More Money Podcast - 384 Charting Your Financial Freedom Journey - Jamila Souffrant, Author of Your Journey to Financial Freedom and Podcast Host of Journey to Launch

Episode Date: December 6, 2023

I'm so excited to have my next guest come back for a second time on the show because she's not only that much closer to achieving her goal of financial independence but she's also just published her first book on how we can all follow in her footsteps! I'm talking about , the host of the Journey to Launch podcast who you may remember from . Her new book, Your Journey To Financial Freedom A Step-by-Step Guide to Achieving Wealth and Happiness, goes in-depth about what specific steps we all should be taking to save more, pay down debt, and ultimately build more wealth so we can live more and be able to pass down more wealth to future generations. Although Jamila has reached some big milestones recently, it's been a long journey to get where she is. Her journey actually started with paying down $169,000 in debt in just two years, while also balancing running a full-time business and being a mom of three young children in Brooklyn, New York. If you're looking for some motivation to either start or continue your own personal finance journey, you need to listen to this episode. For full episode show notes visit: https://jessicamoorhouse.com/384 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello, hello, hello, and welcome back to the More Money Podcast. This is your host, Jessica Morehouse, and this is episode 384 of the show. And I'm thrilled to have this guest back on the show. She was originally on the show in 2021, and she's back. And I'm talking about Jamila Soufrant. She has a book, her first book coming out in early December, and it is called Your Journey to Financial Freedom, a step-by-step guide to achieving wealth and happiness. And you may already know her from maybe my podcast episode with her, or she does host her own show called Journey to Launch. She's also considered a go-to thought leader, and I would 100% agree in the personal finance space.

Her work has been featured in BuzzFeed, Essence, Refinery29, Money Magazine, CNBC, CBS, Business Insider, and so many more. And her podcast is a pretty big podcast. It has over 4 million downloads, and it was also listed by the New York Times as a podcast to help you get better with your money. And as Jamila was able to share on our original episode, our first episode, which if you're wondering what episode that was, we recorded it in April 2021. It's episode 275. So if you want to listen to that before or after this, just go to jessicamorehouse.com slash 275 or just find 275 wherever you're listening. But yeah, if you just go jessicamorehouse.com slash 275, you'll be 275 wherever you're listening. But yeah, if you just go jessicamaraz.com slash 275, you'll be able to easily find it and, you know, listen to it. But she, you know,

her journey to financial freedom and, you know, early retirement, you know, really started when her and her husband, you know, got serious and were able to save $169,000 in only two years. And not just that, she's a mother of three children and lives in Brooklyn. I still don't know how that math masks, but she did it and she is teaching others how to do it herself. And so I'm so thrilled that she is on the show to share more of her wisdom on how you can, you know, achieve financial freedom as well. So we've got a lot to share in this episode. So let's get to that interview. But before I get to that interview, I want to share a little bit more information about my

online course that you may not even know about, but it's been around for almost three years called Wealth Building Blueprint for Canadians. It's a course I built specifically with you Canadian listeners in mind who want to learn how to do passive investing like I've been talking about for years on the show. If you want to get rich slowly, invest for the long term, you don't want to day trade or dabble in something speculative like cryptocurrency or some hot stocks that you find online. You just want to make sure you can retire one day or save enough for buying a home. And this course can help you. It is specifically about all the fundamentals you need to know about for buying a home. And this course can help you. It is specifically about

all the fundamentals you need to know about investing as a Canadian. But then I also show you how to build a strategic investment plan and then how to invest in your own portfolio by way of either using a robo-advisor or doing it on your own from scratch. There's lots of worksheets and calculators and spreadsheets that you will not find anywhere else on the internet, hence why I had to build them myself, but also get lifetime access as well as access to the private Facebook group, my monthly Q&A sessions for students, a private email you can contact me with, and you also get a private one-on-one session with me when you finish the course as well. There are so many benefits to the course, so I highly recommend going to jessicamorehouse.com slash course to find more information and to apply. Again, that's jessicamorehouse.com slash course

to learn more and to apply. Welcome Jamila back to the More Money Podcast. I'm so excited to have you on, especially now that you have a book coming out. Yes, thank you so much for having me back on, Jessica. Oh, happy to, happy to. Because, yeah, last time you were on the show, it was sometime in 2021. I think we were still probably in the thick of COVID, weird times. And you were able to, I mean, I guess during that time, you were probably putting the wheels in motion of getting this book deal or this book happening. And now we're, you know, set to have your book come out, which is so, so exciting. Was this something that, I mean, I know the answer to this probably, but was this something that was always kind of in your purview?

You were always looking to like, yeah, one day I want to have a book. Yeah, you know, and it's funny because when I first started Journey to Launch, there would be little opportunities that would come up regarding books. Like publishers would reach out. But a lot of times in the beginning, it was mostly like, we have an idea. Do you have an idea do you want to be the author yeah no I don't want to do it like that or there was one I remember a person that reached out and said we're looking to do a financial independence retire early book we just need like an author and I was just like yeah but it's not like my book it's like what they want and it would be directed by then so I always knew and especially

when I think back and I talked to my mom she she was just like, she always thought I'd be a writer because I love to write. And I used to get little literary awards throughout my school or for my teachers. And I did love to write a lot when I was younger. Of course, as you get older and life happens, you don't do as much of those things, but it doesn't surprise me because as I started to do the podcast, I realized that the next evolution is a book, like the next vertical, the next medium that I should get into to introduce my stuff to new people or to help broaden the way people experience the podcast would be a book that supplements and really condenses all the information. Were you surprised while writing the book how much, because I find too, having a podcast is

great. And it's like, wow, we could talk about anything for a long time. But you can't sometimes get into the nitty gritty or talk about things that are really, really detailed or like bring in studies and things like that. Because sometimes it's just a bit too dry for a podcast. Did you find when you're writing the book, you're like, oh, I'm bringing a lot of new stuff in here. And this is really exciting because this is like gonna kind of maybe surprise some people or finally I get the opportunity to go a little bit deeper than I can in other mediums.

I felt that a part of it was overwhelming because I have so many ideas and frameworks because the way I think about and explain things, I like to break things down into frameworks and steps and to hopefully make it easy to understand. I need things to be easy to understand. And so I like to explain things in that way. And so I've had all these concepts and ideas. And so to get it into something where another person could follow, because when you're on the podcast, of course, you want to make sure people could follow that too if they're listening.

But to put it in a book and all the options, I could have went a lot of different scenarios or ways to put the book together and to come up with a way that I felt people could follow that was new. Because my biggest thing is because we're in this space and so we know a lot of people who write books about money. We know a lot of people who talk about money.

It's how to do this in a way where it's fresh and new because there's but so many ways you could tell someone that they should budget or do certain things. So I just was like, what is the essence? Why do people like the podcast? And how do I capture that in the book? And that was my main goal. And so I tried to just figure out the best way to do that. And I think I did. I definitely think we did it well. I hope so. When people start reading it to capture that information and get it down into something, steps, legitimate, practical steps that people can follow

to reach their goals. So with that, because yeah, you and me, we've interviewed a lot of people. We've read a lot of books. And I know sometimes I feel like I've read it all. I've seen it all. I've heard it all. How were you able to craft this framework for your book that was fresh and new when literally nothing is new and make it your voice and understandable and easy? What was your, I guess, idea for the book? What did you want to say that you felt like needed to be said by you specifically? Right. So I just felt there was a gap missing. And even with the podcast, I think why, I mean, I think I started the podcast at a great time years ago, so 2017. So there were podcasts about money, but I don't think a lot were talking about financial independence. And if they were, they were by white men. So I think my perspective and voice in the space at that time was unique.

And I think what was also really good is that I bridged that gap between general personal finance content. So all the things that we should know or should have been taught, budgeting, what's investing and the just basic stuff to this idea and this very ambitious goal of the FIRE movement, financial independence, retire early, and this concept of investing and saving money to where you don't have to ever work again actively. And I think there is a missing space in which someone is talking about both in a way, how to teeter between both, how to use the basics to achieve this big audacious goal, but then to make it more attainable, how to use the basics to achieve this big, audacious goal,

but then to make it more attainable, more realistic for the people who don't want to spend only $20,000 a year, who, you know, there are realistic things that impact people's abilities to reach financial independence. And so I wanted to make sure that what the podcast captured and why people liked the podcast was because I was this woman, this Black woman, this immigrant woman, talking about this concept in a plain, relatable way. So it's like, well, the book obviously has to be that. And it has to break it down because a lot of the books I feel like, even when I read about financial independence, it's still just, I don't always relate to the voice. Or the basic personal finance stuff. I'm like, that's great. But I don't like to me,

following the basic stuff will have you living the basic life to where you retire at the basic age, if that, because some people don't even aren't able to retire at all. So I wanted to make sure that was presented in a way that people can follow, whether they're just now understanding like what financial independence is or just starting their personal finance journey, how can I do it in a way that's relatable and also practical? So yes, inspiration is important. Motivation is important. But what are the actual steps? How does one get from understanding the concept, but then starting from wherever they're starting from to apply it to their own life? And so I tried to break the book down in that way. So it's broken out into four parts. Part one is the what, why,

and how of financial independence. I felt it was important to break down not only my framework. So I have a couple new frameworks that talk about financial independence in a way that I hope is fresh to people, but then what it is for someone who has no clue what it is and why they should pursue it. And then the second part of the book is how to create your plan. So this pie in the sky goal that we talk about never having to work again, like what does creating a plan to get there look like? And then the third part is all about executing your plan. So once you have this initial plan, what are the actual steps you need to do to get there? And then the last part is about enjoying your journey because what's the point if you can't enjoy it and so I think I was able to break down everything in a way that hopefully

is relatable and practical for people so yeah I'm guessing that you go beyond because I see a lot of this online or even some of the books that I've read in the past where they talk a lot about like the theory and concepts when it but when it you know people pick up those books who are like no like I literally want the steps I want to know how and then they just give out the oh well just times your living expenses by 25 and 4 percent rule and then you're like I read the whole book just for that it could have googled that so I'm curious for you what was I mean not to like give your whole book away but uh what was your different kind of methodology that you wanted people to know besides just like the stuff that everyone's heard? And also, too, like,

I'm curious, because the last time we spoke was a couple of years ago. Where are you at on your own financial independence journey? Like, obviously, you have a business, you're actively working, but you're working towards that goal. What's going on? So I am currently in what I call there's five stages that you need to travel through to reach complete financial independence. And I think it's important for people to understand where they are, where they fall into the stages of the journey. So then they understand what they need to do to move forward if they so choose to move forward. And for me, I'm in what's called stage four of the five stages. Stage one. Yes.

So it is exciting. And I think, honestly, I think, so there's this thing like, is financial independence really attainable for everyone? And I honestly, if I'm being honest about it, I do think that it's, for some people, it will be harder to achieve or impossible. But it's almost just like by starting the journey, the moon goal is what I call it, like this big audacious goal that you will can't end up not in a better place because of all the things that requires of you to do. So there's five stages. The first stage is the what I call the explorer stage, just getting to financial stability. The second stage is what I call the cadet stage. It's getting out of debt, working on your debt freedom. The second stage is what I call the cadet stage. It's getting out

of debt, working on your debt freedom. The third stage is the aviator stage that's working on financial security. So you don't have any debt anymore. You're working on building your assets. The fourth stage is work flexibility. You achieved a place in your life where work is flexible. So you still need to work, but you can take time off. You can take time off to start a family, to travel the world, to change careers, to start a business. You can take a pause if you need to. Leave a situation that's not helpful or a person that's not helpful to you, right? And then the fifth stage is ultimate financial independence, the captain stage, you can literally never work again. And so I believe in my heart that everyone can reach this stage four, the commander stage in which work becomes flexible or you have more options in what you do for work. But you don't

get to get to that level unless you actually achieve or try to achieve the ultimate level. And so I'm in this stage now where I was able to, I think when, by the time I spoke to you, I would, I would have already quit my job because I quit it in 2018. And so I'd reached work flexibility back in 2018. And I'm still on my journey to reach financial independence because, you know, I don't know if I want to do this, like for another five, 10 years, I want to be able to have other options, but I could stop. Like I could take a couple of years off. I could choose to do something different. And I think that that flexibility is something everyone can achieve by going through the stages. And that's kind of where I am now where, you know, we could have another conversation in four or five years.

And I might still be at this stage or I might have reached my financial independence point. But I think understanding where you are in the journey and then what's really important is your own desires and goals will really define like what the ultimate journey looks like to you. Yeah, no, I think that's a really important point because especially when you look online or you're doing research about FIRE, sometimes it seems like there's a right way and a wrong way. But I think we've had this conversation before and I think why people are really attracted to your podcast is because you talk a lot about how no, it is personal. It is different for everybody. It is. There's no right or wrong way to do it. You can, you know, make whatever version of it you want. And so sometimes that is about going against the quote unquote

fire rules. But I think that's really important to determine what are your goals and your values and like, what do you actually want? And also, I think, and this is probably something you discuss in the book too, probably the why stage of the book is talking about, you know, why do you actually want this? Because often a lot of people think they want the financial independence, I never have to work again, because they just hate their job. And you're like, well, there's, you know, more to it than that, you know, like, then just quit your job, like, look for another job, you know, you don't want to be in a miserable job while you're working towards Fi, because gosh, that's, that could take years. Yeah, that's what I talk about that, like, because the understanding your why and your why can change. And, you know, but for most people, it's not that they don't want to work. It's more, I mean, there are some people who literally are like, I don't want to work. And so, right?

Like, I actually want to be on the beach every day and not do anything. Yeah. But I do truly feel like most people want purpose in their life. Not that you have to run yourself ragged and be stressed out, but want to contribute, want to feel good about the things they contribute to the world, want to be helpful and want to get paid for it. So it's not necessarily about never working again. I think a lot of people are just working in oppressive or confined environments

where they can't be themselves, where they can't have control over their time, where they have these long commutes, where they're working with people they don't like. And so when people start to understand if that is the reason you want to reach financial independence, that's actually not a bad reason. I mean, I think reasons like that actually push you to do the work because you're like, I got to get out of here. And that's what pushed me. Not that I liked my job. It's just, I didn't like being confined to a cubicle, people

telling me what to do. I was starting a family and I knew I wanted this flexibility that I could pick my kids up or not, leave them in after school and do my own thing. But I wanted that for my life. And so I was very committed to figuring that out. And I just feel like for a lot of people, like that's what they're looking for, just options and flexibility. And if you love your job, I always say this, I'm not someone that says everyone should be an entrepreneur or everyone should quit their job. Because as you know, doing this full time, I mean, it's not roses and daisies. Yeah, it's a job. And also, so, you know, I encourage people to figure out what truly makes

them happy or what it is that they're trying to run away from in terms of trying to pursue financial independence, because whatever that thing is usually follows you anyway. So, you know, my thing of not wanting or liking a boss, I've realized that I actually don't like to be my own boss. I don't like any, I don't even like telling myself what to do. I don't like other people telling me what to do, and I don't like telling myself what to do. And so, you know, yes, I'm privileged in the fact now that I do control my own time. But it's still some of the same issues maybe or things that bothered me in the past. I mean, I don't really have coworkers anymore except for, you know, distant coworkers like yourself.

We see each other online. But it's the same thing. It's like it doesn't go away. And so that's why I think the journey to financial independence is as much of an internal journey as external. Because the goal is to find what brings you joy on the path and how to be okay with uncertainty and things not going right. And dealing with people because that doesn't change. And you can blame it on your current situation and say, when I reach financial independence or when I have all the money or pay off all the debt, then I'll be happy. And what happens is you reach those points and then you're still not happy.

And so it's about understanding what that looks like on the journey so that you can have a full life while you're traveling the path. Yeah. And I think that's the reason why I always really liked how you talked about fire and financial independence is you're very clear, like money isn't the solution to all of your problems. Your problems will still be there because depending on what those problems are, you're going to there's there's different ways that you have to kind of address them and solve them. And money isn't I mean, just again, look at all the people who have all this wealth. You find out later they're miserable. They have all these problems. just again, look at all the people who have all this wealth. You find out later they're miserable. They have all these problems.

But again, they're different problems than maybe I deal with on a daily. I'm curious, going back to kind of the idea of starting out, creating that kind of foundation, that kind of launch pad. I'm sure part of it is like, obviously, here's some financial things you need to do to get things sorted. But also, I'm sure part of it is like that mental, making sure you're in a good mental space. Because believe me, I've seen a lot of people who have like, I just want to quit my job, or they did quit their job without maybe too much of a plan. And they're kind of not psychologically ready for the journey that is like either starting their own

business or whatever the case is of starting their kind of financial independence journey. And I think that's not really talked about too, too much is how to not just financially prepare, but psychologically prepare for this big challenge ahead of you. Yeah. I think there's a bunch of things you need to do. Some of it involves maybe professional help. So therapy, which I think is important and necessary for a lot of people. Finding whatever faith you do have. So whatever religion and the God that you believe in, figuring out what that relationship looks like. I talk about mindset and habits a lot in the book.

So there's the external things that we all want to do, make more money, pay off debt, increase assets, all that. But the internal stuff, the way you feel about your life, your happiness, like the internal stuff matters just as much or if not more to make the journey sustainable. So in order to think about what's truly making you happier, why you're doing the things you're doing, getting outside perspective is helpful or finding something that anchors you, right? Where you do feel, you know, confident help is helpful. Obviously community is helpful. So surrounding yourself, not only with hopefully family and friends that can support you on

this journey and that you can be honest with, but people who have done what you're trying to do and finding communities like that, whether it's following someone online, of course, you still have to be wary of people online because a lot of people post things and it's not true. Like they're not living the life they say. But finding people, the entrepreneurs who may be a couple of steps ahead of you or those little pockets of groups, Facebook groups or local groups that you can meet with and talk to, because sometimes I think it's the unknown or we don't like know what to expect because we can't know what to expect.

But if you are talking to someone who can be honest with you, like, hey, so when I quit my job to start my business, these are some of the things I encountered. So you just want to be aware of that and know that that might come up for you. I just think overall, there's some things you also can't hedge for.

So even for me, once I found out that I was pregnant with my third child, I knew that I didn't want to pursue financial independence in the same way. So my goal when I first started Journey to Launch as a blog in 2016 was, I'm going to quit my job and retire early by 40 years old. And then I started- As somebody who's approaching 40, I'm like, damn, that's so young. Well, I was actually, so I was around 33 when I set that goal. That was seven years ago. I'm four years old already. But so my goal was, after learning all this content from podcasts and blogs on my long commute, was that, okay, I'm going to work this job.

I'm going to invest most of the money. And I'll be able to hit my FI number or what we consider our financial independent lifestyle. My husband was still planning to work by 40 years old. And then as I started to do a couple of years in and we saved a lot of money, we saved and invested $169,000 as a couple. But when I got pregnant with my third child, I was like, oh no, like I can't do this for another five years because, you know, now that was three children, an hour and a half commute, one way driving, my work, which was serious work, you know, they weren't paying me the money for nothing. And then I had this business on the side and I was like, there's no way I can do all this. Something has to give. And so I had

to change what my financial independence journey looked like and pivoted from, okay, saving and investing in retirement accounts to let's save and invest to create a runway so that I can explore what Journey to Launch looks like full time. And in doing that, we started to save money in what we call an FU fund to help cover our expenses. Now I knew why we were saving in the FU fund. It was literally, I know Journey to Launch is not making enough money to cover our expenses. So we're gonna need to pull from this money every month. So everything worked out in terms of saving the money.

I was able to quit my job after having my third child. And now it's time to put the plan in action. Pull from this account that the whole purpose was to save in it. But even that was scary, even though that's what I planned for because I was so used to seeing money accumulate. And so to now see money dwindle and not to have a clear sense of will Journey to Launch actually be successful or make enough money was scary. And so I don't think anyone just like, you know,

as a parent, there are things people will tell you about parenthood and you can learn, you can read all the books, just like entrepreneurship or writing a book, right? Researching. But you cannot know what it's like until you're in it yourself. Because it's like the things you, other people are not like not telling you because they're trying to hide it.

It's just hard. You can't even explain it sometimes what the feeling is. So I think being okay with that and understanding that it's gonna happen and you can't just, every day is not going to be roses. And sometimes the things you wish for are not, it's not it. It's not the answer. And you have to be okay with being wrong or changing your mind.

But understanding it's not a failure that you're not a failure. It's not that you made a mistake. It's just, it's life. And that's the whole point of the journey. And so understanding that I think is helpful, which is part of the mindset of being successful at this is understanding that you don't have to be successful at it to be successful, if that makes sense. I like that. You don't have to be successful at it to be successful. Yeah. I mean, and also defining what success means to you, because often we let others dictate that for us. And that's when we become miserable, when we're chasing someone else's goal or chasing

an idea that we didn't even come up with. That's when I'm miserable, when I'm like, I'm not even sure why I'm chasing that anymore. I forgot what happened. We need to live more on our terms. But I think that's so important to remind ourselves that life changes. It's never straight. It's always like a zigzag. And we often, without maybe even being conscious of it, we pivot all the time. But when I think we start a big plan, like achieving financial independence, you know, it's a very structured plan. It has to be because we have to hit these targets. And we have a target date, but life happens, you have another child, or maybe, you know,

a family member that gets sick, and you want to take care of them, or so many different variables can occur. And it's okay if things change. But like you said, there is, you know, either it's an internal or maybe you feel like it's external, this kind of feeling of like, oh my gosh, I'm a failure. I know people who have gone back to work after maybe reaching their idea of FI because they're like, I miss being around people or I miss working. I actually do like the work. Maybe I just didn't like my last workplace. And that's okay. It doesn't actually matter. It doesn't. Life happens. Life happens. I want to talk about one thing that you touched on, community. That's a really, I think, important part of any financial journey, but especially something as intense like reaching

FI. And I know there is so many different online and in-person communities of people trying to do the same. I'm wondering, too, though, is it difficult? Have you found it difficult for the friends that you already had that aren't on that same journey? I can imagine that it could be sometimes isolating when they're like they don't get where you're at. Like sometimes I feel like that hanging out with people, my friends who work nine to fives. And I don't work nine to five. And, you know, although I remember it, it wasn't too, too long ago that I worked a career like that. I don't have those same experiences. And sometimes it's like hard to kind of talk about what I do on a day to day because it's not as relatable or maybe even because I'm like, I'm just on my computer doing these things by myself.

And I have no co-workers to do, you know, water cooler chat with and stuff like that. Like, is that something that, yeah, it also needs to be kind of recognized is your friendships and your relationships for people not on this journey may change or, you know, it just, yeah, it's just gonna be different a little bit. I think, yeah, I think, so it depends on your personality

and like how you interact with people. So for me, you know, I've had like some of the same friends, like I'm one of those people, like, like I like long-term relationships. So, you know, a lot of my friends I've known since, you know, elementary school, high school, college. And then of course I meet new friends, but so these are people who've known Jamila before any of Journey to Launch. And, and I've always had this like ambitious, they, they've always just remembered me just doing them like the most or

different things. And, you know, I just doing them like the most or different things. And, you know, I just, my expectations, like I don't expect them to understand or want to. You know, I definitely, if they ask me for advice, they know Jamila is like, okay, I know she does this. I know she has a podcast. I know she's pursuing this. And so I'm always open to give advice. If they ask, you know, I've learned to just wait until someone asks me, even family, you know, I have a lot of siblings, my sisters, they want advice, they can ask me. But I actually don't expect them to understand or even want them, not that I don't want them to understand. I want them to support me, but I don't expect that they need to be the first one, I don't know, liking my post or writing under it. Like sometimes I'll text them like, hello, like I know that you

like saw this, like, you know, you can like say something, but I'm not expecting it from them. So because of that, like I still have the relationships and friendships and can still do things with them because I'm just Jamila. And I like that actually. I like even my husband, like, you know, we've been together for so long and it's just like, I'm just Jamila. And he understands my goals and he's supportive of it, but it's, it's my work goals and our financial goals are together, but some of that is separate too. So I think it's understanding that yes, you need support, but just because someone is

your family or friend doesn't mean they need to like be on the same journey with you. I think you can inspire them. You know, I've hoped that I inspire people just like my friends inspire me to do different things, but it can be separate, but it doesn't mean, and yes, people may grow apart because of that, but you have to be okay with that. And so I just found that I was able

to keep our relationships intact because I'm still just me. And I still do the same things with them. And if something doesn't work or I don't want to spend my money on something, I don't do it. If I do, I do it. And so I just think understanding that and then maybe having a separate group of friends or people that you met online or other entrepreneurs that you become friends with can be that where you talk about those things. But it doesn't have to be,

everyone doesn't have to be everything to you. So understanding that is helpful. Yeah, sometimes. Yeah, I've definitely realized that once I, you know, started in the personal finance and started making kind of blogger friends, you're like, oh, this is a different community that is nowhere connected to my other friendship groups, because they just different things. And that's okay to have kind of different groups for different kind of purposes to kind of fill your needs, because you are a multi dimensional person. And so that makes a lot of sense. I'm going back to some of the kind of, you know, because again, you've got a great framework in your book. And I know that's what most people come to a book about this for. What are, if you can kind of tease or share a little

bit of some of those practical things that have really helped you and other people who followed you? Because I know you've got your podcast, but you have lots of other products like a course and things like that have helped them get to that next level, like not just stay within that kind of basic area of like here are all the kind of how to personal finance things, budget, et cetera, et cetera. How do we level up in terms of maybe reaching that FI, that stage five in the future? Yeah. So it's understanding where you currently are. And so what stage you're in. And then realizing, you know, there's a goal in that stage. So if you are in the debt payoff stage, stage two, your main priority is paying off debt.

But of course, I'm not one of those people who say wait to invest. I think you should still be investing, especially. And by debt, you just mean like high interest consumer debt? Yeah. So in that stage, I'm typically talking about consumer debt, not mortgages or student loans, as that can be extremely high. And to wait to move forward can take people decades and decades. And so it's more about how you view debt. Like, I don't think all debt is bad. We still have a mortgage. I still use my credit cards every month, but pay them off. So it depends on what you feel, but definitely high interest rate debts to be paid off in this stage too.

But that's your main priority outside of doing all the other things. So once you know that, you can figure out, okay, what is my end goal, right? So basically it's understanding where you currently are and assessing what I call the six components of the FI formula. So four of them are tangible. So you

actually can write the number down. So what's your income? What's your expenses? What are your current assets? And what are your liabilities? So it's understanding that where you currently are. Then it's what's your goal? So what is your FI goal? Some people hear this. And so the concept of financial independence, never having to work again because your investments pay for your expenses. What does that end goal look like? How much money do you need is going to be dependent on how much money you need to spend. So a quick rule of thumb is multiplying your annual expenses that you want to spend by 25. There's a whole thing behind what that means, but multiply it by 25 to get a quick

lay of how much you need for financial independence. Annual expenses multiplied by 25. So now you have like this pie in the sky number you just came up with. And you could probably be like, oh my gosh, how is that possible? You know, depending on where you're currently starting. And so the goal is, how do you map out where you are to where you want to be? And you may have said to yourself, well, this idea of financial independence sounds great. I want to be able to do it in 10 years. And realize from your starting point to your end point, how much do you need to invest to have that much in 10 years?

And you can look at all your components, assets, income, expenses, liabilities, and realize, like, I actually am not going to be able to invest that much to get to that. And so what do you need to change about your journey? So do you need to change your income and earn more so that you have more to invest? Do you need to change about your journey? So do you need to change your income and earn more so that you have more to invest? Do you need to change your expenses? Can you change your expenses? A combination of both. Like what does your journey look like? And so that's what happened, you know, just practically for me is when I started, I said, okay, I have this job. I can invest this much. I can get there in seven years. Then as I started, I realized I don't want it to be this intense. I want to have more flexibility with my life. I'm okay if it takes

longer because actually now I'm switching to a career path that I enjoy more, my own business. And so it's for the person to now sit down. And after you have your starting point and your first, I call it your iteration, your goal is gonna change, but your first kind of crack at what the end goal looks like, what does the journey from where you are currently look like? And you'll have to make changes. You'll see that. Like I had to make changes to my finances in order to save $169,000 in those two years.

And you just have to come to a realization about the steps or the practical things you need to do and the time it takes you. Because you might have said 10 years and then you look at all your numbers and your responsibilities and the stage of life you're in and say, that's not realistic, maybe 15. But what happens is as you go each day, each month, each year, is that you get more information. You get actually more opportunities. That's the beauty, I think, about the journey actually is like what changes so quickly because you can't help but level up

because of the things you have to learn how to do. And each time you level up, things can happen quicker than you expected or take longer because you're okay with it taking longer. And so it's really understanding the beginning point, the end point, and then kind of playing around with what the middle looks like as you go. I mean, when you're talking, it just reminded me of that quote, and I forget who said it. It's terrible. But it's like, we can do hard things, but sometimes we don't think we can, especially when it comes to money, just because money can be seem like this big, scary monster that is intimidating, and we don't know where to start or if we're going to do it

right. But you know, I think it's really important, like you've kind of explained in what your book is, how it's really structured is, it is really about those baby steps, not to use that term. You know, those little steps. And it's about doing little things that then compound. And then you can take a look back a year later, like, oh, my gosh, I can't believe I did all those things. I didn't think at the beginning of the year I'd be able to do any. So like, you know, like you said, it's important to have sometimes a big goal that looks scary. But if you chunkify all of your steps, you'll get like even if you don't get to that end goal, like retiring at 40, which is not in my cards. But again, that was never my goal anyway. But you'll be able to look back and you're like, but look how far I

got anyway, you know, further than if I hadn't started this process in the first place. And that's why I'm just like, everyone should attempt it. Because let's just say you say, okay, fine, Jamila, I'll try this thing out. So my goal is to reach financial independence in 15 years. And maybe my number is 1.5 million. And you're just like, well, I'm starting at like negative 100,000, but I'll try it anyway. And so you slowly chip away at your debt and investments and you love, you know, you're doing your living life. And let's just say in 15 years, you don't have 1.5 million, you have 500,000. Is that though a failure?

I don't think so. I don't think so. You have half a million in the bank. Right. And so, you know, yes, would you have wanted more, wanted to reach that earlier? But if you didn't even start, where would you have been? So I do this like exercise in the book,

where it's just like, just do like, based on your current trajectory of how much you invest or say, where will you be in 15, 20 years, wherever the timeframe that you're thinking about, if you do nothing different. And then let's just now look at small changes. Let's say I call this thing the gap where you find the extra money to do all these things that we're talking about, like pay down debt, invest, pay for the things you enjoy. Let's say you find $200 in your gap to put towards investments. What does that change at the end of 15 years? If you find $400 in the gap, what's... And then, you know, so do the calculations. And I know for me, that was the most impactful, especially getting

my husband on board with this whole thing. Because when I said to him, like the concept, yes, that sounds great, but like, I don't understand it. But when I showed him the numbers, like we do nothing different. This is where we'll be in 15 years. It wasn't horrible, but it was just like, okay. When I showed him, if we make these changes and can find, I don't know, $800 additionally to investors safe, this is where we can be. And there's like almost a million dollar difference. It's kind of like, wait, what? And it's more real. And so I think it's just understanding that you can't help but not fail in this because something will change for the better. And then you'll be surprised at how fast or how much things can change when you start

going. Well, and I guess just since you mentioned your husband, I guess a really important thing if you have a partner to talk about it with them and try to get them on board. Like, it seems like it'd be very difficult to be in a partnership where one person's doing it and the other person isn't. So would you say like, it is a really important thing to be on the same page with this? I mean, money is, you know, you're dealing with money together in some respects. So this might be something that you need to like, kind of come to together with. Yeah, you know, and I feel for me, luckily, my husband was, you know, on board.

He wasn't like, like just jumping on. Even now, he's not like into money. No, same with my husband. He does not care at all. Or it just like makes him feel terrible. Like he's like, it causes me so much anxiety. I'm like, don't worry. I got it.

I got us. Yeah, he doesn't, you know, he's not like that. But it's, I get, you know, like, I think too, there's a misconception just because you're excited about it. Because I love the couples that I interview or I meet, like, and they're like both into it. It's kind of like, oh, that's awesome. But my husband, just like my entrepreneurship life, like he's just not involved, which I actually don't mind. That's fine. And so my biggest thing is he's supportive.

And so if I need to go do things for my business or with money, like he trusts me, I trust him. And it's open communication that it's like, do what you need to do. And that's how I know he's supportive versus like trying to block me and what's happening in my life. Right. So I just think it's helpful. It's more helpful if you have two people working towards one goal, especially if you're sharing expenses and some people, you know, are everything separate and that's different, but we are already sharing expenses. So to be able to combine our income, to be able to do this, like is more powerful. And so getting to a place in which you both feel comfortable. So for my husband, we slowed up a lot in terms of how much we invest and save.

We're still on target to reach financial independence, maybe just a couple of few years later. But and we can reach it earlier if we our lifestyle was less if we spent less. But we don't want to do that. And so also incorporating what we both enjoy, what he enjoys. So it's just like I know he wants. I always I said this a couple of times to say in the book, he wants a nicer car. I know that. And a nicer car, though, I feel like will increases how much we need to spend if we finance it, depending on rates.

So we buy it, you know, but I'm not opposed to it because it's his life too. And it's his money also. So how do we work that into our financial plan where we're not delaying or putting something at risk for our own finances? But how can I help him realize what he wants? And so he's happy. And same thing he does for me. So I think it's incorporating each other's goals, not judging each other for it. But now as I'm talking, I do think I'm no relationship expert and I can only speak for myself.

But maybe it's from talking to people, I do feel like the openness or willingness to share about finances and be kind and understanding about it, even if you feel differently is a like smaller indication, I think of an overall relationship. So no, not saying that like if your finances are crap with your partner, then your whole relationship is. But I feel like if you're afraid to talk to your partner or have those open conversations, sometimes it's a bigger issue at hand. And not that my husband and I don't have issues, but I just feel like we operate like that in general, like with the respect, especially with having three kids and that how we have to be a team for that. And so it comes through in our finances to where we're understanding. So I just think some of that

may take therapy outside of finances for you to get to that point with your partner. that may be an indication that there's some other underlying issues if money is difficult to talk about because it is such an important part of your relationship because it is yeah you know it's not just about love it is also about assets and liabilities and things like that and and all that kind of stuff so definitely look for for either a couple's therapist or there are financial therapists out there or a financial planner there's lots of different professionals out there that can help ease it because it is not easy to have those conversations. And it's never going to be perfect, believe me. Me and my husband still like it's never he never enjoys having conversations about money just because all these other things. But, you know, it's important to to have those conversations,

even though it's difficult. So you can, you know, respect each other and be on the same page because, you know, that's eventually whether you retire early or just retire eventually, you're eventually going to have to figure that out together. Right. and all these things, but having a supportive or the relationship that works for you is impacts your finances and career so much, especially as a woman, if you're wanting to have kids like that, you need someone who can understand what that is and be equal support or equal partners, partner in the household and outside the household to help like do their part. Absolutely. I know there's so many other things that we could talk about, but I'm just so excited for your book to come out. I think this is a long time coming. I know people will absolutely love it. So I highly encourage people to grab a copy of Your Journey to Financial Freedom, a step by

step guide to achieving wealth and happiness. Where can people find more information? Grab a copy of the book and follow you on all of your social channels and website. Yeah. So you can go to yourjourneytofinancialfreedom.com. I know it's kind of long, but you can do it. Yourjourneytofinancialfreedom.com. That's the book website. You can go there. Depending on where this comes out, you'll probably get a free bonus for buying the book. And you can buy it anywhere. So you can go there, get your free bonus, free course. Right now it's a course, but I don't know if it's going to be that by the time this comes out and put your information in, but then you'll see all the places you can buy. Bookshop.org, support your local bookstores, Amazon, Target, all the online retailers.

And then you can find me at Journey to Launch on all social channels, Instagram, Facebook, Twitter. I mostly hang out on Instagram. And I'd love to hear if you listen to this podcast, what you got out of it or if you enjoyed it. Or we say tag us. Tag us so we know you listened. Yeah. I love that. Well, thank you so much, Jamila, for coming back on the show. And I'm excited to continue to follow your journey and excited to see the book come out. So, you know, thanks again for coming.

Thank you so much, Jessica, for having me. And that was episode 384 with Jamila Soufrant. Make sure to check out, I mean, all of her things. So number one, you can find her website, journeytolaunch.com. Very easy. You can also go to yourjourneytofinancialfreedom.com. So that's more for the book. You can find her on Twitter and Instagram at journeyt financial freedom.com. So that's more for the book. You can find her on Twitter and

Instagram at journey to launch. And also tick tock and YouTube and Facebook. Okay, she's got all she's so smart. She has everything is just journey to launch. I wish it was that smart. Everything I've got is like a stupid different username because I didn't know what I was doing. Or there was a billion Jessica Morehouses out there apparently. So make sure to grab a copy of her new book, Your Journey to Financial Freedom, or if you're listening before it's out, pre-order, pre-order that book. And yeah, and if you want to check out the show notes too, because I will link to everything just to make it all nice and clean and easy, all everything in one place, just go to jessicamorehouse.com slash 384. And if you want to find an episode, any episode ever, forever, in the eight years

that I've been doing the show, just go to jessicamorehouse.com slash podcast. That is what you can do or jessicamorehouse.com slash the number of the episode if you know it. Now, as always, I have a few things to share, including how you can enter to win a copy of her book and a bunch of other books. So don't go away. Stay with me. Do you want to figure out where your money is going? Do you want to organize your finances once and for all? Do you want to feel less anxious about your money? Well, I have a great tool for you. My collection of budget spreadsheets, which you can find at JessicaMorehouse.com slash shop. These new and improved budget spreadsheets have helped thousands of people over the years. And these are honestly the budget spreadsheets that me and my husband still use today.

They come in Google Sheets and Excel. They also come with a comprehensive video tutorial to show you exactly how it works. And they're very easy to use. Not only that, I've got versions for pretty much any scenario. So if you're an employee, I've got a budget spreadsheet for that. If you are self-employed, I've got a budget spreadsheet for that. If you're in a couple and one of you is an employee and one of you is self-employed, I've got a budget spreadsheet for that. If you are self-employed, I've got a budget spreadsheet for that. If you're in a couple and one of you is an employee and one of you is self-employed, I've got a budget spreadsheet for that. I've got seven different budget spreadsheets

for any kind of situation. So no matter what's going on in your life and your income, I've got a budget spreadsheet for you. So if you want to take action and see some progress with your finances, this is one really easy step that you can take right after listening to this episode. Just go to jessicamorehouse.com slash shop, find the right budget spreadsheet for you, and then start making some moves that future you will be really, really thankful for. I always feel like if I ever have said on this podcast, which I'm sure I have a few times, stay with me or stay with us. I feel like I'm news anchor. I mean, that was my like, you know, this probably about me in a very long time ago podcast episode that I feel like I'm news anchor. I mean, that was my like, you know, this probably about me in a very long time ago podcast episode that I shared that I used to work in the newsroom as a teleprompter

operator. One of the most stressful jobs, oh my gosh, in my 20s. And anchors, whenever they're like, please don't go away. They'd always, you know, say like, da da da da da, stay with us. Anyways, just thought I'd say that for no reason at all. If you want to enter to win a copy of da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, mornhouse.com slash contest is where you can find all the details on that. Really nothing else going on right now with me. As you know, I'm just hunkering down trying to get my book ready. I'm so excited for when it will actually be a real thing and me not just talk about the process. That'll be very exciting for me. Well, actually, one thing I would suggest, as I'm recording this, it doesn't have a link or anything, but I was recently a guest. I'm rarely a guest on podcasts. Honestly, I don't really do that that often because I don't have anything to

promote. But once I have a book, I will be doing a heck of a lot of that. But I was on the Sick Boy podcast, so an amazing podcast by some great Canadians from Nova Scotia. And I met the guys at this Apple event a few weeks ago. We hit it off and we just, you know, really vibed and they invited me on my show. And Jeremy, one of the guys is going to come on my show for next season, which is really exciting. But it was such a good episode. Like I had such a good time. Let me tell you, I've been on some podcasts and I have not had a good time. There are some ones where I'm like, I hope no one ever hears this. This was trash. I will not say what those podcasts are. This one was amazing, though. I had so much like I told my husband right after I'm like, Oh, my gosh, I'm just so excited. And I felt

like it was a reminder for why I am doing what I'm doing. Sometimes I'm so like in my little bubble that I just I'm just like, Why am I even here? What am I doing? Am I even helping anybody? Like, is this even, you know, do I even have a purpose on this earth? Like I get, you know, down the rabbit hole. And just talking to these guys, it made me so excited to continue doing the work. So listen to that episode, just subscribe to the Sick Boy podcast, and you'll find me there. My episode should be there somewhere. And he's got like, Aber Mate on the show. And I don't know if you're like into psychology or, you know, trauma stuff, which I am a lot. And he's like a superstar with, you know, the myth of normal and stuff. And they got him on

the show. And I think they're actually going to do a live event with him in Vancouver if you're listening. So check that out. I think it's sometime in December. So check it out. Okay, so that really is I think it for me. But who do I have on the show next week? I have Elise Fulmore. So you may know her because she is huge on the TikTok with like half a million or maybe more. I don't know. I can't remember. But like a lot of followers and the same with Instagram. And she has a book coming out as well. But what's really interesting about her is not only is she queer and she kind of talks about, you know, how does that influence your finances and how it's influenced her and her, you know, money management. But also she has ADHD and how that impacts.

And just see there's layers. Like, I feel like often we don't talk about the layers that, you know, come into play. It's not just, you know, from this podcast. It's money management and being good with money isn't just about doing A, B, and C, the step-by-step. There's so many things that get in the way. And so she has a book coming out talking a lot about this. So I'm so excited to have her on the show next week, next Wednesday. So do not miss it. And yeah, that's really it for me. Shout out to my podcast editor, as always, Matt Rideout for all of his great work. And I will see you back here next Wednesday for a fresh new episode of the

More Money Podcast. This podcast is distributed by the Women in Media Podcast Network. Find out more at womeninmedia.network.