More Money Podcast - 417 Breaking Free from Toxic Money Behaviours - Author of Money on Your Mind, Vicky Reynal

Episode Date: December 18, 2024

What's the driving force behind your money habits? Where did you learn your beliefs and values about money? What are some of the psychological hurdles you've encountered most of your life, preventing you from reaching your full financial potential? I discuss these questions and more with financial psychotherapist Vicky Reynal, author of Money on Your Mind: The Unconscious Beliefs That Sabotage Your Financial Well-Being and How to Break Free. In her book, she shares client stories, case studies, and her professional expertise on how to overcome those psychological barriers, find their root causes, and develop a path forward to achieve a brighter financial future. Follow me: Instagram @jessicaimoorhouse Threads @jessicaimoorhouse TikTok @jessicaimoorhouse Facebook @jessicaimoorhouse YouTube @jessicamoorhouse LinkedIn - Jessica Moorhouse For full episode show notes and transcript visit https://jessicamoorhouse.com/417 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello, hello, hello, and welcome back to the More Mini Podcast. For this episode, I've got a guest coming in from the UK, who I'm very excited to have on the show, especially since I was actually able to read her book in the spring, well before it became available in North America. And that's because I was asked to give a blurb for the back of her book, which I was more than happy to do, quite honestly, because her book is so up my alley, it's not even funny. And you'll understand why once you read my book. It's very much in the same theme, which I love. Psychology, money. Those are my two favorite things. So who I've got on the show is Vicki Raynall. She is a psychotherapist in London, but helps clients globally. She's also a financial psychotherapist in London, but helps clients globally.

She's also a financial psychotherapist, applying psychodynamic psychotherapy principles when working with clients with a complex relationship with money. And she is on the podcast today to talk about her award-winning book, Money on Your Mind, The Psychology Behind Your Financial Habits, which will be available for you if you're in Canada or the U.S. on January 7th. And I'll also be giving away a copy of this book. I'm also giving away copies of all the books that have been featured on this season of the show. So listen to the end of this episode to learn how you can enter to win a copy. So a little about Vicky. She completed her psychology degree in the US actually at the University of Pennsylvania. Then she got her MBA at the London Business School and she wasn't done

then. She got two other master level and postgraduate degrees in Europe. Needless to say, she knows what she's talking about. And in her practice now, she helps clients with issues that range from succession planning to debt, excessive greed, generosity, spending, money secrets, financial conflict, as well as helps them decode the emotions that sit behind their money-related difficulties in order to enable understanding and change. So she goes deep with her clients, which I think is really, really important. And I'm thrilled to have Vicki on the show to really explore some of the things that she discusses in her book and some of the, you know, examples she has from real life clients that I think you'll be, you know, very much able to

identify with. I certainly did for a couple of those examples. So you're gonna love this episode. So without further ado, let's get to that interview with Vicki. Welcome, Vicki, to the More Money Podcast. So excited to have you on, especially from the UK. I love having guests from overseas. But you know, what I always love to kind of discover is, you know, we all we all have very similar life experiences. And your book, I mean, I gave you a blurb for the book. So I kind of got a little peek into what your book was months and months ago, which was lovely. So I'm so excited to have you on the show to discuss it. Your book is called money on your mind, the psychology behind your financial habits. And it really is very like, oh, this is, you know, very much in line with the book that I

have coming out. So like, it's like, we lived in different countries, didn't know each other, but we were, you know, we realized this is something that has to be discussed. And there really aren't any books out there that go in depth. Now, you're obviously coming from a position of you are a psychologist, and you've worked with clients for years and years and years. And so I thought it was such an interesting read where you were able to bring in these client stories and case studies and stuff like that. So we've got, I'm very excited to talk to you. That's just all I'm going to say. But before we really dive into some of the things that you explore in your

book, Money on Your Mind, do you want to tell me a little bit because i know you're a psychologist but then you kind of got into financial psychology which is i think a bit of a new field um do you want to kind of share your journey like what what led you to this world of finance married with psychology thank you jessica i'm very happy to be here and i can't wait to read your book. Because I think there, you know, there's not enough minds thinking about this topic. And that's, that's what drove me to this, really, I did a psychology degree in the States, actually. And then in the UK, I did an MBA, so a master in business. And then I did a psychotherapy degree. So basically between two psychology psychotherapy degrees there was a business degree and even though in the business degree they do

talk a bit about the psychology of money but more from the angle of you know the cognitive biases that we can all fall trap to so more about kind of as humans what type of mistakes can we make when it comes to money? In the psychology degree, and in psychology, we focus very much on the individual, the individual experience, our past history, how does that shape who we become? The money focus wasn't really there. And, you know, money is an object that we all have a relationship with. It's part of living a life. And as therapists, we have all the right tools to help people think about the meaning of money and how we might use it or misuse it to act out emotional issues. And, you know, we've talked so much as therapists about how we might misuse food. For example, you know, we eat emotionally and you know what's behind

withholding food or eating too much of it you know and often there's feelings drive driving that behavior why aren't we thinking about that with regards to money where you know I can tell you I see a lot of people who who make choices from an emotional place when it comes to it and I'm sure we can all find ourselves somewhere in that book and say, oh, yeah, maybe that was my envy or my anger or my loneliness that drove me to do that. So I started researching it a bit and writing about it and slowly advertising myself as a psychotherapist that can talk about money issues and people started coming and what I found most rewarding was to see emails from clients saying I never thought that I could talk about this in therapy you know I'm so glad I found you can can I come for a session and so

there was clearly an appetite for it. And so yeah, it all started kind of snowballing from there. And that came the idea for the book. Yeah, I mean, yeah, like you said, there's when it comes to finance, and you're like, Oh, I need help. Really, you're kind of pushed to well, you should find a financial planner. And you're like, yeah, but they're, they're not equipped to deal with the emotional, the behavioral kind of side of things. They're going to tell you the practical, how to let's make a plan, but they will not be able to dive in as deep, you know, working with a therapist or a psychologist, um, like that. And I think that's, that's kind of the part of the inspiration for my book is there, you know, there's a lot, um, when I have conversations with people and they talk

about their struggles with money, the big thing is usually the struggle doesn't stem from just money being the issue, right? That's kind of a symptom, right? Just like you mentioned with food, I'm like, can completely relate. I've been in super emotional times and what about, I usually go to something, you know, alcohol or food to, to, you know, uh, try to fix it or, or it's just a place where it's like, I can kind of, you know, just explode all my emotions onto it. Right. Self-soothe, self-soothe. Uh, oh my God, let me try that again. Self-soothe. Okay. Let's edit that part out self-soothe absolutely um so you know i think it's such an important and i i personally believe that we are going to see a lot more people like you in this space because it is um a topic that's becoming becoming more talked about openly and

there really aren't too many resources or too many people that can help in that respect we don't you know although you know financial planners are super important. We need someone to talk to about money, you know, on the emotional and behavioral level. And you're right. You see, a lot of people might come to me having already gone to a financial planner and advisor because they know what they should be doing with money, but they feel stuck in a cycle of unhealthy money behavior that they can't get out of. And the reason why they can't get out of it is because there's some feelings

that haven't been named and understood, driving that whatever it is overspending or self sabotage or the inability to enjoy money. And so until you understand those feelings, then it's going to be very difficult to implement a plan because you're not being rational when you're acting. Exactly. And I know, you know, you have a whole chapter on overspending. I feel like that's typically like one, like that's when you think of, oh, I have money issues, you're just like, oh, you're spending more than you're earning, you're getting into debt. And the kind of traditional advice was, okay, well, let's make a debt repayment plan. Let's get you budgeting. Let's do all of these things.

But then I was seeing over the years as well, people would just get back into old habits. And you're like, why is it just you don't have the self-motivation? You're just bad with money? Of course not. There's always something going on underneath that you just haven't addressed yet. That's why you keep on going back to that. And there's a time two years ago, more when I was a blogger, and there was a lot of debt blogs at the time. And a lot of people had these kind of splashy things. Hey, I was able to pay off $50,000 in debt in two years, things like that. And sometimes you would

find out those people would get back into debt. And largely it was because, well, it's like you never really addressed why you got into debt in the first place. And so, of course, you're going to maybe get back into old patterns. And, you know, now you're starting the cycle again, right? That's right. And it's, you know, for some people, it can be a lifelong journey of trying to manage a part of themselves that tends to be impulsive or tends to self-soothe through spending or whatever it is. But the moment you become conscious of why you do it, then you stand a better chance of catching yourself next time they're about to tap for another purchase. And so at least you feel a bit more in control of the choice that you make because you know where it's coming from. Let's talk about some of those things when you've been working with clients and you know, let's kind of focus on overspending

first. Where do you kind of see the patterns or okay, people that tend to get into a cycle of overspending typically there these are some of the things that you know may cause it what are some of the the yeah under the hood kind of reasons why someone may end up in a place where they are overspending but they can't stop and they don't know how to stop i think what's been interesting is to see the breadth of reasons that might be behind overspending. So I can generalize and say that a lot of people might overspend because they, for example, they're addressing feelings of loneliness or boredom. And now, you know, with a shop being available on our phone 24 hours a day, it's very tempting. You know, we're sitting there feeling bored to just scroll and purchase things. Or, you know, when we're feeling lonely on a Sunday afternoon and we don't want to address the loneliness.

And maybe it's hard to reach out to somebody, to a friend or whoever, because we're not feeling very in the mood for it or we're afraid of rejection. You know, it's easier to go and get something nice for ourselves. You know, the good old retail therapy. But I think what's interesting is when you ask yourself the questions to try and unpack what is behind my overspending,

to not quickly jump to conclusions. So it's because I'm bored or this or that, but to really try and, first of all, kind of tune into what was I feeling, you know, the moment that I overspent? Where was I? What was I doing? You know, some people tend to overspend socially. So when they're out with people, because they're trying to impress, or they're trying to be liked, and so they're kind of spending on others. Other people might only spend, I don't know, with their children, maybe because they're trying to compensate for not being there enough for them. And there's all sorts, I've seen, you know, one of the cases in the book is a woman who spent on kind of expensive designer bags because she had an early trauma of abandonment. And actually, her fear of abandonment drove her

to buy things that represent, you know, something that stays, you know, luxury bags are for the long term, and you know, they're an investment and and the things don't leave you they don't leave you like people might leave you and so kind of unconsciously there was this um this longing to have something that she could consider hers and hold on to and that's what was driving her overspending so you can see it can be quite kind of unusual and deep-rooted reasons that, you know, have nothing to do with how we're feeling in the here and now, but might be rooted in childhood experiences? Does it usually go back to when you're a child, something happened, and it manifests in a way that you may not recognize until adulthood? I think often that's the case. Not always. But you see, when we grow up, our interaction with our parents really shapes how we feel about ourselves and what we expect from the world around us. And so if you grew up, maybe you were a bit neglected

because your parents were busy or they had whatever, maybe their own mental health issues, whatever it is, you might grow up to become an adult who doesn't feel very deserving of good things. And if you have kind of a low sense of worth, then you might maybe overspend because you're trying to dress yourself up to be liked and to fit in, not because you're lacking those things internally. So I think that's one example. in life when you're in high school for example I've seen people who had difficult high school experiences of either feeling bullied or excluded and that left in them a kind of emotional imprint of as an adult going through life seeking fitting in and inclusion and so they might manifest that

through you know buying a lot of clothes just that they always have the right outfit to fit into a certain group of friends or to fit into with their work colleagues. And so you see that that would have come from experiences as adolescents. And so it varies, I think, but in some cases, it does come from quite early experiences. I'm curious when you're working with a client, and this is kind of a bigger question, but how do you start even having those conversations to find that root cause? You know, is it just like, okay, we need to, we need to start from the beginning and kind of see what were the events that occurred to kind of link things? I started from the here and now and, and ask questions around it. for example you know they might say

you know I think I tend to spend because it gives me a better chance of fitting with a group of friends and then I might ask well why do you think that's so important and quickly they are bringing up experiences that are you know in the past the past about, well, you know, I do remember, or sometimes you might ask, you know, how old do you feel when you feel that way right before you spend? And that brings us to the memories. So there's different ways around it, but I don't kind of, I rarely do a whole kind of, let's start from the beginning of life it would be kind of irrelevant sometimes if the problem is very much in the in the here and now i had one client to give an example who was overspending and asking a series of questions around why they were doing it it emerged that any time they've run out of money in kind of the second week of the month,

they would call their mother to ask for more. And so I asked, well, what's your relationship with your mother? Well, actually, since my parents divorced, I don't speak to her anymore. The only calls we have are when I ask for money. And so kind of that kind of self-sabotage that was going on through the overspending was all about well I don't know how to have a relationship with my mother now and this is a good excuse to get to speak to her and so we needed to address that before they could stop overspending you know because of the fear of losing the little relationship they had. That's interesting. I mean, and I think too, again, why this is so important to have professionals like you to ask those questions is often no one has ever asked us those questions. So how

would be able to do that work and really uncover these really important things? No one's asking us those questions of, well, you know, how do you feel about money? What is your relationship with money? Where do you think things started? Those questions just don't exist. So I think it's just so important. Now, I know we've talked a lot about overspending. Another issue that I also see, which is, I feel like gets a little less attention because maybe it's hard for some people to understand is underspending. And maybe it's also because it's behind closed doors. Like no one will know really that you're underspending. And maybe it's also because it's behind closed doors. Like, no one will know really that you're underspending. You can be hoarding your, you know, really living frugally and it's difficult for people maybe to detect outwardly. That's definitely more of a

problem that I can absolutely relate to compared to overspending. And I've done a lot of therapy, especially research for my own book. So I think I figured out where it steps from. But for people that are maybe struggling with how do I not feel guilty about spending money that I have that I worked so hard to save? That's a big thing I hear, or especially people who have been living in a situation where maybe they came from poverty or there was a lot of scarcity. And now they're in a much better financial place, but they don't know how to kind of get to that next level, you know, be a little bit more free with their money, not guilty. There's no shame. Well, I'm curious, you know, when working with clients with that issue, what are some of the things that you've seen that, that, where does that come from? Does it

typically come from, they came from a place of poverty, scarcity, and it's hard to get out? Or sometimes maybe it's the complete opposite. I don't know. I think, again, it's a mixture of reasons. The scarcity one is a common one. You know, it's very hard when you've absorbed the fears that your parents had around money, about not having enough you've internalized those fears and even if you know 20 30 years later you've and you've ensured that you're in a very different financial situations you're still acting with a mindset from the past and that's difficult to break and there's a lot of work around well can you see that all the steps you've taken have secured that you don't run those risks anymore? And so you might start experimenting with allowing yourself to enjoy a bit of kind of ring-fenced money that you can enjoy freely.

So I think that's one common cause. But sometimes it is that sense of not feeling deserving of the good things that money can buy. And so we put it away, which gives us a certain sense of pride. Because, you see, for some people who don't feel deserving, what I often see going with it, there's a sense of kind of pride and deprivation. So kind of thriving without being too needy and without kind of giving in to your needs is something to be proud of. And I have to say there are teachings in religion and I think culturally to be thrifty is not seen as a bad thing. And so I think it can start with a relatively healthy way of being financially, but I think it's about have you taken it to an extreme in which it almost feel like you're withholding so much you're denying yourself so much that it

feels almost like you're punishing yourself for something and that's when we need to start digging into you know what is this guilt that you carry is Is it kind of a lack in how deserving you feel? Is it a guilt? Because, you know, one example in the book is of somebody who grew up, you know, with parents that always made her feel like she was too needy. And so, you know, to thrive over her need and kind of show to the world how she didn't need anyone, you know, she didn't have to rely on anyone. This kind of desire was expressed through money. And some people do it through food. And that's why I call it financial anorexia.

And if you look at the research, there's actually a lot of overlaps between people who are anorexic with food and with money. And it's just another object that they use to express the same thing, kind of a desire to control of trends within personal finance that sometimes encourage people to deprive, such as, you know, I've seen this in the fire, the financial independents retire early because a lot of people deprive themselves for a long period of time to reach that goal of retiring early by 30, 40 or whatever, or even minimalism, depending on how extreme you go, where it's like, no, I only have one fork and one spoon, and that's all I need. And we see these as like, wow, look at these amazing people doing these really difficult things. Bravo. But you're like, well, you know, everything within reason. And I think it is easy to kind of fall into these sectors where there's an instant connection

because of something that's already going on within you and you're like oh they understand me but it can be easy to go the extreme route and it's it's difficult to maybe get out when again now you're in a community of people think that think there's no problem it's great to live like that depriving yourself have you i don't know if you've encountered anyone like that but well yes and I think when we think about it financially again because there's this idea in society that it's a good thing to be so controlled when it comes to it sometimes it's helpful to think about it and in other terms if you think of exercise right it's great to exercise and it's yeah it's good for your health. But I have seen clients who sometimes tip over into something that stops feeling like a healthy exercise routine and starts feeling like, you know,

a masochistic act, if anything, right? Almost they're punishing themselves, they're taking it too far. and we can do the exact same thing with money you know I have heard people say oh I'm going to go on a no spending week which is fine let's try it let's see what you learn from it when they take it to a no spending year I say well let's think about this, you know, what's going on here? You know, where is this coming from? Is it coming from a kind of a rational place in which you decided that, yes, I'm going to be putting money aside, this is the year to do it. And, you know, I'm not going to take it too far. These are my boundaries around it. Or is it coming from

guilt, from shame, from, you know, I've been so terrible with money. Now I have to pay the price. And this is me kind of, you know, surviving on toast and beans. Well, in the UK, at least. We don't know. I love toast and beans. But yeah, I get what you mean. I think boundaries was like the really important word,

because when I see people in those extremes, it's because they lack boundaries, they lack, but up until this point, if you don't have a, you know, okay, only up until this point, then, yeah, you can enter a dangerous zone where it's hard to reel yourself back. Yeah. And I think what you just said brings up the issue of people kind of swing between overspending and then really depriving and they can never regulate and find a healthy middle. And you know, that's one way to address the problem, you overspend, and then you really withhold, but it's not the best way to do it. Because clearly, you're always unsettled in some way.

And you're either living with a guilt of spending or with a frustration of self-denying. And so you can't have good financial well-being. You're not feeling in control and happy about your money choices. You're always trying to correct for something. And do you feel like, you know, especially when people are in a situation where they, I'm not happy with my overspending or underspending, and then they do research online, they find there's lots of online communities and influencers now. And often what I see is all you're going to find is extremes. Like there's the people in the middle for sure that are really talking more about balance. But, you know, for them overspending, there's as many

people as you want that are talking about how great it is just to YOLO and spend your money, you only live once. And then the other people like, no, you don't want to do that. You want to live, you know, really frugally and undo all of the bad things that you did. And it's like you're, you can't find, you can't win, point, which is about social media and what we see out there, which tends to, you know, gravitate around the extremes. Nobody goes on social media to say, I stayed within my budget this month. Yeah, boring. Exactly. But I think the best thing to do is to tune into your feelings about your finances rather than kind of compare yourself to everybody else. Because a lot of times there's clues in how you feel. So if you end up feeling, you know, guilty or resentful because once again, you've gone over your budget. Well, that tells you something, you know, and you can tap into that and say, well, what do I want to do differently?

Why did I, you know, you can ask yourself the right questions. I think comparing yourself to other people can only lead down a very negative rabbit hole. And yeah, that's just like, I feel like, you know, we've always had comparing yourself to your neighbors, your friends, family has always existed. But it's just to another level, the past 10-15 years with social media, where every day we're comparing ourselves to someone else, but someone else, we have no idea who they actually are, what their real life is. And they live in a totally different country. it's just yeah and I use this comparison sometimes but you know when we were growing up there was a popular girl in school

that everybody kind of admired but even she had a bad hair day once in a while whereas now everything we see is just so curated and selected and perfect that it makes it impossible to compete with these kind of idealized versions of people that sometimes are completely fictitious. Yeah, most of the time, yeah, completely made up. I know, you know, we kind of touched on how balance or like that, that middle ground is what we're ultimately, no matter what your situation is, what your struggle is, that's what we're all trying to seek. And sometimes it feels like it's so difficult to find. Now, one thing that I've definitely been, you know, exploring over the past couple years is the idea of enoughness. I know you have a whole, you know, part of your book that talks about what that means. And I think that's

such an important thing that no one talks about is what's enough. What's, what does make you happy? What is, you know, we often just think about more or less and not just enough, the middle ground. So if someone wants to, to find their kind of happy place, where do you even start with that? Especially when maybe you're used to extremes on both sides. People that come to me for all sorts of different reasons, you know, they don't just come for financial therapy, they come for therapies because they're trying to find

happiness in life. And I'll tell you one place where people don't find it, it's money. But the thing is that we've attached as a society, we've attached this promise to money that it will buy us happiness, that it will make us happy. And so many people are stuck on that treadmill trying to make more and more.

And then I see them either at the stage of kind of starting to question, is this really going to get me what I want? Because I'm not seeing my family enough, I'm not happy at the end of the day, and the more money I make, I'm not feeling a difference. Or they come having become extremely wealthy, having, you know, more money than we can imagine, and finding out that actually it didn't deliver on its promise. And now what? And you see research they have done at Harvard did a wonderful longitudinal study on happiness. And it found that the number one driver of happiness in life

is having a relationship in which you feel connected to the other, in which you feel you can rely on the other. And it's not the only factor, you feel connected to the other, in which you feel you can rely on the other. And, you know, it's not the only factor, but it was, you know, the biggest predictor, not just of happiness, but even of longevity, of life expectancy, more than medical kind of metrics. But, you know, things like a sense of belonging, good relationships, you know, things like a sense of belonging, good relationships. You know, when people look back in their lives, they don't regret having not worked hard enough or not made enough money. They regret not having spent time with the people they care about. And so when I see people in the therapy room struggling with their greed, their kind of insatiable desire for more.

The question I ask is, you know, they say, I don't think it's enough. I say, well, enough for what? And that's when we start unpacking, well, enough for, you know, feeling taken seriously in my family. Aha. So that's what you're hoping money will get you, recognition, and you're hoping people will value you for being wealthy. They've attached kind of self-worth to financial worth, and that's the equation that is driving the accumulation of wealth. Or enough to feel secure. Well, you know, you have millions in your account. Why are you not feeling secure? Let's think about that.

What kind of security are we talking about? And sometimes you get to kind of a feeling loved or lovable. You know, the struggle is there. And so I think the biggest question we can ask ourselves if we are struggling with greed is what are we hoping really that money will get us? And are we looking for that in the right place? Yeah.

I mean, I think even just asking yourself that question of enough for what, I think most of us probably were like, oh, I actually never asked myself that. That's a really important question that can easily open the door to find out for what, oh, all these things that have nothing to do with money. But like you said, this is, you know, I mean, people have been talking about money and happiness forever. And I think that's why a lot of people actually discover kind of the world of personal finance and content and stuff like that is they think money will be the solution. And it is at a certain point to get your basic needs and all that kind of stuff. Absolutely. But then sometimes then it's like, okay, now it's not a money issue

anymore. It's it's, there's another issue that we need to address money is not going to solve that. But that just seems like no matter where you look at the message is no, no, no money is the solution. Money is always going to be the solution. Yeah, so and sometimes families carry that particularly when there isn't a lot of it around. And there's a lot of conflict around money in the family. There's this idea that, you know, if I have enough money in my family, there won't be conflict. Well, actually, you know, maybe the conflict on the surface was about money. But that's, that was just the language that was used to express deeper relationship difficulties that had nothing to do with money.

Yeah, no, it's I mean, that's absolutely something I've discovered about myself. Money was driving me in a way that I didn't recognize that it was, and it'd been driving me for years and years and years. And I think that's, you know, that happens for a lot of us. Money is pushing us in a certain situation or a certain direction that unless we recognize that we're going to keep going and we're probably not going to, we're going to look back or like, I don't know why I'm here. I don't know what I'm doing, you know, and I'm not happy.

And like you said, one of the things that I, you know, also did research on, but also just did an internal kind of introspection was I was, yeah, thought money would be the solution, but actually it was relationships that I was neglecting. And once I put the focus back on relationships, developing new ones, nurturing ones already had, so much happier. And guess what? It's free. Or almost free. It's something that's so, so important. And I know that's another thing you discuss in your book is the idea of generosity, which to me really is about putting the focus on something or someone or a group outside of you. And again, in North America, especially, and it may be similar in the UK, we have a very individualistic perspective on things. It's always about me or my

direct family, and I'm protecting my family and all that stuff. We rarely think about, well, what about your neighbors, your greater community, and all these kinds of things. That's usually second, third, fourth down the line. But again, there's also research to show how so much happiness can come out of being generous and giving back and feeling like a member, belonging to a community. Do you want to kind of discuss why that was such an important thing that you want to put in the book? Because I've talked about it on the podcast over the years, it just, it really often gets neglected when we're having conversations about finances,

generosity and giving back and being charitable. I completely agree with you that it's something that's supposed to make us feel so good. And often it does, it makes us feel good and it makes the recipient feel good as well but what was interesting to to hear in in the therapy room and in all the kind of the different examples that i explore are all the different negative places that generosity could be coming from so we're not always expressing a positive feeling you see yeah the right kind kind of generosity is one that leaves everyone feeling good but sometimes you know what happens when you receive a gift that leaves you feeling completely unseen and not understood you know what happens when you're given let's's say, a very generous envelope with money from a family member, but it comes with all sorts of strings attached. You know, when a family,

let's say, when parents pay for a holiday for their adult children, and the fact that they've paid means that now they're expecting everyone to follow their schedule and come to all the dinners and so I think there's very different ways in which we can be generous and so sometimes it comes from you know wanting to control or maybe we're expressing something about I don't know feeling neglected by our friend and so we give them a pretty terrible gift that makes them feel unseen and and you know we might not be doing it consciously, but we're kind of expressing something. But other times it comes from kind of negative feelings about ourselves. So I've seen a lot of people who kind of try to compensate from their inner sense of lack through presence. So they become overly

generous, you know, they show up to dinner, bringing two bottles of wine instead of one or even nothing, because they feel that, you know, just to them would be disappointing or not good enough. They're kind of complimenting through being overly generous. And, you know, and sometimes there's a part of us that knows that, you know, I overdo it sometimes with my tipping, for example, you know, why do I always give more than it's expected? And, and another part that can't help it. And so when you try to kind of open up a dialogue with that part of you, then you might find that, you know, there's a part of you that wants to please people because, you know, you might have grown up in a family in which there was very kind of frightening conflict.

And so you grew up to be the person that always tries to, you know, appease people and please them. And so, you know, to prevent any negative interaction, you end up even, you know, tipping twice as much as is expected of you. And so it can come from so many different places. And I think that's what I was trying to do with the generosity chapter was kind of invite everyone, you know, next time you buy a Christmas gift or birthday gift, whatever it is, or next time you tip, a Christmas gift a birthday gift whatever it is or next time you tip ask yourself is this coming from the right place you know I have I is this me expressing my love for this person or you know good feeling and how will it be received

you know have I am I giving it in a way that will make the other person feel comfortable and happy or have I just given them at present three times more expensive than what they can give me and so they'll feel uncomfortable and this is all about showing my power over them rather than you see so it can it can come from different sources yeah I mean too, when this episode airs, we're entering the holiday season. So I think this is a great time for you to ask those questions to yourself. Why am I buying these gifts? Is this, you know, am I going a bit beyond what I should and what, what are the real intentions that I have? And I think sometimes we don't think about, um, especially with gift giving, do you, are you really thinking about the recipient?

Are you thinking about, oh, I can't wait for them to open up and for me to see their reactions? You got to think about that. But it's funny that you mentioned, you know, sometimes generosity is for a different reason. So it's just like control. I'm just watching the latest season of Bad Sisters. And there's this one character who is very charitable, is always volunteering and very a big part of the community. But then you kind of recognize she's not actually being generous for the sake of being generous and giving. She uses it to control people. She's using it. It's like, well, you can't be mad at me or you can't, you know, ask this of me because

look how important I am i'm a very generous person kind of thing and i think we probably most of us have probably encountered someone like that where they come they kind of look like a martyr but you know they're not coming from a good place and we need to recognize that yeah yes they're trying to build some kind of exterior that is you know that people can admire or maybe even that is, you know, that people can admire, or maybe even envy, which, you know, sometimes masks a real vulnerability in them, or a desire to control, as you say. Exactly. Yeah, that's, that's a very interesting take, I think, on generosity that I haven't really heard explored before. So I think that's just a really interesting thing. Now, kind of going back to the, you know, the, the root of your book, which is

really uncovering your relationship with money, which I think most people have never really sat down and thought about how, you know, obviously I know it's possible to change your, your money attitude, your, your behaviors, your patterns. But I think when you're at the start, it can seem very overwhelming. So would you have any advice for when you're at the start, maybe you finish the book and you're like, OK, I want to get started. I don't like where should I start?

What questions should I start asking just so I can have a better understanding of my own personal relationship with money so I can improve it and make it a healthier relationship? I would invite people to be curious next time they do anything with money and try to kind of get into the habit of kind of pausing for a second and wondering, why am I doing what I'm doing how do I feel about it am I comfortable with this financial behavior whatever it was you know you've just spent something you've just bought a gift you just tipped you you know just put money away how did it make you feel whatever it is try to be curious and don't judge yourself. I find that a lot of shame gets attached to money. So many people feel they should be better than they are with money. And, you know, being your own judge is not going to help you ask the questions that will really

get to the vulnerable places in you that might be expressing something. So try to, you know, as a therapist would in the room, instead of saying, you know, that's wrong, why are you doing it? Be inquisitive. Say, well, you know, that's interesting. Why do I always do that? And try to pick up on patterns. You know, do I do it with people, by myself? When did I last feel like this? What am I hoping to achieve? There's, I think, so many different questions, both open-ended, but also kind of specific to how you do it, that can help you be your own investigator in a way and as you say sometimes it's the broad question that opens things up like the enough for what or what does money mean to me you know does it does it represent credibility does it represent security does it represent status freedom freedom? You know, it will be different for every person.

So even an answer there can point you to, oh, that's why I do this or that. So I think because I tackle so many different money issues in the book, I think there isn't one questionnaire that would work for everyone yeah but but i think that the right approach is one of being curious and and wonder of in relationships for example what am i trying to say through this money fight or um through this exchange you, I've seen couples who might not want to merge bank accounts, not because they don't think it's practical, but because they're afraid of relationships. You know, they don't really feel they can fully trust another person to be around and, you know, for a long time. And so it's their way of putting a barrier,

a concrete boundary that helps them feel safe enough in a relationship to stay in it. So if that's the money issue that often comes up in your relationship, then, you know, try to unpack where, you know, is this really about the practicalities or is there more to this? You know, what about this relationship makes it difficult for me? Or what about past relationship

makes it difficult for me to want to merge financially with somebody? Yeah, no, I think that's really important. The way you said is observe your feelings, but don't judge them. I think we are often very self-critical and easy to judge ourselves, but it's really about observing. So then you can start asking those questions without judgment. Why? Or tell me more. And then slowly, I'd assume you could, you know, start to put the pieces together and see those patterns, like you said, that, you know, now, you know, when you kind of take a step back, you're like, oh, that's so obvious. Or maybe some other people

would have recognized it, but because you're in it and it's you, it's, it's just, you know, out of your, it's in your blind spot. And I think that's something that we often don't do. We are always about, let's figure out the problem and solve it instead of really digging deep and sitting with it to then really uncover what's what's going on because usually it's not maybe as obvious as we would like it to be it takes time and that's why you wrote a whole book on it there's all these people you've worked with that went to you because they could not figure it out on their own they needed someone else to help facilitate. One example that comes to mind are people who struggle to negotiate their salary. You see, I've seen people that come to me with,

you know, having gone on the course that gives them the tips and tools to, you know, negotiate appropriately and, you know, have the right technique in doing it. But there is a part of them that kind of fails to do it. And so what we try to unpack together is where is that coming from? And sometimes there is a part of them that might have grown up feeling that the world doesn't respond to them favorably. So imagine, you know, a young child walking with their, you know, newly drawn scribble to the parents and being shooed away, or, you know, wanting to help in the garage and being told to leave. If the predominant amount of experiences you've had is like that, then you'll carry a sense in you that you won't be well received

and people will deny your requests. And so when you walk into, I don't know, a client pitch or a salary negotiation, there might be that voice in your head that thinks, well, don't be ridiculous, you're never going to get this. And so you back off. For other people, the struggle was coming from, you know, having picked up messages growing up, either in certain political or religious families that, you know, being greedy is bad, you have to be content with what you have, don't ask for too much, know your place. And so those little voices are in the back of their minds, kind of getting in the way of having an effective salary negotiation, which, you know, their rational self knows they deserve it. That's where they should be getting paid. So I think trying to

unearth what voice is talking to me in that moment? What is that, you know, the subtitles going on while I'm trying to say one thing, you know, there's a different narrative in my mind that is getting in the way. And I think that's another good way to access those unconscious thoughts. Yeah, I mean, I can definitely relate with the salary stuff. I was terrible at not negotiating and not asking for more anything. Part of it was coming from, you know, my background, Catholic, lots of guilt, lots of, you know, be humble, all that kind of stuff. It took me a long time to recognize that I wasn't being greedy or selfish for asking for more, which is because, you know, when you have more, you, it fulfills a lot of other needs, like your, your sense of security, um, discomfort,

but also it allows you more freedom. And, you know, you can, you know, I can donate more money because I'm earning more money. There's all these kinds of elements, but, uh, it took me a long time to start listening to that voice that I'm like, wait, why, you know, why do I, you know, feel like I don't deserve it? Or I shouldn't even ask? How dare I? Yeah, I think that's, that's such a great. Yeah, lesson is start listening to that voice, because it's in there. And it's often we just brush it aside. But that's, that's the key. Oh, my gosh. Well, I know we can probably talk for a whole other hour because there's so many other things that we didn't get to that are in your book that are so, so important. But your book is called my, let me try that again. But your book is called money on your mind,

the psychology behind your financial habits. And do you want to kind of share where people can find you grab a copy of the book, follow you on social media if you're on it, where can they find all those details? The book is out in the UK already, but it's coming out in North America on January 7th, and it will be available on most online retailers and booksellers. And people can find me on LinkedIn and on Instagram. So Vicky Raynaud, it's my name, R-E-Y-N-A-L. And yeah, I'm looking forward to connecting with a lot of your listeners.

Yeah, well, thank you so much. I really enjoyed your book. I think it's such a book that, you know, people need to read because it will unlock, I think, a lot of things that they've never thought about that could be the thing that they've been looking for. And they just haven't ever asked the right questions or even just thought about, huh, I didn't even realize I was doing that. That's most of us with our money habs. We have no idea. They're all subconscious, unconscious. So I'm so glad you were able to take some time to come on the show. I really appreciate it and highly recommend everyone grabbing a copy of your book. So thank you so much for taking the time and coming on the More Money Podcast. Thank you very much, Jessica. And I look forward to reading yours too.

Thank you. And that was my episode with Vicky Raynall. Make sure to follow her on Instagram at Vicky Raynall Psychotherapy. You can also find her website, raynall-psychotherapist.co.uk. I will link to her LinkedIn, her Instagram, her website, her book in the show notes for this episode. You can find that at jessicamorehouse.com slash podcast or jessicamorehouse.com slash the number of that episode. And if you never know where to find it, honestly, you can just shoot me an email at jessica at jessicamorehouse.com slash the number of that episode. And if you never know where to find it, honestly, you can just shoot me an email at Jessica at Jessica more house.com or shoot me a DM on Instagram. I'm at Jessica. I more house. And don't forget to grab a copy of her book money on your

mind, the psychology behind your financial habits available in North America on January 7th. But like I said at the beginning of this episode, I will be giving away a copy of her book. If you go to jessicamorehouse.com slash contest, that is where you can find her book and a bunch of other books that have been featured on this season of the podcast that you can enter to win. Once this season is wrapped up, I will be selecting winners sometime in January. So you've got some time. I will like give you some time over the holidays and all that kind of stuff to continue to enter to win. So make sure to go to JessicaMorehouse.com slash contest to do that. Do not sleep on that.

And yeah, that's that was the episode. I hope you really liked it. But speaking of books, I also have a book that's along the same lines that you may also enjoy called Everything But Money, The Hidden Barriers Between You and Financial Freedom, available December 31st of 2024. purchase, then you will get access to a bunch of exclusive extras, worksheets, audio, video, a bunch of things that you will not be able to access if you buy the book later. So make sure to go to jessicamorehouse.com book. There's links on where you can buy it. I've also been kind of floating around the idea of doing a book tour. I don't have anything confirmed at the minute. I will absolutely be doing an event for the book in Toronto and Vancouver. Toronto is where I live. Vancouver is my hometown. But it is looking very positive that I will

be going to other cities. Calgary was very popular with everybody when I did a poll recently. And, you know, then you're kind of like, might as well just go to a bunch of other places in Canada. Why not? I always kind of think, this may be my only book, you never know. And so why would I not just do a book tour? Do I love the idea of doing a book tour in February in Canada? No. But also, what are you going to do? You know, there's a reason to get out of the house, right? And there's no such thing as bad weather, just bad clothing, just get a better jacket, right? That's what the Nordics and the, you know, the Scandinavians believe. So I think we need to just take that approach to winter moving forward. So if you want to stay in the

loop of all that, I will be, you know, on the podcast as much as I can sharing information. But the best way to kind of stay in the loop is following me on Instagram at Jessica I. Morehouse. Also, the podcast Instagram at More Money Podcast, but also my newsletter, my email list, JessicaMorehouse.com slash subscribe is where you can get on that. And then you will find out all those details. But yeah, book tour definitely happening this winter. Very excited. But dates, TBD to be determined. Another thing I just want to remind you of real quick before letting you go. I'm actually a couple of things. Number one, my budgeting accountability group. The second cohort will

be starting in January. And there's still a few weeks where you can pre-register or register. So go to jessicamorehouse.com slash shop. And if you scroll down that page, you'll find a button where you can learn more and sign up. So do that if you are interested. I also have my budget spreadsheets on that page if you're looking for a budget to organize your finances. But I just want to give you some insight into, you know, what's ahead for the podcast. So we are actually, I don't think I've ever done this. I usually try to wrap things up well before Christmas, but we're going right up until Christmas. I've got, I just had some great guests that I couldn't turn away. And so I'm like, all right, let's do this. And so we have, let's see, how many more people do we have on this show? We got one, two, three, four. There's

three guests. And then I'm going to do a solo episode on December 31st when my book comes out. So we've got lots more episodes to come. And then I might take a week off or maybe two weeks in January. I don't know. And then next season is going to be really exciting because we're going to do a re-listen podcast. I'm going to sprinkle in some new guest interviews, but I've already kind of compiled my favorite episodes, some of the most popular episodes so we can re-listen. And yeah, I'm excited for it. And then we're going to, June of 2025, I'm going to hit 10 years of the More Money Podcast, which is wild.

Anyways, that's a lot of talking. Thank you so much for listening and watching. I will see you back here next Wednesday for a fresh new episode of the More Money Podcast. Until then, you know, keep safe, keep warm and see you next week. The More Money Podcast would not be possible without the amazing talents of video editor Justice Carrar and podcast producer Matt Rideout, who you can find at MRABCanada.com. This podcast is distributed by the women in media podcast network find out more at women in media.network