More Money Podcast - 368 How to Make No-Regret Decisions - Shannon Lee Simmons, CFP, 3x Author and Founder of the New School of Finance

Episode Date: May 17, 2023

Life is full of making tough decisions but that doesn’t mean they’re any easier to make. That’s why I’m so happy to have a return guest on the show to talk about her new book, No-Regret Decisions: Making Good Choices During Difficult Times. Shannon Lee Simmons is back on the show to share how we can all tackle life’s big decisions without regret.  Shannon is an award-winning Certified Financial Planner, speaker, Chartered Investment Manager, author, and founder of the New School of Finance. No-Regret Decisions: Making Good Choices During Difficult Times is her third book after, Worry-Free Money and Living Debt-Free. In this episode, Shannon shares the missing piece when making tough decisions and why we must stop focusing on the outcomes when making no-regret-based decisions. Shannon also shares her go-to strategies found in her new book that outline how to make decisions that are right for you and your life. For full episode show notes visit: https://jessicamoorhouse.com/368 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello, and welcome back to the More Money Podcast. This is your host, Jessica Morehouse, and this is episode 368 of the More Money Podcast, you guys. We are getting close to wrapping up the season, actually. I'm going to officially wrap this season, which is season 16 of the show, which is wild, June 14th. So put that in your calendars or don't, whatever. I'll let you know when the whole season is done. But I'm so excited to share this episode. I actually didn't even realize this when I asked this guest to be on my show. She has been on the show, well, including this episode, four times now. So I'm talking about Shannon Lee Simmons, who was first on the show back in 2018 when she released

her first book, Worry-Free Money. That is honestly one of the, I think, go-to books I'm always recommending, especially when people are like, hey, what's a good and kind of modern and thoughtful book by a Canadian author? That is usually my go-to, read Shannon Lee Simmons of Worry-Free Money. And then she was on the show the next year in 2019 because she had a follow-up book called Living Debt-Free because she really wanted to have a book specifically on debt because that is a big focus of her financial planning practice. That is a big struggle of lots of people. And quite honestly, I'm always pushing that book too, because, you know, when it comes to books that are specifically debt focused, a lot of books out there, honestly, either they're, in my opinion, not irrelevant, but, you know, they've had their time in the sun. But they

sometimes have a tone, honestly, of like kind of shame and judgment. And I'm not for that. And her book is so, so different than that. It is, it makes you feel good and not bad, basically. And also gives you some really great practical tools to get out of debt and then live your debt-free life. And then she came back on the show in 2020 to talk specifically about baby-proofing your finances. So I'm going to include all of the links to those episodes in the show notes for this episode, jessicamorehouse.com slash 368. But if you're curious what those numbers are for those episodes, we've got episode 151, talking about her worry-free money book, episode 184, talking about her living debt-free book, and episode 247, talking about how to baby proof your finances. Now, I bought her book, honestly, before I even thought about having her on the show. I was just like, oh, she has a new book,

I want to check it out and read it. And I loved it because it is not really a personal finance book. It does have some stories because she does do a lot of storytelling, you know, sharing kind of the experiences of some of her clients in her financial planning practice. But it's really not a personal finance book is a book about how to make smart decisions or better decisions when we are in a time of crisis or when our kind of emotions take over, which makes sense because she named her book No Regret Decisions, Making Good Choices During Difficult Times. And I feel like this is very still finance related because when it comes to personal finance, yes, it's about, okay, what should I do? I mean, I guess that is a decision you have to make. What should I do? But honestly, usually the questions that I'm getting

in my DMs, in my emails are, should I do this or should I do this? What decision should I make? How do I know if I'm going to make a no regret decision? Most of us don't want to make decisions and then be like, shoot, that was a mistake. That was the wrong decision. But often we make those decisions because we panic or we maybe don't have all the information or we just don't have a really good strategy for making good decisions. And that is what her book

really gives you an awesome guide for. And that's what we're going to talk about in this episode. But in case you are new to Shannon, you haven't yet listened to any of those episodes, just to give you an idea of her background. She is an award-winning certified financial planner, public speaker, chartered investment manager, of course, author. And she is also a personal finance writer for The Globe and Mail, as well as CBC Radio's Metro Morning Money columnist and a financial expert on The Marilyn Dennis Show. But yeah, we've got a lot to unpack and a lot to discuss in the episode, so I know you're going to love it. So without further ado, let me get to that interview with Shannon.

Welcome back, Shannon, to the podcast. Number three, Third Time is a Charm. Thank you so much for coming back on the show. I'm so excited, especially since we were kind of chatting before I hit record. I'm like, I should be recording this. About why you want to, like you've written, you know, this is your third book, and I feel like in a very short amount of time, but these are all such, I believe, necessary books. And for me, I whipped by your book because you're such a great writer. It's

just very easy to read. You know, you're just like, yep, yep, yep, yep, yep. And so I'm so excited for No Regret Decisions. Now, so you've had Worry-Free Money, and then was it Debt-Free? Living Debt-Free. Living living debt-free. Thank you. And then you have no regret decisions. I love how every one of your books has a hyphen. Is that right? Is that just like random? It's super random and you are not the first person to notice that. I hadn't noticed that. And then I was like, oh my God, that's right. Love a hyphen. Love a hyphen. Now it's a thing. I know.

Now it's your stick. It has to happen again. You've got to do it. You've got to keep on doing it. I love it. But so why did you want to write book number three? It's very different than number two. It's not a kind of prescriptive personal finance, though we do talk about finance in it. It is more general, more about life.

Do you want to kind of share a little bit more what kind of inspired book number three? Yeah, I feel like it's like a, yeah, it's like a financial wellness or like life book. I don't know. So I get pulled into these, I mean, I've been doing this for a long time, but on the front line of financial planning for 15 years at this point, I know. And I started to really, you know, as, as my clientele ages and goes through life, really big things, I'm getting looped into these big questions, like, well, me and my partner are separating or like my, I've been diagnosed with a critical illness, or now I'm taking care of my aging parents, or like, I want to blow up my life and go back to school. And, and like, I have a mortgage and kids

like, can I do that? Like these massive big choices. And because money is how we afford to go back to school, can we afford to put our parent in or like support them if they go into critical care? Can we do all these things with money? And I get looped into these massive life questions with people when there's the really the prescription of what this book is about is a high emotional stakes so that we're not talking about whether or not you order a pizza Friday and the willpower it takes not to spend extra money. We're talking about high emotional stakes. Like, um, your life will look completely different on the other side of this. So like, if you quit your job tomorrow, the next on Tuesday, Wednesday, your life looks different. So big stakes, high financial stakes, and a ton of uncertainty. And I started to notice

a pattern of how I navigate those situations with clients. And it was kind of situationally agnostic. So it didn't matter if someone was going through a divorce, or if they're going through fertility treatment, or if they were going through becoming a caregiver or critical illness or whatever it was, the prescription or the sort of the way that I would walk through that with them, making those big financial choices was the same. And I started to notice that in around 2018. And then in 2019, I was like, I think there's a book here because this is, I can apply this again and again and again and again in any situation and help people make no regret decisions. Yeah. And I feel like especially, it's funny that you had this idea for a book and I feel like

there's never been a better time because I know you started writing it in 2020 when the world kind of blew up and everyone had these really big decisions, whether it's about their life, their livelihood, their career, their money, like everyone was affected. And what I found even in my, like, I did not have certain tools to navigate lots of these because you were coming from this place of, of fear, anxiety of just like adrenaline. And you're like, I need to make a decision now because everything is so important. And it's nice now that there's like a really nice flow and strategy in your book outlined that anyone can apply to any situation. But, and I haven't now that there's like a really nice flow and strategy in your book outlined that anyone can apply to any situation. But, um, and I, I haven't read that before.

I haven't found a book that, that talks about something like how to make a decision. No one talks to you about that. No one, you know, teaches you about that. No. And, and the term no regret decisions was really, I mean, you know, sometimes people about, about book titles or whatever, but it was, it was, I actually had that. I knew that that's like what it was because that's how I hit in my own framework with clients been like, we just need to seek no regrets. And the reason it was no regrets is that we can't control the future. Sometimes if you quit your, if you blow your

life up and you go back to school, it was a, it didn't work. It doesn't work out the way that you hoped it was like, that's a real thing that might happen. It's a real consequence, or it could go perfectly. We don't know. And so you're going to make these decisions today with like, who knows how this is going to play out on the other side. So what can you do in the moment when you're making those decisions? So like, what is important? And I think what I also noticed over my years on the, you know, doing financial planning with people is sometimes things don't work out. And that happens. Life is always going to throw us some curveballs. And the difference between the people when things don't work out, because if things work out, it's fine. But the people that where things don't work out, the people who look back at whatever

choice it was, whatever thread that pulls through and say, huh, well, I wouldn't have done anything differently. And that was a good decision with a bad outcome. Are happier and less anxious than those people who don't like their current life situation, look back along the thread of decisions and blame themselves and say, that's my fault. I did this. I regret that I did this to myself. Because if you don't trust in your gut that you are capable of navigating life when the stakes are high and there's uncertainty, then you live in constant fear of bad things happening to you because you don't really know. You don't trust that you're going to navigate them properly on the other side. Right. So really, it's those people who regret that are the ones that are living with lots of anxiety and guilt. And so if we can avoid the regret, that's the name of the game. So it sounds like a no regret decision isn't necessarily about the outcome because we don't

have 100% control of the outcome. And I think that's where people get stuck. They're like, I want to make the best decision so I can get the best outcome. It's like, but you don't know what will happen in the future. So it's really about making a decision, fully informed with all of your emotions kind of set aside and really taking account into just everything that you can do in your control. And then whatever happens, happens. Because for me, when I think about my no regret decisions, there's also, yeah, my life has turned out very differently than I expected. But I'm happy with it. And I don't regret things. Because even if there are hard decisions, yeah, I what it wasn't about the outcome, because I just you can't control we can we can control what happened the past three years. But we had to make a lot of

decisions that now we have to look back on to be like, do I feel good about that? And in general, you know, sometimes you will, sometimes you won't't but you have to kind of yeah just move forward with it I guess yeah and I feel like I'm having this conversation right now with a lot of people I mean it was really it was dumb luck that the world turned upside down after I had came up with this book like making decisions with uncertainty and everything um and so many people I'm sure you're hearing this from people you're speaking to as well you know they bought a house in 2020 and they paid top dollar and they got a variable mortgage and now they are kicking themselves. And so it's a very similar process of, okay, let's go back to the decisions you made.

Like, was it a bad decision or was it a good decision that just had a bad outcome? Exactly. I mean, I'm in that position myself and I have these conversations and they're, oh man, people are so judgmental. It's like, you know, you're, you're, you're judging me on your own soapbox and guess what? Your mortgage is going to be up for renewal. So you're going to be in the same situation. Um, but I look back on that situation where I feel like I took a lot of from your book without even reading your book. So it's, it it's it works.

Going through all the scenarios and knowing the risks and now that it had a different outcome than I expected. I'm like, but I did know the information. So I was prepared for this outcome. So even though it had an outcome that isn't the best, at least I was prepared. And so I don't really regret it because I felt like I made the decision at the time that was right for me. But I mean, and that's could I go back in time and make a different decision? Yeah, but I don't really regret it because I felt like I made the decision at the time that was right for me. But I mean, could I go back in time and make a different decision? Yeah, but I don't have crystal ball. So I don't know. So how you're looking back is exactly the goal. When you're in one of these situations where you're required to make decisions with high stakes, with no idea how it's going to turn out, you just want to be able to look back and say, I did the right thing at the time. And that's going to save you anxiety later. And, um, even

if things don't necessarily work out, because obviously if things work out perfectly, then you're going to take all the credit and be like, I knew I was so smart. I made the best decision. So this is a love letter to someone who doesn't know yet. Right. Or, or they've made decisions that they regret. And now they, they feel that, that regret. And so, so it's like how to, and how to undo that. Um, but yeah, it's really the book for people. It's been really interesting. This book is different than the other two. Um, the, like I, I, the messages I've been getting, it's not fan mail anymore. It's not the nineties. Um, but like, yeah, I like the messages, the DMS, the emails, all that stuff, um, is different. Like, you know, the first two books are like, you know,

this changed my money mindset, my relationship with money, or like I paid off so much debt because of this, or I say like all those things. And this one is like, wow, I'm, you know, going through my third year of fertility and it's been really hard hard in this book helped me to feel good about the choices we're making right now, even though we don't know. And like, it's like the stakes of even the conversations I'm having with people who are reading it is higher, because I think we're all going through a massive transition right now. I think the world getting flipped upside down put all of us into a transition period that we're kind of unpacking. Yeah, no, I completely agree. So what I love about

your book, too, is, and probably part of the reason it was so easy to read is you give a lot of specific scenarios that people can kind of put themselves into those person's shoes and really kind of see it from that perspective and say, like, oh, I would have done something differently. It's like, well, if you were in that situation, would you actually? And one thing that I really like, and I feel like this is such an easy thing that anyone can apply, is the idea of getting 60% to normal. So when your life does flip upside down and it happens all the time, I think we want to make decisions immediately to get back to 100% normal, which just isn't possible.

So do you want to kind of share a little bit more about what did you mean by getting back to just a little bit more than half normal? Yeah. So the first part of the book where that's part of that is about just making sure that you're not making decisions in panic mode, which are reactionary decisions that are just like, I want to feel like I'm doing something. I have found that the types of decisions people regret the most are the ones where they were like reactive or it was made out of anger or it was like not for the right reasons and usually that's if you're like panicking so the example i even use in the book it's like i almost moved my whole family out of a place that we love a home that we love a neighborhood that we love um during the first lockdown because i was like well i guess the

parks will be closed forever and this is my life now and I can't live like this so we have to do something that's panic that's not that's did you consider moving to like the country like I considered moving to the country I had a real estate agent and I was looking at places in the suburbs which is where I hail from originally and so I I was like back home we're going to get a yard and so like I was so and then I was actually writing this book. It's so funny. I was writing this book during that time, too. And I was like, listening in my ears, in my ear pods to a conversation I had recorded from 2019, where I was like, super Zen and Buddha with a client. And I was like, Oh, my God, listen to yourself, Shannon, like you're you are doing exactly what

you're telling this person not to do. And then I was able to do it. But so anyways, the first part of this book is about making sure that you kind of quell that anxiety or that panic or that you, you like chill your central nervous system out a little. And, um, getting to 60% normal is something that I have found when someone's life gets like turned upside down. So, um, you know, they've gotten laid off. This is a huge one. Or someone breaks up with them or there's a divorce all of a sudden out of nowhere. It's like, you know, as soon as someone says, I want to leave, it's like, okay, your life is never going to be the same again, right? Like it's like life as you knew it is now different. Someone dies. So someone passes away like these big things.

It can send our whole routine into a complete chaos because like even think about the getting laid off thing. and the next day it's like your whole routine like do you even have to get up do you even have to make coffee do you do you do you do all the things and so what happens when our life is turned upside down is our brain gets tired of making new decisions because normally so many of them are just kind of automatic in the morning right we get up we do the thing we do the thing we don't even think about it like think about why obama wears like black all the time or whatever, or Steve Jobs and his classic turtleneck, um, because they don't have to make that decision. And so what, what can happen when your life gets turned upside down is

that your routine is so thrown off, um, that you end up just kind of going in circles and staring at the window because you have decision fatigue and then you don't actually have bandwidth for real decisions that need to be made, right? Like the big ones. And so one of the things I've found over the years that really helps people kind of save that decision-making bandwidth for the ones that matter is honestly trying to make your routine, keeping your routine for whatever it was that was your old normal, doing it at least 60% of the time. So we can all kind of probably attest to this too when the pandemic hit, right? And then people had to work from home. And

if they weren't at home and they were in transit, now you were social distancing and it was all these new routines that we all had to learn, right? Right away. And nothing felt like our life. So bringing your life to 60% normal is like you kind of reach through time back in the past and you mindfully and skillfully select habits or small rituals of your day-to-day life. I'm talking about minutiae of your life that you used to do that brought you joy and made you calm that you can kind of pull forward into your current life to maintain some of that kind of like a talisman almost like a security blanket

of ritual and habit and routine that fill you up but also it makes you have to decide less things because things feel normal for a little bit so i remember even in the pandemic um one of the things that i was insistent on is like we would get up we would get dressed we would have breakfast we would make coffee and we'd have a shower like like we would, we would keep that routine going because otherwise it felt like it was chaotic and out of control. Yeah. And that there's no point to like, I remember there's points where yeah, I, we, me and my husband lost our routine because we also, uh, I always worked from home, but he was renting a studio that just didn't like no one was going to that studio anymore because there's too many people and so he kind of moved back his office

at home and it spiraled real quick to being like let's just sleep in and then you know and then it just gets real messy to be like what was even the point of getting up or and it's no and so it's a crisis like that it's an opportunity to pull through the routines and rituals that are actually helpful. And at the same time, give your brain a break from over deciding every decision. And I know there's another chapter that I really totally identified, which you talk more about micro timelines, micro goals. I think the thing that I hear a lot and I've experienced a lot is when you are faced with one of these big decisions, it feels too big to grasp.

And so what you do is avoid, put it off. You know, you do anything but actually confront it because it's just too much. And it's similar, like you may have the decision fatigue or it's just you just literally cannot do it. And so for you, and I've been doing things like this, like kind of kind of like chunkifying things, like just breaking it up. Because, yeah, it's sometimes something like, okay, I'm getting, you know, a divorce. Where do I start? It's too big. And so you just don't do anything instead of like, well, we need to find a lawyer. Yeah, I need to do this and this. Do you want to kind of talk a little bit about why it is so important when you are faced with such a kind of something that seems insurmountable to kind of break things up so it is something that

you can do? Yeah. And I think you touched on so much of it. We just get overwhelmed, right? And then and often we shut down or we make a panic based decision because we just want it to be over. We want to stop thinking about it and we just want some resolution and any resolution is a good resolution in the moment. Um, but then that's the kind of thing that will lead to potential regret. So, um, when you do a micro timeline, it's like, okay, we don't know how things are going to play out in the next three months or three years, but maybe we do know for the next three weeks. And so it's like, okay, so like to keep your divorce example, it's like, okay, so what do we need to do in the next three weeks

to move the dial? And it's like, great. All I need to do in the next three weeks to move the dial? And it's like, great. All I need to do is find a lawyer. Cool. Great. That makes it feel so much more calm, doesn't it? Like I can do that. So there's a sense of confidence.

I can do that. That's a thing I can do. There's also a sense of predictability. One of the things that is so scary in those situations is that like, it feels like we don't know what life is going to look like on the other side. And well, everything's being thrown off, off course, right? But if you make a micro timeline, then it's like, okay, well, I do probably know what the next three weeks looks like. You know, I, I do. And it's like, I know what money is probably coming in. And I know what expenses are, I do. And it's like, I know what money is probably coming in and I know what expenses are probably going out. And it's like, okay, so there's this illusion of

control. There's an illusion of predictability and like one or two micro goals within that timeline that just moves you forward. And then you reassess. It's like, all is, everything else is on the shelf. It doesn't matter. Um, and then three weeks from now, it's like, okay, what's the next kind of zone of predictability? Like, well, maybe at this point we have a little bit more information and now I can actually predict things for the next two months. Cool. Let's use that. And so we just kind of move our way through this situation, micro timeline by micro timeline. And I've been doing that with clients for years, depending on what's going on, because you get a little bit more information in a few weeks, then a little bit more information and then a little bit more information in a few weeks, then a little bit more information, and then a little bit more information.

And so one of my clients became a caregiver for their parent and called me freaking out. And I'm like, okay, well, what about this? This is, well, I don't know. Okay, so then instead of having a big old sesh, we had a series of micro sessions over a six-month period and slowly kind of steered the ship one little bit at a time. And that was way more effective and impactful. Yeah, no, it's kind of like the idea of like, okay, what am I going to do today?

And then you get overwhelmed by all the all the big projects that you have that could be, you know, months going months into the future, like whether that's a worker in your personal life. And for me, I like have so many different kind of break them into like here are my year kind of goals and then let's break them into action steps so I understand what that actually means in terms of what I have to do and then breaking them down into okay for the month what do we have to do to kind of move that forward and then day to day what am I doing today and that sounds like a of work, but once you actually do it and it really

isn't that bad, it's the hardest part is just like actually doing it and getting over all of your anxieties and your imposter syndrome and everything. Once you actually write it down, then you're like, oh, today I have five things. And once I've accomplished those five things, and sometimes it could be as simple as go to the bank and deposit this or whatever, you feel like, oh, I did it. And then you can rest easy that evening and then you've got the next day. But if we have just never ending to do list, I mean, that's when I procrastinate. Yeah. Or like or goals like save more. Like what? What does that mean? Yeah, exactly. So exactly. So it's like really drilling down.

Exactly. Now, another part of the book that i really loved and i do this all the time is really writing out and thinking about those worst case best case scenarios i think often we just think about the worst case scenario especially to when they're you know during covid that's all we were thinking about we were all watching contagion like we shouldn't have and thought about the worst case scenario i certainly did like why did i watch that movie i was terrified it was like oh shit we do not have enough resources in this household to survive this uh this pandemic um why is it so important to to do both and then to also create i guess kind of a middle ground of like what is probably realistically going to happen

yeah the point for me again we can't predict it necessarily. But the goal of writing out those best and worst case scenarios is to actually find your like values. And often when you write out your best case scenario, and your worst case scenario, you'll see that the values that are being violated in your worst case scenario are the exact same values that would be completely validated. And so it's not like, okay, well, if we're talking about retirement, well, my best case scenario is to get like six or 7%. Okay. Why? Like drilling down, what is six and 7% going to give you if you get that? Well, then I won't have to worry about money and I'll have enough money that I can take out X amount per year. Okay. So what is X amount per year adjusted for inflation going to give you? Well, that means I can keep the family cottage. Okay. So what's important about the family cottage? Like that's what it's about. It's not about six to 7%.

It's about keeping the family cottage because your sibling doesn't make as much as you and you're worried that in retirement, the whole financial burden is going to be on you. Okay, now we're talking. So the goal of the best case scenario is to get yourself to a situation where you can keep the family cottage, even if your sibling can't contribute. Boom. Good. Cool.

That's what that's that drilling down to what it actually is. And on the flip side, you know, we would say worst case scenario. Well, now we know losing the family cottage is a worst case scenario. And like, what would that mean? And why is that? And all that stuff. And so we'll drill down for the values that are happening as well. So there's like family time in there, there's financial security in there. And the reason that I often want to drill down in these scenarios for people's values

is that when you're making a decision, shrouded with uncertainty, very high stakes, you wanna make sure that you're making a decision for you or in your family. But like one of the things I've really seen the opposite of like a, like, like a panic-based decision, for example, or reactionary decision, um, is when people are making decisions, not because of what's important to them, they're doing it because they just want it to be over. They're over it. And they're like, whatever, I don't care anymore. Number two, they're just angry and they're trying to do something. Or number three, they're just reacting and they're

just panicking. So they're scared. If you take the time to figure out what's important to you, what are your values? And what values are you afraid of violating? Then you can kind of prioritize those and say, okay, what is your deciding value? And I talk a lot about that in the book too. And it's like, you have to hang your hat on something. At the end of the day, there's going to come a time when you got to play your hand. You can get yourself out of panic mode all you want. You can do all the work and find out what's important to you. And at some point, you're going to have to put pen to paper and say yes or no, in or out, on or off, like it's coming. And when you're playing your hand,

you have to say of all the things that are important to me for this decision, I'm gonna choose this one to be like, screw it, I'm doing it this way because that's important to me. And that's gonna protect you on the other side of this for you to look back and say, like let's take our house people, for example. If they bought a house because they were like panicking that they were never gonna have a house

and they bought a house in a neighborhood they don't even really like that much. And it was like a very like, well, we have to get out of our apartment because COVID is never going to be over. Those are not decisions that are based on values. They're all panic based decisions. And if they're regretting it now, they're going to blame themselves more likely than someone who might be in the exact same financial situation as them. However, they bought in a neighborhood that they love. It was near their friends and family. And yeah yeah it was a bit of a stretch now they're really feeling it and it hurts financially but like they don't regret it even though it sucks right now because it was made for the right

decision and that is part of the reason why i love flushing at the best and worst case scenario because i'm mining for those those values and we're gonna and we'll label one a deciding value so you can hang your hat on it one thing i too thinking about just decision making i get this a lot where i have to tell people i can't make that decision for you as people like hey here's my scenario should i do this or this like and sometimes like over dm and you're like well i obviously can't tell you because i don't know any of that info um do you think part of the hard part of making a decision is like having to deal with the you

know either the the positive consequences or the negative consequences like we that's why i think often people are like i just want to you know i don't want to deal with my investments myself or even understand i just want to hand it over to somebody because they don't want to take ownership over what could possibly happen and they'd much rather blame someone if it goes bad yeah i think regret is a really hard feeling to feel. And that's, you know, we kind of chatted about that at the top of the call. And one of the reasons I want to write this book is like, I think it robs people of confidence in themselves on a profound level. And so if you're a person that already is kind of like, not doesn't rock the money confidence,

you know, maybe there's been some things that you look back on and you're like, well, um, you know, the idea, the thought of living with that guilt or shame or regret, um, is, is scary. It's too much. So it's easier to put it in someone else's hands. And sometimes that's the best decision. Um, and then you can say, you know what, at least if it goes wrong, I don't have to, I don't have to sit there. I know I made the best decision at the time because I gave it to someone who I thought was the right person to give it to. Right. Like, um, you wrong, I don't have to, I don't have to sit there. I know I made the best decision at the time because I gave it to someone who I thought was the right person to give it to. Right. Like, um, you try, I trusted the expert and like, like again, coming back to mortgages and stuff like that. Like a lot of people, that was the advice they got from their realtor and their mortgage broker. Like who else were they supposed to listen to? Yeah. Those were the

experts. Nobody has a crystal ball. Um, and so it wasn't a bad decision. It was a great decision, a well thought out decision with expert advice. It just had a bad outcome. And so I do think that that's part. I think people are so scared to have financial regret because it really, really profoundly rocks your confidence in yourself. Yeah. And you just yeah. The other thing that I also kind of think about is often and you already kind of mentioned how important it is for you to make decisions for you. Often, I think most of the day-to-day decisions we make are for someone else. Like if you're a parent, you're making it for your

kids. Everything is kids first. Or if you have parents that you're taking care of, it's for, you know, to take care of them. And sometimes you forget you're, you're, you're like down the tonal pole that you're the last person to kind of of consult with um i mean i look back on my life especially more in my 20s when i didn't have as much confidence um and and just knowledge that i do now i made a lot of decisions in order to make other people happy and then i look back and guess what happens i regret lots of those or i wish i did something different how can people make sure that they you know really recognize why am i making this is this for me is this for someone else because i don't want to disappoint them i don't How can people make sure that they, you know, really recognize why am I making this? Is this for me or is this for someone else?

Because I don't want to disappoint them. I don't want them. I don't want there to be conflict. How can people kind of step out of that mindset? Yeah, I think that the true, the true like activity to do that is just is literally sitting down and thinking about it and being mindful about it. So taking that moment to be like, what are, what are my values, right? Like what is important to me, not anybody else.

And what am I scared of doing here if I follow that? So a lot of times too, like letting someone down, hurting somebody. Um, and so a good example of this too, is like my client who became a caregiver, you know, at what point is it where, yes, I want to help. I want to support my, my parents, but like to what end they're like, what point? And so if you were to just drill down with just their values, obviously they want to help their parents and all that stuff. But then at the same time, it's like, okay, they also have a value around financial security and so like that doesn't that doesn't mean that we just light ourselves on fire financially to keep somebody else warm so so what where's the meaning of both of those so the other thing i would say too is like

you're good you can't have it all we none of us can we can none of us can have it all so we have to make a choice and so in that scenario they were like well my value around like family ties is higher than my one around financial security so i'm gonna help but i'm only gonna do it to this point so that i can at least you acknowledge that that's there i'm not gonna totally um you know become destitute trying to support but i'm gonna do what i can and so like, okay. And then there's other people that might be like, no, I can't period. And that is their no regret decision. And then there are somebody else who might just be like, I only want to help and I'll just, I'll sell my house and do it. So it's, there is no right or wrong way to do it. And I think that's really, you really need to think about it for yourself and what you can live with, what you

can look back on and say, I don't regret it. That is the mindset you need to be in when you're mapping out your values is which one of these is going to make me look back and say, I'm proud of that. Even if it sucks now, I'm still proud of that decision. Okay. The last thing I want to touch on, because I think this is another thing that a lot of us have had to deal with is changing course and pivoting. And, you know, I think back to a lot of the conversations me and my husband have about our careers. We're both self-employed. It's very uncertain where we will end up, but we have kind of an idea of where we would like to go. But again, it's like it's always kind of changing. And what we've noticed, too, is a lot of what we've kind of mapped out for where we would like to be is based off of, you know, you're using a template of someone else, someone typically who's older and, you know, the template may not be applicable anymore, but we're still using it. How long, you know, we have conversations like, how long should I keep trying to do this? How long should I keep on trying to get to this level? Like just, you know, with my husband's example, he works in music. It's very competitive. He sees lots of people always winning awards.

How long should I keep on trying to kind of get into this one area where I can kind of get to that level? And we have these conversations like, well, better, you know, keep on trying because what's the alternative to not try? But so when can, you know, what are some kind of, you know, I guess, pieces of advice you can give for people at that kind of crossroads? Should I keep trying? Or should I try something different? Or should I go a completely different direction? Yeah. And so I call those, so there's two things and, um, I tackle those in the book to the pivot points and the guardrails. So pivot points are like, um, hopefully like what you would do in a situation is like you kind of map out or you project out the future a little bit and then map out your

pivot points first. And so pivot points are when it's like, okay, you keep going down the trail, but something else in your life has to give in order to make that happen. So for example, I always use a home buying example to explain this because it's just really easy that everyone can apply it to something. So let's say, for example, your ideal situation to buy a first-time house is $600,000. I say that LOL.

And so, okay, great. That would mean that you had, let's say that they have kids. Kids can be in extracurriculars. You don't really have to commute that far. Can still save a retirement. Not house poor, okay? And then going out into the market,

it's like, well, okay. If we project out like 700,000, okay. Can still do it, can still get the mortgage, can still do the thing. However now, okay. Well, family vacations kind of probably not happening. Um, but you know, can still keep the kids in extracurricular, can still save for retirement. Okay. What about 800,000? So 700 is a pivot point where family vacation is now given up in exchange for you to keep going along this path. Okay. 800,000. Okay. Well now we're talking about no retirement savings and no, like no extracurriculars. Okay. What about 900,000? Well, I'll still get, the bank will still give me that loan, but at this point I'm completely house poor and there's nothing.

So along your trail, you have all these places where it's not working the way you wanted it to, but you still have choice. And you just have to choose whether or not you're willing to give it up. So for example, if it's a career thing, it's like, how long do I go? It's like, okay, well, if it's coming from a financial point of view, it's like, how little do I make before I call it a quits? Or how much do I make before I, you know, call it a quits or how much do I have to make it like one of those things. Um, and then where I would shift something in my life in order to continue to follow my dream, right. Or follow along this path. And then there's guard rails, which are different than pivot points. And so if we go back to our house example,

if the house is a million dollars and the bank won't give you a loan, that's a money guard rail right there, right? Did someone else put that on you? You can't even buy the house for a million, even if you wanted to light yourself on fire financially. And then, but potentially let's say that 900,000, when you're completely house for technically, you could get the loan, you could technically buy it. But you're like, no, that sounds like a horrible life for me. I wouldn't even be able to save for retirement. I can't do anything fun. Can't even keep my kids in extracurricular. It would be like hand to mouth every day. So no, I have a money guardrail at $900,000. So anywhere between 600 to 900, fair game.

But at 900, I'm calling it quits. It's a no, so that I can look back and not have regret, right? Like, I don't want to regret this decision. So where is that guardrail? And the other guardrail is time, which you kind of mentioned, too, is like, time and money are our biggest constraints, right? And so it's like, how long do I keep searching for a house within that bandwidth before I just say, screw it, I love my I love my rental and I'm just going to make this work and hope I don't get evicted. Um, like, you know what I mean? And so, so how long, so maybe that person was willing to look for three years and then just throw in the towel, um, because it's been too long and they just don't want to do that anymore. So I guess the advice is when you're facing these situations and you don't know how things are going to play out,

project it out into the future, map it out, and set those guardrails in place. Like, if you won the lottery tomorrow and money wasn't an issue, when would you stop? So it's like, would you stop? Never. When would you stop? Is there a natural place? And try to find out where you're throwing the towel so that you don't regret. Yeah. I think that's the kind of missing piece you need to have a timeline because otherwise you will probably never pivot or you'll just keep on trying and it's like at a certain point you need to you need to do something different um because your your happiness is at stake or so the happiness would be at stake right so it's like how long do i keep going before i'm miserable yeah and you don't want to be in a place where you're miserable after years of house hunting,

and then you get desperate, and then you may fall into that trap of making a regretful decision, right? Yeah. Yeah. Well, there's so many great things in your book that obviously, I encourage people to grab a copy and check out all those things, especially if you're in a place of, you know, you need to make some decisions and you just don't know where to go and how to go about it. You've got some great advice. Where can people, you know, find out more about you and grab a copy of your book and all three of your books? Yeah. Well, the big, the big hub is newschooloffinance.com. That's like for our financial planning, the online courses and the books are all, the links are all there.

And we're on obviously on social media and whatnot. But yeah, I love this book. It's my favorite one of all three. Aw, that's so awesome. Well, thanks again, Shannon, for coming on the show for a third time. It was a pleasure having you. And I can't wait for more people to read your book. Yay.

Oh, thanks so much for having me. And that was episode 368 with Shannon Lee Simmons. Make sure to check out her website, newschooloffinance.com. You can find her also on Twitter with Shannon Lee Simmons. Make sure to check out her website, newschooloffinance.com. You can find her also on Twitter at Shannon Lee Simmons. And same goes for Instagram. And the New School of Finance is also on Twitter and Instagram. I'm going to link to everything. So it's really easy, including those prior episodes I did with her in the show notes

for this episode. So make sure to go to jessicmorehouse.com slash 368. And you can find the show notes for any episode. So make sure to go to jessicamorehouse.com slash 368. And you can find the show notes for any episode that you've listened to either at jessicamorehouse.com slash podcast, or just go to jessicamorehouse.com slash whatever the number of that episode is. And like always, because she has a brand new book out, I'm going to give away a copy of her new book, No Regret Decisions, which you, I mean, yes, you can enter to win it, but also I highly recommend that you buy it. It really is such an easy, honestly, I read it very quickly. It was just like one of those ones that you could just like digest in a good couple of days and absorb that

information. But especially if you were in a situation in your life, you're like, I don't know how to make decisions, or I just, I need some help here. I need some help. And I honestly can't really think of too, too many books that really talk about this specific topic. But if you want to enter to win a copy of this book, you could just go to jessicamorehouse.com slash contest. And you'll find that book, a bunch of other books that have been featured on this season of the show. And you can enter to win any of the books. And at the end of this season, I will be drawing some winners. And so I will, you know, if you win, you will get an email from me. So really, since we're counting down, we got one more, you know, about a month left of the show. Time's ticking. You don't have too much time

left to enter to win. So make sure to do it. All right, just a few other things that I would like to share with you. Number one. So you know, in her book, and we kind of touched on this too, if you want to make some good decisions with your finances, one of the best ways to kind of get started is to have that plan, that spending plan, a budget. And if you're looking for a way to get started, I do have a number of budget spreadsheets on my website. Honestly, I've helped thousands of people with these very simple and easy to use budget spreadsheets that are good on Google Sheets or Excel. Just go to jessicamorehouse.com slash shop. And another thing is if you have a hard time making decisions with how to invest your money.

Well, one way to do that is to take my Wealth Building Blueprint for Canadians course. It is a specific course that I've had for now over two years and almost 400 students, which I'm very excited about. And it will teach you how to invest using the passive investing strategy. All the information is specific for Canadians because I know a lot of online courses out there say that they're good for Canadians, but everything in there is just about 401ks and Roth IRAs and they're just for Americans. No, everything in this course is tailored for Canadian investors like yourself. So if you want to check that out, just go to jessicamorehouse.com slash course.

And the last thing I'd like to share in case you, you know, are new to the show, or you haven't listened to the past couple episodes, or don't follow me on social media, or are on my email list, because I've been literally telling everyone who will listen and shouting from the rooftops, I myself am writing a book. I'm very excited. I'm literally right in the thick of it. It is a lot of work. It is a journey. I will talk about that at some point in more in depth, but right now I'm like in it. And actually I am with the same publisher as Shannon Lee Simmons, HarperCollins Canada. So it's really exciting. But with that, I am currently collecting

stories from people like you. So I want this book to really reflect regular people. Like, I mean, I'm a regular person. So obviously, I'm going to talk about myself, but I don't want it to be a book that is just about me. I want it to share stories from people from a variety of backgrounds, different experiences, ages, things like that. And so if you would like to be considered to potentially share your story that will be integrated in my book. I have a application set up jessicamorehouse.com slash interview. The link will also be in the show notes for this episode to find it easy. But yeah, it'll take you two seconds to kind of put in some of your details.

And if it is a good fit, I will reach out to you. And we will have a nice interview. And yeah, it'll be cool. And you can be anonymous if you want to have me change your name. That is totally cool. Yeah, I think most people will probably prefer that. Because again, we're gonna be talking about some deep issues like, you know, money shame, and, you know, how we feel about money and our, you know, traumatic experiences and how that's all connected. So lots of fun stuff to think about and talk about in this book. Very exciting. But yeah, that is really it for me. And just to give you a little teaser of what I've got going on next week. Oh, you're not going to want to miss it. This is a great episode. I've got

another Shannon on the show, actually, which is funny. I know I'm just like, oh, I have two Shannons back to back. But you know, I'm like, they're very different topics. I'm like, who cares? It doesn't matter. I've got Shannon Craig on the show from Canada helps. We're going to be talking about, you know, a topic that I've only done a few episodes on. And really, there's not enough, I think, information about this online, which is really about using your money for good, donating money, being charitable, how can we integrate that into our financial lives more? You're going to really like the information in next week's episode, so do not miss it. And yeah, that is it for me. Big shout

out to my podcast editor, Matt Rideout, and I will see you back here next Wednesday for a fresh new episode of the More Money Podcast. Have a good rest of your week. this podcast is distributed by the women in media podcast network