More Money Podcast - From the Archives: Relistening to Alan Henry Explain How to Navigate a Toxic Workplace

Episode Date: December 4, 2025

Have you ever felt unheard or unseen at work? Or have you ever experienced microaggressions from your co-workers? You’re not alone. Back in 2022, I interviewed Alan Henry, author of Seen, Heard & Paid, to discuss how to navigate a toxic work environment and how to advocate for yourself and others who are more susceptible to discrimination in the workplace due to their skin colour, gender, and other differences. I loved this interview so much that I even shared part of Alan's story in my book Everything but Money, so I hope you enjoy this episode from the archives just as much as I did. This episode originally aired on September 28, 2022.To find the original show notes for this episode, visit jessicamoorhouse.com/337Follow meInstagram @jessicaimoorhouseThreads @jessicaimoorhouseTikTok @jessicaimoorhouseFacebook @jessicaimoorhouseYouTube @jessicamoorhouseLinkedIn - Jessica MoorhouseFinancial resourcesMy websiteMy bestselling book Everything but MoneyFree resource libraryBudget spreadsheetWealth Building Blueprint for Canadians course Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Lou Lou, and welcome back to the more money podcast. I'm your host, Jessica Morehouse, and we are doing another re-listen episode, bringing this episode back from the archives, not too long ago, but kind of a long time ago. It feels like just yesterday. I had Alan Henry on my show, but apparently it was September 2020. So that was three years ago, over three years ago. And this is another episode that not only did I absolutely love his book and love talking to him on this. the show. He was a big inspiration when I was writing my book. His story made it into my book Everything But Money, just like a few guests from my podcast. Isn't that funny how these things work out? Good thing I have a podcast. And I have the privilege to talk to so many inspiring, amazing people. But he came on the show back in 2022 to discuss his book, which I highly recommend reading called Seen, Heard, and Paid, which is a book all about navigating. toxic work environments and giving marginalized groups of people the tools they need to succeed in their careers. I think a lot of us probably had some experiences that you can connect with

that he talks about in the book. And gosh, he is not only just an amazing, inspiring person and dealt with a lot of, you know, barriers, getting to the place that he is as a very successful writer and editor. So just to catch you up, because I think he, when I, had him on the show he was still at Wired and before that he worked at the new york times and now he's working for pc magazine a pc meg as a managing editor and you can read his work wherever he used to also be the editor-in-chief at life hacker man he's been around he's been around for a very long time and doing what he's been doing and he does it so well but for this episode specifically we talk about his book seen heard and paid which i think was such an important

book and, you know, a really important conversation we had back then. And we're still having these conversations now because the work is still not done to make things safer and more equitable in the workplace. So you're going to love this re-listen episode with me and Alan Henry. Let's get to it. Welcome, Alan, to the show. I'm so excited to have you here with me to talk about one of my favorite topics, not being seen or not being heard and not being paid well. thank you for having me it's great to be here you're so welcome you're so welcome like i mentioned before i hit the record button i mean oh my gosh if your book had been around well i'm sure this is

why you wrote the book because it didn't exist but if your book had been around when i was in my 20s navigating the corporate world gosh i'm sure i wonder where i'd be i mean i think i'm supposed to be but uh everything in your book was so it just hit me so personally i'm like oh my gosh I've experienced so much of this. And I think a big reason why it took me so long to really recognize it and get over it, quite honestly, is because there weren't labels like there are today, like microaggressions and gaslighting, things like that. Having a label for certain things that exist means the world of difference.

So, and we're going to get into all of that because I'm very excited. I love your book. Oh, thank you. Yeah. But tell me a little bit about yourself. You have an amazing also kind of. career that you've had, but tell me a little bit about how you got to this point where you're like, this is the book that needs to be written. Oh, wow. Yeah. I mean, my background is not in,

I am a journalist, but my background isn't in journalism. I went to school for theoretical astrophysics. Oh my gosh. That sounds very smart. I mean, it sounds that way. And like, I mean, I'm not to minimize my accomplishment or anything, but honestly, like, I was fun and I'm glad I did it, but I distinctly did not want to work in science or in academia. And honestly, for a lot of the reasons that, you know, are also reasons why I wrote the book. Because back then, I also didn't have the language to understand why I felt like I was being left out of everything, right? And so I just started working with computers and I was in tech for a while. And eventually I just started, you know, back in the mid, oh, geez, I guess it was a mid-2000s or something.

I started blogging back when blogs were a thing. Remember blogs? I still technically have a blog. Yeah, I'm sure. See, that's good. Keep it alive. That's where I started. That's where I started blogging.

So you and me. Yeah. And like so I was doing that for a while and eventually, you know, a couple of, a couple of publications that I deeply respected. And I was commenting on and big fans of. They were like, hey, you seem to know how to put some words together. Do you want to, you know, write a couple things for us, contribute on a random basis, so to speak. So I did. And, of course, the pay wasn't great, but it was okay because I had a full-time job back

then. So I was just doing it as a passion thing. And I did the thing that I would tell no one else to do. I decided to quit my full-time job and be a full-time freelance writer a week after moving into a very expensive apartment in Washington, D.C. Oh, gosh. Yeah, it was not a great scene. But at the same time, I got really, really lucky.

And Lifehacker, the site that I ran for a little while, the editor-in-chevee. then picked me up and said, hey, you know, we're doing a new thing around here, which is hiring people. Do you want to be one of our, you want to be one of our writers? And he did. And that's how I started in journalism. The book came around because I was at the New York Times for about three years at this point. And that's like cool. Like I remember you wrote in your book, you're like, you know, you have this idea of working for the New York Times as kind of like me, the pinnacle of most, you know, if you're a journalist, you're like, oh, I'd love to work there. And you had an interesting experience. Yeah, it wasn't great.

Right. It wasn't a great experience at all. I mean, I shouldn't say that. I loved my time there. I did a lot of work that I'm very proud of, and I have a lot of friends who still work there. But I distinctly noticed that I continued to have to feel like I had to earn my place, right? I had been hired. I had been through the gamut of interviews from the person that I'd be sitting next to in the newsroom all the way up to Dean Bequet, the executive editor at the time. I had talked to all these people and they all agreed that I'd be an asset and everything. So I felt like, and I was coming in after having been editor-in-chief of a, you know, relatively popular publication. So I'm like, oh, yeah, this is going to be great. You know, these people are going to respect my time and expertise. And that's not totally what happened. A lot of people there did, and a lot of people there didn't.

And I noticed slowly over time that I was starting to be kind of pushed out of meetings, pushed out of opportunities, left out of things that I could have had a big impact on, even things in my own team, you know. And that was when I just kind of in a fit of frustration, I just started writing down little notes to myself, like, how would I complain about this job? What do I think about this? And ultimately, a lot of those notes and a lot of my own catharsis turned into this article that I wrote at the times so no one else could tell me not to because it was in my own

section called what to do if you feel like you're being discriminated against at work. Did your bosses know that you were writing about where you were working? Nope, not at all. Oh my God, that's amazing. They did not. And the perks of being a senior editor was, you know, my boss actually oversaw like three different teams and she had been promoted to go to a different team. So our team was left without a manager for a very long time.

So I just kind of, you know, got a friend on the copy desk to edit it, got a friend in the fact-checking desk to do some fact-checks for me. And we published it. And it turned into a thing, a big thing and got a lot of feedback from people who are saying, wow, you know, usually when people write about what to do if they feel like they've been discriminated against, it's like, oh, contact the EEOC, talk to HR, do these things. And those things can be helpful. And not HR. That's never helped. That is also true. That's very true. But I can, I kind of contextualized in terms of, like, hey, the feelings that you're going through are legitimate. These experiences that you're having are real, even if the rest of your environment is

trying to kind of make it out like they're not. And that's what led to my book editor, emailing me after that article went up, saying, hey, do you want to talk about turning this article into a book? Well, that email went to spam. Oh, no! Yep. Oh, my gosh. But the email that didn't go to spam was the one from who is now, the person who is now my agent, who works very closely with that editor.

Like the two of them had gotten coffee and talked about my article and said, no, we need this guy to write a book. So he invited me over to talk about, you know, the book and ideas and whether or not we wanted to make this a real thing. And the rest from the book perspective is history. Now, I did wind up leaving the New York Times while all of this was. kind of bubbling to the surface. Like I was going back and forth. Do I want to write this? Do I want to write this at the Times?

Yeah. And through the Times' own publishing house. Yeah. It's a complicated. It was very complicated. And I had some very good friends at the Times who gave me great advice. They were like, no, take this book, do your own thing. Because if you publish it at the Times, then the Times gets to read it.

The Times gets to request changes. And not that necessarily any of that would have been inherently, bad. But if I wanted the real freedom to tell the story I wanted to, I had to do it on my own. Yeah. That's amazing. That's so amazing. Yeah, I probably would have left. I mean, honestly, I wasn't, I didn't feel comfortable talking about some of my workplace experiences until I quit my last corporate job almost six years ago because, I mean, I can't, even though I had like a blog and this podcast, I could not share any of that. It's like, what if I need to get hire it again. I don't want to tarnish my reputation and look like I'm complaining or whatever,

even if I'm just telling the truth, quite honestly. And then, yeah, I wasn't until I left my corporate job and felt, I felt comfortable sharing my, my experience, which is unfortunate because I probably could have, I wish I was able to voice some of that, because I feel like I probably could have helped a lot of other people who had similar experiences. So thank you for also being able to, you know, share this and the raw, honest truth. Because like I said, when I was going through the book and all the things that you were sharing, it just hit me so like, oh my gosh, to the core. I'm like, gosh. And so I wanted to kind of dive in because I feel like a lot of other people, I'm like obviously encourage people to read the book, but just some of the things that you shared were just like,

and also, too, and you do address this too, because it's really about marginalized groups. And that could look like, you know, people of color, it could be women. Honestly, it can be men. Sometimes I talk to my husband and he's like, I experienced that too. So it's like, it can be anybody can have had these experiences. But I think what the, like, like you kind of mentioned earlier, it's like we need to be, I feel like validated that we're not crazy that this has happened. So I know you do talk about gaslighting a lot. And this is kind of my favorite word of the moment because there was not a word to experience all the gaslighting have had in my life until like recently. I'm like, oh my gosh, I know I wasn't crazy, but there

was no word to describe that experience. So I want to kind of talk about that because I feel like that is so prevalent in so many organizations. And I think it's getting a little bit better. But can you kind of share, you know, what are some experiences that people may have had? And what exactly is the solution? Like, I still don't quite honestly know. Now I can recognize it and label it, but I have no idea how to move forward. And you've, I mean, you were really, you know, honest in your book about some of your experiences and how you were able to handle it. And sometimes it's like you're stuck between two options that aren't great. Yeah, that's true. And it's one of those things, just like you said, I mean, and I tell this to everybody, right? Marginization is for everyone. I mean, it is, I mean, and everybody, like women in majority male workspaces, disabled people or people with chronic disabilities or chronic illnesses or invisible disabilities in everywhere, right? And it can be people of color, it could be people with certain religious backgrounds and everything. And, yeah, it can be men in majority female spaces, you know, you never know. But, yeah, the thing that really bothered me, especially in my own experience, was this notion of some, something bad happens to you or something problematic happens to you.

And instead of the focus being on the thing that happened, the focus suddenly turns to, well, did it really happen like that? Or was it that bad? Or what was the intention behind it? And that's another thing. There's an activist and activist radio host, Jay Smooth. I think he's based here in New York City. And he did a wonderful YouTube video a while ago about how to tell someone that something they did is racist versus calling them racist, right?

And that was, I mean, that was a kind of turning point for me when I discovered it whenever he posted it, wages ago. But it was one of those things where he pointed out the way to drive change and kind of self-accountability is to remind people, hey, I'm not saying you're a bad person. I'm not saying you're problematic. I'm just saying, hey, this thing you did hurts. And, I mean, I'm sure you don't want to hurt me, right? And in some cases, a person might actually want to. But when you frame it like that, of course, the issue now is the focus is on their behavior, not their personality. But when it comes to gaslighting, like when something bad, especially in the workplace, happens to you, the focus quickly turns from addressing the behavior.

to making sure you're not rocking the boat and making sure that you kind of get back to being a happy, productive little worker. And that's not great. I mean, you have to be able to get over the action, get over the thing that happened, because if not, it's going to happen again, and it's going to happen again, and somebody else is going to do it, and you're going to focus again on trying to get around it, not acknowledge it. To me, the key to fixing all of that is to cultivate this environment of psychological safety. And that's kind of the buzzword for me. And I mentioned a lot in the book,

but it's something that I feel like managers desperately need to cultivate on their teams and employees like normal people like you or me need to have that with their coworkers and with their managers. Otherwise, they're not going to be able to bring up the things that bother them in the first place. So if you have that psychological safety,

you can go to your boss and say, hey, this thing happened, I'm not trying to tell you to turn the world upside down to get an apology or make it right. I just want to call it out and say, I don't appreciate that. I would love it if it didn't happen again. But if you don't have that psychological safety, of course, you're not going to say anything. You're going to internalize it, right? And there are solutions to that as well. But, I mean, to me, the key is to make sure that you have that. And if you don't have it, then you really need to reassess whether or not it's an environment you want to stay in at all. Yeah, well, that's the thing. That's probably why I've left all of my jobs. And most people are like,

yeah, that's usually why you have to leave. But I also, you talk about it in the book how it isn't your job to fix these systemic issues because they're prevalent. They're big. You're just one person. And I think that's, you know, over the past few years, as we, I think as a society been having a lot more of these conversations, it is, we're still navigating like, how do we make change. Because the people that I think that really want to make change, they feel kind of alone. It's difficult to get a big force to actually make change. And then also to combating actually make real change compared to just making it look like changes happening with a new department or diversity and inclusion committee. Right. Right. Which usually, I mean, I don't know. The ones

that I've seen are just, just for show a little bit. Exactly, 100%. I've seen good ones, but I've seen a lot of bad ones. Yeah, yeah. So I guess that's the tricky part is navigating. Well, I guess maybe it's just about choosing those workplaces that do have that kind of psychological safety net and leaving the places that are just like, you know what, it is not my job to fix this.

I don't need to put, but you know, I think a lot of us like me, I'm a fixer. I know lots of people are fixers out there. And that's usually probably why I stayed at some of these jobs a little bit too long because I thought it could make change. And then what happens is typically you'd get like burnt out or, you know, just spending more money in therapy and all that kind of stuff. You know, it's, yeah, it's a tricky thing to navigate. And the other thing that you discuss in your book is how to respond. So you also talk about microaggressions, which I think is, again, a great label for a thing that it existed, but there wasn't a term for it. And it's, it's, it's, it's frustrating that we, like, reading your book, like, man, do we as individuals who are marginalized half, we have to do a lot of work in order to navigate just the normal world.

But I guess one of our big jobs and it's just like a survival tactic is like, how do we respond when things happen? So do you want to kind of speak a little bit to that? Like, what are some responses that maybe we normally would do that aren't effective and what are some more effective responses to when we are dealt with something like this? Oh, yeah. It's one of those things. So the person that invented the phrase microaggressions is a psychologist named Daryl Wing Sue. He's still teaching. He's wonderful. I wasn't able to reach him for the book, but I sent him a copy anyway because I'm so grateful. Like someday I want him to sign my book, right? But he and one of his students, Kevin Nadal, came up with the microaggressions response handbook. And it is a wonderful thing. I mean, it's easily Googlerable too. Just Google microaggressions response handbook, and you will find a PDF. And it's fantastic because he drills down a lot of the things that we would do, right? We generally, when we feel slighted, our first reaction is to get defensive or to get angry or to kind of push back, which are all legitimate feelings, right?

There needs to be space for that anger, but that space for that anger and that rage has to be in spaces where it can be productive, right? And for a lot of marginalized people that is either on a DEI committee, right, for example, or in an employee resource group where, you know, you're surrounded by people who are like you or have similar struggles to you so you can all kind of commiserate. But in the moment, on the other hand, one of the things that I like to do that I pulled from the handbook is I like to ask clarifying questions, which kind of turns the onus of explaining what just happened around to the person who just said the thing or did the thing. And it's one of those things where, you know, if you're a kid in school and you do something wrong in class and the teacher calls on you and says something like, you know, oh, did you bring enough to share for everybody? You know, like, they, they put the question back to you so you realize you're in trouble, right? So if somebody says something problematic, then, you know, I can turn to them and say, no, I don't understand.

What do you mean by that? Right. And that then, I mean, they now have to explain the joke, right? And you know you're in trouble if you have to explain the joke. And it's stuff like that. I mean, what do you mean by that? Or, you know, no, I don't understand. Can you clarify why you think that, right?

or why you think that blank equals blank or whatever you just said. And oftentimes that's enough to get somebody to kind of stand down or it opens the door for you to slide in and say, I don't necessarily agree with that, but we can move on, right? And then you kind of point out to the person that, hey, I'm not necessarily a safe person for you to make those kinds of statements around or to make that kind of joke around. I'm not on your side here, but I'm also not looking for a big explosive confrontation. And that can often move you past it, right? I remember, I mentioned this in the book,

but I had this situation where my laptop kept getting unplugged. And it's such a minor thing, right? It's such a minor thing. But this is the point of a microaggression. It's designed to be a small thing that is imminently deniable to the person who does it to you. But it's also designed to make you spend your time second-guessing that person's intentions

while also correcting whatever action that they did to you when you could be doing your job and that's like what you were saying it takes oftentimes marginalized folks have to spend more time doing more work on top of their actual work just to get by

and that's not great and I hate telling people like yeah you have to do an additional job in order to be good at your job but and sometimes as long as that additional job is also the job of protecting yourself, I feel like it's a fair ask. Yeah. No, it just honestly, really book gave me so many memories of, you know, things that

happened, like, you know, one workplace where someone who was sort of a superior to me, but always took, you know, credit for all of my work. He would purposely, if we were to be in a meeting together on some project they were working on together, book it for a time that he knew that. I'd be too busy because there was certain, like, deadline. and whatnot. And I'm like, okay. And it was hard for me to deny. Well, I didn't know you were busy. Why are you always busy on that time? Well, this was when the other person was available. It was impossible for me to get ahead. But again, I was in my early 20s. And I was just trying to like, wow, he's a real jerk. Exactly. Well, I mean, yes, correct. But also, yeah, when you're, I mean,

no one gives you those tools. Like, you know, oh, when you're prepared for the workforce, no one tells you how to deal with somebody who does that. Well, yeah. And one thing that also made me think a lot about it. It's like the advice that we were given, I think lots of us was just like this blanket general advice for how to be successful in the workplace. And a lot of that advice I got, I was thinking, I'm like, I think it was actually just meant for like privileged white men because when I did it, it didn't work. You know, that put your head down and do the do good work, work hard and you'll be promoted and all that. I'm like, I never got a promotion. I never got a raise unless I like asked for it and I only got to raise once. So I, but I was like an exception. worker. Now, I mean, here's proof in the pudding. I run my own corporation. So, you know, I'm not an idiot. I know what I'm doing. But it's one of those things. It's like, we have to kind of let go. I think of a lot of this general advice that we got if you fit into one of these categories. And then, yeah, like, it was it in your book that you're like, take what works and then leave the rest kind of thing? Leave the rest. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, you do. I mean, and that's the thing. For example,

one of the researchers, one of the social scientists I spoke to for the book, explained to, me that part of the reason why people who are different of any stripe, right, get marginalized is because as a society we have this kind of mindset, this ideal of what a leader looks like, what a good worker looks like. When you think of a CEO and you ask 10 different people what a CEO looks like, they're going to think about people like Elon Musk. They're going to think about people like Jeff Bezos, right? But these are all, you know, middle-aged white men. And they don't think of a CEO as someone in a wheelchair or a CEO as a woman or a woman of color. Like, they're not, they don't, this is not the image that comes to mind.

And when that's the case, you then have to come ready to fight that misconception for everything. And that's not just like access to the C-suite, but for a raise, right? Like, you can keep your head down and do good work. And then I think the person I spoke to referred to that is like the busy B syndrome, where, like we're so told, we're also often told that like, oh, yeah, good, the best, the cream rises to the top, right? The best get rewarded. And in practice, that's never what happens. And you have to advocate for yourself, but you can't advocate for yourself too much or else you're going to be seen as aggressive or, you know, not a team player or, you know, out for yourself. And you just, it's such a tricky thing to navigate that some people, especially with privilege, don't have to navigate at all. And it's very, very difficult. But there are, luckily, ways to advocate for yourself that focus on your accomplishments and your skills.

And in a way, I find that by writing about them, like one of my favorite tips forever is keeping a work diary. But I find that, like, in that process, it is both great for me as a worker, right, to document my skills and document my accomplishments and achievements. it's also great therapy in a way because I'm kind of talking myself up and I'm openly criticizing my own weaknesses and my own areas where I fall short, but also my wins, small and large and the things that I can celebrate. And then I'm ready to go to my boss and say, okay, I need, I deserve that raise. I need that raise, but I deserve it. And here is why. And it has nothing to do with your perception of what my work is or your perception of what a good worker looks like. We're talking about these actual tangible things that I have done that I've written down.

And you can't really argue. I mean, you can argue with data, but you, I mean, in general, most people would like to say that when presented with actual hard facts, they would understand, oh, yeah, you're actually doing great work right there. Maybe you do deserve a raise. I can make the case to my boss that you deserve a raise. is because you've laid out the case for me. Exactly.

Yeah, I mean, that was one tip of that and, yeah, keeping track of your accomplishments, which I think is so, so important. And also just keeping your resume juzged all the time. I used to always, all the time. I always had a resume. I actually haven't looked at it in a while, but I obviously, because I, you know, run my own thing now.

Yeah, but, but, you know, for every job I ever had, I was always looking at ways to make it look better, you know, put all, yeah, put like those accomplishments that you're already tracking on there because very well you will come to a point this was you know my experience did the tracking did all that because i got really into looking how to you know what are some hacks and i can you know actually really use and you know when i didn't just you know go in i'm like i deserve a raise it's like i deserve raise here's also a little powerpoint and here's some facts and here's all the things so it looks like i know what i'm talking

about and but then you know so either that'll work and sometimes it totally works and sometimes in my case it did not where my boss said that's a great yes I totally agree you deserve a raise and her boss was like we don't have the budget but of course other people got that money so that's at that point where I'm like well I did what I had to do so now I need to exit left and go to another route but I mean it's even great to have those list of accomplishments because then when you are in an interview then you could be like what did you accomplish in your last job here's this huge list and this is why I would be a huge asset to your company. That is my favorite thing about keeping a work diary, a favorite thing about keeping track

of those accomplishments. Because, you know, everybody hates that question, like, oh, tell me about a time where you were challenged and you overcame it, you know? What is, what's your greatest weakness? And, like, instead of resorting to, like, a really bad answer, like, oh, I'm a workaholic. You can't get me to stop. You know, instead of something like that, you have real answers, right? You have a real project.

you can say, oh, geez, back in X time, I worked on Y project, and it didn't go well, but here's how I got it back on track. You know, you can, you have that stuff written down. You don't have to come up with something. And that's so powerful because you know how much you're worth, right? You can, and if your boss doesn't agree, or if your boss's boss or your CFO says, oh, we don't have the budget for a raise, okay, you know what you're worth. You can go talk to other people who will agree with you. And that's so empowering, even if you do want to stay there in the current job anyway, right? Because then you can walk in knowing I deserve the space that I take.

I deserve the air that I'm taking up and I deserve this seat at the table. And when the point comes where I feel like I deserve more than this, I can go get it. And that's a wonderful thing. That's a wonderful place to be mentally. And I think it's never been more important than now where so many more people are are working remotely. I mean, some people have completely shifted

to 100% remote work. And the one kind of thing I hear from people is they are worried that this will actually stagnate their career because sometimes, I mean, my last workplace was very, very corporate where you had, it was about being seen like at your desk,

even though you're going to be doing nothing. I mean, I was making my exit strategy. Yeah, yeah. They thought I was working on. I'm like, yeah, sure.

But now they don't see you. So you need to have other evidence of not just being online at the times that you're supposed to, but having those kind of data points to show them. And I think this has got to be the new normal because more and more people are going to request remote work. But even still, it is about, well, I really appreciate how you talk about in your book. It's not about working harder.

It's about working smarter. And I think that really hit home because I'm like, I was always working harder and probably not smarter. And that's something that I kind of wish I could go back in time because it's about figuring out how can it look like I am busy. even though I am busy, but not too busy, because, you know, a lot of the time, I mean, I was doing stuff that I'm like, no one even knows I'm doing this, you know? Exactly.

So what's the point of me doing it if no one knows? What's the point in doing it? I mean, that's the thing, right? Back when I was at LifeHacker, we used to do a thing every, I think it was a week of Halloween, every year called Evil Week, where we would write about all of our, like, bad life hacks, you know, the things that are like kind of be kind of on the dark side, right? And I wrote an article years ago about how to master the art of looking busy

and it was a lot of these tips which were like how to it sounded bad but it's really good advice as in how to manage your time, how to manage your boundaries, how to say no without ruining your career. So you have bandwidth when a good opportunity comes up

rather than just saying yes to everything because you want to look like you're a team player. And that's such a dangerous thing because you can get caught up in that very easily. I mean, I did at the New York Times. I still catch myself doing it now, where I find myself answering emails well into the evening for things that don't need a response right away.

I know. I'm still bad at that, too. You know, yeah. And, I mean, sometimes it feels good to get it out of the way, but other times it's like I could be cooking dinner instead of ordering takeout. You know what I mean? I could be going for a walk instead of sitting at my desk.

And I find it as often as possible, I try to tell people like, no, reclaim that time, you know, make sure that you are looking out, not just for like your health and well-being, but future you who may wake up tomorrow morning and get reassigned to something or get a great opportunity that instead of saying, yeah, oh, yeah, I'll get back to you tomorrow. You're going to need to reply to that person and say, hey, I'm being reassigned or I'm working on something else. I don't know what I'm going to be able to get to this, but I'll keep it on the back burner

or something like that, right? you never know. But there is a certain point where you do need to keep part of your plate clear so you're not constantly overwhelmed or quickly burn yourself out. Yeah. And I think an important element to that for me, what I've kind of realized over the years is recognizing why do you feel like you always need to be available 24-7? And part of it, I think, was because I was working so hard and could never get ahead in the way that I imagined. I thought it wasn't working hard enough. So I thought I had to work harder. And that meant being online and answering emails.

And for me, one of the kind of tipping points for me were like, this isn't normal and this isn't healthy. And this isn't like the life that you should be living was when I was like years. I didn't have a vacation. My husband and I went to Paris finally. I was gone for one week and I hadn't taken a whole vacation in two years of this one job. And I'm like, I'm going to be in Paris for God's sakes. Don't email me.

And I got an urgent email. They tried to get me. They found me on social media. you were like, hey, Jess, can you answer your email? And it's because they couldn't access this one account or something. Because I did social media for the company, even though there was someone else that was supposed to be taken care of it. But here's the kicker.

It was a white man. He was also on vacation. They did not bug him. But they bugged me. And I'm like, okay. Yeah. I'm like, didn't you try to get out? Oh, yeah, we couldn't get a hold of him.

I'm like, but you got a hold of me? Right. That's not fair. I'm out. Come on. Paris, for God's sakes. Yeah. Like, come on.

And it's a time difference in every. I mean, yeah. And that's one of those things. They found you on social media. They, I mean, they walked right past your boundaries into your personal space to see if they could find you. And, I mean, I'm willing to bet they did not go to that same length with this other person. Probably not. Yeah.

That was that was one moment where we're like, oh, yeah, things are different for me compared to this guy who does the exact, literal same job as me. Same job. But he was kind of at the time where, like, I was Canada and he was the UK version of the company or whatever. But I'm like, huh. Yeah. Huh. that's not cool that's not cool it's my first vacation two years and this is what happens boundaries and that's when i'm like you know what i need to and that's that was the beginning of the

end of that job but boundaries is so important but yeah i think a lot of us who've been dealing with this these experiences for so long it gets normalized and so we think we almost deserve that life you know but it's like you know like you say you deserve a better life just because you know the world isn't you know just and fair like it should be that doesn't mean that you can't still have a good life. You just, unfortunately, like you do say, we, yeah, and this is, I mean, I was told the same thing. I know you wrote this in your book, you know, you have to work twice as hard.

I was told that by my mom, be like, you're a woman. You have to work twice as hard as a man to get even 70% of what they get. And so, but like you also kind of sharing the book, it's not about working harder, smarter. Yeah. Absolutely. And that's the thing. Like, I mean, I was told the same thing, right? You know, we have to work twice as hard.

And that's the key, right? If you're going to have to work harder, if you have to do it. And, I mean, the stats show that marginalized people do. We have to work harder. If you have to do that, then at least do it in a way that preserves your well-being, right? Do it as smart as you can because other people don't have to worry about that at all. But if you're going to do it, then at least, you know, try to work it so you don't run yourself into the ground in the process. Mm-hmm.

I'm curious, what would be some of your tips, though, to set those healthy boundaries for you? Like, is it part recognizing when, like, when things keep on? kind of filtering into your personal life or, you know, how do you, because I feel like, honestly, for me, it really didn't hit me until I was like 30 to set any kind of workplace batteries. Oh, no. See, I mean, and I understand that. A quick story. Like, when I was back in tech, um, I was a project manager and we had a bunch of clients all over the world, you know, and we had one engineer who was like the guy for the thing. And he, we would always call him. I mean, I feel awful looking back at it because we would call him.

in the middle of the night and say, okay, pack a bag, you have to go to Denver because that's where the facility for this client is and they need you there by morning. Wow. Oh, my gosh. And he would do it. And he would do it. And he did it so many times

that his health started to falter. His marriage almost, like he almost got a divorce, right? And, I mean, there was a point where we all, he was ready to do it because he thought he had to. And it took the rest of us to kind of look at each other

and stop and say, we can't do this to him. We can't, you know? And luckily, we did, and he eventually kind of came around as well and asserted his own boundaries. But to me, I look back at that because that was something happened in my 20s, and I was just like, I don't ever want to be that guy. Like, I would love to be the guy who is the lynchpin holding everything together, but you can't do that at the cost of yourself, right? So I tell people often, one, to learn how to say no and not just say no, like, oh, I can't work on that, but to say no and or no but, right?

No, and I'll take a look and see if I can work on it later. Or no, but if you can get X, Y, Z off my plate, I should have the bandwidth to work on it, right? And to be fearless about having those conversations with your manager as well, because your manager is supposed to be the person to help you balance and priorities. your workload. And they're usually not because we don't promote people because they know how to manage others. We promote people because they're good at a thing. So we assume they must be good at managing people who do the thing. And that's never true. Never. Never. So it's up to us to manage our plate in that regard and be able to say to other people, hey, I'm full up right now. I would love to work on this for you, but I'm just capped out. Right. And then that puts it back on the person who's

asking you for help. Because if they really do need your skill set, if they really do need you particularly, then let them go to their boss or their boss's boss or your boss and say, hey, I really need so-and-so's help with this. It would be really helpful if you could free up some of their bandwidth for me. And as a project manager, that was my job, right? I had to get results from people who didn't report to me. So I had to go to them and go to their bosses and say, hey, I'm not trying to get them in trouble. I just need their help. And so, and I think that's really helpful for individuals to do as well. And keeping track, again, this goes back to the work diary, right? But keeping track of everything you're working on. So at any point, you can run off

a list of all the things you have, all the plates you have spinning, all the balls you have in the air, all the, all the euphemisms you want to use to describe work. And you can say, this is what I do, right? You always have an answer if somebody says, what are you working on? Like, oh, I, I can tell you what I'm working on. I'm working on this and that and that and that. And that puts you in the position of saying, I'm busy. I'm valuable. I'm doing valuable, useful work. And if you need me for more, I can be available to you, but it's got to come at the expense of something else. Not my personal time, not my weekends, not my nights, you know, not the morning before I wake up when you're trying to schedule me for a 6 a.m. meeting or something, you know, it's none of those

things. And it gives you the power to protect yourself a little bit more. And the one thing that's just like listening to our conversation, why I think this is so important for everyone to understand and then embrace and then actually activate is because if we all do this, all of us in March-Lize groups, if we all do this, that is, I think, how we get that big change. It'll obviously take time. But I think that's the thing. It's like if we don't do anything, if we just keep the status quo and keep our mouths shut because we don't want to rock the bone. I don't want to look aggressive or I don't want to be, you know, the BITCHH in the office or whatever, then nothing's going to change. We're going to be, you know,

it's, you know, I hate every year. I'm like, it's 2020. How is this happening? I say this every year since like, you know, since I was in my 20s. It doesn't matter. It's like, yeah, the only way to see progress is if we can collectively start these small little things that will then have a compounded effect. And I really hope. And I do see this in younger generations. They are better. Like Gen Z, they are much better at vocalizing and advocating for themselves, which makes me so happy. And then part of the millennial bitter person inside me who had to deal with like the recession stuff is like, oh gosh, it's so annoying that I had to deal with all this crap and they don't. But I'm also very happy that they don't, but also I'm better. Yeah, exactly. That 100%. And

That's why I wrote the book. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. So they can like activate this and then tell the younger generations and then hopefully this will, you know, yeah. Helps people. It's also catharsis for me. Yeah. Oh, my gosh. No, I can't wait to eventually have my own book and share some of it.

Doesn't it feel so good to let that out? But yeah, sometimes I just think of like, I have a three-year-old niece and I'm like, she's a, you know, she's a girl. And I'm like,

oh gosh, I really hope she does not have to deal with lost the crap that I dealt with when she eventually enters the workplace. That's always my kind of goal with sharing, you know, all the amazing information that you have on. this show and other guests, it's like, I hope that this crap is not, doesn't exist or as much, or there's just at least tools because there weren't any tools.

Exactly. That's the thing. Like, I mean, even if you do have to deal with it at some point because someplace never refuses to change, at least you'll be empowered to deal with it in a smart way or know when it's time to go because you can't deal with it anymore. Exactly. And I think, yeah, the other kind of important message you got from your book is like, it's not your fault and not necessarily your problem.

But a lot of the time, we blame ourselves. We absolutely do. Yeah, we absolutely do. Well, I know I could probably chat about your book all day long because I loved it so much. And I really recommend people check it out because so many people, I'm like, yeah, they'll read it and they'll see themselves in your words. So I really appreciate you writing it and being on the show to share about it. Where can people grab a copy and where can they find you if they want to follow you? Yeah, seen heard and paid.

It's wherever books are sold. I think it's on sale on Amazon and on bookshop. So, you know, whichever place you want to go buy it, go buy it. And you can follow me. Well, actually, all of my everything is at allan-hash-henry.net. So you can find my Twitter there. You can find my email address if you want to, if you want to shoot me a line. You can find my newsletter, productivity without privilege.

Ooh, I love that. Yeah, every other Tuesday. I think I have, oh, geez, that's right. I have to write one for tomorrow. So I'll do that right now. but but yeah so just head on over there you'll find out how to get in touch with me and do say hi because i do i do i bet you get a lot of after your books to come out so many emails from people right i mean maybe it's uh you know maybe some resources for the next one it's true and it's a lot

a lot of like what you just described people who are who are like hey this has been wonderful um i see myself in it and i'm like i'm so sorry you went through it but i'm glad you'm glad you have tools to deal with it now absolutely well thanks again for being on the show. It was a pleasure having you. Great. Thanks for having me. And that was my episode with Alan Henry, author of Seen, Heard, and Paid. Make sure to grab a copy. You can get it anywhere. And if you want to check out the original show notes for this episode, you can just go to Jessicamorehouse.com slash 337, 337. It will take you back to the show notes where you can learn a little bit more about Alan. Sign up to his newsletter called Productivity Without

Privilege. Grab a copy of his book. connect with him on LinkedIn or Instagram or Facebook, all that good stuff. So make sure to check that out and grab a copy of his really good book. And if you wanted to read what I wrote about, Alan, for my book, grab a copy of Everything But Money on bookshelves everywhere. Also, as we're, you know, getting into the holiday season and you're wondering, what should I get my friend or family member or coworker for our gift exchange? A book is always a great idea, especially one about your relationship with money. They are not going to expect that. It is a surprising gift to give and receive, but also one that can change their lives. So grab a copy of my book as well.

And you can also read about Allen in my book, Everything But Money. And yeah, so let me tease what's happening next week. You're going to absolutely love who I am on the show. Actually, very apropos kind of in line. Maybe this is, maybe I did this strategically. I'm going to have Anna Gifty Apoku Adjuman on the show. She is the author of The Double Tax. So we're kind of talking about this, but specifically from the lens of black women in the workplace, in the world, and kind of the double tax that they have to pay, not just the bank tax as a woman, but also being a person of color. And what that means for all of us, because there's a ripple effect, it affects every single person in the world. And so you're going to love her. She's an economist.

She has the numbers, the research, the data. It's a great episode. So join me next Wednesday for that. And of course, don't forget, I am giving away copies of all the books featured on this current season of the show. I'm giving away six different books. So enter to win at jessicamorehouse.com slash contest. That's where you can find that. And just a reminder, all new episodes of the More Money Podcast are available to also watch on my YouTube channel. So if you go to Jessicamorehouse.com slash YouTube, it'll redirect you right there or just going to YouTube and Google Jessica Morehouse.

And I'll pop right up there. I also have a lot of videos. I'm spending more time on YouTube. I'm very excited about it. So check me out on YouTube. And don't forget to follow me on Instagram at Just Guy Morehouse. There's also an Instagram for the podcast where I share clips of all the episodes and any kind of podcast news. You can follow the podcast at More Money Podcast. Well, that's it for me. Thanks so much for listening. I'll see you back here next Wednesday, right? And have a good rest of your week. See you then. podcast would not be possible without the amazing talents of podcast producer Matt Riteout, who you can find at m rav canada.com.