like literally chat GPT can now tell you what to do. I know. A lot of it is really, you know, 50 2030 rule, all that good stuff. It's, it's available. And what I was realizing after many years in the industry, and then going off on my own working with clients talking to creative professionals and creative business owners, was that there's still this really big gap between having that information and then our behaviors. And I've just been exploring that. Like, why are we acting outside of our best interest? What's going on? And I really wanted to tell that story. And I wanted

to invite people in and let them know, hey, we have the information, but that doesn't necessarily mean that we're going to do the right thing. What's going on there? It's our emotions. It's our baggage. It's so much that we need to unpack. It's our narratives. It's our identities. It's the stories that we tell ourselves on loop. And I really wanted people to have the opportunity to explore that aspect of them, to then make incremental change in their own lives, make a positive impact on their finances. And then my greatest dream is that

once they've done the work there, they realize, oh, these skills, what I've done, it's kind of like an overlay. I can do that in other areas of my life. I can improve my relationships with other people. I can improve my relationships with my physical body. I can improve my relationships with myself and how I talk to myself. So that's really what I was hoping people were going to pick up. Yeah, it's yeah, I felt reading that it's like more than a finance book. It's like the lessons that you kind of dive into are very applicable in other areas of your life, which I think just goes to show that it is just a bigger, there's a bigger picture at play. And I

really like I know, just starting with the first chapter, I really liked it. Because it really is like, let's go deep and talk about some things that you've probably never heard of. Like, what was it that and I'm probably gonna get this wrong, like the shadow form or what was the shadow person or what was it? Shadow selves. It's Carl, yeah, Carl Young, a psychiatrist coined this term, your shadow self. You can kind of see this theme too. If you look at family internal systems, I think is another kind of therapy where you're, we are all a multitude of conflicting desires within our oneself. And to allow yourself to have space for those conflicts is so, so healthy and so, so necessary and beautiful. And it can be painful to confront those things. But if you zoom out,

if you can do that within yourself, and then you zoom out and you look at society at large, we're contending with that. There's people on both sides all around the world, all around all the countries of all the world. We're fractured, right? There's these competing ideas. And it's not that one person's reality is more real than another person's reality. We have to have space to recognize and realize that we're all going through different things at the same time. And there could be many truths at once. And that's really what I wanted to highlight on a personal level, on a larger scale. And I think that message, if that message can really, people can internalize that message, I think the world would be a better place. Yeah, absolutely. I'm curious, where did you get kind of the ideas for this or inspiration? Was it

working with clients? Was it having lots of different conversations than probably other financial planners in the industry? I definitely think working with creative people, always being surrounded by creative people has had a huge impact on my perspective, my approach to finances in general. But I think like what I've noticed is there's a lot of people who have historically been marginalized that their voices are now being amplified. So you have LGBTQ plus folks, you have brown folks, you have women. We are finally like our voices are being amplified. And when you have a person like myself, who's intersectional, right, I have all these different experiences. My whole life, I've had to look at the person across from me and understand

that they might struggle trying to pick up what I'm throwing down because of maybe the way I look or what they believe versus who they think I am. And so I've had to approach my entire life thinking about their perspective. And that's really what shaped this book. That's really what shaped my philosophy is my, I didn't have an opportunity not to look at multiple perspectives at once. And I really think like all of the people whose voices are being amplified right now, that is really the lesson I think we are teaching society at large in this moment. Yeah, that's such an interesting perspective. And I feel like, I mean, I've made it a point, especially over the past several years to make sure I make a

concerted effort to have different types of people on the show, because I was falling into certain categories of just, you know, you get lazy, you're like, Oh, I'll just have this person on the show. And then you realize there's a lot of white people on my show. And they have a lot of the same perspectives. And we need to broaden that. But that's so interesting. I hadn't really thought about that. A lot of the especially I'd say, the personal finance books that maybe I started reading like 10, 15 years ago, they never, yeah, they didn't have the lens of thinking about money from someone else's point of view. And that's sometimes I think why people struggled. They'd read those books and they just couldn't apply that information because it was only giving you one person's, there's like,

this works for me. I'm like, well, yeah, you're a well-to-do privileged white man who had a lot of opportunities that somehow I just can't get myself. And it's probably because we're different people, different experiences have different, you know, obstacles to get over. And I think that was the biggest struggle for people for a long time. And as more people like yourself are being more empathetic and being able to kind of shine a light on, hey, there's lots of different people that come from lots of different places and different perspectives and different life experiences. We need to show that so that you can be seen in someone else's story, right? That's absolutely it.

I can't remember who said this quote, but it was like, yeah, many, many perspectives make up the entire picture. And we're just like living in a beautiful time right now where you and I can have a chat through this technology and we can record it and then everybody can hear it. And, you know, I think it's such a beautiful we're very lucky. It's a beautiful time to be able to be sharing our stories and our experiences right now. Absolutely. I want to, because you do kind of talk about this more later in the book, but throughout the book, really, your relationship, your like personal relationship with money. And I feel like that's definitely a topic that people are talking about more. And no one talked about that. That wasn't really a term, relationship with money. What is that?

But we all have our, you know, how we think about money. How do we feel about money? I'm curious, you know, what did you really want to get across in your book about how to build a more healthy relationship with money? Because most of us do not have a healthy relationship with money. I really wanted to emphasize kind of what we already talked about is the interconnectedness of everything. And it's really easy to believe that you can compartmentalize money in your life. And maybe if you studied economics and you're just really good at shutting down your emotions

and leaning hard into that rational side of your brain when you're approaching your finances, if you're like that, that's great. Then you probably make really good financial decisions. You are not compelled by your own emotions or by advertising that makes you feel crappy to act with your money in a way that is not beneficial to you. However, I would say the great majority of people, their relationship with their parents, those dynamics, observing those power dynamics, the fact that women in society have been treated

the way that we've been treated, there's the wage gap, which is a very real thing. The fact that, you know, many of us only a few generations ago didn't go to work, couldn't have a bank account, couldn't have a credit card, right? All of these things are like a giant sticky ball of wax. And that is our relationship with money. And again, it's like my own experience of not feeling like I was enough because I grew up queer and all the messaging around that is like, you're not, you're fundamentally flawed, buddy. That even impacted my ability to earn money for many years. So I was under earning for many years. And it took me a long time to recognize all the ways that I continued to propel that narrative forward, right?

Because, of course, there are systemic issues, but we do have agency in our lives. So it just took me a long time to recognize where my power lies, like what I could do, how I can rewrite these narratives, and how I can be representative for other folks to tell my story and to and to show them that we even in moments where it feels like your things are outside of your control, because you are not the one who made the rules, we are just existing in the system. You do have agency every moment of every day. Yeah. I mean, how can you really make any progress with your finances if in other areas of your life or your entire life, you don't feel like you're worthy, right? Then you're never going to ask for a raise. You're never going to quit your toxic job because you feel like this is as good as it

gets. It just impacts every area. But I feel like that sentiment is, I've heard that so many times. I used to feel like that for sure in pretty much every single job I've ever had. And I think it's pretty prevalent. But until you really think about it, and then be like, Oh, wow, yeah, that's something, then then you can start doing kind of the work. Another thing that you touch on in your book, which, again, it's a term that I feel like has been floating around and talked about a lot more often, which I think is good is, well, you know, people will say like the difference between scarcity and abundance. And, you know, people use other terms like I just, you know, we can use enoughness or sufficiency or what have you. And I feel like that is another thing that we don't talk enough about,

maybe just like regular folks, you know, you and me, about why it's important to identify if you do feel like this scarcity. And I'm curious, why do you feel like so many of us feel like, do you think it's partly because a lot of us didn't come from money? And so we're constantly in this hamster wheel generation after generation of always afraid of losing it all? I think there's just that idea of scarcity just really permeates the culture of consumerism, period. The way that we measure, like economics is the study of allocating scarce resources. It's right there in the definition. And, you know, when you think about why something valuable right now, like what are valuable things?

It's often scarce. Yeah, that's why it's so expensive because there's not much of it. So I think it's baked into how we live and it's baked into our modern society. It's baked into consumerism and it's just hard to go against the grain. It's hard to fight against this overwhelming vibe that we're all existing in. So I think that's the biggest challenge, really. Yeah. So is it possible to move from that place? But it's so ingrained in our culture and just our minds, this scarcity to move into a healthier kind of stage where it's not like for me, I always struggled with the idea of abundance. And that's because I've always struggled with scarcity. Abundance to me means there's too much. There's overwhelming, you know, stuff. And that's because I've always struggled with scarcity. Abundance to me means there's too much. There's overwhelming stuff. And that's almost as anxiety inducing as not having enough. Is there a way to get to a good middle ground is to just appreciate each moment fully. And I'm laughing

at how silly I sound right now. I like it. No, because it wasn't your book. I remember the term like gratitude is like the antidote, right? Gratitude is the antidote to scarcity. Yes. I'm just laughing at like, you know, people invite me onto their podcast to talk about money. And then I always I'm like, let's talk about gratitude and meditation. I jujitsu my way into just getting so weird. But here I am. And we're going to do that. Yeah. So how do we how do we fight against scarcity? And how do we try to move in towards abundance? And I think it's moment by moment. I think appreciating the things that money can't buy is kind of like the ultimate, I'm doing it. I'm, you know, I'm trying to go against the grain and, and live life on my own terms. And it's might not be, we might not be

able to do that Monday through Friday, 9am to 5pm. But you know, there are moments where it's gonna sound silly moments where you can take a walk and just appreciate the cool breeze or the sun shining on your face or a warm chamomile tea or a cold iced tea or a adorable dog who lets you pet them. There's, there's these moments that make life feel like life. And I think the more that we're present to that, the more that we can lean into that and give that meaning, then I think it's easier to then navigate life when it's, you know, crazy and you're overscheduled and you got to pay your bills. Yeah. I mean, it's so funny. I was thinking of just, yeah, the idea of like, oh, you know, some things are just priceless or, you know, the best things in life are free. And it's like, you know, the commercial that pops into my mind is like, I think it's a credit card commercial that one is like, some things are priceless. You're like, that is so messed up that that is the thing that I link that to, which is like consumerism somehow got in there into that messaging. I'm like, but the best things in life are free, but also use this credit card. It's I think that's the trickiest thing is like remembering that is like a universal truth. I think we all know that deep down. But then everything externally we see is the antithesis of that. And how do we how do we really Yeah, it's just a daily practice is something you just

have to like get used to. And I guess logging off social media wants to bloom in or blocking those ads or I don't know something like that might be something to do with it. But yeah, it's tricky. Now, obviously, you do go, you pretty much cover, I'd say, every single topic I could think of in this book when it comes to like how to get yourself organized with your finances. I also really appreciate all the different illustrations of the book. I always love a good little picture to make things a little fun. Now, you know, for me, I really loved how you did talk a lot about how to like protect yourself, like how to basically self-care for your money. And I think that's also something that I like to talk about on the show is, you know, rethinking the importance of financial planning or management, because those terms are

so boring and dry and have connotations associated with them. Why did you really want to hone into a few things? And how can you, I guess, maybe talk about them a little bit differently than some of those kind of, you know, the boring old stuff that we've seen forever when it comes to like emergency funds and credit cards? Like these things are important, but I think the messaging is getting lost in translation with just some of the old jargon that we're used to. I mean, I come from a traditional finance space. I worked as a financial planner. And so I learned under the wing of other financial planners of this is how you talk to clients.

And what I realized when I started to really lean in and I started my own firm and I'm working with creative professionals is that language it just doesn't land with them they're not interested in imagining a weird emergency and that is the reason why they need to have an emergency fund they're not it just that's not where they're thinking you know a creative professional in my opinion their job is to feel their job is to experience the human experience as they're thinking. A creative professional, in my opinion, their job is to feel. Their job is to experience the human experience as who they are and feel all of the feelings and then have a conversation or put out a piece of art that conveys that experience. And so when I think about how do I communicate to that person? Well, to me, it's very simple. It's I am also a feeling creature and I just should feel my feelings and experience what I'm experiencing and then try to convey that to them.

And it's weird that I can do that in what I think is an artful way through finance. But I guess that's my gift, Jessica. What can I say? Well, yeah. So you did you have a background not just in finance, but in art? Like, I feel like I read that somewhere. You're also were you a musician or what did you do? Yeah, I'm a musician. I've didn't study art or anything. But like ever since I was a little kid, if there was a noise making instrument, I just had got to touch it. And I'm still like that to

that day. If I see an instrument and I've maybe never played it before, even if I have played it before, I just I need to hear what it sounds like. and I'm I don't care how stupid I look or how bad it sounds the curiosity outweighs um that idea of caring how people might perceive me and I think that's hard to do the older you get also you probably can relate to this the more your work becomes known the more people have expectations about you, the less obscure your existence is. I think the harder it is to have that like childlike sense. But that's what I try to bring to my work. And honestly, I think that's why it resonates with so many people is because I just I try to bring that energy of not caring, like looking like a dumbass for talking about meditation, you know?

But you know what? I don't think that's dumb. But I've also been in my own journey of like reading stuff outside of finance and making some connections because, you know, I'm getting close to 400 episodes and I've talked about money a lot. And what I've been realizing is it's bigger than that, which is exciting because then it gets more interesting. But I'm curious, I guess it's kind of a maybe this is a dumb question, too. But why did you want to specifically help artists? Because I'll tell you, most people that work in finance are like, no, I want to work with people who have money. And just because they're not all Hockneys doesn't mean that we can't be. What a lack of imagination know like a content creator or something like that but work in the industry they get into it not necessarily because of a passion to educate and inform and stuff it's usually for money they want to make money by selling products about money and it's that's the the danger zone when it comes to finance and I'm always you know want to just be you know warn people it's it's dangerous out there it is it really is there's i've been watching a

a tiktok uh yeah call out feud unravel over the last few days and i'm like sitting there with my pop that's what tiktok's for i think i didn't i i deleted the app because i'm like you know what this is too much for me but i love hearing uh, yeah, the TikTok to sell like this person. in the ways that I make money so that I can look at myself in the mirror tomorrow and five years from now and 25 years from now and know that I did what felt was right by me and right by everybody else. Yeah. Oh, that's a battle I've had the past 10 years. Like, how do I serve myself and make money?

And, you know, I'm fully self-employed and that's always been the thing in the back of my head and and every time i get an opportunity to make money it's like does this fit my values and sometimes it's hard but you have to say no because it doesn't and it sucks because you're like oh i could have made a good paycheck there but you're like if i were to look back in time would i be proud of that and so it's it's difficult though and that's I think anyone can really, you know, relate to that, whether that's just like, you're applying for I mean, I was also in that position applying for jobs. And you're like, Oh, do I want to work for that

company? Because they've done x, y, and z. And I don't know, but the salary is twice as much as what I'm making now. How can I make more for myself? And then when I have more money, maybe I can do more good you know I can take care of me my family give to charity you know do some good things but then you know there's just it's never easy no it's not you know it makes me think of one of my old bosses who always used to say we're all hypocrites it's just a matter of where we draw the line yeah yeah and I feel like that's just like it's a constant battle and you just have to constantly remind yourself why am i doing this um especially i feel like we have especially since we

have you know public voices and we do have people that follow us and like to learn from us we do have a responsibility and so you know we got to be be careful and and for me that's like the thing it's like always just like making sure i mean there's so many things i will never talk about on this show fresh you know like crypto or you know well i don't think anyone's talking about crypto anymore but there was that time where anyone's right everyone's talking about crypto and nfts and i refuse to have anyone on my show because i'm like i don't believe this is good and guess what i was right so like it's just, you've got to just, yeah, really make sure, yeah, what you're doing, whether it's you're putting information out there or,

you know, sharing information with people, or you're just making decisions for yourself. You got to always remind yourself, why am I doing this? And what's, again, the big picture, which is, I think, a thing we keep on getting back to. Now, obviously, there's a good chunk of your book that talks about, which is, I think, a really important, but also very emotionally impacted kind of area, which is debt. I feel like for me, especially like as a trained financial counselor, that was kind of the main thing that people would, you know, you need help and I, you know, don't want to work with a financial planner. They're too expensive. I just need someone to help me with my debt. But that really is, I think, you know, we kind of touched on this, maybe didn't use the word, but shame,

right? There's a lot of shame. It's one of the biggest feelings I think people feel when it comes to money and debt is really, it's a sore spot for people. So what did you really want to convey in your book about debt to get people out of that shame? I wanted people to recognize that debt is a theme that has been with us throughout human history. It preceded money. And that actually, you know, there's this story. Adam Smith has told this story. Adam Smith wrote The Wealth of Nations.

He's the godfather of economics, basically classical economics. And there's this weird story that he told about bartering, about I have chickens and Jessica, you have goats. And if somebody, a blacksmith had, blacksmiths make metal things? Is that?

I think they. Like a horseshoe? I feel like they hammer iron or something. Okay. So if I needed, needed yeah we'll go with that like horseshoes right exactly yeah yeah so if i needed a horseshoe but the horseshoe guy didn't want my eggs and i'd have to then figure out some daisy chain of bartering and then society was like

oh you know what let's come up with money actually if you look back and examine some like look at anthropology and see what anthropologists have said about the origins of money it's not because of this story like it goes back to one example is like ancient mesopotamia and um in the old ale houses people would just run up a tab and then uh they would have basically uh they would send a receipt saying like basically an IOU when I harvest my grain, here's the IOU. And then people started trading the IOUs. So this literal, like the tickets were- The first paper money kind of.

Yeah, they were debt. And they're not, you know, and they're, so I wanted people to understand that, like, what is the other side of the coin when it comes to debt and like on a larger larger aspect of human beings in society what do we owe to one another right and this idea of debt has been with us forever like look at indigenous cultures they were slaughtering animals people they were they were paying a debt to the gods and you look at cultures today, like a lot of Asian cultures, there's, you know, we feel like we have a larger debt to our ancestors, to the generations before us. We're all standing on the shoulders of giants. And so I wanted to like, just let like, let's just zoom out. I know right now debt's having a moment where we're feeling really bad about it and we're feeling guilty and we're

feeling shame, but this theme has been with us forever. So let's start there and then recognize that right now, the way that we're viewing it, it's just the zeitgeist. And we have an opportunity right now to recognize that and to say that debt is a situation. It's a moment of time. It's a thing that you're experiencing because of maybe one decision or many decisions over many years, but it doesn't have to be this bad story that you keep telling yourself that it is. Yeah. Why does't have to be this bad story that you keep telling yourself that it is. Yeah. Why does debt have to be part of your identity and then cause you shame being like something, you know, is wrong with you? It's like, no, it's actually. And also, why is there like more shame for this type of debt and no shame for that type of debt? Like,

there's no shame for people who have a mortgage, but that's almost a scarier debt because you have like a lot of debt, whereas you have a credit card high interest rate, but maybe it's less. So why is there more shame associated with that? you know, and poor people use debt like this. And so there's just all these ideas and these narratives about why debt is bad. And I'm just, you know, I used to be really into Buddhism until I realized their whole thing was like, suffering is the way or whatever. I'm like, no, no, no, we don't got to suffer, guys. I feel like lots of religions about suffering is the way. Like, that's not me. I'm here to have a great time. I'm here to have a good time. But I can't remember what the point I was trying to make about it's suffering but that's okay we'll just let that uh hang just let that plot yeah someone wants to figure that out for us that would be great oh but yeah no i think when you're talking what i and what i kind of got from your

book and what i'm getting from so many other books i just recently interviewed um well she'll be on the show later, I think. I can't remember the schedule when I'm recording this, but Berna is going to be on the show and she mentioned you in her book, which is kind of a fun connection. But it's just reframing things that we have taken as truth.

Like, debt is bad. It's like, we need to get rid of that because it doesn't have to be bad. It's temporary. It doesn't identify you. It's a thing that happens. Just like, you know, it's just, yeah, it's just one of those things where it's like, we need to get rid of that because it is not helpful for anybody.

It just makes people feel bad. I don't want to feel bad. Well, and you see how like why something like that, like why it's easy for me to reframe it in that way is because I went to Catholic school for 13 years. Oh, yeah. I grew up Catholic. I feel you. So I knew at a very young age I was queer.

And so I had this messaging every day at school of like, you're fundamentally flawed. Like something about how you were made is messed up and we're not down with it. But then in the same, like I also understand like my parents love me and the teachers care about everybody. So you have these like two opposing,

conflicting viewpoints in your experience constantly. And it's hard to reconcile. Maybe you have these like two opposing conflicting viewpoints in your experience constantly. And it's hard to reconcile. Maybe you cannot reconcile that you have to just sit with the fact that these two opposing things are a reality, right? And so that's your like, that's exactly why I approach finances the way I do is because my whole experience in life is that friction. Yeah. Yeah. No, I feel you on the Catholic front there. I'm still reeling from, I'm trying to unlearn all that stuff. It's messed up, man. I do not recommend. I do not recommend. Yeah. I do not recommend. Zero out of 10. Wouldn't do it again.

Yeah. I wouldn't do it again. Zero out of 10. I feel like I could probably talk to you for ages more, but I really want to just encourage everyone just to grab a copy of your book. It's a very, you know, fresh and, you know, uplifting book on money. And there's not a ton out there, I feel like. I mean, there's more common, but there's not a lot. And so please stop reading rich dad poor dad please don't read that book read Paco's book please please please please read finance for the people um where can people find you uh online grab a copy of your book where can they and you have a podcast too I do yes so if you want to hear me getting weird and musing more about money in the world um it's called weird finance and the goal of the podcast is to help people feel less weird about money in the world. It's called Weird Finance. And the goal of the podcast is to help people feel less weird about money one conversation at a time. Frankly, I'm exploring topics that I find curious and some of it is very traditional.

I'll talk to some CPAs, accountants, some people in wealth management and folks who can tell us why we need an estate plan. But I'm also definitely exploring things that I think are interesting and fascinating, like financial domination and financial astrology. Ooh, what the hell is that? Yeah, exactly.

Is there an episode on that? Because I want to listen to that. We have a full episode where I interview Susan Goodell. She's a financial astrologer. Her roots are in agriculture. She's a sixth generation farmer. And she also used to work in the, she was a journalist in the commodities market. So to me, it makes sense why she's looking to astrology because when it comes to growing corn and having a harvest, there's so

much that feels outside of your control. And historically, like humans from back in the day would look to the stars to try to understand and predict what the harvest was going to be like. So it makes sense to me. Susan's actually a regular contributor to the podcast she's on every month. And she's giving us an economic outlook based on her reading of where the planets are and what the hell the stars are doing. I love that. That's awesome. Man, your podcast also sounds like a very cool podcast about money. So the next step is to subscribe to your podcast

and where can they find you online? And also your firm too, if people want to look into that. Yeah, so I would say if you want to hang out and stay in touch on the internet, the best possible way would be to sign up for my email newsletter. It's called The Nerd Letter

and it goes out every Wednesday morning. You can just go to the hellyagroup.com and you can sign up right at the top. If you're an Instagram kind of person, we're at the hellyagroup. And if you are a creative, if you are a production company or creative agency looking for bookkeeping, my firm Hell Yeah Bookkeeping can definitely help you out. So you can check us out at hellyeahbk.com. Amazing. Well, thank you so much for making the time to be on the show. It was so, so great having you on.

It's been my pleasure. Thank you so much for having me. And that was episode 367 of the More Minded Podcast with my guest Paco de Leon. Make sure to check out her website, the hell yeah group.com. And you can follow her on Twitter at hell yeah group, and on Instagram at the hell yeah group. And of course, since you're already listening to my podcast, make sure to check her podcast out the weird finance podcast. And also, of course, grab a copy of her book, Finance for the People. I will be giving away

a copy of her book. I'll show more details in just a moment. But if you want an easy way to find out how to, you know, where to find her, how to grab the book, all that kind of stuff, make sure to go to the show notes for this episode, jessicamorehouse.com slash 367. And as always, if you want to find an episode on my website with all this information about the guest, you can either go to jessicamorehouse.com slash podcast or jessicamorehouse.com slash whatever the number of that episode is. Okay, so as I mentioned, I am giving away a copy of her book. I'm giving away copies of so many books that have been featured on this season of the show. Just go to jessicamorehouse.com slash contest and you can find all the books that I'm giving away. We are getting into this season,

like we're getting close to the end. I'm going to have, I think I'm going to wrap this up mid-June because I've got some book writing to really hunker down and do and a little family visiting in July and you know, just want to enjoy the summer a little bit. So yeah, that's probably what's likely gonna happen. But yeah, so that's where you can find the contest. And I will be you know, once the season ends, I'll wrap up the contest, choose winners. And guess what I like to do? First, I buy all of these books. I mean, sometimes, yeah, I do get copies from the publishers, but usually I just keep those for myself. And then I buy a copy of the book to give away to do my little thing to support these authors. And then I mail it directly to you personally, go to the, you know, write a little

note and go to the post office near my house and mail it to you. So there's a personal touch involved as well. Oh, yeah. But also, because I mentioned this at the beginning of the episode, since I'm writing my book, I am collecting people's money stories. So I want this book, it is going to be part of my own journey. And it's, it's gonna, I'm going to share things that I've never shared with anyone. I mean, I, it's a very, I don't know how to say it. Like I've kind of mentioned, it's a book that's personal finance, number one. But number two, it is really focused on the deeper aspects of money, the emotional, psychological, behavioral aspects of money, and basically answering, you know, helping people because I get this all the times I have for years and I haven't, you know, found a book that really answers this question is why am I bad with money?

It's not a case of I don't know what to do. I know what to do. And I'm still not doing it. Why is that? So we're gonna dive deep into that. And so I'm going to share my stories. But I also want to hear from you. I want to know how you feel about money. What has your experience been? What's happened in your past that may affect your present? So if you would like to contribute, basically what I'm doing is I have an application form. You can fill out some of your details. If it's a good fit, I'll reach out to you and we'll do a little interview. I can collect some info about your story and hopefully integrate it into the book. And you can find info about that at jessicamorehouse.com slash interview. And of course, I will include a link

to that in the show notes for this episode, jessicamorehouse.com slash 367. So that is really it for me. Like that's just honestly, it's crazy to think, but it's like every time I've been recording these outros for the podcast the past few months, I'm like, oh, man, when can I finally share the news? I was waiting for the green light from my publisher. And finally, I got it. Now that it's out in the world, I'm like, oh, well, now the news is out there. I really do need to hunker down and write this book. It is a journey. I'll be sharing, you know, some personal tidbits and kind of what my experience has been like. I'm going to be doing that more on my Instagram. So if you want to follow me on Instagram, you can find me at Jessica I. Morehouse. I'm verified. So if you come across one that's not

with the blue checkmark, not me. And of course, the podcast also has its own Instagram at more money podcast, where I mainly just share the episodes. So you are in the loop of what's new. But that is really it for me. So thanks again for listening. And a big shout out to all of you supporters of the podcast, whether you were brand new, but you're a fan now, thank you. Or you've been a big supporter of the podcast since it first kicked off in 2015, which is wild. We are approaching our eight-year anniversary coming up very soon, which is crazy. Or if you've just been a supporter of me, Jessica Morehouse, since I started my first blog back in December 2011, which is a long time ago, which obviously makes me sound old. But hey,

here we are. Now, somehow I was able to turn just a blog that was kind of a hobby or creative outlet into not only a career, which I'm so thankful to have, but I get to now realize a lifelong dream, which is to become an author. And especially someone who never thought that I was anything like I'm not a writer. You know, some people are like, I'm a writer. I'm not a writer, you know, but I can write, I can write and I'm gonna I'm gonna prove to you I can because I'm gonna be writing this book. But this is a pretty cool thing. So I just want to say a big thank you. And I'm excited to share it with you. And we'll kind of share any news along the way. But thanks again for listening. Shout out to my podcast editor, Matt Rideout.

And I will see you here next Wednesday. This podcast is distributed by the women in media podcast network find out more at women in media.network