Morning Joe - Fallout at CDC after director ousted and other top officials resign

Episode Date: August 29, 2025

Fallout at CDC after director ousted and other top officials resign

Now, Mr. Kennedy and the administration reached out seeking to reassure me regarding their commitment to protecting the public health benefit of vaccination. These commitments and my expectation that we can have a great working relationship to make America healthy again is the basis of my support. He will be the secretary, but I believe he will also be a partner in working for this That was Republican Senator Bill Cassidy of Louisiana, a long-time medical doctor letting out a big sigh seven months ago while showing support for Health Secretary RFK Jr after receiving reassurances on vaccines. But now the health secretary is creating chaos at the CDC as the Trump administration attempts to reshape public health policies. Meanwhile, President Trump is trying to transform the Federal Reserve by firing.

Fed Governor Lisa Cook will preview a hearing later this morning that may decide whether she keeps her job. And we'll bring you the latest on a planned surge of federal agents to Chicago next week as the Trump administration again ramps up its crackdown on immigrants. Good morning. Welcome to morning, Joe. It is Friday, August the 29th, very end of summer, guys. And America is being remade. I'm Cathy Kay, in for Joe, Mika and Willie. Everybody's off except me. I'm so Sorry. With us, we have the host of Pablo Torrey finds out on Meadowlark Media, MSNBC contributor, Pablo Torre, managing editor at the Bullwark, Sam Stein. We are all crying, Sam. I can't remember why, but you said we were going to cry when we left the set of way too early this morning. Yes. columnist and associate editor for the Washington Post, David Ignatius, and politics bureau chief and senior political columnist at Politico. Jonathan Martin is also with us. Jay Mart, thank you very much. So look, let's quickly get straight to the news and then we'll bring on in all. all the table. Crowds of current and former CDC staffers and their supporters lined the streets

of Atlanta yesterday to recognize the officials who resigned in protest after the ousting of CDC director Susan Menares. Now we're learning more about more details about what led to that firing and to the exodus that followed. As NBC news reports, an escalating conflict over an influential vaccine committee was one of the final straws. Health and Human Services Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. had reconstituted the committee, you'll remember, by firing its members and appointing new members, including vaccine skeptics. Well, Monares reportedly refused to rubber stamp the panel's new vaccine recommendations, and she objected to firing members of her team. Hours later, she was pushed out. Other top officials who resigned also cited concerns with the committee, including a guidance document that ignored,

all feedback from Korea CDC staff. Republican Senator Bill Cassidy of Louisiana, who chairs the Senate Health Committee, is now urging the postponement of the vaccine approval meeting set for next month, saying, in part, quote, if the meeting proceeds any recommendations made should be rejected as lacking legitimacy, given the seriousness of the allegations

and the current turmoil in CDC leadership. J-Mart, let's start. this morning with you. I mean, I feel like all of the stories we have are tied together. This is all this big remaking of America. Ezrault client at the moment is calling it an optical illusion. We see all these big things happening, but we don't quite know what they mean or where it's going to end. Talk first about the CDC. How serious is this? Well, it's profound. You saw the outpouring the support in the streets of Atlanta.

You don't typically see government employees throwing bouquets to their bosses outside of federal agencies. Let's put it that way. Let's see. Employees full stop throwing because of that is very often. or private sector, it doesn't matter. So it's profoundly serious in the public health sense. Kids going back to school all across the country last week, this week, next week. And obviously, it's an issue of huge concern. The politics of it are extremely delicate because the now former head of the CDC thought she had an ally in Senator Bill Cassidy. And in her final hours there, reached out to Bill Cassidy. I think Cassidy, I know, tried to have

help her. And it was too late. And effectively, the White House sided with Robert F. Kennedy. Cassidy's in a difficult spot. He's facing a difficult primary next year in Louisiana. He already voted to impeach Donald Trump in 2021. So politically, he's a precarious spot, needs Trump support. But he's a doctor. He understands the importance of vaccinations, especially with kids. And by the way, he was hesitant about supporting Kennedy. precisely because of this issue of vaccinations. And he thought he extracted some level of commitment from Kennedy. It turns out Kennedy is a vaccine skeptic for a reason. And of course he was going to try to overhaul this committee to load it up with vaccine skeptics. And here we are a mere seven months later. Sam, this is the president, isn't it, in the end? Yeah. Deciding that, okay, he himself may want to tout his successes as we've been hearing, he's been saying, to donors. I want to talk about the things I did during COVID in that amazing COVID vaccine

rollout, but realizing that his MAGA base is full of people who are vaccine skeptics, and he's kind of caught through in a rock and a hard place. I don't know how much Trump cares about the details so much as the accolades. And he has always been a little bit of anti-vax curious, even prior to his political runs. But he also loves the fact that Operation Warp Speed was a major success. I've been a little bit surprised, I guess, maybe. maybe I shouldn't have been, about how much leash he's given Kennedy, because Kennedy has... Yeah, me too, actually. Why?

I think he likes the fact that Kennedy completed the ideological horseshoe from him and brought in all these voters and helped him win, and frankly, I think he values that more than anything else. But Kennedy has also taken... Kennedy, too, I mean... Yeah, he's a Kennedy, right? He loves it. Yeah, the idea that... 20th century of prestige and Donald Trump.

I mean, that's just easy, right? Exactly, yeah. And so I think, look, he diverted my train of thought back. But you can do it, Sam. I can't. I figured out. But Kennedy's impact on our public health in America has been more than just profound. It's been damaging. And the chief achievement of Operation Warbsby was to use MRI technology to get a life-saving vaccine to market and online in way faster amount of time than any prior vaccine had come online. Kennedy has now taken concrete steps to end the use of mRNA technology. That could have profound impacts, not just for future

vaccinations, but for cancer treatments. We're talking about people who will die because of this. We're already seeing this morning the implications of what he's doing to the advisory role committee at CDC around vaccines. There's an article in New York Times about CVS pharmacies in 16 states not currently offering the COVID vaccine. Now, I know people don't think of COVID as a big deal anymore, but it is a deal. And people want, there is a portion, a big portion of the public that wants that vaccine that in 16 states cannot get it at CVS right now. That has a huge impact on people. That has a huge impact on health. And this is just the beginning. That advisory committee still has not met. Bill Cassidy says he doesn't want them

to meet now. This is chaos at the highest levels of our health agencies. I don't think the public is going to like this if they can't get access to vaccines that they want and that they need. David, if we're talking about, and we look at all the kind of all the stories we're going to be covering this morning, there is a very profound remaking of this country going on. and the remaking of the country's health and the remaking of America's relationship with science and data seems to be at the center of this. When I put my kind of look at America from the outside hat on, this is a country that is not recognizable when it comes to its relationship with science and scientific progress. This is America that has touted its scientific progress ever since the Second World War that's been at the forefront of scientific progress. This is the country people from around the world want to come to, to study science, to study medicine because America is in the forefront.

Yeah, Katie, I think of all the things Trump has done, the actions against public health agencies, against university research, against the things that we think of as being outside of politics, could prove to be the most damaging, the hardest to repair. These are generational projects. Laboratories at great universities get brought. broken apart, people leave, go to other countries, other countries who are actively recruiting scientists from the United States. It's going to be very hard to get them back. So, you know, reading this morning in the New York Times about the scenes of despair at the CDC, these are professionals who really came into the public health business. It's not all that well-paying, if you're a doctor, medical professional. They came in to try to save lives with a sense of responsibility. The CDC was one of those agencies that was acting on behalf of the public, if there

was a crisis, a sudden outbreak of a virus, infectious disease. They were the people who were on the front lines. That's how they saw themselves. Now they're getting shot at people who think their health problems are to blame for COVID vaccines. One man began literally shooting at the CDC headquarters. Their leadership trying to stand up to what I see as political directives are being fired or are resigning in protest. and this great institution is being shredded. And it's really going to hurt all of us.

That point was made so well by a former CDC chief, Tom Frieden, on National Public Radio last night. This is something that we depend on, and it will depend on more and more as new viruses, new diseases, begin to hit us. Where are they? Where are they? How do we stop them?

It's an important point, too, because we haven't had a crisis yet. yet. There hasn't been an outbreak of a new strain of COVID. There hasn't been, thank God, any kind of a terrorist attack on American soil. What's going to happen when all these agencies that are precisely designed to deal with such tragedies, traumas, crises have to respond to that kind of thing? And that's really troubling. Yeah, this is in the front line of protecting us all. And what happens when some of the top researchers in the country are no longer working here protecting America, but they're working, and I know I've spoken to heads of universities

in the UK. They are quite happy to offer these people jobs. Absolutely. Poaching America. Including the University of Hong Kong, whereas the Chinese are also happy to say, come to Hong Kong. We will take you quite happily. Okay, another area that we should be looking at this morning. A hearing is now set for 10 a.m. this morning in Washington, D.C., after Federal Reserve Governor Lisa Cook filed a lawsuit against President Trump, claiming that his attempt to remove her from her position is unlawful, she is asking to remain an active member of the board. In her lawsuit, which also names the Fed's board of governors and chair Jerome Powell as defendants,

Cook describes her ouster as unprecedented and illegal. The filing argues that the president does not have the power to unilaterally redefine cause, completely unmoored to case law, history and tradition, and conclude without evidence that he has found it. Trump has accused Cook of mortgage fraud, but she has not been charged with a crime. Meanwhile, federal authorities are planning to surge agents to Chicago next week in an effort to increase arrests of unauthorized immigrants. Federal law enforcement officials tell NBC News the plans involve immigration and customs enforcement, border patrol and other federal agencies. In a statement, DHS did not deny the upcoming operations in the city saying, quote,

President Trump has been clear, we are going to make our streets. and cities safe again. Defense officials also say the White House is looking to use a Navy base north of Chicago as a launch pad for federal law enforcement. The base would provide facilities, infrastructure and other logistical needs if the request is granted. This comes as President Trump continues threats of a possible federal troop deployment to Chicago as well.

He posted in part, quote, The people are desperate for me to stop the crimes. Stay tuned. According to Politico, Chicago Mayor Brandon Johnson told, reporters yesterday, the White House has not shared any details. So city officials are relying on a response plan built during last year's Democratic National Convention, which they say included large but peaceful protests and fewer arrests. Okay, so we read those stories together, Pablo, because again, it is part of this process of the country that is changing before our

eyes. You're up in New York. I'm going to quickly pull you in on a kind of market response to this because one of the surprising things, particularly about the Lisa Cook hearing, is we had anticipated that there would be more market response than there has been. Yes, the dollar's fallen a bit, but it hasn't tanked and the markets haven't tanked in the way that some people thought they might be. What's going on with the markets and the Fed? Yeah, look, we have been waiting, frankly, for the larger Trump economic strategy to get over the lag period and actually impact, you know, Main Street America, so to speak. And so the throughline in these conversations

in terms of what's happening with the market, it brings us back to this larger examination of, do we want the Fed? Do we want the CDC? Do we want these organizations, the transportation regulators, to be in place such that their expert advice, which is warning us in a long-term way

and warning us, hey, it's not merely enough to be reactive but proactive. Do we still consider their counsel on this? to be worthy of inclusion in the room. And so the question of how can you get away with this, it does depend on this lag, caddy. And we can talk about the ways in which what's happening in Chicago tends to be the comfort zone for Donald Trump

in terms of the playbook he wants to run. But all of this feels familiar. All this feels of a piece, all that feels like we're in reruns, frankly. I don't know if you guys in D.C. feel that way. Certainly in New York, it just kind of feels like, okay, so we're trying to take the advice of the experts or the guy who's saying, isn't everything fine now?

Doesn't it feel okay right now in the present tense? Enough for you? And that kind of makes me feel like I'm taking crazy pills again. But that's just me in New York by myself on a Friday before Labor Day weekend. I'm so sorry you're all alone. It does something to you're being solitary up on the studio. I know. We won't forget you, Pablo.

We know you're there. Trust but verify. Yeah. Okay. Jonathan, it looks like I read the statute of, of the Federal Reserve, which was founded in 1913, I didn't realize that. And it says that governors shall hold office

for a term of 14 years and less sooner removed for cause by the president, the two key words that we're all going to be talking about these words, for cause. I've spoken to a couple of constitutional lawyers about this. There are people who actually make it their speciality to discover when a president can remove somebody from office or not. It seems that they don't know.

They don't know whether the president is allowed to do this. And we are again in uncharted waters because Donald Trump has been out of office for four years looking at every possible way he can expand presidential power. And this seems to be one of them. But we don't know whether he can do this legally or not because we don't know whether something that she did may have done before she took the post qualifies as four cores while she's in the post. And also because the Fed's a unique public, private, quasi agency. It's not, you know, the Department of Labor or Health and Human Services. it's kind of a different animal. So I think they're statutorily, it's difficult.

I think it's going to the courts. I think that this is going to be litigated by the Supreme Court ultimately. Which can be fascinating is to see if Cook is still welcomed by her federal members of the Federal Reserve Board. In the meantime, I think we're going to a fall in which, whether it's on the Federal Reserve at the Senate Banking Committee, whether it is the CDC, at Health and Human Service, or the Health Committee, or whether it is the war in Ukraine with the Armed Services at Foreign Relations Committee, this is going to be a fall in which a lot of congressional Republicans, especially in the Senate, especially those who are not running again, Tom Tillis, looking at you,

I think are going to be watched to see if they're going to show any hint of independence or at least discomfort with Trump's power grab on all of these fronts. Spoiler, probably not. But it's going to be fascinating to watch because this is as much a test or even a troll, you can say, of them as it is anything else. On all these fronts, the Federal Reserve, the CDC, the war in Ukraine, and his posture toward Vladimir Putin. I think it's going to be putting a lot of these members on the spot when they come back here next week. I'm sorry. Yeah, go ahead. Sorry. On the Federal Reserve quickly, and then I want to get to Ukraine,

there are some checks here because even if Lisa Cook is taken out of her office, even if she is successfully fired, she has to be replaced. It has to go through Senate confirmation. In his first term, the president tried to put two people forward for Senate confirmation who didn't get through. Republican senators said no. Do you think there is a chance this time around that we have, to J-Mart's point, we could have a Senate that stands up and says, actually, you know, this is our chance to do something. I'm smiling. You're smiling. You're smiling so nicely.

Probably not, right? That's always the fault. Well, these are all interconnected. You would have thought, you know, 10 months ago, there's no way a Republican. Republican-run Senate would confirm RFK Jr. Right. To HHS. I mean, after all, Bill Cassidy is a doctor who heads the help committee, and he believes in

vaccines, why in his wildest dreams would he confirm it? And yet, here we are. I'm struck by just, and Jonathan's absolutely right, but just how much everything feels so unsettled on so many different fronts. Just in the last, I feel in the last week or two it's accelerated. I mean, our cities are unsettled. Our health agencies are unsettled. Our foreign policies are unsettled.

And now we go into a fall in which we may end up in a government shutdown because of all this. And I understand Trump likes and thrives honestly in these moments of chaos and that he himself is a chaos agent. But there is something risky about it, I would say, to having so much, so many fires that seem to be erupting at the same time. And the Federal Reserve being unsettled and academia being unsettled. To me, it's exhausting, and maybe that's what he wants, but it also, for voters, has to be exhausting, too. And, you know, I don't know if there's risks and if Republicans who have to consider another Fed nominee or what to do with the CDC eventually say enough, where we've had too much, probably not. But that does seem to be the prevailing theme of this presidency, is just so many different fires all over the place. Just real fast, though, the economy is not unsettled.

It's fairly, it's kind of placid, actually, which is remarkable, given given the, given. the interventions. And a lot of, and a lot of supporters like this activity. What seems unsettled and alarming. Yeah, they sign up for this. This actually looks like action and strength and progress. Okay, let's move to Ukraine. At least 23 people were killed by Russian strikes in the Ukrainian capital of Kiev yesterday. A Russian attack on an apartment building killed four children. Hours later, a blast in the center of Kiev killed one other person that severely damaged the city's British Council and EU offices. Ukraine's Air Force said yesterday that Russia launched nearly 630 total missiles and drones

throughout the country overnight and Thursday. Nearly 40 additional people were also injured by the strikes. David, you write about the war in Ukraine in your latest piece titled A Way Around the Russia-Ukraine deadlock. It reads in part, quote, President Donald Trump has tried to find an exit, but his attempts to mediate the conflict by ingratiating himself with Russian President Vladimir Putin have so far been a flop.

He's now considering walking away from negotiations, which would be a severe personal failure for him and a disaster for Ukraine and Europe. Meanwhile, the bloodbath continues. If Russia chooses unwisely to fight on, then Europe and the United States should begin providing security guarantees for Ukraine now, not later. This isn't chess when a game is heading toward defeat. Step away from the board.

You know, David, it's not that long ago, I guess, you and I were on this set after the Europeans came, and it looked like there was some movement, at least some show of European Union, and the president seemed receptive to some of the things the Europeans were suggesting. I think we were all, you know, aware of the fact that it may not go anywhere, but it seems to have gone not just nowhere, but it seems to have got worse since then quite quickly. Yeah, I think the U.S. and the Europeans, still are aligned, and you're seeing President of Vladimir Putin respond violently, indignantly to that resistance, that sense of solidarity, saying, no, you don't, you know, and here come,

numbers are incredible. 598 drones, 31 missiles, just an overwhelming attack on Kyiv. I don't think that's going to crack European resolve. The question is whether it's going to crack Donald Trump's resolve. He has spoken about the need for Ukraine to have more offensive capability. He has seen when Ukraine gets pounded like this by Putin to be in deep sympathy with the Ukrainians and to be angry at Putin. But this is really the moment in which Trump has to identify whether he's serious enough about making peace to respond to Putin's attempts really to wreck it with significant American force.

What I proposed in the column that you just read is that rather than talking about security guarantees for the future after there's a ceasefire, it's time to institute them now. Now is the time that Ukrainians need security protection, security guarantees that guarantees that civilians in Kyiv, not at the front lines, will be safe in this period where they'll battle towards some eventual ceasefire and end of the war. And I found in writing that piece and sense that there is a growing sense that the United States and its allies are going to have to step up. One important fact, especially for Europeans, is that this week, the Financial Times reported that the U.S. has decided to provide additional intelligence and other support to the Europeans as they stand behind Ukraine going forward. So that reassures the Europeans, makes them more confident they can do this.

But we're talking about a series of really disastrous moments around the world. In Ukraine, one is ahead as we head toward. the fall and winter, this Russian escalation. It's got to be met in some way. Either Trump says, that's it. I'm walking away, or he says, we're going to have up the American commitment. I have heard, Jemar from Republican senators who are close to Donald Trump, that there is appetite up on the hill for a much tougher sanctions package against Russia.

I don't know if it's going to go anywhere, if the president would block it. But this is an area where you do have still a chunk of Republicans who don't like what they're saying. Well, in the Senate, it's more than a chunk. It's the vast majority of Republican senators who are still like Reaganites and foreign policy. I wrote this a couple weeks ago. Lindsay Graham has a bill with 84 co-sponsors now to impose harsh secondary sanctions on Russia. I think Trump can easily wield that as a threat against Putin. If you won't sit down with Zelensky, then I'm going to sign this bill.

The Senate is pushing me on it. I'll sign it. Even if Trump doesn't want to use that bill as a threat caddy, boy, if there was ever an opportunity for this Congress to project some Article I power, some independence on foreign policy, it is this moment, this bill to get Putin back to the table. And look, John Thune can simply say to Donald Trump, I got 84 members up here who want me to pass this bill. They've been banging on me for three months. Lindsay Graham wanted to do it for his birthday in July. And he's been waiting and waiting and waiting. Putin is slow walking you.

He's not even sitting down with Zelensky, which was the concession that you thought you had coming out of Alaska. I got to pass the bill. And I'm skeptical that Thun would do that, but I think he would have enormous cover in his own caucus if you wanted to. Yeah, I think he would too. And that's certainly what we're hearing from the kind of Trump-A-Lyed senators. Senior political columnist for Politico, J-Mart.

Thank you very much. Thanks, coming in on this last day. of August on set. Football is here. For sure. Yeah. I'm excited about that, I think. Not soccer, football.

Yeah, I know. Still ahead on Morning Joe. We'll bring you the latest on the deadly mass shooting in Minneapolis, plus an update on the communication issues at Newark Airport as we move into a busy holiday travel weekend. And a reminder that Morning Joe podcast

is available each weekday featuring our full conversations and analysis. You can listen wherever you get your podcast. You're watching Morning. we will be right back. been identified. Minnesota officials say 10-year-old Harper-Moisky and eight-year-old Fletcher Merkel were killed when a shooter opened fire through a stained glass window at Annunciation Catholic Church. It happened during an annual mass to mark the start of the school

year. 18 people were wounded. Video captured by a parent of one of the students shows children running from the scene. The family for Harper-Moisky released a statement expressing their grief and calling for action in their daughter's memory. Meanwhile, Fletcher Merkel's father is asking the public to remember his son for the person he was. Yesterday, a coward decided to take our eight-year-old son Fletcher away from us. Because of their actions, we will never be allowed to hold him, talk to him, play with him, and watch him grow into the wonderful young man he was on the path to be coming

Fletcher loved his family friends fishing cooking and any sport that he was allowed to play please remember Fletcher for the person he was and not the act that ended his life

give your kids an extra hug and kiss today we love you Fletcher you always be with us oh that is brutal Sam, for every parent, all of us parents sitting around this table, that's the father of Fletcher-Merckels. So the thing you never want to have to think about saying. I've thought a ton about this in like the past 24 hours, as you probably both, I've been on

the show several times to respond to mass shooting events in the moment. And what troubles me a lot is how routine it has now become. When we get into this habit of covering it, we have all seen press conferences like that, and then we move on. And I can't believe how horribly calloused I've become by this. It's awful. And watching that father have to deal with this. And I have kids, and they're eight and about the age, eight and five, about the age of these kids. The fact that this is part of our American social fabric that I worry about sending my kid to school now is something that is totally unacceptable to me. And yet at the same time, paradoxically, I've learned to accept it because this is just how we live.

And I know we're about to get into the responses to this. The other thing that really bothers me is how instinctively political we've become in the aftermath of this, looking for little chestnuts of the shooter's ideology so that we can score a political point against, you know, whoever. When in reality, I think we all know that there's a variety of factors that go into this, but one of them, forever, has been easy access to firearms. And until we just are honest about this, we're going to see more of these scenes, these devastating scenes of this father. And we're going to have to just come to grips with the fact that this cannot be our day-to-day life. It just can't.

I was listening to one of the little girls, David, yesterday. These kids are so, these families are so articulate after this horrible grief. And one of these little girls were saying, you know, we had practiced this before, but we'd practiced it in the school room. in the church. And so we had to adapt that. And to Sam's point, of course, your every little nugget, every little story that gets interpreted, well, why my husband said to me, you know, this is crazy. Kids are having to practice what to do for a shooter in schools. I never grew up like that. This has become part of American education. Listening to that father and the anguish in his voice, trying to be brave and speak about his son, you can't help but think, what if that

was me? That was my child, my grandchild. I know, as I think all us do, this is just a daily part of how you go to school. If you're a teacher, it's a part of how you prepare your classroom. You think about these nightmarish events. Like Sam, I find myself wondering, what's the break point? What's the point at which Americans rebel? We're in this situation where our children, our grandchildren, get more and more at risk. These events are every week or so. When do we rebel from the political limits that say, well, you can't really do anything about gun control?

Well, you know, the Democrats just aren't going to take on assault weapons. When do people demand that life in America be different? I said on the show earlier this week, one of the few people who could actually get an assault weapons ban passed is President Donald Trump. And I hope he thinks about it. You know, he wants to make a difference for the country. He wants to be loved and celebrated.

Well, if there's one thing he could do, it speak to the country in this crisis and say, I'm going to change things. I'm going to make it more difficult to do these terrible shootings because I have a following that can allow me to get. And we have seen him toy with the idea, at least, in the past. Let's see. Yes, it ought to be a moment for him to think about. So the Trump administration is suggesting that the Minneapolis shooting is connected to a larger mental health crisis.

President J.D. Vance made that comment at an event in Wisconsin. yesterday. He then doubled down on it during an interview with Fox News. We really do have, I think, a mental health crisis in the United States of America. We take way more psychiatric medication than any other nation on earth. And I think it's time for us to start asking some very hard questions about the root causes of this violence. And I'm going to be part of that. And the first lady and the president are going to be part of that. But that's going to be an American conversation that we're going to have together. I mean, look, clearly this person was a mentally deranged human being.

Clearly, it was a transgender individual. We're going to learn a lot more. And I think the FBI and local authorities, I've got to try to get to the bottom of this. But you don't go and shoot up innocent children unless you are a clearly screwed up person. I think all of us would agree with that, that you don't go and shoot up innocent children unless you have severe mental problems, right, Pablo. I think that goes without saying raising the trans issue, raising the antidepressants issue, that's a new thought from the vice president in response to one of these mass shootings.

What do you make of what he said? Yeah, look, mental health in America on this planet, obviously a crisis. We should be investing and exploring ways to actually address that. I just failed to see how that is a more useful direction for the American attention than actual practical solutions to gun control.

You may think that gun control is a very pie-in-the-sky concept that is politically not viable for all of the obvious reasons, having to do with special interests in America and what Donald Trump thinks his base is like. I just wonder if anybody plausibly believes that solving mental health is more plausible than making a difference when it comes to, for instance, placca, right? Which is the protection of lawful commerce and arms act, which is a question that I return to, that act, when I think about why isn't there, litigation? Why aren't there civil suits in the way that ensue following massive tragedies involving cars, right? Car manufacturers in America are subject to civil lawsuits when their product is allegedly misused in ways they were not intended. Guns in America, firearms, because of placca, they are, those manufacturers immune. They have federal immunity from civil lawsuits in that way.

That is a practical question, a practical direction for us to maybe wonder about aloud that is not about curtailing the Second Amendment, but using something that America loves, which is a popular response, hopefully inspiring lawsuits to curb the manufacturers, the makers, not the freedom holders, not the gun owners, but the manufacturers. I just wonder at some point if we'll ever get to having that conversation also. It doesn't feel like it in this political climate. I think David is right. The population is there. Poll after poll shows us that there is a desire in America to have some kind of gun reform that would make schools safer. But the infrastructure of American government doesn't seem to meet the moment, doesn't seem match to doing what the American public wants it to do.

Coming up, Dr. Vin Gupta will join us to explain the impact of the changes instituted by Health Secretary RFK Jr. Morning Joe will be right back. Beautiful sunrise in New York City this morning this morning before Labor Day. Happy Labor Day, everybody. Chaos is consuming the CDC after the ousting of the agency's director over vaccine policy and the exodus of other officials who resigned in. protest. Those officials speaking out yesterday promising to continue the fight from the

outside. What makes CDC great are the people that make CDC up, the scientists, everyone that makes this family, and it's a family that defends our country and the health of our children and the health of adults. You are the people that protect America. And America needs to see that you are the people that protect America. And we are going to be your loudest advocates. So let's bring in NBC medical contributor, Dr. Vin Gupta. Dr. Gupta, thank you so much for joining us. Give us a sense for viewers who are waking up to this story this morning of why they should care about what's happening at a government agency like the CDC.

Katty, good morning. It's a question that's top of mind for everybody is, you know, why does this matter and how is this going to impact me? mean, there's a few things. First of all, you know, these acronym CDC, ASIP, FDA, you know, often there is a distance that you're pointing out between some sort of advisory committee on immunizations and, you know, what does it mean for what I can get at my pharmacy when I need it? But that's exactly what's happening right now is these little nits and these conversations that Kennedy is having when it comes to say delaying an advisory committee.

for vaccine experts to meet. He's delayed this and delayed this and now there's no CDC leadership really in effect. What's happening is by doing that, by neutering that mechanism, it's impacting the ability of any American family to get vaccinated against things

that they would typically be able to make a decision on to get vaccinated at their local pharmacy down the street because their pharmacist, Caddy, and this is the piece about how this impacts people across the country. Pharmacists can no longer do their job. pharmacists have administered 90% since the peak of the pandemic of COVID vaccines since the

peak of the pandemic, 90% of them. And so you can play this forward. This is not just the COVID vaccine. This is what happens on the road with other vaccines. So what they're doing might seem esoteric. It might seem filled with acronyms, but it's impacting what the pharmacist on the street can and cannot do. Vin, Sam Stein, good to see again. We're talking a bit about sort of operationally how you can get vaccines in this climate and the fact that, you know, pharmacies like CVS now in at least 16 states may restrict COVID vaccines because of this. I want to broaden that a little bit because a lot of people turn to these institutions and their leaders to just have a sort of general understanding and confidence in the medicine.

And in September, Robert F. Kennedy Jr. is going to unveil a study that he is engineered about whether vaccines cause autism. And the expectation, frankly, because he's been very open about it, is that he's going to conclude against all scientific evidence that, yeah, vaccines cause autism. And it's not true.

But talk a little bit about the impact that that could have on just sort of the layperson and how they think about vaccines and how they might now suddenly have skepticism about taking vaccines and the compounding effects that that skepticism may cause

for our public health. You know, I think, Sam, the challenge here is gold standard science, randomized controlled trial in the world of medicine, published in a leading medical journal, New England Journal of Medicine, for example, no longer matters because what matters is a megaphone and the ability to be really good in marketing, which he is amazing at. He is incredible. I mean, take what Maha. Maha is a marketing effort. There's no substance behind it, as we've now seen over the last six months. But it's, you know, rolls off the tongue, and it's become the acronym of choice defining this, you know, his tenure in this administration. But that's what matters more than, to your point, years and years, decades of research showing that there's no correlation between administering a vaccine, a progressively increasing childhood vaccine regimen, and the incidence of autism, which is also increasing for unrelated reasons. It doesn't matter. But it matters there is marketing, skills at marketing, and putting out a message in which he's where they get at. Yeah, Dr. Gupta, I think we could sort of outline all the many ways in which RFK Jr. has the appearance, the behavior of, I believe this is a scientific term, a quack. But I want to get to the question of like, okay, so who are they trying to install atop the CDC?

Because it's Jim O'Neill, and I'm just reading our friendly neighborhood research package here. a close ally of investor Peter Thiel, Celcon Valley investor, entrepreneur, has worked on issues such as longevity. What is the sort of ideology that is being favored here, if you were to describe who Jim O'Neill is from that perspective? You know, I mean, Jim O'Neill has been a technocrat in the George W. Bush administration. You know, hasn't done anything super controversial prior to the pandemic, Pablo.

But I would say, just to give your viewers a sense, this is an individual early on in the pandemic who endorsed very strongly, ivermectin, hydroxy quirkwindley, all the talking points of the president back in the day. He's put out direct endorsements of those, you know, obviously just misinformed views. So this is somebody that in many ways traffics and will rubber stamp is the fear. All the policies that Dr. Monterez and the leadership that just resigned said, no, thank you. And so that's the concern here is that his public statements here are very much in line with Kennedy's thinking. and he will be a rubber stamp.

NBC News medical contributor, Dr. Vin Gupta. Thank you so much for joining us this morning. Thank you. Still ahead. The Pentagon is going to honor a general who fought against the American government. We'll tell you who it is and how. Next on Morning Joe. For a look at some of the other stories making headlines,

the three former Memphis police officers who were convicted of federal charges related to the death of Tyree Nichols will now face a new trial. A U.S. District Judge issued that order yesterday, citing concerns about bias in the previous case, as the judge who presided over the trial reportedly suggested one of the defendants, was a gang member. Last fall, three officers were found guilty of witness tampering, but were acquitted on charges that they had violated Nichols' civil rights, causing his death. Nichols died in 2023, just three days after he was pulled over by police.

Video showed officers violently kicking and punching him during that traffic stop. The Federal Aviation Administration issued a ground stop at Newark Airport yesterday, oh dear, because of equipment issues, incoming flights were halted until about 1 p.m. The FAA says air traffic control has briefly lost their radio frequencies. It's not known why. Now the agency is further reducing Newark's flight capacity, cutting incoming flights to 28 per hour until at least today. This airport is cursed. This airport is cursed. I will do anything in my, anything to avoid Newark at this point. I will go anywhere. Yeah, walk. Drive. Take a little bit.

vote. Do not fly out of Newark. Sorry, Newark. Sorry. And the Pentagon will bring back a portrait of General Robert E. Lee to the West Point Library. The painting features the slave guiding the Confederate General's force. It was removed three years ago after Congress passed a law to strip the names of Confederate leaders from military bases. David Ignatius, we have a lot going on. Well, the cult of Robert Lee has haunted West Point ever since the Civil War. You know, you keep thinking that we're going to get over it. He fought with the Confederacy. He lost. He was all against the evening. He lost. But there's still that this image of him as the decent general, the person who was so admired by his fellow cadets.

You know, the renaming of bases, the removal and replacement of statues, you know, there are moments when it just seems exhausting, like everything else in America. you know, let's just settle on a roster and have a regular rotation and we're just sending them all to New York Airport. That's also I love that it's Donald Trump, proud son of the South. No. Cosmopolitan New York are extraordinary.

Who also, by the way, doesn't like losers. No, I know. Well, this is just ain't a macro- That would be. That's the, Robert Lee, Mr. President, was a loser. Yeah, I know. You don't want to be surprised. But this is classic Trump. He just loves having little wedge issues to you know, push people's buttons.

You know, we play along, I guess. But, you know, I don't think he cares that much about Robert Ely. We were talking during the break about the target of the day in terms of the revenge campaign. Today's target is George Soros and his son. Out of the blue, you have the president posting on social media. There ought to be a RICO prosecution of George Soros, you know, famous international. Let's see. Let's see what happens with that one.

Yeah.