Morning Joe - Erika Kirk says she forgives the man accused of killing her husband

Episode Date: September 22, 2025

Erika Kirk says she forgives the man accused of killing her husband Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

That man, that young man, I forgive him. I forgive him because it was what Christ did and is what Charlie would do. The answer to hate is not hate. The answer we know from the gospel is love and always love. Love for our enemies and love for those who persecute us. That was an emotional, emotional moment yesterday from the widow of Charlie Kirk during the memorial service for her late husband. Charlie, of course, quoting from Matthew, where Jesus commands us to love our enemies. And to pray for those who persecute us.

Good morning and welcome to morning, Joe. It's Monday, September 22nd. With us, we have co-hosts of our fourth hour staff writer at the Atlantic, Jonathan Lemire, U.S. Special Correspondent for BBC News, and host of the rest is politics podcast, Caddy Kay, New York Times opinion columnist David French, and Rogers Chair in the American Presidency at Vanderbilt University, historian John Meacham. So tens of thousands of people, just an absolutely packed arena, including the president and top administration officials gathered in Arizona yesterday to remember the late conservative activist

Charlie Kirk. NBC News senior correspondent Garrett Haake has all the details. President Trump closing out a day of prayer and politics at the Arizona Memorial Service for assassinated conservative activist Charlie Kirk. None of us will ever forget Charlie Kirk, and neither now will history. The president's speech following remarks by members of his cabinet and inner circle, including an emotional vice president J.D. Vance, who was close to the 31-year-old Kirk. I have talked more about Jesus Christ in the past two weeks than I have my entire time in public life. And that is an undeniable legacy of the great Charlie Kirk.

God bless all of you. Kirk's widow Erica, who will succeed her husband as CEO of Turning Point, the conservative youth organization he founded, speaking emotionally about her husband. But I will miss him. I will miss him so much because our marriage and our family were beautiful. It may still be. Erica Kirk saying she would not weigh in on whether the government should seek the death penalty

for her husband's accused killer, telling the New York Times, quote, I do not want that man's blood on my ledger. FBI director Cash Patel posting a lengthy update on the investigation into alleged shooter Tyler Robinson, promising the FBI is, quote, meticulously investigating theories and questions about the case, including some internet-fueled conspiracy theories. While back in Glendale, tens of thousands of attendees packed State Farm Stadium, home of the NFL's Arizona Cardinals, many lining up overnight to secure seats amid extensive security measures.

This is amazing. We love Charlie so much and all the work that he did in this country. We're coming here to appreciate him and, you know, appreciate what he spoke for. This NBC's Garrett Hake with that report. David French, you and I actually grew up in this sort of cultural background. We attended, I don't know exactly what church services you attended, but I suspect they were a lot like mine. And so none of this sounded foreign to us. It was certainly interesting, though, the mix of religion, politics, and as Donald Trump himself said, sort of this old-time tent revival feel. I was curious and been curious.

What were your thoughts? Of course, moving beyond just the absolute horrible human tragedy of all of this. And still, I must say, all these weeks later, still so extraordinarily hard to come to terms with that somebody going around talking to college students would be assassinated this way. Yeah, you know, when you saw Erica Kirk speak, one of the first things that I thought was this is one of the most beautiful things that I've seen. heartbreaking, heartrending. And that's what Christianity is, is what she did right there in front of all of those people actually forgiving Charlie Kurt's killer, talking about the sacrifice of Jesus and Jesus forgiving his killers. And this is, this is the heart and the core of what Christianity is

and to see it right there in that way. And I think it also helped bring home to people that we're having political arguments and political fights surrounding all of this. But at the end of the day, she lost a husband, her kids lost a father, people lost a friend. I mean, this was a horrific, horrific event. And so I think that that moment was singularly powerful in communicating the gravity of the loss and also what Christianity is. Then you had all of this complexity of Trump getting up there and behaving in a very, very, very different way, also to cheers. And so what you saw here in a lot of ways was this complexity of this MAGA world and the complexity of this MAGA movement, that there are people within it and people who express

ideas within it who, they're beautiful, wonderful people who are caught up in this movement. And then there is also this other side that is so directly contradictory. of the message that Erica Kirk shared. And so that's one thing that struck me. You know, when I watch this, I know from my own, you know, my own home in Tennessee, where people have just been cut to the core by Charlie Kirk's loss. And I think you could see that. You could see that in the memorial. And then you could also see this other side of it all when Donald Trump got up to speak, when Donald Trump started to address the issue. And, you know, that is in many ways the complexity of all this that we saw in front of our eyes?

Well, it really was. I mean, there were so many times that we would hear things that, again, sounds like it could come straight out of Baptist Student Union and Tuscalo when I would go there in college or, you know, the Baptist churches I grew up in. They're talking about love and grace and forgiveness, loving our enemies, praying for those. who persecute us. But then with at least the politicians, John Meacham, and the people who worked for politicians, you had another beat. It was Charlie taught us to forgive, but, and then it would be like, oh, this is all the left wing's fault. Or, oh, these are people who hated and mocked and ridiculed. There were two beats, and it did sound, when the politicians got up there,

sounded very discordant instead of celebration of a life and talking about Jesus' words and Jesus' commandments of us to forgive others. There at times, there was another tone that was taken. So I found that to be discordant, but I'm curious what you certainly could go back to the early 1800s, John, and find examples of politics and religion mixing. So this has happened before. I'm just curious, what were your thoughts yesterday as you watched this? What I was thinking was it would be too glib. And I think there are going to be a lot of folks, I would imagine, on the center and left of American politics, who will be reflexively uncomfortable with what unfolded yesterday. What I would urge is not to be reflexively

uncomfortable, but to take each of those who addressed that audience, addressed the nation, addressed in many cases the world, and take their words on their own merits and in their own context. There's going to be a lot of talk. I'm sure David's email box is full of people seeking to understand this thing called Christian nationalism. But there was a feeling, particularly with Mrs. Kirk, that it was something that had a genuine, what appeared to be, a genuinely religious component. And then came the president who spoke the way President Trump speaks, and that should be considered on its merits as well. But I'm a big believer, as I think you are, Joe, that we must separate church and state. There's a religious case for that,

by the way. Originally, that notion of a wall of separation between church and state, which was an image that came from Richard Hooker and Anglican Divine, came through Thomas Jefferson, and then the Supreme Court picked the image up in the 20th century. The initial point of the wall was not to protect the state from the church, but the church from the state. The original phrase was that the Garden of Christ's church should not be damaged by the church. the state. That said, religion and politics, because they're both about people, they're both about human nature, they're both about our sense of the origins, course, and destiny of life, religion and politics can't be separated. They have to be managed and marshaled. And so what we have here is, I think, particularly in the moment where Mrs. Kirk, in imitation of Christ, forgave the assassin. The only other example of that I can think of offhand in public life is when John Paul the second visited his own assailant, which is a remarkable analogy and standard.

Don't dismiss this, I would say, to my old friends who might be uncomfortable with some of the imagery. There are worse things. then. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. Yeah. And I will say David French, it was, and again, Pope John Paul II did that. We actually talked to Reverend L. Sharpton, who was stabbed in an assassination attempt. He forgave his assailant. That's actually, that's a command from Jesus. We saw it again yesterday with Erica. but I will say, no, I will tell you, most of what I heard yesterday, David, was very affirming,

and there were even people who got up who surprised me in what they said, talking about we're not to judge others, we're to focus on ourselves, we are to heal ourselves, we are to become better ourselves. It reminds me where Jesus says the sermon on the Mount, why are you looking in the speck in your neighbor's eye when you have a plank in your own, take care of yourself? So, no, I thought until the politicians and the people who work for politicians got up there and tried to leverage it for their own good, I thought those who knew Charlie Kirk and loved Charlie Kirk and worshipped with Charlie Kirk and grew up with Charlie Kirk and lived with Charlie Kirk. I thought their messages were very affirming and straight out of the

Gospas. I always talk about the red letters. Don't take me back to Nahum. Don't take me back to some singular verse in Leviticus. Look at the red letters. See how Jesus fulfilled the law. That's where we are. If we are Christians, that's where we are to live. That's where we are to sit. that that's where we are to look at the world when we treat others. And I found overwhelming majority of what was said yesterday, not by the politicians and not by the people who work for the politicians, not by the bureaucrats. I found some very positive, very affirming things said. Yeah, absolutely.

And I also think if you looked at that, if you watched that, you could see why so many of us we're saying, look, don't turn this person into just a symbol where all you do after this horrible evil act, all you do is debate his legacy or debate the politics of it all. Why can't you take a moment, take a beat, and just mourn his loss and mourn what happened here? Because as soon as politics gets involved, everyone is reduced to the caricature of themselves. Either the worst things that somebody ever said, if you're on the other side, or you've become the best things or only the best things you ever did or said on the opposing side, on the other side. And so this moment where you actually got to see people who are very close to him

talk about him, I think this is something that was important for Americans who tuned in, who watched, to begin to just understand and appreciate the scope of the human loss here, that this is a human being who is lost, who like anybody else who's lost in horrible, evil acts, had a family, had dimensions to their personality that people couldn't see in public or couldn't people couldn't see outside of the family. And I think that was a very, very, very important moment because it's so distressing how quickly this entire argument moved to politics, move to his best words or his worst words. Look, we've got a lot of people who are still in politics we can argue with. This is a moment where you mourn. Right. And that picture that

we saw behind the stage reminds us. This was a memorial service for a man who considered his evangelical faith to be the center of his life. Not politics, not organizing, not all the other things that, again, politicians and bureaucrats would have wanted to talk about. It was an important part of his life. But at the end of the day, everybody that knew him closely said that his faith was the center of his life. Now, still ahead, we're going to play you some of what President Trump said for the other side of the coin there. And we're going to also dig into a new MSNBC report on the FBI's investigation

that the White House border czar, Tom Holman, and the decision for the Justice Department to close the case. We're going to have reporters there that help break the story. Plus, the latest on the fallout from ABC's decision to suspend Jimmy Kimmel. as some Republican lawmakers raise real concerns about what the FCC chairman did to get involved in that decision. And some notable guests we have coming up this week. Tomorrow, Mika's interview with Democratic Governor J.B. Pritzker of Illinois, that coming after the president attacked him. Also, President Trump yesterday, mocking him for being soft on crime.

we will hear tomorrow J.B. Pritzker's response and what his plans are for making Chicago more safe. And on Wednesday, former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton will be our guest. We're going to talk to her about how things are looking on the global stage, what she thinks about all of the European powers that are now recognizing Palestine's right to exist as a state and the recognition of that state. plus her thoughts on President Trump. We're also going to be talking about the 20th anniversary of the Clinton Global Initiative. You're watching morning, Joe. We will be right back. He was right for our nation.

And so on that terrible day, September 10th, 2025, our greatest, evangelist for American liberty became immortal. He's a martyr now for American freedom. He was a missionary with a noble spirit and a great, great purpose. He did not hate his opponents. He wanted the best for them. That's where I disagreed with Charlie. I hate my opponent.

And I don't want the best for them. I'm sorry. I am sorry, Erica, but now Erica can talk to me and the whole group, and maybe they can convince me that that's not right, but I can't stand my opponent. I think the organist is going to have to play just as I am for at least 20 or 30 verses. We may not be the first in line at Morrison's as we wait for the president to be moved and converted by Erica on that front. um that was by the way that was for those of you that grew up we were in baptist churches who played just as i am and we had god bless him pastor plights would sit there and he would wait 15 20 verses till somebody came down gave their life to christ and then we could go out but people would

growls because we would be at the back of the line at morrison's and it would take us about 30 minutes to be able to go through uh the line so anyway well i don't know how long I don't know how many verses we'll have to play for President Trump, but that was some of the president's message at the memorial service for Charlie Kirk. And David French, this takes me back to practicing Catholic Nancy Pelosi saying that you prayed for Donald Trump every day. You pray for, as Jesus commanded us in Matthew 5, you pray for, you love your enemies. You pray for those who persecute you. Jesus, and what good does it? What good does it do if you love your friends and you hate your enemies?

I command you to hate your enemies and to pray for those who persecute you. And it's something Donald Trump just didn't get when Nancy Pelosi said it. And even yesterday in a friendly crowd, you either get it or you don't get it. I mean, it's – and one of the things you do learn is that if you follow Jesus' this commandment. It's actually better for you in the end. But right now, and there's the discordance, too, because, you know, at times you go, well, this sort of, if everybody was wearing coat and tie and white shirts and a tie, it would look like a Billy Graham crusade from the 1960s, right? And you, with a lot of the same words being used. And then you have Donald Trump saying,

yeah, and I hate my enemies. And part of the crowd erupts. and cheers. And that's where you're like, wait, these two things do not go together. Well, until you realize that, sadly, they have been going together for much of the last 10 years, where you have on the one hand a church that will rise and rightly applaud the incredible words of Erica Kirk, and then turn around and happily go to the polls, not in spite of Trump's vengeance, but because. of Trump's sense of vengeance. This is the kind of thing where you watch,

if you've been paying attention to American religion and American politics for the last decade, it wouldn't surprise you to see the Erica Kirk speech and to hear the applause and then to watch the Donald Trump speech and hear the laughter and applause to that as well and realize that in many ways, this is what politics is doing to American. Christianity. It is creating this face of vengeance because Americans know that he has the power

to work his vengeance because of the church. It is the church that put him in the Oval Office more than the evangelical church more than any other American constituency. And so what we watched unfold in front of us was when he spoke like that, this wasn't in contradiction of what so many Christians wanted their, out of their president here. It is exactly why so many Christians voted for this president. And that's what I circling back to what I said at the beginning. That's the frustrating complexity of what is happening in this moment. Yeah, maybe we want to go back and read Tim Alberta's amazing book, Kingdom, the Power and the Glory, which I think David got to so much of what you've just been saying, the contradictions in the church in the church movement

at the moment. And I think Erica's words of the answer to hate is not more hate. It's love and always love what much of the country has been wanting to hear over the last couple of weeks since Charlie Kirk was killed. But we heard something else from President Trump. And on the political front, he is also putting pressure on his own attorney general Pam Bondi to take action, not just hatred, but action against his perceived political enemies. On Saturday, Trump suggested on truth social that the Department of Justice should go after former FBI director James Comey, Democratic Senator Adam Schiff, and the New York Attorney General Letitia James. He was saying they're, quote, guilty as hell. He then went on to write,

We can't delay any longer. It's killing our reputation and credibility. They impeached me twice and indicted me five times over nothing. Justice must be served now. And later that evening, Trump said this when he was speaking to reporters. They have to act. And we want to act fast. You know, they were ruined. ruthless and vicious. I was impeached twice. I was indicted five times. It turned out to be a fake deal. And we have to act fast. One way or the other. One way or the other. They're guilty. They're not guilty. We have to act fast. If they're not guilty, that's fine. If they are guilty or if they should be charged, they should be judged. And we have to do it now.

Jonathan, over the years of covering Donald Trump, you and I have learned that sometimes he says things, and it's kind of hyperbolic, but it doesn't actually necessarily mean to follow through. It's a way of expressing something to his base or to his political supporters or his own frustration, as in this case. But sometimes he does plan to follow through. So what is, what are we, what is this comment about? Is this about something where he wants actual action from Pam Bondi, and we're going to see prosecutions against those three people? Or is this a way for him to signal that he's taking action? It certainly seems like the former, and that is a very, dangerous place, Caddy, and we shouldn't sugarcoat this. I'll just read some of how this

has been described in our leading newspapers. The Washington Post said Trump's messages were one of his most overt attempts yet to override the traditional restraints of the president's involvement in law enforcement. The New York Times says it was an extraordinary breach of the prosecutorial protocols that are established post-Watergate. Let's be clear. This is the President of the states ordering his Department of Justice to go after his political enemies. That's what this is. There's some speculation that this was meant as a private message to Pambodney. White House has not confirmed that, but the writing of the, it might have been meant as a DM as opposed to a true social because Trump then took that post down, tried to clean it up with a subsequent

posting. But this is, we know, President Trump campaigned on the idea of retribution. That was one of his campaign platforms last year, and this is what that appears to look like. And we have seen U.S. attorneys across this country find a lack of evidence. There has not been a charge yet against Letitia James, the New York State Attorney General. There have not been charges yet against Senator Schiff or others. We have also seen, though, an effort by this president to remove a U.S. attorney who wouldn't bring charges. And he makes mention of that in this post, too, saying he needs to be replaced with someone perhaps more compliant. And Joe, I think this is, this is what Democrats have been warning about for months that we'd get to this step.

Will there be fall through? We'll see in the days ahead. But this is, as one senior Democrat put to me over the weekend, this is a five alarm fire. Well, yeah, this is actually what Democrats and members of the media have been worrying about for years. I mean, you know, and the president promised it, yeah, he said, I am your retribution. And then as it got closer, and then when he got elected, oh, I'm not going to have time for attribution. It's up to them. And this, this, this truth social post laid it all bare. And then the president sort of circled back and tried to soften his comments a little bit later.

But it's very interesting, Barb, let's bring in former U.S. attorney and an MSNBC contributor, Barbara McQuaid, also MSNBC Justice and Intelligence correspondent, Kindelanian. You know, Barb, it's so interesting. It is a difficult job, I would, I would guess, being an attorney for Donald Trump who understands, as Rudy Giuliani learned, you can say one thing when you're in front of the press outside of a federal courthouse. You go into the federal courthouse, you better actually stick with the law and stick with the facts when you're talking to a judge, or bad things will happen to you eventually. Maybe not that day, but eventually you will be held to account if you lie or if you try to do something that's untoward legally. In this case, I'm curious if the president does shop around and find U.S. attorneys that will bring charges against his political opponents, how much does that truth social post undermine any case in the eyes of. any judge when they understand you've got a case with thin evidence and then you have this, you have this post where the president is ordering the attorney general to go after his

political opponents. Well, I imagine that any attorney representing any one of these defendants if they should show up in a criminal case would be using the text of this, printing it out immediately and attaching it to any motion for selective prosecution. Selective prosecution says you have prosecuted my client based on some arbitrary or other improper reasons such as politics while you have failed to prosecute other people who are similarly situated. And my evidence of this is that the president of the United States commanded the prosecutor to charge my client. So that is going to make for a very strong defense for anyone who gets charged. And the other thing, Joe, that makes it very difficult for any lawyer to go into court on one of these

cases. We know from the resignation of the U.S. attorney in the Eastern District of Virginia that the evidence against Letitia James is thin at best. They've got to go into court and defend that. They can't just make it up in front of a jury. They need facts, evidence, documents, witnesses to prove not only that a person made a false claim on a document, but they did so with intent to defraud. And so I don't know that we're going to see any of these cases go anywhere, but it would be very very difficult to be a lawyer trying to do this job. Yeah, it's been serious. Yeah, I mean, it really would.

Jonathan O'Meer would be so extraordinarily difficult because of what the president sent to Pam Bondi. And because he's been saying very clearly, we have to go after them. We have to prosecute them now. We have to, the language he used and said they're guilty as hell. And that's, again, again, that's not, if you're an attorney for the federal government, good luck with that in front of a federal judge. That's one part of it. I mean, I mean, the second part of it, let me let's look at the Lisa Cook case and you talk about how thin all of this evidence is. And the Lisa Cook case, Reuters basically blew that entire case out of the

water. And yet the president is still pressing his attorneys to go to the Supreme Court with this and try to get the power to kick her off the board for something that, again, evidence doesn't support, apparently. Yeah, I mean, this, certainly this isn't going to help in the courtroom, but it's also a message set. It's an explicit message sent about these cases, but also a more subtle one to the rest of DOJ, to the rest of prosecutors around, hey, the president wants his opponents, even if they're not named in this post, to be prosecuted. And that's very worrisome. We say a lot since Trump first term, that because he says things so out in the open, it's actually less shocking sometimes than if it was like uncovered in a major newspaper investigation,

per se. But this is one of those where he puts it out in the open. And it's because it's so blatant. It is so disturbing to so many. And Ken, let's, I mentioned and so did Barbara mentioned this U.S. Attorney in Virginia. You were way out ahead on the reporting on this. Illuminate readers as to what happened, why it happened, and why it's so worrisome. Good morning, Jonathan. Yeah. So Eric Siebert, the Trump appointed U.S. attorney in the Eastern District of Virginia, apparently did not think much of the case. against Letitia James, the alleged mortgage fraud allegations, which she says is a mistake. And remember, a mistake can't be a crime. They have to establish evidence of criminal intent.

So neither he nor the line attorneys under him, we understand, thought they had a prosecutable case. But remember, this is, again, a Donald Trump appointee, a Republican-leaning, politically appointed U.S. attorney who said no. And so he was essentially forced out. And his career deputy was demoted so that she would not be able to assume the role of acting U.S. Attorney, and now they have another person prepared to take that job. And by the way, guys, I just want to make it very clear. This isn't just about the New York Attorney General. That office is also investigating a statement made to Congress by former FBI director James Comey back in 2020, and the statute of limitations on that issue elapses in a little over a week. So our sources are telling my colleague

Carol Lening and I that we should look for a potential indictment of the former FBI director James Comey out of that office in the next week. The stakes are very high here. The Trump administration is explicitly doing with this message from Donald Trump exactly what it accused the Biden administration and the Biden Justice Department of doing without evidence, by the way, those accusations were totally without evidence, weaponizing and politicizing the Justice Department against the president's political enemies. That's out in the open now. We've been warning about it. We've been discussing it for months. This message from Donald Trump really lays it all bare. And what's happening in the Eastern District of Virginia is just stunning,

really. I mean, we saw them drop a case against the mayor of New York for what looked like political reasons. We had not yet seen them try to bring a case over the objections of career prosecutors for what looks like political reasons. And that's what's coming to pass here. And it's really, really, it's unprecedented. We say unprecedented all the time. But this is really a watershed moment for the justice system in the United States. It is a watershed moment. And, you know, David French, the irony is just so thick here. You can't even cut it.

I mean, the irony, whether you talk about the weaponization of the Justice Department, by the way, all you have to do to say, oh, Biden did the same? No, he didn't. Like, for a year, you had people on the far left, bitch. and moaning about Merrick Garland. He's too weak. He needs to be fired. Why won't he do anything? He had political pressure for at least a year for not moving. He moved too slowly. He was too weak. Why couldn't he play the way people on the hard right would play? And the Biden administration ignored it and let it go. So anyway, that's over there. But anyway, the weaponization of the

Justice Department, first of all, has become so extreme from the same people who said, we must run to stop the weaponization of the Justice Department. And then you have cancel culture. Now they're calling it consequence culture, right? But they're actually sending people throughout like workplaces, trying to find anybody who may have said something about Charlie Kirk that they don't like to fire them. you have Pam Bondi actually talking about going after

Office Depot for not printing flyers. I'm sorry. Where were these people during, I think it was the case out of Indiana about the person that didn't want to bake a wedding cake for a gay

marriage and the Supreme Court said, you're right to do it. And everybody cheered. Yay. They should be able to do what they want to do in the free marketplace. And then free speech. Pam Bondi also being interviewed by somebody who says, when are we going to start putting handcuffs on people, basically for saying hate speech? Again, the great irony there is, you know, Charlie Kirk spent the past decade saying,

no, don't talk about hate speech. Let's have all speech out there and debate it. But on one instance after another, the hypocrisy is absolutely astounding. And I cannot believe they are not so blind not to see how hypocritical they've become. Well, look, I mean, if you're talking about weaponization or free speech, we're looking at a movement that literally ran against weaponization of the Justice Department and for free speech. And then once it gains power, weaponizes by an order of mass. magnitude and then cracks down on free speech at a level, I believe now worse than what we saw during the McCarthy era. So we're looking at a comprehensive crackdown on free speech, a

comprehensive effort to intimidate the media. This is a remarkable turn of events. It's as if they were saying, well, we ran against an authoritarian left. Now let us show you how authoritarian we can be. And this just does circle back to previous conversation. We've already had about Trump and vengeance, Trump and hatred for his enemies. The bottom line is for tens of millions of Americans, they are actually more interested in the vengeance than they are in the liberty. And so they will sacrifice the liberty to get the vengeance. And it is remarkably short-sighted. They are unlocking powers, for example, of the presidency that they would never want unlocked for their political opponents. And as you're saying, it's remarkably hypocritical.

And it's tearing this country apart. People can see what they are doing. They can see the hypocrisy. They can see the vengeance. David French, can you, because you and I, by the way, you and I are conservatives. We are still conservatives. We would like our party to come back to us. I don't think they ever will.

But as conservatives, will you please? And I think actually Ted Cruz got to this. over the weekend about Brendan Carr. Can you warn these so-called conservatives? What happens if the wrong independent or the wrong progressive who actually has spent their entire life talking about big government? What happens if they look at all the precedents that are being set now when they become president a couple of years from now?

Talk about those dangers. This is not just bad for the people that are being targeted now. This is horrible for these very conservatives that a few years from now may have a left-wing progressive or some rich billionaire deciding they're going to persecute somebody because they don't like what they're saying about them. Yeah, I mean, like, just think about this. Let's look at the bedrock core of Trump's constituency, which is. is the white evangelical church. Part of their core concern and why they rally to a strong man like Trump is they feel as if they're an embattled minority that the larger culture is trying to crush. But if you're an embattled minority, why would you be handing an enormous amount

of power to the government? I mean, this makes no sense. By handing more and more and more power to the government to crush its enemies, you're constructing the very tools that could be used against you. This is one of the reasons why the conservative movement traditionally in the face of injustice said should have defended liberty as opposed to embracing vengeance. When you embrace liberty, you are protected when you are in the minority. When you embrace vengeance, you are vulnerable when you are in the minority. And if one of the core reasons for supporting Trump in the first place is evangelicals felt so embattled, like an embattled minority, this makes no sense at all. just contradictory to conservatism, it contradicts common sense as well. So John Meacham, we haven't had nearly enough history this morning on the program for a Monday

morning. I've been speaking to people who are pretty close to President Trump, but have also been dismayed by what they've seen over the last week. And when you ask, well, how do we get out of this? The answer, inevitably, from the people I have spoken to, has been, well, you look at history. You look at the civil war, we got out of it. Then you look at the 1960s and 70s. We got through it then. We got through Watergate in the case of prosecutions, perhaps. But one difference, of course, is you didn't have these social media algorithms, which are being used very effectively to drive Americans further apart, which our adversaries are using to drive us further apart, and we're making it pretty easy for

them. What do you see as the path out of this kind of spiral of, of some of which was on display over the weekend, in the difference in the disconnect between what Erica Kirk said, trying to bring Americans together and what the president said, trying to drive them further apart? Yeah, I think it's a misreading of history to suggest that because we've come through something in the past, we will therefore come through it in the future. That doesn't track. There are certain lessons that might help us come through something. To me, centrally, this is about the character of the people at the very top. So much of what we are rightly deploring and discussing about authoritarian power is the result of a particular person.

I'm sort of a great man theory of history type. I believe that individuals fundamentally shape the lives of nations as well as broader social, cultural patterns. But one thing the last 10 years has done is I think it's a pretty big piece of evidence for the fact that individual characters can have a disproportionate impact on the lives of nations. And the most important character, the most important individual person of the last decade is President Trump. If you take President Trump out of this equation, you have a very different decade. And so when people say, oh, well, you know, here's the lesson of the 1850s or, which by the way, when you end with a civil war that kills 750,000 people, I don't know that that's the analogy one wants to embrace. I do think the 1960s is interesting because Richard Nixon was elected in 1968, a bloody and difficult year. I think something like 46 Americans died on average every day in Vietnam in 1968, Dr. King, Senator Kennedy, George Wallace did very well.

13.5 percent of the popular vote carried five states in November, 1968, a very difficult time. And it was Richard Nixon, in many ways, who came in, and though he had run to the right, he governed from the center. And one thing about President Nixon is he had a sense of shame. He believed in the institutions. He believed in the Constitution. He broke norms and laws, but ultimately he followed them. And that was a kind of reverence for institutions that I do not think. President Trump has. And so I totally agree with what David was saying. My fear, and so we've

talked about history. Let's throw a little Thomas Hobbs in for Caddy. We're in the war of all against all, right? This is what Hobbs defined as the state of nature. And the point of the American Republic was supposed to be that we would not simply grab what we wanted at the second we wanted it, that there would be rules of law, there would be norms. And that would give, to use a phrase from the conservative movement, that would give us ordered liberty, ordered liberty. And you cannot have ordered liberty if you invest a particular president, a particular party, a particular administration with absolute power. Historian John Meacham, thank you. I'm glad we got there for the history this morning. Thank you very much.

much, John. MSNBC Justice and Intelligence correspondent, Kendallanian, thank you as well. His new reporting along with Carol Lennig is online now. It's titled, Tom Homan, was investigated for accepting $50,000 from undercover FBI agents, Trump's DOJ, shut it down. Former U.S. attorney Barbara McQa, thank you as well. Her latest opinion piece for Bloomberg, titled Pam Bondi isn't the president's enforcer, is available online now. And New York Times opinion columnist, David French. Thank you as well for starting. the week with us. His new piece is titled for his friends, everything

in which David writes about the implications of the TikTok deal between China and the White House, arguing that Trump negotiated an agreement that benefits his billionaire allies while disregarding America's national security interests. Check that out. It's an important story. It's online now. Coming up,

we'll have highlights from across the NFL yesterday. Pablo Torre joins us with his takeaways from week three, plus where things stand in Major League Baseball as we enter the final week of the regular season. Morning Joe and Pablo Torre coming right back. feet Jeremy Nick Nichols I don't think they're going to get him and he is in for the Washington touchdown in about 15 yards to get it to field goal range for Nick folk pass

picked off Taylor picked off it's Jacob Jamal Dean who takes it all the way back for a bunch touchdown panics with time is intercepted that's completely on panic Second down in four to Taylor. Taylor explodes, makes a man miss to his right. Spin move of beauty, inside the 30. High stepping at the 25, inside the 10, into the end zone. Second down in six. Herbert to the air.

Pipkins the block at the right tackle. Got away from Alam. Herbert alive in the throw. Court comes down. To hear the bear's a little flip to switch. Trying to get a flea flicker. It's way up there. Williams recovers throws a seed.

Has a man. It is caught for a touchdown. Joshua Carty has it blocked again. This time, Jordan Davis, the big man looks for the icing on one big cake. Eagles hang on. Whoa, those are some of the biggest touchdowns from winning teams across the NFL yesterday, including that improbable special team score. They kept the Super Bowl champion Eagles unbeat.

Let's go to the Meadowlands, the New York Giants hosting the Kansas City Chiefs on Sunday night football. Coles swinging rookie quarterback Jackson Dart came early as booze rang down at halftime in a dismal offensive performance from veteran Russell Wilson, who tossed two interceptions and no touchdowns in New York's home opener. Kansas City avoids what would have been its first 0 and three starts since 2011, as quarterback Patrick Mahomes threw for 224 yards. and the score, and the Chiefs beat the Giants, 22 to 9. Week 3 concludes tonight with an early season, classic in Baltimore, with the Ravens hosting the Detroit Lions on Monday night football.

Let's see if one sports team out of Detroit still remembers how to win. Let's bring around the host of Pablo Torrey finds out a metal art media, MSNBC contributor, Pablo, a crazy week. And let me just set it up for you here. So, we're working through the night. You know, Lemire, he looks tired. I'm tired. We had to get the IBM mainframe, which is like, it's like half a city block.

We had to get it in the Marriott Marquis ballroom. We pushed it in there. It was unbelievable. We had Sinatra live at the Sands playing with a Count Basie Orchestra, you know, playing in the background. Yeah. A lot of guys and tuxes were there. You know the scene, right? Yeah.

We had, Lamere was there, Geist. I think we had Don Rickles' third cousin. It was quite the scene. He's funny. And this is what the IBM, yeah, he was very funny, right? You're saying third cousin, yeah, by marriage. But, wow. But anyway, so this is what the IBM mainframe comes up with.

The new power rankings, the bills, the ravens, the lions, the Eagles. And the Chargers. And I got to say, Pablo, just to let you know what I said last week, that this whole thing has grown. I think it's growing out of our control. AI is taking over. It is now, as Darth Vader was once described, more machine than man. I think our computer rating may have left off one of the top five teams in the Colts. But I don't know.

Look at that list and tell us what you think since you weren't invited in the room. No, I just hear the computing. I smell the smoke that fills the room. I can detect the crackling sounds of Richard Haas, gasbagging about the giants. All of these things are apparent to me through the, of course, triple layer strength door. And I wonder why the Eagles, why the Eagles are fourth when they, you know, won the Super Bowl. And, you know, we just saw a 330-pound dude move faster than we've seen a man of that side move since they started tracking the speed of all-carriers.

They're fourth because I think they got like 17 yards in the first half. They looked pathetic. Like, it was a good second half by Alabama, well, not alum, but by former Alabama quarterback. That's right, right? No, no, no. But they were not impressive. So let's talk about a couple of other things. Then we'll get back to the power rankings.

I'd love to hear who you think is number one. But what about the backers going from worse to like first to worse? That horrible losing to the Browns. But yesterday we had the Bakers, we had Baker Mayfield and the Bucks. We had, my God, I mean, the Falcons getting crushed. And this, the shock of the day for me, what happened between the PAC, who just looked unstoppable, at Lamba the week before against Washington. Yeah, look, Washington, by the way, didn't have Jamie Daniels.

Washington, not a team that you're supposed to, yeah. I mean, well, hold on. I want to reset here because, of course. Are you okay, Pablo? Hey, can somebody get him some coffee? I'm not okay. I'm not okay. The sound of the computer.

The sound of the computer is still ringing in my years. One second. Hold on one second. We've got to get that thing going again. That's calculating still. It's a big discombulating when I'm trying to assess an NFL Sunday where we're reminded, Joe, that we're in week three. And so if you're going to point to anything here, the story I want to celebrate, as we see the Packers, of course, lose to the Browns, is simply that Baker Mayfield won't go away. He won't go away. If there's any quarterback that you and I agree on in terms of, yes. He's like, Cher, he's going to survive a nuclear blast. He won't go away.

And let me tell you something, he's in the worst division in football, and they're undefeated. And he looked, I mean, he brought him back. He came back. And they're even wearing, they're even wearing the Creamsicle uniform. The Crimicry uniforms are the best. The best retroes. They're the best, best. Best retroes anywhere.

They, of course, were 0.14 that year, the worst team in football history. But still, what a comeback. And again, the Jets, another heartbreak for the New York Jets. Yeah, I don't necessarily feel obliged to pile on because whatever the bottom five list is should, of course, have them on it. I presume your computers are calculating that as well because that's a historical consideration. Hold on one second. I'm so glad you said that.

Hold on. Let's calculate right now. We want to get the worst New York teams. The computers calculated this. The New York Mets, who I've got to say, I don't understand. I do not understand how bad they are. Every time I look up, they're in the middle of a five-game losing streak. And then the Jets.

Out of the playoffs. And then the Giants, man, they just suck. They're terrible teams. The Giants, watching Russell Wilson run a two-minute drill was dispiriting. The back page of the post, by the way, for the Mets, I'll just hold it up for you. It is Dratman and Robin, which just feels like they're, you know, I don't know whether to be impressed or not by this. But Dratman and Robin. And meanwhile, I just want to point out that all of the filibustering here by the committee has just reminded me that one of the committee members who sits at the table with me every Monday morning does not seem to want to acknowledge what happened to his New England Patriots.

If we want to just, I don't know, spin the camera over in the direction of one job. Oh, look, look who's here today. You know, Jonathan, this is just such a cheap shot. I was going to say, Jonathan, I was going to send it you anyway, because I must say, Pablo looks as shaking up as Michael Spinks about to go into a boxing ring with Mike Tyson. He's just completely, he's just, he's just, he's just, he's a little jittery. He's shaky on his feet. I pass it on to you.

I mean, yeah, let's talk about the Patriots. They look pretty good. More importantly, let's talk about the Patriots former quarterback in Alabama's former quarterback, Mac Jones. Mack Jones. Kyle helps the Niners. I told you Mac was back. I liked Mac Jones.

The coaching staff ruined him. All he does is win right now for the 49ers. As far as the Patriots go, just dreadful. I mean, they vastly outplayed the Steelers yesterday at home. Wearing their own, I might add, sweet retro jerseys, the Patriots, the Red. They look pretty good. That was all they look good, though. Five turnovers, two in the end zone.

They put four fumbles on the ground, lost all of them, May through a pick. That was tip. That wasn't his fault. But it was an ugly performance throughout. When the Steelers kind of limped along, Aaron Rogers had a couple of decent throws, and the pat's loose and deeply, you know, Pablo, deeply mediocre so far. But they do get to play in a terrible division. Other headlines, I think we should note the charges who have made our power rankings list there. Three and O, and not just three and O, but they're three and O, and they've been every team in their division already.

They've beaten the Chiefs, Raiders. and then yesterday, a pretty good Broncos squad. And it feels like Justin Herbert has taken the leap into that close. He's not quite at Allen, you know, Alan Mahomes and Lamar just yet, but he's not far off. Yeah, so speaking of like the computer nerds in the NFL, the ones with actual computers and not elaborate soundbeds that you guys play to torture me as I wake up at 6.59. You're so good. We don't invite you. The real nerds have been wondering when is Justin Herbert going to,

fulfill the prophecy because he has every skill as a pocket passer. And finally, in this offense, we're seeing it. We're seeing Justin Herbert make the leave. John, you're right. And if that's the case, then yeah, we got to consider this team legit. And by the way, the Chargers, you could argue, the Jets of the state of California, this is not something that they feel totally comfortable buying into just yet. But I think they should. I think this sort of a comeback win in week three, is the sort of thing you can dream on. People have been dreaming on it for a while. It finally seems to be reality.

Yeah, so speaking of dreaming, what is going on with Indiana Jones in the Temple of Manning? I mean, how can Daniel Jones be playing this well? He is somebody. So, Sequin Barclay leaves the Giants. He becomes an MVP candidate. Daniel Jones leaves the Giants.

He becomes what they were promised. Daniel Jones with the Colts, I mean, that's a story, of course, that involved Jonathan, Taylor, running back. It involves a team beyond him. But what he is not doing is what his highlight with the Giants suggested he was doomed to do as we watch somebody else run into the end zone. Daniel Jones, when he's on his feet with the Giants, the Sterling signature play was him running for 80 yards and then falling onto his face. Untouched. Untouched. Hit by the Holy Ghost. That's not

what's happening anymore. And I don't believe, I don't believe that. that this revival, I don't believe that this is necessarily going to sustain for this season. But if you're a Giants fan, if you're Richard Haas, again, with his big cigar chomping on it behind the doors of your committee room, I just believe that this is your personal nightmare because 3-0 with Daniel Jones is about as funny as it gets for me at the other side of the table. It's pretty good. Yeah, it was hard getting Richard Haas out last night. He just, yeah, it was ugly. It was just ugly. We at least bump down the Giants. to number three as the worst team in Gotham.

Thank you so much. A slightly frazzled, slightly shaken but never stirred, Pablo Tori. Thank you so much. We'll see if we can get you a ticket. See if we can get you a pass into the Marriott Marquis next Sunday night. Tell the other Rickles that I'm coming for him. Tell the other, all of you are, all of your Borschbel comedians you got back there and UN General Assembly attendees.

Just know that it's getting to me, and I won't stand for it. A couple prime ministers. Okay. Maybe next week, Pablo. Maybe next week. Now, for the real news, Caddy Kay. Yeah, I don't know how to follow Pablo,

but luckily, we've all got coffee down here in Washington, so things, normal service viewers, is now going to be resumed.