More Money Podcast - 378 The Inclusive Workplace Revolution - Ayo Owodunni, Author of The Immigrant View and City Councillor in Kitchener, Ontario

Episode Date: October 25, 2023

It’s not easy immigrating to a new country and trying to navigate a new workplace with different shorthand, customs, and rules… especially when that workplace isn’t set up so all employees feel seen, heard, and safe no matter their background. This was Ayo Owodunni’s initial experience when he immigrated to Canada from Nigeria back in 2016, before he became a City Counsellor for Kitchener Ontario and a management consultant for large-scale organizations such as Spotify, Canada Life, Microsoft, Thomson Reuters, CIBC, TMX Group and Hydro One. Seeing as over the past 5 years, Canada has welcomed over 1.5 million immigrants, with 6 out of 10 being economic migrants with years of professional experience and education, Ayo realized fairly quickly in his work that big change needed to happen on the institutional level. This is what inspired him to write his new book, , to help companies develop a more inclusive culture and take advantage of the extensive skill sets that newcomers to Canada bring to the table as employees. In this episode, we discuss the specific challenges that immigrants may face in the workplace, the qualities of inclusive leadership, the importance of cultural intelligence, as well as practical steps for building a harmonious and diverse team. For full episode show notes visit: https://jessicamoorhouse.com/378 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello, hello, hello, and welcome back to the More Money Podcast. This is episode 378 of the show. And I, of course, am your host, Jessica Morehouse. Welcome back to the show. We are going to be talking about a pretty important topic, I think, and I've got a great guest to, you know, explore it with me. I've got Ayo Oodani on the show. If you live in the city of Kitchener, you may be familiar with him already. He's a city councilor for Ward 5 of the city of Kitchener, but he's also a management consultant with over 10 years of experience in the coaching, training, and strategic direction to enterprise-level clients looking to achieve big-picture goals while also focusing on diversity

and inclusion, something that's really important for organizations. And I'm so glad that more organizations are, you know, actually focusing on it actually doing something about it. Because he has a, you know, very, you know, personal experience with that he is originally from Nigeria, immigrated to Canada. And, you know, there's lots of ups and downs with him navigating the workplace here. And then what he was noticing was, you know, a lot of immigrants or even just people of color also, they have to navigate the workplace in a different way when it isn't necessarily set up as a, you know, well diversified, inclusive, safe space for all people. And, you know, hopefully that will change in the near future. But, you know, until then, there's a lot of learning that everyone needs to do. Hence why he has a brand new book out called

The Immigrant View, Helping Immigrants Thrive in Your Organization. This is a great book for people who are professionals in those organizations, the organizations themselves, a great book for anyone to really just read. So make sure to grab a copy and I will be giving away a copy. So listen to the end to find more information about that. But just a little bit more info about Ayo. So he's worked with renowned companies such as Spotify, Canada Life, Microsoft, Thomson Reuters, CIBC, TMX Group, and Hydro One, just to name a few. And you can find him often talking about the immigrant experience and giving his helpful advice on the radio, on CBC and City News Kitchener all the time. He also has a podcast, so make sure to check that out. But we've got a lot of ground to cover because, again,

really important topic that needs to get more attention. So I'm really excited to have Io on the show. But before I get to that interview, I want to share a little bit more information about my online course that you may not even know about, but it's been around for almost three years called Wealth Building Blueprint for Canadians. It's a course I built specifically with you Canadian listeners in mind who want to learn how to do passive investing like I've been talking about for years on the show. If you want to get rich slowly, invest for the long term, you don't want to day trade or dabble in something speculative like cryptocurrency or some hot stocks that you find online. You just want to make sure you can retire one day or save enough for buying a home. And this

course can help you. It is specifically about all the fundamentals you need to know about investing as a Canadian. But then I also show you how to build a strategic investment plan and then how to invest in your own portfolio by way of either using a robo-advisor or doing it on your own from scratch. There's lots of worksheets and calculators and spreadsheets that you will not find anywhere else on the internet, hence why I had to build them myself, but also get lifetime access as well as access to the private Facebook group, my monthly Q&A sessions for students, a private email you can contact me with, and you also get a private one-on-one session with me when you finish the course as well. There are so many benefits to the course, so I highly recommend going to

jessicamorehouse.com slash course to find more information and to apply. Again, that's jessicamorehouse.com slash course to learn more and to apply. Welcome, Io, to the More Money Podcast. Thanks so much for joining me. Thank you for having me, Jessica. It's a pleasure being here. You're so welcome. So I'm thrilled to have you on the show. I think this is a really important topic and you have a book coming out, which I'm very excited for you about. But, you know, let's get to know you a little bit more. You have, I mean, accomplished a lot over the past number of years. And are you still a city counselor? Is that still something that's on your resume? Or? Wow. Yeah, you're a

busy guy. So tell me a little bit about I know, one of the things that you do is you're a management consultant, and you know, you do coaching. And of course, like I mentioned, you have a book coming out called inclusive leadership, the immigrant Immigrant View, The Guide to Helping Immigrants Thrive in Your Organization. You know, you are an immigrant yourself from Nigeria to Canada. I want to kind of dive in and get to know your story a little bit more because I think it'd be really helpful for listeners to know what was your experience like and then how did that, I guess, ultimately impact you to want to be able to educate leaders, but also immigrants so they can, you know, arrive in Canada or whatever

other country and thrive ultimately. Thank you. So I moved here in 2016 from Nigeria. Prior to moving here, I turned down a VP role at a media firm back home. And my wife and I just felt we wanted a place where we could raise our kids. Back in Nigeria, you would be in traffic for two and a half hours to get your day going. Yeah. So it was one of those hectic type situations. And we just didn't want that for the kids. So we felt, you know, Canada would be a good place. And lo and behold, we landed in a random city called Kitchener. And here we are years later, I'm a city councilor in Kitchener. But when I first arrived, I would say the landing process for me was a bit smoother. I had someone that could co-sign for me and for my wife and I,

because we had family members that had been here for some time. So finding a house, even though it was difficult compared to what I hear from other immigrants, was not as hard. Buying our first car was not necessarily as hard, but we also faced those challenges where landlords didn't want to rent to us because we didn't have credit history. Because as a new immigrant, you've got to have credit history to get a new car. If you weren't paying cash, you needed to have credit history or your interest rates would be very high, which would affect you or getting a job. I actually ended up going for an entry-level position in a consultant firm, just to get into the system. So I would say not necessarily as hard as others, other stories that I've heard, but it was challenging in itself. And I went through my period of depression. In fact, there was one point I didn't go to work for three days because I was just so depressed. I hated where my life was. I hated where I was. I hated the situation looking at,

you know, where I was in comparison to where I felt I should be. There was a huge gap. And I'm sure you've probably heard this, you know, depression tends to kick in where our expectations is very, it's not close to our reality. And there's so many immigrants that have gone through the same exact situation, even worse than I have. And I felt there was a need to tell their stories. Well, I know from talking to friends of mine who have immigrated to Canada from a different country, that that depression or, you know, you go through these different phases, which seems only natural. I mean, I cannot imagine moving to a completely different country with different laws, different cultures, just different, you know, it's everything is different. And then, and I think likely probably where lots of that, those kind of emotions come from is you have one idea of what it's going to be like. And you're like, it's going to be so much

better there. I'm going to be able to achieve this and that. It's going to be great. And then you land here and you realize, welcome to Canada. It's not like the movies or it's not like, you know, maybe what you imagined. And there's a lot of barriers to, you know, although we're, you know, in general, a country that's very pro-immigration and, you know, everyone's welcome. It's, you know, I'm sure your experience has been like, not everyone feels like that. Or there's a lot of things that you have to kind of go through that you're like, oh, didn't expect that. I'm curious, especially with you, what were some of the hardest things getting started, especially those first two years are probably the hardest, really kind of setting that foundation for yourself and figuring out also to like, do we want to stay in Kitchener? Or do we want to move to a different city? Is it going to

be better? Or is it just like, that's just going to restart the cycle? What was your, you know, what did you feel like when those first couple years? The first couple of years. So in the book, I talk about three phases of our journey. At first is the survival phrase. That's when you come in, you apply for 200 jobs, you don't get a call back. Many of us come with our mindset of, oh, I was a director in my country, then apply for director roles in Canada. Well, Canada laughs at you when you do such a thing. It's like, how dare you think you can come in at the same position? So you start going through that phase.

You're trying to understand the language. Yes, we speak English just like you do. We've spoken English all our lives. However, you speak a lot faster here in Canada. So it takes some adjusting for us. And then not only that, there's something that I call the indirect way that Canadians speak, where you don't speak directly, you speak indirectly. You don't say someone is selfish, you tell them perhaps you should be more selfless. Whereas in Nigeria, they would just say you're selfish.

I wish we were more direct. Solve a lot of problems, I think. But what that does is it creates confusion. We're both speaking English, but we're speaking two different types of English. And it can lead to frustration as well. So those are some of the things that I went through where we're speaking English, but I'm trying to understand what exactly is my boss trying to say? And data, you know, there was data by Windmill Microlending where they talked about 41% of immigrants talk about they're stressed at the workplace. HRreporter.com talks about, I believe it's 70-something percent of racialized Canadians

feeling at guard at the workplace. And it's easy to understand why, you why. When you're going through that survival stage, and you're trying to understand your new culture, understand the new workplace, understand how things are done in the new country, you're still trying to settle with your family. And then on the other hand, you have things taking place in other aspects of your life as well. So all of it just coming together can be an overwhelming experience. And then because you're an immigrant, you're new. So who do you trust? Who can you confide in? Who can you share those things with? That's another layer. So you're holding and bottling a lot of these things inside. You don't

want to call people at home to share some of your concerns. So many times you have to go through that journey by yourself. And what I like to say to organizations is you have this person coming in with so many gifts and talents and ideas and exposure and experience and education. Like think of a scale of one to 10. Like if you can just help them settle better, they can get to 10 a lot quicker, rather than they're left by themselves. And they're giving you an output of a five, you know, at the end of the day, and there is that gap that you can tap into simply by helping them integrate into the workplace a lot better and quicker. Do you think the big problem, especially talking about workplaces is there's, and I knew you talk about this in your book, and I think this is something

that does need to change within like every, you know, workplace, every industry is that the workplace will expect you to assimilate into what already exists in the workspace. Like, no, no, here's the slot you need to fit into this,. Instead of being like, you are a complete human, we should take a look at what are the differences? How can we accommodate? I mean, I've never been in a workplace where they were accommodating me. I've always had to be like, oh, I have to be whatever mold that they want to be. And I think that's part of the problem is because then you're, like you said, there's so many different skills and talents out there that you're completely ignoring because you're completely ignoring

because you're not even asking those questions about, well, what can you do? What do you bring to the table? You're just like, can you do this? This checklist of things? Great. And then you wonder, why are they not providing that output? I mean, there's a lot of reasons you didn't ask any of the important questions. Absolutely. There's a great example around that. There's a friend of mine who years of experience as an engineer has worked in multiple countries across Africa, in India, as an engineer, managed multiple projects from scratch. So you're talking about education, he has it. You're talking about the exposure he has, the experience he has. He moves over to the U.S. at this point and was working for an organization. And probably about six months in, he goes and hands in his resignation letter to his boss and said he's going back to his country.

And, you know, for the first time, the boss was like, oh, so sorry to hear this. I was not aware. I thought you liked it here. Is there anything we can do? How can we help? And my friend said, there is no African food. There's no Nigerian food. And I can't eat the type of food that you all eat. So I'm going back home. And then the boss goes, oh, there is another Nigerian employee at the other side of the office. Let me introduce you to that person. They make a quick introduction and the individual says, oh, by the way, there is an African store where you can buy all your African goods.

And oh, there is an African community that we can plug you into. There is this and that. And when he's sharing the story, the first thing that came to my mind is, so we waited till we handed in his resignation letter to make an attempt that probably took only 30 minutes, changed the trajectory of everything. He ended up staying with the organization. But why are you willing to lose someone just because you're not willing to take 30 minutes of effort to just ask, how can we better support you? And it's an area where we can do better in terms of improving employee engagement, not just for immigrants, for anyone. How are things going? How can we

better support you? How is it going so far? What are you liking here? What is frustrating for you? What can we do to better accommodate? Those types of things allows the person to say, hey, if these people are thinking about me this much, I can give more to the organization. And for some reason, we like to give the barest minimum as an organization, and we expect the maximum output from each individual. But you're not getting the maximum output if you're not treating each individual as they need and the areas that we need to tap into as well. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it reminds me of I was talking to someone about just the term that we use

for HR, human resources. It's like, oh, yeah, they don't think of us as people. They think of us as a resource to tap into. And if, you know, the resource seems, oh, wow, you know, sucked it dry, let's get a new one, a new resource. And that's like, I mean, a bigger conversation about just the problem in, you know, corporate North America. But yeah, like you said, why aren't these leaders asking those important questions? I mean, I wonder specifically with the immigrant employees, is it really one of the main issues probably is leadership, especially high leadership is white and they are just afraid of saying the wrong thing of, you know, accidentally revealing they're racist or or they're just afraid of, you know, saying anything that could make anyone uncomfortable. And so they don't ask anything. They don't say anything. They don't, you know, have that safe space to have those important conversations to make sure that your employees are happy, healthy, and are getting what they need. Do you think that's a big part of it? Absolutely. In fact, in the book, the first

two challenges I give leaders, number one, you have to have courage. You have to have courage to overcome the uncertainty around, oh, I don't want to say the wrong thing, so I decide not to say anything at all. Because the value that you can gain at the end of the day is so much more than that. McKinsey did a study and it discovered organizations that had more cultural diversity had 36% more profitability than those that do not. So whenever I run sessions or I'm meeting with leaders of organizations, I challenge them. The North Star, the 36% profitability is there after you take that bold step of courage. Okay, you said the wrong thing. So what? I'm sorry.

Move on. Let's move on with our lives and let's continue the conversation. So it's important. The first challenge is that you have to be courageous to have those conversations. The second challenge is you have to be willing to connect and build trust with people.

And many times people are so afraid. And honestly, may I also say, I don't think we can blame people. And many times people are so afraid. And honestly, may I also say, I don't think we can blame people. I think we've created a culture around diversity, equity, and inclusion where people are afraid. People don't want to be seen as the racist. So rather than ask the question or make your comments, people will shut their mouths and don't say anything at all. And for me, I'm like, let's get the elephant out. Let's just say, and let's talk about it. And I've had a COO of an organization when I was coaching the organization had mentioned, so are we saying that we should get rid of all our leaders and bring diverse people in? That was his question. And there was nothing you can say unless you address that issue with

him. But if he feels unsafe to bring it up, he's just going to hold that in. And you would never have someone in a position to be able to get hired in that position because in the back of his mind, he's thinking, oh, they want us to get rid of everyone that has worked hard, that has a family to feed. So get rid of them and hire diverse people. I've had another recruiter actually say to me, you know, when I see a university that I know of in Canada in comparison to a university in Egypt or India or Nigeria, I don't know them. So I feel more comfortable with this university. Thank you for bringing it up. Yes, we know case studies has been done and research has been done and statistic proves that people think.

But thank you for sharing it. Now, let's talk about, you know, the economic category and what it takes before an immigrant even gets into this country. And many people don't know that. And when I was sharing those things with her, I'm like, are you aware we're bringing in the best of the best of nations across the world? Are you aware of that? And for her, it's an eye-opener. And she was like, oh, okay, I didn't know that. I wasn't aware of that. So that individual coming into your organization is the best of the best from his country, and he can compete anywhere in the world. So consider it a privilege that the individual is applying at your workplace. However, we can't have those conversations if those people don't open up and share those things,

and they won't open and share unless we create a safe space for them to share those things as well. So for all of us listening, we need to be able to create that safe space for them to share those things as well. So for all of us listening, we need to be able to create that safe space for people to share. And we need to be understanding. Yes, we can hold people accountable to what they say and do, but also find a balance between accountability and empathy. Yeah. I wonder too, for people listening, depending on what kind of role they hold in the company, how can you try to help this? Because I know there's lots of big organizations out there. And you're like, I have no power unless I'm in the C-suite. And obviously, those do not have, you know, a diversity and inclusion committee. We've never had anyone come to speak about, you know, any of that stuff. And, you know, really it should be kind of integrated into every organization.

Now, is there anything that I could do? Is there anything that I can bring up to leadership so we can kind of start, you know, putting some things in motion? They can hire me. That was not like me leading you in, but hey, there you go. I love that. That was a home run hit right there. Thank you for setting that up.

Well, I think, one, they can buy a book and share that with their leadership. Two, can you be a mentor? I used to say, the best way to show a line is crooked is by putting a straight line next to it. So you be the example that the organization should follow. And you'll be shocked that people will start paying attention. I'm the quote unquote first black city councilor in the city of Kitchener. So there are times when things happen within the Black

community and people look up to me to find out, okay, how should we take leadership in this area? And I have to lead with my behavior, not just with my words, but with my behavior. And I think we can all do that. You can coach individuals that come into your organizations who are immigrants. If I have a funny story, when I first arrived, we were having an event at the consultant firm and they had all this food and I run in, I'm like, oh yes, food. I grabbed my meal and I start eating and I will never forget it. One of my colleagues literally leans over and she whispers in my ear, in Canada, we wait till everyone gets the food before know before we all start eating like my my face was already stuffed you know it was stuffed and i'm like oh sorry you know

but no one else would have shared that with me and that could have held me back and all you would hear is you get fired and they'll say oh you're not a fit for our culture. And you're like, what the hell does that mean? That could mean a million things. It could mean a million things. And there's so many times that happens to people that they don't even know why. You know, they were fired. But just, you know, those little words that she shared with me that day. Or another colleague one day, I made a comment and I still am embarrassed, you know.

She came in one day and I was like, oh, you look tired. And then she whispered to me, you don't tell a woman she looks tired. That kind of thing. And I was like, oh, I'm so sorry. Till today when I see her, I'm like, I'm so sorry for what I said six years ago. And she's like, stop apologizing. It's over. It's gone.

But that willingness to coach was so crucial and important. Imagine I said that to a VP in the organization. He's not moving up. You know, that's dear. Yeah, they'll be like, that guy's rude. Exactly. But I didn't know those things. I didn't know those things.

We were probably a bit too direct in Nigeria. Again, yeah, the directness versus indirectness is like, yeah, we don't say what we mean. We just, you know, we hold it all in. She was just like, I didn't expect you to read her mind. I thought I was being Karen. And she was like, no, that was rude. Don't ever say that. Oops. So you can, and if you are in a position to join in a, in an interview, you can jump into an interview and interview someone from a diverse background. You can be part of that onboarding experience. You can say, hey, I'm willing to work and mentor that person in the organization. If you're a hiring manager, give someone an opportunity

as well. So there are so many things we can all do as individuals. Don't just say, I don't have the power. You can try something else. No, I guess one thing I also see and have conversations about this is, especially too, if you are feeling there is resistance in your organization, they aren't, as you kind of say, not creating that psychologically safe space for you. At a certain point, you can't necessarily move the mountain. And it may be safer and smarter for you just to exit because you can't change the world if the world doesn't want to change kind of thing. So at what point when you are maybe you're in an organization, maybe you're trying to do things,

maybe you're talking to colleagues to say, oh, maybe we should, you know, really, you know, change some of the culture here, just because maybe you've worked in another organization that was very open and safe, and it's just not moving. At what point do you say, okay, this isn't my problem to fix. I need to move on. That is a great question. I think it's different for all of us. Some people have a low threshold for things like that, and they will be gone quickly. And some people, they are just like, oh, it doesn't matter to them. But I would say when you feel like hypocrisy is growing, you need to get out. When you feel you're not walking the talk as an organization, you need to find your exits. Because you don't want to be in such an organization and you're becoming cynical, or it's rubbing off on you, or you don't want to be that person your friend is thinking about coming to the organization to ask you about it. And you're becoming cynical or it's rubbing off on you or you don't want to be that

person your friend wants to is thinking about coming to the organization ask you about it you're like oh you don't want to come here the very next question is then you're like why are you there you know exactly there are some people that feel i can be the change and more power to you please push to be the change but if you just feel like it's an uphill battle and there is just nothing that can be done, then by all means, you need to start planning your exit. But please plan it wisely. Don't just quit and get out. Oh, I'm curious.

Do you have any tips or what is a graceful way to exit? Because I feel like a lot of people, that's one thing. We learn a lot about the hiring process, how to get the job. We do not learn how to exit properly. And it's i what i found even though canada's big it's also small so you do not want to burn a bridge you got to be careful you got to be yeah you got to leave with some grace absolutely and i've stayed connected to several of my old bosses in fact there was a boss after i was actually fired. I called about two months later and said, I would like your feedback. I'm not recording this conversation.

I promise I'm not thinking of suing or anything like that, but I want to grow as a person. What did I really do wrong so that I can get better? And he shared some tips with me, which I wrote down and I said, thank you very much. It was a painful call. I hated the call. Yeah. You know, it was embarrassing, but I wanted to grow as an individual because I knew the plans I had for my life moving forward. And I felt, okay, there's something they must have seen that either I am blind to, or it's just flat out racism. Like I wasn't sure. So I'm like,

okay. One or the other. I don't even know which one it is. I don't know. So let me fix the part that I need to fix. And then hopefully they're able to fix the part that they need to fix as well. So I think it's important for you to be wise as you're exiting. I believe in the importance of calling a leader. Before I send an official letter, I usually like to make that call to let my boss know first before he receives a random email from me. He or she receives a, he or she or they, excuse me,

receive a random email from me. So that way, they feel that level of respect. They feel respected. And then I just, this is my process. This is what I'm thinking of over the net. What do you need from me? That type of thing. And doing exit interviews, please, it is not your time to give them a piece of your mind. It's not a time to curse people out because think of it as three years from now,

I can meet these individuals again. So. What if they're at a different organization that you're right? Like it's a small town, this country, somehow it is. Yeah, it's weird. But you're like, oh, shoot. Okay. Exactly. So you need to be really wise. A former individual that I was reporting to wrote an endorsement for my book. Oh, there you go. I spoke to my former boss three days ago, because he started a business and he called me because he needed help in an area that he saw was a strength of mine. So he was calling me for advice for his business.

I have done business with a former boss where I paid my former boss to come do consulting work with me. So I'm just sharing that with people so you're aware that you shouldn't just end it if we can find strengths in people you can always find a way to work with people as well so yes be wise on how you do it because you just never know what the future holds but I think that's even just a really great idea for anyone who who especially too they're on their way out but it's not their choice having those that conversation and maybe to it makes more sense after the fact after you've maybe settled after a few months, and you're not as emotional to have that conversation. Like I want to get some feedback,

because obviously, I was like, Oh, for a reason, I can't really connect the dots myself, because I thought I was doing a good job. Can you give me some feedback? And I'm sure the feedback that you got was really helpful for your next job, right? Absolutely. It was very painful to hear. It was very humbling to make the call. I hated every second of it. So I'm not saying it's easy. I mean, not to ask what the feedback was, but what were some of the things, were they things that you were blind to that you're like, oh, I didn't see that. Yes, I was very, I was blind to how I'd led my team. I think I came in with a lot of energy, vibrancy, and I was asked to turn a department around. It's something that I've done before, but I was good. I was moving too fast for the team. I was moving too fast. So I think I scared people. I wasn't carrying them along. So I think now I've learned the importance of, and funny, I read a book. There's a great book

by an author called, his name is Matt Adolfi, wrote a book called The Canadian Workplace Culture. And this is when I started connecting the dots backwards. And he talks about in Canada, you're not just promoted because of your technical expertise. You're promoted also based on how well your teammates respect you. So if they don't respect you, you might not get that promotion. And I was like, oh, wow. When back in Nigeria, you're promoted because of your expertise. And that's it.

That's like that. Yeah, that's the main driver. Because if you get an MBA, there's it. That's the main driver. Yeah, that's the main driver. Because if you get an MBA, there's a likelihood you'll get a promotion. You get a PhD, there's a likelihood you get a promotion. And you come in and your team, you have power. But I needed to learn the next level of leadership, which was not power-based or title-based, but influence-based. So that required me to go back and start reading and reflecting and finding mentors and that type of thing. So that was so helpful. It was extremely painful to hear it, but I honestly feel that it transformed me as an individual. And I don't think I'm perfect yet yet i still have a big mouth and a big head uh but

i'm learning the art of ensuring that i carry my people uh along now and um i ensure that it's about influence now and not by title or power so i don't allow people to call me counselor or whatever my name is io call me io you know or boss or sir no it's io uh or your excellency oh please stop that nonsense my name is io or if i'm invited to an event i intentionally sit in the back you know let them invite me to the front not the other way like i'm becoming more intentional about it, not because I want to be fake, but the feedback still rings in the back of my mind that I don't want to ever make that mistake again. I don't want to make that kind of call again.

No, oh no. Yeah, that does sound painful. I'm curious too, what are some, when you are especially talking to immigrant you know, immigrant employees, what are some of their the things that you see that they are maybe doing wrong for that. But, you know, part of it was just like, yeah, it's deeper than that. It's a bigger issue than that. What are some other things that you've seen time and time again that you see these, you know, newcomers to Canada? Just kind of they're just kind of missing one little thing that could elevate them to that next level in their career.

Be willing to learn. Be willing to get coached. When we come in, because we're the best of the best coming from our countries, it does something to your ego. So, you know, come on, you were VP. You're like, I'm here and I've gotten so far. And now you're telling me to start, you know, go to the back of the line. Exactly. So in fact, the next book I'm writing is going to be focused on immigrants. Someone actually said to me, okay, now you've spoken to the organizations, you now need to speak to the immigrants. And that chapter I'm going to be talking about willing to get coached.

What do you mean by coached too? Because I feel like that term is so broad and people are like, oh, I've got a life coach. What does coaching mean to you? Coaching is unlocking potential. It's unlocking potential in another individual. From the employee's side or from the immigrant's perspective is seeking someone who is ahead of you in an aspect or in an area or in an industry to be able to learn from them, to gain wisdom from them, that type of thing. I can give you several examples for myself. Let me even start with this. I know of an individual who lost a job in his organization because work was brought to him and his response is, this is beneath me. Or this isn't part of my job description.

This is not part of my job description, but the culture of the organization is we all roll up our sleeves here. Even the CEO takes out trash because he's the CEO. I know the CEO well. So once they heard that for them, it was like, no, not our culture. That probably worked well in your country, but not here. So are we willing as well to be able to find someone that can say, hey, you can't do that. I was part of an interview panel once and an individual who had just arrived a few months prior was talking to the recruiter who was a lady and said, called her a girl. And I had to stop the interview right there and say, no, we don't say that here in Canada. But in her mind, and I

might be wrong, I think she probably just gave him a big X at that point. Like, no, you're not coming here. But immediately once I pushed back, he was like, oh, I'm so sorry. I didn't know that. And we actually ended up hiring him even after that blunder. But he was someone that was willing to be coached. I've just noticed people that end up doing well, they found someone that they could sit with to learn from, to ask questions, to say, I want to get better at this. So I want to grow in this organization. Can you help me? And for those that are just stubborn and feel like, oh, I've done this before. I don't need anyone. They tend to hit walls. Yeah, of course. The only way to grow is to admit you don't know at all and that you can learn something.

Absolutely. aside it's difficult i remember man looking back in my 20s i had the biggest ego when you're like how did i have the biggest ego when i had the least experience and like least skill set you know all that kind of stuff but yeah you really have to put yourself in a position to be like i don't know it all and i can if i set that aside i could probably learn a lot that could get me to that next level you know they're so we can't see. We don't see our blind spots, but there are people that can see it better than us. And if we're not willing to just ask questions and sit down and shut up and just receive the feedback, we might not grow. We might not grow. And we need those people in our lives to help us through that process. Well, I guess on the other side of things, how can people that are more in a position of leadership or even, you know, middle management, how can they be better coaches? How can they, you know, also realize that, yes, you've made it this far, but now you have a responsibility to kind of lift up the next, you know, crew of people.

How can I mentor these people? So again, not only is it great for them in their future, whatever their paths are, but this organization, if we all work together in that way. For the coaches, even beyond just responsibility, there is the benefit of fulfillment. There is a mayor that mentors me now, and you can see the smile and the joy in his face when we talk. And he's sharing from his experience and the mistakes he's made and all those types of things with me. You can feel that. For him, it's like there's a younger version of me, you know, and I can help him navigate through life better through the political industry and the eggshells and all. I can help him. He can move quicker than I did, and he can do

better than I did if I help him through that process. So there is a sense of fulfillment that that person also gains even beyond just responsibility. So I wanted to point that out first, but for the coaches, number one, I would say you have to be willing to connect. You have to be intentional about connecting with people. And what do I mean by that? It's a challenge. A new person joins your organization. Hey, let's grab coffee.

It's that simple. Hey, I want to learn more about you. In the book, I talk about the CEO of Dallas Mavericks, the former CEO, I believe, Sint Marshall. When she first joined the organization, she made it a priority to connect with every single individual that worked in the company. She just said, tell me your story. I would love to learn more about you.

A CEO of a credit union that I know of, Libro Credit Union, former CEO now, he made it a priority to connect with a new employee once a week. Oh, I like that. Yeah, whether that was, and he challenged his entire leadership to do the same thing. I think he challenged him to say, you know what, you might not be as crazy as me, do once a month. In a year, you've met 12 new people and they give you 12 new perspectives. So be willing to connect with people in the organization. But then he also asked a question around what can we do better as a company? And that also showed he was willing to learn. So what that did was like,

oh, you value my insight. Okay, I'm willing to share with you. So that is important, the importance of willing to connect with people. And then you have to, another thing that is important, and I don't know how to say this, I have to find the English. I'm not really good at English, so I'm going to try to figure it out. Yes, you sound pretty good to me. Being willing to see the person become successful. You know, I don't know how to word that well, but. Like in a way that you're not feeling like you're competition or something. Yeah, like you are just, you actually want them and you're happy to see them succeed.

And it's not gonna affect you and your potential success. Absolutely, absolutely. Thank you. I think you were more succinct and very helpful. I knew what you meant, but I'm also not sure what the proper words are, but I'm'm like this is my wordy way of saying what you're saying because i had someone who coached me a ceo of a consultant firm that after two coaching sessions i canceled it was very condescending it was very it just felt like i am up here and you are oh you know

just low down there yeah yeah you yeah, you're a peg lower. And you're like, this doesn't seem like this is gonna be a good situation for me. Whereas there is someone that I called one day and I said, the same mayor who mentored me, I called him, I said, I'm thinking about running for city council, but I don't see any black people in the position.

So I don't know if it's gonna, I don't see an immigrant. And he cut me off. He said, I'll be disappointed if you didn't run. And he was like, in fact, I've been expecting your call. I've been waiting for you to call to say that you're interested in running. So look at the difference between, oh, just that sense of, well, maybe in the future you might have an opportunity to coach people, but I'm not sure. But let me see if I can help you. In comparison to someone- Yeah, if it feels like they're doing you a favor. Yes. And then you're like, this isn't, it should be, yeah, reciprocal. We're both getting something out of this.

Absolutely. So if there is a way that you can say, I am interested in your success and I believe in you, I believe in you so much that I'm willing to put 30 minutes aside or one minute and listen to you and pour out my heart to you and tell you about the books, the resources, the conferences, the people, all these things and share my ideas and thoughts with you. I'm willing to do that. I'm willing to even offend you sometimes by telling you the truth that you need to hear so that you can go back and reflect and then really work on yourself as an individual. I'm willing to do those things for you and with you. If those three things are not there, that's a great question, actually, Jessica. I didn't write that in the book. What? Version two. Well, maybe it could be part of your new book.

I don't know. Yeah, version two. Book number two. Now, I know we're getting close to time, but one question I'm just very personally curious about is because you were a city councilor, what was that experience like? Not that I have any political aspirations, but sometimes I'm like, I wonder what? How do you even start? You know, especially if someone who doesn't have any political experience, how do you start a campaign? Or like, I guess you first have to find some mentors to be like, how do I start this?

But like, how was that experience and how did that go? It was stressful and exciting at the same time. Confusing, yet it was complex. It was so many things all at the same time. I enjoyed it because it stretched me. It stretched me in so many ways. First of all, I think the audacity inspired people around me. No one looked like me. I'm the first Black city counselor for Kitchener ever elected in the history of our city.

That's crazy. Yeah, I know. Right? When we went door to door, out of the 5,000 doors that we knocked on, probably only about five to 10 people looked like me. Really? Yeah. Yeah. And I ran against someone that i lived in a community for 26 years and another person i lived in a community for 40 years and i'd only been in kitchen for six years at the

time that i that i ran i was just blown away by how the people in kitchener or in ward five i always love to give a shout out to them, how they were so open to accepting me. Old white women would invite me in for cookies. These old men will bring their chairs out and I have to find a way to get away because, okay, it's five minutes, I have to go. And they want to ask, people would call and ask questions and want to know me a bit more. People were cordial and friendly. Now, because they were cordial and friendly did not mean they weren't asking questions. They drilled me with questions. They drilled me with what is your plan? What is your vision? How do you plan to address this and this and this? They asked all those

questions, but they did it while feeding me cookies. I remember there was a day it was raining and I was standing in the rain and I had the rain gear on or whatever. And I'm in this man's house and he goes, come inside. And that was the first experience that I had. And I'm six foot four, by the way. So I think I naturally intimidate people. And in the back of my mind, I'm going, I'm six foot four. I'm a black person. You'm a black person. You're a white man. Your family's inside and you're asking me to come inside your house? So I actually said, oh, no, I'm okay.

And he goes, young man, come inside. It's raining. It's cold. Come inside. And I was like, oh, my gosh, that is exciting. Yeah yeah that's a good sign that the city's really welcoming yeah you know yeah but what saddens me is when you listen to the media all you hear about is the one experience or the two or three experiences when I was interviewed by the media this was the stories I shared with them it didn't make it into the news of course not it's

not exciting everyone was actually really nice and welcoming. Yeah, whatever. It's not really a headline. So it is sad that we do that, where we only talk about the two experiences. I mean, did I have a negative experience? Yeah, there were people that slammed their doors on our faces. Yeah, there were people that had Nazi signs on their door. I wasn't going to knock on it. But why do I want to talk about the five negative experiences where I can talk about the 4,995 positive experiences that we celebrate the wins and not only focus on, oh, we need to work on this. Yes, we do. But let's celebrate the wins as well. So people know that we are growing as a community. Yeah. And encourage other people like yourself to be like, maybe I should run. Maybe, maybe this is actually, I could actually win. Absolutely. Absolutely. And I've had several people reach out to me saying, hey, I'm actually thinking about running. And I like to share with them, first of all, if you're going to run, you have to be a servant leader. You are not leading Nigerians, or you're not leading black people, or you're not just leading Indians. You are leading all, okay?

Everybody. You have to be that servant leader. So I'm not willing to work with you or coach you or mentor you if you don't make it beyond that level. I don't believe in just that mindset of, oh, it's only for my people. For me, that's not true leadership. You have to be able to lead all and you have to be able to build influence. So you see, getting me fired actually helped me out. Look at me talking. I mean, right? Right?

Everything kind of works itself out in a weird way. Well, I know there's so many amazing things that people, especially leaders, but also employees can learn from your book, Inclusive Leadership, The Immigrant View. And I'm also excited now to hear that you have a second book coming in the future. So I will have to keep my eyes peeled for that. Where can people, you know, right now, as I'm recording this pre-order, but when can they grab a copy of your book and learn more about yourself? Because I know you have, you know, people can hire you possibly for their organization. Absolutely, they can hire me. I'm on LinkedIn. My name is

Ayo Owoduni, O-W-O-D-U-N-I, D as in David, and my first name is Ayo. My website is ayoowoduni.com, A-Y-O-O-W-O.com. Through those two, you can get connected directly to me, and the book is available on Amazon. So you can type my name in or type in Inclusive Leadership, The Immigrant View. It should pop up. Perfect. Well, thank you so much, Ayo, for taking the time to be on my show and share so much wisdom. Like this has been such a great episode. I appreciate you and I'm excited to have you on again in the future when book number two

is out. Thank you so much for having me, Jessica. Thank you. And that was episode 378 with Ayo Owodani. Make sure to check his website out at A-Y-O-O-W-O.com. And, you know, follow him on Twitter or X if we're still calling it that. I'm going to call it Twitter because I just don't. I'm not into it. His Twitter is just his name, luckily, A-O-O-DUBNI. And you can find him, same handle on Instagram. I'm going to link to everything really easily in the show notes for this episode. Go to JessicaMorehouse.com slash 378 to find the show notes, links to everything really easily in the show notes for this episode. Go to jessicamorehouse.com slash 378 to find the show notes, links to everything. And of course, grab a copy of his book, The Immigrant View, Helping Immigrants Thrive in Your Organization. You are going to really enjoy it. Now, of course, I've got a few things to share with you. But before I do,

here's just something I want to let you know about in case you don't know. Do you want to figure out where your money is going? Do you want to organize your finances once and for all? Do you want to feel less anxious about your money? Well, I have a great tool for you, my collection of budget spreadsheets, which you can find at jessicamorehouse.com slash shop. These new and improved budget spreadsheets have helped thousands of people over the years. And these are honestly the budget spreadsheets that me and my husband still use today. They come in Google Sheets and Excel. They also come with a comprehensive video tutorial to show you exactly how it works.

And they're very easy to use. Not only that, I've got versions for pretty much any scenario. So if you're an employee, I've got a budget spreadsheet for that. If you are self-employed, I've got a budget spreadsheet for that. If you're in a couple and one of you is an employee and one of you is self-employed, I've got a budget spreadsheet for that. If you are self-employed, I've got a budget spreadsheet for that. If you're in a couple and one of you is an employee and one of you is self-employed, I've got a budget spreadsheet for that. I've got seven different budget spreadsheets for any kind of situation. So no matter what's going on in your life and your income, I've got a budget spreadsheet for you. So if you want to take action and see some progress

with your finances, this is one really easy step that you can take right after listening to this episode. Just go to jessicamorehouse.com slash shop, find the right budget spreadsheet for you, and then start making some moves that future you will be really, really thankful for. Okay, so first things first, just a reminder that I am doing my big book giveaway that I do every single season. If you go to jessicamorehouse.com slash contest says where you can find all the books I'm giving away. They're all books that have been featured on this season of the show. And just as a reference, I'm currently giving away a copy of Gabe Dunn's Bad with Money, Things for Sharing by Eleanor Tucker, The Confidence Map by Peter Atwater, and Money Zen by Manisha Thakur. And of course, The Immigrant View by

Ayo Owedani. Okay, we've got lots more books coming up. Actually, let's see. We got two more. Three, four, five, six. We got six more books coming in. There may be even another one. I'm not quite sure when I'm going to end this season. But I definitely have six more guests with books that I will be giving away. Very exciting. Yeah, I'm not sure whether I'm going to end this season on December 20th or the 27th. Depends. I just need one more guest to book in. But, you know, very well, maybe I'll have a couple more that because I reached out to a few people. We'll see. And then maybe it may well end it a little bit later. We'll see. We'll see what happens now. So, you know, just for a little book update in case you're wondering, because, you know,

I've been like posting some stuff on Instagram and things like that. But and I definitely will do a special episode probably once the book is fully done, just so I can kind of share my full experience of what it's like writing and editing and all that kind of stuff. But that's into the future. But just a little book update. I have hit my word count and I am not close to done. I mean, my original proposal said 10 chapters, and I have now seven and a half done. And yeah, it's gonna be, I'm kind of worried it's gonna be long. Like, I don't want it to be a super long book. But I have a lot to say, apparently, like I have every chapter, I approach it like, oh, my gosh, you know, it's a blank canvas, I have no idea what I'm going to write. And it's not like,

this is such an exciting opportunity. No, it's just dread. And I hate it. And I just, you know, spiral. I'm like, I can't do this anymore. Can someone please, you know, do this for me? No. And so, you know, the first week is really just like self-doubt and just freaking out. And then week two, we usually put some words on the page. And then I look at the schedule. I'm like, you need to finish this. I found it recently from an author I was talking to that she's like, Oh, no one meets their deadline, you know, like, Oh, I, I didn't know that I, I've, because, you know, for the work that I do, there's always a deadline, a set deadline that you have to meet. So I thought, I mean, I'm sure my editor's like, No, no, no, no, no, do the deadline. And I'm still planning

on doing the deadline. But it's nice to know that I'm not totally screwed maybe if I need an extension, but I want to try not to. Like in university, I never asked for extensions. I just crammed, you know, and wrote a full like 2,000, 3,000 word essay in an evening. That's kind of how I roll. I just like to, you know, go to the edge and just push myself to a point where I may burn out. That's just how I work. So yeah, book writing is going good. Thanks so much for asking. Everything's fine. I'm very lucky to have this opportunity. And so I'm not complaining. This is great. This is just the part of the process that, yeah, I just didn't realize it'd be this hard, you know? You know what I mean? Anyways, so that's that. And not to mention, too, I have been for a good week just alone in my house because my husband had an opportunity to go to Costa Rica with a friend that I could not join with. I mean, to be fair, it's not really a vacation for him. They're like setting up a place that his friend owns, like putting together furniture and all this kind of stuff. And so

eventually, maybe I can also go to this mutual friend's place in Costa Rica. But it's not fun being home alone writing your book and your husband's in Costa Rica. Everything's fine. Everything's fine. But enough about me and my whatever's going on. I will give you a little taste of what's to come next week. I've got Mick Hyman on the show. He's the author of Mellow Your Money. He was in the financial services industry for decades. He's seen it all. And what's interesting is he wrote a book not about how to get rich and how to retire early and all that kind of stuff. He is literally writing a book about how to not make money your life and how to just mellow out a

little bit because that's kind of what worked for him and his life experience and journey. We really get caught up in the idea that money is everything. And as you'll find out, it's not. It's not. So it's going to be a great episode. You're going to love it. But yeah, that is really it for me because I have a whole book to write. I need to get back to this book writing right now. So thanks so much for listening. I will see you back here next Wednesday. Big shout out to my podcast editor, Matt Rideout, as always. And, you know, I won't see you until after Halloween. So happy Halloween as well. All right. See you next Wednesday. This podcast is distributed by the women in media podcast network find out more at women in media.network