Morning Joe - Civil rights icon Rev. Jesse Jackson dies at age 84

Episode Date: February 17, 2026

Civil rights icon Rev. Jesse Jackson dies at age 84 To listen to this show and other MS podcasts without ads, sign up for MS NOW Premium on Apple Podcasts. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

What are you expecting from these Iran talks in Geneva tomorrow? So I'll be involved in those talks indirectly, and they'll be very important. We'll see what can happen. President Xi had your talk with him recently, warned about sending more weapons to Taiwan. What was your response to him? Are you going to send more weapons to Taiwan? I have a response. I'm talking to him about it. We had a good conversation, and we'll make a determination pretty soon. You're going to have Ukraine talks tomorrow as well in Geneva. Geneva would quit call for Jericho.

What are you expecting there? Well, there are big talks. It's going to be very easy. I mean, it's look, so far, Ukraine better come to the table fast. That's all I'm telling you. President Trump covering a lot of ground on foreign policy last night

on board Air Force One. It comes as Geneva is hosting high-stakes meetings on Iran, as well as talks between Russia and Ukraine. We'll bring you the latest on all of that. Meanwhile, in Minnesota, the FBI continues to Stonewall State investigators who are seeking information and evidence in the killing of Alex Prattie will go through the ongoing fight for the investigation into the killings, both of them there. Plus, Hillary Clinton delivering her strongest criticism yet on the Epstein files, accusing the Trump administration of a cover-up.

We'll show you if President Trump had to say about the files and bring you the latest on that. Good morning and welcome to Morning, Joe. It is Tuesday, February 17th. Today is both Mardi Gras and Lunar New Year. Along with Joe, Willie and me, we have the co-host of The Rest Is Politics Podcast, the BBC's Caddy K, staff writer at the Atlantic, Frank Four, and host of Politics Nation on MS Now, Reverend Dall Sharpton. He is the president of the National Action Network. And we begin with breaking news, the Reverend.

Jesse Jackson has died. The 84-year-old civil rights activist Baptist minister and two-time presidential candidate passed away earlier this morning, according to a statement from his family and Rainbow Push. The Jackson family wrote, quote, Our father was a servant leader, not only to our family, but to the oppressed, the voiceless, and the overlooked around the world. His unwavering belief in justice, equality, and love uplifted millions, and we ask you to honor his memory by continuing the fight for the values he lived by. Jackson died peacefully, surrounded by his loved ones, no cause of death was given, Reverend Al, and that he had been ill for a while, but this moment very difficult, no matter what. Very difficult. He had been ill.

with Parkinson's and palsy for the last several years, it had continued to diminish. I would go every couple of months and see him. I went, especially we're going Christmas Day after we feed the home hungry here in New York. And my daughters and I went a few weeks ago. And he couldn't talk. He couldn't walk for the last several months. So at one level, you didn't want to see him suffer, but at another level, you're grappling with him passing.

His family called me in the middle of the night, said he had passed. We had prayer before they took his body out of the room where it was. I talked to his son Yusef and Jesse Jr. But I think people should realize Jesse Jackson helped change American politics. He changed civil rights. He brought proportional representation into the primary. Before him, you could win by two votes and you take all the delegates in the state. He changed that, which led to a primary.

Barack Obama being able to be nominated. He led to many changes. He kept Dr. King's dream going, and we have to keep his going. So I think that I've known him since my mother brought me to Operation Breadbasket through Reverend William Jones when I was 12 years old, and I've been around Reverend Jackson 59 years. So it's a long time, and we've gone through a lot together, and I'll miss him greatly. Rev, I'm so sorry for the loss of your friend this morning.

I appreciate you being here to talk about it. You mentioned his connection to Dr. King. I mean, he was there on the balcony of the Lorraine Motel on April 4th, 1968, when Dr. King was assassinated. Can you just talk about his place in the Reverend Jackson's place in the movement after that when it was looking for who was the leader now? When Reverend Jackson was the youngest person on staff and what a lot of people don't understand, Dr. King's organization, Southern Christian Leadership Conference, was a Southern Regional Organization. He went to Chicago and started dealing with urban issues to try and nationalize. And there he met a theologian, theology student, Reverend Jesse Jackson, who was in 26, 27. Reverend Jackson was the youngest member then later put on his staff a year later.

And he was about 12 years younger than Dr. King, so he was almost the next generation. So he used to always tease me and others, Mel McMorris, Raymond James Meeks, and others. and y'all are a generation behind me like I was Dr. King, and he would tell us stories of how he was being trained by Dr. King. So his job was as difficult as the job he, that preceded him, is to keep the Voting Rights Act in, because every five or six years you had to reenact it. It is now under threat.

To keep some of the wins of the civil rights movement of the 60s was to maintain it in the 70s and 80s and 90s, that was as difficult it was to get in the, first place, and he was the one that was out front doing him. You know, Reve, there may be a few people that remember now, but in 1986, he organized politically in a way that no civil rights leader had organized before and actually helped the Democrats do extremely well in the middle of Reaganism. and the Democrats had a huge win in 1986, and all fingers pointed towards Jesse Jackson's organization.

So he really knew politically how to organize, and that was followed up two years later by his own historic run for president. Talk about what that meant, not only to the civil rights movement, but to you, and eventually to Barack Obama, who would run successfully in 2008. He ran in 84, and in 84 he registered a lot of voters that led exactly to what you're talking about, Joe, in 86, the midterm elections at that time. These newly registered voters that had been energized by the Jackson 84 campaign came out in states that had not seen that kind of turnout and literally changed the Congress. So in 84, Jackson's run helped to put the Democrats in position in ADC. led on to 88 to 88 where he had the historic run. And I think that it was his historic run that was able to change proportional delegates in the convention. Had those rules not been changed, Barack Obama would not have been nominated some 20 years later because Hillary Clinton won in all the major states.

And she would have won to take all. The fact that he would get his proportion kept him in the running to where he would. was the nominee. What he meant to me personally, he taught me activism. He would tell me that preaching was not just having one church, is being able to deal with the issues of the world, and that was the kind of way he taught me. And he was definitely the most definitive teacher in my life, including he teased me, he used to do a show on CNN both sides. He said he was training me for Politics Nation. In 1988, he did well in the Democratic primary process.

He came second in the nominating campaign. Why didn't he run again? I mean, having done so well in 88, did he then just decide, actually, you know what I could do better outside of the strict political system and he was this kind of informal diplomat that he could have, and founding Rainbow Nation, did he feel he could just have more influence on American society

not in the traditional presidential running race structure? He basically was not a politician. He was one that saw politics as a means, not an end. And he saw himself fighting in the social policy arena. He had accumulated such influence that he used it to help what he wanted to see done in terms of social policy. We had started seeing the country go back through racial profiling and immigration rights even then and the rights of women. he felt he could be better with a broader context. And he was going global.

He went and got hostages that no one else could get out of Iraq. Out of Iraq, he came brought home hostages. He went and got Goodman out of Syria. And this had never been done in the Civil Rights Movement and never been done at that level. Jesse Jackson broke ground that no one had done. And then later politically, he and his wife, Jacqueline Jackson, who's been the rock of the family, the rock of the movement, unspoken but the rock. They were born and raised in the segregated South, and they put two of their sons in Congress.

So his political legacy, two of his sons, one is in Congress now, another one running, Jesse Jr. is running again for Congress. To have Jackie and Jesse Jackson born in segregation to put two sons in Congress in the span of their lifetime shows how far America has come, but how far we yet. need to go. And again, just a reminder meek of 1998 and what a significant campaign he had in 88 historically, following up on the history that was made in 86, Jackson came in second to Mike Dukakis, but beat out candidates' future Vice President Al Gore, future President Joe Biden and Dick Gaphart and many others.

of the New York Times was so impressed that he called 1988 the year of Jackson. So we and and obviously our thanks to him for all that he has done through the years for civil rights. And right now though our thoughts are with his family and loved ones, who obviously hurting about the loss of Jesse Jackson, as are millions of people across America today. And we have so much gratitude. We'll have much more on the life and legacy of Reverend Jesse Jackson throughout our four hours this morning.

And on the issue of civil rights, we have very big news to report to you this morning out of Minnesota. The Trump administration is formally denying state investigators access to evidence from the FBI's investigation into the killing of Alex Pretti. The move comes after White House border czar, Tom Homan recently announced the end of the surge of federal agents in Minneapolis, while also pledging to improve cooperation with city and state officials. 37-year-old Pretti was an ICU nurse.

It was fatally shot by federal agents in Minneapolis last month in broad daylight, and many would describe as an execution-style killing. The FBI noted the Minnesota Bureau of Criminal Apprehension last week that it would not share evidence from its investigation with the state. Additionally, the FBI said it would not share materials from the killings of Renee Good on January 7th. Or the shooting of Julio Sososolis on January 14th, in response, Democratic Governor Tim Walz, stressed the need for impartial investigations, stating, quote, Trump's left hand cannot investigate his right hand and Joe, given the fact that in two of these killings, at least Christy Noem immediately labeled these victims, domestic terrorists. In one case, Stephen Miller called Alex Pready, a would-be assassin,

this seems even more brazenly corrupt with the appearance of zero interest in accountability. Zero. Absolutely none. Frank, Frank, four, the feds came in, and these renegade agency heads who have been lying through their teeth from the very beginning have these agents who behaved like thugs behaved improperly. And that, of course, we heard that actually at a Senate hearing earlier this week from people in the department themselves, that they acted. in an extraordinarily and professional way, but they unprofessional way, but they come to Minnesota. They shoot and kill

at point blank range two American citizens, two Minnesota residents, and the administration is not allowing the state of Minnesota to investigate the killings. Some would say

the, well, they actually, they both were ruled homicides. the homicides of two Minnesota residents? I've never heard anything like this before in my life. I mean, remember, this is a hastily gathered force that's been erected by this administration almost overnight that's been deployed in service of squashing kind of an emergency that's been way overhyped. And they were told, ICE was told by the vice president of the United States, by the administration,

that they had immunity. And then we saw the consequences of what happened when they had this sense of immunity. We saw the way in which they terrorized populations in Minnesota, the way that they went to war with civilians who were activists who were just trying to bring some measure

of accountability to them. And now we have this shutdown that's happening over the department with the aim of Democrats trying to impose some reforms on the Department of Homeland Security that make them as accountable as the rest of American law enforcement. But all of these accountability measures are kind of empty without the possibility that when

rogue agents go off and do terrible things, or in this case, they may not even be rogue agents, when the agents go off and do terrible things to innocent people, that there should be some accountability for those agents. And now, you know, we're seeing that whatever promises that the administration makes about reform are completely. hollow. Yeah, and Rev, this administration likes to say it's the most transparent in history. Well, here's a chance to be transparent.

And they're doing just the opposite. The Minnesota Bureau of Criminal Apprehension, which is the organization inside Minnesota that would handle this has said this is unprecedented. You have federal agents killing one of their citizens in the state that it would not even be a question about sharing evidence. That's how the investigation works. And they're saying inside state officials that this is hampering their own investigation because the FBI is holding so much of the evidence that they

can't actually get, they think they know what happened, they've seen the videos, but they don't have all the evidence they need to bring it to trial. So this is clearly the federal government saying we have something to hide here, therefore we're not going to share all of our evidence with the state. Unquestionably, it certainly appears that they're hiding something. Because why would you interfere with a process that has never been interfered with, that the mutual cooperation helps an investigation. And the fact of the matter is that to break the norm in the first place, but then not to share, raises all kinds of suspicions while you're talking about being transparent. This is an absolute smack in the face of justice.

Yeah, and let's back up. They lost credibility, Joe, from the very beginning of both shootings of Renee Good and Alex Pretty. they first appeared to, and reporting shows, defamed the victim. Completely defamed the victim's name. Blamed the killing on the victim. Had people on the far right, echoing that, saying they brought it on themselves. The video and most normal people who have logic shows, that's not what happened.

So they defamed the victim, lied about it, and then denied. Defame, lied, denied. The investigation. to the state. You would think in a situation like this, if you wanted to create transparency, you would give the investigation back to the state where it should be to show that you are interested in true accountability. That is not what they're interested in here. And Minnesota, the state of Minnesota, once again, is getting stepped on by this administration so they can continue with their rampage across the state, which I don't believe is over.

Well, they don't appear to be interested in transparency because they're not interested in transparency. Christy Noem has been lying from the very beginning. When Renee Good was trying to peacefully leave, she got shot through her side window, through her brain. It went in one side and out the other. I believe the examiner determined that to be a homicide. The same with Alex Prattie, who, again, many people say it looks like he was shot execution style. But Mika, we have seen with our eyes what happened. There is video out there, and I am quite certain the state of Minnesota and other

States and cities, jurisdictions have brought cases against people with less evidence than we've already seen right now. I think the state of Minnesota, if they believe there are charges, they need the information that they have. And they have a lot of information. They have a lot of eyewitnesses. They have a lot of video. I think they need to go ahead and bring the charges and then go to a judge and have the

judge through the discovery process make the feds give up the evidence that they have because they do not have a legitimate cause that will stand up in court for covering up these two killings. In fact, that's really the only justification. They're going to have to go in front of a Minnesota judges and say, Your Honor, we at this time cannot turn the evidence of these two killings over to the state because we the federal government are actively involved in a cover up of their killings. That's really all they've got. So I think it's incumbent on the state of Minnesota to take all the evidence, all the eyewitnesses, all the video, all the angles, bring these charges, whatever charges they deem appropriate, and then get into the discovery process and make the

federal government give up that information that they have no legitimate reason to hold on to. No statute of limitations on murder. Reverend Della Sharpton. And again, Mika, I just have to say, and I do say this to ICE agents who are out there, who aren't sure what they got themselves into, that at times are overwhelmed out there and are seeing what's going on all around them, it's important for them to understand. There is a statute of limitations.

that last forever on some crimes. And the President of the United States cannot pardon you for crimes that are brought against you by the state of Minnesota or any other state. I think it's important to realize what I've been saying all along. There are people inside of administrations, and I talked about this yesterday in the newsletter, that think they were the first people to ever get in the White House and they're going to be there forever. That's just not the case. As Clark Clifford once said of the Kennedy administration after Vietnam and everything,

he said they acted as if history started when they walked into the White House. Well, you could say that about just about every administration you and I have seen. I say the same thing for these ICE agents who think that what's happening today, what's happening this month is forever. It is not. It is not. And if you do something that leads to serious injury or the death of somebody, justice will be served. And there is no one who can pardon you for crimes committed in the state of Minnesota or California or Georgia or Georgia. Georgia or South Carolina or any other state. It's a great point to reframe. Reverend R.V. Sharpton, thank you so much. We'll see you again at the top of the next hour of Morning Joe. And still ahead on Morning Joe, a pair of high stakes, diplomatic talks are taking place in Geneva, Switzerland today.

We'll talk about what to expect as administration officials take part in negotiations with Iran. We'll also talk about the war in Ukraine. and the comments by Secretary of State Marco Rubio praising Hungary's Victor Orban. And as we go to break, a look at the Travelers forecast this morning from Acuethers, Bernie Rayno. Bernie, how's it looking? Make a lot of clouds here this morning. So you know what? I'm going to have to do it.

The Raino fog corn. Low clouds and fog can cause some delays here this morning, New York City, Philadelphia, even Boston. But other than that, it's certainly not cold. The exclusive ACU weather forecast says temperatures in the 40s and 50s. Boy, look at the warm from Texas toward Florida. There will be some gusty winds, though, from Dallas toward Oklahoma City today. Major delays in California due to rain, but other than the low clouds and fog this morning, New York City, Philadelphia, around Detroit, the afternoon looks pretty good.

To help you make the best decisions and be more in the know, download the ACU weather app today. Two sets of high-stakes diplomatic negotiations taking place in Geneva, Switzerland today talks to end the war in Ukraine being held just a week before the fourth anniversary of Vladimir Putin's full-scale war. U.S. Special Envoy Steve Whitkoff and President Trump's son-in-law, Jared Kushner, will take part in those discussions, which come as Russia continues to launch missiles and drones into Ukrainian cities during the coldest months of winter, hitting civilian targets. Whitkoff and Kushner also will take part in indirect talks with Iran today. Iran has sent its foreign minister to negotiate there. This comes as the United States has built up a heavy military

presence in the Middle East to apply pressure to Iran. Last night aboard Air Force One, President Trump said he still believes Iran wants to make a deal. So I'll be involved in those talks indirectly and they'll be very important and we'll see what can happen. It's been typically, Iran's a very tough negotiators, they're good negotiators, or bad to go. I would say they're bad negotiators because We could have had a deal instead of sending the B-2s into knockout their nuclear potential. And we had to send the B-2s. I hope they're going to be more reasonable. They want to make a deal.

Have you been told that a deal is next to impossible? No. No, I think they want to make a deal. I don't think they want the consequences of not making a deal. They want to make a deal. Meanwhile, Secretary of State Marco Rubio is praising Hungary's Prime Minister Victor Orban after a high-profile meeting in Budapest. Rubio met yesterday with Orban

highlighting what he called the close personal ties between Orban and President Trump signaling strong White House backing ahead of Hungary's closely contested April elections. I can say to you with confidence that President Trump is deeply committed to your success

because your success is our success because this relationship we have here in Central Europe through you is so essential. and vital for our national interests in the years to come. That, you know, if you face financial struggles, if you face things that are impediments to growth, if you face things that threaten the stability of your country,

I know that President Trump will be very interested because of your relationship with him and because of this importance of this country to us, just finding ways to provide assistance if that moment ever were to arise. Joe, your thoughts here, especially with the need to talk about Ukraine and what is going on there. But I think important to take a beat and put a frame around what just happened and what Marco

would be able. Yeah. Why do we do that? Because let me just say, for those of us who are conservative with a small sea, for those of us who love the West and love freedom and have, you know, remember when West Germany was at the edge of freedom and now it's moved to Ukraine, it's important to hear what he said. And for those of us who, again, traditionally believe in freedom and the importance of moving freedom is for east as we can move it, it's important to understand that what Marco Rubio,

he knows what he said is a lie. What is best for Hungary is worse for the United States. Hungary has war bond at his head. He is a pro-Putin lackey. Everything he does in the EU is to hurt Ukraine and to help Putin. He stands alone, or until recently stood alone, as being the only pro-Puton lackey in Europe. And this is a guy that throughout the post-communist constitution in 2012,

he has destroyed the independence of the courts. He has prosecutors, tell me if this sounds familiar, who spend their days going after political enemies. He has committed war, declared war against universities and research centers and taken away their independence. He has taken away the independence of the press. He has brought phony charges against people who owned, had press, had owned television, had owned television. stations and newspapers, so brought charges against them and ran them out of the business. He has bugged the phones of reporters. And he's rigged elections. He rigged elections in such a way that his

party would always win supermajorities. This is the most autocratic country in central and Western Europe, and what is good for Orban is bad for America, is bad for freedom, is bad for Ukraine, and is only good for Vladimir Putin. And I suppose Donald Trump, it is screwed up that any American president would want anything to do with that autocratic thug. And for Marco Rubio, a guy catty, for Marco Rubio, a guy who is this, you know, anti-communist talk and against autocracy and supporting freedom and liberty for him to be embracing Orban and saying those things about Orban, which he does not believe, it is a new low. Yeah, I was listening to that speech that he gave in Hungary, and I felt like you that it came off as somebody

who was desperately trying to say something they believed in, but it was pretty obvious that they didn't. I mean, there is Marco Rubio. He's sort of straddling this world where he's looking to 2028, thinking, I have to shore up the MAGA vote. I can't have them abandon me. I have to make sure that Donald Trump is happy, although apparently he wasn't with the speech that he gave in Berlin,

and make sure the Europeans are also happy because that's actually what I believe. I still do believe in this world order where America leads, and he tried to reconcile Europeans and have them in a bit better position with America at the Berlin Security Conference, at the Munich Security Conference. But then he goes on, and where does he go and visit?

The two countries that are the most Russia aligned in all of Europe. He goes to Slovakia and he goes to Hungary. And maybe there was a charitable reason. He could have gone to those two countries and said, we really don't like you buying Russian oil. Those are the two countries in the European Union that buy the most European Russian oil. You're funding the Russian war machine, please stop.

But actually he stands up and he gives a little bit of a speech saying, you know, we will help you. And if you win the election, then we'll have even more help for Hungary. It sounded a little bit what like they did in Argentina. And he didn't seem to have taken a tough line with Hungary. Let's bring into the conversation, the editor-in-chief of the economist, Zani Mittn Bezos, who was at the Munich Security Conference last week. Zani, great to have you at the table with us. This comes also in the context of Marco Rubio in Munich, giving a speech where he effectively

lectured American allies about civil. irasional erasure about how they're allowing their civilizations to be wiped out, their history to be wiped out by immigration. It comes just a few weeks after Davos, when the president went, President Trump went even further, sort of insulting at every turn our allies, and then going to Hungary and just being completely conciliatory and saying, we are arm in arm. We stand shoulder to shoulder with you. A very notable difference in tone in those addresses. Absolutely. I would, was in the room in Munich when Secretary Rubio gave his talk. Actually, it felt like less of a lecture, at least compared to the same speech given last year

by Vice President J.D. Vance, which was very much a lecture, which completely shocked Europe. This time, it was on Valentine's Day. Secretary Rubio actually said a lot of words that there was a standing ovation at the end. Words like, you know, he mentioned that the Europeans and the Americans had bled and died side by side from Kepiang to Kandahar. He, you know, quoted, he talked about Dante and the heritage of everything that America owed to Europe. But the underlying tones were very much the kind of MAGA tones, as you say, of civilizational erasure that would come from mass migration. He talked about obsession with climate cult, all of the kind of talking points of the MAGA. And in the room at the time and afterwards, people were saying, is this just the same MAGA

President Trump agenda with a nicer veneer, a kind of Valentine's Day veneer, or is it something different? And I think what we've learned from his trip to Budapest is that it absolutely was just the same MAGA, but just with a slightly more polite framing in Munich. And so I think in Europe now, people are very, very clear. The US cannot be trusted. The US, Europe needs to de-risk from the US. And there's a bit of a division amongst European leaders about how dramatically that change has to be. Because it's difficult for Europe, right?

Europe really needs the US, in NATO, in all kinds of things. there are still European leaders who listen to the Marco Rubio in Munich and think, actually, you know, the US is still with us. This is all going to be okay. But there are others who say, essentially, it's over. We need to assume that we're on our own. And Europe needs the US as the strong leader slash beacon of the free world, not the direction it's going in now. And the question is, are some banking on history holding? I think that's over. I think in, Europe, there's a very strong sense that I got from the days in Munich and indeed before in Taoist.

All this idea of what people call the global world order, the US led over. It is over. The West, I think, is over as a concept in the sense that there are significant differences now between what the United States administration wants and what many people in Europe want. And it is much, it is important to be realistic about that. There are areas that we agree on. But the idea that the US is pushing for the same agenda as Europe, think only about

look at Ukraine. You say, Secretary Rubio is supporting the man who is making it most difficult in Europe to support Ukraine. Frank Ford, jump in. Yeah, Zani, I'm struck by the finality of the way that Europeans seem to be talking about this derisking or this decoupling with the United States. But what practically does it mean for American foreign policy? Europeans can talk this sort of way. But in terms of the way that we operate in the world, what are the practical implications? So in the short term, I think the practical implications depend on whether the Europeans take this as the moment where they are actually at last going to do all the things that everyone needs they know what to do.

They need to do. Massively increased defense spending, you know, shake up their regulations so their economy grows faster, all of the kind of to-do list that has been lectured at Europe for a long time and rightly so. If they use this moment to do that, then I think Europe becomes more powerful in its own right and is able over to do. time to be more derisked and more independent from the United States. It's going to take a long time. I think let's be realistic about this. So it's not like, you know, overnight Europe is not going to be incredibly dependent on the US. The transatlantic relationship really matters, but rather like a kind of a family that has had some terrible behavior or a relationship that's had some terrible behavior. This is now ruptured something. Mark Carney, the Prime Minister of Canada, talked about a rupture. I think something has ripped. And there is a massive loss of

trust. And in Europe now, there are more and more people saying, we cannot trust the Americans any longer. And that's a fundamental shift. Zali, hi. There's a kind of delight in MAGA world in trashing Europe at the moment. It started with J.D. Vance. Marco Rubio tried to soften it a bit, but it's still basically there. Do you think there's more that Europeans could do to explain to American voters what the value, the practical economic value of Europe is, beyond just the trade relationship, perhaps, perhaps it's to do with when it comes to China, what the value of Europe is to America and to the health and well-being of Americans? Yeah, I think there's an awful lot more that could be done. I mean, Europeans are very,

they're the biggest people who are the most down on their own region. You know, the people who are most pessimistic about Europe are Europeans themselves. So yes, they could do much more. And that is beginning to happen. You know, at Munich and indeed before in Davos, I felt almost for the first time a sense amongst most to all European leaders, that, we are going to stand up for these. We are proud of believing in rules and believing in alliances and believing in order. And no, we're not going to go down this path that we're being told to go down by the United States. So I think standing up and saying, well, actually, you know, Europe, yes, it may be, you know, less wealthy than US. Yes, it maybe have too many regulations.

But actually, you all want to come here on holiday and you want to come here on holiday for a good reason that this is a place where the rule of law exists. This is a place where things are predictable. This is a place where we actually do have free speech. You need to kind of go. against these social media memes which are just simply not true. And for example, London, you know, the view in this country, I think, is that London is some kind of hellhole where, you know, Sharia law rules in certain places and where you get mugged the minute you leave your house or office. It is not true.

I live in London. London is still a vibrant city. It's, so I think there is a lot that needs to be changed in terms of the perception of Europe. But Europeans, I do think, somehow a Rubicon has been crossed. And I think it was crossed with Greenland, where there was suddenly a kind of, what are the Americans doing? What are they saying? And, but, you know, never underestimate European's ability to procrastinate and take too long. They will do. But I think something has now fundamentally spurred them on. Yeah, Joe. Yeah, well, and, and, Zanny, I assure you that millions of Americans believe London is an

extraordinary city and a great place to go. Obviously, other than Caddy's neighborhood, we would tell tourists stay out of that neighborhood. Kind of. sketch. But other than that, it's like, right, you'd agree, right? The crap part of Soho is, as Roger Bennett would say about his place. But you know, Caddy, by the way, it's like San Francisco, which is such a horrible place. All of these bros sportscasters went out to San Francisco and we're like, dude, this is a beautiful city. I love this city. But yeah, it's just absolute nonsense. I'm wondering, and I open this up to both Caddy and also Zanny, obviously so many of us are deeply concerned about what has happened over the past year, year and a half, those of us who love

actually what the United States and Europe did, starting in 1947 with NATO. I'm wondering, though, Zanny, it almost sounded like you thought, good idea, yes, increase your defense spending, throw off these regulations that have dragged Europe's economy down, get more independent, become a more thriving global. I've got to say, again, second largest GDP in the world, the EU. So it's not like it's a poor place. But I'm just wondering, are there some things coming out of this and finding the independence that will be positive for Europe?

in the long run? Absolutely. This may turn out to be the best thing that happened to Europe, in the sense that it is a sort of a real kick-up the pants to the Europeans to get on with something that they needed to have got on with. And I think, you know, I actually, you know, I agree with a lot of the underlying arguments, even that President Trump is making. It is true that the Europeans relied much too much on the United States for defense. It is true that after the end of the Cold War, their social spending increased as their defense spending decreased. It is true that that's not sustainable. It is also true that Europe's economies need deregulating, and there's a lot that needs to be done for Europe to be sustainable in the next decade.

However, the bit that I find difficult and the bit that I think is undermines the argument that the Trump administration makes is that all this stuff about, you know, anti-mass migration, pushing the essentially the far-right parties in Europe. What they are doing with that is weakening Europe, because if those parties are in power, then Europe has a much worse future. I'm with quite a lot of what they're pushing for, but I think the way they're doing it and the underlying tones are ones that are designed to weaken Europe. Yeah, I think the irony, Joe, is that it could be

that this is not the MAGA administration that makes America great again. It has the opportunity to be the mega administration that makes Europe great again. Then Europe has to get its act together. These 27 nations actually have to agree to get things done. I think there are still a lot of people in Europe

and here in the United States who would like to have some kind of thought that in 2028, a Democrat might be elected or a more normal Republican is elected, and we could go back to the status quo ante. And the way that Europe will really change and really reform itself and really become more security independent is if Europeans keep the pressure, their foot on the pedal, because the moment they feel they don't have a sense of urgency, the moment they feel they can go back to what is their natural state of being of spending more on well,

welfare programs, for example, then I think Europe will run into problems and it won't be able to do this transformation that in a way Donald Trump has precipitated. Wow, quite a conversation, editor-in-chief of the economist, Zanny Minton-Bettos. Thank you very much for coming on the show this morning. And coming up, we're going to go through the latest comments on the Epstein files. From both Hillary Clinton and President Trump, plus the president has hundreds of millions of dollars in pack money. But how will he use it in the midterms?

We'll discuss that with David Drucker just ahead on Morning Joe. It now has been 17 days since Nancy Guthrie was reported missing from her home near Tucson, Arizona, as investigators work around the clock to try to find the 84-year-old mother and grandmother. The Pima County Sheriff said yesterday, all members of her family, including her children and their spouses, have been cleared as possible suspects in her disappearance. He added this, quote, the family has been nothing but cooperative and gracious and are victims in this case. To suggest otherwise is not only wrong, it is cruel. That update from the sheriff seemingly in response to baseless accusations, some made by prominent people, about the family in recent days.

Meanwhile, as the search for answers continues, officials are working to gather more information about the masked person seen here on Nancy's porch the night she went missing. DNA from a glove found near the home that appears to match the ones worn by the person in that video is still being analyzed. And Mika, people around this investigation say it is critical to point out that family members have been cleared completely. There are people, some with big platforms who have been talking and speculating about people in the family. That has not only hurt the family personally, but it also has hurt the investigation and sent people in directions they don't need to be going in as they try to find the person. they try to find the person who took the mother of our beloved Savannah. Exactly. And again, for us personally who loves Savannah so much, we want her to know that we are thinking

about her every second of every day. We never stop thinking and hoping for this to come to some sort of resolution that can allow Savannah and her family to have her life back and also to find her mother, to find her mother, to keep the focus on finding her mother. video, Savannah, as Savannah does, is appealing to the better angels of everybody out there, of people who may even feel lost, to say, please, please help us find her mother. And we love her so much. That's all I would like to say to her. Amen.