Morning Joe - ‘Depressing spectacle’: GOP lawmakers don’t ask AG Bondi tough rule-of-law questions at hearing

Episode Date: October 8, 2025

‘Depressing spectacle’: GOP lawmakers don’t ask AG Bondi tough rule-of-law questions at hearing Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

This is supposed to be an oversight hearing. Oversight? These, excuse me, you can attack me after my time is over. Oh, we've attacked all of us, including President Trump for your entire career. And I know you've got plenty of canned attacks. We've heard them all day to day. Can't attacks on you? This is supposed to be, excuse me, regular order, Madam Chair, I'm trying to speak.

This is supposed to be an oversight hearing of the Justice Department. Just a small sample of a combative Senate hearing. yesterday for Attorney General Pam Bondi. We'll have more of the big moments for you straight ahead, a lot of that. Plus, we'll preview the arraignment later this morning for former FBI director James Comey. Also ahead, we'll go through the significant staffing issues at major airports delaying hundreds of flights. It's a ripple effect of the government shutdown, which is in its second week. And now the Trump administration is threatening to deny back pay. for federal employees who have been furloughed.

And we'll bring you the highlights from the MLB playoffs as Yankee star Aaron Judge helped keep the season alive with a big Willie home run. Oh, look, he's happy. Off the foul ball. Save the day, huh? I had the same thought as he watched that. Fisk like, yeah.

Fiske like. Fair ball. That's blasphemous. So, Mika, the Yankees go down 6'1 in this game after having been completely embarrassed and blown out in the first two games, facing elimination, little by little comeback. Then Judge comes up with two guys on.

It's that home run off the foul pole, as he said after the game, the ghosts of Monument Park pulling it toward that pole to keep it fair. Ties the game, makes a great diving catch later. Jazz Chisholm hits the go-head home run. Yankees are alive. I can feel the excitement at this table. It's palpable from the Red Sox fans. Everyone hopping on board, America's team, the New York Games.

All right. Yankees go and do tonight with momentum now. Not only they come back, look, they look dead last night. They came back and they rallied. But more than that, they're still at home tonight. And the Blue Jays don't have a starting pitcher. The Blue Jays, it's a bullpen game for them all along, and they taxed a bunch of their relievers yesterday.

Jays might be gassed. Yankees set up well to send it to a game five. And, Mike, they've got the kid going, the rookie Schlitler, who was so great against the Red Sox last week. Walpole zone. Damn. Yes. Wallpole Massachusetts.

This basically, is Vlad versus Judge this series. Every game is different, whether Toronto is tired, whether they have lack of pitching tonight, which they do. Every game is different at this time of the year. It's like the World Series, every game. This was a pivotal play, by the way. The left fielder, as Smoltsy said last night,

should have called him off and made that catch. But open up. Look at this Superman slide, me. Just a full dive. You're just a full guy. What a night. It's like Pete Rose. So it should be a great game tonight.

We'll see back in the Bronx. If Schlittler can do it again one more time, that anything goes game five in Toronto in a couple days. Much more in sports. It's Wednesday, October 8th. With us, we have U.S. special correspondent for BBC News, and the host of the rest is Politics Podcast, Caddy Kay, and Politics Bureau Chief and Senior Political Communist at Politico,

Jonathan Martin, here in the studio. How did you get in? I got a passport. Uh-huh. Okay, you in Barnacle. It was all in. Stumbling in. All right. It's good to have you. Thanks me. We appreciate it. Attorney General Pam Bondi testified before the Senate Judiciary Committee yesterday, resulting in several contentious exchanges with Democrats on the committee. I'm not sure what was accomplished. We'll try and figure that out here. At several points, Bondi launched into personal attacks against many of them when they accused her of deflecting or refusing to answer their questions. Specifically, Democrats asked Bondi about National Guard deployments and immigrant arrests in U.S. cities.

President Trump directing prosecutions of his political enemies, including the indictment of former FBI Director James Comey, and files related to Jeffrey Epstein, among other issues. They are going to transfer Texas National Guard units to the state of Illinois. What's the rationale for that? Yeah, Chairman, as you shut down the government, you voted to shut down the government. and you're sitting here, our law enforcement officers aren't being paid. They're out there working to protect you. I wish you love Chicago as much as you hate President Trump.

Why did you publicly claim to have the Epstein client list waiting for your review and then produce nothing relevant to that claim? If you listen to my entire clip on that, I said I had not reviewed it yet, that it was sitting on my desk. Who gave the order to flag records related to President Trump? I'm not going to discuss anything about that. with you. Eventually, you're going to have to answer for your conduct in this. You won't do it today, but eventually you will. Attorney General Bondi is a simple yes-no question. Do you believe that

government officials like Gregor Bovino are obligated to follow applicable court orders, whether they agree with them or not yes or no? First, Senator Padilla, you have gone on for over five minutes, and I wish that you loved your state of California as much as you hate. President Trump would be in really good shape then, because violent crime in California is currently 35 percent higher than the national average. I do want to go back to Homan. You know, there's a tape, right, with Mr. Homan? I mean, first of all, is there a tape that has audio and video of the transfer of the 50,000?

You would have to talk to Director Patel about that. No, I'm talking to you. I don't know the answer, Senator. Yet you do know the answer to that. Don't call me a liar. I didn't call you a liar. You just said I know the answer. I said I don't know the answer.

Well, what became of the $50,000 in cash that the FBI paid to Mr. Homan in a paper bag, evidently? Senator, as Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanche recently stated, The investigation of Mr. Holman was subjected to a full review by the FBI, agents, and DOJ prosecutors. They found no credible evidence of any wrongdoing. And that was not my question. My question was, what became of the $50,000 in cash that the FBI delivered evidently in a paper bag to Mr. Holman? Senator, I'd look at your facts. I can see I'm not going to get a straight answer from you to a very simple question.

FBI agents and the DOJ. They found no credible evidence of wrongdoing. You know, you're very concerned about money and people taking money and you rail against dark money. Wait a second. Wait a second. Wait a second. Wait a second. You work with dark money groups all the time. Senator, I would be more concerned if I were you when you talk about corruption and money that you, that when you pushed for legislation that would subsidize your wife's company. The questions here are actually pretty specific.

So having you respond with completely irrelevant far-right Internet talking points really is not very helpful here. Did you discuss James Comey with the President of the United States? He was sitting just to your left. Well, two seats down. Yes, two seats down. And I am not going to discuss any conversations I've had or not have with the President of the United States. is entitled to know. I think it's valuable that the American people

get a sense of what you've refused to answer today. So these are just some of the questions you refuse to answer, or have answered with personal attacks on members of this committee. You were asked whether you consulted with career ethics lawyers, as you promised you would do during your nomination hearing, when you approve the president receiving a $400 million gift from the Qataris.

You refused to answer that question. You are asked who or what role you may have played or who played the role in asking that Trump's name be flagged in any of the Epstein documents gathered by the FBI. You refused to answer that question. You were asked whether Holman kept the $50,000 bribe money. You refused to answer that question. You were asked whether Holman paid taxes on the $50,000 bribe money. You refused to answer that question. You were asked, did career prosecutors find insufficient evidence to charge James Comey?

You refused to answer that question. You were asked, how are military strikes on these boats in the Caribbean legal? And you refused to even answer that question. Do you have a law degree, excuse me, excuse me, you are asked, did you discuss indicting James Comey with the president? You refused to answer that question. You were asked, did you approve the firing of antitrust lawyers who disagreed with the Hewlett-Packard merger? You refused to answer that question. You were asked whether you support a restoration fund for violent insurrections who attacked the capital on January 6th.

You refused to answer that question. You were asked whether you were firing career professionals, career prosecutors, just because they worked on January 6th question, January 6 investigations. You refused to answer that question. you were asked by my California colleague whether you believe government officials like immigration officials have to abide by court orders you wouldn't even answer that question this is supposed to be an oversight here these excuse me you can attack me after my time is over you've attacked all of us including president trump for your entire career and I know you've got plenty of canned attacks we've heard them all day to day can't attacks on you this is supposed to

No one needs a canned attack on you. Regular order, Madam Chair, I'm trying to speak. This is supposed to be an oversight hearing of the Justice Department. And it comes in the wake of an indictment called for by the president of one of his enemies. This is supposed to be an oversight hearing, and it comes in the wake of revelations that a top administration official took $50,000 in a bag. I mean, there's that, too, the bag thing. I mean, there's a lot of great questions yesterday. Absolutely, someone correct me, zero answers, zero.

Oh, go ahead, Mike. I would just say it's in the context of she was speaking to an audience of one, Donald Trump, and she had a very successful day in doing that, I would submit. At fact, that's the only reason, Mike, that she goes up there. I'm convinced that at some point these cabinet folks are going to stop going to Capitol Hill testify, unless Trump wants them to keep doing it because she's not having a good time up there. And you're totally right. The only reason they do go is to launch the counterattack. And Trump loves that. In fact, I was talking recently to somebody who served in the first Trump term,

said, this person got a call after doing one of those hearings. You were great up there. It was fantastic. You really gave it back to that. Oh, my gosh. So you're totally right. That is the only reason they're still going up there because Trump does watch those clips later and judges them by how hard they attacked. And that's what they all do. Hegzith has done it. Bobby Kennedy Jr. has done it. And now Attorney General Bondi did it yesterday. It's worth reminding everyone in this moment in our nation's history that the Justice Department is supposed to be independent from the executive branch. It's not an arm of the Ovaloff. It's not a tool of the White House. But all we saw yesterday, Jonathan Lemire, was an attorney general who truly would receive a question,

look down at her notes based on who the senator was, and launch back with some totally unrelated attack on their record or their character or whatever it was to defend the president of the United States. And you could tell she was gleeful every time she got to use his name and say, you've attacked Donald Trump. You've been mean to Donald Trump, et cetera, et cetera. That's all she was doing there, not answering questions and an oversight hearing. No, it's long been a concern of Democrats that the Attorney General acts like the personal lawyer of the President of the United States. Last yesterday, the Attorney General seemed to embrace that title and acted like she was the personal lawyer for the President of the United States. I mean, you just went through it every single line,

canned attack lines, as the Senator Schiff said, and just spinning it back, answered no questions whatsoever, even plain ones deferring to the FBI director of Cash Patel about the Tom Holman situation. Well, she's Cash Patel's boss. Like, she, of course, has been briefed on this. She, of course, knows the answer in this. She was obstinate, and she didn't want to answer any questions. And left leaving a lot, obviously, for Democrats to work with there. But it's also just such a depressing spectacle for all of us. I mean, I think, look, deflated. Yeah, yeah. I mean, Democrat senators did their jobs. No, I think they did their jobs. I mean, could there have been, we can all criticize whether the, how they deliver their questions or whether there should

have been more charisma involved. But like, they did their job that asked pretty substantive questions. And I thought Senator Schiff did a good job outlining the things that she didn't answer. That was a good recap there at the end. And she was unfazed. She didn't participate in what is part of the job. And it's another sign that this. presidency, the executive branch, does not think it has a co-equal branch with the legislature or the courts. Well, the clip that didn't exist because it never happened is Republicans on the panel asking any skeptical questions about her whatsoever. And that stands in stark contrast to a month ago. Only Kennedy a little on Epstein. That was it. But a month ago, when you had Bobby Kennedy

up there, he did face a barrage of hostile questions when he was testifying before a different committee, which tells you what the Republicans on the Hill are feeling back home. right? The Kennedy stuff on vaccines and such, it's a little too far. But on the rule of law questions, which in some ways is the most concerning Trump transgression to date, apparently these folks don't hear about it from people at all back home, because if they did, you would have heard at least some pushback besides Epstein. Right. The Epstein issue is one that's breaks through on the right. It breaks through on the right in a big way. Let's bring in MSNBC Justice and Intelligence correspondent Ken Delaney and the host of way too early, MSNBC Senior Capitol Hill

correspondent Ali Vitale. Ken, first of all, what should these look like? Although, listen, all of this is on the record. I think it's valuable. I wouldn't stop doing this. And I think it's valuable for any concerned citizen who's interested in these issues to see how the Attorney General answers or does not answer these questions. But what also is the recourse?

Because a lot of the members of the panel said you will answer at a later date in a different venue. You will answer. You're not answering now, but you will be answering. How so? Well, the recourse, Mika, good morning, is for Democrats to win some elections and gain some power back, at least in one branch of Congress, so that they can force some answers or at least force some document production with subpoena power, which they don't have right now. they're essentially powerless. And you saw that on display. I think you guys nailed it in this

discussion. This was a depressing, a sad moment for the United States. It was the death knell of congressional oversight for this administration. It was this administration, as you said, thumbing its nose at Congress after thumbing its nose at the judiciary. And, you know, Jonathan talked about the fact that on the rule of law questions, the Republicans are nowhere to be found. That's surprising because we know that not all of these Republicans are on board with everything that this Justice Department is doing privately. But I think the answer to why that is, it speaks to what happened in another part of the hearing. It's about the right-wing propaganda machine that grinds on and on and accuses the FBI and the Justice Department of having been

weaponized and politicized in the last administration. And you had this bizarre episode where Josh Hawley and other senators, but Josh Hawley in particular, claimed that his phones had been tapped by the FBI, which was a lie. And he's a lawyer, he knows better, based on a document that Charles Grassley released that showed that Jack Smith and his investigation obtained the tolling records of some U.S. senators, Republican U.S. senators, as he was trying to investigate who Donald Trump was calling during the January 6th attacks in an effort to delay the certification. So it was part of it as an investigation. He made clear in his report why he did it, and he explained that he went to the public integrity section and followed the Justice Department

manual. But before we could, regular reporters who cover the beat, it could even sort all of that out, there were stories all over the right-wing media that said essentially Biden, FBI, spied on senators. And millions of people believe it, unquestionably, and all the constituents of these senators believe it. And so that's what's propelling, I think, this utter lack of Republican skeptical questions of Pam Bondi as she thumbs her nose at senators and reads from APO research and doesn't answer a single question. And just because we broke the Homan story here at MSNBC, I'll just say that of all the questions that she didn't answer, that for me was the most frustrating because, you know, she can credibly say, I'm not going to discuss my

conversations with the president or I'm not going to discuss a pending criminal investigation. This is closed. There's nothing, there's no reason she can't talk about the Homan matter. There's no reason she can't say whether he took the $50,000, what happened to it? Did he keep it? Did he pay taxes on it? Why was the investment? investigation closed. She could answer those questions, but she is choosing not to, and I think the reasons are obvious to all of us, guys. And in fact, when she was asked by Senator Maisie Hirono of Hawaii about, in detail, about that $50,000 bag allegedly given to Tom Homan, she said, are you a member of Antifa was her comeback? She cited some rally where Senator Hirono had been.

So she's not only not answering the question, but just turning to whatever her prepared attack was. Allie Vitale, you were up there on Capitol Hill yesterday. She was, asked by the Attorney General's asked by Senator Klobuchar about the weaponization of her department, about Pam Bondi, perhaps helping President Trump go after some of his perceived enemies. To that end, today we're going to see James Comey arraigned in a federal courthouse in Virginia. What was some of the reaction coming out of that hearing yesterday as you talked to senators? Look, senators were flummoxed on the Democratic side because of all of the reasons that you guys laid out about how different this was in tone and tenor from the way

we are used to seeing cabinet officials and top administration officials go to Capitol Hill for Congress to do its job of oversight. This isn't some fun thing that they do as an extracurricular activity. Like, this is a central function for these senators and for lawmakers broadly on Capitol Hill. And so even as I was listening yesterday, the hard news was hard to find, frankly. There was only one point where I thought, okay, that's something new I hadn't learned before. And it was the fact that Cash Patel was going to Chicago. The more lasting news, I think, is what all of you have touched on this morning, which is that it's not new to see fiery hearings on the Hill, but it is very much new to see a permission structure and one that even

encourages cabinet members to go to the Hill and try to embarrass lawmakers from the opposing party, because that was what happened at multiple points there. And it's why I asked Senator Cory Booker, after he finished questioning the Attorney General, what he thought of the way that she was lashing out in prepared ways at his Democratic colleagues. Watch. I do want to ask you about the way that you were conducting your questions to the attorney general. I thought with you, she actually answered the substance of your questions, but with many of your colleagues, it seemed like she came ready with lines of attack of her own. What do you make of this trend, the tone and tenor that we've seen from Trump administration officials coming up here to testify as you guys are doing your job of oversight? Yeah, I've never seen kind of personal attacks, Cash Patel, just not even coming out of the block, sort of attacking senators in a very personal manner.

That's not the way it should be done. a responsibility, actually as spelled out in the Constitution, to preside oversight and checks and balances. It's really unfortunate because everybody in that room wants to see violent crime go down. And we have real questions about using the Department of Justice as an arm of the president, as his personal attorneys, to prosecute his personal political vendettas, to pull people away from the kind of crimes that we once solved and instead focus on people like Comey and other political targets of his. And he's not hiding it. He's being very open. He's literally tweeting at the Attorney General of the United States of America telling her to take out my enemies in a

prosecutorial manner. Allie, what's interesting talking to people who have known Pam Bondi for a long time. And we've had Dave Adamberg on the program. I remember when Pam Bondi was first nominated as the Attorney General saying, actually, you know what? She's somebody who has a reputation for being very feisty, but she's fair and she has a history of working in a bipartisan and manner. I'm wondering what Governor Jeff Bush, who she worked with as well, is thinking about that performance. What is, do you think it's just a prerequisite of doing that job now, that she has to go up there? And does that suggest that she felt she was on thin ice and needed to put on that particular performance, given her history for Donald Trump?

I think for all of the cabinet secretaries, thin ice or not, we've seen them come up, even just in the last few weeks. It's RFK Jr. It's Cash Patel coming up and showing an initial combativeness, declining to answer substantive questions that are asked, I think, largely in good faith by lawmakers who are trying to conduct oversight. I think for Bondi, it's true of most of the people that we've seen go into the Trump administration. They know what it takes to survive, especially in this second iteration. In the first term, it became clear quite quickly, as Leavir and others of us were covering this every day, that it made sense to play to an audience of one. I think that's only become more true in this second term as the shackles are off.

And they do feel, I think, unfettered by the norms of Washington that in some ways hemmed them in the first term. Now we're seeing them be quite clear in flaunting things like a revenge agenda. The president, of course, making that tweet to Pam Bondi saying, Pam, addressing her by her first name. I mean, it's something that senators yesterday seized on to directly. At one point, one of them asked her the rather obvious question of, are you Pam? And she said, yeah, I'm sure I am. But the fact that there wasn't more pushback to that, to the Attorney General, receiving marching orders from the president when they are, as Willie said, quite rightly, supposed to be independent entities of each other. It's striking. So, Candelaney and I mentioned James Comey as we talk about the context of all of this, that the President of the United States either directly or indirectly ordering the Justice Department to go after his perceived enemies.

Comey will be at that federal courthouse in Alexandria, Virginia. I know you're headed there today. expect to see. It's going to be a short hearing, Willie, a pro forma hearing. Really, the only thing that's new, and it's interesting, actually, is that we've learned that two prosecutors, two assistant U.S. attorneys from North Carolina have come in and signed on to the case, which suggests that nobody, no career prosecutor in the Eastern District of Virginia where this case was indicted is willing to go into court and bring this case. So that's really remarkable. It comes after firing after Donald Trump forced out the U.S. attorney that he appointed who didn't want to bring the case and brought in, as we know, his former defense lawyer and insurance lawyer who's never

tried a criminal case as the U.S. attorney. She pushed it forward to the grand jury. And so now today James Comey's going to go into court. We believe he's going to have a chance to plead not guilty. The charges will be read. There'll be arrangements made for his release. He'll be booked probably at a different point, but by the FBI potentially fingerprinted. which is kind of an extraordinary moment for a former FBI director. And then the fight begins. It'll be interesting to see whether James Comey, who was represented by Patrick Fitzgerald,

a well-known figure in legal circles. He was a special counsel. He's a longtime prosecutor. Interesting to see whether Comey makes any public statements. He's already sort of responded via Instagram. In that video, many of us have seen where he says he's sad for the Justice Department, but he welcomes a trial in this matter because he knows that he's innocent. And so that's where we stand, guys.

MSNBC Justice and Intelligence correspondent. Ken Delanian, thank you very much. We'll be watching that as it happens. And still ahead on Morning Show, the government shutdown, having an effect on air travel. We'll go through which major airports could be impacted today. Plus, Democrats have an unexpected ally in the fight to extend health care tax credits, Marjorie Taylor Green, who is doubling down on her push for the subsidies. You're watching Morning, Joe.

We will be right back. It's very early in Los Angeles. 3.26 in the morning. Airport staffing issues continue to disrupt travel across the country. The FAA's website shows ground stops and delays possible today at several of the country's major airports, It's a clear into flight aware. Over 3,500 flights were delayed yesterday as air traffic controllers are being forced to work without pay during the government shutdown.

The FAA reports major hubs in Atlanta, Boston, Chicago, Dallas, and Houston, all of had problems with staffing. There also was a brief ground stop yesterday at Nashville's International Airport, delaying flights there by an average of two hours. As for the shutdown, eight days in and still no end in sight, Democrats still demand to action between. taken now on tax credits for Obamacare premium. Speaking on the Senate floor yesterday, Democratic Senator Patty Murray of Washington outlined the 10 states that will see the highest increases in health insurance premiums if ACA tax credits expire. In the top five states, which include West Virginia, Wyoming, Alaska, Tennessee, and Mississippi, premiums will more than quadruple. premiums are also expected to more than triple in other states, including Texas, South Carolina, and Alabama.

All 10 are considered to be red states. That's perhaps explaining why Republican Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Green of Georgia doubled down yesterday. On her break with GOP leadership over health care subsidies amid the government shutdown, Green slammed her party, claiming Republicans did not have a plan on health care, arguing the GOP, should be working to fix the problem now instead of using the issue as political leverage. Green criticized the GOP's lack of action in an interview yesterday, saying in part, quote, when it comes to the point where families are spending anywhere from 1,500 to 2,000 a month, and looking at hikes coming on their insurance premiums, I think that's unforgivable.

The far-right congresswoman broke with the party on Monday after posting on social media that her adult children who are covered by the Affordable Care Act will see their premiums double if the issue is not addressed. House Speaker, Mike Johnson, pushed back yesterday when asked about Green's remarks regarding the health care issue at the center of the shutdown. Congresswoman Green does not serve on the committees of jurisdiction that deal with those specialized issues.

And she's probably not read in on some of that because they've still been sort of in their silos. the people who specialize in those issues. When we get the conference back and when everybody's back together, we'll go through a lot of that. I mean, I've spoken personally to a number of members in the last three days, Republicans, from the most conservative member to the more moderate member with their various ideas on that.

There's a lot of work that's been done on that. It's implied as if this has been some sort of ignored issue. It's not that at all. Well, then what is it? Green fired back claiming Johnson has not. reached out to discuss her concerns. Jaymart, there's an accusation that this, you know, the Republicans are using this for political leverage. What's the leverage of people having skyrocketing insurance premiums? I don't understand it. I think they want to fix the issue

of the Obamacare premiums. They don't want to do it, though, in a way that is seen as sort of caving to Democratic demand. So there's this standoff, but it's a lot of theater. I think when the government does come back, there's going to be some kind of a fix on those premiums, precisely, Mika, for the reasons that you laid out on the screen, because all those states that are the hardest hit are all red America and all have GOP senators. But what MTG did there was hand the Democrats a gift yesterday. I'm sorry, hand Republicans a gift, because it shows the lack of unity and Republican ranks on the issue. And that obviously is a huge help to Democrats right now. Also, don't forget Trump yesterday saying, we're not sure if folks are going to get back

pay after all. devastating to federal employees who were counting on that back with that military military so don't deserve it he said federal workers which is totally off message here so i thought yesterday was to date one of the best political days for democrats during the shutdown because you have mtg breaking ranks on health care and then trump doing his trump thing which is totally off message yeah and not giving back back pay that would be illegal like that would be illegal it's not gloss over that it's not gloss over that um and certainly to this point the president has not followed through on their threats to the mass firings, the Ross vote firings.

Again, there's questions about the legality of that either, but to this point, he's held that off. Ali Vitale, I don't think we should say Marjorie Taylor Green, welcome to the resistance. But I do think that we are seeing moments here, a few cracks in the Republican facade. You know, there's been reporting last night. I've talked to folks in the Hill, and I know you are so well-sourced there, that there's a little bit of uneasiness that Trump, Thune, Johnson, aren't totally. singing from the same hymn book anymore in terms of how to do this. And mostly it's because the Democrats, the pressure they're putting in on health care on these subsidies seems to be

working. Yeah, I do think that it's working because the way that I see it, as much as votes aren't moving from, you know, yes to no or vice versa, what has moved is this debate over not if health care should be negotiated at this moment, but when. That's the debate that lawmakers are actively having right now. Republicans are saying it's after the shutdown. Democrats are saying it has to be right now. That is moving the Overton window, and that's because Democrats held their leverage on this. When it comes to the Marjorie Taylor Green of it all, I did have a Democratic staffer joke with me yesterday. What do you mean? We've always loved Marjorie Taylor Green. I mean, I do think they are feeling a little bit of the political

whiplash. But what she's saying tracks with the polling that shows that nearly seven and ten Republicans want to see ACA subsidies negotiated here and that health care is a broader issue of concern that doesn't just tack between the typical party lines. I think that's really important. And it goes back to something that I asked the speaker in my interview, which is something that all of us know so well, I do think that there's a possibility that Donald Trump, in his constant quest to make a deal, sees the political daylight on this more quickly than lawmakers on the hill and ultimately says, yeah, we're going to do a deal on this and kind of sells them out. And so I asked the speaker, would you work against the president if he said,

I want to do a deal on ACA subsidies? And of course, Johnson said, well, that's not really the question at hand right now, but it kind of sounds like it's getting to the point where it is. Yeah, which is why I went, yeah. I was going to say that this is why their Republican leaders in Congress were so concerned about Trump meeting privately with Democrats, because they knew if Trump was in the room alone with Schumer and Jeffries, he'd sign off on whatever deal that they offered. That's why they desperately wanted food and Johnson in the room for adult supervision with Trump. Caddy Kay. Sorry. Yeah, but it gets also to this question of affordability, which is did what the Democrats, whether it's in the New York mayor or race or around the country know that

they can run on. I think that's why Marjorie Taylor Green's tweet was so telling is because you have so many Americans. My adult kids are in the same position. They have their own health care through the ACA. If these premiums have pulled, then if these credits are pulled, then their premiums are going to go up too. So I think that is something that really resonates around the country. And you get the sense that Republicans are now feeling that because it's part, it's not just a health care issue. It's part of this affordability issue that's so many Americans are faced with. And for Marjorie Taylor Green, Mika, this is just old-fashioned constituent services.

Right. Her constituents benefit from the Affordable Care Act. They are going to lose coverage or see their premiums double or quadruple. She's looking out, and we all have our problems with Marjorie Taylor Green. In this case, she's looking out for her constituents. And Jay Moore pointing out that yesterday it was a great day for Democrats, and all they had to do was go like this. Exactly.

Because the wins were just the behavior on the Republican side. the choices being made here. And honestly, the threats of yanking the pay from federal workers, yeah, Democrats can just sit there and watch that happen because that would be devastating politically. I don't get it, but we will follow it and see where it leads us. MSNBC Senior Capitol Hill Correspondent Ali Vitale. Thank you very much.

Senior Political Communist at Politico, Jonathan Martin. Thank you as well. And coming up on Morning Joe, our next guest says, the October 7th terror attack on Israel was enabled by years of intelligence and strategic failures. The former editor-in-chief of the Jerusalem Post, Yaakov Katz, joins us to discuss how he says Hamas surprised the most powerful military in the Middle East. Morning Joe, we'll be right back. Very close to making a deal on the Middle East. East that will bring peace to the Middle East. After all of these years of millions and millions,

tens of millions of people being killed, there's a chance to bring peace to the Middle East. That was President Trump at the White House yesterday discussing the ongoing negotiations in Egypt designed to bring an end to the war in Gaza. A U.S. delegation led by the special envoy to the Middle East, Steve Whitkoff, is expected to join talks in Egypt today. Egypt's Foreign Minister says negotiations right now are focused on establishing a ceasefire and hostage exchange, as well as negotiations around how a phased Israeli withdrawal from Gaza would play out. Part of that process would also include the full and unconditional delivery of humanitarian aid to Gaza through the United Nations.

But it's now former editor-in-chief and columnist for the Jerusalem Post, Yaakov Katz. He is the co-author of the new book, While Israel Slept, how Hamas surprised the most powerful military in the Middle East. Yakov, good morning. It's great to have you on. I want to talk about the book in just a moment. But first, your thoughts on this proposed peace deal. Is this a realistic proposal? Can you see Hamas coming around to it? Well, I think that's going to be the question, Willie. Will Hamas accept the conditions? Because basically it requires of them to give up what has been their main insurance card, the 48 hostages, 20 alive, 28 of the bodies, those who are already deceased that they hold on to. In the moment that the hostages are no longer in their

hands, they are concerned, will Israel really end the war? So it's going to be hard, I think, among us Israelis, it's hard to imagine how Hamas gives up all the hostages. But I think that if there was ever a moment in these last two years, it is this moment now. You have the pressure, unprecedented of the United States. President Trump is really putting a major effort here, sending Steve Whitkoff, sending Jared Kushner. You got the Turkish intelligence chief coming to Sharm. You got the Egyptians, the Jordanians, the Qatari's, and of course, the Israelis who are there. If there was ever a moment, this is one that we can be maybe a little cautiously optimistic. Let's hope so. Let's go back now, Yaakov, two years. As we sat here on

this morning, October 8th, two years ago, stunned and horrified as the details, the videos we came out about what happened on October the 7th. And frankly, the world was shocked that the Israeli military, that Mossad, the elite Mossad intelligence operation could allow this to happen. And that's the subject of your book, while Israel slept. So what led to that moment? How was Hamas able to plan this for so long and then carry it off on the 7th? I mean, tragically, the story is, it's not overly complicated, right? Israel, there was intelligence. There was information. I mean, what shocked me the most when Amir and I, my co-author, when we did the research on this book, was just the flurry of activity that went on in the 12 and almost 20 hours preceding 629 in the

morning on October 7th when the Hamas attack commenced. There were alarm bells going off in the intelligence headquarters. One of the heads of the intelligence went from his home in the middle of the night at about 3 a.m. two headquarters to oversee all this information that was pouring in and to deliberate, is this a Hamas drill or is this an actual attack? And if it is an attack, what type of attack? I think what happened here was a lack of imagination. It was that Israel genuinely believed through all the layers and all the spheres from the political echelon down to the soldier, manning the station on the border, the Hamas was deterred, that Hamas did not want a war. And therefore, or any information that came in was viewed through this prism that Hamas was contained.

That was the real tragedy. So, Yakov, here in the United States, we experienced intelligence failures in retrospect over September 11th, prior to September 11th than what happened here. But Israel, given its geographical position in the world, given its precarious nature with its neighbors around it, and with its reputation for being beyond excellent in terms of of intelligence gathering and listening to intelligence, who is responsible for what happened? Well, you know, I think that it's everyone's responsible, to be honest, but definitely the heads of the IDF. I mean, look, we looked at these phone calls that the chief of staff, for example,

the Israel Defense Forces had throughout the night. And really, he leaned on the prospect that this was more of a drill, the head of the Shenbet, the security agency responsible for the Palestinian territories. The guy had one job and he failed. So they're definitely responsible, but who also is responsible is without a question, the political echelon, the government, the prime minister of Israel, Benjamin Netanyo, who set into policy those decisions that were made. If I told you guys right now in the studio that the war is going to end tomorrow and that Israel is going to ask Qatar to send $30 million every month to Hamas, you would think that I'm crazy and that I should be institutionalized. That's what Israel did for five years, right?

So there was something very wrong with the policies also that were set by the government. Yakov, how much has Mossad learned since the attacks of October the 7th? On the one hand, we've seen the extraordinarily successful degradation of Hezbollah, for example, in Lebanon. And on the other, we sort of saw the Doha attacks, which don't seem to have been very successful and seemed to have kind of united public opinion in the region much more firmly against Israel. Where does Mossad stand now in terms of intelligence and kind of policy that will help Israel in the longer term as it deals with its neighbors? Look, there's no question that when you think of Israel, it's not a country that you could ever

suspect or accuse of not being vigilant when it comes to the military challenges that it faces. It's hypervigilant. Every Israeli has always been vigilant. And there's no question also when you look at what Israel has succeeded in achieving, the pager attack in Lebanon, last year, the elimination of the Khasa Nasrallah, the successor, his successor, his successor, and of course the success in the 12-day war in June against Iran really shows, I think, that when Israel is focused, when it allocates the resources, when it understands the gravity of the threat, it knows how to bring the success and it knows how to achieve its objectives. With Gaza, Hamas was perceived as being the weakest enemy on the totem pole for Israel. And therefore, it thought Israel

that its defenses, Iron Dome, the barrier that it had on the border, the underground wall to block the tunnels, and the forces deployed there, it felt that it was safe and it was impenetrable, but it was wrong. So the lessons that have been learned are you can't rely just on technology, you can't rely on a small number of troops, you can't rely just on signal intelligence that we can listen to their phone calls. You have to develop also human agents on the ground in Gaza, which Israel did not have prior to October 7th. So there's a lot of lessons here that just are really about shifting focus and being attentive. And I got off to that point. Follow up on that. Do you think those lessons learned are going to be implemented by the government? And we also know

for two years now, there's been questions about you just sort of went through who you believe is responsible. But the Israeli government itself didn't want to do that. That Netanyahu kept pushing off internal inquiry, saying, well, we need to complete the war first. Is your sense here with the war potentially showing signs of winding down? Will we eventually see the Israeli government itself go through exactly and find out exactly what happened and what went wrong? Well, I'll say two things on that. Number one is we definitely, it's an existential issue, in my opinion, that we have a State Commission of Inquiry to investigate what happened here. Let's remember that after the 1973-Ohm Kippert War, now 52 years ago, one of our last greatest,

bloodiest debacle before October 7th, when Israel was surprised by Syria and Egypt on our holiest day of Yom Kippur, they established a commission of inquiry because they had to investigate and how this, what went wrong. We need one here. And the fact that the government has refused to do this is a stain on them, but let's also remember why. I think that they know what will come out and they will, and the world will see and the Israeli public will see, who is making some of these decisions, who was setting the real policy that led to the this prism through which Israel believed that Hamas was deterred. So the other part of the answer is, under this government, there will never be a state

commission of inquiry. We will have to wait for elections, and there are supposed to be elections in the coming year. And hopefully, whatever government comes next, we'll establish a commission of inquiry because it's existential for the future of the state of Israel. Jakoff, before we go, I want to come back to a point you made a little bit earlier about the funding from Qatar to Hamas that was not only allowed by Israel, but encouraged by Benjamin Netanyahu, hundreds of millions of dollars, as you said over about five years.

Can you explain for our viewers why on earth Benjamin Netanyahu would allow and encourage that money to go into Gaza effectively to Hamas? You know, I'll say also on this two things. Had we spoke in October 6, 2023, I probably would have told you, look, it's working. I mean, the Qatari money makes sense. Hamas doesn't want war. It just wants economic prosperity. It wants to improve the situation in Gaza. was the prevalent assessment throughout the political echelon, the defense establishment, and of course, within the military. We now know that that was foolish. The Hamas was taking this

money and using it to build that network of tunnels. That's the equivalent of the New York subway and the London underground put together under Gaza and so much more. But the thinking for Netanyo was that if I can pay off with the Qatari money, Hamas, I can stave off that war. I can kick the can down the road. That's a good day for Israel. Let's avoid. that war. Look at how tragic this war has been for Israel, and of course also for the Palestinians in the Gaza Strip. That place has been destroyed and devastated. So it wasn't necessarily a bad idea on the big picture, on the macro, but on the micro, to think that you can pay off a genocidal terrorist group. We should watch a few more movies like The Godfather. You never want

to pay the extortion money. That might be a good lesson. The new book is entitled, while Israel slept, how Hamas surprised the most powerful military in the Middle East. And it's available now. Author and journalist, Jakov Katz, thank you very much for coming on the show this morning. We appreciate it. And still ahead, editor-in-chief of the Atlantic, Jeffrey Goldberg joins us to go through the publication's special edition on what it calls the Unfinished Revolution. He'll explain that. Also ahead this morning, actor Channing. Tatum will be our guest, whose new film, Roof Man, hits theaters on Friday. Morning Joe, we'll be right back.

How about the Seattle Mariners? Now, one went away from their first AL championship series since 2001. It beat the Detroit Tigers last night to take a two-one lead in the ALDD.S. Yes, big swings powering Seattle's victory, including solo home runs from Suarez and J.P. Crawford. And this two-run shot launched by, yeah, that's the big dumper. That's his nickname, Cal Raleigh. My goodness. First home run of the playoffs, after he hit 60 in the regular season, bouncing out of the bullpen right to a Mariners fan,

wearing a shirt that reads, dump here. Yeah, he did it. Okay. The Mariners beat the Tigers, eight to four. They can claim the series on the road, the Saffir. afternoon in game four in Detroit. The best part of that shirt is. The Faye says dump here with number 61 on it because that was Cal Raleigh's 61 home run.

The fan got the ball. He didn't proceed to take off his shirt and you can see he's got another one underneath it. It says dump here 62. That guy's a hero. Calling for the next hero. Call Raleigh home run. He is a legend. Mike, the Mariners have had a lot of good teams over the years but have never gotten over that hump.

I didn't even realize then back to the ALCS since the Ichero days. The Lou Pinellichero. I mean, he could have been in the World Series three separate years. They missed. They had Alex Rodriguez. Then they had Itgerow. They missed. This team here is, might be, it might be Seattle, Milwaukee.

Which would be two teams that have never, we just talked about it, two teams that have never won the World Series to deserving fan bases. I mean, obviously, long way to go before we get that. But Seattle can finish off this afternoon. They've got, obviously, really good pitching. Detroit's unclear who's getting, you know, the scuba looms in game five, but they got to get there first. And then also, really, we've got elimination games in the nationally as well. We've got, you know, both the Dodgers and Brewers going for sweeps. And the Phillies had a great season, but they could get swept right out of the playoffs after running away with their division.

All right.