More Money Podcast - 385 What Your Identity Says About Your Money - Ellyce Fulmore, Author of Keeping Finance Personal and Owner of Queerd Co.

Episode Date: December 13, 2023

Money can be a simple thing, but it can also be complex when you take into account one important factor — people. Financial content creator and new author is on the podcast today to discuss her new book, , as well how we all need to adopt a more shame-free and trauma-aware approach to money. You see, there's a reason managing money and building wealth comes easy to some and not others. For Ellyce, she realized that her identity as a queer woman with ADHD played a much larger role in her finances than she initially realized. So just think, what does your identity say about your money? Does it mean you face certain barriers that others don't? Does it mean it takes you longer to learn? Does it mean you'll struggle more with things like sticking to a budget or overcoming your anxiety with investing compared to others? The answer is a resounding YES! Personal finance is personal as they say, but often I think that important fact is still overlooked or ignored by many. For full episode show notes visit: https://jessicamoorhouse.com/385 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello, and welcome back to the More Money Podcast. I'm your host, Jessica Morehouse, and this is episode 385 of the podcast and the second to last episode of this season, season 17 of the show until a little hiatus, and then I will restart sometime in 2024. I don't know when. I never tell you because I never know. I don't know if you know this about me, but it's not like I really have. I'm just doing this sometimes on the fly. I'm like, maybe it'll be end of January, maybe early February. I don't know. We'll find out. But so far, no one's complained that they're like, well, it's never on the same date. I'm like, yeah, no, it's not because sometimes I just, you know, just change it.

But anyways, with that said, so I'm excited about these last two episodes, especially to have my guest today on the show. I've got Elise Fulmar, who you may already be following on social media because she's got a very big following that she's been growing since, I guess, 2020. She is a queer and neurodivergent financial educator, content creator, and new author of the book Keeping Finance Personal, which will be officially released in January, but you can pre-order it now. Now, what I'm really excited and we talk about in this episode is how her book really is an answer to all of the personal finance books that exist that may make

you feel unheard and unseen because a lot of them just talk about do step one, two, and three, and then you try to do them and it's harder than you think, or you just can't bring yourself to actually do it, or you keep on doing it and then mucking it up a little bit. Nothing is straightforward when it comes to personal finance. And I think I'm really excited that she talks about that in her book, which is really focused on going beyond conventional and focusing on intersectionality of identities and lived experiences when it comes to money. So talking about all the important things that we generally ignore when it comes to money, hence why it's called Keeping Finance Personal. It's different for everybody. So we've got a great interview

for you. I'm so excited to share this. And of course, I will be giving away a copy of her book as well. So with that, let's get to it. But before I get to that interview, I want to share a little bit more information about my online course that you may not even know about, but it's been around for almost three years called Wealth Building Blueprint for Canadians. It's a course I built specifically with you Canadian listeners in mind who want to learn how to do passive investing like I've been talking about for years on the show. mind to want to learn how to do passive investing like I've been talking about for years on the show. If you want to get rich slowly, invest for the long term, you don't want to day trade or dabble in something speculative like cryptocurrency or some hot stocks that you find online. You just want to make sure you can retire one day or

save enough for buying a home. And this course can help you. It is specifically about all the fundamentals you need to know about investing as a Canadian. But then I also show you how to build a strategic investment plan and then how to invest in your own portfolio by way of either using a robo-advisor or doing it on your own from scratch. There's lots of worksheets and calculators and spreadsheets that you will not find anywhere else on the internet, hence why I had to build them myself, but also get lifetime access as well as access to the private Facebook group, my monthly Q&A sessions for students, a private email you can contact me with,

and you also get a private one-on-one session with me when you finish the course as well. There are so many benefits to the course, so I highly recommend going to jessicamorehouse.com slash course to find more information and to apply. Again, that's jessicamorehouse.com slash course to learn more and to apply. Welcome, Elise, to the More Money Podcast. So excited to have you on. So excited to be here. Thank you for having me. Yes. Another fellow Canadian from Calgary. Very exciting. So we've got a lot to talk about. You have a book coming out, which is really exciting, but I think How I First Discovered You was probably on Instagram or TikTok, one of those.

Just, you know, I think we just know a lot of people in common. We're in the same space. And do you want to kind of take us back to, you know, where it all started? Was it just a few years ago that you kind of started kind of creating this kind of more personal finance related content? Because I feel like you used to do something different before maybe. Yes. Yes, you're correct. Yeah. So it's been since 2020 that I've been doing finance content, but I have been a content creator for a very long time. So whenever people are like, you blew up so fast, I'm like, this was like eight years. You were working on it, but maybe, so what was the kind of content that you created before

going into personal finance? So I've kind of done a bunch of different things. I used to have a thrifting YouTube channel. So I filmed like thrift halls and come thrift with me.. I used to have a thrifting YouTube channel. So I filmed like thrift halls and come thrift with me. And I used to also talk more about sustainability and I had a blog and I was like testing out all the different natural deodorants and like doing stuff like that. Do any of them work? Cause I don't know if they do. My favorite back then was routine deodorant. That was my favorite. So I haven't tested the recent ones, but, and yeah, I also talked a lot about just like more, I guess, personal development, self-love type of stuff. And yeah, I was kind of going through my own personal finance journey behind the scenes. And then that's what prompted me to kind of start talking more about it as I started

to learn more myself. And then during the pandemic, I was laid off from the part-time corporate job I was working at the time. And I started posting more about money. I started posting more about career. And that content really took off because I think it was just really what people needed to hear at that moment. It was such an interesting time looking back at 2020. Because at the start of it, it was very unclear. How is this going to affect people? Do people want to hear about investing or wealth creation or anything about money when they're struggling with money? They might be like, just please go away.

I'm not in the mood. But it seems like the opposite. People were craving that information. And there's been, yeah, since 2020, especially an explosion like I've never seen with a lot of content creators, a lot more different voices in the space, which has been so cool. You have a very specific kind of niche that you've carved out for yourself. How did you kind of like curate that? So tell people a little bit about your experience. So you kind of labeled yourself as that? So, you know, tell people a little bit about your, so, you know,

you kind of label yourself as neurodivergent personal finance. You're also queer, you're an educator, you're a woman. How did you, you know, kind of figure out these are the things that I really want to make sure I'm including, and this is my voice to kind of stand out, but also maybe offer a space that didn't exist before in the personal finance space. So a lot of that had to do with my own experience going through it, because especially when I started

getting into personal finance, it was largely older white men, and that was the majority. And yeah, it's great to see so much more diversity nowadays. Like it's so great. I feel like there's a voice for just almost anyone now to find someone that looks like them and has had similar experiences them. But when I was starting out, it wasn't like that. And so I really felt like there was a lot of information that I couldn't relate to. And it didn't feel like they were speaking to me and

they weren't on my level and they didn't understand what I was going through as like a younger person. And so I already kind of identified that gap. And then as I started creating more finance content and started working with clients and talking to more people, I just kept thinking there's got to be something that I'm missing here. Like there's more to people's financial struggles than just the numbers. Like you can manipulate the numbers all you want, but there still seems to be something, you know, there that's missing. And I, you know, I had clients that were making a lot of money and that weren't living in scarcity and like had no problem covering

their bills, but they're still struggling to save money or still struggling to reach their goals. And it's like, okay, what else is going on here? So that kind of prompted me to take a more identity focused approach to finance. And that's when I started talking, you know, first about my own experience of having ADHD and being queer and being a woman. And then it's kind of expanded into a lot more than that. And my approach is really like, let's look at the person first and think about how aspects of who you are, your lived experience, your culture, your mental health, your family or trauma, like how have all of these things contributed to your financial behaviors and decisions? And how can we use that

information to then create a financial plan moving forward that's actually going to be catered to your lifestyle? Because I think that's what's missing with a lot of the personal finance information out there. It does not exist in like the traditional financial planning sphere at all. I will tell you that right now. Having just been at an event that was like an internal thing and meeting a bunch of people, I'm like, oh, wow, it is a different world where we come from, where we're very free to say kind of anything and to create content that really is personal to people. Yeah. Then you kind of go into that, open the door, go into the office and see the planner. And yeah, it's a different, they're not there yet. They're not caught up. I know. I find it so ironic that it's personal

finance, but then so often it's like, okay, but forget about your personal situation. Just do this. Yeah. It's like, what life cycle are you in? What's your risk tolerance? Okay, here you go. Yeah. Some securities. And you're like, well, we missed a few things. Yes, exactly. Oh my gosh. So I'm curious, what got you interested? Cause I know obviously you're a content creator, but you mentioned that you work with individuals, helping them with their finances. What made you want to do that? I've done that before. I've hit pause on it for a little bit. It is also a very different thing to creating content. What

was your experience like? What did you find working with individuals that you're like, oh, wow, this is something that needs to be addressed? Yeah. I also took a pause while writing my book. Oh, yeah. As you have to. that needs to be addressed. Yeah. I also took a pause while writing my book. It was way too much. Yeah. But I've been a coach basically my entire life. So I did competitive gymnastics as a kid, and I started coaching gymnastics basically while I was still doing gymnastics and then up until adulthood. And I actually have a background in kinesiology. That's what my bachelor degree is in.

And my major was adapted physical activity. So I was working with folks with disabilities. That was like my main focus. And so I worked a lot with different organizations, did a lot of volunteering and coaching. And so I've done a lot of like the fitness coaching and movement kind of coaching in the past. And then my job that I got laid off from when the pandemic started was working in a financial aid office. And so I was doing a lot of like, I would be in a private meeting room and I would speak with families or folks with disabilities and basically

talk about their situation, what they're going through, and then I would help them get access to different resources in the community and get access to the recreation center in different ways. So that's always kind of been a part of who I am. And that's something that I find very important and that I get a lot of fulfillment from doing. I love connecting with people and I love being able to create a safe space for people. And so it kind of was like a natural progression with the finance space. And I also, I'm not a financial advisor and I knew that I didn't want to provide that type of advice because that is available. There's great financial advisors out there that can do that. And I wanted to take the approach of more of a coach and helping you with like your systems and your mindset and, um, the, yeah, the way you think about things,

the approach you take and the general understanding and financial literacy part, as opposed to like, here's your retirement planning, here's your investment portfolio and those types of things. So yeah, I love doing it. I love connecting with people. Right now, it's hard for me to do one-on-one coaching just with all of the other things going on. So I do a group program and I love doing that as well because it's amazing to see people like come together and they think that they're the only one struggling and then they start talking about it on the call and everyone else in the group is like, me too. I feel the exact same way. So that's really cool to witness.

And yeah, that's a part of my career that I'm, I'm really able to form those connections with people that sometimes is hard when you're just creating content. You can't connect with people in the same way. It really does change how I think you create content. Like that's definitely what I found is you just have a more personal connection to the people that you're creating. You're not just creating content based on like SEO or something like that. It's like, you know, there's an actual person you've talked to that you have a good sense

of what they're going through on the other end of it. So yeah, I think that's super, super important. And then I guess now, like you mentioned, you have a book coming out, Keeping Finance Personal. How did that come about? And obviously, you know, we've kind of already touched on some of the topics that are going to be inside the book. But you know, how did you approach this book? Because again, you're probably similar to me, you've read a lot of personal finance books, sometimes they are honestly the same thing. You're like, I think I've read this before. How did you want to make sure this would hit people a bit differently, that people would grab this and be like, oh, this is was a gap in that information and yeah, reading all the finance books that I have read. So many of them are really the same information, but you're just, you're reading it in a different way because you're, it's through the voice of the author is.

And that, you know, it's funny, like my favorite finance books are often just because I really enjoy the way that person speaks and their kind of take on things, but it is a lot of the same information. And I feel like that information is out there. People know that they can look up the steps to building wealth, but that's not what they're missing. There's obviously something else that's going on. And so I wanted to fill that gap of like understanding why you make decisions and where those decisions come from and where your beliefs around money come from and how the way you interact with the world influences your decisions and how your identity, you know, subjects you to privilege or systems of oppression and how that's going to influence the way that you build wealth and things like that. So it was a lot of through my own journey, but then also working with clients and kind

of getting, you know, hearing those types of things over and over again. And I did the trauma of money certification a little while ago. That was actually after I had signed my book deal and I was already working on the book. But that like further solidified, I think, the concept of my book and also really opened my eyes to even more about trauma specifically and how that impacts our money. And yeah, I think it's just something that needs to exist. People need to start looking. If the money things that you've been trying just aren't working for you, I think you need to look at the personal aspect and understand how that connects with money. And that's what keeping

finance personal is going to do. Now, I know I'm sure a lot of what's in the book and the content you create is like you kind of mentioned, based on your own personal experiences, you want to kind of share a little bit more, you know, what were some barriers that you, you know, you kept on, you know, like, how can I not overcome this? Or why am I not progressing with my finances when I'm doing XYZ, like all these books are saying? And how did you figure out, oh, maybe it's my ADHD, maybe it's this, maybe it's that? How did that. How were you able on your own to figure some of these things out? Yeah. So with ADHD specifically, I had already started my personal finance journey.

I had consumed all the information. I knew all the things to do. And I was making changes. But I still felt like there was a lot of things that I wasn't able to change, even though I was aware of them. And I was like trying to implement the things that people have told me to implement. And so, yeah, I was like still struggling with impulse spending a lot. I was still struggling to stick to a budget. I was like trying all different types of budgeting templates and like, you know, hearing people talk about how amazing they were and then being like,

I cannot stick to this for more than three days and struggling to stay organized. And I was like forgetting about things and it just, yeah. So I was still struggling and I couldn't really figure out why. And then when I got diagnosed with ADHD and I started to learn more about how ADHD affects people, I started to put a lot of the puzzle pieces together and understand like, oh wow. So much of it is just because my brain thinks about things differently and needs different systems and needs a different type of motivation than neurotypical people. And so making those tweaks and changing those things was when I saw the most success with my financial stability.

And that kind of rings true for all of the other aspects, too. Even coming out as queer, I have a story in the book where I talk about how I used to very much dress and act in a way to like avoid this identity that I was like, not, you know, coming to terms with. And so I spent a lot of money on like my clothes, on my makeup, on my hair. And again, nothing wrong with spending money on those things, but it was something that I didn't actually feel aligned to spend money on. It was just a way of like avoiding who I was. And so then when I was able to come to terms with that, that also changed my finances. My spending behaviors changed a lot when I came out and realized like, why am I doing this? Like, I actually don't want to wear these clothes. I don't want to, you know, do my makeup every day. That's not me. And so, yeah, all of those things were tied to who I was. And so, yeah, all of those things were tied to who I was. And those are the things that have actually made the biggest difference for me. I mean, that's such an interesting way to think about it. Just like if you go through a practice

of looking at your spending for the past couple months, that's a great way. And if you feel like, you know, there's all these things you're like, I'm not really happy with where my money is going. I'm not happy with me, but I don't know why. I can't find the answer. Sometimes looking at your spending will give you some, you know, a few breadcrumbs to be like, maybe it's because, yeah, you're running away from something. You're trying to be someone who you aren't. You're not, you know, really following, you know, your authentic self or your personal values. And if you figure that out, then you can start figuring out, okay, who am I then? And how can I change things for the better? I want to kind of talk a little bit more about

the ADHD component, just because, you know, it is actually, you know, being talked about a lot more in the personal finance space. What were some, you know, once you were able to kind of figure out that connection, what were some systems that you were able to create for yourself that may not make sense for someone else, but for you, you're like, this works for me. And the other systems that all these other books say, they never worked. This does, though. Yeah, that's a great question. I try to think of like the biggest things that that don't work for other people.

Or they work for other people. But, you know, just like when you said, you know, the budget, it's like I always tell people budgets work, but they may not work for everyone or you have to create one in a different way to work more for you. Like I have, you know, budget spreadsheets. They may, you know, some people are like, this is too complicated for me. I'm like, fair. They may not work for everybody. Whereas there was other people were like, I need something really complex and all these features and all this stuff. So it's like, you can never

make everyone happy. Yeah. But you know, I know for lots of people, I know, I feel like you've talked a lot about the importance of automating things. I think that's good for everybody. But especially if someone, you know, like yourself, it's like, sometimes I feel like I just want to spend. But if you have systems in place that prevent some of these kind of emotional responses, maybe you can kind of, you know, hit the gap or the breaks a little bit. Definitely one of them is like gamifying basically everything and building reward systems in. So I need to feel excited about whatever the system is. So like if you take a budget, for example, there has to be something about it that is like almost like a game

to me so whether there's a prize at the end that I'm working towards or whether it's like color coordinated in a certain way that's maybe it like I don't know yeah it's pleasing to the eye some sort of thing yeah um like cel sheets where there's like a little plant that grows you know like a thing like that um or I'm like doing it with a friend and it's like a little plant that grows, you know, like a thing like that. Um, or I'm like doing it with a friend and it's like a competition with someone else or something like that. There needs to be an aspect that's like always like a game and whether it's against me or just against, uh, someone else, but it has to be something like that. And reward systems are huge for me. So I love sticker charts and I always say like, I don't know why we stopped using sticker charts when we became

adults, because they're the best things ever. So yeah, basically, I'll have a, for example, maybe it's something like every time I try to think of a translatable example, maybe it's like every time I save $10, I put a sticker on the chart. And then I'll have the goal of like saving, I don't know, $200 for something. And so then once I reach that $200, not only do I get to like go buy that thing, but then I'll also have some little reward that I've decided ahead of time is going to be at the end. It doesn't have to be a monetary reward. It just has to be something that feels special. So that might

be, I don't know, maybe I'll make my favorite cookies or maybe I'll watch, uh, I don't know, I'll spend the whole Saturday afternoon watching my favorite TV I'll watch, I don't know, I'll spend the whole Saturday afternoon watching my favorite TV show or like, I don't know, something that feels special to you. It obviously can be different per person, but that's another big thing that even the small financial steps, I need to feel some sort of reward or get some sort of dopamine from doing. So the things that are second nature to a lot of neurotypical people and that they are

just like adulting responsibilities that they would just automatically go and do, I need to have some sort of extra sprinkle of flavor on there. I'm curious what your experience has been like with investing, especially talking about like the impulse control. We see that with just people that don't have ADHD that feel super inclined because of the systems in place with like apps that make it really easy to trade, going in there, checking too often, getting notifications. So they're thinking all the time and then maybe doing something that isn't in their best interest for long-term wealth creation. What are some things that you have

done to make sure that you don't kind of fall into some of these traps? Because I mean, it is just, that is like one of the biggest issues I feel like, especially with young investors is all of these apps that are out there are making it kind of like, there's no barriers. There's no, there needs to be some gatekeeping a little bit or like something to prevent you from making a really expensive mistake

because you can press a button and bam, your money's gone. Yes. I am luckily not someone that get, I don't get a lot of dopamine from trading. So for me, I just don't have notifications on. So I don't get notifications about those things. I also just don't check my investments very often. So I'll have it like scheduled, you know, like once a month or something. Well, I'll go and check, but otherwise it's just going to be automated.

So I don't have to look at it. And that's same with my savings. I keep my savings very like out of sight, out of mind. Uh, but I think that if you are someone that struggles with that, like robo advising is a great option. I mean, you can tell me your input too, but I think that if you know that about yourself, like that's another, that's where this personal aspect comes in. If you know that you are someone who is going to maybe hyper-focus on trading and be staying up all night and be stressing about things and then ultimately making maybe not the best decisions, then get a robo-advisor and just don't touch it. Yeah, maybe trading, maybe doing self-directed investing is not a good thing for you.

Because yeah, I give the example all the time of my husband. Maybe doing self-directed investing is not a good thing for you. Yeah. I give the example all the time of my husband. You know, we've kind of done all the different options. But, you know, advisor, then robo-advisor, then he wanted to do self-directed and help him set it up. And it just made him really unhappy. He was anxious a lot and wasn't sure if he was doing it right, all these things. I'm like, this is just not the path for you. Let's go back to a robo-advisor because, yeah, you shouldn't have access to this stuff. And that's okay. That's okay. Everyone's different. You need to kind of,

yeah, like you said, really figure out who you are, what you should do and shouldn't do because we, yeah, sometimes we need something in the way so we don't accidentally just blow all our money on something. Yes, exactly. And if you do really enjoy that, I think a kind of workaround is like giving yourself a budget of like a small amount to play with and invest how you want to, but making sure that's like a small percentage of the overall amount that you're investing. So that way, if you lose all that money, it's not going to be detrimental to your retirement. But I guess along the same lines, too, is I see a lot of this. And I believe like part of your journey is you were in debt, but I wasn't sure if that was a

student debtor or consumer debt. But, you know, credit cards, lines of credit, it's, again, so accessible these days. And especially if you have some of these kind of impulses, it's, again, very easy just to go down that hole, you know, the rabbit hole, and then it's hard to dig yourself out. Do you want to kind of share a little bit more about your personal debt story? And then also just some things that you've learned that, you know, again, can help people either stay out of debt, get out of debt, not get into more debt. So I had $35,000 of debt and 20,000 of that was student loan debt. And then 15,000 was line of credit and credit card. And that 15,000 was basically entirely from impulse spending. Oh, really?

So that was money that like, I genuinely can't tell you the majority of what that money went towards. Like it was like me just blacking out and shopping and looking at my credit card statement and being like, I don't remember this. I know that a chunk of it was spent on traveling. And that was also impulsive because I would basically book a trip on a whim and be like, I'm going to go somewhere in two weeks. So let's book it now. And so I would, you know, pay more because I'm booking

it last minute. And then I'm like scrambling to find places and I don't really have the money to do it. And, um, that I'm using my credit card on the trip and things like that. So yeah, that being diagnosed with ADHD helped a lot in understanding my impulsiveness for me was largely linked to being either, well, usually understimulated. So basically like bored and it gave me dopamine. It was also like a coping mechanism because I felt so out of control with my finances and honestly out of control in a lot of areas of my life, that felt like an area of control because I was the one making the purchases, even though it was very out of control. You know, it's so funny that you mentioned that. I feel like it was just on Instagram recently. And I don't know if these ever go in your feed,

but I see a lot of them. And I'm like, I don't know why people are showing this to me, but this really isn't for me. But it's like these young people being like, oh, I'm unhappy. And they just book a trip to Paris. And you're like, don't do that. Don't do that. But it's funny when you're just saying that story that's literally a very similar story to when you talked to Gabe Dunn recently and they went to Paris on a whim. They're like, yeah, Impulse didn't have a place to stay or anything like that. I'm like, okay, yeah, that could be dangerous. Yeah, yeah. And in the moment it feels like I'm taking the reins and I'm making this decision and you're not thinking of the future repercussions. Then obviously looking

back on it, you're like, wow, I was really not in control of that. I was like impulsive and not paying attention to what I was doing. But yeah, it's interesting when you're in it, it feels a lot different. I'm curious just with ADHD, do you have more of a focus on the present instead of the future? Is that one of the issues that you struggle? Or maybe this isn't an ADHD thing at all, but I'm curious. It seems like with the impulse especially, is it more like you're present focused instead of future focused? So there's different types of ADHD, and I am the combined type.

So that means that I experience both inattentiveness, which is kind of like the daydreamer, but then also the kind of hyperactivity impulsivity. So for me personally, I feel like I'm either in the moment and very impulsive and like, I will not think about the future repercussions at all, or I'm like daydreaming about very far in the future, but then I can't connect how it will do that, how to do it. How do I get from my present to my future? So it's like either really far in the future or very current. I know a lot of other folks with ADHD struggle with any sort of future planning. So in that like experiment they did with the marshmallows with children, most people with

ADHD would choose the one marshmallow in front of them and not wait to get the second marshmallow. Um, and that's, that's pretty common, but it obviously manifests a little different for everyone. So yeah, that was a thing for me. I was like, I'm going to enjoy myself in the moment. Or it's like, I know down the road that I want to have a comfortable retirement and I want to be debt free, but like like that seems like so far away and so impossible right now that I'm just not going to think about it. I mean, that's a problem with I think most people is having a hard time picturing the future because especially I feel like when you're in 20s, you just feel like you have so much runway. You have so many years. And then I mean, I'm 37. I'm

like, oh, my gosh, how did this happen? Time just goes by so quickly. Get groceries delivered across the GTA from Real Canadian Superstore with PC Express. Shop online for super prices and super savings. Try it today and get up to $75 in PC Optimum Points. Visit superstore.ca to get started. It's like, what are some ways in your mind, especially for young people, because, you know, especially personal finance, it's all about like long term. It's always think about do what you can as soon as you can. You'll be better off for it. Easier said than done.

What are some mechanisms that you've been able to, you know, include in some of your content or help your clients, whether even in your own life to not just have this like thinking about today, but thinking about tomorrow, especially when it's decades. Cause even for me, I'm like, I cannot imagine being 65, but then I'm doing the math. I'm like, that's actually not that far, you know, like it is, but it's not, you know? Yes. So my biggest tip is to break the goal down into like the smallest possible pieces. So if you have a goal of buying a home in like five or 10 years and you, you know, kind of figure out how much money you need for a down payment and how much closing costs, whatever you're saving up. And then you divide that amount by like five years and then you have your yearly

amount and then you divide that by like 12 months. So you have your monthly amount. And so basically you're focusing on the immediate gratification kind of goals. So like the thing that's right in front of you. So with a lot of my clients with ADHD, we will map out the long-term goal together, but then really all they're focusing on is like the six months to maybe one year goals. But we've, we know that it's going to set them up to get that long-term goal, but it's no longer, don't think about paying off $20,000 of debt. Think about paying off $500 of debt. And like, and that's where the reward systems come into, like give yourself a reward on every single little tiny milestone. Even if it feels silly

when you're doing it, that's going to help you build the momentum to keep going and like, feel like you're actually achieving the goal. And if you celebrate those little milestones as if they were the $20,000 debt payoff, like that makes you feel more excited and more positive. Whereas if you're just kind of treating it like, oh, I only paid off $500. Now I have $19,500 more to pay off. Then like that sucks. That does not feel good. And so that's going to be a lot harder to stick to in the long term. Yeah, no, yeah, that's, I mean, such great advices. Because yeah, when you think about any kind of big goal, even just like I need a million or $2 million with inflation for retirement, and you know, by 65, this just sounds impossible. Or even buying a house that sounds impossible,

because houses are ridiculous. But if you break things down, it becomes a little bit more possible, though. I don't know some of the things. know how much is crazy right now. I don't know what to say about that one. Yeah. But then the goal can become, instead of the goal being buying a home, the goal is saving, what, $4,000 this year. Yeah. And then even if your goal shifts and changes, you still have $4,000 that you saved, which then maybe can be for a different goal. Maybe you decide you don't want to buy a home, but you're going to buy an RV and drive around the US. Then you could put that money towards the RV or something like that. So at least you're still working towards something. And if that goal ends up not being something that works out, you're still making those little steps

towards. Yeah. I feel like that's a really hard thing in personal finance, especially because I feel like it's really based on these really structured rules. And we don't talk enough about adaptation and adapting to change. And so I talked to so many people, like they reach their emergency fund goal, and then they actually have to use their emergency fund and they don't feel comfortable doing it because they're like, oh, I don't want to ruin it. The whole point was to use it and to adapt. This is why we have that. Or yeah, you lose your job, and then you need to figure out something else. But it's hard to not be like, I'm a failure. Oh, my gosh, this wasn't the plan. It's hard to change course. I don't know. I mean, you've been able to adapt quite well over the past couple of years. But, you know, how have you been able to manage change? Because I feel like that is the hardest thing that people deal with is struggling with

having a plan change and not knowing if am I doing this right? Because we're all trying to figure out if this is the right path. Yes. Well, I think first off, nobody knows what they're doing. So I know people say that all the time, but like quite honestly, nobody knows what they're doing. And even people like me and you in the finance space, like we make financial mistakes. Like it happens all the time. So I think it's easy from the outside to be like everyone else knows what they're doing. They're just making it look like they know what they're doing.

That's the big lie. Yeah. So I will say my emergency fund, definitely that protected me. I had an emergency fund when I was laid off in the pandemic. And that was like a big thing that I talked about with my content.

I was like, if I didn't have this, I don't know what I would have done. And I was still very stressed and very scared when that happened, but I didn't have to worry about money. And I think that provides so much mental space to think about other things. I like to call my emergency fund, my safety fund. And I found like for me personally, changing the language on that has been helpful. I know other people call it solution fund, or like you can name it something funny if you are more clever than I am.

I'm not good at the punny names, but those types of things like reframing how you think about it is like it's not just for emergencies. It's just like a safety net. So like that money is there to catch me when I fall. And this would be an instance like getting laid off, you know, making a financial mistake, like that money's there to, to be that safety net. I also think going back to what we said earlier, like talking about it with people and like having someone in your life that you can actually open up to about your financial struggles is so, so important because it's so easy to feel isolated and to feel like you're the only one and that, you know, you're the problem and you just have to figure it out when in reality, like there are so many larger societal systems at play that I think are more to blame for a lot of people's individual financial situation than the

individual themselves. And like, we can talk about the cost of living. We could talk about inflation. We can talk about, you know, all of those things, like those have a bigger impact than you overspending a couple of months in a row. Yeah, Yeah. It's like, it's not the latte anymore. So it's definitely something else that's making, you know, rent increase by 50% and stuff like that. Oh my gosh. Yeah. It's, it's, yeah. I'm curious too, cause you are a younger person. I don't know your age, but you're, you're definitely younger than me. How are younger people, like, what is the vibe out there? I'm curious. Cause I, you know, I grew up as a millennial when millennials were, like, young. Now I'm older.

And we, you know, complain, like, oh, we've got it tough. Man, I look at what's going on for young people. I'm like, that's tough, man. Like, that's so much tougher. I feel like, personally, tougher than what I went through. And that makes me sad. What, how are, you know, younger people, especially in their twenties or just finishing universities, you know, coping really? Yeah. I mean, I'm kind of in the middle because yeah, I'm 28 about, I turned 29 soon. And so I was like already graduated, you know, before the pandemic. And

I know that, you know, people that were in school or just graduating like that, I can't imagine how that experience must be. And like, I, I don't know what that feels like. I also kind of, I escaped the 2008 financial crisis. Like I was too young. So I kind of like, um, right in the middle of two huge traumatic events that didn't necessarily affect me coming out of school, but affected me in other ways. But yeah, you know, to be honest, I, I don't know if I know exactly all of the repercussions that are like currently happening. I think that's an interesting thing that's going on right now is like, I'm still trying to gather that information of like, how is this affecting?

Yeah. I mean, we probably won't know for like another five, 10 years, just like the millennials after the 2008 crash, it wasn't clear how things were going to go into like five or 10 years later. But yeah. Or just even for you, like, what are your thoughts on just like, yeah, like, I mean, I've never experienced a cost of living crisis like this. I've never experienced, you know, inflation interest rates, housing prices were crazy back when I was 25. And now they're ridiculous, like they're ridiculous now. Like, you know, how does that? I mean, for me, I'm just like, it seems like how could people not be just like absorbed with hopelessness with what's going on? And how do you kind of get out of that mindset? How do you motivate yourself when things feel like they're just falling apart? Yeah. Okay. So I feel like a couple of things. I

feel like first off, we can learn a lot from past traumatic events. And I actually, I have a chapter of this on the book, in my book, talking about, I talk about 9-11, the 2008 financial crisis, and the pandemic as it was up until that moment, which was like 2022. And so I talk about what we can learn from these events and also how they affect different generations and how different generations like learn different things from them. And so I think that's one thing on the tangible side that we can implement right away. Like there are some things that we know, like emergency funds are very helpful. Having a diversified investment portfolio is good. Having a will and like knowing, you know, what's if something were

to happen, what's going to happen with your financial assets, like having those systems in place. And just in general, the need for financial literacy, I think, has increased a lot, like the understanding of like the decisions that you make now, how they're going to affect you later. And I think that young people have less trying to think of what the word is. They have less space to make mistakes, I think. And they don't really have that the same twenties of like figuring it out and, and driving things. It's kind of like, they're almost being forced to grow up a little faster and skip the like, I'm in my 20s. I'm having fun. I'm living life. Yeah, you have a whole decade just to mess around. Like that was the advice. Well, not my parents did, but like the overall like kind of message

when I was in my 20s, like, oh, don't worry about your 20s. You can figure it out in your 30s. And for me, I'm like type A. I'm like, well, that's not for me. I'm going to like just go hard into like reading personal finance books and learn about budgeting in my 20s. But that was the advice. And I'm like, gosh, I'm glad I didn't take that advice because then I mean, you hit 30 and then you're like, shoot, now I have to start from scratch. But yeah, I think that's really accurate that younger people have to kind of grow up a bit quicker just because things are just a little bit harder. And not to even mention that the fact that they have to kind of figure out how to take care of themselves and then also there's their their parents that are getting older and retired and can they afford retirement because again things have changed it's not like they you know maybe they were going to graduate or retire with debt and all this kind of stuff it's just yeah it's just

a lot yeah in terms of like the mindset I would say that really getting clear and defining what success means to you and what wealth means to you is so important because a lot of us just follow the recipe of our parents. And we, we, you know, for people that did see their parents become successful and, you know, have a job that supported their family and that maybe had a home and are going to be able to retire. They see that and they say, okay, if I just do what my parents did, then I'll have a good life too. But the same thing doesn't work anymore. And it's also a lot of it isn't possible anymore. Like, you know, pension plans are not what they used to be. And it's like not really feasible to be, you know, live on a single income. Like my mom didn't work for a number of years. I'm like, that is not like

most people need to work because we need both incomes to pay for all the things, you know? Things have changed. Yeah. So if you were to like ignore what your parents told you to do, or your caregivers told you to do, or like ignore the kind of like American dream and think about realistically where life is right now, where your finances and career are right now, what would your version of success look like and what would be possible for you? And I think like redefining that can actually be encouraging and like helpful because then you realize like, oh, I don't need to just achieve these things that I'm told I need to achieve.

I can do this other route and still be very happy and very fulfilled and still be comfortable. And it's my own version of comfortable and my own version of like, what is enough for me? And I think that can be helpful in hard times. They're still hard. They're always going to be hard, but it's never, I don't know if it was actually ever easy. Maybe there's a few years here and there in history, but I mean, going back to the, what you're saying about the identity, that's, it makes a lot of sense. It's like we, I think a lot lost ourselves in trying to follow this path that someone else set, but we never really had any say in is this even the path that I want? So my advice to someone who's well into her 30s is figure that out sooner rather than later, because not that it's ever too late to change and like go back

to school or really switch things up. But it's a lot easier to change when you're younger. There's a lot less on the line. Yes. There's a great book I read a couple of years ago and I read it probably like five years ago. So I'm not sure how it would be now, but it's called The Defining Decade. I was just going to be like, if you say The Defining Decade, oh my God, that's so funny. I love that book. I read that when I was maybe 31 or something. And so I like finished my defining day. I'm like, but I'm like, Oh, this is encouraging. I think I did a lot of good things. Yeah. It's a great book. I feel like it, that was a really big mindset shift for me because I was kind of in that like YOLO twenties phase. And then yeah, that book is

basically what you were just talking about is addressing how if you set yourself up in your 20s, you'll set yourself up for life. Like it'll have such a huge impact. So I would recommend that book. And there's still space for self-exploration. Like I feel like there's so much pressure to explore all assets or aspects of yourself in your 20s. And then you have to stick with whoever you set up for yourself at 30. Like 30 is like you're defined. And then you have to stay that person. It's like, no, you can you can continue to change. Like my husband is going back to school for something. And, you know, so it's like it's it's never too late. But again, that's not the message we usually get. We usually say do

everything when you're young. And then when you're old, you just got to, you know, not it's like, no, you can literally do whatever you want, actually that's such a great point I feel like that that even goes back to like the the pattern of success or the the outline of success is like in your 20s you're figuring out exploring doing what you want and then it's like career job yeah and then family house dog blah blah blah yeah can't do anything fun until you retire you have to stop exploring like. Like that's no fun. Yeah. And that like really ties into the like, oh, you want to travel, you want to do all these things and you're past your twenties. Well, now you have to wait till retirement. Like, yeah. And you're like, my knees are not going to be what they are, you know, or like my knees are bad now. Like I'm not

going to be backpacking at 65, you know? Yeah. Yeah. I will. I will also say, I will also recommend Die With Zero. The book was really helpful for that aspect because, um, the author Bill Perkins talks about how your money should be spent like a bell curve. And so you're spending your money all throughout your life and you basically die with zero, like basically hardly any money is the goal. Whereas most people will die with like, they'll still have money left. And that doesn't really, it doesn't enhance your life. And then usually if they pass it on to their children, their children are already financially stable at that point because they're a lot older. And so it doesn't help them a lot either. So, um, yeah, I think like finding ways to enjoy your life throughout your life. And maybe

that means like, you know, some people are doing those like mini retirements, like every three years they do a little, you know, take a month off or take some time off or whether it's just like saving up money for trips throughout the years and putting a little bit less towards retirement. Still, still prioritizing that, but also prioritizing actually living and enjoying your life. Yeah. Yeah. No, I think there's a lot of stats out there too that, that show the amount of money that

people leave when they die. And it's just like how like how you know we're so paranoid of not having enough and i don't actually think that is like the truth of it most people end up like if they are proactive and saving they have enough it's usually the people that maybe didn't start saving soon enough that you know end up with kind of a shortfall anyways i i know we could probably talk for a long time but um i'll just have to have you back on the show at some point in the future. But I'm so excited that you have your book coming out, Keeping Finance Personal. What's the subtitle of the book again? It's Ditch the Shoulds and the Shame and Rewrite Your Money Story. Oh, I love that. I think that's so like the money story component, I think is such an important

element. I love that. Well, I'm so excited for you to have your book come out. I think it's a really important book. I'm so excited for people to read it. Where can people find more information about you, your website, you on social media? I feel like I read something that you have a podcast. Where can people find you? Yeah. So I'm a bad, not bad, but I'm not the best social media person in that I have different names on every platform, which is not the recommended thing. But on Instagram, it's Elise.Fulmore. And then on TikTok, it's Queer.Co, I believe. I'll link to everything in the show notes, but just so people listening, they can look you up right now. Yeah, and Queer.Co is the name of my financial literacy company. And right now my podcast is on a hiatus, but it will be hopefully coming back at

the end of this month. Yeah. So by the time this airs, it will be live. But and what's it called? Yes. It's called Dopamine Dollars. Perfect. That is a new title. So I've renamed the podcast and it's going to have, yeah, a little bit more of an ADHD focus for the podcast. Yeah. I love that. I don't think that exists. So that's great. Yeah. And then lastly, if you're interested in pre-ordering the book, you can go to queeredco.com slash book and that'll have all those different sites you can buy it from. Or if you want to just go directly, you can go to Amazon, Bards and Nobles, Books A Million, Bookshop, all of the main kind of outlets. Amazing. Well, thanks so much, Elise, for joining me on the podcast. It was

so great having you on. Yeah, thank you so much for having me. And that was episode 385 with Elise Fulmore. Make sure to check out her website at queeredco.com. You, of course, can follow her on Instagram at Elise.Fulmore and TikTok at queered.co. And her book is called Keeping Finance Personal, which you can pre-order now. And I will link to everything because I know we mentioned a few other links in this episode. In the show notes for this episode, just go to jessicamorehouse.com slash 385. And if you want to find an episode show notes, you know, more information about any of the podcast episodes you've learned for the past eight years, they are literally all on my website. Just go to jessicamorehouse.com slash podcast or jessicamorehouse.com

slash the number of that particular episode. And if you're looking for something and it's, you know, getting hard to find with my search or whatever, just hit me up. Email me, Jessica at Jessica Morehouse.com. I don't mind. I really don't. I'm happy to help you and guide you to whatever episode you are looking for. So I have a few things to share with you because my gosh, we only have two more episodes to go. So do not go away. Do you want to figure out where your money is going? Do you want to organize your finances once and for all? Do you want to feel less anxious about your money? Well, I have a great tool for you, my collection of budget spreadsheets, which you can find

at jessicamorehouse.com slash shop. These new and improved budget spreadsheets have helped thousands of people over the years. And these are honestly the budget spreadsheets that me and my husband still use today. They come in Google Sheets and Excel. They also come with a comprehensive video tutorial to show you exactly how it works. And they're very easy to use. Not only that, I've got versions for pretty much any scenario. So if you're an employee, I've got a budget spreadsheet for that. If you are self-employed, I've got a budget spreadsheet for that. If you're in a couple and one of you is an employee and one of you is self-employed, I've got a budget spreadsheet for that. If you're in a couple and one of you is an employee and one of you is self-employed, I've got a budget spreadsheet for that. I've got seven different budget spreadsheets for any kind of situation. So no matter what's going on in your

life and your income, I've got a budget spreadsheet for you. So if you want to take action and see some progress with your finances, this is one really easy step that you can take right after listening to this episode. Just go to jessicamoorehouse.com slash shop, find the right budget spreadsheet for you, and then start making some moves that future you will be really, really thankful for. Okay, just a few little things to share with you. So number one, reminder, I'm giving away a ton of books, including her book,

and you can find it at jessicamoorehouse.com slash contest. You will find all the books that I'm giving away right there. Apply to all of them or enter to win all of them. I don't care. You will only win one if you were a lucky winner. And I will be drawing winners sometime in January because some of these books that are on the show are not out until January. So JessicaMoorhouse.com slash contest is where you can find information about that. What else is happening with me? My gosh, I can't believe we're already. Oh, my gosh. We're like full on holiday season. So, yeah, I mean, you know, I've got nothing. I'm like running off of fumes, you guys. You know, I'm like almost done the manuscript for

this book and it is taking every brain cell. And I don't know if there's much left. I'm surprised. When I was actually talking to Elisa, she's like, I'm surprised you're still doing the podcast. I'm like, I know. I actually love doing the podcast. It doesn't feel like work. I mean, it's literally me just talking to smart people, amazing, inspirational people about money, my favorite topic. So it doesn't actually feel like that much hard work if I'm perfectly honest. But with that, I will share who is going to be on the show next week, my final guest of the season. She's also huge on social media, like huge, like I will never reach those heights. And I don't

aim to quite honestly, I like being where I'm at. I have Vivian Tiu on the show. So she is my rich BFF. You may have seen her on TikTok and Instagram and YouTube and wherever. And I think she has a podcast right now with one of the financial institutions down in the US. And she has a book coming out called Rich AF. And I want to know how we can get Rich AF and how she was able to just amass such a huge following. It's kind of incredible what she was able to curate over the past couple years. So I'm really excited to have her on the show. And with that, I will thank my podcast editor, Matt Rideout, as always. And I will see you back here for my final episode of the season finale next Wednesday. Thank you so much for listening, supporting this show. I will see the season finale next Wednesday. Thank you so much for listening,

supporting this show. I will see you back here next week. This podcast is distributed by the Women in Media Podcast Network. Find out more at womeninmedia.network.