More Money Podcast - How to Rewrite Your Money Story So You Can Live an Abundant Life - Author of Unraveling Your Relationship with Money, Shannah Game

Episode Date: March 12, 2025

Is your money story holding you back? And are there other forces at play preventing you from achieving a sense of financial well-being and peace? I know so as does my guest Shannah Game, a Certified Financial Planner, Certified Trauma of Money Specialist, host of the Everyone's Talking Money podcast, and author of the new book Unraveling Your Relationship with Money. In this episode, we explore how identifying and overcoming your money trauma can help you start rewriting your money story, as well as other topics like the roles shame and fear play in your finances and practical strategies for building a healthier relationship with money.For full episode show notes visit jessicamoorhouse.com/424Follow meInstagram @jessicaimoorhouseThreads @jessicaimoorhouseTikTok @jessicaimoorhouseFacebook @jessicaimoorhouseYouTube @jessicamoorhouseLinkedIn - Jessica MoorhouseFinancial resourcesMy websiteMy bestselling book Everything but MoneyFree resource libraryBudget spreadsheetWealth Building Blueprint for Canadians course Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Doodoodoo and welcome back to the More Money Podcast. I'm your host Jessica Morehouse and I'm also the Globe and Mail Toronto star, Indigo, and Amazon bestselling author of Everything But Money, The Hidden Barriers Between You and Financial Freedom. And it feels darn good to say that. But this is not about me. This episode is all about Shanna Game, who has 20 years experience as a certified financial planner. She's also

a certified trauma of money specialist and has a new book coming out that is, really speaking my language, Unraveling Your Relationship with Money, Discover and Ditch Your Money Trauma So You Can Live an Abundant Life. And she's also the host of the Everyone's Talk in Money podcast with millions of downloads. And similar to me, she is on a mission to help women break free from shame and fear around money and to encourage them to build unapologetic wealth. And I honestly, it's funny that we me and Shannon are just connecting. We were connected by a mutual friend who also was a podcast. He's like, you need to have her on your show. You need to be on each other's shows. And we did do a podcast swap. So make sure to check out her podcast for that episode with me talking about my book. But we really were like working in parallel

and had no idea talking about money trauma and the psychology and behavior of money and coming from similar backgrounds, me as a financial counselor, her as a financial planner. And it's funny, I think I was on her show years ago, and I can't believe I hadn't had her on my show up until now, like a travesty. So I'm so excited to have her on the show to talk about her new book and for us to dive deep into some of these topics that we're very passionate about.

And we did a ton of research for, so you are going to absolutely love this episode. So without further ado, let's get to that interview. Welcome Shanna to the More Money Podcast. Thanks for coming. I can't believe that you haven't been on the show. I thought that was my bad. I thought you had been on the show years ago and I think I just thought about it.

Never invited you. But now we have a reason for you to come on the show. An amazing reason. You have a reason for you to come on the show, an amazing reason. You have a book coming out very soon. Congratulations. Very exciting. It's called Unraveling Your Relationship with Money, Discover and Ditch Your Money Trauma So You Can Live an Abundant Life.

Sounds very, very familiar. Topic's very familiar to me, so I'm so excited to dive right in. Before we get going though, you mentioned in your book, in your bio, you have over 20 years of experience in personal finance and financial management. You're a certified financial planner. And we also both did the Tromba of Money program, which is really interesting. Makes a lot of sense why we both did that program. I think we were interested in the research and the information for our own books, which is amazing. But, and you also, of course, are a podcaster, which is amazing. Everyone's talking money. Tell me a little bit, you know, give me a little idea

of how you got started. You've been doing this for so long. What initially got you into this world? And then eventually got you to a point where you're like, I need to write a book, but I need to write this particular book. It's interesting because my path, probably like most people's path, is super windy. If you would have asked me in my teenagers, oh, you're going to be a money expert with a podcast and a book, I would be like, that's funny. That's funny. Yeah. No one dreams of that as a child. No. I started my first business actually when I was in college. It was one of the first student national student film festivals. I ran that for five years. I kind of called

that my real life MBA because I had to balance a whole bunch of stuff and ended up selling that. I was getting a master's in business at the time and I was like, well, I don't know what to do with all these weird skills. My dad had been in the financial industry his whole career and had a small firm and he was like, well, I'm kind of bored. Why don't you come work with me? I'm like, really? Okay. I mean, I think I'm a little bit more creative than that, but all right. But it was really interesting because from day one, we were working with people who had a lot of money and I could see the similarities between them and my cohorts that knew nothing about money, that everybody had sort of the same hangups. We were just dealing with different zeros in the bank account.

That became really fascinating and interesting to me and I had no idea quite what to do with that. But I started speaking and writing and doing all the things that I love to do around money, realizing that most of us don't have that financial literacy education. Then I taught for 10 years at a university in Los Angeles. And on a whim in actually 10 years ago, almost to this day, a student said to me, you should start a podcast. And I was like, really? And they're like, oh yeah, don't do YouTube, start a podcast. And that was like on a Friday. And on Monday, I had my first episode up.

What? That's quick. And then like two weeks later, it was like number two of all podcasts above like Rachel Maddow and all these people. I'm like, what is happening? Like who is tuning in to hear me babble about money? I have no idea what I'm doing.

Yeah. And so, you know, that's been like a 10 year really interesting journey of figuring out like, oh, this could actually be a career. Oh, I don't have to do the traditional sort of finance background and way of doing things. So I guess my entire career, I've been essentially writing this book. So when I sat down to write it, it actually came out in like two to three months pretty easily for me. Oh, really? That's quick. But I think it's because I've been really thinking about this topic. And when I did

work with clients, it was more from a therapeutic perspective without me knowing that that's really what was happening. And the math was just like, oh, the math just comes after we dig and we get to these emotions, we figure out these blockades. So that's really what was sort of the genesis of writing this book. I always knew that I didn't want to write a traditional personal finance book, a lot about what you talk about in your book. There are plenty of amazing books out there. I didn't want to be another one of those that kind of got lost in the crowd. I wanted to really talk about what

felt real to me. That was this crazy thing we call relationship with money. Now, I'm curious because you have seen probably so many different people's finances. And you mentioned that you've seen a lot of connections between people who had a lot of money and not a lot, and they were dealing with similar things. What were some of those things that, wow, they're touching both people at different income levels. That's fascinating. What were some of those commonalities? I think a lot of it ultimately deals with the emotions, emotions that you talk about a lot too, the shame and the judgment and the guilt and the fear. But there's also this level of feeling like you have to keep things secret, right?

That if you talk about, I made a mistake, that that puts you in this category around money where you're shunned, right? No matter how much money you have. So for a lot of people, it was like, okay, I'm just going to juggle everything that I have. And on the outside, look real pretty and buttoned up and have the cars and the houses and the watches and all of those sorts of things. But really under the hood are these deep emotions that for, I would argue all of us go back to childhood, what we saw or didn't see, heard or didn't hear around money and how those became unconsciously cemented in us. They're very difficult to understand that, oh, that's what's popping up. Oh, that's what I'm coming up against. I think it's really these emotions

that we want to hide, that we don't want to showcase to other people because that then equates to us either not knowing what we're doing or that we're making a mistake around this thing called money. For most people that I've worked with, that is pretty much the ultimate driving fear that they have is that they would look like a failure, particularly around these topics. I would say even for people who I worked with who made, I would say north of a million dollars, that was essentially at the key. What would people think of me if I messed up my credit score or I didn't know what I was doing or I was just spending money recklessly? So, you know, it just became years and years of people like stacking up these feelings

around money and usually would get to the point where it was just ready to erupt. And I just happened to be there for those eruption moments. And that's really where these skills come in, like you and I both have, of having these conversations and asking questions that a lot of people have felt super nervous to even confront themselves. And I mean, it just goes to show how probably great and why you were successful in that realm. I bet lots of people were looking for someone like you who actually wanted to listen,

to actually want to ask those questions. Because I think the reason that we probably both wrote these books is because we encounter so many people who want someone to talk to. And if you're looking for just a general financial planner, I'm sure we've all encountered some of those people, they're just going to talk to you about the numbers. They may not listen. They may not read the cues, the physical cues, or the things that you're not saying, but they should maybe pick up on the vibe going on because money is more than just the numbers. But there's not really that integration in lots of just how lots of firms work with their financial planners.

They're just like, okay, this is what you got to do. It's a fine, it's an always a financial problem. And so that's what I think our books are definitely doing is trying to bridge that gap because no one's, no one's bridging it. And, you know, I get a lot of people I'm sure you do too, being like, hey, I need some help with this. Who do I talk to? And I'm like, unfortunately, it's two different people. It's two different people because there's not that integration yet. But I think I predict it will become more essential, especially too, as we see a lot more automation and AI integration into financial planning where, okay, what's something that AI cannot do?

Feel feelings. So maybe that's what the future role of financial planners can be is really to be that human aspect that so many clients are just desperate for. Now, I know in your book, it's just so funny, just looking at some of the chapters, I'm like, we were doing the same thing and he had no idea and I absolutely love it. But reading your book, we really broke it down in different ways. And I think that's what was really exciting is there's just so much to go through and so many different avenues and exercises and stuff in your book as well. But you talk about, I like this, would you date your money?

And I was looking at that chapter, I'm like, what an interesting question. I mean, now I would, but back like, what an interesting question. I mean, now I would, but back then, before I wrote my book and really did some introspection, absolutely not. Why did you phrase it that way? And is that a common thing to kind of kickstart a certain conversation you'd have with people is would you date with money? And let's unpack that. Yeah, it is because I'm always looking for ways that this weird thing called money can feel more experiential or can feel more like somebody can wrap their brains around it. When I talk about it from the perspective of, yeah, would you date your money?

We tend to have money be this voice that's negative, that's always telling us what we've done wrong, that's judging us, that's shaming us. We don't want to speak up in relationships because of it. We don't want to look bad for our friends. There are all of these just terrible negative voices that come through, let alone trauma or what we've experienced. And so thinking about it from the perspective of, would you be in a relationship with someone who did those sort of things to you? My hope is that your answer would be like, no. Absolutely not want that.

All right, go to therapy or try to figure out how to fix that. But we let this relationship with money that's usually negative continue on for a great deal of time and we sort of sit in silence with this, not realizing that just like you've shared in your book, there's an option, there's a choice. I think anytime we can, for me, what's fun working with people is when we can take money and turn it into almost this thing we can imagine, it's almost easier to approach it from that perspective and look at like, oh, okay, so here are some of the beliefs that I've had or here are some of the sticky points like, oh, I can see it now. And then we kind of internalize it and apply it back within ourselves and ultimately the actions that we take around money.

Yeah. No, I just thought it was just a really great way of framing it because definitely my relationship was in a way where if that, I would never allow a partner to speak to myself like that. So why am I allowing my kind of financial inner critic to do the same being like, you should earn more or you're not good enough. You're like, I would never let a human talk to me like that. Why on earth would I let myself talk to me like that? And I think that's such an important thing for you to frame it, because when you have that voice that has just been there for so long and it's been so aggressive and so loud for years, it feels familiar, comfortable, and normal. But it's not. Hence why we need to really understand a relationship with money and unravel

it because I think so many of us have a toxic relationship with money, but are not aware of it. Because we just think everyone has this type of relationship with money, right? Until you encounter someone with a very secure attachment to money, and you're like, oh, well, maybe, maybe I need to have to do some work. And you also talk about trauma, which I love. I'm curious, what kind of things did you get? Because we both did the same program, Trauma of Money. I did it at a certain phase of me writing the book.

When did you take that program? What did you take away from it that kind of like, oh, that's interesting. That's something I want to explore with readers. I went through it before I wrote the book. And for me, it was really like connecting the dots of what I experienced with humans. And it gave me like a greater perspective for... I mean, my personal belief is that we all have some form of trauma around money, whether we're willing to acknowledge that or not. And I've seen that played out in real life. So, it's hard to argue that point with me, but I think when we're talking about trauma, that word feels so heavy for

some people that it's hard for them to place themselves because that feels like another projection of doing things wrong. Yeah. Not being- If I don't admit my trauma, then I don't have to admit that there is a problem. 1000%. And I don't have to be labeled in that place. But really what I take away from all of the research and education around trauma, it's really just the ickyness, right?

The icky feelings you feel around money. If you look at your bank account and you feel like, my heart's racing and my palms are getting sweaty, those are your clues that, okay, there's something going on there that you might want to investigate. So if that word trauma feels too big, just think about what are those areas around money where you start to feel like a somatic, a bodily response, and that's just kind of like the red flashing light of, okay, something's going on here. You don't have to label it as trauma if that feels difficult, but those are the places worth examining. So I think the whole program just gave me a little bit of a better vocabulary for what I had already been witnessing with people and their money situation.

For me, I've always been particularly interested in the places that people get stuck. I can give you a 50 page financial plan. That's very easy. We can plug it in a calculator online. That's no big deal. But most people don't execute on that. And it's like, why? And they come back and think the plan is broken. No, no, the plan's fine. The numbers are actually fine. It's all the other stuff that the plan doesn't account for. So money trauma for me and getting that education helped me really refine those little places that people just constantly get stuck or they slingshot one way or another and then come back to this

place because our brains are lazy. They're comfortable. Even if it's a negative experience like debt, it's what we know and so it's easy for us to get back to this place. 100%. Yeah, no, I saw that a lot with a client side work with where they would become debt free and then get back into debt and it's because that's the only thing that they know. And it's just like a comfortable thing. And so, even though they know they don't want to be in that place, but it's fascinating. I'm curious when you were either working with clients or just doing some research for this book, what were some of those kind of common things that were holding people back in terms of their trauma that you're like, for example, I mean, I love how you kind of

described that a lot of people will blame the tool or the plan or the software or this budget just isn't working. I need a different type of budget. And you're like the thing is there's basically one type of budget. They all look a bit different, but they're all pretty much doing the same thing. The thing works. It's huge. You think the hard part with people is they have a hard part admitting

that there's something wrong, there's something going on? And I'm not of the belief that there's anything wrong with you, but something, I talk about in my book, something happened to you and we did kind of dissect what happened. So I'm curious, yeah, from your kind of research or conversations, what were some things that you kept on being like, oh, yeah, from your kind of research or conversations, what were some things that you kept on being like, oh, interesting. A lot of people do that. I think there's this disassociation that a lot of us have with money where it's almost like, well, that's not me. I'm not doing that. You know, I worked with a couple who, I wrote about them in the book and they

wanted to buy a house and they made really good money and they lived in a rent controlled apartment and there should be no reason why they shouldn't have saved a down payment. And when I went to work with them, I'm like, okay, do you have a budget or a spending plan in there? They handed me this wrinkled piece of paper and they were like, here, how old is this? Oh, I don't know, a couple years old. I'm like, okay. So, I scrubbed through their bank statements and categorized everything. And there were some really interesting things. And when I'm going to share from the story, you're probably listening going, no, that's not possible, but this is the disassociation part. So,

they love to go out to eat and they love to treat their friends to dinner. And they wrote on this wrinkled sheet of paper that they were spending $400 a month eating out. In actuality, they were spending between $3,000 and $4,000 a month eating out. And- Big difference. The person on the other side goes, well, that's crazy. How could they not know that was happening? person on the other side goes, well, that's crazy. How could they not know that was happening? But we disassociate from the reality. And when I showed them, they were like, oh my gosh, is that how much we're spending? They're swiping their card every single time. And probably doing the mental math like, oh, that was like a couple hundred bucks instead of like, no, that was like a couple hundred bucks. Instead of like, no, that's a thousand. Exactly.

And so when they kind of connected these dots, it was like, okay, well now you have a choice. You could keep going this way, which would be fine if you wanted to, or you have the option to change. So when they started to realize why they were doing this, why they were spending so much, and that what really they wanted was to buy this house. Within six months, they had enough money to purchase the house, but I think we tend to separate from ourselves some of these things. It's almost like they're outside of us.

We don't have to pay attention to them. That can't possibly be the issue at hand. For them, the reason they wanted to spend so much money was they felt like because they made good money in their career, that they owed it to their friends to treat them to all these dinners, which goes back to their money stories. They both grew up without a lot of money and they went without. So it's like we can trace it all the way back, but it starts from this kind of like aha moment. And that's what I find with most people is this disassociation until I'm literally like putting some evidence in front of them and saying, okay, let's peel the onion skin back and let's look at where this actually comes from.

That's fascinating. It's almost like you've got to find out first what's the issue and the issue that you may not see in front of you, but I can see clearly. Why are you doing that? And let's go ask why a few more times until we get to probably childhood to be like, oh, this is what happened. You were trying to make up for something that you lacked in childhood and you don't even realize you're doing it and you don't even realize how this might be harming you and preventing you from being in a better financial place. Yeah, that's so fascinating. And what a great kind of way to, again, explain that disassociation because that is a common kind of a self-protective

mode when you are dealing with trauma is to just separate from yourself because you're like, yeah, it's too painful. So we need to just get out of it. That's so fascinating. You of course also talk about your money identity. Now, when it comes to our money, we really do have a hard time separating our personal identity from our money identity. How much we have, how much we earn,

what did we do that was good? What kind of money mistakes have we made? Why is it so important for people to really understand what their money identity is? And is there a better way to connect with money? Because it is very difficult, especially in a capitalist society, to not think about your personal worth in association with your net worth.

Yeah, that's been my personal struggle my whole life has been associating self-worth with net worth. That whatever was in my bank account equals how good I am as a person. And gosh, that's taken me so many years too. It's going to be a lifelong journey, really honestly, to dismantle that if I'm being absolutely truthful. I feel like, gosh, think about how people could show up in a truly authentic way if those two things were no longer connected. I know that's a very lofty dream because, yeah, we live in a society where obviously we need money and money separates us.

It separates people. It separates cultures. I mean, it just is that thing. It's turned into that thing. So that's a very difficult thing to do to separate those two. But I think there's freedom when you can look at your strengths around money. What are the things that you do really well? Also then, okay, what are some of my blind spots? Not look at them as weaknesses. They're just

blind spots. We all have them. There are plenty of people and resources and books and podcasts out there to help you with those blind spots, but what are the strengths that we could start playing towards? What are those strengths that we could start playing towards? What are those things that we could develop more? Like, oh, I'm really good at this. I think that the more that we can separate who we are as human beings from what's in the bank account, my hope is that we start to be able to show up more authentically as ourselves and not feel like we have to put on a mask and be some other version. And that's something I did for years. I mean, in social circles, oh, I got this new car or this house or this thing. And then constantly

comparing myself against them, oh, they've got this and they're doing that, then I must be lesser than them. And I'm just like, gosh, how much time, space, anxiety, energy have I accumulated over the years just wasted on these thoughts that have not been helpful for me at all and stop me from making any progress. I want people to be able to get there quicker and to not have to deal with some of that. That's also just, again, a great way to think about it. Too often, I think, especially just like financial advice, especially the traditional stuff is focused on what you're not doing, what you're doing wrong, what you need to fix because there's a problem and you're the problem. But why don't we come from a place or start from a place where we

take a look at what are we doing right? Because if you're alive right now, you're doing something right. You know, you figured out how to survive until today. So you're doing props for you. You're doing something right. And what are some skills until today. So you're doing props for you, you're doing something right. And what are some skills that you have that you're probably not giving yourself any credit for? So many people, I'm sure you hear this all the time, I'm bad with money, I'm bad at money, I'm bad. But they're really not paying any attention

to what they're doing well, which is, well, you actually were able to pay all your bills on time. You should give yourself a pat on the back. That's not easy to do, to keep up with that every single month, every cycle. So we really need to pay attention to what are you doing right? And then instead of looking at it as what are you doing wrong is what can we improve on? Always some room for improvement, right? That's an opportunity. I like that. That's not a problem.

I feel like, you know, as society, we're set up to look at money from that negative perspective, right? You're in Canada, I'm in the States, and I don't know about where you are, but I could count how many commercials are about, you know, you're far behind with money, you're not making the right choices. And it's just we're inundated by these messages. And then there's some loud voices in this space who come at things from a very negative perspective. And so you just are frozen in that belief system.

I know why they don't do the other thing because it doesn't sell. Happiness around money doesn't get us into more credit card debt. No. That's why the news is negative. News that's negative gets your attention. News about all the things that are going well in the world, not as exciting. It doesn't get the adrenaline going, so I get it. But yeah, it's tough when the loudest voices

are using modes of shame or just putting people down to get eyeballs on them. And then people think that, well, that's what financial advice looks like. And you're like, it doesn't have to though. It really doesn't. There are some great voices like you and me that try to come from a place of taking care of people

and just being a little softer. Cause I'm sure too, we've also like, when I was in my twenties learning about this stuff, those were the voices I gravitated towards cause they were the loudest. And I had to really do some work on myself to unlearn a lot of those feelings and lessons cause they were really unhealthy.

I was so hard on myself for struggling as a 20-year-old. No kidding. Who wasn't? We just got to be nicer to ourselves. I agree. I always say just get some blinders. Put up some mental blinders because I mean, I don't know about anybody listening to this, but I just refuse to live any longer being so anxious, so fearful about money. It affects everything, relationships, sleep, career. You can't think. I mean, you just can't think when you're in a constant place of kind of fight or flight around this

topic. For me, it's just been a struggle of like, I'm not doing this anymore. There's got to be a better way. I don't care who's yelling at me for doing whatever. I'm not listening to you any longer. Yeah. Well, that's a great question is then how does one put those blinders on? How do you silence the noise?

There's also a couple of different issues at play too. We're dealing with a financial issue where it's like, I'm worried about money because I'm really worried. The money's not there. Or it could be the other side, I'm worried about money and I shouldn't be, but I still am because the money is there. The numbers are there. Everything's fine.

Why do I feel so bad? I think a lot of it is this awareness that we talk about in both of our books of diving into some of these topics like money story, like what you learned, the trauma angle, the experiences that you've had around money, the good and the not so good, to have this awareness of like, oh, what happened there? How is that impacting me, I think is really important. But I also think, particularly from women, I hear this a lot, a version of they'll never be enough or my fear is they're never enough.

I understand that. I really do. I probably held onto that for quite some time, but I think we don't spend a lot of time thinking about what does enough look for us? What values do we have around money? Until we recognize what that is, there will never be enough because we'll never reach that place. It's really important, what do I want this thing to look like? Thinking about your values, thinking

about aligning your spending with the goals that you have and not looking at it from a place of budgeting, like it's trying to tell me what to do or lack, that goes really far to helping you put up those blinders. It's not going to be 100% science. So don't even attempt for that. Go for like a 60-40, right? 60% of the time you got the blinders up, 40% of the time it's just all over the place. And recognize that we're humans. We're going to overspend. We're going to make choices that don't make sense. That's okay. But if we know generally the direction we're trying to go in, that's going to help us quiet the noise of all those other voices, which is just information that doesn't apply to us. Yeah. Talking about enoughness, is that a number or how does one know when,

what should they define as enough? And I think on the other side of it, when you are able to reach that enough point, whatever that means, I think that's also a difficult experience because you've been working towards this goal. And I think this is for any kind of goal, the feeling of what now, because we're always supposed to be doing something.

You know, we never talk about what happens when you finish the race, because we're always supposed to be doing something. You know, we never talk about what happens when you finish the race, because we're always supposed to be on this race until we die. So I'm curious what your thoughts are on, how does one define enoughness and what do you do when you get to that point? I think the start to defining enoughness

has to not include any numbers. It has to be about, you know, where are you living, what are you doing, what are you doing for fun, who's in your life, what hobbies do you have. Thinking about it from the whole person perspective, I think you have to go there first and have that vision. Then you can bring the numbers in like, okay, so what is the number that helps me do all of these things? I think the latter of what you're talking about is a lot of what people in the fire community experience, right? They get to this goal and then they're like, well, I've been so conditioned to get here.

So that's where if we've not done the emotional work around money, we then slingshot back to maybe overspending or making some sort of decision where we have to go back to the place where now we're saving again for this goal. Yeah, it's like, hmm, two million isn't enough. Four. Right. Now we got to do four. Six.

Now we got to do more. You're like, great. Yeah, so it just defeats the purpose. So I think that's why we have to look at this idea of enoughness from a different perspective and not have the numbers there. Obviously, the numbers are coming to play. That's part of this. But if we can't define what it looks like without that piece, then we're always going to be in this chronic chase for that number and the number is just going to keep getting higher and higher because we're never

going to be happy when we reach those, you know, those levels. No, I, yeah, it's funny because yeah, that's definitely something I, you know, part of the reason I got into my book is what I realized about myself. I didn't have my own definition of enough, which is probably why I never felt like I had enough. I was good enough. There was no enough involved in my life, but it's even in other areas I've been trying to apply this kind of mindset to other things when, for example, like my book coming out, I talked to a lot of author friends. They're like, just so you know, it's pretty normal after your book comes out to get a little depressed because you reach this goal after working towards it for a couple years or whatever and then it's done. And then everyone goes away and it's quiet again.

And your natural inclination is to do another book and just keep it going. But I'm like, oh gosh, number one, I could not imagine writing another book right away. But I want to, I'm like, I need to learn how to savor things. So I think that's kind of what you're talking about is you need to stop focusing on the end point or what you're going to reach, but actually as cheesy as it is, you've got to enjoy the journey. You really do. And we are really bad at it because no one talks about it. It's really like, like when you watch a movie, it's even if it's like a road trip movie, the whole point is getting to a destination.

And it's only in retrospect that maybe they're like, oh, that was a good journey, but you don't really enjoy the journey until it's over. It's really fascinating that you bring this up because just before our conversation, I had a therapy session and I was talking about this, how yesterday, for example, I got my box of books and opened the box and I was like, okay, there are the books. My husband's like, what's wrong with you? Like there are your books. I felt the same way, by the way.

Okay, good. Okay, good. You're not the only one. I opened it. I was kind of disappointed. I know. I'm so sorry. Not because it's like I knew what to expect, but I was just like, that's it.

Right, there should be like confetti. He was like, shouldn't you be excited? And you're like, I'm not. And I'll tell you, there's some other authors I've talked to recently who felt the same thing. Okay, good. So I do not feel so alone in my therapeutic journey here. But I think that's the same thing around money, you know?

And what I was really talking about was, how can I find those moments to celebrate, even if it's something really small, like I go have an ice cream or I put on my favorite song or something to just trigger my body and my brain to say it's okay to celebrate this milestone. And I think no matter who's listening, if you're on a journey to pay off debt, celebrate the first $100 that you pay off.

Yeah. Don't wait until it's all paid off, which may take you two years. Right. Because then you're, wait, two years is a long freaking time. It's a long time. Celebrate along the journey because that's hard. Every step of the way is hard. Yes. Okay. So now we need to set up a book author support group. Yeah. Yeah.

No, it's, yeah, I'll give you some tips after we record this. Let me tell you what you should do to kind of maximize the joy. Because again, you should be so proud and so excited for this book because it's a great book. We're not quite done talking, so don't go away yet. But we've talked about the enoughness and we've talked about recognizing maybe your unhealthy relationship with money. What are some practical things that people can do to start shifting it into a healthier relationship? Like what are some tips and tricks exactly, but what are some things that maybe you haven't

thought about doing this and this may make all the difference? I have developed this over the years, these very interesting exercises. I have collections of them, just depends on the type of person. I talk about a lot of them in the book, but I would say like three of my favorites. One is an exercise called financial forgiveness. It's very simple. It's a blank sheet of paper. Set a timer on your phone for 10 minutes. Write without judgment every single thing that you hate about money that you wish you would have done, a mistake, get it all out. Walk away from that piece of paper for 24 hours, come back, take a read through.

It sounds like it's going to come back, take a read through. It sounds like it's going to be a hard thing to read later. It's going to be a hard thing to read later, but the next step is to release it. Burn it, shred it, tear it up. Burn it? Burn it. I'm a burn it girl. Yeah. There is a lot of scientific research behind getting something on paper, handwriting it, and then giving your brain some time to just relax, come back to it, and releasing it in some form or fashion. It doesn't, of course, get rid of those things. But what you're trying to do is tell your body and your brain, like, hey, we don't have

to hold onto this any longer. We can actually move forward. Another exercise I like a lot is if somebody is listening and they're a journaler, I've got two for you. We're talking all about our money story, right? Those are things that happened in the past. I like to ask people to write their money hero story. So what is the version of you going forward?

Put your cape on. Imagine your life. Imagine the enoughness. Imagine your relationship with money and write out the narrative of what you want it to be going forward because until you can get that out, you can't visualize that process. Then the last one is something I call a hate money letter, and I do this personally. I have a blank journal, I put it by my bed, and every night before I go to bed, I write hey money, and then I night before I go to bed, I write, hey money.

And then I write whatever I want to money. I love you, I hate you, you suck. Here was my interaction with you today. Whatever, I'm grateful for this. Whatever comes out, I just write it down. I don't ever review these, but it's this act of just getting the gunk out of you onto paper. Great, now I can go to sleep and I don't have to

wake up at 2 a.m. in the morning thinking about something. So that one has been one of the biggest game changers for me. I love that, especially at night because you hear all the stats, this amount of people are up at night or they can't get to sleep because of all of their money worries. And I get that, what I worried about, whatever, it's in my head. Like you just cannot get it out. And then you're waking up at five in the morning, you're like, I'm still not asleep.

So having that practice, but I think what's so amazing about all those exercises you just said is there's something tangible. There's something physical about it because again, you can't, I don't believe you can't just let things go because you're thinking I'm going to let it go. Now it's gone. It's like you've got to have some sort of action to just tell your body that we're also letting it go. Something physical to remind, because you're probably familiar with it or whatever, but me and my husband, not joke, but we like say it all the time when something's like

so obviously about like, this is something about you or your past. You're like, oh, the body keeps the score. Like the body knows, man, the body knows. It's true. It's so, it will tell you when you're feeling a certain way or when something's in there that you need to get out. And so by having some sort of practice where you let your thoughts out on paper or you just get it out physically, you yell whatever. It really does. Your body then pays attention and then your mind pays attention. And that's why I think there's all of these movements around manifestation, which is great. That's a visualization process, but we've got to pair it with what you're saying, like some sort of action in order

for our brain and body to be like, oh yeah, okay, we're doing something different. We can't just think our way out of a problem. We have to really pair it with something that we're doing. Since you mentioned therapy, and I know that's something that's so important in my life. I go to therapy and I'm an advocate for everyone to go to therapy. Is that something that you typically suggest that people look into? What can people gain out of adding that to their financial healing journey. Yeah, absolutely.

I'm a huge fan of therapy. There are a lot of great money therapists out there now, but you can certainly go to just a general therapist. But I would look for someone who's used to dealing with trauma, some level of trauma, and some of these real big heavy emotions like the shame, the fear, the anxiety around money. Because ultimately, we both know this, it ultimately isn't about the money. There's something else that is going on.

There's something else that you experienced or you're not able to live out the life that you want because of X, Y, or Z. There's something more to the foundation than just money. I think therapy can do a great job of helping you recognize that. One of the therapeutic models that I currently am exploring with my therapist is something called IFS, which is- Oh my gosh, you're speaking my language. Total family systems. Yeah, I love IFS. It's been an internal family system. So understanding just from a real basic perspective that there's these different parts of us and these different parts come out and

the ones that are ingrained from childhood, which kind of then stem over to our relationship with money, those are really difficult to deal with. So I think therapy is just a great way to access what's really going on and how do we get down to that? So we can make decisions around money and actually work towards them and reach those goals. Absolutely. Well, I'm so excited that you have this book coming out because I think there needs to be way more books about these topics. Because as you know, especially as

a podcaster, who's probably interviewed so many people, there's not a lot of books out there that talk about these. There's a lot of amazing books, but there's just a lot of books about how to money, but not about the why money or the how did you get here with your money. And I think this is such an important thing that will really make a big impact on so many people where they just cannot figure out why am I not doing the thing I know I should be doing? I just can't figure out how to get out of my own way. And I think you offer so many great exercises and just things for people to really consider

to heal their relationship with money and even just understand you have a relationship with money and we need to talk about it. So thank you so much, Shanna, for coming on the show. Where can people grab a copy of your book, Unraveling Your Relationship with Money, Ditch Your Money Trauma So You Can Live an Abundant Life, and where can people find more information about you and your podcasts? Let me know. You can purchase my book everywhere books are available, or you can go to my website, everyonestalkandmoney.com slash book. I've got some great bonuses there if you buy it from there. And then also you can find me on any podcast player

you're listening to this episode right now. Everyone's Talkin' Money, we have over 1200 episodes. So there is something there for everyone. What? I feel like, like, is that like three times, that's literally three times? That's literally three times as many episodes. Damn.

It's a lot. Wow. And then I'm also active on Instagram. You can find me there as well. Amazing. Well, thank you so much coming for, let me try that again. Thank you so much for coming on the show, Shanna. It was a pleasure talking with you and just sharing your perspective and sharing your

book. I can't wait for people to check it out. Thank you so much for taking the time. Thanks for having me. And that was my episode with Shanna Game. Her new book is called Unraveling Your Relationship with Money. Discover and ditch your money trauma so you can live an abundant life. And you can grab your copy of Bookstores now or visit everyonestalkinmoney.com slash book. You can also check out her podcast called Everyone's Talkin' Money on any podcast platform

and make sure to give her a follow on Instagram at Shanna Game. And like I mentioned, I am going to be giving away a copy of Shanna's book. So if you want to enter to win, just go to JessicaMoorhouse.com slash contest and I will be updating that page as I get more authors on this show. And they have books that they have that I want to purchase to support them and then give away to you. So JessicaMoorhouse.com slash contest is where you can learn more about that. Now speaking about books, I have my own book, Everything About Money, and I am just very

excited about how it's been going. I've been getting some really amazing feedback and DMs and it's very exciting. And so in case you haven't checked it out, you may want to check it out. It's available everywhere. If you go to JessicaMoorhouse.com slash book, you may want to check it out. It's available everywhere. If you go to jessicamorehouse.com.com. You can find all the information you could possibly want about it, including links on where you can purchase it. You can also borrow it from your local library.

And if they don't have it, you can ask them to get it for you. They do that all the time. So make sure to do that. But if you want access to some of the kind of companion extras that I built specifically for the people who pre-ordered my book, but now I want to give access to anyone who wants it. Well, you could purchase it if you want, but if you want to access those for free, all you have to do, there's instructions on the JessicaMoorHouse.com.com. slash.book.page, but all you have to do is give me a rating or review on, you know, Goodreads or Instagram or Indigo or whatever

book site you want, and then you just submit like a screenshot to show me that you did it and then you get instant access to all of these extras. And the reason I'm doing that is an incentive for obviously you giving me a rating or review because those things are so, they are worth a lot to me because they help the algorithm know that people are interested in this book. They like it and it pushes my book up in the ranking so more people can discover it. Cause honestly, and I'm sure I've mentioned this on the show.

If not, I'm telling everyone in real life, I'm spending all of 2025 to push this book everywhere because I think it's such an important book that will help so many people. And I want to spread the word. So if you want to help me spread the word, that is one way to do it is just to give me a simple rating review. That would be amazing. Now, in case you're also wondering what are what's the latest on my book tour, the best

way because I am recording this in advance. So I don't know if I'm basically recording this a month in advance. So I don't know if, I'm basically recording this a month in advance. So I can't tell you right now what's going on, but you know how you will be able to stay in the loop? Getting on my email list, jessicamorehouse.com slash subscribe, or following me on Instagram. So that's at Jessica I. Morehouse, is where you can find me there.

And hopefully I will have added some more dates to my book tour. And yeah, I can't wait. Like, what a great, what a cool thing to be able to go to different Canadian cities and hang out with you, right? And don't you want to hang out with me? I'm pretty fun. I'm pretty fun. I always bring treats, okay? I always have food at all of my events. So that's some incentive, right? Don't you want a few little treats? I don't know. I go to events for food.

Anyways. Okay. Anyways. Anyways. Anyways. I've got a lot of amazing guests coming up on the show, so I can't wait to share those new interviews with you. So hang in tight.

And with that, I will be back here next week with another one of those interviews. So thanks so much for listening and I will see you soon.