Morning Joe - Former Vice President Dick Cheney dies at 84

Episode Date: November 4, 2025

Former Vice President Dick Cheney dies at 84 Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

The whole world is watching you, and tomorrow is Election Day, as you know, and your Commonwealth, and the key races are still in play. They're very close, including Governor, Lieutenant Governor, Attorney General, and the legislature is all up and vote Republican. Okay. President Trump speaking during a tele-rally. You can feel the intensity of it all. Last night in Virginia. He also spoke to supporters in New Jersey, but that's the extent. of his campaigning for Republicans in both states ahead of election.

So he's on the phone. He's on the phone. Right. I still don't believe he spoke in the name of the Republican candidate for governor. In Virginia? In Virginia, years. Yeah. Yeah.

We'll go through the state of those key races, as well as the mayor contest in New York City. And the big redistricting vote in California. Plus, we'll show you the response from top Republicans to President Trump admitting to 60 minutes that he didn't know the crypto tycoon who he pardoned. Willie, I know this would shock you because it shocked me, you know, because usually these Republican guys, they're some of the most knowledgeable, and they go right to it.

Like they run right into the political fire, right? But about this Donald Trump interview, they're saying, oh, I didn't see that. And can you believe Mike Johnson's Speaker of the House? I'm not sure if he's ever said this before. I haven't seen that yet. Yeah. He's busy. He's busy. An act of holding people out of personal life. The guy in the Senate from Oklahoma, I think, with three names or so who tried to feed up.

Mark Wayne. Yeah. Mark Wayne Mullins. Jerry Jeff Walker. He said, I didn't see it. Jerry Jeff. Wow. Can we get talking about Jerry Jeff? I love him so much. It might be me. Outside of Johnny Cash, Jerry Jeff Walker may be your favorite. Jerry Jeff, for sure. He's great. pick up chocolate. He likes a good criminal. Pack up all your dishes. No.

He's just a great songwriter and a great performer. I'll be L.A. Freeway? Oh, one of my favorites. But yes, your point about 60 Minutes is a classic in an old genre with Trump, which used to be I didn't see the tweet. Right.

When he was the congressmen and women and senators would be confronted in the halls of the Capitol. How do you react to what Donald Trump said? I didn't see the tweet and then storm away. Also interesting to see all the people who called for the lawsuit against 60 minutes It's because of routine editing of the Kamala Harris interview

have been quieter this time around about the editing of Donald Trump's interview. The full transcript for everyone to see is available online. Could you imagine? Let's play this game because it's one of the fun games. Can you imagine John Lemire? If Kamala Harris had answered a question and said, oh, you don't have to play that.

Don't put that in. Let me say this again. Donald Trump, who sued CBS in 60, It's for $16 million, or $80 billion, whatever, for editing, which, of course, everybody's done forever. Donald Trump's actually guiding CBS and saying to Nora, oh, you don't have to put that one in. Don't put that in. I might be embarrassing. Don't put that in.

Don't put that. And this is the same guy. This is the same guy. And he was talking about in the interview. who's like suing CBS for doing what CBS and everybody else has always done, editing content for time. But this time at the direction of the person who's actually the subject of the interview. Yeah, that's standard journalism practice editing for time and clarity. You know, this is obviously, Donald Trump says, you know, likes to talk.

When he's talking to people, he likes to try to dance between on and off the record sometimes. He's trying to do that here. There are cameras running. And, of course, it comes, as you say, just months after, you know, that he put together this lawsuit against CBS. And let's also not spend another beat on this idea that he claimed not to know the Binance founder who he pardoned, who, of course, has done great business, billions of dollars of business with his family.

Again, we said this yesterday. Imagine if President Joe Biden in an interview said, oh, I didn't know the guy that I pardoned, I mean, the auto pen talk would be deafening. You're talking about standard journalism practice to edit. You know, you get a 30-minute interview, you edit down to 10, 15 minutes or any story. You know what else is the standard, like, journalism operating, procedure routine? Is if somebody tells you not to put something in, I've actually had people say before, but don't put that in. And I've actually had to say, you know, I probably wasn't going to put it in because it really didn't go with really the context of the story.

But now that you've told me not to put it in, I have to. put it in by lead with it now yeah i'm serious when somebody if somebody tells a journalist don't put that in or you don't have to put that in most journalists i know go well got to put that in now here don't don't trump's telling people don't put this out and it's not like it's on a small topic anybody who's watching this you just go google there's no denying it right he was against crypto yeah then his family invest tons of money in crypto he switches his position He ultimately pardons a person who, to his benefit to that company, help him make billions of dollars. Yeah.

It was family make billions of dollars. Sorry. I don't want to. I thought there was a mouse. Oh, no. Sorry. I don't want to be. Okay.

We got to get out of this. I have never seen more. I have been thinking about the scripts. Seriously. I don't want to make me snickety about the scripts, but I really think we should change the language here when we say, Donald Trump. One more week, we're out of here. If you're seeing mice, would you like to go check? I don't think.

I mean, come on. This place is just not seriously. It's either a mouse or an asset. It's time to leave. But go ahead. I was just going to say, I think we should change the language of the scripts from Donald Trump admitted that he didn't know this person, too. Donald Trump claimed that he didn't know this person. You know, it's like, he's not, you know, does anybody around the table really think that he doesn't?

No, nobody thinks that. Nobody in Congress thinks that. Your family makes $2 billion or there's a $2 billion investment in crypto and you're like, oh, I don't know them. And then they get pardoned. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay, also with us and B.C. Show me where you, show me what you're going across all the way from there to Maddie.

That was born a call. It was born a girl. It was barnacle was throwing something to Maddie. See, there's that, that. What is it? Looks like drugs. Okay. Well, thank you. By the way, Hyleman wouldn't have left any behind.

It would be on his person right now. All right. I'm sorry. A big day today. I don't need to like not go to the script. But it's a election day to day. Keep the comedy out. Subtle. Very subtle. Yeah, he is, of course, not a communist. But again, some of the stupidest people on the planet have continued to call people communists when they're even like center-left Democrats. But in this case, I will say there are a lot of people freaked out in New York City. A lot of friends, neighbors, whatever, freaked out about mom, Donnie.

getting in there, and they see the man riding over the cliff on a white stallion being Andrew Cuomo. Boom. There you go. Andrew Quo, first of all, it's around Monubon. We'll be our guest on this show in a couple of hours. We'll talk to him on this election day, but the big news overnight is that Andrew Cuomo received a perhaps unexpected endorsement from Donald J. Trump on the eve of the election. effectively making the Mamdani case for him, which is that Donald Trump and Andrew Cuomo are of a piece. The same kind of guys from New York, the establishment, and Donald Trump will be calling the shots. You're New York tabloid guy.

What does this mean to New York voters? Do they like Donald Trump and candidates he and voices? Are you not like. Jonathan, no, your infinite wisdom and knowledge of New York, can you give us a sense of how New York feels about, I'm relatively new at this. No, I don't think that's going to go over well with most New York City voters.

And also, he didn't just get the endorsement of Donald J. Trump yesterday. Andrew Cuomo got the endorsement of Elon Musk yesterday as well. Oh, my gosh. Oh, my gosh. Oh, he's talking up for him. It's a perfect closing argument. By the year fourth, and you're like, Steve Bannon, the four horsemen of the New York City payroll. Stephen Miller was the joke earlier.

But, yeah, the idea that this is that the Montana campaign couldn't have scripted this better. There is a sense in the last, you know, Mount Dinai's, but consistently well ahead in the polls. Right. There's some sense in the last week or two, the race has tightened. somewhat, but we should note the record early voting over the weekend. New York Times, other places reported, skewed very, very young. I did really? Which would certainly bode, think, bould well for a month.

Sliwa. Slewa mentum, I think, is the phrase. Slema'emum. Slema'an. Did you see President Trump did make a parenthetical statement in his bigger statement, endorsing quillow, he said, as Curtis Slewa does look better without the beret. He wanted to make sure he made that point. He also went to ask, in the New York Times story this morning, Jim Banda,

they're asked, you know, aren't there's kind of some comparisons between you and Mom Donnie? I mean, you all are both, like, energetic, and you've got this. And he sort of admitted, yeah, there are, but I am better looking, aren't I? He's got a good sense of humor. He's got to take that really quickly, though. We've got to go to California because we haven't talked about California enough because we've been focused on Virginia, New Jersey, New York.

Is Gavin C. Newsom, G.C.N. Is he going to get what he wants out there in redistricting today? If the polls are to be believed, it's not even going to be close. I'm close. Okay. And I will say, you know, when he put this redistricting initiative on the ballot, it was no sure thing that he was going to win. And it was seen as a big political gamble. If he put all of this political capital behind it and lost, it was seen not as an death blow to his presidential ambitions, but as a significant problem. And he's, they have, you know, this is a state that's, that's twice in the last 10 years ratified independent redistricting commissions. And so, you know, there was a big fight. A lot of money got spent on both sides. And it looks like he's going to win. The yes on 50 is going to win pretty

easily. And I would say it will make this, if you took about, look at all the Democrats in 2025. Yeah. If that win, if that that proposition passes, I think it's fair to say Gavin Newsom's had the best first year of Trump 2.0 of any Democrat in the country. No doubt about it. Hey, John, do I have them put up breaking news, or is it a... We could. Yeah, I mean, we could. Do you want to take it through standards first? Well, let's do that.

But I think it's a reliable source. We should check on something. What's the top? I mean, it's from a spokesperson for... I mean, I just sent it to the control room. I think we should double check. Let him do due diligence. Hey, can I see?

Yeah. It's not a... By the way, Jackie Alamedy is with us, co-host of the weekend. This is how you do journalism in real time. Read it out loud. Yeah, no, no. We should check. Not on this.

Let me ask really quickly, who's the expert here in New Jersey politics? You're from Jersey. Oh, really? It's been a minute since I lived there. Who is going to say. Mikey Cheryl, a lot of people have said she's run Democrats, Democratic operatives have said he's run a bad campaign. Yet this race seems tight. She seems to be ahead in the polls right now.

What are you hearing? far too close for comfort for Democrats. It's been a long time. Basically, there's a single ad that's been running over and over and over again. Is it a trans ad? In New Jersey, it's not a trans ad. It's an interview she gave where she couldn't come up with an answer to a pretty basic question. And people, as we talk about all the time, don't follow this stuff minute by minute as closely, and they're watching a football game. They go, huh, what's up with that? So there's this one powerful ad, Chittorelli, Jack Chitorelli, the Republican, has run a pretty good campaign. She's ahead by most polls right now, but again, no one in the Democratic Party feels comfortable this morning.

Is this the ad where I'm watching NFL games with my son and you got the four boxes on YouTube and it comes up and there's no sound, but she's just kind of like her eyes are up in the air and she's kind of looking. Because even without the sound, it looks pretty devastating. Yeah, she's asked in an interview with a local TV station, just to name if she had one piece of legislation, what would it be and couldn't come up with the answer? But it was effectively tied for a while. She's given a little distance in the ball now, but, again, no one in the Democratic. Early voting is going better than it did last time. So they're feeling pretty good about that. Finally, Virginia, looks like Spanburgers in the clear there, right?

It does. And I think Democrats just have a better operation there. She's a pretty weak opponent. I think in general, Democrats have spent a lot more money. They've put a lot more effort into these races. I think it means a lot more to them. I don't usually read a lot out of these off-year elections in terms of what they pretend for other things. But, like, Democrats are in such a funk.

They'll take anything at this point. And I do think it will at least give them some win going into next year. Well, this is a really, this is a fascinating week. The New York Times has a story about it. There's a confluence of three events that are happening this week that actually may put Donald Trump on his heels for the first time politically. since a year ago tomorrow, which is when he beat Kamala Harris. The election was a year ago tomorrow. But you have tomorrow on the one anniversary of his victory,

probably the most important hearing between the Supreme Court in the long time. Terriff's case. And you even have the Wall Street Journal saying today, it was basically there are no Kings editorial, which said, don't make this guy our future president, Kings over tariff powers. That's number one. Then you have the elections today, which if Democrats do happen to win in Virginia, New Jersey, California, it's pretty big for the Democratic Party. And then finally, we're hearing Republicans are starting to talk about resolving the

government shutdown, which everybody seems to think is breaking the Democrats way. Those are three separate things that could actually put some constraints on the president's claim of this massive unitary power. Yeah. And then the latter, that last category, you know, I think a lot of people from the beginning of the shutdown thought on the basis of history, recent history, and more distant history, that you would start to see Democrats crack before Republicans did, especially since there were a couple of Democratic senators who voted to keep the government open back 36 days

ago or whatever it was. We started this. The signs, you're starting to see those cracks in the Republican, on the Republican side that we expected to see on the Democrats. side a month ago. And, you know, we're now, it's the longest, as of today. Longest, I believe today or tomorrow, the longest shutdown, federal government shutdown in the history. I think, you know, that the smoke signals are going up for Trump to get involved and give congressional Republicans a figly, a way to get out of this.

Good way to get out. Jackie Alamani, Diamond Jim, as his friends and colleagues call him. Jim Vanda hi and I went through some government shutdowns together. Me is a crazy Republican congressman, him is just the facts man, Dave McIntosh-loving journalist on the on the Hill. But I think we've got to still, is that in about five years. Dave McIntosh, we will. You're going to poll people knowing what you're talking about. Nobody knows.

At this point, 30 years later, just you and me. But Jackie, I'm sorry to digress. But you never know how these things are going to turn out, but the one thing that I usually find is they always turn out against Republicans. It's what I warned at the beginning of this shutdown is Republicans don't like government. They don't like big government. Republicans control Washington, D.C. I'm not really sure how this could have been it any other way, but Americans blaming Republicans.

Yeah, I'm sorry. I thought we were going to talk about Virginia, which I also thought was going to be against a mark against Republicans. But yes, with the shutdown, Republicans are... But before we give the government shutdown, can we talk about Virginia? Because I think that, too, will be a mark against Republicans. Well, there's... I mean, I feel... It's like popcorn.

We're a little bit of a broken record at this point. I mean, there is very little movement when it comes to the government shutdown. You have John Thune, who's basically been a little bit of a broken record. He's now feeling optimistic for the potentially 14th time that there's going to be a failed vote today. And yes, the polling, as you noted, is... still in favor of Democrats when it comes to this issue, and Democrats are still holding firm, and they believe that's the case. There is a coalition, though, of centrist members of Congress, Republicans and Democrats, Don Bacon, Tom Swazi, who have come together to propose a two-year extension

of ACA credits that is actually picking up some steam. I think it's the first viable plan that has been floated. It's actually being received relatively well by Republicans and Democrats. in that it hasn't. No one has come out against it just yet. Of course, things do need to start over in the Senate. And so whether or not that actually gets socialized and moved over to Senate lawmakers who also want to get something done is still a really big question mark right now. And on the Senate side, I mean, Ali Vitale laid it out really well this morning, which is there is the sheer fact to that, even if lawmakers do pass this continuing resolution today, which is highly unlikely, it extends the government until November 21st, which is right around the corner. So Thune has

now said, actually, that's no longer going to work. We're not going to be able to get things going in time to meet that date. So you see lawmakers really starting from scratch here. Yeah. We'll be talking about that obviously a lot more. There's so much to cover this morning. But before we go to break, we want to remember a friend of the show, Terry Beard. Terry is actually a friend of Jim, your mother-in-law. Yeah. And we know we talk so often about our viewers being members of the family. And it's something that Meek and I have seen through the years.

Willie's seen it. Everybody, part of the show, has seen it where we go out. And we are a part of people's lives. And we didn't really understand that quite so much until we started hearing back from people who had important points of their life would sit together with their friends and loved ones, their spouses, and watch the show. And Terry was one of those people. Yeah, I got this text yesterday from my mother-in-law. And while she was right before she had passed away, she kept saying, like, but I'm going to miss Joe. I'm going to miss Joe.

And the kids were like, how many Joe's in the family? My name's not, Joe. No, no, Joe and Mika. Oh, my gosh. I texted the two of you, and you guys are good people. You put it up there. Well, that's so sweet. And Willie, I know you hear this as well from people.

I know we were thinking about maybe a decade ago going to CBS in a book tour before all those negotiations that we weren't supposed to be in were going on. And we had so many people saying, you're a part of our day. We sit, we get our coffee, and we hold hands, and we watch together and go through. At that time, they said the entire three hours. Now, of course, this is a 47-hour a day coming. And they go, enough already. My Lord. Just leave us alone.

Yeah. But there's this beautiful connection. No, and there's a special intimacy to morning television, which is something I've learned over the years. From this show and my Sunday show, which is people wake up, it's a really important time. They're in their pajamas a lot of times, and they're sitting with coffee or family or whatever it is. They, you know, you have people come and say, I wake up in bed with you every morning. I said, what do you mean by that?

You know what I mean? I'm in bed watching TV. So we certainly will miss Terry. And, you know, there is something very special about this thing we do. And the connection we get to feel sometimes when we go out and talk to people. Absolutely. All right. Still ahead.

Yeah. And so we're thinking about Terry. Yeah. And your family. appears with them and we thank you for that understanding how intimate and special this time is in the morning with you we also before we go to break from the bottom of our hearts I want to apologize for having John Heilman and the 6 a.m. Yeah. We know it's very joy. We have to do it from time to time. Once in a while. All right. Still ahead on morning Joe, the frontrunner in New York City's mayoral race,

Zoran Mamdani. We'll be our guest and a reminder to sign up for our relaunched newsletter the tea spilled by morning joe get our hot takes on the day's news politics sports music entertainment and so much more plus a direct line to the morning joe family straight into your inbox scan the keyword code on your screen or go to msnbc.com slash the tea spilled by morning joe we'll be right back The family of former Vice President Dick Cheney released the following statement. Richard B. Cheney, the 46th Vice President of the United States, died last night, November 3rd, 2025. He was 84 years old. His beloved wife of 61 years, Lynn, his daughters, Liz and Mary, and other family members were with him as he passed.

The former vice president died due to complication. of pneumonia and cardiac and vascular disease. For decades, Dick Cheney served our nation, including as White House Chief of Staff, Wyoming's congressman, secretary of defense, and vice president of the United States. Dick Cheney was a great and good man who taught his children and grandchildren to love our country and to live lives of courage, honor, love, kindness, and fly fishing. We are grateful beyond measure for all Dick Cheney did for our country, and we are blessed beyond measure to have loved and been loved by this noble giant of a man. Dick Cheney has passed away. He, you know,

he lived this life, really in three acts, this public life. The first was, and we were talking about this of camera, Willie, he, the first, the first act was as actually sort of seen as a moderate, highly respected voice in Congress as a minority whip. There's a point in David Stockman's book where they were talking about the Reagan revolution and the cuts they were making and they kept pushing forward. And then at one point he said, Dick Cheney just quietly said in the room, that's enough. Can't go any further. And David Stockman said with a man disrespected, a voice, you know, this large in Congress,

we knew we had pushed the outer boundaries. Then, of course, post 9-11, he was seen as Darth Vader, called Darth Vader by many people, because he actually, he supported what I think a lot of Americans supported, but it was called the 1% solution. And he was determined, Dick Cheney was determined. From that moment on, after 9-11, there would never be another 9-11 again.

again. And he was going to do whatever he could to stop it. And we'll talk to Jim Vandehi about this a minute, but he also is seeing reports day in and day out that would have scared the absolute hell out of any American that had access to all the threats were here. And then finally the third act, of course, one of these Republicans, you know, that were seen as a defender of democracy. When so many others lost their way, Dick Cheney kept his barren after January to 6th always kept his bearings when it came to democratic norms. And he was on the right side. I think most certainly Republicans from my era would believe.

And I think we all should be grateful to him for that. One of his last public acts was about a year ago when he put out a statement saying, I'm going to be voting for Kamala Harris in this presidential election. Dick Cheney, Darth Vader, as you said, the faith. of the Republican Party in many ways in the Bush years said Donald Trump can never be trusted with power again, appearing with his daughter, Liz Cheney, of course, who was one of the most outspoken voices against the Trump administration. He actually, if you go back even further, was the chief of staff to Gerald Ford, then ran for Congress where he served for 10 years,

Secretary of Defense under George H.W. Bush during the Gulf War, then became the CEO of Halliburton, and then, of course, the years that many people remember post-9-11 Jim. He was a supporter of the invasion of Iraq, which turned out to be on faulty intelligence, also supported the enhanced interrogation techniques, torture of enemy combatants and all of that. So that is most certainly a big part of his legacy, but there was a lot more to the man. I mean, we've all been doing this a long time. I've been doing it 30 years. He's by far and away the smartest thinker.

about the mechanics of government that I've ever met and it's not close. I was lucky that I interviewed him several times. I went with him to Auschwitz when he went when he went there. And then after the presidency, we would go out and see him occasionally at his house because he just, he knew everything. He knew every lever of government because you just walked through his resume. He understood how Congress worked. He understood how the bureaucracy worked.

He understood, he had all these relationships, even post-presidency with all these world leaders. He just understood power. And there's times where people hated him. A lot of people loved him. But he was also like he was his own man, right? Like he was, when he came out post-9-11, people don't realize the reports that he and President Bush were getting in those days after 9-11. And it really turned him dark. It made him feel like we can never let this happen again.

He was willing to do things other people weren't willing to do. He got a hell of a lot of criticism for that. And what he would say is like that was like a very principled view based on the threat matrix that he was seeing. And then right before his death, the idea that Dick Cheney would be leading the Republican charge against the president, an elected president, and the leading nominee would have been unthinkable. He was a party guy, but he was a principal guy, and he understood the Constitution. He understood history, and he understood, in his mind, he felt like there was a legitimate threat to it. Yeah, and, you know, he would say, Jonathan Amir, about the post-9-11.

the record. He would say, how many attacks did we get after 9-11? That was my goal, he would say. And you can look and see the number of Americans, I think more than half of America believed more attacks were coming. And they would come in successive waves against us. There was such shock. So again, he would say, look at the record. Look what happened. We didn't. We didn't get attacked again. There was, of course, the Iraq War, which came, which I actually believe will probably be when the obituaries are written. There will be talk of, again, all three chapters of his life, the first, and the third. It's a protective democracy. But in that second, I think as much as the war on terror, which many people would consider to be a success,

the blind spot was going into Iraq. Yeah, and those two things sort of became linked in the public narrative. The war on terror, of course, and the Iraq, it's because the administration did that. So it is hard to prove in some ways, look, we've stopped these terror attacks because so much of it was classified, you can't reveal it. It's hard to come out with that success story. It's much easier to see the visible failure.

And the justification of the Iraq war and what it led to was certainly a failure for Vice President Cheney. We should just note for the viewers, that was the text I had received in case you were wondering if there was something else coming. We would just want to confirm this. No, because I've heard from people like, what's going on? So I was like, this is what it is.

Right. I'd run it through normal channels before we went with it on air. But we should also note, to your point at a moment ago, it's because he was seen as the power behind the throne, the architect of the Bush administration, Darth Vader. So, and I would argue, the most disliked politician by Democrats we have had in decades until Donald Trump, that's why his endorsement to come out against Donald Trump, not just say I'm going to sit this race out, like I'm not going to vote for Trump, but to come out the other way and back a Democrat and Vice President Harris, it was to a lot of people very

meaningful. But what is the through line on all of those things? Dick Cheney did what he thought was best for America. Politics be down. Whether he did it as a highly respected member of the House, minority leadership, whether he did it as Secretary of Defense, also something that will be seen as a very positive chapter in his life that a lot of people forget during the first Iraq War. Gulf War, yeah. First Gulf War. Whether he'll be remembered as vice president for the ups and downs of that or whether he'll

be remembered by many of the people who loathed him before. as a defender of democracy. And this happens. You know, Mika's father was loathed by progressives in the Democratic Party. Edelow said he was booed at the Democratic National Convention because he took such a hard line against the Soviet Union. And then, after the Iraq war, suddenly every liberal loved him. You know, the two things, I will say the two things,

I don't think your dad would mind me saying this, the two things these two men shared in common is they really didn't give a what the New York Times or Wall Street Journal editorial page said about them, they were going to do what they thought their duty was to America. And we live near each other in McLean, Virginia. And also two guys with enormously big brains. I actually go back to what Jim said a second ago, which is if you really think about the arc of the career,

here, this to me is the core of it. When he goes to, his first job in politics is working for Donne Rumsfeld in 1969. He's 28 years old. That's a tough job for any time. He goes into the White House as an intern at 28. And six years later, having never left the White House, he's Gerald Ford's Chief of Staff. White House Chief of Staff, arguably like the most powerful job in America besides President. At the age of 34, okay?

That is a prodigy in terms of the understanding of how power works. Before he even went to Congress, he already had operated at the very highest levels of federal power. And that student, the kind of apprenticeship, the fact that he was saying, a student of power and the dynamics of power and how Washington works on both sides from the Capitol Capitol Hill to the White House and then over to the in the agencies, just gave him a 360 view of how modern Washington worked and how politics, how power flowed in that city and how to work the levers behind the scenes. That's, I think, as much as anything, the definitive thing. Like a brilliant guy who really understood power in Washington like

almost no one else ever has. Just having a sense of a moment like this, what it's like, my thoughts are with Liz, Mary, and Lynn right now and what they must be going through. If you're just joining us, we're covering the passing of former Vice President Dick Cheney. Presidential historian John Meacham joins us now. Meacham, your thoughts on this moment. Well, a remarkable American figure. We really don't make them like this anymore. Someone who, as John says, was a political scientist and came.

to work on the Hill briefly and then goes into the executive branch, youngest White House chief of staff ever. And one of the things about, I think, Vice President Cheney that people will be wrestling with, and I think he would love the fact that he's making us wrestle with something. That was part of that. You get a little half grin would be the complexities of this legacy. he was an American patriot and one could you know you can already see can't you the counterintuitive

the obituaries that are going to be harsh about him because of disagreements over the Iraq war but he I think as Joe just said a minute ago he called them as he saw them in the service of the nation he could be wrong but he He wasn't calling him for any other agenda. And I think that there's a kind of theme of patriotism that runs through his life. He clearly gave it, particularly to his daughter in the arena. I remember being on the hill in just two quick stories, being on the hill on the first anniversary of January 6th. And I think I am right to say the only two Republicans who went to the floor of the

house, yeah, that's probably it right there, who went to the floor of the house, were Dick Cheney, former member and Liz Cheney for the commemoration of January 6th. And so I remember actually thinking at the time, this is the kind of thing that changes your obituary because of all the people who were against him through the first decade or so of 21st century, you know, in the end, he did something that very few others in his, if any, in his party would do. The other thing, which I have always been deeply impressed by, just on a human level, when I was writing about President George H.W. Bush, he was pretty tough.

This was 2010, 2011. He was pretty tough on Vice President Cheney as Dick Cheney. He said that he thought he was overly harsh. He liked to use the phrase hard ass. He was too hard ass. And I took these comments to Vice President Cheney. And we were sitting in his study there in McLean. and I handed him a transcript of these remarks.

Now here, all of us know this world well enough, here is your former chieftain, the President of the United States, father of the man you served as vice president, saying some pretty tough things about you. Now, we could all pretend we like criticism, but we don't, right? He's reading the document, and the only thing he says is fascinating, fascinating. And then he handed it back to me and talked about how it was just a different vision of the vice presidency that President George W. Bush had wanted a stronger vice president. But I'll never forget, you know, a man reading that your former commander in chief thinks you're out of bounds and that you've misled his son, right? That you've led, it was tough stuff. And he just found it fascinating. Exercising a little restraint, perhaps, too.

I'm sure you had some thoughts. there, John. Also, in the book you wrote about George H.W. Bush, Destiny and Power, President Bush, 41, said Dick Cheney always had his own empire. He was already operating his own universe. That could be said of 41 and 43 when Dick Cheney was vice president. Everyone would remember Dick Cheney actually was the one in the White House during the attacks of 9-11. He was the one rushed to the bunker. President Bush was in Florida at a school, of course, and then flying to a couple of different air bases that day. Can you talk a little bit about the relationship between Dick Cheney and George W. Bush 43?

Because obviously a lot of people accuse Dick Cheney of being the one actually pulling the strings of the government. Yeah. When I hear that, I always want to say, go spend four minutes with George W. Bush and tell me he and George was being bossed around by anybody. Right? You know, it doesn't really hold up. Now, I think President Bush was 43 was happy enough to subcontract parts of the government that he wasn't, didn't want to directly supervise or wasn't thought he had other things to do as well. But George W. Bush did what George W. Bush wanted to do. And agree or disagree, I don't believe the man behind the, the man behind the, the throne theory. Our friend Peter Baker may disagree about that. But I think, you know, that choice in 2000 is so interesting about almost everybody involved, right? And we all remember this because we're all older. Now, Willie, I think even you might remember this. So in 2000, George W. Bush is doing everything he can to step away from the shadow his father, right? He

as W. used to say, I inherited all his enemies and half his friends. You know, there was a plus and a minus, right, to do it. He desperately wanted to be the Texan, the guy of the new, then-new Republican Party, the evangelicals. You know, the old man was more of a Rockefeller guy, never at home in Texas. And then he chooses the old man's secretary of defense, affirming, if you want, wanted a narrative that the old man wanted to have somebody around to keep an eye on him, you know, a chaperone, that President Bush 43, Governor Bush at the time, was willing to

take that risk because the guy he'd gotten to know in 2000, when he was running the vice presidential surge, was a sense, seemed to him to be a sensible straight shooting guy. And he was impressed by that. Tiny footnote to American history. You're going to be very sorry. You have to about all this. George, you know, that's actually the thing, John. We didn't ask you about it. All right. But continue. We want to hear this last point. Go. Last point. George W. Bush tried to get Dan Quail moved off the ticket in 1992 for Dick. Cheney. He wanted him as vice president. He wanted him as president in the reelect. So all that's, you know, interesting enough trivia. The vital, vital point here is that Dick Cheney was a patriot. You could agree with him. You could disagree with him. But he was a man who left a mark. And I would argue that in the end, it was a mark. And he bent the arc of the universe toward a fuller. understanding of American patriotism.

All right. John Meacham, presidential historian, thank you so much for being with us. I am glad he brought up that last point about Dan Quayle, because it just shows. If you've been around Washington long enough, there are no permanent friends. There are no permanent enemies. It's a thing I try to say to people early on, make friends. agree with them. That's okay. You're going to need them at some point. Here we have Dick Cheney and Dan Kwell, two people again at the left at certain points in their careers, as with Dr. Prasinski, loathed. By the way, they called Dr. Prisinski Darth Vader before they called

Dick Cheney, Darth Vader. But the left loathed both of these gentlemen and yet when push came to shove, and actually, I will say, democracy was on the line. It was Dan Quill that told Mike Pence, you have no choice. You will do what the Constitution tells you to do. You will make sure that Congress makes Joe Biden the next president of the United States. Then you had Dick Cheney, on the one-year anniversary of January 6th, one of the darkest days, regardless of the whitewashing of it by people in the right-wing bubble in the MAGA bubble, one of the darkest days in recent American history. Yes.

Dick Cheney and Liz Cheney being the only two Republicans that showed up on the House floor for the one-year commemoration of an event that the families of four police officers believe led to their deaths. And for all of those today who will certainly say, perhaps on the far left and far right, oh, that was nothing, let me ask, where was every other single Republican in Washington, D.C.? They were all scared to show their faces on that house floor that morning. Dick Cheney and his daughter, though, they were. there. And that shouldn't just be sort of brushed aside of like, oh, he just showed up. Because if it were that easy, then hundreds of other Republicans would have shone up that day. And like you said, they basically stood alone. And I think there's a couple of things people might not fully understand about power. Like to get to the place where you're a Cheney or even by the time Pence's vice president, you have to teach yourself to be unemotional in some ways. You have to teach yourself

to be somewhat indifferent to criticism. And you're also operating at the same time in a bubble, right? Like really smart people can make really dumb decisions based on imperfect information. And I think in retrospect, most people would say that's what happened with the Iraq war. I don't think they did it maliciously. I think that there was a set of facts sitting before them. They had to make a really difficult decision. In retrospect, it looked like a terrible decision.

But these jobs are very... Can I just say really quickly, you had the CIA director jumping up and down in the Oval Office saying about Iraq having weapons of mass destruction. It's a slam dunk. The CIA director, imagine if they had weapons of mass destruction and a president and vice president had ignored that. I don't say that to wash away anything.

I just say that to say, You not only had that, you had Iraqi leaders like Chalaby lying through their teeth repeatedly giving bad information to the U.S. government because they wanted us to invade so they could take power. That was the context of that. Well, that's also the danger when you put, we talk about this a lot on the show, about putting too much power in the hand of one man, right? You need, like one of the things about George W. Bush, whether you liked him or hated him, he had the self-confidence to put really smart people around him. And you could argue about some of the figures, but they were authentically smart, accomplished people. And he really did see himself as a CEO. He really did delegate a lot of that authority so that he had domain expertise so that ultimately he could make good decisions.

And essentially, that's what you wanted any business. I think it's ultimately what you want in government because one person's instincts could be terribly flawed. Even a group's instincts could be terribly flawed. But the more expertise you have around the table, the more people that you're recruiting into government who really understand. understand the topics and are being heard when it comes time for you needing that domain expertise, that's how you ultimately usually get the best possible decisions. And I think that's what George Bush did with Dick Cheney. He's like, yeah, this is going to look bad for me, but he's a really smart guy. And probably one of my weaknesses is I don't understand the world geopolitical map the way

that he does. I want him next to me. And that's history. All right. Coming up, we're going to have a lot more on the passing of former vice president, Dick Cheney, who died last night at at the age of 84. Also straight ahead, a look at this very consequential election day. We'll get the latest from New Jersey, Virginia, and New York City. We'll be right back. Fear. Everybody in the country is watching the elections that will happen tomorrow. You've got big elections in New Jersey and Virginia, the governor's races and Attorney General's races, etc. But all the attention is focused primarily on New York City. Why? Because the fear, the fear that Mamdani and all that he represents will be risen to power, that he'll be

elected the mayor of America's largest city, the once cradle of capitalism, that we're going to have a Marxist, a communist running the largest city. Leader Hakeem Jeffries is the Democrat in the House, and Leader Schumer in the Senate. They're both from New York, and they're terrified. You've watched their actions carefully. Many of you've not reported on it enough. poor Hakeem Jeffries had to ultimately, finally, he was forced to endorse Mondani. And he's terrified that he now owns the results of that. Whose characterization is that that Democrats are afraid of their vote? That is a ridiculous characterization.

When we consistently have been on the right side of the American people on all of the things, on the economy, on health care, on nutritional assistance, on the rule of law, on standing up for law abiding immigrant communities, on defending our history, on the American way of life, and of course, on democracy itself. And we're going to see that tomorrow, that we're on the right side of the American people. That's what this fight has been all about. That was House Minority Leader Hakeem Jeffries yesterday, hitting back after Speaker Mike Johnson accused Democrats of prolonging the shutdown

because party leaders are afraid of their far-left support. You know, I think actually people like Mike Johnson should be more afraid of their working-class constituents who are going to be struggling. Yeah. Because Mike Johnson is not doing enough to make sure that SNAP assistance continues. And because they're cutting, they're, they're, they're, they're, benefits for Medicaid, which I can tell you as a guy that lived in Northwest, Florida, Mississippi, Alabama, and Georgia, you cut Medicaid than the rural hospital crisis, which has been massive, just absolutely massive over the past decade, gets even worse.

That's what Mike Johnson should be worried about. He's not, and a lot of Republicans aren't, but that is why you see like MTG and who's the guy from Missouri with the Josh Holly, Senator Hall. Frail. Yeah. Josh Holly. This is really the guys. Joining us now managing editor of the New York Times, Carolyn Ryan, and MSNBC contributor, Mike Barnacle. People are going to be feeling the effects of these cuts. They are. It's going to be harsh. We're going to get to snap benefits and Medicaid in a second. But we've been waiting for Carolyn to come on the show for a long time. Yeah. And we're going to talk about the Boston Red Sox for us. What? So yesterday,

Wow. Mike Barnacle sends me what may be the best piece of sports journalism I've ever read on a deadline. I'm going to give you some quotes, and Mike, you give the backstory to this. Are you ready? Summertime has been called back for just one more day

for the seventh game of the World Series. He said, Fred Lenn, a hero of unmatched match. Majesty and called the game a long night's journey into morning, suspended in time just as Fisks' home run was suspended beyond the skyline. Summertime has been called back for just one day. Tills. Gammons writes that the home run sells over the green monster at 1234 a.m. in the morning. right the 11th inning and what does gamins do

gammons just put his head down wrote like a demon you could have shot a gun next to him and he wouldn't have interrupted what he was doing writes that piece on the front page of the boston globe three and a half hours later three and a half hours later on deadline writes that piece and it's a piece of literature it's not sports writing it's literature and it's not the first time

Peter did it, but he wrote that under immense pressure, obviously. I am like two chairs away from Peter in the press box, and I'm twiddling my thumbs trying to figure out how to write it. He grows the next day. And Peter, it's an epic piece. I'll send it to you. I want to see it. That's poetry.

And that's what newspapering used to be all about. I mean, it's one thing, if you're John Updike, extraordinary, talking. about the kids' last gang, which was just as beautiful as anything we've ever read, but on deadline. Yeah, deadline poetry. I mean, that's what we need more deadline poets. I mean, we look around the newsroom, who can do, who can dance on the keyboard? There are a few people who could still do it, but that, I got chills just hearing that. That's just. So we've asked you to come on this show now, I think 478 consecutive days. And you've said no, 477. And you've said no, 477 times, but the 478th time you said you would come on because you feel confident talking

about the New York mayor's race. It's a great race. What can you tell us about it? It's fascinating. I mean, the big question, I think, after that primary, which caught a lot of people by surprise, including Mamdani himself. He didn't expect to win. He thought it'd be close. Andrew Cuomo didn't expect to lose. Certainly not like that. So the big question was that primary turnout, would we see a much different turnout in the general? Would people who, you know, the demographics would be different, it wouldn't be as young? So far, we're seeing almost identical turnout.

So the young people are coming out, the people in places that really support Lumdani in Brooklyn and Queens, you know, Long Island City, Astoria, all these places that are deep Mundani places, there's a surge of those people. Big early vote. There's a surge of young people voting. As you know, like usually, if you think about voting, the first day is the oldest day of early voting,

and then it gets younger until Election Day. And Election Day tends to be the youngest. Not this time. You have this cohort of young people who are determined to vote. Wow. And to me, this reminds me a little bit. I know they're ideologically couldn't be more different, but it reminds me of Trump. Like people who felt unseen, unheard.

when Donnie was able to make them feel seen. And what he did, I mean, he's like Trump and that he's a great communicator. He mastered social media. He has one message that hammers, you know, again and again, just a few issues. And if you touch people like that, if they feel seen, you start igniting something that doesn't just feel like a campaign. It feels a little bit like a movement. And I feel like that's a little bit of what New York is experiencing right now.

Yeah. Wow. And for all the concerns for many people about Mumbai. He inexperienced his views on capitalism. He's a Democratic socialist. His views on Israel, some of the comments he's made deeply concerned to a lot of people. But as you say, he uses the word affordability in almost every sentence. And that seems to be for now.

We'll see what happens winning the day, which is, yeah, it's way too expensive to live in New York City. In fact, I don't know how I'm going to continue to live here. Interesting development overnight, President Trump endorsing Andrew Cuomo in one of those all caps, true social posts. Did Cuomo know that was coming? I'm sure he didn't need it on the eve of the election or won it. It was a bizarre. It was one of the more curious endorsements. I mean, after covering politics for a long time.

Other than Osama bin Laden endorsing John Kerry on the eve of 2004. It's like, these are the endorsements we do not need. I mean, look at the registration advantage that Democrat. I mean, you're talking about an eight to one Democratic city. Trump comes out at the 11th hour. And he doesn't even say, like, he doesn't. praise or highlight any good qualities about Andrew Cuomo. It's like, you know, you might not like Andrew Cuomo, but you must vote for him. You have no choice. I mean, what the hell?

So let's take a moment to talk about Cuomo. The Vandami Rise is so stunning and so historic. We shouldn't lose sight of the fact that Andrew Cuomo is one of the famous last names in American, certainly New York politics. You know, he came into this race, you know, ran a lethargic campaign, almost seemed like it was his birthright to win. Talk us through how he has closed this out, because it's been some pretty dark rhetoric about trying to really, it's about fear to motivate voters. Yeah, I mean, Andrew, I think you see this a lot in campaigns where they're trying to gain traction. He tries a bunch of different messages, right? And I think he's tried to go after the areas where he expects Mamdani is doing well, you know, like gay voters and sort of suggesting that he's close to Ugandan officials that, you know, are anti-gay.

He's tried to cleave some of the South Asian and Muslim communities. But it does feel like, you know, there's sometimes, look, we don't want to predict what will happen. And we're talking about maybe 2 million voters turning out in total, which is the most since the 60s, since John Lindsay. Like, there's huge interest. So we don't know who those voters are. But sometimes it seems like a certain number of voters turn their back on you. and if you're talking about the past, you're often losing a campaign.

If you're talking about the future, you tend to be winning. And it sometimes feels like Andrew got caught in that and couldn't get out. What's the explanation, if there is one, for Curtis Slewa, looking to be on the polls for 25% of the vote, quarter of the vote? You know, it's fascinating. First of all, in the debates, he was entertaining, much as the president can be. He was quick.

There's a lot of people who, on the Democratic side, feel stuck. And Sleo's got, you know, he's got a certain loyal base. He's been around. And he talks, like, a certain number of New Yorkers who have been around. And, you know, how many times do you hear people who generally don't drive in New York talk about potholes? He's talking about potholes. So there's some kind of staying power.

I mean, the real question is today, where does his percentage fall to? Where does it like? Yeah. Right. And that's something that certainly the Cuomo people are looking at. Who has been in charge of the Cuomo campaign? Because the spots that they've shown in the last five or six days prior to the election today have been very effective. The closing argument has been better.

I think they struggled a little bit. They had Melissa DeRosa. they've had sort of some of the people who were with him in the governor's office. I do think that they struggled initially on the social media front. And Mondani is cinematic. I mean, he knows visual imagery and his stuff has been of a different level. So the question with Cuomo is the argument that he's making too late. Yeah.

And I was going to say that, Mike, those closing ads, This closing argument, the last week, been really strong ads in one of the most hapless, listless, directionalist campaigns. I think any of us have seen in a very long time. But, man, you talk about focusing in on a message the final week. Cuomo has been strong. Yeah. He absolutely seems to have found a message.

Yeah. It might be too late. It might be too late. Especially given that now we kind of front load elections where, you know, close to half. Half of the people have already voted. You know, a couple things. First of all. Okay.

I mean, don't ruin it, Joe. We wanted to come back. No, no, it's just to say. Donald Trump said Curtis Lewa looks better without his beret. I agree with that. There's a case for that. He really does. Yeah. I think Mike should get Curtis's bray and start wearing it.

See, how that gets. You can talk about a dangerous it is outside here, the mice running around. Maybe we'd bust up my hair. And we'd not like there. All right. Managing editor of the night. New York Times.

Carolyn, Ryan, thank you so much for coming on. Thank you. It's great to see you. Have you here. Thank you.