Morning Joe - GOP quiet on Trump family business dealings

Episode Date: August 20, 2026

August 20, 2026: 7am — GOP quiet on Trump family business dealings  To listen to this show and other MS podcasts without ads, sign up for MS NOW Premium on Apple Podcasts. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Live picture of the White House, all room still under construction. Working seven days a week, 20 hours a day to get that thing done. Got that helipad, though. And the helipad is almost in, as the president took an hour to show the press yesterday. So despite years of attacking Joe Biden's son Hunter over his business dealings, when it comes to the Trump family's highly lucrative crypto business, defense contracts and mining interests, some of those very same Republican lawmakers have a lot less to say.

Jack with MS now. I was curious if you have any concerns about the president's sons profiting off of defense contracts. The president doesn't talk to you guys. Why should not? Using complex maneuvers to pocket millions of dollars from our adversary. It is time to impeach this compromise commander and chief. Do you have any concerns about it? You were concerned about Hunter Biden and Burisma. This is a tale as old as time. Politician takes action that, makes money for his family, and then he tries to conceal it. The stable coin venture that got UAE funding?

Is there any profiting off of the presidency there? What about the Kazakhstan mining venture? Is that something you're familiar with? Degli heard something about that, but I have not heard. Does any of this, I guess, sound reminiscent of some of the Burisma concerns that you did have? The concern here is not Hunter Biden's own problem. but rather it is official corruption from the then vice president of the United States, Joe Biden, and now the president of the United States, show Biden.

Are you concerned at all by the Trump's son's investments that have benefited from defense contracts and the Kazakhstan mining venture? Is that on your radar at all? I don't have concerns on that front. There are very legitimate questions about his ties to China, his ties to Burisma, his ties in Ukraine. We need to know the truth because it's affecting our policy right now. any overall concerns about profiting off of the presidency for the Trump family? I love how you heads all of a sudden. They're like, oh, now we want to pay attention to something.

Everybody should be treated the same. Overall, is this something that you have looked into it? I'm not having this interview here on the side of the road. That's from MS now's Jack Fitzpatrick. Joe, that captures this political era, does it not? Which is the false outrage about things that were happening in the Biden administration, going after Hunter Biden for something that on the spectrum of what's happened now in the first year and a half of the second Trump term in terms of self-dealing, self-enrichment, what the sons have been able to do and how they've been able to profit, just completely pales in comparison to what Hunter Biden did. It's child's play. It's child's play. He sold his art for why. 50s, 60s. I don't know how much he sold his art for, but it wasn't $2 billion. It wasn't $2 billion. It wasn't possibly $4 billion.

And I had people that were in the MAGA adjacent media, MAGA adjacent friends that melted down for years over whether Hunter Biden flew on Air Force 2 and talked business on Air Force 2. These sort of things are quaint compared to, again, the defense contracts, the mining deals. and I heard Chip Roy talking about how, oh, well, this is important because this could change policy right now. Really? You're talking about changing policy right now? You look at what these dills have been? I mean, they've twisted and contorted foreign policy. You know, there were sometimes that we didn't get everything right in the first term.

I remember talking about Ivok. at Trump and some trademarks or something, that ended up being something that she had already registered for. But with the signs and with Donald Trump and with the money that they're making right now, again, we're talking billions and billions of dollars straight into their pockets. It's pure corruption. And it is actually impacting foreign policy. It is actually impacting the decision that Donald Trump is making inside of the White House. These Republicans are saying absolutely nothing. Now, listen, a couple ways you can look at it.

You can get angry and you say, oh, my God, they're such hypocrites. How could they look at themselves in the mirror? They should be ashamed of themselves. I'd just rather see what the voters think about it in the fall because corruption does matter. At the end of the day, you know, in Hungary, it wasn't all the authoritarian overreach that Orban disres, displayed through the years.

It was corruption that helped bring him down. And I think it may be corruption and the fact that these Republicans are sitting by and allowing this to be the most corrupt administration in the history of American. Please, if anybody thinks there's a close second, please let me know in terms of dollars.

Please let me know. Somebody said there's like a teapot dome scandal happening every day inside this White House and everybody's growing home to it. So if Republicans, Republicans aren't going to say anything about it. Okay. I think their voters may. And that will be bad news for them. With us talking about this, opinion writer for the New York Times, Moray Gay, and staff writer at the Atlantic, Mark Leavovich. Mark, I start with you. Just talk about the numbness, how everybody is so numb to the fact that Donald Trump is bringing in people to the White House, talking up their products. Then you find out he's invested in their companies. He's pushing and promoting. promoting these companies that he's invested in already, or you can talk about the crypto business,

or you can talk about the defense stills, or you can talk about all of these other things, where they've made billions and billions of dollars. And yet these same Republicans who were melting down over 100 Biden possibly bringing a business associate on Air Force 2. And suddenly, it doesn't matter. I'm not going to talk about this. Of course, you're not going to talk about it because you'd have to admit they're fleecing America. They're fleecing our allies. They're fleecing anybody. They're open to the highest bidder. I'm beginning to think that politicians in the Republican Party are guilty of hypocrisy. Now, I don't really know. I could be wrong about this, but has that occurred to anybody here?

I mean, I've always been an idealist around these things. Look, there has always been a double standard in politics. I mean, there's selective outrage. It's sort of part of what goes on here. The orders of magnitude of difference here are just so stunning. And I do sort of disagree with the idea that it's a numbing effect because I do think that people are collectively aware of it. And it could be in anything but numb response at the ballot box in November.

I think, look, I think it's just. The only numbing part about it is it's hard to wrap your brain around. And the dollar signs, the dollar values are so high, some of these actions are so audacious that it's really hard to sort of find language for them. But I do think that the numbness, you know, we're going to sort of see how this is really playing because it really is straight up corruption. Mara, this folds nicely into the reporting trip you took to Georgia. I'm thinking about those speeches made by Senator Assoff, where he explicitly walks audiences through the corruption.

Here's what the administration is doing. Here's how it works. Here's how it's screwing you in the end. So I'm curious, we'll play some of what you heard, but just broadly, what did you find down there in Georgia? Well, the great pleasure and privilege of actually going and asking voters in their own hometowns, what they want is my favorite part of the the job. And so we talked in this trip to black voters from all different backgrounds across the state of Georgia, from rural Georgia and the south to Atlanta and suburban Atlanta. And what we've found overall is that there's a lot of anger not only toward Trump and the Republicans, but toward

the Democratic establishment and leadership as well. And a lot of that is driven by concerns, not just about affordability writ large, but the idea that corporate, uh, corporate, uh, intro, have really taken over politics and taken over both political parties. From the White House, the Democratic Party, they want corporate money out of politics, and they want a fighter in office who's going to speak to their economic, you know, travails, but also just going to bring back hope and joy to politics. And so I was most stunned to hear even older Black Democrats who are not necessarily super progressive, really open to, interested in, brought up themselves folks like Zerun Mammani

in the same sentence as folks like John Ossoff. So what they see, they see that from their point of view, this is about who's going to fight for them, who's going to fight for multiracial democracy, who's going to fight to protect civil rights, and also to help make sure that they and their children can live a decent middle class life in this. country and that they're not captured by corporate interests. So let's listen to some of your conversation, this among Democratic voters who say their votes should not be taken for granted. What do you think the Democratic Party thinks of you? I think that the progressives of the Democratic Party specifically, I think they see me as a person

who is capable of inspiring change within my community. But I would say for a lot of the more older members of the Democratic Party feels like I'm just another number to get them a vote. Sounds like generational change is something people are looking for. Oh, I mean, again, even older voters said to me, they said, look, you know, I wish the Democrats would focus on the economy more, but we are just missing some young blood. Yeah. What happened? Something went wrong. And so again, though, there's a sense that there's a group of kind of, you know, standbys, people who've been there too long, who have been captured by interests and are no longer representing the people.

And some of that has to do with age and generational change. Some of that has to do with policy. But they are looking for new ideas and new people to represent them. There's been so much talk about this democratic socialist movement that spans from New York City, but now to Michigan. and then a couple of nights ago in the state of Florida where Angie Nixon, who we had on the show yesterday, won a double-digit victory over Alexander Vindman. So you talked to some Georgians about how they feel

about that movement within the party. Socialists, you know, the word is like a dirt. It's like a bad word. A lot of people, yeah. A lot of people. But they have some good points. I mean, there are some things that really take care of, you know, some countries that really do have the socialist perspective.

They really took care of their citizens. So the words, Democratic, Socialists, The phrase doesn't scare you. Doesn't scare me. What are some of the ideas that you hear from folks like AOC, for example, or Bernie, that you like? That I like that. We need to do this health care piece. Medicare for all. Medicare for all.

Yes, for all. You know, if you're a citizen, you're born and raised, you should lease me to go and say, I can get my teeth pulled. So, Mara, obviously, we have seen every race is different. Every candidate is different. Every district is different. Whether or not, sort of a, quote, socialist ideas play or not. But here, whether the label is socialism or not, are you seeing a, you see a socialism. Are you seeing a real energy there about some of these more sort of progressive concepts or just

sort of like, hey, you know, there are a means to an end. We just need to shake things up. Absolutely. And I think we should really be careful about how radical some of these ideas are. I mean, some of the DSA platform is super radical. Abolishing prisons is not what is motivating these voters I talk to. But other parts of it, Medicare for all, for instance, the idea that every American should have health care. The idea that people should be treated the same at the voting booth or, you know, if they're going to go into a courtroom, that they shouldn't have special privileges because of who their daddy is. I mean, these are not radical concepts. Also, I think there is a laziness about the way we think about black voters in particular who are at the heart of the Democratic Party. And of course, the Democrats have decided that

South Carolina is going to be the first state for 2028 in the primary. So there's going to be a lot of attention on black voters and they are not a single block. And in many cases, especially because of the suffering in the black community right now, just like many Americans are suffering, there is an openness to try something new. And there's a hunger for that. So I think, you know, the DSA can also, in some ways, be thought of as just a political strategy. It's a different way to organize people. But when you go to places like Georgia, and even when you go to Michigan, I mean, it's not that foreign because this is a union state. We're talking about an electorate that is ready to try something new and also really frustrated and very disappointed and has been let down by the Democratic leadership.

And I just think, you know, Jeffries, leader Jeffries after the win by the DSA candidates in New York said something kind of glib as. as the effect of, oh, well, this was the most gentrified district in America. Well, is Jacksonville, Florida, the most gentrified district or area in America? Is Albany, Georgia, the most gentrified? No, this is coming from the base. This is not coming from, you know, some Nepo babies who are hanging out in the commie corridor of Brooklyn. And we're seeing, we had to go back to our interview with Angie Nixon yesterday, nuance. in the, she doesn't want to abolish prison.

She said, I don't want to defund the police. She does agree that we should not aid of any kind to Israel, which is going to be difficult to defend in the state of Florida running statewide. But there is this broad brush. And I think a lot of us at this table disagree with the more extreme elements of it. But the economic message that candidates like Angie Nixon are leaning into seems to be breaking through. The economic message, but also the accountability portion of this, because you can talk all

day about broad concepts like affordability. But we have to acknowledge exactly what Joe was talking about a moment ago, which is there are people who are stealing from the American people. And so when they're not held accountable, what kind of message is that sent? I mean, we talk so much about the erosion of trust in democratic institutions. But when I went to Georgia and talked to people, what really kind of stuck with me is this idea that because Donald Trump himself, the most powerful man in the land was not held accountable and those around him were not held accountable, that is probably the biggest driver of the lack of trust at this point among voters because they're saying, well, what hope is there for me, for the little guy, for a small business

owner, for someone just starting out at a college? People want a sense of fairness. And if the Democratic Party is not going to organize itself in terms of just the veterans in that party and the leadership. You know, there's not a lot of faith that they are willing to stand up and fight for the country and the vision of the country that millions of Americans want. So people are looking for an alternative. And right now that's coming from the left. Doesn't have to, by the way. Well, that frustration drove one of the Georgians you spoke to to vote for President Trump explains why here. There was a point that I just voted straight Democrat.

Now I'm at the point that I'm actually taking the time to look at each candidate, to actually see the ballot before I go to the voting booth to know what I'm doing. The first time I voted for Obama, I thought it was going to make a difference. And the first time I voted for Donald Trump, I thought it was going to make a difference. Let me ask, your vote for Donald Trump both times. Was that a vote that was cast in the hopes that Donald Trump could maybe make a change or deliver something different? Or was that a protest vote against the Democratic Party? Probably more protest.

It sounds like the Democratic Party has let you down. I think government has let me down. And Mark Leavovich, that's the key line right there. It doesn't matter party anymore, right? We've been let down. My life is too expensive. It's too difficult. Rich people are getting richer.

I can't get anywhere. I can't afford to buy a house. All the things we talk about every day on this show. So if you are the DNC right now watching Mara's interviews in the state of Georgia, you're thinking what? Well, I mean, I certainly would pay attention to, I mean, all this DSA stuff and the candidates who are perceived or many people would perceive to be too left to center to be viable for Democrats, Their success is telling it's obviously transformed the Democratic Party.

I mean, I guess what we're going to learn is how that's going to play out in general election settings, particularly in places like Michigan. But I also think, look, as far as messaging goes, I mean, core economic messages, especially around things like health care, do seem to be driving a lot of these views. I mean, yes, there is this blanket frustration with government. I think both parties, I think there's obviously more of it centered probably on the Republican now get there in power. But I do think that there is a pretty strong delineation between things like Medicare, for all, perhaps, certainly health care, some, you know, more economically based

things. And the kind of blanket fear and unpopularity around things like abolishing prisons, defund the police and so forth. So I do think Democrats have a real challenge to try to parse the message a little bit to really focus it on things that their voters and the swing voters potentially care a lot more about, which I think are economic messages. And corruption is related to that, obviously. Absolutely. Staff writer for the Atlantic, Mark Levovich. Lebo, thanks as always. Opinion writer at the New York Times. Mara Gaye bringing those incredible interviews. Mara, thanks so much for reporting. Thanks, I appreciate it. Still out of morning, Joe. President Trump announces his new pick to lead the FDA, and she already is raising concerns on both sides

of the aisle. Dr. Vin Gupta joins us with his take. Plus, his conversation with California California Governor Gavin Newsom on health care changes in that state. Now, the governor hopes to make things more affordable. You're watching Morning Joe. We'll be right back. Beautiful live picture of the mall 732 on this Thursday morning. President Trump has announced the top White House aide, Dr. Heidi Overton, as his pick to lead the Food and Drug Administration. She was in the Oval Office with the president earlier this month as he announced that

plan to split the combined measles, mumps, and rebella vaccine into three separate immunizations. against medical expert advice. Overton also has been critical of abortion pills. If confirmed, she would be positioned to rollback FDA rules, making them more accessible. To be confirmed, Dr. Overton must face questions from the Senate Health, Education, Labor, and Pensions Committee. Its chair, Republican Senator Bill Cassidy, posted on social media yesterday that he has, quote, strong concerns about Overton's role in the MMR order, calling it almost disqualifying, but history tells us how he'll look.

Let's bring an MS Now senior medical analyst, Dr. Vin Gupta. Dr. Gupta, good morning. So what more do we know about Dr. Overton? Willie, good morning. What we recognize, and I think that the Trump administration recognizes is that they need a compliant FDA to meet their priorities and everything they're trying to do to the vaccine schedule, Willie, everything that they're trying to do when it comes to their health initiatives more broadly,

that they need regulation here to comply and to enact. the policies that they want to do. And so the FDA is quite powerful. They can tinker with vaccine licenses. They can change and compel pharmaceutical companies to potentially manufacture these individual vaccines and potentially complicate the licenses of existing vaccines. So this is not trivial. I hope Cassidy is serious at his word finally because Dr. Overton has dangerous views when it comes to American public health. And a lot of women out there rely on medication abortion via mail order telemedicine for access. And she wants to roll that back.

One of the things is good to know about her is she's an ally and supporter of Bobby Kennedy, Jr., which tells you a lot about her stance on vaccines. How concerned should the public be about that part of the story? Well, you know, they had the circus press conference a week ago. The question from that was, well, what does it? an executive order without Ashley Teeth. Dr. Overton at the FDA can execute on a lot of what they're trying to do because she controls at the FDA the licenses for vaccines, what does and does not get approved. So she has power. And so if the two are synced, that is concerning for states,

for families, for pediatricians. So they know what they're doing when it comes to the law and regulation and who they need in power. Dr. Guper, let's turn to your interview. You sat down just yesterday with California Governor Gavin Newsom for a conversation about the cost of health care, as well as a new initiative in the state to provide access to life-saving medication. Let's watch. The headwinds, as you suggest from Washington, D.C. are off the charts. California, just looking at, we talk in the aggregate, we don't live in the aggregate in California, the impacts of HR1, the big, beautiful bill. About 1.3 million Californians will lose their health care. Another 500 plus

thousand will lose their access to food. And so instead of, again, lamenting about it, we're trying to figure out creative ways to address it. So here's how we've done it. Your right to assess what we've done on expansion. And we've done about as much or more than any other state in the nation. We're about 5.9% uninsured rate. Put that just for perspective in contrast to a state like Texas gets a lot of attention, a large state. They're close to 16.7%. They're in 16 to 17 to 17. California is below 6%. That's a choice. They've made that choice. We've made a different choice. Now that we've expanded health care in a controversial way, I'm not naive, and I'll take the grief. I said I'm committed to universal health care. And I meant it. The voters supported me on multiple

occasions, and we delivered it regardless of preexisting conditions, ability to pay, and immigration status. In this state, about a million kids have asthma, and one in three will miss up to a week of school because they don't have access to albureol. And so we were lamenting about that, but we finally started to reconcile that we can do something about it through an initiative we launched a few years ago called CalRRX, where we're actually starting to produce and partner with the private sector and to produce our own alternative drugs at much lower prices. And that's the initiative we just launched today where we're going to provide albuterol for free, for three, years across the system, 10,000 schools to finally address this gap.

Are you making a larger argument on the role of states to do what perhaps the federal government is unwilling or cannot do? We're the fourth largest economy in the world. Let's act like it. Let's compete. We're actually reducing the cost, $11 a pen, $55 for a five-pack, competing directly with pharmaceutical industry that now, of course, is pushing back against these initiatives. $19. Naloxone, 50% lower than the market rate.

We're getting down to $9.50 for the albutarol. We're going after the costs. And we're doing it using bulk purchasing, using our creativity, using our strategy to get rid of the middleman to address all the marketing and waste and costs and directly resolving to fundamentally pass that savings on, not only to the taxpayer, but to provide the benefit. to the students in particular. So it's a whole new initiative. We've done three life-saving initiatives related to Calarex. We're going to do EpiPens next. We're going after tuberculosis

drugs, which we're having the budget. I want to stick with Calorex for a moment. Is it a series in your view of targeted interventions or is this a framework, as you point out about states, for what Americans can expect when it comes to accessing essential medications? It's a new approach, mindset, and it's one that states can adopt in the absence of federal leadership, new partnerships, new opportunities. We're doing it with cities and counties, and now we're doing it with the state and our school system. But the opportunity has to build those partnerships outside of the state of California presents itself anew. And I'm out there preaching. I go to the National Governors Association saying, join us. Let's do this. Same with the Democratic Governors Association,

and I'm hoping other states follow the lead. So Dr. Gupta as a physician, but also someone who really thinks broadly about health policy, what do you make of what you heard from the governor yesterday? Yeah, you know, Willie, how many conversations do you and I have about our communities losing herd immunity for infectious diseases or families and now losing affordable access to health insurance? Schools, and I've seen this directly, are becoming ground zero, Willie, when it comes to triaging an instance of an asthma exacerbation in a child.

And the question here across the country is schools often don't have the right resources. They don't have the right staffing to deal with that. And so, of course, no one policy is going to solve everything. And I think what's unique is California, the largest state in the union, is using their purchasing power to do something about these realities in Washington. The governor said it. They manufactured their own insulin with partners, an eloxone with partners, now albuterol. Willie asthma is one of the most underdiagnosed and under-treated conditions in the country amongst children and adults. So this is a meaningful, substantive priority of the American Lung Association and other public health associations.

And this is really states leading here in the absence of federal leadership. Healthcare costs are crippling people across the country. So maybe this is a way to get at that as well. MS Now senior medical analyst, Dr. Vin Gupta, thanks for bringing us to your interview with Governor Newsom. Always good to see you. Coming up, it has been more than 30 years since the capture of the international terrorist known as Carlos the Jackal. Now, Pulitzer Prize-winning author, Jobi Warwick, takes us inside the life of the man who became known as the world's first super terrorist. That's next on Morning Joe.

Carlos, alias the Jackal, who had snuck away from police year after year, was snuck into prison. French officials say he was captured in the North African country of the Sudan. yesterday on a tip from Paris that Carlos was about to commit more terrorist acts. Carlos is in the hands of French justice and will be judged for his crimes as the Interior Minister Charles Pasquois. To ABC News report from August of 1994 when international terrorist Carlos the Jackal was captured after a bloody decades-long career of hijackings, hostage crises, and high-profile assassinations. Now, Pulitzer Prize winning office.

author and Washington Post reporter, Joby Warwick, is out with a new book on the notorious criminal titled The Jackal, the rise and fall of Carlos, the world's first super terrorist. And Joby joins us now. He had the rare opportunity to interview Carlos face-to-face in prison. Joby, this is an extraordinary piece of reporting, an extraordinary book. I first want to hear what it was like to go to that French Supermax prison where Carlos the Jackal is being held and to sit face to face with him. It was an extraordinary moment, Willie.

I just prepared for this for a long time, but then when you're sitting next to, literally just a couple of inches away from one of the most notorious terrorists of all time, it's a little overwhelming. But essentially, he's an old man now. He's 75 when I met him, 76 now. His memory is starting to fade a little bit.

But you can tell in just a few minutes that beneath all the wrinkles and the gray hair is a criminal narcissism. mind. Someone who has no remorse for the things he did feels just spiteful about the people who betrayed him in his view and led to his capture. So he's not a happy guy at all. Joby, let's just take a step back and remind people who Carlos the Jackal is, because it has been 32 years since he was arrested, the crimes he committed, and why was so difficult to track him down? Yeah. I mean, most of us kind of grew up in a time when 9-11 defined terrorism for us.

We knew about al-Qaeda and Osama bin Laden, that generation of jihadi terrorists. But there was an earlier wave of terrorism, and those of us who were old enough remember that, there was a time when hijackings happened all the time, where there were hostage takings, when Olympic athletes got slaughtered at the Olympic Games in Munich. And Carlos was the most famous face of that wave of terrorist attacks. And it's interesting to look at now, because a lot of the things that we saw later from al-Qaeda, the idea of hijacking multiple planes at once, kind of playing out these very dramatic terrorist attacks on television.

All that originated with Carlos' generation. And for me, it was fascinating to understand how that movement began, where these guys came from and their ideas, and what other terrorists learned for them later. Yeah, Joby, it's a great point. As you write, the Jackal was a pioneer of borderless terrorist attacks designed for television. It also seems sort of a model you argue for autocrats

who saw, you know, using terrorists as a way to sort of punish foes or even they just exist as a threat, as some sort of leverage point. Talk to us about that part of his legacy. Why are we so interested still in this man so many decades later? You're right. Because originally Carlos was, he tried to claim to be a Palestinian terrorist

representing the Palestinian cause. He was a Palestinian at all. He was from Venezuela. He was a Marxist. He had an entirely different ideology. But eventually he gets kicked out of the Palestinian groups and he went on his own. He decided to become basically,

a mercenary terrorist and went to work for all the bad guys in the world at the time. The Muammar Gaddafi's of Libya, the Iraqis, the Syrians, anybody would pay him to do criminal acts, to attack their opponents, and so they wouldn't get blamed for it. And that model still exists today, and I argue that what we have now is sort of less of a jihadi threat. You know, you see ISIS and al-Qaeda on the wane, but you see a return of that kind of mercenary terrorism where countries like Russia and the Iranians increasingly will, will have. hire a terrorist, hire a criminal, hire somebody from prison to, you know, bomb a synagogue or to

assassinate a dissident, do things just for a few hundred dollars or in some cases much more money, but it's an easy way for them to attack their enemies, to attack their geopolitical rivals, and get away with it without getting blamed or getting any blowback. And because he has such a hold on the public conscience all these decades later, you know, there's been stories, fictional and nonfiction versions of his life. But you learned some new things here, including the CIA's role in terms of tracking him down. Tell us out that. Yeah, it's really interesting. That bit of footage that you showed from France in 1994, the French took full credit for the capture of Carlos. It turns out the

story was really much more intricate than that. The CIA had been tracking him for some time. They very much wanted them from the Reagan administration on. They had figured out that he had moved to Khartoum, which essentially the mecca of terrorism at the time. And they laid eyes on them. They were able to figure out where his safe house was, and they watched him day after day. There's a scene in the book where there's a moment where CIA officers are at a nightclub with Carlos the Jackal, and he's on the dance floor, oblivious to everything, drinking, having a great time. And so these officers go out and the dance floor with him, you know, bring some women along, and just they're literally dancing next to Carlos the Jackal. And then a few weeks later, they pull off this extraordinary capture with the French to bring him to justice. and went to trial in Paris, and he's been in prison ever since.

I don't want to give away some of the best details of the book, but that operation where he was getting the, let's call it, delicate procedure that the CIA found to capture him. The folks will have to read to see the details. The new book is The Jackal, the rise and fall of Carlos, the world's first super terrorist. It is great, and it is available now. Pulitzer Prize winning author, journalist, Joby Warc.

Joby, thanks so much, and congrats on the book. Thank you. Coming up next, we'll show you how Republican Senator Darlene Graham is defending her disastrous debate answer to a basic question about national security. Morning Joe's coming right back. Senator, are Taiwan and the South China Sea national security issues for the United States? If so, why? I'm sorry, could you repeat the question? Are Taiwan and the South China see national security issues for the United States?

And if so, why or how? I'm just going to be honest here. I'm not on national security. I'm not that informed on national security, but I do support the military. My brother was in the Air Force for 33 years, so I will do everything I can to support the military. My dad was in the Army.

I'm not a polished politician up here. National security is not my thing, not my area of expertise, but I do support the military. That was Senator Darlene Graham of South Carolina, of course, the sister of the late Lindsay Graham, Tuesday night, the only debate before the state's runoff election. Graham addressed her answer on foreign policy in a new interview last night on Fox News. I've said many times. I'm not a politician, certainly not a career politician. I don't speak politician. You know, I was just honest, and I think that's kind of a foreign concept.

But I talked to several people today. I traveled around the state, and they said, you, you know, you know, we appreciated the fact that you were honest. And I did say several times that, you know, China is our enemy, our military and economic threat to the United States. Of course, Taiwan is our friend. But I think people in South Carolina are more worried about making ends meet. They're concerned about boys and girls' sports. One lady talked to me extensively about that today. they're concerned about the Second Amendment.

They're concerned about the Save America Act. Graham is in a runoff primary election for a full term in the Senate. She's facing Republican Congressman Ralph Norman. That election is coming on Tuesday. Honesty is one thing, but you're trying to be United States Senator for a full term. And as her brother would tell her, that's a very, foreign policy is a very important part of that job and understanding what that is. And just one other point about the boys and girls' sports,

there's a state ban in South Carolina, so that's literally not happening at all. So it may be concern of the woman she talked to, but it cannot happen in South Carolina. Credit for honesty, but you also have to be qualified. And in some ways you feel bad for her. This is someone who's not in politics, as she's quick to say. I'm sure she's still in mourning for her brother.

This was sort of thrust upon her. This was not something she sought. And finally, it was sort of the idea as President Trump kind of said, like, you should do this. and we're so that was painful to watch in the debate the other night and you know she is someone who you know yes national security was a big part of what what her brother what her brother did and she doesn't seem to have many answers other than just like a handful of talking points and just pledging her loyalty to Donald Trump which was what the president all he cares about is to have someone you know another one on

the team but one wonders if voters will will will feel the same come primary time you know for Lindsey Graham's sister her she's running to carry on the legacy of Lindsey Graham, maybe that will be enough. We'll find out shortly. Still ahead on Morning Joe. We're going to pay off debt because remember we have $34 trillion in debt. We've got to pay it off. We're going to pay off debt. The $35 trillion in debt, we're going to pay it off. We'll start paying off debt and start lowering taxes even further. We're going to pay off our debt. We're going to do things that you wouldn't believe. We're going to make our country so competitive.

It was a couple short years ago. Despite those promises, We'll dig into President Trump's impact on the national debt, which just had a record high of $40 trillion going up at a rate of $1 trillion every five months. Morning Joe's coming right back.