Morning Joe - ICE detains DACA recipient Karla Toledo in Arizona

Episode Date: October 8, 2026

October 8, 2026: 7am — ICE detains DACA recipient Karla Toledo in Arizona  To listen to this show and other MS podcasts without ads, sign up for MS NOW Premium on Apple Podcasts. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

The reason why you hear it from the left and the right on content moderation, they work in the refs. Facebook isn't the ref. That's the point. That's the point, Charlie. We're not the ref. We're the public square. I'm a free speech absolutist. So accept where there's imminent harm. You can't say absolutists and accept in the same. With the new optimizations with the MSI, the fire hose of bad information, you are injecting into the air supply is becoming jet powered. It's hydraulic. Harm, I promise you, is imminent. That was a look at the new film, The Social Reckoning, in Theaters Tomorrow. And as you saw there, the new movie features an all-star cast, including Jeremy Strong as Mark Zuckerberg and Bill Burr as a colleague-turned-critic, Charlie Garrigan, inspired by true events. It's a companion piece to the hit 2010 film, The Social Network, telling the story of what social media has become.

since. And the Oscar Golden Globe and Emmy Award winning writer, director, and producer of the film, Aaron Sorkin, joins us now. Emma's now contributor, Mike Barnacle, joins the table as well. So I saw the film. You saw the film. It was very powerful. And what is the ultimate conclusion that it makes about the impact of meta, Facebook, on our politics? Well, it's having a big impact on our politics. What the film's about is a young Facebook engineer. Francis Howgan, is played by Mikey Madison, discovers something terrible and can't get the attention of her bosses,

so she enlists the help of a Wall Street Journal investigative reporter who is played by Jeremy Allen White, and together they uncover even more really dark secrets that Facebook is keeping. including beyond the tons of misinformation, what they did was tweak the algorithm so that it would give you more content that you want to reshare, knowing that the things you're most likely to reshare are anything that makes you angry. So, for instance, just showing you one after another immigrants committing crimes. Right. I'm curious, was there anything that surprised you between? doing this movie and social dilemma.

Like what... Between doing social network and social... Social network. Yeah, yeah. A ton. Yeah. 43% of adults get their news from Facebook. That's wild.

Yeah. I think the big change that was made... Back in 2010 when we did the social network, it was a social network. It was kind of a neat way to keep up with people, your friends from school. once they added the news feed and that news feed is powered by an algorithm

that means that you're getting different news than you're getting, then you're getting, and we're all living in our different realities. So obviously that this is set backdrop against the pandemic and then we see January, which is January 6th as well. The piece does, the movie does such a terrific job

crystallizing how hands-off these companies, Facebook are. And I think we've seen it other places too. They don't feel like they emphasize profits over any sort of social responsibility, not understanding that they, for so many, are a new source. That's right. For a while, there was meant to be always a tension at the company between growth and safety. And then Mark decided that safety wasn't doing anything for him.

So it was all about growth. And it has become incredibly dangerous. And also we should note Jeremy Strong as Mark Zuckerberg. Spectacular. Mika and I, and we both saw the film this week as she saw. The line that stuck with us is near the end when another Facebook employees describes them as post-government. Yeah. We're twice as big as the biggest country on Earth. We're post-government around here.

Yeah. Whoa. Let's stick with Jeremy Strong for a second. He portrays Mark Zuckerberg. His performance is incredible. I agree with you. And it's almost a performance that is threatened. when you think about who Mark Zuckerberg really is and what Facebook the impact it has had on our

culture and on our country. So do you ever, as just an ordinary citizen, not the maker of the movie, worry about what Facebook and the damage Facebook does on a daily basis to our culture and our country? Yes, we should all be worried. This isn't a fake problem. This is for real. And It's unprecedented that we've had these discussions of what Facebook is doing to democracy. And by the end of the film, you know, there's a pretty unsettling sequence where we see a consequence, a reckoning. Okay. So as Aaron said, the film depicts Facebook whistleblower, Francis Hogan, played by Mikey Madison, an actor, Jeremy Allen White, as investigative journalist Jeff Horwitz, whose partnership led to the Facebook files.

expose in 2021, revealing the company knew its platforms cause harm. In the past, we have both spoken with both Hauken and Horwitz on Morning Joe about their concerns with Facebook and its algorithms. And here's some of what they told us. I came forward because I was deeply concerned that Facebook's actions and the information they were hiding from the public was hurting people. When children don't have meaningful in-person social experiences and opportunities to have those, and they turn to having an online, a social life via social media, it opens them up to extreme danger. Because these algorithms pull them into rabbit holes. They reinforce mild interests like we might look for healthy recipes and literally be led just by clicking on that content to anorexia content.

And so we need to be looking at the holistic health of our kids. The algorithm, which you get at in this book, which you say is harmful. It drives kids to places that can be harmful to themselves. Is this by design from the point of view of meta? Yes. The harm, not so much, but the conditions that lead to the harm, absolutely, right? The whole goal here of the product is to personalize. This is the core of their system.

and the idea is that whatever results in greater engagement, the company is generally going to push and they're going to push it hard. And so if that is something that is going to exacerbate vulnerabilities that a person has about their own, say, self-image, that's going to be an issue. So that was all back in 2023, Aaron, and not much has changed. There's been little in the way of accountability that really protects our kids from these networks. Yeah, nothing has changed. And a big part of the problem is that there are no laws. Laws need to be passed.

And the people who would pass those laws, their campaigns are being funded by the tech oligarchs. So when you say in the film about the post-government world, is it that that you're referring to you, trying to tackle that side of it, or is trying to also hint at something that I think many of us are feeling now is that you've got these companies

with these incredibly wealthy owners who seem to operate with impunity. and that is only going to go forward with new technologies and AI, that this is a post-government world. Governments don't control them. They control us and our governments. Yeah, no, you put it very nicely. Look, what I was after with the movie was,

I just wanted to make a great newspaper story, a great journalism story. You know, it's in the same DNA as all the president's men and spotlight and the insider. It's a David and Goliath story. in which David finally does pick up a stone and throws it at Goliath. And one of the things we haven't talked about is that they also discover the incredible harm that Instagram is inflicting, particularly on teenage girls. Right.

One and three. So META says they've come out with some new, I guess, regulations or an age limit on it. I mean, what do you make of those changes given what you found, especially as you were making this movie? Someone who knows a lot more than I do when, you know, there was a big settlement a few weeks ago between META and the states that were suing it. I think it was an $18 billion settlement. First you have to understand, it takes META nine days to make $18 billion. So it doesn't hurt that much. This expert said this is a terrible problem.

problem that just got 3% better. Talk about the addictive nature of this stuff. Yeah, sure. And that's what these lawsuits were about that matter was hiding the addictive nature of this stuff. A gambling addict, when they get that hit of dopamine, it doesn't happen when they win. It doesn't happen when they're raking in the chips. It happens when the roulette wheel is spinning, when the horses are charging down the final stretch, when the field goal kick is up in the air. That's when they get the hit of dopamine. A kid gets the hit of dopamine when they're reaching into their pocket to check their phone to see if they got a like,

to see if they have a new follower, that kind of thing. It is a chemical addiction. For sure, and those notifications do a lot of different things. I mean, the scrolling, we talk about young girls. I think it's young girls and guys is, again, just mesmerizing. It keeps them up all night. But there's also, they can see where their friends are. They can see them in there. It's a whole world inside their phones that they keep with them all night long. And you know, you asked me a minute to go, what, what's changed between 2010 and now, what's changed between the social network and now, here's what hasn't changed. If the inspiration, the motivation for Mark at the outset to build Facebook was he was a guy

who wasn't comfortable in the social world of college, a lot of us can identify with that. Wasn't being invited over to the cool kids table, and a lot of us can identify with that. He's a genius. He invented his own cool kids table that he would be the mayor of. He simply seeks to expand and expand that table and get as much of your life as possible being lived in the metaverse,

where now three billion people live. And a lot of us don't want to live in the metaverse, and we're kind of walking into this party where the punch has been spiked. It's so striking that the whistleblower, Mikey Madison character, repeatedly says in the movie that she believes in Facebook. She wants Facebook to work.

She loves Facebook to work. But it is this sort of, would you sort of assess it as a loss of its original North Star. Right. Yeah. You're right that that character, that Francis, she is committed to the mission of Facebook, which is connecting people,

she is someone who feels more comfortable with her keyboard, sort of living in this virtual world than she does outside of it. But, you know, she sees that they're spiking the cigarettes with nicotine so that it becomes addictive and that nicotine kills you. Yeah, laced. I've got a wrap. I'm so sorry.

Okay, quick, quick, fornickel. Jeremy Strong and Zuckerberg. So good. Every scene it's in, he's working hard to be human. It's a thunderous performance. He is working hard to be human, including not saying words like human. Please don't call the users humans.

Oh, Lord. But Jeremy gives a fantastic performance. Both Jeremy's. Jeremy Strong. Jeremy Allen White, Mikey Madison, Bill Burr, Betty Gilpin, Wimmi Masaku, Billy Magazine, the whole cast. It's like somebody tossed me the keys to a Ferrari. Really good. Before you go, your acclaimed courtroom drama, A Few Good Men, is coming back to Broadway. Yeah, yes. The first Broadway revival, Lincoln Center. The first preview is

tonight. And it opens October 29th. It's a phenomenal cast with Michael Arden directing. It's a very theatrical experience. It's really exciting. And I've done a polish on the whole thing. So we're treated good as a new play. You're pretty busy. The Broadway revival of a few good men starts preview performances tonight with opening nights set for October 29th and the new film. The Social Reckoning is in theaters tomorrow.

It's worth a look, especially if you have kids. So board-winning writer, director, and producer, Aaron Sorkin. Thank you so much for coming on the show this morning. Thank you very much. Appreciate it. Thank you. Still ahead on Morning Joe, we're digging into new reporting on emails that show how ICE sped up training for police officers making immigration arrests. Plus, we'll be joined by a Democratic congressman who's been critical of the Trump administration's immigration crackdown. You're watching Morning Joe. We'll be right back. Just about half past the hour. Welcome back to Morning Joe. A new investigative report by the Washington Post reveals ICE trim. training for deputized officers, specifically police officers, who are helping ICE arrest unauthorized immigrants who are given a shortened training course that scaled back instruction

on the nation's immigration laws. Joining us now, Washington Post investigative reporter behind that piece, Sylvia Foster Frau. Also here on set, MSNal, White House reporter Laura Barone Lopez. Good to have you both. Sylvia, I'm jumping into your research. here and looking at the growing number of partnerships between ICE and local police departments. And it looks like money talks. But this really expands the opportunity for them to sweep up people. Yes, absolutely. And thank you so much for having me because I think this is a really important and slightly undercover issue within the immigration world, which is the fact that apart from the fact that, we have ICE, this federal agency that's received billions of dollars and hired thousands of people.

On top of that, you have these agreements between ICE and local law enforcement that have grown exponentially. Under the Biden administration, there was a legacy of about 135 of these agreements across the country. That has exploded in these last two years to 2,600 agreements across the country. And we do live in a big country, right? It is really difficult, even with all the money that ICE has, to reach states and localities and places like rural Oklahoma, where I did a ride-along for their 287G a few weeks ago. But these local and state police officers are already in communities. They're already there, and they can do that work in a really efficient way to kind of help complete Trump's pressurized deportation agenda.

Well, this just confuses things more because haven't we seen case after case after case, Sylvia, where people have ice agents at their door without a warrant or bashing in their car windows, and usually what they do, these victims, is call the police. Yeah, I mean, that's a really great point. And I think what we're seeing across the country is a lot of communities are afraid of calling the police. And that was actually initially a really big criticism of these kinds of partnerships is that it disincentivized people to even report other kinds of crimes that they're seeing in their neighborhood out of fear of the police, right? Not to mention sort of the racial profiling concerns that come into play when you have police, you know, pulling people over on the street. streets. There's a million different infractions on the road that you can find, right? Like,

under a simple drive to work, whether you're, you know, turning your turn lane in just the amount of time and if there's enough space between you and another car, like all of that could be a reason for a police officer to pull you over. And what's striking about these kinds of operations, too, is that they're not as obvious as some of the splashier ice blitzes that have happened across the country in Chicago and Minneapolis, right? These can look like a traffic stop, but they're actually something much different than that. Sylvia, you reached out to the Department of Homeland Security for a response regarding your reporting.

You note, DHS did not immediately respond to a request for comment on the changes to the training program, but it has previously praised local agencies for their work collaborating with ICE on arrests. And apparently, according to Sylvia's report, reporting Laura paid them. So you're looking at training as well. First of all, what do you make of what Sylvia is brought to the table? And what can you tell us? What's the latest? We've done a number of reporting also on 287G. I mean, these exploded after the administration took over these kinds of contracts. And it's not just with local police departments. It's with, you know, sheriff's departments.

It's with highway patrol. It can be with across the gambit, you know, state and local PDs, and it's especially big in states like Florida in Texas. And so, yes, people will be stopped at by, you know, for a traffic stop by highway patrol, and then they end up being questioned about their citizenship and asked for papers. When it comes to training overall, training, obviously, Sylvia's reporting demonstrates, was cut, not just in these 287G programs, but it's also been cut for other ICE officers, you know, actual ICE officers, since the administration came in. And specifically when it comes to vehicle stops recently, because of all of the incidents that we saw where ICE was shooting into vehicles at people, recently there was a memo sent out by

the acting David Venturella of ICE, who he's the acting, he's ahead of ERO. That's the people that carry out the arrests and deportations. And it essentially said, you have to go through a certain number of trainings, at least one of them, in order to be, to conduct vehicles. stops and in order to be even driving a vehicle and he reminded ICE officers, oh, by the way, you can't pursue vehicles, which they're not supposed to do anyways. That was always an established rule. You know, talking to current and former ICE and DHS officials, they're like, this is just a bare minimum that you should have this kind of training when you're conducting vehicle stops of people that they suspect are potentially undocumented immigrants or deportable. They

still feel like it doesn't go far enough. And it is, some of it is just very basic training that is required. So, Sylvia, obviously the training is different for members of local law enforcement, but the objectives are different too. And I was wondering if you got a sense when you were talking to police officers, how they feel about this, how they feel about being asked to do what they are doing for ICE. I appreciate that their department may be getting money to work alongside ice, but I imagine some of these individuals didn't necessarily think this is what they'd signed up for when they joined the police force. Yeah, I mean, I do think it's a pretty case-by-case basis, right? For some folks, the money, the resources, the technology, the fact that they're part of

this sort of like larger mission of the administration, like that is actually exciting for them. They're excited when a member of the administration comes into town to tout their 287 VNG agreement, as we've seen in a few instances across the country. But you're right, like we've also heard from police officers where, you know, they've been working their lives to build relations with the community, right, and really value those ties that they have to their locality. They're very trusted. As we all know, our local officers are often more trusted in the community than folks who are coming from out of town. And so what that does to sort of the fabric of the community, when these folks are the same people that you see at your

coffee shops and at your restaurants. I mean, it really does start to erode at the fabric, I think, of the community structure and the real connections that people build between each other. So I do think it probably depends on who you ask. But the result, I think, is very clear on the other side for the residents who are affected. National investigative reporter for the Washington Post, Sylvia Foster Frau. Thank you very much for your reporting this morning. Laura, stay with us, join us with our next guest, joining us now. Democratic Congresswoman Adelaida Grehalva of Arizona. It's really good to have you back on the show.

I want to jump to a case that you have been continuing to advocate for because it really connects to what we were just talking about. You continue to advocate for Carla Toledo, a DACA recipient with no criminal history, who was illegally detained after ICE broke into Iraq. warehouse without a warrant while searching for someone else. She was detained. This would be a good example of a situation in which you would call the police. If you could talk a little bit about a problem about ICE recruiting now police departments and I guess paying the money to get them to help with their efforts. Yeah, this is not something new. 287G funds have been available for,

I mean, at least a decade in Pima County. And it really depends on the body, the governing body, whether they want to move forward with accepting those funds or not into their law enforcement. And here in Pima County and in the city of Tucson specifically, we've said no. We didn't want, we wanted our people to be able to call their 911 and know that the person coming to them was going to be there to help them and not harm them. And so in these cases, that it's literally having that same sort of chilling effect where we have people that are, you know, sexually assaulted, that are being harassed, that are not calling their local law enforcement when these agreements are in place.

Congresswoman Grijalda, hi, this is Laura Buran Lopez. I just wanted to ask you, there have been so many instances of DACA recipients. I've covered them of being detained, in some cases deported, even returned by the administration after they've been wrongfully deported. do you feel as though there are any more of your Republican colleagues that are pushing back on this, that are going to speak out more about it, that they maybe will feel emboldened if Democrats somehow take over, you know, the House and the Senate when it comes to the effect on immigrant communities? I think more and more we're seeing that people know somebody personally, you know, their child's teacher,

their nurse, the person that they've trusted and known that is a local business owner around the corner. People know people who are DACA recipients. And so it's very different, I think, than this abstract idea of what immigration policy is happening because I hear it and see it all the time. Well, but I didn't think they would deport this one. You know, this is a good one. There are 60,000 of the good ones that are in current ICE detention right now.

We know people, and this is part of what's happening is that it is this retaliation, specifically in this case with Carla. She has been outspoken, so brave in talking about what the impact has been to her and to her family. And this is the case where, you know, I stormed in without a judicial warrant. She chose to tell her story, not just for her, but for every other dreamer. And I think that this might be the one issue where we can have bipartisan agreement, that these are people that came to this country when they, like in Carlos case, she was under a year old. And she has been living her life in this country. And she's now almost in her 30s.

My God. Democratic Congresswoman Adelaidehira Grijalva of Arizona. Thank you very much for coming on this morning. MSN. Now White House reporter Laura Barone Lopez. has thank you as well. And coming up on Morning Joe, our next guest has taken some of the most important photos in U.S. history.

Now, David Hume-Kennelay is telling his story in a new book, in the room, 60 years on the front lines of history. And he joins us next. Morning Joe will be right back. Welcome back.

He's the man behind some of America's most iconic photos from covering the Vietnam War to President Trump, David Hume Kennerley, has seen and captured it all. Now, the Pulitzer Prize-winning photographer is out with a new book titled In the Room, 60 Years on the Frontlines of History. It coincides with a special exhibition at the Theater Roosevelt Presidential Library, which opened last week in his honor. As part of the opening, Kennerley talked about his career.

and about witnessing events that changed the world. They are disparate moments in time. Decades, oceans, and parties apart. Postcards from the pages of American history. The common thread to each of these images is the man behind them. I was thinking, as the kid from Roseburg, Oregon, that how could anyone, person of taking all those pictures and how could it be me?

It was a veteran photographer that gifted David Hume Kennerley, his first front row seat to history on assignment for the Oregon Journal. This spot at a Portland event in 1966 to take this photo of Senator Robert F. Kennedy so close that you can see his notes on the podium. And this photographer, he turned around and pointed to me like, you can do this kid. And it was a profound moment. I vowed I wanted to be on that plane. I wanted to be in the room. Kennerley would be in the room in the moments before tragedy and the moments after, as America's royal family lost another son. Years later, Kennerley would put his own safety aside and joined so many others of his generation in the jungles of Vietnam.

Four of my classmates from Westland High School in Oregon had been killed in Vietnam in combat. As a news guy at that point, as a young man who was like the same age as most of them, I had to go there. Kennerley's portrait of Vietnam was unflinching, even under fire. His coverage helped win him a Pulitzer at just 25 years old. Back home, he would watch scandal, topple a presidency, and chronicle the next as Chief White House photographer.

as Gerald Ford tried to rebuild the nation. I just was fascinated with the idea of watching the big shots. How do they do their job to be in the room when somebody starts a war or stops it? In the decades since, he has seen our national story unfold through the lens of his camera. Our memories are his magazine covers, the high-stakes diplomacy, the bitter political fights, the moments that gave us hope. lift off of discovery with a crew of six astronaut heroes and one American legend. In a new millennium, America would face an election that would test its constitution

and an attack that would test its people, campaigns that made history and leaders that could put party aside. Kennerley was there for all of it, holding up a mirror to ourselves. This is how I look at the world. I mean, I've seen doom and gloom. I've seen really bad things happen. I always believe in better nature of people. Wow. David Hume canterly joins us now, and it's great to have you. I've been flipping through the book, and you know, what I found,

a picture of my dad that you took with Walter Mondale in his office back in 1977. Was my dad nice to you? Oh, yeah. Okay. That's because he couldn't see me through the door. He didn't kick you out. I know. Is there a most consequential photo in your career that you point to?

It's so hard for me to say that. I've thought a lot about having Anwar Sadat posed in front of the pyramids for the time, man of the year at the point. Jonestown. I love the picture that you showed here, Mrs. Obama. hugging George, Lovia Bush. It sort of encompasses all the things I wish were going on now. Right.

I have a sequence of Vice President Bush sitting up with Speaker Tip O'Neill waiting for Reagan to come out. I think it was 83 State of the Union, and they're laughing it up. And then when Reagan walks into the room, they're both like that. I mean, and John McCain and Bob. and John Kerry together, and they both were in Vietnam, and they were both one Republican, one Democrat. But people were civil to each other.

When I was with particularly like the Gerald Ford area, he and Tip O'Neill would, like, kick each other around politically during the week and play golf on the weekend. So, I mean, that was not unusual. Reagan and Speaker O'Neill got along. Of course, they were both Irish, so you know how that goes. I do. Mika, he will never let me get over what I'm about to say. Okay. Say it.

David is actually one of the greatest historians that this country has ever had because his pictures have captured the essence of history as we have lived it. And it's reality. You see a picture and you can envision everything that happened around that particular era. And one of the elements of David's life is interesting and it indicates what kind of a photographer slash newsman slash historian it is. He covers an Ali Frazier fight, a spectacular fight with a spectacular series of shots about the fight. And the next morning, the morning after the flight, after the fight, he takes a flight to South Vietnam. Oh, wow. And that picture was on the front pages of New York.

Times, which was my 24th birthday that day, March 9th, 1971. You're so young. And just when I give talks, I showed the film clip with this, and you've seen it that he's up and he's gone. And like everybody missed the picture except Elliot Irwood was up in the stands. But it happened so fast. And there's certainly luck involved for sure. But part of the luck is being in the right angle, because other than that.

photographers would have missed it because they've like Ali Liston picture. Somebody said, what's the, have I ever missed photographs? Of course. You know, they're still in my mind. But the worst thing than missing a photograph is being in a famous photograph. And a good example is Neil Leifers famous, you know, Liston on the deck and Ali over him. Right between Ali's legs is Harvey Sharfman, who was the other Sports Illustrated photographer. I just can't even imagine.

So Mike provided the segue there, the fight, but then you went to Vietnam. Speak more about what, you know, as you went through this book and you assembled the collection there. How did that, how were you transported back to those moments? What did you think and feel? Yeah, like this one was taken by my friend Matthew, friend Jolos, now gone, but this is how I covered the war. I think probably for the UPI Fever, I was probably making $120 a week or something. So it wasn't about the money, certainly. But it was really important for me to go to Vietnam.

As a news guy, it was one of the biggest stories of my generation, certainly. And as the class photographer of 1965, I really felt an obligation. And particularly, as I'd mentioned in the talk, four of my friends were killed there before I went over. And I wanted to see what was going on. I never would have forgiven myself if I hadn't gone. David, is there one of your pictures of the presidents where you were allowed in the room, you're allowed to get up close, you're trying to capture them in that moment, that particularly captures for you the essence of one of the people you're photographing?

Well, with President Ford, I had total access. And my photo hero is Yocho Komoto, who was LBJ's White House photographer. He really was the first civilian to have that job, and it's the gold standard for all of us. And this one is a scene from Godfather Six, right? And you can tell the architecture, it's at Century Plaza Hotel, California. And it was Halloween night, 1974. I remember that. It was a fundraiser, but I don't know at that point of Reagan was saying, well, I think I'm,

To me, somebody wrote a captain and said, well, Jerry, you could take everything east of the Mississippi and Nancy and I'll have the rest. Wow. It's what it looks like, you know. That's great stories. But the new photography book, in the room, 60 years on the front lines of history, is available on November 24th. And tickets are on sale now for the accompanying exhibit at the Theater Roosevelt Presidential Library. open now through January 10th, Pulitzer Prize-winning photographer David Hume Kennerley. Thank you very much, and congratulations on this book and what an incredible career.

Coming up, we'll dig into Jonathan Lamere's new reporting on President Trump, considering strikes on Iran ahead of the midterms. Morning Joe, we'll be right back.