Morning Joe - Former FBI Director James Comey indicted

Episode Date: September 26, 2025

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Good morning and welcome to morning, Joe. It's Friday, September 26th. Former FBI Director James Comey has been indicted by a federal grand jury in Virginia. The former bureau chief is charged with one count of making a false statement and one count of obstruction of congressional proceedings. Coimmy has denied any wrongdoing. If convicted, he faces up to five years in prison. The case was brought by Lindsey Halligan, the president's newly sworn in, handpicked replacement for the U.S. attorney for the Eastern District of Virginia. Career prosecutors at the office and those who work underneath her tried to advise against the charges in a memo to Halligan earlier this week, citing a lack of evidence. The previous U.S. attorney resigned after the president said he should be fired for his part in refusing to bring this case, citing insufficient evidence. President Trump insists he did fire him. Comey was one of the three prominent critics that the president specifically named in a social media post

addressed to the attorney general or urging her to pursue the cases against him. And Willie, if you read the front of the New York Times, morning in a story by Maggie Haberman, Alan Fuhr, and Joan O'Bromwich. They sum it up this way. The clearest way to understand the extraordinary nature of the indictment on Thursday of James B. Comey, the former FBI director, is to offer up a simple recitation of the facts. An inexperienced prosecutor loyal to President Trump in the job for less than. than a week, filed criminal charges against one of her boss's most reviled opponents. She did so

not only at Mr. Trump's direct command, but also against the urging of both her own subordinates and her predecessor, who had just been fired for raising concerns that there was insufficient evidence to indict. And that's where we are this morning, Willie, and bad news all. all around. Many people in Washington I talked to last night after this came down said, we've crossed the Rubicon. Yeah. I mean, that's about as plain as you can put at the New York Times this morning saying factually that the previous U.S. attorney, by the way, appointed by President Trump, not some deep stater, said there was no case here, no charges could be brought. He's forced out of his job. Donald Trump puts in his personal attorney who until a week ago was not

a prosecutor ever in her career. And within less than a week, we get this indictment of James Comey. And yes, you're right. Now, many of his other opponents, past, present, real, and perceived are on notice. Ahead of yesterday's indictment, President Trump himself said, yes, when asked, I could get involved in the Comey case if I wanted to. We have very professional people headed up by the Attorney General and Todd, Todd Blanche, and Lindsey Allegan, who's very smart, good lawyer, very good lawyer, they're going to make a determination. I'm not making that determination. I think I'd be allowed to get involved if I want, but I don't really choose to do so. I can only say that Comey's a bad person. He's a sick person.

I think he's a sick guy, actually. He did terrible things at the FBI. But I don't know. I have no idea what's going to happen. After the indictment came in, the president celebrated on social media, writing, justice in America, one of the worst human beings this country has ever been exposed to is James Comey, the former corrupt head of the FBI. That's from the president of the United States. The attorney general and director of the FBI also posting statements, writing, No one is above the law. Comey himself responded to the charges defiantly in a video posted to social media. My family and I have known for years that there are costs to standing up to Donald Trump, but we couldn't imagine ourselves living any other way. We will not live on our

knees, and you shouldn't either. Somebody that I love dearly recently said that fear is the tool of a tyrant, and she's right, but I'm not afraid, and I hope you're not either. I hope instead you are engaged, you are paying attention, and you will vote like your beloved country depends upon it, which it does. My heart is broken for the Department of Justice, but I have great confidence in the federal judicial system, and I'm innocent. So let's have a trial and keep the faith. Let's have a trial and keep the faith, says Comey, whose arraignment now is set for October 9th. He will appear before U.S. District Court Judge Michael Nakmanoff, an appointee of President Biden. And Joe, there's a potential five-year prison term here on these charges, obstruction of justice, making a false statement.

Interesting to note, the short two-page indictment signed only by the U.S. attorney, Lindsey Halligan. They're typically signed by the prosecutors who brought the case as an endorsement of the charges. No prosecutor's signature appears on this indictment. Well, because nobody wants to be a part of this indictment. They understand this was an order by the president of the United States. that it broke and it violated all precedents, all legal norms, that it is a violation of the most basic understandings of the line that is supposed to be between the president of the United States and the attorney general.

But here we actually have the president ordering his attorney general and ordering this new attorney who's not experienced. She's never been a prosecutor before to move. forward with this. And the President of the United States saying that he had nothing but the best people there is, again, flies once again in the face of the basic facts. So it's, you know, it's a tough day. It's a tough day for people who believe in the rule of law, who believe in the political norms and the constitutional norms that have shaped this country, at least post-Watergate. And you have Republicans, some Republicans, who are cheering this.

So just to be clear, they are cheering the president of the United States going on social media, demanding that his political enemies be arrested. President of the United States demanding on social media that his political enemies be arrested to his attorney general. The Attorney General then, I suppose, tries to get the Trump-appointed U.S. attorney to bring charges against a former director of the FBI. The Trump-appointed prosecutor says, no, I can't do that. There's nothing here. We have no case. So the President of the United States fires that Trump-appointed prosecutor and gets somebody out of his office and says, go down there.

And have at it. And then the president says yesterday, oh, I don't have anything to do. It's just, it's, it's, it's, it's again, as we've been saying about the FCC, as we've been saying about so many things that Donald Trump has been doing, especially over the past few weeks, Republicans must understand that what goes around comes around. They must understand that if there's a billionaire independent who decides to be president of the United States, gets elected, and then decides to start going after Republicans, Republicans, Republican senators, Republican House members, Republican judges, Republican political operatives, all that independent will have to do is just pick up the phone, call his or her attorney general, and say, arrest Republican Senator A, arrest Republican political opponent B, go after conservative think tank C. I mean, it's, again, extraordinarily dangerous. But I will tell you, James Comey, a man who has somehow managed to offend both sides of the political landscape over the past 15, 20 years, actually last night united those who actually still believe

and the rule of law in America, and obviously inspired by what he had to say about having to now defend himself against bogus charges that even Donald Trump's own prosecutors didn't want charged. And for all the talk over the last several years of alleged weaponization of government, here it is right in front of us, the weaponization of government. Also have to note the timing, The statute of limitations, five years on the alleged crime here, was up on Tuesday. So time was of the essence for President Trump and his new U.S. attorney in Virginia. We've got the legal, political angles of this story covered. Let's bring in the co-host to the fourth hour staff writer at the Atlantic Jonathan Lemire, NBC News, National Affairs Analyst,

and a partner in chief political columnist at Puck, John Heilman, MSNBC Justice and Intelligence correspondent, Ken Delanian, NBC News, and MSNBC legal analyst Danny Savalos, and former U.S. Attorney and MSNBC contributor Barbara McQuaid. Got a great group to work through this story for us. Good morning to you all. Ken, I want to start with you, and you've got some new reporting this morning on kind of the timeline about how this all went down with the new U.S. attorney, Lindsay Halligan. Yeah, that's right, Willie.

My colleagues, Carol Lenig, Vaughn Hilliard and I have learned that Lindsay Halligan, the newly installed U.S. attorney who was an associate secretary at the White House and is Donald Trump's former defense attorney and has never prosecuted a case. She brought this case to the grand jury by herself, we are told. She presented for a couple of hours yesterday afternoon without any help from other prosecutors in the office. At least they weren't presenting the evidence to that grand jury and acknowledging that she got 12 grand jurors to go along with this case. That underscores, though, that she's going to have difficulty finding a prosecutor within that office, a real prosecutor who actually understands federal criminal procedure, to take up this case. Now, she could always

hire someone from the outside. There are plenty of right-wing lawyers who would leap at the chance to prosecute this case. But people within the Justice Department, professionals who do this for a living are balking. And in fact, James Comey's son-in-law, Troy Edwards, who is a senior lawyer in the National Security Division in that very office, the Eastern District of Virginia, immediately when this indictment was announced. And we should explain to folks that what the charges are here, which is that James Comey is charged with lying to Congress and obstructing justice related to testimony that he gave at a Senate hearing five years ago. As you said, the statute of limitations was about to expire. And this was a hearing about the Trump-Russia investigation,

but the testimony at issue was not about the Trump-Russia investigation. It was about whether James Comey had authorized his deputy, Andrew McCabe, at the time, to leak a story to the Wall Street Journal back in 2018 about investigations into the Clinton Foundation. There was a whole Inspector General investigation of this issue, and that investigation found that Andrew McCabe lacked candor, in other words, that he lied. But it also found that James Comey did not authorize that leak, that he was aware of it. McCabe told them about it, but he didn't authorize it, and that's the way Comey testified. Now, we don't know what new evidence, if any, has been on earth, what they

presented to the grand jury to convince 12 grand jurors to move this case along. But we're not aware of anything in the public record that bolsters the idea that Comey lied to Congress. And I got to say, so Lindsey Graham is on Fox News last night reacting to this. And he talked for five minutes about what he perceived Comey's sins were in the Trump-Russia investigation, which to me underscores, This isn't really about what James Comey said in answer to that question. This is about people on the Magaside wanting to punish him because they believe that he lied to the FISA court or did all these horrible things. And by the way, another prosecutor, a special counsel, John Durham, was appointed by Donald Trump. He looked into that whole issue thoroughly.

He didn't charge James Comey or anyone else with these issues except for a low-level FBI lawyer. And so this is really a sop to the people on the maggot side who, cannot get over the fact that the Trump-Russia investigation was conducted, according to the Inspector General, fairly and properly, and was a thing that the FBI had to do at the time, guys. Well, and you bring up John Durham, poor John Durham, a man who before crossing Donald Trump's path actually was a respected prosecutor. He got involved in what Donald Trump himself would call a witch hunt, flew all over the world, talking to witnesses, trying to find any evidence that James Comey or anybody else did anything untoward or illegal in the Russian investigation.

And he found nothing. The few cases he brought, he ended in humiliating manner for him. It was an absolute bomb of an investigation trying to investigate the investigators. And so Lindsey goes on, my God, Lindsay Graham goes on for. for five minutes talking about something that has nothing to do with this indictment. He doesn't talk about the fact that a Trump prosecutor said, no, I'm not going to bring this case. I'll quit before I bring this case. She couldn't get anybody to go in and help her yesterday try to get an indictment. But Barbequay, it's pretty simple. And I talk about this all the time. You know, there's so many people in Washington, D.C., and it's not just with

the Trump administration. I've seen this for years. They get into the White House or they get to the administration and they think what's happening is going to last forever. I will not name names, but I have told people running white houses. One instance where a president was at the height of his popularity and I leaned over to one of his top page and I said, you know you're only renting this office. You know you're going to be gone. in a blink of an eye. People come in here, they think that they're here forever. They aren't. And you have to be held accountable for everything you do in here. Never forget that. I've had that talk probably with three, four administrations through the years.

And you get a sense that the prosecutors that are refusing to take part in this understand there are lawyers who did what Donald Trump wanted them to do against their better wisdom, against their legal training, against the code of ethics, against legal norms, and they're just barred now. So I wonder if that's a lot of what was going on when you had Donald Trump's own prosecutor. Say, no, no, no, I'm out of here because I'm going to be held accountable. either next year when the Democrats take over, I'm going to be held accountable when a Democratic president's elected. I'm not going to bring a scam case because of Donald Trump's orders over truth, social. I wonder if they already understand the consequences are coming legally in terms

of disbarment or even something worse down the road. Yes, I don't know what motivated them, but I will comment on Ken's reporting that it was Lindsay Halligan herself who took this case to the grand jury. That is extraordinary reporting because it just isn't done. She has been on the job for all of what, five days. She has no experience practicing before a grand jury. Federal prosecutors get extensive training in grand jury practice in the rules that apply to a grand jury and the ways to present a case. The fact that she couldn't find a single assistant U.S. attorney in an office of well over 100 of them is very telling to me. It's also telling that she is the loan person to have signed that indictment. She could not find any career professional to do that. I served as U.S.

attorney for almost eight years after 12 years as an assistant U.S. attorney. Do you know how many indictments I signed while I was U.S. attorney? Zero because I trusted my people to do it. And they trusted me after I'd reviewed the indictment that they could do the job. And so it tells me that she couldn't find any career professional to take this case to the grand jury. That's extraordinary, and it really does demonstrate the weakness of the case, and as you point out, the potential ethical lapses that are occurring here. And again, Jonathan Lemire, we have to underline, as Ken just said, again, that a Justice Department Inspector General investigated this very allegation against James Comey and found no wrongdoing on his part. Should add that in.

We could also add in that many people believe who watched the 2016 election. It was James Comey's letter, 11 days before the election that perhaps tipped the scales and made Donald Trump president of the United States. There is so much here. But clearly, as Joe said, right out of the top, talking to people last night, a line has been crossed here. The independence of the Justice Department appears shattered to a lot of people who've worked there over the course. of their career. But the president's celebrating last night. This is precisely what he wanted. Yeah, we're here. This is an unprecedented, dark and terrifying time for a lot of people in this country. Just days after, President Trump explicitly told his Department of Justice to go

after his political foes. They did just that. And we did indeed have Trump last night on True Social, claiming that James Comey, quote, one of the worst human beings this country has ever been exposed to, James Comey. And you're right, Comey, of course, was his, his at the end of the 2016 election, his move to reopen the Clinton investigation, tip the scales towards Trump there at the end. I remember being in a Trump rally in New Hampshire when that news broke, and there was a sense among his staff and the crowd that, hey, we've got a shot here. But Trump never forgave Comey for a briefing he got a few weeks later

as president-elect at Trump Tower about the Russia investigation and about how Comey during the first few months of his term would not pledge his loyalty to Trump. He said it was to the job, to the Constitution. he wouldn't give it to the president personally. And I know we say a lot on this show, and Joe is right in terms of the temporary nature of being in power, but I will say those people around Trump think this won't be temporary and they're taking steps. We should listen to some Democrats, Gavin Newsom, J.D. Pritzker and alike, who think they're

trying to rig things, set up situations around the midterms and maybe beyond in 2028 to ensure those elections are not free and fair, therefore they'd stay in power and not suffer the consequences. Danny, there's so much to dive through here. We should also note the grand jury did not bring one of the counts against them. There were two they did, one they chose not to. So talk to us a little bit about that. And also just talk to us about next steps for this Comey case, but certainly anyone else

who President Trump in that truth social post or just over his years in public life has said, hey, that's one of my political enemies. All of those people, politician, law enforcement, members of the media, average civilians, have to be on alarm. Yeah, this is the new Saturday Night Massacre. And for all the reasons that everyone's been talking about this morning, in my view, it may be worse. And here's another factor that folks aren't really talking about too much is the actual charges themselves. These are what I call red flag, for me at least, signs of a politically motivated prosecution. Because anytime I see standalone charges for Section 1001 for false statements, unless, you know, sometimes they're with other

charges, money laundering, something like that, something that is a more serious charge. Because I want to say right at the outset, Section 1001 false statements is not a serious charge. And I say that, knowing that for many years when folks in Trump's orbit were charged with those crimes like Roger Stone, Michael Flynn, Michael Cohen, George Papadopoulos, Rick Gates, I said it then too, even though a lot of people back then said, oh, these are very serious charges. Sorry, they're not. Willie was correct. They have a five-year maximum, statutory maximum, but your guidelines range for these is zero to six months.

I can't tell you the last time I had a federal prosecution or a criminal case with a guidelines range of zero to six months. Usually it's a million to two million months. Federal prosecutions, federal crimes carry very serious penalties. So that for me is a red flag. And frankly, it was a red flag back when those people I just mentioned in the Trump orbit were charged. And I think that's something that's important to consider too. I want to be clear. Those other prosecutions didn't have these other facts where you have a president essentially demanding prosecution, where you have a completely inexperienced prosecutor, U.S. attorney, bringing this to the grand jury herself. And boy, Jonathan, that is the one thing. Unfortunately, grand jury proceedings are so secret.

I wish I could have seen someone who had never presented to a grand jury presenting such an important case to a grand jury. I've never been a prosecutor. I would not be presenting before a grand jury, even though I've read hundreds of grand jury transcripts. I only wonder, I'd be very curious to see what that transcript says, when and if it ever comes out. And again, this is a standalone case, John Hyland. As Danny said, never have we had facts, certainly not in our political lifetime, certainly not since Watergate. Have we had such an abuse of power coming.

not only from the White House, but also the Justice Department in a charge. And again, let's just sum this up the way the New York Times did this morning, Maggie Haberman, Alan Fuhr, and Jonah Abramwich, an inexperienced prosecutor loyal to President Trump in the job for less than a week, filed criminal charges against one of her boss's most reviled opponents. She did not only do so at Mr. Trump's direct command. but also against the urging of both her own subordinates and her predecessor, who had just been fired for raising concerns that there was insufficient evidence to indict.

The other professionals, the other people who are probably very concerned about how after Donald Trump's first term ended, local bars, not the Democratic Party, but local bar associations and state bar associations actually started going after them for professional lapses and some got disbarred. Others, unfortunately, ended up in front of judges. It's, again, it's chilling what Donald Trump has done over the past week, especially regarding his orders to start going after his political enemies. But how remarkable. that all the other lawyers moved to the side and said,

we're not touching this. So you actually had somebody who'd never been a prosecutor before having to take this dubious case in front of the grand jury alone. You know, Joe, it's, yes, all the things you just said are right.

And I'll tell you what it reminds me of and what it were to go back to the early, the earliest days of the Trump 2.0 era, in a mirror image of this and a premonition of where we were going to land here, which was the Eric Adams case, where when the Trump administration decided to drop the charges that the case that was bringing against Eric Adams, the career prosecutors in that case all refused to go to New York and drop the case against Adams to the point where, rather than an inexperienced lawyer like Lindsay Halligan,

you had the highest, in some respects, the highest practicing attorney in the United States at that moment, who was Emil Beauvais. At that point, the acting deputy attorney general, equally unusual, had to go, went up and made the presentation to make the case that the charges against Adam should be dropped.

People like Barb McQuay and Daniel Savalos and other people who had experience about this at the time said, we never see anything like this. You never see a deputy attorney general. go into court alone and have to make a presentation like, this never happens. And it doesn't happen because normally the career prosecutors go to make that case. And I remember thinking at the time, and we talked about this on the air, you thought, well,

if this is what's going on in this Eric Adams case and you're already starting to see a revolt of the career prosecutorial staff at the DOJ, where is this going to take us going forward? It was the first kind of the first sign of just how profound and how pervasive the politicization of the DOJ would be under Donald Trump. And since that day forward, we've seen purges at the DOJ. We've seen career prosecutors leave. We've seen career prosecutors, including James Comey's daughter, get fired out of that office. We saw Todd Blanche do another unprecedented thing. Go down and conduct the one-on-one interview with Jolay Maxwell and the next day.

or a couple days later, she suddenly and mysteriously and inexplicably is sent off, is moved out of her current, or what was her prior incarcerative state and moved into a club fed. That, again, unprecedented, never heard anything like that. All of these things driven by Donald Trump in a very direct kind of command and control way. And again, you raised it. At the end of this week, you know, you think about where we were a week ago, the chairman of the FCC, Having heard Donald Trump and seen Donald Trump on social media say that he wanted Jimmy Kimmel fired that Jimmy Kimmel would be next, you saw Brendan Carr abandon all of his previous positions on the First Amendment, all of his previous views about how free speech couldn't be regulated with respect, particularly to parody and satire and turn around and essentially threaten Disney affiliates with losing their licenses and see Jimmy Kimmel get taken off the air. Now, we got the reprieve from that, at least the brief reprieve from it, in the middle of the week. But, man, these are all of a piece.

They are all the same things. Donald Trump punishing enemies and using things like the FCC or the DOJ to do his bidding and professionals at those places saying, oh, my God, where are we now? So, Candelanian, what happens from here? We just said the arraignment would be October 9th, but what happens to James Comey today this weekend over the next several days? where does this case go? We're still reporting this out, Willie. There was some talk last night that Comey was going to surrender for processing at an FBI office in the Eastern District of Virginia today.

This morning, we're still trying to figure out whether that's going to happen because it's not necessarily true that he has to do that now that the arraignment has been set in front of Judge Nachmanoff. But a lot of legal experts are looking at this and saying this case may never get to trial because there's going to be all of the things that don't. Trump did on social media, both before and after, the bringing of these charges, will be the subject of motions to this judge for vindictive and malicious prosecution, for improper pretrial publicity. Look, the Trump administration was just chastised in the Luigi Mangione case for making improper

pretrial statements, the Attorney General and the president and others. This post on social media excoriating James Comey is going to be Exhibit A in that kind of motion. And so, This judge is going to have a lot of work to do before this case ever gets to a jury adjudicating some of these claims. And, you know, looking at James Comey's pre-recorded video reminded me, because I covered him when he was the FBI director. He is a charismatic and eloquent figure. Whatever you think of him, he's a great talker and unafraid to communicate publicly. He used to have weekly roundtables where he would answer any question from reporters. That's something Chris Ray never did, and Cash Patel never.

thought of doing. And what the Trump administration has done here is they've given this man a giant megaphone now that he didn't have before. And that may be something they regret down the line, guys. Again, it's, again, it's just, it bears repeating. You do this. You turn the person you hate into a mortar. You make them bigger than ever. You unite people. behind them. Donald Trump understood this in his own political campaign, and yet he's now making Comey a martyr, a martyr for the rule of law. That will be the first line in his obituary. He was an FBI director, but he became a martyr because a president said on social media to an attorney general go and arrest this guy for the first time in our lifetime. And so now the world

looks at James Comey and they see that he is a political and a legal martyr. Nobody thought that that way yesterday, but they sure as hell are going to think that way today and tomorrow and into the future. And again, if you don't believe me, again, just go back to the 2024 campaign and look how the Republican Party was ready to move on to a certain Florida governor and then the indictment started coming down against Donald Trump and that brought the Republican Party together behind him and eventually led him to be elected the next president of the United States. This is not hard. And yet the White House keeps making the same same. Jimmy Kimmel. Record numbers. I mean, talk about going viral. It's extraordinary

what Donald Trump did for Jimmy Kimmel's career and what he has now done for James Comey's reputation. That's the political side of it. Really quickly before we go, I want to ask you first, Dan, And then I'll get to Barb on the prosecutor's side. But is it a defense attorney, Danny? Tell me, what would you do? If you had the president of the United States saying to his attorney general, this guy is my political enemy, arrest him. He's got to be put in jail. He's guilty as hell, saying something along those lines.

He's guilty as hell. He's one of the worst people in the world. Time's running out. Remember that one? Time's running out. It's statute of limitations. You've got to do it now. We've got to bust this guy.

Okay. I've just put the ball on the T and given you a bat to hit with it. What would you do hitting that ball off the T? It seems like an open and shut case, doesn't it? Let's start with the primary defenses. Attack the statute. The defense is going to be this was not a material statement. this was not a false statement. And even if it was, it wasn't a knowingly false statement.

But then we get into what you just described. And I expect you will see a motion for dismissal based on selective prosecution. The problem is all federal prosecution is selective. And these motions have a very, very small chance of winning. That being said, this is probably the best case ever for a selective prosecution motion. But be warned, they are not often successful because, after all, that's what federal prosecutors do. They have limited jurisdiction, so theirs is a sort of selective process. They can't prosecute everything that falls within all federal criminal statutes, so they have to look around and decide where to focus their resources. And that, the government will argue when this motion comes, is exactly what

they did in this case. The problem for them is going to be the paper trail of evidence. Not so much things like the U.S. attorney is inexperienced, but far more compelling is the public statements that the president has made saying, get this person. But again, I'll say it for the third time. Be warned, that part of the defense is probably, as crazy as it sounds, the weaker part. The better defense for Comey is to attack the charges themselves. statements weren't false, they weren't material, and even if they were untrue, they weren't made knowingly. That's its best shot. And they've already been investigated. And yet, Barb, while this doesn't usually work,

you usually don't have a president ordering his attorney general to arrest a political enemy. Let me say that again. You usually don't have a United States president. president ordering the attorney general of the United States of America to charge and arrest a political opponent of his. In public, we had it here. Tell me, what judge is not going to look at that and say, where are you wasting my time here? You want to have your political fights do it, but do it outside of this courtroom. This is a disgrace. What judge would not do that? Yeah, just to pick up on Danny's definition of selective prosecution, it is true that prosecutors

exercise discretion in choosing which cases to bring, but there is case law that due process is violated when prosecutions are selected on an arbitrary basis and not a legitimate law enforcement basis. And one of those prohibited bases is political motivation. Now, as Danny said, it's rarely successful because it's very difficult. to prove the motivation of a prosecutor. If you've got the evidence, usually that's enough. But in this case, as you said with this incredible paper trail, I think it might be pretty easy

for a defense attorney. So if I'm a prosecutor in this case, God forbid, I cringe every time I see one of these posts from Donald Trump because he has just made the defense case easier. Appreciate all of your analysis. And this conversation will continue. Former U.S. Attorney Barbara McQuaid, MSN.N.B.C. Justice and Intelligence correspondent, Ken Delanian and NBC News and MSNBC legal analyst, Danny Savalos. Thank you all.

Still ahead here on Morning Joe, Defense Secretary Pete Heggzeth, has ordered an urgent meeting with hundreds of America's top military generals. Retired U.S. Army Lieutenant General Mark Hurtling, warning our adversaries will be watching and waiting as our generals and admirals fly home. Join us to explain. Plus, we're bringing the latest on the investigation into the deadly shooting at the ice facility in Dallas. You're watching Morning, Joe. We'll be right back. Beautiful live picture, sunrise over the nation's capital on this Friday morning. Defense

Secretary Pete Higgseth has ordered hundreds of top military leaders to gather at a Marine Corps base in Virginia next week. It's not clear why the meeting has been called. More than a dozen people familiar with the matter telling the Washington Post, the directive was sent to nearly every top U.S. military commander around the world that includes officials in conflict zones stationed throughout Europe, the Middle East, and the Asia-Pacific region. According to the Post, every source it spoke with said it could not recall a defense secretary ever, ordering such a large gathering of military leaders on such short notice. Joining us now, retired U.S. Army Lieutenant General Mark Hurtling and President Emeritus of the Council on Foreign Relations,

Richard Haas. Good morning to you both. General, I'll start with you. First of all, how unusual is this in your experience? And what do you suspect is going on here? Yeah, Willie, if this is usual and this is unusual, we're way out in terms of unusual in this one. It is never, that I know, have ever occurred in the history of the military where everyone is brought in. Now, certainly during wartime, generals commanding in a theater brought in individually with their team, or the president or the Secretary of Defense visits them at their theater of operation. But I've never seen anything like this before. And it just seems extremely bizarre and strange.

Well, General, let me just ask you strategically. How just how stupidly dangerous is this? It's pretty dangerous, Joe. What I'd say is, you know, a lot of people are looking at it from the general's perspective, them thinking, what the heck are we going to hear? because I don't think there's, from what I've talked to some of my colleagues that are still active, they don't know what this is about. So it could be about a shifting national security strategy.

It could be cuts to the general officer corps. Secretary Hedgeseth has mentioned that several times. It could be about the upcoming budget stalemate or it could be concerns over information leaks or press leaks. But general, don't they have communication systems or they can do that? so we can actually keep our generals and our admirals in the field where they are needed? Certainly, Joe. And they're called secure video teleconferences. It is the same thing as a secure computer, not Snapchat, not Signals app.

This is no kidding, secure stuff. It's just like a sipper computer. But the problem is, when you move that many general officers to Washington, it's not just the generals that are concerned, I would suggest that both our allies and our foes are thinking to themselves, what the hell is going on in Washington? When a general comes into the Pentagon to talk to his boss, the Secretary of Defense, no one really knows it. There may be indicators. But when you're talking about publicizing over 800 senior leaders, commanders, as well as their senior enlisted advisors, their sergeant majors or their Navy chief petty officers, this is something that's going to garner attention where people are going to say,

What's going on with the U.S. military? What are they planning? Why is this so important that you're pulling 800 as suggested by the Washington Post are more into the Washington, D.C. area. It's just, it's undescribable. Yeah, and it's not just foreign militaries that are confused. Our own military is confused, talking to some of these generals who have no idea why this is happening. And I'm not sure why there's such secrecy. But we should note this.

The military has different levels of classification. This one, we are told, is being deemed a secret level, which is not the highest level, because there had been some speculation considering our force posture outside Venezuela and the attacks on boats there. Could this be some sort of operational planning meeting? That seems unlikely because it would be classified at a higher level, Richard Haas. So there's some speculation in Washington, people I talked to yesterday who were downright puzzled at this, that this could be just sort of almost like a pep talk.

We know that Defense Secretary Hegseth is one of the things President Trump likes about him most is he's very good on Fox News and the like, the language about warfighters, a lot of its PR campaign. And there's a suggestion here, taken in tandem with the edict from the Pentagon last week about reporters there, only reporting on things that Pentagon tells them to, that this might be just a messaging meeting, but a very, very strange one. I think that's the most likely answer. If it were operational, you wouldn't have people globally. It would be more localized. My own sense, it's almost a cultural thing. Heg-Seth wants to change the culture of the military against DEI in favor of, quote-unquote, war fighting, and so forth.

He also wants to assert his authority because there's been a lot of pushback. So my sense is it's more like that. But it doesn't change any of the ideas that this is expensive. It's potentially risky because people aren't at their jobs. It's just a stunt. and it looks truly, truly excessive.

There's easy ways to do this. We have fought wars in recent years, by the way, without people leaving their bases. That's why we have these secure video systems. When I was at the White House, we went through the entire Gulf War. Most of it was run that way. You don't need to do something like this.

So this sounds to me something much more personal. Yeah, even some Republicans rolling their eyes at this yesterday, saying that Higgs-eth, again, he and his senior leadership team, very depleted, perhaps out of their depth. Richard, let's turn you to the week that was in foreign policy. obviously the United Nations General Assembly wrapped up. We had President Erdogan of Turkey yesterday with President Trump in the White House. In particular, you know, give us your thoughts on the Ukraine situation. Certainly a rhetorical turn from President Trump, but we've been

cautioning all week. Let's see it be backed up with action. And there's some sense among the diplomats I've talked to that actually, though they're happy that Trump's talking a better game about Ukraine, they actually think this might be him laying the groundwork to walking away from the conflict. Yeah, these sound to me more like musings. The president's suddenly talking about how Russia looks weak economically, how militarily it's having trouble, the idea that Ukraine can take back its land. Well, unless the President of the United States imposes serious sanctions on Russia, unless the President of the United States commits for a long-term military and intelligence support program to Ukraine, I don't see where it changes the battlefield. So I think right now

we're looking at a situation where diplomacy is on the back burner. This fighting sees, will wind down pretty quickly. I think we're looking at the war grinding on, Jonathan. So I don't know anybody, even though there was a little bit of pleasant surprise that the president's gone from pressuring Ukraine to give back territory, which is where he was at Alaska a month ago. Now he's talking about Ukraine regaining territory. But again, these are more musings, which is an odd thing for the president of the United States to be doing since he has the power to actually give Ukraine capacity. He is the power to impose terrorist. In the last 24 hours, as you know, he's imposed tariffs on all sorts of, you know,

on people importing kitchen cabinets, on pharmaceuticals. Well, it seems to me, Russia, which has escaped tariffs right now, that would be a pretty obvious target of tariffs for a president. This is his favorite tool. He thinks they're beautiful. Why not impose them on Russia? Yeah, you know, John Heilman, it's just been quite a dizzying week for political reporters in Washington, D.C., following the presidents back and forth, and after being used to it for about a decade, but you look a week later, again, the ominous threat to Jimmy Kimmel, what the FCC did, and then, of course, Jimmy Kimmel emerging on the other side, again, this comedic martyr who was more viral, more talked about than ever. His best press agent could have never gotten

this type of publicity. And then you see what's happened with James Comey. You're seeing what's happening at the international stage. You have the president going to the United Nations. Now, now we have conspiracy theories about escalators and about teleprompters. And you have people at the White House making statements ignoring the fact that the United Nations has already said it was a president's own videographer who ran up and tripped the stop switch on the escalator, and it was the president's own people running the teleprompter.

And yet, there's a grand conspiracy about the United Nations. You even have a host on primetime Fox News saying, the United Nations must be bombed. So take that week that was all into account and tell me, where are we? What's going on? Huh. That's a big question, Joe. I think the one thing you left out, I mean, this tells you how much has happened in this last week, is that you did not mention, and it's perfectly reasonable because there is so much going on, left out entirely what must stand as one of the most ludicrous and dangerous press conferences ever given by a president of the United States on the topic of public health when Donald Trump stood up with Robert F. Kennedy Jr., the night before the U.N. speech, and said, told pregnant women around the country that they should not take Tylenol. He said it about a hundred times. Don't take Tylenol, don't take Tylenol, despite the scientific consensus on this matter,

a president who couldn't manage to pronounce the word of Cidaminophen, and who made the claim, at least floated as a possibility, that Cuba has no autism because it can't afford Tylenol, neither of which is true. they have Tylenol or an off, a generic version of it, and they also have autism there. So that gets, you know, on its own, in the past, that would have been a week's worth of headlines. Look, I think where we are is what we were talking about earlier in the show, is the increasingly autocratic, increasingly entirely presidentially driven policy agenda that Donald Trump is putting forward, I think, on the questions of the Kimmel story is of a peace with the Comey story,

the weaponization of the Department of Justice, the politicization of that, and all of the things you saw in the wake of Charlie Kirk's tragic, undeniably tragic murder when you saw J.D. Vance and others, these things have not gone away saying that the administration is going to war with what they call the radical left and plans to weaponize government in all kinds of ways against what J.D. Vance has talked about against left-wing, what they call left-wing NGOs that they're now starting to talk about as if they were sponsors of domestic terror. It is a, where are we? We're at a dark place, Joe. And I'm, you know, I take some comfort in the fact that Jimmy Kimmel got back on the air and gave us that momentary reprieve. But I don't think

that their campaign against broadcasters and free speech is over, not by a long shot. And it feels this a very, very sobering week at the end of a string of very, very sobering weeks since this administration got underway back in January, eight months ago. And by the way, President Trump, again yesterday, continued to insist political violence is coming only from the left. And if they want this fight, the right is tougher. He's making that whole case, doing nothing to tamp that down. General Hurling, I want to take you back to foreign policy.

and the statements by the president at the U.N. this week, sitting alongside President Zelensky, marking kind of a new posture, at least rhetorically, about how he feels that Ukraine can win the war. Ukraine should hold on to all the land it has, but as Richard points out, he's got a lot of cards to play. He doesn't seem to be playing. He said, with Europe's backing, with the help of the EU, Ukraine can win this war, almost distancing himself and the United States from that effort. Yeah, it was a complete turnaround, Willie. You're absolutely right. And it was, from my perspective, the best thing that happened this week. And it was also surprising. You know, when you heard the president on Wednesday, after his somewhat unique UN address, talk about supporting Ukraine and that they do have the cards and they have the potential. What was interesting to me is that came after a bilateral discussion between the president and President Zelensky, as well as Mr. McCr, being in the room. So the next day, too, President Zelensky stood up in front of the UN and said what his potential capabilities were in terms of taking back land. So there was a lot of action

going on. And then you go to Thursday when the Ukrainians actually conducted attacks on several Russian ports that were very distinctly different from what they've done in the past. I'm, as you know, I'm very high on the Ukrainians. I don't think there's going to be more of a stalemate. there's going to be action. Russia has not taken any more ground, even though they continue to bomb civilians and commit war crimes, that Russia is in bad shape. But it gets to the point that you made, what is the president going to do about it? There was a $500 million tranche of new equipment approved by the Defense Department. That's not enough. They also need to have intelligence capabilities, helping them target their enemies, do more things with a lot more

equipment and with more support. But I think that's coming. I think people have seen the potential for Ukraine actually executing more operations during the late fall and into the winter. There may be a stoppage and there may be more stalemates on the battlefield, but I think Ukraine is in a very good position. Russia is in a very bad position, both militarily and economically. retired U.S. Army Lieutenant General, Mark Hurtling, we always appreciate your expertise and Insight General. Thanks so much. Richard Haas, before we let you go on a pretty heavy morning, let's start with some good old-fashioned American athletic patriotism. The Ryder Cup starts 15 minutes from right now. Bryson DeCambeau, Justin Thomas, teeing off. Scotty goes off about 15 minutes later

out of Bethpage Black, that famous public course on Long Island, which I know you've mastered over the years. What are you looking forward to this weekend? Looking forward to three great days of golf Europeans have won eight of the last 11, Willie. So, you know, history favors them. They seem to do better at the team thing. But this is, you know, the United States is the home team. And you got people like Cam Young playing for the first time. As an amateur, he won the tournament at Beth Page Black. So, yeah, look, these things can go either way.

It's going to be an exciting weekend plus in football, Willie. Besides all sorts of great college games, we've got the Giants unveiling their new rookie quarterback. So it's exciting moments here in New York. How sad. How sad for you two Giants fans. Oh, my God. I tell you, we have Alabama has Georgia this weekend. Going to be very exciting.

Georgia is going to do the blackout. Everybody's going to go into the stadium. wearing black in athens that didn't work too well for them last time they tried it but what uh what a game that always is we hope uh we can stay within a couple of touchdowns uh but let but getting back to the rider cup willie beth page black um i've seen a few golf courses in my time beth page black is one of the most special golf courses i've ever played i i remember finishing up uh and and shooting a 71 and uh for nine for nine they need you today, then, Joe. No, no, I shot a 71, and then I went on the back nine. Badoom, boom.

Yeah, that is, that is a hardest course I've ever played. It's also just one of the most remarkable courses ever. And like you said, Willie, the fact that it's a public course on Long Island, it's just, it's remarkable. The layout of it, it's a challenging course. But man, this is going to be special weekend. Not even if you love golf. If you like golf, this is going to be a weekend, I think, as special as the Masters. Yeah, and fun format, different all three days, Richard. And also, there's a little, like Bryce and Deschambeau, Rory McElroy, don't like each other. They've been a lot of trash talk. Deschambo said, I'm looking forward, hopefully, to going head-to-head with Rory McElroy. They take this really seriously. This is not an exhibition event.

This is a massive moment in golf. And just so fun to have this. small group of the very best players in the world playing for their countries, playing for Europe on the other side. It's going to be great. No, it's great. Golf is one of the most individualistic sports, and these are the three days every two years where suddenly these athletes who are just unbelievably good. It just totally changes the chemistry. It is riveting sports. It's right up there, Joe, and I know you're ready for this, for the Yankees who are on a streak here, ending the regular season and hopefully getting home field advantage. And I know you're looking forward to that show.

You know, you know, he's your Lemire, Willie. Like, you have to do, Chm. Come on. False modesty. Watch this, Richard. Watch this. This is what you do. I've told you all along, Richard, the Yankees is going to win in five.

You're going to win the World Series in five. If you don't, it's going to be a catastrophic year for you guys. That's how you do it. Don't gloat. But Willie, you know, Deschambe, something about him. You and I have talked about how our sons, our younger sons, have really started picking up golf and are very excited about golf after paying no attention to it. Like, you know, it's really getting even bigger with younger people. But Deschambo, man, he's a hero to the kids.

You know, they all stand over the tea and they say, watch this Bryson drive. I mean, you hear it time and time again. Yeah, and he's been so smart with his use of social media. He has a YouTube show that's wildly popular where he goes out and plays with someone well-known. I'll go play with Tom Brady, 18 holes. They talk in the cart. It feels like you and I driving around a cart, minus the excellent golf. But he's really, minus the 360-yard drives from DeCambo.

But he has been very smart about social media and TikTok. putting, you know, chipping over his house to try to get a hole in one. People follow that. So he's really become a star, not just for his play. He's an incredible player, but also for endearing himself to millions of people online. Joe, one other piece of big golf news, Joe. Here, next time you find yourself in New York, five iron golf has opened up right here at Rockefeller Center. It is a chance for you to fine-tune your iron game in the simulators here at Rockefeller Center.

Just letting you know that. I'll tell you what, the last time, Willie and I, for people watching, Willie and I just kind of picked up golf, like because of our kids. I played it 20, 30 years ago, but starting to play again, I can use, I can tell you, all the practice I can get, because when the driver's working, the irons are not. When my short game's working, you know, my long game's not.

So, yeah, five iron golf, I've done that once or twice, a lot of fun. You know what course I play there? Maya Comet. They have Maya Comet in Five Iron Golf. And you can play on one screen, Maya Comet. On the other screen, Pebble Beach. Come on. What an experience is that?

The only thing, Joe, I don't like about the Ryder Cup is they don't allow breakfast balls off the tea. Without those, you and I have no chance. So we need all the help we can get. Richard Haas, enjoy the golf this weekend. John Howman, thanks so much to you both. We appreciate it. We're going to sneak in a quick 90-second break when we come back, our top story, the indictment of former FBI director James Comey. Morning Joe's coming right back.