Morning Joe - David Ignatius: The path out of war requires us to work with our allies toward a diplomatic solution

Episode Date: April 6, 2026

David Ignatius: The path out of war requires us to work with our allies toward a diplomatic solution To listen to this show and other MS podcasts without ads, sign up for MS NOW Premium on Apple Podcasts. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

President Trump addressed the nation about the war with Iran and threatened to, quote, bring them back to the Stone Age where they belong. And in the spirit of Easter, let me just say, Jesus Christ. In his speech, President Trump referred to the war in Iran as a little journey, because little journeys are all anyone can afford to take now. Oh, a couple of jokes from Saturday Night Live's Weekend Update. It comes as President Trump is facing criticism. for a vulgar post yesterday morning on Easter Sunday,

threatening to attack civilian infrastructure in Iran if the Strait of Hormuz is not reopened. A few countries in the Middle East have put together a 45-day ceasefire proposal. We will go through all of that straight ahead. Plus, the New York Times has new reporting on Stephen Miller, continuing his push for an aggressive mass deportation campaign despite backlash for the hardline immigration crackdown. And congratulations to the UCLA Bruins who won their first NCAA

Women's Basketball Championship yesterday, blowing out South Carolina. What a great team. Good morning and welcome to Morning, Joe. It is Monday, April 6th. And with us, we have the co-host of our 9 a.m. Our staff writer at the Atlantic, Jonathan Lemire, columnist and associate editor of the Washington Post, David Ignatius, co-host of the weekend and a Washington reporter for MS Now. Jackie Alamani filling in on way too early this morning. And MS Now senior national security reporter David Road joins us. So, Joe, yeah, happy Easter to everybody.

Happy Easter to everybody. Blessed Passover as well. And we're going to get into the news, but really quickly, we need to go to our basketball store, Jackie Alamani. Jackie. Yes. I looked up halfway through the final yesterday and was shocked to see UCLA, just absolutely controlling the whole game. The entire game. And never saw that coming for people, you know, Meek and I were talking and for anybody that feels sorry for Dawn Staley after what, the bizarre thing that Gino did.

I said, don't feel sorry for like the Nick Saban of the sport. I mean, it's extraordinary what she's done in South Carolina. She will be back. Gino will be back, though Gino may be apologizing for quite some time for whatever happened the other day. But talk about UCLA and what a dominant performance. Yeah, and not totally expected. I mean, their star, Lauren Betts, was actually on the bench for some portion of the game. she had some unknown injury.

She said something was stuck in her throat. But it is very rare. Well, first of all, this is their 30 first consecutive win. So they didn't just make modern history, but that is an extremely long winning streak to be able to actually execute. And then to be able to be so dominant, so consistently throughout the whole game,

it was pretty amazing. But I did feel for Don Staley. She's an incredible leader who has, who has been a pretty remarkable foil to Gino Aurema's longtime reign. Yeah, just incredible. And Mika, I think the quote of the weekend actually may have come from Dan Hurley, who when asked what exactly had happened to Gino. Of course, Gino, who's been there forever in a day,

Hurley said, well, I'm afraid I may not have been a good example to him. Yeah, that was help. I've covered Gino for years back to my days as an anchor and a reporter for WFSB Channel 3 eyewitness News in Hartford, Connecticut, and interviewed Gino many times and Rebecca Lobo back when she was a player just to completely date myself. And so, yeah, no, I actually was surprised by it. And I loved Don's response. I thought the whole thing, Gino apologized. I mean, it played out well and showed some things in the moment about the power of a woman,

which I like a lot. That's pushing back in real time. I've always loved Gino. I have no idea what he was doing there. But Jonathan Lemire, you know, she's just out and out, like saying, let me at him, let me at him. What does you say I'll kick Gino's ass or something like that? Oh, no. You have a very, you brought up a very good point to me yesterday offline that that town in Connecticut may not be big enough for both Gino and Dan Hurley.

Stores? Yeah, Stores. Connecticut, pretty unassuming spot in Connecticut. They're growing up in New Englander watched with, you know, disbelief as is transformed into like the capital of basketball, at least college basketball, men's and women's side. But two significant, two great coaches, two significant egos, two big personalities there in stores. And we will see, you know, Gino, you know, that was not his finest moment this weekend. He has apologized since, but that was, that did take away from what was a great game and a great, in a great run. You know, Coach Daly handled it just fine, although yesterday, of course, no match for UCLA.

And then, of course, we've got Yukon tonight, the men's side going for another national title. This would be the third in four years, facing off, though, against a favored and Michigan squad who looked absolutely dominant. in the semifinals. That, that, that Michigan squad looks amazing. Now, listen, we're going to get to Iran. There's a lot to, a lot to sort through the president's vulgar Easter morning post, where he managed to insult both every Muslim across the world and Christians on the most sacred morning in the Christian faith. But, but before we do that, I want to, I just read something that was passed along over the weekend. actually was written on X

and it's extraordinarily insightful and I want to read it and a good friend of David Ignatius and this shows, but would love David to respond to Atlantic contributor Karim Sajapur. He's, of course, one of three-minute

experts on Iran. And I just want to read portions of the thread now. And he says, the defining deliberations of this war aren't between the U.S. and Iran, but Trump and himself. He's facilitated between walking away and promising to bomb Iran into the Stone Age.

Iran's been consistent. Its ideology is resistant. Its strategy is chaos. Its endgame survival. Trump has misunderstood the nature of the Islamic Republic. His threats to decimate Iran have not moved a regime which, since its inception, has shown itself willing to destroy the country and its people, rather than compromise its power or ideology. In contrast to Trump, who has no fixed foreign policy views, Tehran's ruling class called themselves principalists because of their fidelity to the principles of the revolution

above all resistance against America and the rejection of Israel's existence. These revolutionary ideas serve as both a glue holding the regime together and an anchor holding the nation down. The country will never advance without abandoning the ideology. The regime believes it cancer, survive if it abandons those same principles, though. Trump speaks about a conflict as a negotiation in pursuit of a grand bargain. Tehran may accept a narrow deal in exchange for a ceasefire, but its enemy toward the U.S. and Israel will remain. Ayatollah Khomeini chose martyrdom over normalization. The sun will do the same. The paradox of the Islamic Republic is that it tends to compromise only under severe pressure. That same external pressure and isolation have helped it entrench the regime.

One clear lesson from Iraq, Afghanistan, and the Arab Spring is that the U.S. cannot dictate political outcomes. regime opponents significantly outnumber regime supporters in Iran, but no outside power can forge a new national consensus for Iranians. The most urgent priority isn't a Iran's nuclear program, it's the straight of Hormuz. Tehran is trying to normalize it as its own Panama Canal. This is a problem that should have a diplomatic solution. Europe, Asia, and Arab partners all have a strong interest in keeping it open. Trump, of course, as we said, David Ignatius, Trump wants a quick deal.

The regime for ideological and structural reasons can't make one. And so long as the Islamic Republic rules Iran, the inevitable outcome is to return to the Cold War that predates this conflict and will likely outlast it. And finally, David, wars like revolutions are judged by the political orders they build, not by what they destroy. Trump is measuring this war by what he has destroyed. History will judge it by its lasting impact on Iran, the Middle East, and the broader global order. and David, it's what you have been explaining,

what I've been trying to explain on this show time and time again, what you destroy doesn't matter. What you build, what is left behind is what matters. And right now, the what is, again, difference militarily and politically. Militarily, they've hit targets, not as many as they thought they had, not as effectively as they thought they had, obviously, judging by the plane shot down over the weekend. But what exactly is going to be left behind remains an open-ended question,

even more open-ended than before the first bomb started dropping? So there's nobody wiser in assessing the Middle East and Iran, in particular than Kareem Sajdipur. And people in Washington in government and every part of the media have been turned to Kareem for a decade for that kind of analysis that you've just read. And it's deeply distressing to read his clear, honest account of where we are. He describes a president who, as he says in the beginning, has been vacillating between bombing Iran back into the Stone Age and then in the next breath he'll talk about walking away from the conflict and leaving it for others to resolve.

In contrast to this regime, hardline, brutal, but unwavering in its commitment to what it calls its principles. As this crisis continues, it just seems to wind down to ever, ever greater danger than disruption for the region, ever greater loss of life. This weekend was, in some ways, the most painful of all, I felt. The heroic moment for the United States and our special forces, the rescue of the downed, a colonel in a mountain crevice in Iran, the number of people, the bravery, the deception to be able to get him out. This shows just how extraordinary our military is, followed by that vulgar Easter tweet. You know, Joe, 50 years from now, when people are trying to understand what this war was about, read the language in that tweet. And then they'll look to other presidents in stress

and what they said to the country that President Washington, President Lincoln, at the depths of the Civil War level of loss of life unseen and the calm and reflective way in which he spoke, Franklin Roosevelt during the nightmare of World War II. And then to read this almost like schoolboy vulgarity from the president was, I think, shocking to all of us. So we're now heading toward another ultimatum. President Trump has said at 8 p.m.

Tuesday, world's going to come to an end in Iran. It's hard to know with each of these threats, whether it's really a warning that Armageddon is ahead or a prelude to negotiation. But Joe, I think Karim's measured analysis of how difficult this crisis is now, how hard it will be to to solve is exactly the right way for all of us to start the week. And David, tell us where you think we are in this 38th day. So, Joe, I think we're still a balance between the two fundamental themes of this war. Tactical brilliance of the United States military was demonstrated in a different way with this rescue mission, but it was an amazing feat of arms showed off our special operations forces the ways they can do things.

Nobody else on the planet can. But it also showed that Iran can withstand our best punch and has got an asset in the Strait of Hormuz that it's very hard to take away absent diplomacy. I've been thinking that if Trump did go through with his threat to blow, to smith, otherines, every power plant, bridge, etc., that would probably make the straight of home moves impassable for decades. It would lead behind such ruin and rage that the idea of reopening it under any circumstances would be almost impossible. I'm not sure Trump thinks through the consequences of that action. So we're again at a moment where to me, the path out of the

out of this towards something that will stabilize the region and achieve the basic war goals of the United States requires us to work with our allies towards some kind of diplomatic solution. The idea you could just keep pounding the other guy and he's going to eventually say, okay, that's it. I think the evidence in this war points in a quite different direction. Quite different direction. And maybe we saw some of that frustration Eastern morning with that absolutely. absolutely obscene quote that again insults every Muslim across the planet and a good number of Christians across the planet. And of course, there are those David Rode who would suggest,

well, you just don't understand Trump. Trump is schooling everybody. He plays by a difference. It's not Donald Trump or are people in the media where we're concerned about. It's what's the impact on those who consider America their enemies. And the impact is not good. Now, you, you, of course, David, understand the impact of language like that, better than anybody that we could have on the show and our Morning Joe family, because you actually were held as a prisoner of war for seven months by jihadists when the Taliban seized you. When you talk about how far from intimidating jihadists who want nothing more than martyrdom and who want nothing more to bring down America and destroy the West. This is not a post that would frighten them. Like, it might

frighten some people in the West who are intimidated by the United States and Donald Trump, but this actually energizes them and entrenches them even more. Explain that and what you learned, again, about the thought process of jihadists in the middle of a hot war while you were being held captive. Thank you. It was a long time ago, and I don't talk about it very often anymore. But yeah, it struck me when this tweet came out last night. It's just, or sorry, yesterday morning, this is, you know, not going to have an impact on a hardened jihadist. The Taliban are different than Iranians, but it's the same sort of very extreme religious view that if you die fighting for, you your cause, you will become a martyr.

They'll be rewarded for that. There's a lot of brainwashing that goes on. There were young men that I met in captivity. This was, I was kidnapped in Afghanistan and then held in the Pakistani tribal areas. And they were being brainwashed into being suicide bombers. So this, you know, maybe this is an effective political style of argument to threaten your opponent in the United States. But I don't think it's going to cause the Iranian regime back down. Talk to a Persian Gulf diplomat this morning who agrees that this just strengthens the position of the Iranian hardliners.

And just one of their anecdote for this weekend, I met with a group of Iranians, some of whom have just sort of fled to the U.S. in recent years. And they talked about when they can reach their relatives. Again, this blackout, this internet blackout continues inside Iran, which prevents protests. But these are moderates who've left the country, and they're talking to their, you know, parents and relatives. and they describe their parents watching Tehran be destroyed in front of their eyes. And they literally said the president, you know, said on the night he launched these strikes, help is on the way. And so people in Iran are simultaneously sitting there waiting for help and, you know, just baffled by these threats of massive destruction to civilian infrastructure.

A Pakistani government official, close to the matter, tells MS now that a first of, framework to end hostilities between Iran and the United States has been put together by Pakistan with the help of Egypt and Turkey. The official adds the proposal was exchanged with the two warring countries overnight following the extensive conversations with both parties. It is said to be a two-tiered approach, starting with an immediate ceasefire, then followed by a comprehensive agreement. The official says there is no strict deadline. But given President, in Trump's public messaging, they are working to get something affirmed today. However, a Persian Gulf diplomat with experience in recent negotiations with Iran tells MS now that the Iranian

foreign minister is expected to reject the offer, arguing in part that a temporary ceasefire does not work because of Iran's previous experience. Axis, meanwhile, side sources who say the first phase of the proposed deal is a 45-day cessation of hostilities, providing a window to work toward a permanent end to the fighting, as well as a solution for the Strait of Hormuz and for Iran's highly enriched uranium. But they, too, add, the chances for reaching a partial deal over the next 48 hours are slim as the two sides appear to remain far apart. Jonathan Lemire, there are a lot of different facets of this, regions that want an outcome that is toward peace. Again, it goes back to what David said and what David said, Ignatius and Road. We're not dealing with a country that thinks the way one would. You know, they, to David's point, have an extreme end to this in mind.

Yeah. And so you can't reason. I mean, a proposal for a plan could fall flat over and over and over again because of the damage that has already been done. Right. I mean, to get an agreement here, you needed rational actors. And certainly, we could argue that Iran, not a rational actor. One has to wonder right now if we have rational actors in Washington, too, leading this. Yes, there's certainly a flurry of diplomacy here. Some of the neighbors of region, Pakistan from the beginning has really tried to step up. They deserve credit for trying to broker a deal. It's been portrayed to me the same way that the Axios and others that you just read, that yes, there's some talks here, but there's still not a lot of optimism or hope. But perhaps that will change between now and the president. deadline, which keeps shifting. It was originally going to be tonight, Monday night. Now it is tomorrow, Tuesday night, Eastern time. This is, you know, to underscore what David Anacian said earlier, it was certainly a, this weekend, though Iran proved it could still, you know, defend itself and shooting down not just the fighter jet, but also some of the rescue operations to, you know,

helicopters and like who were trying to help. But a remarkable success story, an incredible operation to retrieve these soldiers, to not leave anyone behind, these airmen, really breathtaking. At the same time, this happens, and we have to look at the whole picture here, as, you know, Secretary of Defense Hegsetth fires some of the top generals in the Army, including the chief of staff, during a time of war, which is unheard of right now, as he continues to courage his foes out of the Pentagon. And then, of course, we have the president's tweet yesterday morning, which was not only just blasphemous and deeply insulting, but risks, you know, further inflaming the situation. And if he goes through with this threat, I mean, let's be clear what this is.

This is not only just war crime, period, targeting civilian sites like these energy infrastructure, bridges and the like, but will likely further turn the rest of the Iran population against us, who, to David Rhodes' point of a moment ago, have been waiting for help, still waiting, and instead, if we plunge them into darkness, return them to the Stone Age, as the president keeps saying, like, that's just going to inflame that situation more, potentially create a failed state, a refugee problem, but also turn the rest of the populists, you know, who don't like the regime, you know, but now if the U.S. sort of sets them back for decades, you know, we'll turn against us, too, and just harden them in this conflict.

David, we need to go to break, but Jonathan brought up something that I just, I just, David, David, Ignatius brought up something that I just, I just want to underline. And Jonathan brought it up as well. And that is what we saw this weekend. was an Iran that still has war fighting capability. I was told two weeks ago from an intel source that has worked Iran for a generation that whenever he sees General Kane going out, talking about the number of military targets destroyed, said it has eerie echoes of body counts in the Vietnam War, where every night we would dutifully hear how many of the Vietnam were killed. and it was supposed to make Americans feel better.

Three weeks ago, this CIA analyst said, sounds a lot like a body count. They're far more resilient than the Trump administration thinks they are. They have far more equipment hidden throughout that terrain. This could go on for a very long time. It looks, David, three weeks later, like that's exactly where we are now. So, Joe, their ability, still three weeks now, a month into this war, to use power to shoot down American advanced

war planes and then menace those trying to rescue them is one demonstration of how they're still in the fight. They have planned for this really for years, and they're fighting with the conviction of their extreme ideology. And the fear is, some growing support from the population. I hope that would be the most dangerous outcome for us. We turn a country that was, you know, a vast majority wanting change to a country that's beginning to resent America more broadly. But, yeah, they're still in this fight.

I do think the numbers tell us that they're very much weakened. But their ability to keep holding their hostage. Their hostages, it's the straight of Hormuz. they've got their arms around around the global economy's neck there and there's no sign that they're going to relax that absent diplomacy.

We mentioned earlier the different strands of diplomacy. They're out there. Former Iranian foreign minister Javad Zarif wrote in foreign affairs over the weekend a detailed peace proposal. It has elements that would address every concern in the United States

when its allies have had about Iran. So that's one more strand for people to think about as they wonder the Tuesday deadline approaching. Is it bombs away or are we going to maybe get to a negotiating date? Okay. So everybody stay with us. We're going to have more from Jackie Alamani and David Rode in just a moment. Also, David Ignatius, is going to talk about what exactly is the hope for Iran and what in recent history gives him hope for Iran's future.

also retired generals hurtling and McCaffrey will be joining us. Morning Joe continues in just a moment. It's half past the hour. Very few Republican allies of the president have commented on his expletive-laden Easter Sunday post. Though Senator Lindsey Graham, who pushed for the war in Iran, wrote on social media that Trump is deadly serious when it comes to his ultimatum to reopen the Strait of Hormuz. However, former Republican Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Green, who was once a close Trump ally, notably responded to the Post saying the president has gone insane and urged members of the administration to intervene in Trump's madness. Jackie Alamani, what are you hearing about reaction on Capitol Hill and perhaps even some saying perhaps what many are thinking about not only the Post,

but the approach right now to Iran. Yeah, Mika, well, lawmakers right now are benefiting from the luxury of being on recess, where they are not going to have to be confronted by reporters until next week. There is a feeling that they're probably just trying to wait this news cycle out. So can I just ask you something? Yeah. It's Easter recess, but the posts that the president put out, isn't that a reason for concern, if you are a member of Congress, Republican, or Democrat, waded out?

Did you, absolutely nobody weighed in in any way? Marjorie Taylor Green was a little bit of the outlier. There was Don Bacon, who basically chided the president for his language, but didn't necessarily take issue with the actual content. What you're seeing here is while there, while an overwhelming majority disapproves of this war in Iran, Republican support for the war still remains steadfast. However, I think the red line here that we've talked about the last few weeks for lawmakers is boots on the ground. That is what lawmakers are on high alert for. They have expressed private concerns. Some of them actually went public after

some troubling briefings that they received behind closed doors. These were classified briefings from Pentagon officials about the direction of the war. But there has not been a lot of public accountability for President Trump. They have repeatedly declined to congressionally authorize what Trump is doing. And there was very scant reaction. I mean, Mike Lawler, there were a few Republicans who were on Sunday shows yesterday. He continued to voice his support for Trump's objectives and actually said that a lot of the criticism was misplaced, that it has objectively been militarily successful. I do think, though, patients is wearing thin. There are now several blown postponed deadlines. We're also nearing that

four to six week period that Trump said this would be over. And again, I think the red line here is lawmakers do not want to see boots on the ground. It's something that we're going to be watching very closely today when President Trump makes remarks. He's going to be appearing in the briefing room answering questions from reporters. I imagine he's going to be asked for more granular information on what exactly the plan is. There's been lots of shifting goalposts on what the military objectives are here and what the end game is. And we also have that 8 p.m. deadline tomorrow for reopening the Strait of Hormuz, where Trump has made a series of various threats on what he says will happen if it is not reopened. Right.

You know, the muted response to a statement that would have been absolutely sure, shocking at it. It would have shut down Washington had it been done by Joe Biden, by Barack Obama, by George W. Bush, by Bill Clinton, by anybody that sat in the Oval Office before Donald Trump shows you just how numb, not only the Republican Party, but also a lot of members of the press have become to the most outrageous of statements. This was an outrageous Easter morning post, again on the most blessed holiday for Christians across the globe. And the message that was being sent out, again, should have been insulting to the evangelicals

who line up to support a president who doesn't support a great deal of what they have at least claimed in the past to have their values. But also, I think even more importantly for this discussion, has insulted Muslims across the world. And it's the last thing we want to be doing right now with Iranians who actually at one point wanted America to rescue them from the hell that they've been living under since 1979.

Now, through all of this bad news, the bad news of the fact that, yes, we had a heroic operation to rescue pilots. And my gosh, what an uplifting story that was extraordinary rescue. The bad news there, of course, always there had to be a rescue at all because we've been hearing time and time again that the United States completely controls the skies over Iran. We found out this weekend, that's just not true. But David Ignatius, despite the bad news, you have recent analysis for the Washington Post titled, Recent History Gives Me Hope for Iran's Future.

David, on this Monday morning, please, good news now. Well, let me give it a try. In these dark days, you do try to think what could justify the terrible suffering that people are experiencing. And I think back to my own two trips to Iran, the Iranian people, the passion they have for modern life. And I think also about how the Soviet Union, another monstrous regime that are oppressed its people, oppressed its neighbors, finally collapsed because of patient, steady, consistent, measured American power over decades, working always with allies. And what was remarkable as how quickly that tyrannical regime in Moscow and in all the capitals of Eastern Europe

collapsed, a regime as mean and trenched as the regime in Iran. And in a few years, it was swept away. And not just the regime itself in the Eastern European countries, but the secret policemen that they built up in Poland and East Germany, just like the RGC in the business of intimidating people, frightening them into compliance. And a couple of years later, they were gone. And those countries are some of the ones that I find the most exciting, most full of real democratic activity and creativity in Europe.

So, you know, it's a reminder to me that if we could, rather than talking about blowing Iran back into the Stone Ages, figure out a transition path over time for Iran to become the country, I'm convinced its people want it to be. there's a better future. May it sound corny the day after Easter Sunday, but there it is. So David Rode, there was a promise of helping on the way. And in fact, Senator Lindsey Graham, one of certainly Iran Hawk, who wanted President Trump to have a muscular military intervention here. He has said to the president, it's been reported, as saying that could be part of your legacy if you were able to help the people of Iran.

But to this point, he has not. And what he's threatening to do now would only be a setback. I share David Ignatius' optimism and his cornyness, and that I feel the people of Iran, it reminds me the people of Afghanistan, particularly in cities. They were proud of being Muslim, but they wanted to be modern and Muslim at the same time. They want to be like Dubai or Turkey and this kind of thing. I think the key problem here is how do you provide help on the way? And David Ignatius mentioned this earlier. The key to this war is opening the strait of Hormuz.

That is what makes the regime in Tehran. sort of toothless with no leverage over the international community. The Europeans want to be part of an effort to open the Strait of Hormuz. Various Persian Gulf states, diplomats that I've spoken to, want to be part of that. The Europeans want to get a UN Security Council resolution because what Iran is doing is closing an international waterway. That's a violation of international law. You build a coalition. You send in all these ships. You reopen. You threaten to reopen the Strait of Hormuz. that creates your pressure on Tehran. That's the key thing here, not bombing power plants.

And so it's a choice between upholding international law, which is America's tradition, or violating international law and devastating Iran's civilian infrastructure. So I just don't understand the strategy that the Trump administration is pursuing. It is confusing. MS Now, senior national security reporter David Rode in the Washington Post, David Ignatius, thank you both very much for being on this morning. And still ahead on Morning, Joe, what we're learning this morning about that elaborate and high-stakes rescue mission carried out in Iran after a U.S. fighter jet was shot down. And as we go to break, a quick look at the travelers' forecast this morning from Accuethers Bernie Rayno.

Bernie, how's it looking? Mika, no sign is spring for much of this weekend. The Northeast, exclusive acuether forecast. It is brisk and chilly today. 51 in Boston. Accuether says 56 in New York City, Washington, D.C., in the lower 60s. Those gusty winds will make it feel even colder, and there's going to be some snow from Buffalo, Rochester, and Syracuse later today, into tonight.

Much needed rain, but some thunderstorms. Tampa, Orlando, Miami, sunshine in Atlanta, Nashville, and in Dallas, travel delays this morning. Boston, New York City, Philadelphia, due to the wind. Watch Orlando and Miami because of storms this afternoon. To help you make the best decisions and be more in the know, download the Accuather App today. The UCLA Women's Basketball Team wins its first ever NCAA championship victory, earning the title in a lopsided win over South Carolina last night. You know, the Brewers never trailed. They opened up a huge lead against the Gamecox at the end of the first quarter and started the third quarter on a 12-3 run to put the game away.

UCLA secured its 31st consecutive win last night with the third largest margin of victory in Division 1 women's championship final beating South Carolina 79 to 51. Let's bring in right now. PR expert for Gino and the host of Pablo Tori finds out. We were just talking about this. Pablo Tori. You know, we grew up. I don't want Gino to overshadow this game. We're going to get to it.

I've just got to say, though. it was just so surprising what he did. Gino, we love Gino. We've always loved Gino around the show. We were just shocked what he did. We were shocked what he did. And then I get to say we were shocked that they handled it so badly even afterwards instead of just saying, hey, I was a bonehead.

I screwed up. My apologies, I get competitive. And I think everybody who said, okay, unfortunate. But yeah, Pablo, you find out. What did you find out about this? I mean, Gina Aurema has felt this season insecure in a way that is surprising to anybody who just looks at his resume and thinks, why is this guy so sensitive? Why is he inventing seemingly or performing the theater of being slighted by Don Staley? And I think the other noun in the story, the other proper noun, Don Staley, is the answer.

Yeah. It has been Yukon forever. And now it is South Carolina until yesterday when they lost the UCLA. But the era of women's basketball, which is in such a great place, Joe, business-wise, perception-wise, PR-wise, Gino ruled the roost in ways that went unchallenged largely until Don Staley, who was unapologetic in her own way, came along. And so the idea that Don is not double kissing the ring because it was the first pre-game hand-check, and then the second one which she demanded, that's where everyone was like, okay, this feels a little much, sir. He was a little much.

Yeah. Now, it was way too much. We, of course, have with us a basketball, a college superstar with Jackie that we're going to get to in a minute. Mika has a question for her about UCLA, who was just extraordinary yesterday. But first, Mika, what can be said? We've all said we love Gino despite whatever this was. But Don Staley, holy cow, man.

Kind of like, let me at him. I can kick his ass. Let me at Gino. That woman, I know you know. You've had her on your 50 over 50 list. She, I mean, talk about the force that she is. There was a moment for women that went way beyond sports. Her clapback was in the moment.

It was authentic. It was strong. It was powerful. And what I loved is in the end, it was also gracious. I love the example that she said for powerful women everywhere, which is get in the freaking game and clap back. Okay, do what you need to do to make your point and then move on respectfully. And she did.

And it was incredible to watch. And I love not only what Don did in the moment for Dawn and for her team, but also for women. The fact that this is being accepted and even celebrated around the world, I think is really important. Because women need to be able to push back in real time and say the right thing and do the right thing and not be criticized for it. So not only do I love Jackie, what Dawn did, I love the reception it's getting because her power overtook the whole story.

And it left space for Gino to apologize and for everyone to move on as well, which is elegant like women are. Yeah, Amika, you're completely right. And Pablo, I think what you said really nails it about this sort of succession dynamic going on here. I mean, I came, I was playing at Harvard during the reign of Maya Moore at Yukon. But we started my freshman year with, actually, it was Elena Del Don, who was Gino Ariama's star recruit.

And this was like all of the gossip and chatter and the rumor mill. Basically everyone's first few weeks being on campus as a freshman, we heard that Del Don sort of like left Yukon. playing for Gino in the middle of the night, decided that she no longer wanted to play for Yukon. She ended up taking time off. She eventually transferred. She obviously came back and had an amazing career, went on to the WMBA. She said that basically she didn't want to play for Yukon because it was so far away. She was having trouble being away from her family. These were some of the public statements she made at the time. But what we were hearing, because I had some teammates who were former teammates with her,

was that it was in part because of R.E.M.A.'s. Extreme expectations, ambitions. This guy is fiercely competitive. He has had an incredible run. But, as you all know, Don Staley is giving him a run for his money, and it is very refreshing to see her stand up for herself against someone with such a legacy like that.

And it's making a legacy of her own. No question. Moving on to yesterday's game, of Pablo. Amazing. You know, sat down, rather to settle in for the second half,

put on the score, went, I literally went, oh, wow, because I just could not believe that UCLA was not just winning, but winning so big.

And like this game was not competitive. And I think that's, let's take a moment here to acknowledge, sort of surprising UCLA's obviously on the men's side is a powerhouse

forever in college basketball, but the women's side is their first title and a really well-deserved one. This is a great team and they finished the year in style. Yeah, the subtext is the text here. South Carolina.

is Goliath now. And so when you see UCLA, look at the score, 79 to 51. I mean, women's college basketball in the tournament has become predictable because of Yukon and because of South Carolina. So UCLA, it's funny. The coach of UCLA, coach close, is a protege of John Wooden, the late great John Wooden. But UCLA, their basketball history on the men's side has not transferred over until yesterday to the women's. And so now you have a third player in this story. And that is, again, when we talk about the predictability of these tournaments, Joe, we've talked about it before. Goliath has come to roost. And the Davids, because of the way the economy of basketball on the men's side, has worked out, the efficient marketplace, the transfer portal, NIL, all of it has become more and more predictable.

The fact that this happens is one of those examples of a big brand name acting like a David and upsetting in Don Staley, South Carolina, an established power that has been the dynasty of her time. I mean, it really is. You thought you were looking at sort of Alabama and Clemson or Alabama and LSU fighting for dominance. You know, you saw that going back and forth. And that's what we thought we saw with Yukon and South Carolina. And then out of nowhere comes UCLA. It's about as compelling of a final four that women's basketball could hope for. Extraordinary. We're going to be talking, we've talked about it already, much more than we'll be talking about the men, which. May, of course, just be Michigan routing Yukon. I hope not. But I do have to say, Pablo, the quote of the week had to come from Dan Hurley after that remarkable upset. When asked about Gino, he said, quote, I'm afraid I've been a bad influence on Gino. So is that not awesome? That's not awesome.

Dan Early is out here headbutting refs. So, you know, maybe there is a bit of a, I learned it from you, Dad, kind of dynamic going on. No, that was kind. What a moment. That headbut, man, I still, that is the sports moment of the year. It was crazy. So tonight, let's just ask a question. I'm pulling for Yukon.

I think, Mika, I know Mika is. She loves Yukon. Same with our families. I'm curious, though, does Yukon have a chance against this Michigan team? team who just have looked unbeatable throughout the entire tournament. They're going to try and slow it down. And so in basketball, right, when you have one team that loves to run that's been blown out everybody in Michigan, look at the path they took to get here.

It seems like they've had zero issues. It's very easy for them based on the score. What Yukon's really good at is ball screens, it's half-court offense, a zillion actions, which means that they want to play a game that's like 60-ish possessions. That's their comfort zone. That's Michigan's discomfort. And so when you have the potential for a would-be blowout, what do you do? You prevent that team that might blow you out from getting as many opportunities to score.

And so that's what Yukon's whole thing has been, this whole tournament. They've again had, now this is three chances to win the national title in four years, which is incredible. That is the dynasty of the men's game right now. But you're going to have to see these highlights are going way too quick. They're going to have to slow it down against Michigan because Michigan has been so good at getting out of running. No doubt about it. Probably usually we would thank you right here, but I'm going to ask you to stay to the top of the hour to, of course, talk about with all the breaking news, just how bad the Red Sox are and how great the Yankees are playing.

MSNal, now Washington reporter and co-hosts of the weekend. Jackie Alamani, thank you so much for being one of this. We greatly appreciate it. Go, Yukon. Go, Yukon. Go, Yukon. Go, Yukon. Hope to see you very soon.