Morning Joe - Democrats flip GOP district in deep red Texas

Episode Date: February 2, 2026

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Mr. President, Texas, a Democrat won in a special election in an area that you had won by 17 points. What is your reaction to that? I don't know. I didn't hear about it. Somebody ran where? In Texas, special election for legislative? The ninth state senate. I'm not involved in that. That's a local Texas race.

You mean I won by 17 and this person lost? Things like that happen. Does it worry about the future? Well, you don't know whether or not it's transferable. I'm not on the balance, and you don't know whether or not it turns terrible. No, I don't know anything about it. I didn't know. I mean, I know there's a race going there, and it's too bad.

What can I say? I have nothing to do with it. All right, President Trump saying he does not know anything about a Texas state Senate race, one that he posted about three times last week. We'll go through that stunning upset. Wow. Just three. In the Lone Star State and try to read the Texas tea leaves on the impact for the

midterms. Also ahead, we'll dig into the massive new batch of Epstein files and what more we are learning from those documents. Three million pages. Plus, we are following multiple stories connected to Minnesota, including claims by ICE that an immigrant shattered his own skull while in custody. It comes as the five-year-old and his father, who were held by ICE for nearly two weeks, have been released. We'll go through what the judge said. and look at what the city DHS could be targeting next. Also ahead, new reporting from the Wall Street Journal on the spy shake who bought a secret stake in the Trump family's crypto company. Good morning and welcome to morning, Joe.

It is Monday, February 2nd, Groundhog Day. With us, we have the co-host of our 9 a.m. hour staff writer at the Atlantic, Jonathan Lemire, Politics Bureau chief and senior political columnist at Politico, Jonathan Martin, MS Now senior legal reporter and former litigator Lisa Rubin is with us. And MS now National Affairs analyst, John Halman. He is partner in chief political columnist at Puck. We got a lot of stories to cover this morning, including a lot to report on the Epstein files. But, Joe, there was a stunning upset in Texas worth topping the show with this morning. I didn't know anything about it or I knew everything about it. I'm not sure. But yes,

the president talked about it three times last week. And I loved it. I loved it in your intro. Can tell that you worked with Dan rather because you said, and sometimes reading elections is tough as reading Texas tea leaves. But this one, not so, not so tough at all. By the way, a great picture of that five-year-old boy. flying back to Minneapolis in the cockpit of a plane and the pilot giving him, giving him his own wings. That was beautiful. But yeah, a lot to talk about some stunning revelations in the Epstein files. And this is still just a portion of the Epstein files. And they've still blocked out probably some of the most important information there.

So the drip, drip, drip continues there. But I just read very quickly from Wall Street Journal says, Immigration enforcement that turns ugly in the streets will determine who wins the race for Congress this year. And Republicans have a real problem. And, you know, I feel bad for them that they just wouldn't listen to me because I've been saying the same thing from day one. And this is the reality. And the Wall Street Journal is now starting to talk about it. Some people are finally starting to talk about it, but are the Republicans still too scared or still too stupid to listen?

You cannot. You cannot go community to community, street to street, house to house, and get the numbers that the White House is saying they want to get without destroying your party politically. And we continue to still see videos coming out of Minneapolis. as we continue to still see, I think one of the most compelling videos and one of the most frightening videos, but also one of the most clarifying videos yesterday that I saw came, I believe it was from this weekend, but I'll get a confirmation on it where a woman is driving down the Minneapolis street, and cars are swerving wildly to cut her off. And she, what does she do?

She's so lawless. Oh my God, she's so lawless. How could she hate the law so much that she starts calling the police? Think about this. In America, in America. Look at this. Look at these thugs. Look, look, look, and he comes out with a gun.

And he gets in front of the car. They're pointing the gun. They're telling her to come out. They're yelling at her. So what does she do? She's desperately calling the police, desperately asking people to call 9-1-1. Get that, Republicans?

She's not calling the National Hippie Network. She's not caught. Look at this guy in front of the car. The gun. Get trained. Get trained before you draw. You're gone, you idiot. But what is she doing? Is she calling Antifa? Fox News? No, she's not calling Antifa.

She's calling the police, begging the police to come save her from what looks like a paramilitary legal force let loose on the streets of America to shoot Americans, to terrorize Americans on the streets of America. And the police officer comes, Mika. And he drives her home. He comes and he breaks up the paramilitary thugs. And it is the police officer, not Antifa, not the National Hippie Network, not leftists. A police officer comes and takes her home. Look at this. When these thugs come out of their car, standing in front of a car, drawing a gun, look at them.

In America, this is happening. This is still happening in your country. I will not get out of the car. This is an undisciplined paramilitary force that does not answer to anyone, obviously, because they're still doing this. And she calls 911. She calls the police. She's not asking to defund the police. She's asking to be saved from these thugs by the police.

by the police. You don't know what they're doing. By the police. You don't know what they're doing. But what they do know is that they're willing to draw, I'll tell you what, anybody in charge of this force that says, if you get out of a car, so help me God, and you draw your guns, you draw your guns, you know what? We're going to try you.

We're going to try you for assault. This is so out of control. And it looks like a paramilitary force from the third world. Yeah. And so police chief, not Antifa Republicans, not Antifa liars on the right. She calls the police to ask for help in America from paramilitary type officers. It's disgusting. And Mika, it goes perfectly into our first story.

Yes, it does. Which is why Republicans get crushed. Why Republicans got crushed in Texas over the past weekend. So what you just focused in on is one of many staggeringly traumatic situations that residents, whether they're undocumented or U.S. citizens are going through, especially in Minneapolis and states that happen to be of a certain Democratic leadership. But Joe, it's early. It's loud, and yet that was worth every word.

Every word you just said, because this is where we are and it is traumatizing a nation. And as you point out, Democrats picked up a stunning victory in a special election runoff for a Texas Senate seat. Taylor Romet flipped the solidly red Senate District 9, which represents Fort Worth and surrounding suburbs, defeating Republican Lee Wamskons by 14 points. President Trump won this district by 17 points back in 2024. This is in part of Tarrin County where no Democrat has won a state Senate seat since 1978. When asked yesterday about the race last night, President Trump claimed you didn't know anything about it.

But as you can see here, he had posted in support of Wamskong three separate Times on social media in the two days leading up to the Saturday election. Florida's Republican Governor Ron DeSantis wrote on social media that special elections are quirky and not necessarily projectable, but he acknowledged that a swing of this magnitude is not something that can be dismissed. And the Wall Street Journal editorial board is writing about this in a piece entitled, Texas election jolt to the GOP, and it reads in part, quote, how does a Republican lose by 14 points in a safe, conservative, Texas state Senate seat that President Trump carried by 17 points in 2024?

Answer, when there's a voter backlash against the Trump administration, notably, it's mass deportation debacles. State politics is often national these days, and the 31-point vote swing in a little more than 14 months can only be explained as part of a rising tide of opposition to Mr. Trump's first year and a sour public mood. Immigration enforcement that turns ugly in the streets is turning off the swing voters. Who will determine who wins the race for Congress this year? It is a staggering win. You notice that some Republicans are taking note.

We heard from Rand Paul on 60 minutes last night, but will more. Senate Republicans realize that this is something they need to take a stand on. That's like, that's like you're asking the question. I know. Will Republicans realize that hitting themselves and the forehead with a ball peen hammer causes their forehead to hurt? I mean, it's this obvious. Wait, I'm going to hit myself with a ball peen hammer again.

That hurts. Well, it's quirky. it's not projectable, so I'm going to hit myself in the head with a ball peen hammer again. No, it hurts. It hurts every time. And like I've said, I'm trying to help the Republicans. I'm trying to help you, help yourself. Yeah. I'm trying to let me, help me, help you. You want, listen. And so what's happening? Well, staying with the Jerry McGuire theme. Well, voters are showing. Democrats the votes. And J-Mart, we've been doing this a long time. Maybe that's why I'm so fired up for having to get up on this cold morning. No, but we've been doing this a long enough time

to realize that, first of all, off-year elections like Virginia, landslide, like a New Jersey landslide, like the California referendum, like the Wisconsin. judges vote. Yeah. Like Fort Worth. We're not talking about a sliver of the richest Dallas suburbs, northern suburbs. We're talking about Fort Worth, Texas. Yes.

And you got Fort Worth and the northern suburbs switching like that. That is all too projectable. But, Jaymart, here's the thing again that I just don't understand. It's all too predictable. Like we got this going on in Minneapolis. Still, Americans getting gunned down in the street. You got wars all over the place or the possibilities of war. The president trying to get $10 billion from his own government. You got these Epstein files dripping and, like this is just for Republicans a nightmare. And they're not doing

anything about it. They are walking over the cliff. Right. Sleepwalking over it, actually. I said three weeks ago that the immigration raids were motivating the left and alienating the center. And fast forward three weeks ago to last Saturday. And you look at this district in Taryn County. And our kiddo went to TCU, no frogs. So we know about Fort Worth. This district is the perfect confluence of what the Republicans challenge is, Joe. It's a district made up of a lot of Republican suburbanites.

and a lot of Hispanic voters, because it's basically the north side of Tarrant County. And so you get Hispanic communities, and you get a lot of upscale Republican communities. They're basically Republicans. But when they're given a lackluster Republican and a good Democrat, who's an Air Force veteran, who works for Lockheed,

which in Fort Worth, it's kind of like working for GM in Detroit. And they have this incredible motivational force, which is the images they're seeing on their phone in their TV screen every day. Well, guess what happens? The Democrats going to win and are going to win significantly. And look, there's a lot of districts around America that are very similar to this in the U.S. House. Significant population of Hispanic or Asian voters and a lot of suburbanites who are in the political center. If you can't win those demographics, you're not keeping the House this fall, period. Yeah, and of course, if you're a Republican, you've got to be looking at this and saying, well, the tragedy is we made

inroads with Hispanics. we haven't made since George W. Bush. They're gone. And they're gone. They are gone. Young voters gone. It's been destroyed this year by these immigration policies mainly. They're gone. And Jonathan Lemire didn't have to be that way. But that's the path. The White House and Republicans by extension have taken. And we're not just talking about a district here. You look at the numbers out of Texas. Like, you look at the swing out of Texas statewide, and we, of course, because I'm a nice guy,

I tried to warn Republicans with the Texas redistricting, and others did too. If you try to trim too close to the bone and you take a 20-point district that's a Republican 20-plus district, and you try to shave it into like three, seven-point plus Republican districts. In good years, good news. But John L. Amir, in bad news, what you actually cause is the opposite effect. And you lose, instead of winning that one seat, you lose those three seats that you've created. And so if you look and some people projected it out, if we continue going in this direction, you've got Republicans getting hammered in the state of Texas. Yeah, they diluted those Republican strongholds there in Texas. And look, we obviously are a long way from November. But there were a lot of Republicans the last few days who have started the second guess some of these redistricting decisions.

And this is a thunder clap. Yes, it's a local race, but it matters. And to what you were just saying with J-Mart, black and Latinos, the gains that the Republicans made there, gone. Young voters gone. Also, we've seen polls in recent days about how even Republicans, like hardcore Republicans, part of the Trump base might be abandoning him, at least for now, over this. And we've also seen no real shift from the administration. Yes, Tom Holman went to Minnesota.

Yes, he said he would talk to the local government there. Well, then he was immediately contracted by the president, who says there won't be a drawdown in Minneapolis. You know, he continues to bash the local officials. You know, he posts over the weekend about, well, we won't send law enforcement unless they ask us to, you know, but we'll see if they have to say, please. But it's unclear what that means. There's no sign, and we just saw that video, no sign that ICE operations have abated anywhere. And John Heilman, as Republicans dig in, Democrats, who came off obviously a very successful

elections last fall, you know, and it said, like, look, our number one issue needs to be the economy. It needs to be affordability. And I think a lot of Democrats are still hitting that. But those I've talked to in the last few days say, well, we've got to be able to do a little bit more than that because these immigration matters. These deportation rates, the images we're seeing. Americans responding to that in a big way. We've got to start talking about that, too.

Yeah, 100%, Jonathan. And before we talk about immigration, I would just like to think about the numbers in this Texas race. You know, you can write off a given off your election as our local election and various things. We were, oh, this is an outlier. You know, if you think back, as we've been talking about here to November, when there were basically a 20-point swing in the New Jersey governor's race versus the presidential race in 2024. Basically a 20-point swing in the New Jersey and the Virginia governor's race.

It's basically the same. Harris won those races by six points. The Democrats then won them by more like 15, 12, 15 points last November. My math is not fantastic, but a 31-point swing, 31 points in the course of 15. months is as dramatic a turn as I've seen, I think. J. Mark, you could correct me whether you've seen other swings that have been greater than that. I mean, you've got to work hard to have a 31 point swing in 15 months.

That is that takes some doing. And I think that the trend is clear. It's getting worse for Republicans, not better. Last November was not an outlier. We are seeing all the signs pushing. towards an absolutely catastrophic wipeout. And to Lemire's point, another sign of how strong those signs are is that Democrats are now doing something that none of us would have ever predicted they would do 15 months ago, which is starting to talk about how they might want to

campaign on immigration. An issue that the Democratic Party has been terrified of, not just since the outcome of the 2024 election, but really throughout the entirety of the Trump era, Democrats have been on the back foot on immigration for a decade, Joe, and now they look up and see what's going on, the stuff that you're rightly infuriated by, and you were talking about at the top of the show. And they say, we may now be in a position where we have the better of this issue, not just in terms of the polls and Trump's numbers being underwater, but where we have an argument to make where we can reclaim immigration as an issue of strength for the Democratic Party as opposed to an issue of weakness. And that is as remarkable as the 31-point turnaround is the fact that there are Democrats starting to think that way 10 months before the mid-term elections. It is a radical shift on an issue. I've only seen it one time in my life. I remember being in the cloak room during a debate on guns. And usually whenever the debate came up on guns and Second Amendment rights, Republicans would run for the hills because they were getting beaten on the issue. And I remember when you had a few old senior Democrats, chairman, get on the floor and talk about the right to keep and bear arms.

And the entire debate shifted. And so last time Republicans up until the past three, four, five years, like, we're nervous about talking about gun rights. And now, of course, they're just talking about being able to shoot people if they carry guns to public events, to rallies, which is just insanity inside the Trump administration, so that sure has shifted. But in this case, Mika, you have Democrats who are now saying, we're going to start talking about immigration at the same time.

There was reporting the people inside the White House. We're suggesting the president last time he went out and gave a speech, gave a rally, to stay away from the issue of immigration. That's where we are right now. The issue has become so devastating for good reason. for the Republican Party that allows, again, what looks like a paramilitary force, what looks like executions in the street of Minneapolis

to a lot of people. There's a good reason why Republicans are getting hammered on this issue at the voting booths across America. So just looking at our rundown for the four hours of morning, Joe, and at 9 o'clock Eastern time, we have state senator-elect Taylor Romet joining us on more. morning, Joe, here. Also, every story we have this morning could be the lead. Lisa Rubin has been standing by with what we're learning from the massive new batch of Jeffrey Epstein documents

released finally by the Justice Department on Friday with a lot of redactions, but still with many, many details and some victims exposed. We'll get into that with Lisa, plus the latest from Capitol Hill as how Speaker Mike Johnson projects confidence about ending the part of the government shut down by tomorrow. And as we go to break, a quick look at the Travelers forecast this morning from Acuethers Bernie Rayno. Bernie, how's it looking? Well, Meeke, in the wake of our weekend snowstorm, it's a tranquil Monday. It's still cold across the Northeast, but your acuether exclusive forecast shows it's not as extreme. We could it freezing in New York City today, 32 degrees in Boston, some flurries in Detroit. A little bit

of freezing drizzle in Chicago. It's cold morning and florists. Florida, still chilly this afternoon with sunshine, and we'll be digging out in the Carolinas over the next couple of days. Your acuether travel forecast here, it's relatively quiet as we're not looking at any rain and snow. To help you make the best decisions and be more in the note, download the acuether app today. I got you, babe. Before I say, thanks to God, I'm going to say eyes out. We're not savage, we're not animals, we're not aliens, we are humans, and we are Americans. It's bad buddy won for album of the year.

He's going to be, of course, performing at the halftime show. Well, people desperately, desperately try to find an alternative show where maybe they don't have to see somebody with brown skin. Good luck with that. Good luck with that. Good luck with that. Good luck with all of your... efforts to help America return to being a country that it never was. Nice, nice little dream you have there of your perfect suburban white America that never even existed in the 50s, but keep living that. So, Mika, you know, I love this country so much. You know how much I love this

country. I believe in America. This is a country that is fed and freed more people across the ages than any other country in the history of humankind. And like Ronald Reagan said, we're a city that shines brightly on the hill for all the world to see. And as Reagan said in this last speech, we invite people. Lady Liberty invites people. to America. Legally, invites people to America to come here and not only create a new world for themselves and their family, but to make us, as Ronald Reagan said, stronger, better, and younger. And he warned us of what would happen when we shut the doors to Lady Liberty, like we're doing right now. And as Reagan said, we will grow older, we will grow poorer, we will grow poorer,

we will grow less strong. So those scenes, though, this weekend, I think that car chase so defines where we are right now as a country. You have an American citizen desperately calling American cops, begging the police officers, calling, calling 911, get the cops here, get the cops here. Why? Because what looks like a, a, a, a, a,

paramilitary force. Look at this. What looks like a paramilitary force from an autocratic regime is just randomly cutting people off and pulling their guns. Do you hear me? Pulling their guns in a way no New York City cop would ever do. They're so unprofessional. And this is so deeply disturbing, just like what looked like executions, and now he's in front of the car again. Good job. Why don't you go home, take off your mask,

and get some training before you come back out into the field? Like, why? Do you know how many images we've seen over the months of these clowns pulling their guns in situations where they didn't need to pull their guns, in situations where trained police officers would never pull their guns, and how they escalate when trained police officers would de-escalate, because that's how they're trained.

You said you wonder, I do at least, how does a massive city, like New York, how does it run as smoothly as it does? And how could it be that there are fewer murders per capita in New York City than just about any other city in America? And that rates of deaths and shootings have gone down to lows so low that they have to like go back to the 50s and estimate, make their best guess. It was this way last year, too, by the way. That's because New York City cops know how to run a city. Yeah, they make mistakes. Just like we in America make mistakes.

Everybody makes mistakes. But they're trained to de-escalate. They're trained to keep the peace, not make war. They're trained not to jump out of the car and pull their guns out and walk in front of the car at a drop of the hat. Mika, it's just, it, this is, I mean, Republicans just need to look at that video. Because again, the lies that you will be told from, from MAGA media is, oh, she's Antifa. Oh, she's lawless. Oh, she's, no, actually, she's calling law enforcement officers to save her from this paramilitary legal looking force.

Like it's an autocratic regime in the Balkans. Yeah. Hey, Joe. It looks like it's straight. Yeah, it looks like it's straight out of the Balkans in the 1990s. Yeah. Jay Mark. I spoke Friday to Janet Napolitano, who, of course, was the secretary for Obama.

The longest serving secretary in the history of this still fairly young agency. She's out at Cal Berkeley, where she was president. and is watching her TV and horror the last few weeks because obviously she understands what it means to run that agency. And we actually ran the Q&A this morning on Politica. I did with her. And she makes an important point, Joe, that you'll appreciate. De Palatano says, you had thousands of ICE agents and about 800 or 900 more from Border Patrol. In a city you can drive across in 15 or 20 minutes that only has 600 officers on its own police force. Right.

So there are five times. You have tripled or quadrupled the law enforcement with federal agents who are wearing civilian uniforms or face masks, who are overwhelming the local PD in a fairly small city geographically. Heavily armed. It's a very frightening equation that's happening there in Minneapolis. And sort of to give you a sense of how bad this is, let alone the state senator race in Texas, S&L made a joke that they had to release. the Epstein files to try and distract from ICE. So let's go to the Epstein files. Friday's release

of millions of pages related to Jeffrey Epstein provided a closer look at his connection to world elites from Hollywood to Washington, Wall Street, to Buckingham Palace and beyond, including many high-profile men who publicly claimed to be disgusted with the convicted sex offender and his close associate and fixer Elaine Maxwell. Let's go through just some of the revelations. President Trump is mentioned more than 1,000 times in the newly released documents reflecting a longstanding social and business connection between the two men. Previous document releases indicated Trump was listed as a passenger on Epstein's jet eight times between 1993 and 1998. And now, the newly released documents include uncorroborated claims about Donald Trump. The White House responding to the Miami Herald referred to a statement on the DOJ website denying any credibility in the accusations against the president. Several other high-profile men are in the documents, including Peter Thiel, who in one of several emails was revealed to write, that was fun. See you in three weeks.

The context of the email exchange is unclear. Bill Gates shows up in an email written by Epstein, where Epstein claims Gates contracted an STD from a, quote, Russian girl, and sought antibiotics to hide it from his wife. A spokesperson for Gates called the claims absurd and completely false. Contrary to what he said publicly, New York real estate mogul, Andrew Farquist, co-owned a marina with Epstein, located near Epstein's Island, and the two exchanged affectionate and crude emails.

The documents reveal Farkas himself also stayed on Epstein's private island. Another revelation, Farkas gave Epstein discounts on docket and services at the marina which served as a gateway to what's known as Epstein's so-called Rape Island. Billionaire Richard Branson shows up in the files too, hosting Epstein twice, in exchanging friendly emails in 2013, joking about Epstein's harem, and giving him advice about rehabilitating his image after Epstein's sex offender conviction. New York Giants co-owner Steve Tisch shows up hundreds of times in this latest tranche of Epstein-related files, mostly in 2013 emails where Epstein is proposing women for Tish to meet, sending photos and bios.

In one exchange, Tish asks if a woman he met at Epstein's home is a, quote, working girl. And Epstein replies, N-W-V-E-R. Then asks for Tish's phone number, saying he doesn't like, quote, records of these conversations. Later, Edstein tells Tish, you did well, and that the woman wants to see a play, but is freaked out about his age. In a statement, Tish wrote in part that he did not take Epstein up on any of his invitation. and never went to his island. The UK's Prince Andrew is shown in never-before-seen photos on a floor on all fours with an unidentified female, along with more exchanges with Epstein, arranging dinners and offering meetings with women, and another where Andrew invites Epstein to come here to BP, referring to Buckingham Palace. Many men whose names are in the documents had publicly and vehemently distanced themselves from the predator, but who are shown to have had seemingly friendly contact with Epstein. That includes a number of men in Donald Trump's orbit and his administration. Elon Musk had said in 2019 that Epstein tried repeatedly to get me to visit his island. I declined. Yet, according to the newly released emails from 2012, he asked, are you coming by helicopter? Probably just Tallulah and me.

What day slash night will be the wildest party on your island? Musk has denied attending that party, nor ever, visiting the island. Trump's Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnik in 2025 publicly described Epstein as gross and the greatest blackmailer ever, and that he had resolved years earlier never to be in the same room with him again, suggesting he had cut ties with Epstein. But according to the newly released documents, Lutnik arranged and carried out a private lunch with Epstein and his family on Epstein's private island. And Trump's newly nominated pick for chair of the Federal Reserve appears to have been invited to one of Epstein's social events. We do not know if he attended.

One other notable? The director of the newly released documentary, Melania. Brett Ratner appears in the newly released documents, including this photo of Ratner on a couch next to Jeffrey Epstein, with Ratner's arm around an unidentified female, and Epstein sitting shoulder to shoulder with another female, both of their faces obscured. Multiple media outlets have reached out to Brett Radner,

who apparently you would think, you don't know, but what you would think would be kind of on a media tour because of this Melania movie. No comment there. That's fascinating. Yeah, Lisa Rubin, you know, You know, we waited, everyone waited six weeks at least to see these documents. Apparently there are more that maybe we'll never see.

These have redactions. And one of the reasons why there was a wait, lawmakers claimed that documents needed to be poured through to protect the victims. And yet, victims were not protected, it appears, in these documents. Tell us about it. No, I mean, I spent a lot of time looking. looking at these documents, and obviously you can't boil the ocean over a weekend. Three million pages is quite a bit. But one of the things I found was I counted the names of more than 40 known and suspected

survivors of Jeffrey Epstein and Glenn Maxwell, just in my cursory review of the documents. And of course, on Friday, one of the first things I found was a driver's license of a known survivor, someone who testified at Glenn Maxwell's trial with her photo completely unredacted, something that Todd Blanche had pledged in his Friday press conference that we would absolutely not see. He told us that photos of every woman except for Glenn Maxwell would be fully unredacted. I'm sorry, fully redacted. And yet this was a driver's license with a woman's picture, fully visible, her name fully visible. And yet someone had taken the time to black out her address.

And Mika, now I can tell you and our viewers, I've had the opportunity to speak with this woman who gave me permission to share her story this morning. Her name is Anushka de Giorgio. She was one of the four women who testified at Glyn Maxwell's trial. And in addition to her driver's license, one of the things that I discovered was handwritten notes from and a typewritten memorandum from a July 2021 meeting she had with prosecutors. And the purpose of that meeting was to assess her credibility

on the stand at Gleine Maxwell's trial by probing her about the most intimate details of her life and background. Things like her romantic history, her history of substance abuse and her subsequent recovery and sobriety, things like the names of her sponsors in recovery and the names of men that she had dated

and so on and so forth. Anushka DeGeorgio found out that these documents were in the public domain because I contacted her lawyer. And on Friday, she received a text from her lawyer notifying her about this. Within 24 hours, she wrote a scathing email to senior leadership at the Southern District of New York.

You'll remember that the Southern District of New York, U.S. Attorney's Office was where Galane Maxwell and Jeffrey Epstein were both prosecuted. They also played a very prominent role in the review of these documents, Anishka DiGiorgio, telling them that they had re-traumatized her and opened up wounds that she had spent years trying to recover from, as well as exposing her to legal, professional, and personal harm by exposing these details about her life. As of yesterday morning, these documents belonging to Anishka de Georgio were removed from the Department of Justice as well. website. But did she get a response from anyone at the Department of Justice? Neither she nor her

lawyers did. And so important, Lisa, to keep the victims front of mind here. So thank you for doing that. Let's talk, though, about, you know, about three million documents were dropped. There's another about three million, we believe, that are still out there. Talk to us about whether you think we'll ever see those. Yeah, when will we see those? And the fact that there are so many questions raised. You know, a lot of people spend a lot of time sifting through these over the weekend. There's some, like, really outlandish, salacious stuff in there. We don't know if it's true or not. There doesn't need to be more investigations coming, and it's just going to raise far more questions about what we don't know now and may never will. Let's start with, are we going to see more drops of documents?

At least according to the Deputy Attorney General, Todd Blanche, we are not going to. He said that the department, in addition to producing nearly three million pages, was also withholding another three million pages for a variety of reasons. Those include reasons that are permitted by statute, including for the protection of these victims. But he also took the liberties to say that they had withheld documents for reasons that the law does not permit. And that includes where the department believes that they are privileged documents. What does that mean? If they reflect internal conversations at the Department of Justice that are reflective of internal decision making,

or they think they're attorney client communications or attorney work product, that will be the basis, according to Mr. Blanche, for withholding or redacting scores of documents that we may never see. Now, we know that in these documents are some of the things that people like Rokana and Thomas Massey, two of the leaders pressing for the passage of this Epstein Files Transparency Act, most wanted to see. What am I talking about? The draft prosecution memo, the draft indictment that was written in Florida in 2007, 2008, where prosecutors were prepared to charge Jeffrey Epstein with 30-plus federal counts based on the experiences of 19 women. But there are still, in the files today, Jonathan, lots of women whose names are visible.

I checked last night for others of the victim's names still there. And of course, there is no enforcement mechanism for Congress. Mr. Blanche stood up before everyone and said, if members of Congress want to see some more of these materials, including unredacted, we'll give them access to it. But if I'm a member of the House Oversight Committee, I'm scratching my head right now thinking, isn't that the very thing that I've had a subpoena outstanding for months to get?

Why is it that the department couldn't be responsive to our citizens? subpoena, and only now, after dumping millions of pages, they'll tell us that it's accessible to us to look for the needle in a haystack. That doesn't quite seem just or fair. Joe. Lisa, I'm just curious. Is there any legal remedy for people who want to see what the Justice Department is claiming to be privileged and whether their definition of privileged is just protecting powerful people inside their administration? Well, I think, Joe, there are of two different things that can be done. One is that the House Oversight Committee can take some legal measures to try and enforce its subpoena. And that subpoena was fairly open-ended with respect to

what it was calling for. But with respect to the enforcement of the Act, that's going to be considerably more difficult. It's very hard for members of Congress individually or even as a committee to sue to get anybody to do something with respect to congressional enactment. Those are not cases that courts typically recognize unless the entire body of Congress wants to get together behind the Speaker of the House and the majority leader of the Senate and pass two resolutions on both sides of the Hill saying that they will sue as an entire Congress to enforce this. I don't see a legal mechanism short of maybe holding somebody in contempt that would do that. And of course, the very same Department of Justice that's not complying is the Department of Justice that would be the one to bring contempt proceedings against anyone for noncompliant. I mean, Jay Mard and John Heilman, kind of another challenge to the public trust in the DOJ and the Trump administration. You had even the Attorney General seen over the weekend speaking with great emphasis and great anger about we're going to come after you about Don Lemon.

Well, I think those two things are related, by the way. I think because DOJ is so, you know, burden to put all these. Epstein documents in the public eye. They know Trump hates it. Every dump he hates, right. And because they can't land indictments, John, on Schiff, on Tish James and on other Trump targets, Comey, for example, they're now overcompensating in other areas. Oh, we can get Don Levin. He's part of the left. That'll be good for our base. Yeah. Let's find a grand jury to bring charges against him. Who else we got out there that we can get a big headline for? I would think the Attorney General would be interested in the victims of Jeffrey Epstein,

which is something she was touting. She's trying to keep her job, Mika, because Trump has publicly told her she's not delivering the goods on the indictments he wants. So every day, every week, she's trying to give him headlines of folks that he doesn't like, whether it's Don Lemon or somebody else, to buy herself time. At the same time, her department is releasing all this data about Epstein, which he hates. Yeah. John Heilman.

Well, you know, I agree with everything Jamar just said. I'd also say that, you know, the, you know, the, you know, The whole thing is, and the politics of it are this, this, another self-inflicted wound in this particular respect. One of the great advantages of having an independent Department of Justice and the independent FBI is that it creates a certain kind of political insulation for the president of the United States. You basically say, well, my DOJ is doing this. I don't have anything to do with that. They're making up their minds. It gives you a kind of comfortable distance.

one of the problems with Trump for Trump of having totally taken over the DOJ and the FBI and having those agencies operating a way they've never operated before in any of our lifetimes, which is just as a political instrument of the government of the administration is that there's no distance for Trump, right? He has to, he instead of benefiting from the distances, every other president has, they sometimes get frustrated with their DOJs, that he has, he owns it now, right? So all of that residual frustration that victims are feeling in this Epstein case, everybody who feels as though there's still stonewalling going on and there is that they're not complying with the law and they aren't. All of those people, there's no way in which Trump can say, well, I don't have anything to do with that.

That just doesn't pass the smell test for anybody. Yeah. Because it's quite evident about what the DOJ and the FBI do is exactly what Donald Trump says, nothing more, nothing less. And what did we hear? I mean, for the first two or three years of Merrick Garland's time at DOJ, the left just absolutely crushing him politically saying that he was too weak. They weren't talking about Biden. They were talking about Merrick Garling because it was Merritt Garland's DOJ, despite the fact that right-wing loans, of course, that talk about putting the Biden crime family. How rich is that on an island off of Gitmo?

they didn't blame Biden on the left. They actually blamed that. They can't do that now. Mika, just to answer your question, though, I want you to think about it because all of this is connected. You know, the line, you can connect all of the dots here. Look at the people who, a couple of months ago, White House reporters were quietly saying,

this person's in trouble with the president. Pam Bondi, in trouble with a president. She can't get the indictments to stick, right? So what does she do? Now she's going after Don Lemon. What do we hear? Tulsi Gabbardt left out of everything. Like she's another person we heard, oh, she's on her way out.

So what does she do? She goes down and runs this seizure of voting files in the state of Georgia, hoping that she will get back in the president's. good graces. It's all job security. It's all job security. And J. Mark, two months ago, we were hearing that Christy Noem, I'm not saying you, I was, that Christy Noem's job was on the line. She was going to be replaced by Glenn Yonkin. That was two months ago. So what does she do? She turns up the heat and she actually makes a bad situation that much worse. So whether you're looking at Pam Bondi, like using the Justice Department to a rather,

a reporter covering, you know, that protest inside the church, or whether you're talking about the seizure of Georgia voting files, talk about disturbing. You know, this is all job security. They're trying to get the president to cast a positive look their way. Right. What does daddy want? What does he like? And we have to placate him, give him what he wants. And by the way, the peril in that show, as you allude to, is that Noam thought that he wanted the Stephen Miller hard line. It turns out Donald Trump wants something else. He only wants good coverage. He doesn't actually have a true Northon policy.

He just wants good coverage. And so she went for the hard line that Miller wanted. It turns out that wasn't what Trump wanted because once the coverage turned to Minneapolis, she had a different problem on her hands. It wasn't that she wasn't delivering enough. It was that she was delivering too much. So you can never totally please Trump because he's so fickle and all he actually craves is good coverage for himself. I mean, they work for the American people.

It might be good to remember that. Oh, they don't think they do. Some might be looking for an attorney general who says, when a network of powerful men rape, thousands of young girls were coming after you. That would work, probably even for the base. John Howman, Jonathan Martin. Thank you both very much.

MS now senior legal reporter Lisa Rubin. I know you'll be back tomorrow with much more. Thank you very much for your help and your coverage with this. Coming up, New York Governor Kathy Hokel joins us to discuss her push to keep police in her state from partnering with ICE. Plus, my conversation with the First Lady of California. We're back in two minutes.