More Money Podcast - 389 Career First, Job Second: Breaking into the C-Suite - Co-Authors of Career Forward, Grace Puma & Christiana Smith Shi

Episode Date: February 21, 2024

What's the best path to carve out a successful career for yourself, especially if you're a woman who has to navigate unique biases and barriers like the gender pay gap and the motherhood penalty? Let's ask my next guests Grace Puma, former PepsiCo COO and Christiana Smith Shi, former Nike President of Consumer Direct. Not only have both women built decades-long careers from scratch reaching the coveted C-Suite, but they've also joined forces to share all the wisdom they've learned along the way in their new book Career Forward: Strategies from Women Who've Made It. The facts are that as women, it's still harder to reach certain career heights since we don't yet live in a perfectly equitable world. But that shouldn't stop us from trying, especially since it also means making it easier for future generations to get to the top. There are so many amazing pieces of career (and life) advice in this episode, but I think my favourite ones are thinking of your career as a growth stock and focusing on your career, not your job. I'll also be giving away a copy of their book, so make sure to visit jessicamoorhouse.com/contest to enter to win. Follow me: Instagram @jessicaimoorhouse Threads @jessicaimoorhouse TikTok @jessicaimoorhouse Facebook @jessicaimoorhouse YouTube @jessicamoorhouse LinkedIn - Jessica Moorhouse For full episode show notes and transcript visit jessicamoorhouse.com/389 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello, and welcome back to the More Money Podcast. I am so excited for you to join me. Oh, hi, my name is Jessica Morehouse. And this is episode 389 of the show. And I have a great episode for you. And it's very special. Because not only do I have one guest, no, no, no, I've got more than that. I've got two. And I feel like that's just double the fun. And not only that, but as a reminder, since last week, I am doing all my podcasts video. So if you want to watch get that visual component, you can do that by checking out the full video of this interview and last week's episode on my YouTube channel. You can find that at JessicaMorehouse.com slash YouTube or just find Jessica Morehouse within YouTube, you will

find my channel, please subscribe. And also, you know, I'm sharing little clips on social media. So if you want to follow me on the gram, no one says that anymore, except for me. You can find me at Jessica I Morehouse or follow the show at More Money Podcast on Instagram as well. So for today's episode, I have two powerhouse women who, I mean, I don't know if I'll ever achieve their level of success. Unlikely. But that's why I have them on the show so I can try to get some wisdom from them. I have got Grace Puma and Christiana Smith-Shi on the show. Grace is the former executive vice president and COO of PepsiCo and before that held senior positions with United Airlines, Kraft Foods, Motorola and Gillette. And she's also a board member of both Argonaut and Co.

and Target. And she's been ranked on the Most Powerful Latina list by Fortune magazine and recognized as the Executive of the Year by Latina Style magazine. She holds a BA in Business Administration and Economics from Illinois Benedictine University. And Christiana is the former president of Nike's Consumer Direct division, where she led the company's global retail and e-commerce business. Before that, she was a senior partner at McKinsey & Co., and she has been named one of the most influential corporate directors by Women Inc. She currently leads Lovejoy Advisors, which is focused on digitally transforming consumer and retail businesses. And she's a graduate of Stanford University and has an MBA from Harvard Business School, where she graduated as a Baker Scholar. So yeah, like, you know,

heavy hitters right here. And not only that, why they're on the show, especially together, is because they wrote a book together that is just on shelves called Career Forward Strategies from Women Who've Made It. And what they are doing is basically drawing on their decades of experience, reaching the top of Fortune 500 companies and empowering women to excel in their careers, get paid what they're worth, challenge negative stereotypes about female ambition, navigate corporate dynamics, develop leadership identities, and ultimately live a full life in and out of work. Is it possible? We will find out in this episode. So let's get to it. Well, welcome, ladies, to the More Money Podcast. I feel so privileged to have you both on the show. You have amazing careers that I can only hope to have a little bit of that

in my lifetime. So I'm thrilled to be here and to talk about your upcoming book, though I think maybe when this is released, it'll be on shelf so people can grab a copy called Career Forward. So before we really kind of dive into some of the topics in your book, which I think should serve as some really great, you know, real life examples of what you can do as a woman, because there's a lot of things that are working against us in the corporate world or in business. Let me find out a little bit more about your journeys. Grace, I want to kind of start with you. Tell me a little bit about yourself, how you were able to get yourself to where you are today.

Great. Thanks. I think it started, originally originally my path was really in procurement, global procurement. But I would say over the years, I grew into running global operations within my last position at PepsiCo. But how I got there was really being able to be strategic about my career. And that's a lot of what this book's about, thinking through, you know, where were my strengths and how do I build the strengths and the capabilities necessary to contribute to the different companies that I worked for across my career? Were you always very career focused, business oriented, like even growing up? Because, you know, it's that's it's easy to to kind of, you know, say, Oh, you know, I just as focused, but it's very difficult to do. So did you always have a very clear idea of where you wanted to go what you want to achieve? Yeah, it's a very good question. I think early on, you know, as I was growing up, I had a very

strong work ethic. And I talked a little bit in the book about starting work at like 14 and a bakery, etc. But I liked working. And I liked working hard. And I liked learning. And so those those conditions allowed me to really think through strategically about cultivating a career. So yeah, I think I always had an interest in business and an interest in having a career. But I think behind that was really being intellectually driven, enjoying work, enjoying the growth that work can provide you. So that led me to be strategic about and have ambitions around what I wanted to achieve and how I continue to take the right steps in my career to be able to grow.

Absolutely. And now, Christiana, moving over to you, tell me a little bit about your journey. How did you get to where you were today? Grace has heard this before, but I always say no one would have picked me out of a family photo to say that I ended up being president of Nike's $8 billion consumer division, right? Because I was the middle child of five. So I wasn't the oldest. I wasn't the only. I wasn't the youngest. And I wasn't even the oldest girl. So my sister's two years older than me. And I was just this little blonde kid who grew up in this big, noisy family in the Midwest. But I wanted to go somewhere. I wanted, I guess, similar to Grace, my motivation was I wanted a bigger life. I just felt like there was more out there. And I wanted to see it and I wanted to do it. And my mom, who did not have a college degree when she got married and had five kids in six years, she actually inspired me because she went back to school to get her college degree when my youngest brother started kindergarten. And subliminally, I think what we

all picked up was education. It's about education. And that was the path I took was, you know what, I'm going to try to do as well as I can in school. I'm going to try to go to the best school that I can. And I'm going to see where that takes me. So it really wasn't initially that I had some strong corporate desire, business desire. For a while, I wanted to be a cosmetologist. That's what I told my mom. But as I got into it, and this is what we say in Career Forward, I had a lot of different experiences. I had a lot of different jobs in college. I tried investment banking before graduate school. I did consulting after grad school. And ultimately, I landed in athletic consumer brands. And all of those experiences

taught me something about what I wanted to do, because I was paying attention, you know, and I was really trying to learn what I liked, who I liked, where I wanted to be what I wanted to do. And I mean, our bias is you never stop learning that about yourself. It's interesting that you mentioned that it was such a pivotal moment seeing your mom go back to school. And I think that's a really important point because there's lots of data out there that shows that women, especially kids, are watching you because you really are usually the primary parent. Everything that you do, your children really watch. And especially for young boys, seeing women in the household get a career, get that education, which traditionally we

didn't have access to is literally will change generations. So I think that's so wonderful that you brought that up because, I mean, that's the same thing. I didn't see my mom. She went to school, but she didn't finish her degree. But I saw, you know, kind of connecting to why I'm interested in personal finance, how involved she was with the finances. And that changed my life.

Yeah, I bet. And I think both Grace and I were motivated to write Career Forward and share some of the learnings because we both have kids. We both have millennial children. They're in their late 20s, early 30s. They saw us working the entire time they grew up. We both have sons. And I think you're absolutely right that it creates an underlying understanding and connection that is really different from previous generations to seeing that it's a very natural thing to have this woman in not just working, but supporting the family and leading others. Yeah, like normalizing something that was abnormal for, I mean, up until honestly recently. So, you know, I mean, up until honestly recently. So, you know, I'm curious, what made you both want to write this book? You mentioned part of the motivation was to, you know, you both have children and you really wanted to give maybe a

template for them and to inspire younger generations. But what were some of the things that you want to make sure made it into this book that maybe you haven't seen too much? Because I mean, I'd say the one book that always comes to mind, though it isn't perfect, is Lean In. I remember most women read that book. A lot of good things, a lot of things that are like, well, actually, maybe that isn't quite right. So what were some things that you want to do differently in this book? I'll start with that. I think it's really important to us, our entire book is written on empowerment, that you are in the wheel of your own career decision. So it's, you know, I think there's a lot to be said for being strategic about your career. You know, these are practical guides on how to cultivate the twists and turns that happen during

a long career. But I think there's a lot of empowerment in people owning ambition, owning achievement, and figuring out how to make the right decisions along the way to be able to get there. So it's an uplifting book. I mean, there are a lot of things in the workforce that are challenging, but we wanted to write a book that was going to be empowering and also very practical as a guide for people to maneuver it. I'd say that notion of you're driving your career or somebody else is driving your career. One way or another, things are happening that determine where you're working, what your income level is, what your opportunities are. Without a doubt, there's a lot of hurdles that you may or may not ever be able to completely avoid.

So we're not part of, I think, the tone of this book that is different from some others is we're not Pollyanna. Yeah. We're not assuming you have an Ivy League education. We're not assuming anything. We're meeting people where they are. And we're saying, own up to the fact that if you actually are mindful about your career, you can probably get someplace you actually want to go. So that would be, I think, probably the most important. The second one that we always say that we get some

looks when we say it is, don't forget that your job is not your career. And people are like, what? Your job is your job. Your job is what you are doing right now. And over are like, what? Your job is your job, okay? Your job is what you are doing right now. And over time, you want to have more and more control over the jobs that you're doing so that they are fulfilling to you, so that they do give you joy, so that you are inspired to be your best. But your loyalty ought to be to yourself, right? And to where you're trying to go. And keeping that mindset and recognizing my job is an important building block in my career, but it is what I am doing now. And that frees you up to be objective about where else you might want to go and whether this is the right thing for you at this moment in time and what else you need to do and take on to build yourself to be

in a position to get somewhere else. And also, we've seen people stagnate where they believe where they are today is, you know, I'm great at my job and getting great reviews. People love me. That's great, but that's today. And if you get too focused on your current position, you may not be thinking about where you need to go next, what skills and contributions you need to cultivate to get there. So it's like, you know, staying humble and hungry, but also, you know, never getting so complacent on your current environment as being the only environment to which to maneuver. Yeah, you can tell we're not big fans of lazy girl jobs, or quiet jobs or quiet quitting, some of these trends,

not because we don't support the notion of trying to have a life that inspires you in and out of work. We can talk about that because we completely agree with that. But because we think those are very short-term approaches to a job, we're not really approaches to a career. So yeah, if you're in a situation that's not working for you, sometimes it's very tempting to shut job, but you're not really approaches to a career. So yeah, if you're in a situation that's not working for you, sometimes it's very tempting to shut down, to bring the bare minimum and to go home at night. We would just say, you're not stuck there, right? If you're the driver of your career and you're not feeling motivated to bring the best every day because the place you're in isn't doing it for you, then start figuring out where to go and take the steps you need to take to get yourself

there. Yeah. Things aren't going to get better if you're miserable at your job and you just stay there and then you start, fine, I'm just not going to put 100% in. That's fine. But then what's the goal? What's the long-term vision? It's not a long-term strategy because eventually your boss, your manager, your co-workers, they sort of figure out. And there is really no stasis, right? Just like in physics or whatever. Eventually, you think you can just plateau, but the reality is gravity is going to pull you down. And you will eventually find that you are not competitive, that you are not, even though you thought you were phoning in the bare minimum, it isn't the bare minimum anymore. And you're going to run out of options.

And we don't want to see women in particular get themselves into that spot. Yeah, we talk a lot about, you know, we talk about in the book, you know, setting and understanding what your cardinal direction is. And we realize, and I think Christiana talked about it, that careers are very fluid. But taking the time to strategically think through, what are your passions? What are you good at? What type of environment do you want to work in? And own a positive momentum to cultivating what will it take for you to be competitive to move into those spaces. And I think that's the part that's rooted in performance, but it's also rooted in commitment

to grow and commitment to learn. And when you focus on those things, the opportunities tend to come. And then you're able to progress your career. And you're very honest about the journey of how you do that. Just kind of jumping on something you said about staying hungry, which I think is actually really important for a lot of my career before I did what I do now. And I've seen this with a lot of my friends as well. When you're unhappy with your job and then you stop really seeing the big vision of your career, and you get complacent, it really has a ripple effect. And that is how, you know, the burnout can happen. And then it's really hard to dig yourself out of it can take years. And it's funny,

because it's like, once you figure out, like, take that time outside of work to be like, what does get me excited? What does make me hungry for more? You should be doing that thing. Of course, we can, you know, acknowledge it's, you know, easier said than done. You know, sometimes it requires money, stability, you know, support, time, all these, you know, resources. But I always think, you know, when I made the decision to leave the corporate world, I used to work in marketing to do what I do now. It was the scariest thing, but I was so scared more of what would happen if I didn't do it? What if I didn't try? I'd be where I am now and probably not any happier. So I think it's really important that the staying hungry and don't focus on the job, the career, because we can get very focused on the job thinking that is the career. And I think that is the really important key point.

That's the crux of it. I think also, you know, when we think about taking leaps and, you know, being concerned about the risk, you made a huge change, right? We also talk about how can you create options for yourself or optionality, if you want to use that buzzword, to de-risk it, right? What can you do? Yes, big changes are risky. Yes, following a passion can be risky. What can you do to lay the tracks to ride on out toward that goal in a less risky way? And my example is I got out of college. I took an investment banking job at Merrill Lynch because I needed to pay back a boatload of student loans. I went to an expensive school and I borrowed a lot of money. I was six weeks into the job and I remember writing a note to myself during the training class we had to take. I am not staying

here. That was a note to myself. I was six weeks in. I had moved from San Diego, California to Manhattan. I didn't know anybody. It was like I had no safety net. So I did the work to say, hey, if this isn't right for me, I can't afford to quit right now. I just moved to New York, right? I got student loans. I need to figure out how to lay the tracks to something else. And the lay the tracks goal to me was graduate school because that's a reset point for a lot of folks, right? You go, you meet new people, you learn new things, you see a lot of careers.

And so it took me three years. And I, in the meantime, didn't go to work every day hating it. I made relationships and connections at work and I moved out of one part of Merrill Lynch into a different part of Merrill Lynch, the treasurer's office, where I could work every day with people I liked and do work I liked. I just knew I didn't want to do it long term. But by doing that for three years, I made enough money, got enough of a track record to get the recommendations, to get the application done, to go to grad school, right? And so that's where time is important, right? Because if I would have quit right then, that would have been a really rash move that got me no place. Yeah. It's really about making those plans in advance. Before,

it's like, don't, you know, I see a lot of things online about, oh, just quit your nine to five and start whatever. It's like, no, no, no. Like for me, when I quit, I was slowly putting kind of subconsciously plans, money away into an account so I could leave to have that kind of buffer because I knew that I couldn't afford to quit when I really wanted to quit. So I had to stay there a good like six months after the fact to make sure this was stable. And I also had my plan B and C. If this doesn't work out, that's fine. I'll get another job. I'll go back to school. I can do these different things. What you just said is so important because Grace and I talk about that too, which is the better you are at what you're doing and the more intentional you are, the more options

you create for yourself so that you always have a plan B. We talk a lot about professional equity and the whole book is rooted that that's table stakes. Okay. Performance is table stakes. Building professional equity is what really unleashes you to be able to have opportunities, to be able to be considered for new things. So you really have to have that kind of mindset that says, and it isn't a stagnant thing. It's like, where am I going to be able

to add value? How can I build different skill sets? And how do I make myself best positioned to be able to compete or enter different career paths? And that's really critical because professional equity is very different than getting a good rating on your performance review of your day. It's completely different. I know you mentioned something in the book about thinking yourself and your career as a growth stock. I thought that was a really interesting way of framing it. And also, I really like it because I think if you just frame things differently, sometimes it clicks. And I'm like, that makes a lot more sense and sounds a lot more exciting than, oh, I have to keep on training and learning. I'm tired. But if you think of yourself as you're like a growth stock, you are your own company, basically. And, you know, you need to build that equity.

You need to reinvest into the business to make sure you're more valuable. As someone who's in finance, I really like that. We do, too. Yeah, I think that's I think that's a critical analogy that everybody can use. And if you just step back and you say, well, what is a growth stock? Growth stock is think of any company that comes to mind for you. Let's say Apple, for example. There's some characteristics of thinking and having a mindset like a growth stock company. If you apply it, they're always investing. They're looking around the corners on what's

the next area to add value. They're growing. They're returning value back on a consistent basis. So if you apply that to yourself, you're going to be in a mode to say, you know, I'm going to continue to grow and invest myself and learn because it's going to make me the best I can be as I go down that journey of my career. And that's actually invigorating. That's not exhausting. That's actually invigorating. Yeah. Yeah. When you think of it in a different way, it's more exciting. And I would add, in addition to investing in yourself because you think of yourself as a growth stock, others will invest in you.

That's right. And we talk a lot in the book too about needing supporters, right? Needing people who are advocates for you, who will tell you when you're astray, who will look out for opportunity for you, who will help open doors for you. I mean, I've listened to a number of your podcasts and most of the women can highlight others who have really helped create opportunity for them. Why? Because those people looked at them and said, she's going someplace and I'm excited to be

a part of that. And I'm going to invest my time or my connections or my energy in helping her get someplace. Right. Attracting that investment from other I talk about in the book how we've had career moments. For example, when I went to go leave a very stable food company and went working for an airline, and then the financial crisis hit. And the stock went down to, as I said, a price of a latte. At that point, these are soul-searching moments. If you have a growth stock mentality, you've been building professional equity, you've been learning, even though it can be scary at that point, and I was a single mother supporting my family, you take a moment and you say, you know what? I'm going to be okay.

I have the confidence to know that I haven't been sitting stagnant and I am going to be marketable. And if things go south and they didn't, but if things had gone south, I'd be able to not only rebound, but leap to another opportunity. So it is actually a fallacy to believe that there's job security anywhere. Yeah, that's something that I completely agree with, that I feel like for whatever reason, we learned that certain industries, certain places are more secure. And I've never experienced that in my career. I think it's an old premise. And I think if you shift that to say, your job security is cultivating professional equity, continuing to manage yourself and your career, you

as a growth stock, those are things that are sustainable and can be leveraged as the environments shift. Yeah, no, I think the only thing that you can really count on is that things will not play out how you think they will. I'm curious with both of your long careers, what were some things that surprised you or some hurdles that came your way that you had to overcome? I would say for both of us and for any parent, one, you know, major transition point that's difficult to make it through is becoming a parent, right? And having others who are depending on you. And no one can really prepare you for that. You know, you can watch others and certainly we recommend you do. Like watch what's going on, see who's kind of maintaining the kind of, you know, life that you want to have, how do they do it, et cetera. But we wanted to just like flat out, give women some tips because it's like, you get to this point, whether it's caring for

your own kids or caring for elderly parents, which is a reality for a lot of us, you're going to have to make some changes. And we talk a lot about this concept of your 360 life, which is recognize over time that there are many facets to your life besides work. This concept of work-life balance is an antiquated notion because nobody ever found the balance. So why don't we stop talking about it? And let's talk about how you can turn the dial across these different facets of your life so that at any point in time, the things are at the top of your priority list that need to be there. But they don't always have to be there. And so as my son got older, he didn't want me in his classroom every week, volunteering and making copies and doing stuff for the teacher. So I could have continued to

knock myself out and try to be there. And he would have been like, mom, this is awkward. So my dial turned a little bit. And that I think was a major transition point. And it's a multi-year point where we do see a lot of women drop out of the workforce because they just, they don't have the support. They don't have the options. They haven't built the equity. And they're not, I think, aware enough of, of options that they could create to get the support to move them through that kind of choke point. And that for me was really the first, you know, most difficult hurdle. Absolutely. I think that's a big reason why a lot of women are either starting families later, so they can kind of build that career, or they're just deciding not to have families. Like that's

one of the many reasons that I don't want to start a family with my husband. I mean, we like our life and that's part of it. But a lot of it is I don't know how to do that. But like I look at women who are mothers who have these amazing careers and I'm in awe because it sounds impossible. But another thing that you sort of touched on and there's a lot of data to back this up is the idea of this motherhood penalty that you get penalized depending on you, what kind of career environment in your ear, what position you're at. If you have a child, it can delay your career growth moving forward. Whereas for men, usually they actually get a career bump. Have any of you experienced that? Or what has your been your kind of thoughts on that? I think at the point I had, my kids were small. I don't think I experienced a career penalty. I think, I think what I did though, is, you know, in the generation that we had gone through,

I made a point to make sure my personal life was, was, you know, was not obvious in my business life. And so what does that mean? You know, you, so that's a, that in itself is a penalty, right? Yeah. You can't talk about a big part of your life because you don't want to be penalized. You're actually working twice as hard and you're the first one in and I was the last one out many times. I mean, I think I did that through my whole career. And that comes as a price, okay? But that was a price to be able to compete in that generation. I think today women have a lot more, and it's a good thing, a lot more flexibility and

embracing. When we talk about 360 Live, it's based on the fact that you're not just intentional of your decisions, but we believe your whole self is what brings you success in your workplace. And that means success in home and success in business. And so I think that's a different mentality versus, you know, penalties. But that's, you know, it's a real thing that has to be thought through. And then you have to have the skills to maneuver it differently. I think also with that kind of mindset of owning your career, if having a family means it might take you longer to get somewhere you want to go, then how can you get in front of that and own that so that that timeframe and what you do with that time works for you?

Right? You know, I saw a quote that said, hey, you know, remember that women's careers are a long game because most women CEOs, and there aren't many, are in their 50s and 60s. So chill out, right? You've got time. It's basically what it is. That was my experience because I was in management consulting when I had my son. And it's a seven-day-a-week career. It's a little better now, but it's an always on kind of thing because you have clients and clients don't really care about your schedule, right? That's not what they're there for. And, you know, what I did was very intentionally ask the partners

to help me create a part-time program that I could stay on for several years while my son got to the point where he didn't need round-the-clock care, which basically means they get into preschool or kindergarten. It's part of being in the driver's seat again. I actually went to them with a proposal, and nobody had gone part-time at McKinsey before. This is the dark ages, right? Yeah. And I did a lot of research, talked to a lot of women. I had friends in tech and they were doing job sharing.

I thought that was cool. And I put together something that I thought might work, which was basically a four-day-a-week plan where I was three days a week, weekend plus Mondays, and always knew that I had three days in town, that always knew I had three days to get to doctor's appointments and go to his classroom and all the rest of that. And I owned up to the fact that, yeah, it'll take me longer to get elected partner because now I'm working 80%. But that's my choice. Nobody came to me and said, hey, you know what? We're going to make it take you two more years to get elected partner because you had a baby, right? I went and said, how do I make this work for me and acknowledge that it will take me longer, but I'm going to enjoy the ride while I'm doing it. And by the way, that part-time proposal that I put together was only supposed to be for a short

while. And I ended up staying part-time for almost 10 years and had the best time balancing, you know, the things that I needed to do at home and at work. So that's our point, which is, yeah, maybe there is a penalty. How about making that work for you by getting in front of it? How about understanding, hey, wait a second, I don't have to just sit here and wait till my boss comes and tells me you're not getting promoted because you're not showing up enough. I can go to them and say, this is what I can do. And this is what I'm willing to do. How do I make that work for both the company and for me? Yeah, I think also another way to think about it is, you know, you're making your choices where it ultimately brings you satisfaction. So they're not always long term. You know,

for example, my daughter was in high school. Moving her would have been incredibly detrimental, yet I was at a point where I was highly being sought after for chief procurement roles, but they were outside of the Chicago area where I was living. I consciously made a decision not to take one out of state for three years. Okay. And that was a personal decision I made because she was important to me and I knew she needed the stability, but that didn't mean my career stalled. Okay. to Christiana's point, for one thing, I started to take on expanded roles in the company I was in, making sure that I thought through different categories of experience, different roles that I could take. But then I also got recruited for a job in Chicago and I took it. And it was one of

the best career jobs I could have asked for. It sounded crazy. I went to go work for an airline and everybody thought I was nuts leaving a big food company. But for those three years that I was there, we transformed the company, we sold it off, and it led me some very critical experiences to be able to leap to the next big job. So I think it's about not being a victim, but being empowered to think through what do you need? What does your family need? And how do you use the time and create the solutions that allow you to continue to progress your career to where you want to take it? You mentioned also to you in your book, the importance of having a mentor. And I think that's really important, especially for women, because a lot of things like salary or just how do you advance?

How do you get to the C-suite, which not a lot of women still are in that position? You need to make those kind of connections with women who have access, who are in those positions. How would one go about finding a mentor or what, as mentors yourself, I'm sure, to many people, what are some things that you want young women or women who are sort of young like myself and want to progress and get to that kind of pinnacle in their career? What are some really key things that you hope they know? Well, the first thing I would say is mentors are important, but so are sponsors. And we talk about that a lot in the book because mentors, a mentoring relationship by

definition is a coaching relationship. It is someone who's willing to give you advice and someone who's willing to listen and help you problem solve. Very important, particularly when you're getting into a new situation or a new field and you need someone who understands the lay of the land and is going to help you navigate. Sponsors, in addition to that, put skin in the game. They leverage their equity to help you. And we talked about that when we talked about growth stock, which is you attract sponsors in part because you look like the kind of person who will return the investment to someone who invests time in you. You will do well. You will follow up, et cetera. And so we want to make sure women think about building a network, not just of mentors

who give you advice for free, but sponsors who are willing to pound the table for you, who are willing to advocate for your advancement, who are willing to connect you to someone they know who has an interesting job that they think you ought to be considered for. Those are the people that are really putting, you know, themselves on the line for you and you need them. And I think what attracts me at least to someone who's a potential mentee or someone I might sponsor is that I see, first of all, they have that growth stock mentality. They're looking to continue to progress. They are conscious and aware and mindful about what they're trying to do. And then finally, they're willing to try things. Because when you're mentoring someone and you're

giving them advice and they're like, that won't work, that won't work. I tried that. That's not for me. You pretty quickly as a mentor decide that you could spend your time better elsewhere because they're just not open to trying something or doing something new or different. So I do think activating on some of the advice and taking advantage of the opportunities is important for you to continue to have someone want to invest the time to help you out. Yeah. I would also add that, you know, be prepared in your career. I know I had experiences where your sponsors, there might be a management change or an acquisition change where they retire, where they leave. And now you

have to constantly be cultivating, you know, sponsors, but you cultivate them through performance. They're there and they're sponsoring you because they're in the company and they see you're going to add future growth and future value. That's it at the end of the day. It's a business relationship. Okay. Sponsors are there not as your friends. They're there because they know that you have a talent and you're going to be able to contribute to the company. But be aware of cultivating sponsors. Just don't put all your hats in one basket because corporations are very dynamic and leadership teams change and priorities change. So you want to be able to be rooted in your performance and your potential and then be sure you're connecting to the right people for that.

And on mentors, the only thing else I would add is, you know, it's, you know, younger talent tends to say, hey, will you mentor me to a lot of people, they need to be clear about what it is they need. Mentors, I've used mentors for different purposes, and they're not always a hierarchical mentor. Sometimes it was a peer, sometimes it was a subordinate, sometimes it was a superior or somebody outside the company. You want to understand what knowledge an individual has that you feel will help grow you and cultivate you. Those are the best ones because now you're actually not just ideating about what's happening

in your workplace. You're really thinking about transferring knowledge. So look for the mentor that has a skill set that you need to grow in and be selective on that. Yeah. And I think that another kind of important point for that is you don't want to feel like you're wasting the mentor's time or your time. You want to be very strategic in that, right? Yeah. Well, it's why it's hard when someone asks us out of the blue after we speak at an event or something like that, will you mentor me? At the basis of mentorship, effective mentorship and sponsorship is definitely personal connection, chemistry, and some shared history. So the best mentors or sponsors are

people you've worked with or who at least work in or have worked in similar environments because it's otherwise just a really cold start to try to help somebody out from that. Yeah. Yeah. No, absolutely. You must be for quest too, right? Because people hear you and you know, and what you don't know them from anywhere. And that's not the place to look for a mentor. Our, our advice. Absolutely. The people that I have, you know, mentored, sponsored, whether it's like, you know, just here and there or kind of a long term, there's a lot of people out there. That's been more of a long term thing. It really has been kind of more of a natural relationship that we build over time. And I'm happy and it doesn't feel like an obligation.

It feels like I'm happy to do it. But it is those cold DMs or emails asking for a lot. And I'm like, I just met you. Wow, that's really ballsy. It's like asking someone you just met on the street for a date. Yeah, like, let's just, you know, calm down here. Because yeah, you don't want to feel like on the mentee side, you want to make sure that you're valuing their time, their experience. And on the mentor side, you want to feel the same, that they respect and value your time as well. Because even when people ask me for a cup of coffee, now I'm like, no, because you know how long it takes me to get downtown for a cup of coffee? I can do something a little bit more virtual. That seems a little bit better. Definitely. And I think that's probably why a lot of us are writing books, because at least it gives

us a chance to put it all down in one place and to say, look, it's not feasible to mentor or to sponsor and support everybody. But if you've got more than an hour and you can read this this is literally what we know and this is what we would tell you or our own kids if you asked us for advice absolutely now the one last thing that i want to touch on of course is that the big thing that i think is a big hurdle for many women is the money situation the the negotiation. And it's, you know, sometimes we do get the titles or, you know, get to that kind of top spot, and then you find out you're making 50% less than your male counterparts. I know a lot of this, again, has to do with bias in the workplace and all these things that are bigger than one individual can kind of tackle. But,

you know, again, with your experience and your long careers, what are some things that were helpful in you making sure that you did get paid your worth or even understanding what that meant and having those secret conversations with people so you made sure that you did ask for enough? I think there's there are several things to consider, which we talk about in the book. One is know your worth. Okay. So what does that mean? Do the research, understand there are a lot of avenues to be able to find out what like jobs to yours are valued at. And that's good information. The other thing, and I'll speak to one and then let Christiana jump in here. The other thing I found helpful is I paid attention to job scope and not every day. Okay.

But as you're, if you're a high performer and you have high capacity, you will likely find that you are doing a wider scope of work than potentially your job originally started out or that your grade level has been doing. So being factual and unemotional about that and being able to document, Hey, my job was X a year ago, and now I'm doing Y, Z, and B, and being able to talk about a request to have your job re-evaluated is a smart business move. It also makes you understand that you're feeling like you're representing yourself to be compensated fairly. So when those things happen, you're paying attention, you're doing a great job at it, so they're feeling the value. You may even be reminding people of the contribution you've been able to

bring, but you're also talking about the fact that, you know, it's a time to review. And I have found that that's a pretty effective way of making sure you're compensated as your career grows, especially in a role or in a company for a longer period of time. Well, we, yeah, we have a quote that we include from Bozema St. John. You've probably heard of her. She's amazing CMO. You know, her quote is give them a number and make it big. And the reason she says that is because kind of in classic negotiation theory, if you start with your floor, you're going to end up in the basement. If you start with your ceiling, you're going to end up somewhere in between in that range. Practically, we fully recognize that it can be hard for women to do that. And we hear the stories of women who asked for a raise and got the job pulled out from

under them or whatever. So what's that mean? It means start early. Don't wait until you're 50% undercompensated, right? Think about every year getting the fact base that Grace is talking about and making sure you stay current with what your scope of responsibility is, what others around you are getting paid, because to your point, you can have those conversations. You can also go to anonymous sites, Glassdoor, so many others, and find out. And make you know, what's out there in terms of maybe recruiters giving you a call or having a few interesting conversations. The more you're informed, the more you're making a conscious choice. The second thing we always say is read the

room. There are times to ask for more money. There are times not to ask for more money. You got to learn that over time and you'll make some mistakes, right? When your company is going through a restructuring, you're probably not going to get it. When there's been a massive layoff, that might not be good. It might be because you're being retained and you're one of the important ones they wanted to keep. You need to learn to read the nuance of the employer and the environment around you to know. But in general, at least annually, stay current with what you're worth. Then make the conscious decision about when you're going to ask for that increase. And the last thing I'll note is both Grace and I were comparing notes and realized it is striking how often the men who reported to us when we did their annual review and told them their comp would ask for more and how rarely the women did.

So even if we're afraid as women that we might get, you know, smacked back for asking for more, it's important to remind ourselves that in general, we don't ask often enough. And how does that translate into real dollars? We did some research in here and it says, gee, over the life of the career, if you start out early being behind the eight ball on not being compensated fairly, you never catch up. Very difficult. You never catch up. And so there's the law of compounding, as you know, the gap becomes too significant. And that's why we say start early. One of the studies said it can be up to half a million dollars over the lifetime of your career.

So, you know, it's not an entitlement. It's a awareness of what you're doing and how you're contributing and assuming that you're contributing well to the company, making sure you're compensated fairly and, you know, and doing the homework and having a practical business conversation on it. And I don't just add to this is why it's so important to have your financial house in order, have that emergency fund, that buffer money, because you may be in a position where you mentioned it is a reality for many women. They ask for more. They don't get it or the offer for the job is rescinded. You need to have options. Money gives you options. That cushion gives you options to leave or to continue the job search. I couldn't resonate with me more when we talked about it. I mean, from a very early age,

both Christiana and I realized that we live below our means to make sure that we built the NASDAQ, okay? And it allowed us to take some of these big career moves, some of these riskier job changes, because we knew we had our financial house in order and optionality is critical. And it allows you to, you know, to move into some of these opportunities more easily. And not take, yeah, not take what's given to you. I mean, I look back at my career, and like you mentioned, there's data that shows if you don't start off earning a pretty good income, it's harder to catch up. And yeah, throughout my whole 20s, I really didn't earn as much as I know I should have. And it did take me a long time. And now it's fine because I pivoted,

switched careers, and I own my own business. But it's one of those things I look back on. I'm like, I wish I did things different. I wish I had the knowledge. I just didn't have the knowledge or experience. But hopefully, you know, now that, you know. We all know asking for smaller increases early is a lot easier, right? If you're saying to somebody, hey, it's, you know, $1,000 a month or it's whatever, and you bring the facts to back it up,

then that's a much easier ask. I mean, for a manager or a boss to look at and go, yeah, you're, you're showing me the data. And we can say this because Grace and I both sit on corporate boards now and the compensation committees pay third parties to go get them this information or their senior executives, but nobody's paying third parties as often to go do it for earlier roles in your career. as often to go do it for earlier roles in your career. You need to go do that for yourself. And we all know that it is more expensive to hire someone new and train them than to, if there's a good worker, to just give them more compensation. So you've got a lot of things to kind of bring to the table with your presentation

on why you should earn more. Well, I know we can probably talk about so many things, but I'm so glad you wrote your book. I'm sure there's so many great nuggets of wisdom in there that people need to check out. Where can people find a copy of your book and where can people find you online? Grace and Christiana, where can people maybe hit the follow button? Great. So first of all, if you want more information on the book, careerforwardbook.com is the website. Also, it's available absolutely every place you buy books, as you would expect and hope. And we've got links in there as well to tell people when we're speaking at different events and where can they come hear us in person. So careerforwardbook.com is always a good place to start. And then you can find us on social media, for instance, on threads,

not a big fan of X, but I'm on threads at CC zero one. And on LinkedIn, of course, Christiana Smith. She amazing. And Grace, where can you find, are you on threads? Where can we find you? We've got one shared site. If you want. Well, I'll make sure to follow you i've actually been yeah i honestly have not checked twitter in a while since its demise but i am a big fan of threads there's some great conversations so i look forward to seeing what you're chatting about i think a lot of women have have moved over there and so it's yeah there's a

lot yeah it's just it seems like a safer space. And that's important. I'm support. I'm very supportive of that. And I'm a big fan of LinkedIn because honestly, if you're talking about work and careers and jobs, if it's not happening on LinkedIn, it's probably not happening. It really is the place. I agree. I agree. Well, thank you so much, Grace and Christiana for being on the podcast. It was a pleasure to have you both. And I aspire to take some of your advice and see where it takes me. So thank you so much for taking time. You enjoyed it. Thank you so much, Jessica. And that was episode 389 of the More Money Podcast with Grace Puma and Christiana Smith. You can find more information about this episode, literally. You can find everything in the show

notes. And the show notes are so nice these days. They're fluffy. There's a lot of great stuff in there. If you go to jessicamorehouse.com slash 389, that is where you can find a link to purchase their book, Career Forward Strategies from Women Who've Made It. You can also watch the full interview if you want to watch. Why not? Rewatch it? You loved it so much. Watch it. You know, watch it. Listen to it again. Do whatever you want. And then some links to things that we touched on. And I mean, if you want to check out the transcript of this episode, it's there too. I've got it all in the show notes. JessicaMorehouse.com slash 389. If you're looking for show notes for any past episode, a couple of different ways you can go about it. Just go to JessicaMorehouse.com slash podcast to find all of the different episodes by season or if you know the episode number jessicamorehouse.com

slash whatever that number of that episode is or if you don't know where the episode is but you heard it and it was about some topic but you can't remember you email me like honestly i got dms on instagram i get emails jessica at jessicamcom. You can ask me, hey, what was that episode again? I will know it because I remember every single episode I've ever done. And I will tell you and I will direct you. So there you go. I am also giving away a copy of their book, Career Forward, and you can find all the details on how to enter to win at JessicaMorehouse.com slash contest. And I will be updating it as I have more authors on the show. And speaking of, let me just open up my little computer here and see who do we have on the show next. Ooh, it's another good episode. Next week, I've got Benjamin Quetereau. He is the Associate Dean for

Undergrad Programs at McGill University. But more importantly, and why he's coming on the show is he is the academic director of the McGill Personal Finance Essentials free online course, which started in November 2019. So it's been around actually for quite a while, and it's attracted over 200,000 participants, one of them being myself. And so we're going to talk all about what are some of these personal finance essentials that Canadians need to know and also what is in this course and should you check it out? I mean, yeah, it's free, obviously you should. So that is what's happening next week. So yeah, that's really it for me. Thank you so much for listening. And a big thank you to my podcast team, Video Edit by Justice Carrar and produced by MRAVCanada.com. And with that, thank you so much again,

and I'll see you back here next Wednesday. This podcast is distributed by the Women in Media Podcast Network. Find out more at womeninmedia.network.