Morning Joe - Israel's strike in Doha upends Gaza war ceasefire talk

Episode Date: September 10, 2025

Israel's strike in Doha upends Gaza war ceasefire talk

I'm just, I'm not thrilled about the whole situation. It's not, not a good situation. But I will say this, we want the hostages back. But we are not thrilled about the way that went down today. President Trump yesterday commenting on the Israeli strikes in Qatar, which targeted Hamas leaders, will bring you the latest on the attacks. And look at whether the strikes ended any chance of Gaza peace talks for the foreseeable future. Also ahead a potential major escalation in Eastern Europe as Poland shot down Russian drones that were involved in attacks in Ukraine.

The question is, how will Vladimir Putin respond to the action by a NATO member? Plus, we'll go through the massive revision from the Bureau of Labor Statistics showing the U.S. economy added far fewer jobs from April of last year through March of this year. And we'll dig into the alarming new data on student test scores with some teenagers performing at historic lows. We talked about that the other day, Willie. Math scores, reading scores, just terrible for 12th graders. Just all-time lows. We're going to be talking about that today. Trending in a bad direction already.

And then COVID really gutted the scores even further. It really did. Also, we got a big. big series this weekend. And it is, we're now tied up. Tied up. And you predicted this. At the beginning of the week, you said we're playing the tough teams. You guys are going to be playing the A's and everything else.

And the way it looks, we're going to probably end up, you know, tied going into what's going to have to be the series of the year. Yeah, Yankees and Red Sox now tied both three games behind the Blue Jays. Yankees in the seventh inning last night gave up nine runs before recording it out. Got blown out absolutely by the Tigers. So, yeah, we've got to finish the series with the Tigers, who obviously are a great team, and then go to Fenway this weekend for what will be a pivotal series. Yeah, I mean, you guys have been really hot after this series with us,

had a speed bump last night, but you guys have been playing well. We haven't been playing as well, but you know, I spend all the year telling Jack and everybody else, it's early, it's early, it's early. I looked at the schedule last night. I'm like, whoa. I know.

Oh, my God. There are a couple of series left when this really is a time where every single inning counts, like on whether you're going to get into the playoffs or not. Yeah, they're like two and a half weeks left in the season. And you've got the two of us, Yankees, Red Sox, the Mariners are right there. You've got the guardians and the Rangers lurking. Even the raids are hanging around. Oh, no.

You could go sideways just as quickly as you're comfortable. The rays were on a, and we fear the rays. I mean, I just fear the race. And for good reason, they were on like a eight, nine game. one streak and then had a little bump in the road themselves, but a good team. David, before we introduce everybody else, just the news is just, again, it's, I almost feel like you need to take Israel out of so many of these headlines and just put Netanyahu. Because you look at what Netanyahu is done. You look at his attacks into Syria. You look at his attacks everywhere.

I mean, and this is a guy who is just going to war with absolutely everyone. And, you know, most of the people, a lot of people inside of Israel have been saying for a long time, he will never stop fighting because the second he does, his government folds to the ground. That's the question, and it is about Netanyahu. He has been incredibly aggressive here. There's been moments for ceasefires, and he's scuttled those talks. And yet, critics say he's simply doing this to stay in power. So it was an amazing, unprecedented thing to have Israel strike Doha.

That has not happened. By the way, Doha, we all have had issues with Doha through the years. Make no mistake, though. They, right now, they are a close ally of the Trump administration. And somebody that this administration, past administrations, have depended on to be able to communicate with our enemies. Yes, the U.S. has asked Doha to have Hamas. This was years before October 7th. But those Hamas leaders were meeting to talk about the current Trump administration proposal for a ceasefire.

That's why they were there. And Netanyahu chose to strike them. So let's get into it. We have two more Davids with us, columnist and associate editor for the Washington Post, David Ignatius. The morning of a thousand David's. And senior writer for The Dispatch and a columnist for Bloomberg opinion, David Drucker, is with us. So very unimaginative appearance with names. I like the name so much.

David's a great name. The White House is rebuking Israel for its attack in Qatar's capital. Yesterday, the Israeli military carried out an airstrike in Doha, targeting the leaders of Hamas. While some Hamas members died, the terrorist group says its senior figures were not killed in the attack. A member of Qatar's internal security forces was also killed, and a number of civilians were injured. Qatari officials criticized Israel for the strike, calling it, quote, an attempt to destabilize regional security. The move now hampers the diplomatic efforts to reach a ceasefire in the Gaza war, as Qatar has been a key mediator in the discussions. Israeli Prime Minister Benjian Netanyahu says the strike was in response to Monday's shooting at a bus stop in Jerusalem.

Hamas has claimed responsibility for that attack. Netanyahu also made it clear the strike in Doha was initiated and conducted by Israel. President Trump posted on Truth Social that he was notified of the attack by the U.S. military, not Israel, shortly before it happened and tried to warn Qatar, adding, this does not advance Israel or America's goals. David Ignatius, this is, as we said before, just continued escalation, continued fighting well past the time, again, that military leaders and intel leaders in Israel say that, anything positive can happen as they move forward. We were at diminishing returns a year ago, according to them, not according to Western news outlets, not according to Israel's enemies, according to Israel's military and intel leaders.

Take us, give us the 30,000-foot view, not just of the attack yesterday, but also Netanyahu attacking the new government in Syria, Netanyahu in Iran, Netanyahu all across. the region. It seems that he has decided to conduct an eternal war in Israel all at a time when his political rivals and most foreign policy observers say he's doing it to stay in power. Joe, I think this is about how the war is going to be terminated. Netanyahu increasingly believes that a military end of the war is the only thing that is in his government's interest in Israel's interest, and so the Israeli military is moving forward in Gaza city, in effect,

reinvading parts of Gaza, pushing toward a forced surrender, in effect, of Hamas fighters there. Meanwhile, the United States has continued to pursue negotiations, and what's haunting about the attack yesterday is that these Hamas leaders were gathered to discuss whether to accept what President Trump on Sunday called a final proposal for settling the conflict that would have involved immediate release of all 48 hostages being held in Gaza would have begun the release of a thousand or more Palestinian prisoners in Israel, along with a much greater role for the United States in thinking about the day after. So that's the negotiating plan that was blown out of the building in gutter where these people were meeting. I can't imagine that a negotiating

process will continue. And more of the point, gutter's role as the principal way of passing messages between the U.S. and Israel and Hamas, at least for now, is over. Guttery officials told me that yesterday, and their prime minister, Sheikh Mohammed, said the same thing. So we're entering this end-game period in the Gaza war in which Israel seems to be relying almost entirely now on military power and walking away from what had been a real effort by the United States, by President Trump, to get a final diplomatic solution. So we have the two allies split. Well, and to free the hostages.

That was part of the deal, Joe. The deal that, as I say, was bombed out of existence would have involved immediate moves toward release the ostriches. So David Rode raises the question now, what's left for Netanyahu? If he's literally blown up the diplomatic negotiations, Israel not alone of being skeptical that Hamas is a credible partner in that. We can put that to the side for just a moment. But if not diplomatic negotiations, trying to be brokered by President Trump through Steve Whitkoff, then what are the options, number one. And then the other piece of it is from the American point of view,

what does President Trump do about this? He clearly was not happy yesterday. Yes. So to Bebe and his supporters, there's a military solution. You're just going to wipe out Hamas. You're going to defeat them militarily. The question is there are still two million Palestinians living in Gaza. Where do they go?

How are they governed? And how do you not create another generation of militants? at least, according to, you know, Palestinian health authorities, 60,000 Palestinians have died. You know, the recent reports by, you know, international organizations that there is famine now in Gaza's city. So the idea that you eliminate Hamas and this whole problem goes away is, according to critics, unrealistic. So it's an extraordinary moment. He thinks he can win militarily. And the question is, what does President Trump do now?

This was a defiant move. They did our colleagues. Courtney Kuby and Tom Winter were told that the U.S. wasn't formed about the strike, but there was no request for permission. It just happened. Well, and David Drucker, neither presidents will like the comparison. But Donald Trump and Joe Biden seemed to be in the same exact position with Benjamin Netanyahu. Joe Biden daily would grouse about Netanyahu, would call him, would push him, would cajole him, would threaten him, would do everything he could do to try to get the hostages home, to bring an end to the war, get the hostages home. Now we have Donald Trump, who supposedly was going to be in a position to have an impact on Netanyahu, and things have actually gotten worse. If you look at the reports of famine in Gaza, if you look at just the whole...

horrific treatment of the Palestinians in Gaza. If you look at the attacks on Syria, which was certainly against President Trump's wishes as he tries to build that government into a functioning government, you look at Qatar. Trump and his family are close allies, both politically and personally with Qatar. It's got to be shocking to Donald Trump that he finds himself in the same position as Joe Biden, an American president who Netanyahu constantly thumbs, you know, his nose in his face. Well, it may be, but Benjamin and Netanyahu and Donald Trump have a different relationship at this point than Joe Biden and Benjamin Netanyahu had at the end of the Biden presidency, right? What started out as a very warm, cozy relationship.

sort of built over many years had deteriorated because the Biden administration was willing to put some teeth behind its requests, right, the withholding of certain kinds of weapons, the withholding of certain kinds of diplomatic cover. So far, this is nothing that Trump has been willing to do. And I, you know, I looked at that lengthy truth social post, and I wondered exactly what the president was saying, how much of it was trying to satisfy multiple audiences with different kinds of comments that when you pull them apart and look at them individually, really conflicted with each other. And I think the question is, is Donald Trump actually frustrated with Benjamin Netanyahu,

this may be Ignatio's territory, or is this some good cop, bad cop? There is some diplomatic blowback because of the strike yesterday. But the president has shown an extraordinary amount of patience with Netanyahu's strategy of using the military action to completely decapitate Hamas. I think the broader question for Israel is whether playing this short game, knowing that they've got another three and a half years of Trump and the White House to allow them to accomplish things in the region militarily that the next president, Republican or Democrat, may not allow them or may not go along with.

Because when you look at the politics of Israel right now in the United States, it's much less supportive, broadly speaking, particularly on the left, but even on the right, than it was for so long. Yeah, the support is just absolutely bleeding for Israel in the United States, especially when you look at people under 40, under 45, it's stark. And for those of us who have supported Israel our entire adult lives, it is very concerning what Benjamin Netanyahu and his continued actions are doing. And I must say also, his complete disregard for the hostages, his complete disregard for the hostage families, his complete disregard for the pain that they're enduring, even as Hamas officials rushed up to Qatar based on Donovan. Trump's demand to bring to an end this war and to get the hostages home immediately. And of course, they respond to Donald Trump, do what he says, they go to Qatar, and then they get attacked by Israel. So if you're a member of a hostages family, you have to know that things likely only get worse

from here because of the actions of yesterday. So, David Ignatius, why don't you sort through it for us with Donald Trump on the good cop, bad cop routine and his relationship with Benjamin Netanyahu? Does Donald Trump, does he sort of quietly give a nod and a wink to what Netanyahu's doing, or is he genuinely frustrated? So, Joe, I don't think there's likely to be a real break between Trump and Netanyahu, U.S. and Israel. That would strike me as highly unlikely. But at the same time, I don't think we should see these actions as being in coordination. Trump seemed to me to be genuinely angry at the Israeli strike. Yes, the U.S. got notification, but I understand it came from our own military assets.

that saw Israeli jets in the air in the vicinity of gutter when the U.S. tried to inform the Qatari officials that the Israelis were striking soon. The call, I'm told, happened as explosions outside from the bombs were rocking Doha, the Capitol. I think part of what upsets Trump is that Qatar has acted as an intermediary for Trump, not just, in negotiations with Gaza, but on a number of the other areas where he so fervently wants to be a peacemaker, the deal between Rwanda and the Democratic Republic of the Congo was brokered in part by gutter. The deal between Armenian, Azerbaijan, where they had both leaders of the White House, was brokered partly by gutter. The ceasefire that ended the 12-day war

with Iran, brokered partly by gutter. So there has been a close relationship, especially between Steve Whitkoff, the Trump administration's emissary to the Middle East, and the Qatari officials. So that's part of what got blown up yesterday, and I think Trump was angry about it. In terms of where this goes, Israel is in the driver's seat. Netanyahu has the troops on the ground, and as I said at the beginning, I think he's going for a military solution. That's what Israeli officials believe in. The Israeli army is exhausted, but I think that's the direction that Netanyahu. Now, whatever Trump thinks is going to continue.

So from the war in the Middle East to the war in Eastern Europe, an alarming development overnight. Poland says it has shot down Russian drones that violated the country's airspace earlier today during an attack on Ukraine. It marks the first time Poland, or any NATO member state, has directly engaged Russian assets since Vladimir Putin launched his full-scale invasion in 2022. Poland's military says the drones were aimed at targets in Ukraine, but repeatedly, violated Polish airspace, prompting the response. The incident came just hours after Poland announced it will temporarily close its border with Belarus, starting tomorrow as Belarus and Russia conduct major joint military exercises. So David Rowe, this has been the fear that this war bleeds into further into Eastern Europe beyond the borders of Ukraine, and last night it did

into Poland and rallying a response from NATO. I think Putin is test. testing NATO, and I think Putin is testing Trump. It was 19 different incursions. And then NATO worked as it should. What was interesting here was that the polls, you know, saw these incursions. There were Dutch fighter jets that joined Polish jets. There were German air defenses that were on the ground, and they were armed and ready. So it's a very serious moment. And there was a broader sense, and I'm trying to be fair, there's Trump aides who just felt he would take the presidency and Biden had been so weak, and there would be a strong leader And that is not happening in terms of at least Ukraine and getting Putin to back off and broker a deal.

And you could argue also in terms of Netanyahu. So these are two major foreign policy crises for Trump. And critics will say failures. And David Ignatius, you could argue the situation in Ukraine is only getting worse. It continues. And now this incursion into Polish airspace. So the Polish Prime Minister Donald Tusk described. described this drone attack as a large-scale provocation by Russia, and I think that's exactly

what it was. Russia has been increasingly pushing at the edges. There have been other drone over flights prior to overnight. The polls have mostly let them go. But this time they shot down some of the Russian drones, and they responded, as David Rhodes said, in coordination with NATO. This was treated as an attack on a NATO state. We'll see what comes next, but it's obvious that Russia is pushing the boundaries, not just in Ukraine, where it's launching 800, 900 drones a night plus ballistic missiles, but now spreading the war to other parts of Europe. Putin thinks he's on a role and somebody's going to have to stop him in a more dramatic way, I think, than happened last night. What are hearing from the White House?

I mean, again, here we are how many weeks past Anchorage, where at least two weeks past when Donald Trump said he, He was going to give Putin two weeks, and things just keep getting worse. The attacks keep getting more harsh from Russia to Ukraine, the killing of Ukrainian citizens, of children, of grandmothers now attacking Poland, or at least having drones going over the airspace. And as both you and David Rhodes said, purposely provoking NATO. What are you hearing from the White House? When will there be a response to all of this? what i'm hearing from the white house is uh uncertainty uh vague threats of of further uh sanctions against

russia but but no uh decisive action um donald trump had the wrong theory of the case i mean he said repeatedly and he must have must have really believed it that it would be easy to solve this war his friend putin would see that with donald trump in the white house it was time to end the war. The opposite has happened. Vladimir Putin does not have an interest in ending the war. He has an interest in winning the war. And I don't think the Trump White House has yet fully accommodated to that reality. The Ukrainians have. They're preparing to fight on with help from Europe, if not the United States. But this is really crunch time for the administration. They either completely walk away and say, that's it. It's up to Europe. Or they get more serious about trying

to find ways to help. If they walk away, then Donald Trump will be remembered as the man who not only lost Ukraine, but lost Central Europe and possibly Poland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, all those. Donald Trump will be remembered as the man who reconstituted the Soviet Union, the old Russian Empire, if he doesn't push back. Now, he said he's going to push back and not allow that to happen. But, you know, it has been several weeks right now. There's also another thing that just has to be said right now.

The United States Senate could pass sanctions, and they could push sanctions with a number of votes that they have and override any veto from the White House. At some point, while Ukrainians die, while Europe is threatened by invading Russian forces, by invading Russian forces, while Europe is threatened, they sit on their hands. say, well, we're just going to wait to see what somebody else is. No, they have. They're the first branch. They're the Article I branch. They have the power to stop the Russian invaders. They have the power to protect Western civilization. They have the power to protect democracy and freedom, not only in Ukraine, but in the Baltics and all across eastern and central Europe. They have the votes. If the president doesn't want to move on this, the Senate has to move on this, are the blood of all of these Ukrainians will be on their hands. And yes, yes, the defeat

of a country that's striving to become a Western democracy that's reaching their arms out towards us for the freedom that Ronald Reagan and every president before him from Harry Truman to Ronald Reagan fought for to give them the freedom when we won the Cold War. They can't sit on their hands anymore. If the president won't move, then the United States Senate needs to move. The Washington Post's David Ignatius and NBC's David Road. Thank you both very much for being on this morning. And still ahead of morning, Joe, Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnik is now suggesting the federal

government should get some of the money universities make from their hands. Seriously? Why don't you guys just get a statue of Vladimir Lenin and like put it in Lafayette Park? We'll play for you those comments.

This is just pure rank socialism. Plus we'll break down the revised jobs data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics and dig into what this says about the state of the U.S. economy and to remind The Morning Joe podcast available each weekday featuring our full conversations and analysis.

You can listen wherever you get your podcasts. By the way, we'll be right back. We listen to the podcast, really, the dog track. David Road while he's playing handball with, you know, he's a big specks. He's got the big specks and he's got the headband, the red and blue headband. He's playing handball. He's listening to Morning Joe podcast. Furry headphones.

Yeah. look at this that's a beautiful shot of new york city of course everybody new york's talking about two things howard stern oh my gosh that was amazing wasn't that amazing that was so funny wasn't that uh-huh it was so well done good bit i mean Howard wrote i found out Howard wrote the whole thing oh my god and he actually not he wrote the whole thing like he wrote the whole thing like it's so funny when when news broke and everybody's saying howards too woke howards to this how they're firing howard it's funny beth his wife reportedly get really upset and it's like why are people lying about about you howard and she said he smiled

he said we're going to have some fun with us and so he wrote the whole thing gave it to Andy Cohen, and he said, okay, we want to put up Andy 100. We want to screen him. And he wrote the entire thing about Andy going, I understand my demographic is not your demographic, but I'm going to win you over. And as evidence of that, this was the greatest thing. As evidence of that, our first guest is going to be Patty Lepone. You know, she doesn't give an issue either.

And she tells it. He mailed it. Just like Howard. You know, you know, you know, people were like, what? Andy says he was so in character that he could have gone on for hours. Yeah. Yeah. And he was good. Andy was so good. Andy sold it.

He sold it. What was it? A Picked it up and said Stern. A bunch of people picked it up. Well, listen, the Associated Press picked it up. Yeah. Yeah. The AP, which by the way,

not knocking the AP, but hey, better to actually get it right than be first. And that's what, that's just where we've been for the past decade or so. But man, just needed to wait 20 minutes. I will say, Andy did a great job, but about 10 seconds ago, oh, this is a good bit. Oh, you did. Yeah. There's no way it's going like this. You're knowledgeable.

Maybe I know Andy too well. And Howard wouldn't let it end that way. Okay, so I actually went on Andy Cohen's radio show on Sirius XM right after it happened. We talked about it Well, let's hear that Were you all fooled yesterday? Oh my gosh It crossed the AP

Which is wild I'm dying reported that I was Taking over for hours Yes And so I sent it to my producers Right away We have a producer's text chain

They always double check stuff Right But if the AP is I mean It was a little weird I have to tell you They kind of went all the way I mean

You went on for about 20 minutes right? Yes. But then it ended. Yeah. And they did a reveal. They missed that part. Yes.

Yeah. Okay, that's a problem. Right. But it was so, you were so good. Your reaction once y'all figured out it was not true. It was very funny. Oh my God.

Wait. First of all, I need to know. How did like, who, who approached you to do this? Did like Howard? Howard first. Gary did first. Okay.

A couple weeks ago. He goes, we want to do this thing. I said, yeah, I'm in. Great. Yeah. He goes, you need to make it real. I texted Howard. I said, I'm very excited about it.

Then he called. And he was like, look, I want, I said, John's coming with me. He said, oh, I'm so glad John's coming. He goes, you guys have to really. I said, well, let me just say, if this were to happen, I would be so excited, but also it would be so awkward. Right. Doing this. He said, that's exactly your tone.

Yes. Do it. Yeah. And did you want a break at any point? No, no. Oh, we could have kept going for two hours. You know what? They were staring at us, too.

there was I wouldn't want to stop down right yeah could you see Howard as this was happening no Howard was not there that would have not there that would have yeah that would have been a lot yes you know Howard's wife Beth gave me my cat meatball oh really yes North Shore animals has six toes yeah yeah and I hold them every morning when I'm getting ready for work oh meatball I love meatball yeah so anyway it always ends at meatball there's me But as we were all talking, a lot of prominent news organizations picked this up. Yeah. I will tell you, one person, when Mika sent that over, who literally looked at any tight back,

he goes, this is bullshit. Yeah. Alex, Alex, so Alex, so while the AP, and I will say a lot of other news organizations, Mika sent that and said Howard shows over, Alex says, no, no, no, no, no, we're going to sit on this. I don't believe it. That's pretty good. You and you and Alex had the BS. You had the Howard detector.

I watched Howard and listened to my whole life and know Andy pretty well. I crossed on Instagram and I was like, oh, my gosh. And then the Patty Lepone and the caller who called in, outrage felt a little too. A little too much. And I went, wait a minute. But certainly my first instinct was, what? Yeah, but you know the players too well.

And Alex, you, I, you, I, you, you, obviously a huge Broadway fan. A few people know, Alex Gorson, the theater major at Cornell. But was it, was it the Patty Lepone reference that gave it away for you, for you to tell Mika? Because he said, do not say this on the air.

I don't care if it's the Associated Press. Well, Patty's not an easy interview, so that might have been a tell. But this is a team effort. I got to put it, I mean, T.J. is big Stern fan. Dan, we all, our Danors got up. So we pause for a second there. Yeah, we have a lot of huge Stern fans here. So obviously, yeah, the BS detector went up.

So what happens at the Associated Press after this happened? Oh, no. Yeah, I mean, you work there forever. I've always, I've always, I've always told people like, you know, hey, how were the reporters? They were like, they're easy. They were great friends. But I'd see, like, Alan Fram coming and who was the AP Capitol Hill reporter, I literally, if I saw him come into the Speaker's lobby, I would turn it. around and run as fast as possible because they're just tough and tough and good great no tough great reporters no doubt uh we saw it we mika and i were here on set we saw it evolve in real time they went with it they even put a news alert out i mean they were not the only organization to get it to be to be sure uh and then they clearly went through it and they rewrote it and they look they owned it the correction they updated the story they put a correction at the end

which is what you need to do you have to tell your readers hey we got this one wrong Yeah, Variety broke it. I think Variety broke it first, the right way, saying, no, no, no, this is all a gag. Anyway, so really quickly, Willie and I were talking about, I mean, what everybody's going to call the race, the pennant race of our time for wildcard to see who's the fourth or fifth best team in the American League. But we had a kid pitch last night. We have seen him up. We have seen the future, and his name is, apparently, I looked it up, Connolly Early,

who pitched great last night. They've had a bunch of kids, Mike, who tried to step in. Red Sox rotation, a little thin in the four or five slots. What about the one who's his dad? Okay, so Mika loves Tully, who looks like he's 48 years old. And everybody says he's 22 with the mustache. He says he's 22, but Mika calls, I like dad. He's good.

And I like how excited he gets when. things go well. He starts getting all really, like, dysregulated. But early, in a positive way, but early, really great last night, this kid. Just called up. He kept me up to 1 o'clock in the morning. Wow. Oh, my God. Lamere, you didn't. I know. I saw the first. And today with the prize we got back in the Devers' trades, pictured Harrison from the Giants. Apparently he's going to pitch part of today's game as well.

But there we see it. Yankees and Red Sox tied. The Yankees had a tough seventh inning last night. happened to be watching that live. I'm sure. Delightful. I was, yeah, the tears wiped them up. That was nine runs before they reported an hour. The sarcastic cheer, the sarcastic cheer from the crowd when they finally got the first out, that's my new ringtone.

They talk about the nightmare seven, but I will say, though, Willie, it is with the Yankees and the Red Sox tied. I mean, this is the greatest rivalry in baseball, tied going into the final week and a half and having a series up at Finway, this is really, this is what fans, baseball fans dream of up and down the East Coast every year. Go back to February, spring training, if you could have said mid-September, Fenway, Yankees, Red Sox tied, of course we'd like to be tied for first place, but we're in the playoff hunt, Mike. This is what you want, this is what I want, this is what fans of both teams want.

We're both in it, and that series could swing the whole thing one way or another. Well, the thing is, it's great for baseball. I mean, it is the oldest rivalry. It's the most intense rivalry in Major League Baseball, and you're going to see it winding down to the last week. We can put this down now. This is good background music. This great wallpaper.

Mike, can you tell me something? This is Alex, for me. This is yet another season where maybe the Brewers win 100 games, but probably not. But you always have one, two, three teams that win 100 games every year. That's not happening anymore. Why? Well, I think a lot of reasons why. First of all, some of the travel schedules, the big team, like Seattle has a good team,

their travel schedule is a nightmare. Oh, brutal. The pitching, the, what's happened to pitchers in Major League Baseball over the course of the last six or seven years is really extraordinary. More pitchers are going out now for surgery at younger and younger ages, and they can't figure out why. How many pitchers do the, and last night. I was up with you in the listing of the ninth inning,

and they went down the list of all of the Red Sox pitchers that are on the IL. They named about seven of our people who did starters. Every team. Is that every team? Almost every team. And is that velocity? Yes. Pedro Martinez is an interesting theory about it.

He thinks it's because they tighten their grip on the baseball. You tighten your grip on the baseball, and it shoots right through your elbow. And if you do it continually, which major league pitchers do it. every fourth the fifth day, you're eventually going to have surgery. It's the tight grip to get more spin on the ball, and then it's the emphasis on just full-out velocity every time. And it's an epidemic, and there's some talk that they're going to have to try to figure out a way to incentivize pitchers to not do that all the time because his injuries keep coming.

I mean, one of the greatest pitchers of our generation, Greg Maddox, pitched 88-mile-an-hour fastball. Yeah, it's about. And he knew where to play it. When's dad coming back? Dad's pitching the night. this afternoon. Oh, I'm excited. This afternoon. All right. After he, what, drops off the kids at school, goes to Pitch.

All right. Coming up. And works a second job because one's going to be going to junior college next year. Yeah. Duncan Donuts, I think it is. All right. He does. He does. I will say, Mika walks in, everybody's going, a young, 22-year-old upstart, and Mika walks in. And she goes, who's dad? He's fun to watch him. I like him. All right, coming up, some middle and high school students are performing at all time.

lows in core subjects. Well, and what makes this statistics so disturbing is I haven't been in high school in years, so I'm not even there to bring the numbers down. We'll be joined by a Harvard education professor who says this trend predates the COVID pandemic. That conversation is straight ahead on Morning Joe. Welcome back. It's 44 past the hour. The National Assessment of Education Progress is giving a grim outlook for eighth and twelfth grade students in its first report card since before. the COVID-19 pandemic. Data shows test scores dropped to the lowest in decades for reading in math among high school

seniors. 45% scored below the basic level in math, the lowest since 2005. 32% scored below the basic level in reading, the lowest since the exam began in 1992. Declines in eighth grade science are also ringing alarm bells, with 38% scoring the below the basic level signaling some students would not be able to recall simple science facts such as plants needing sunlight to grow. I mean, Willie, this is obviously just a grave challenge. And we've seen these numbers going down for quite some time.

This is a low since 2005. Of course, smartphones introduced in 2010 or 11. I'm not blaming it just on smartphones, but it's hard not to find a social, a social, marking, a social reading, a social meter that hasn't gone down since smartphones were introduced to our children. Anxiety, depression, attention deficit, would obviously affect studying and all the kinds of things in school. Let's get some more answers from the Vice Chair of the National Assessment Governing Board. Dr. Martin West, he's also the academic dean at the Harvard Graduate School of Education. Dr. West, thanks for being with us. So the numbers, the headline alarming, certainly,

but as you point out, it's not just COVID. This trend began long before COVID. As you look at the total picture, what are the factors driving this decline in test scores? Well, the nation's report card is designed to tell us what's happening to American students' achievement, not necessarily why. But I do think the patterns that we see can guide our search for explanations.

You're right that the declines really began in the middle of the 2010, so we should be looking for factors that predate the people, pandemic and not focusing only on those disruptions. We know that the declines have been across all subjects, not just reading in math, but also science, civics, and U.S. history. And we know they've been particularly severe for low-performing students, those in the bottom 25% of the distribution. Meanwhile, students in the top 10% are scoring just about as well as ever. So as I look for an explanation that sort of checks all those boxes, I think you are right to be talking about the role of smartphones, the emergence of social media targeting youth, and the distraction that

they've become for American students over the past decade or so. So, Dr. West, what other trends are we seeing here? Is it about geography? Is it about class? Is it about gender? Other social issues that might be contributing to these students failing? I mean, I think the real pattern, the one that we've been trying to call people's attention to, is this fanning out of achievement, the growing divide between our highest performing students in the lowest performing. And, you know, that is what is driving. The declining average scores are those drops at the bottom. And this means that we have an increasing share of students

who are really graduating from high school very ill-prepared for not just college, but really the world of work. You know, Mike, we were talking off-camera about many of the challenges that these children are facing. And of course, we were talking about smart funds. You also brought up, though, post 2008, the Great Recession. You talked about the our economy blowing apart, the problems with COVID. A lot of times you have two parents that are working around the clock, trying to keep jobs. A lot of times you have single parents trying to do everything they can do. And, you know, we've all seen it.

Sometimes it takes two parents to say, put down the smartphone, study, put down your iPhone. We're eating. where at a restaurant put down your phone put it in your pocket i mean it is you know when you have people are struggling economically a single parent household yeah don't have two adults that are looking at the children i mean it is very hard and yeah i am going back to smartphones because it's hard not to blame a technology that studies have shown reduces the attention span not just of children but also of adults to like, you know, 14 seconds. They're just constantly, they can't keep a thought.

They're constantly, the brains are constantly moving. They can't read. I've heard my children, a lot of their friends, it's almost impossible for them to sit down and read a book now. Do they have a book? Do they actually have a physical book? Only the ones that are assigned. Are they trying to read on an iPad?

Well, they're not trying to read. They're probably going to AI. to say what's weathering heights about? I mean, you've got all of what you just said is, I think, accurate, especially home life. You've got two working parents in many situations. Maybe one of them, the company they work for is downsizing or moving to another state. So there's a disruption in the daily life of a parent, child, interest. And Dr. West, I would like to ask you this question.

So when you talk about these scores and you look at them, they're down in science, they're down in math, they're down in reading. What is wrong with the American educational system? That's pretty much across the board. Every subject, important subject taught in schools, the scores are way down. Well, I think you all are right to be talking about multiple factors that could be driving this. You point to the importance of family structure. We know that that's a very important contributor to student success.

You talk about the increasing distraction from technology. And the question is, why are schools not able to respond to these potentially growing challenges? I think it is fair to say that we've seen a diminished emphasis on accountability for results in the American education system at all levels since around 2015. You know, there was a period not too long ago from the mid-1990s through about 2015, where scores on the National Assessment of Educational Progress were steadily rising. and the fastest progress was actually being made by our lowest achieving students, exactly the opposite of the pattern that we see right now. And that was a period where, you know, there was a bipartisan emphasis on standards and holding schools accountable for results.

And it was producing steady progress, not as fast as we would have wanted, but, you know, progress nonetheless. And in education, oftentimes we want to be searching for the shiny new thing, chasing fads. but maybe right now we need to look at what has worked in the past. Dr. Martin West, thank you very much. We will hopefully be talking about this a lot more. There are a lot of different angles to this story.

Still ahead, the Trump administration has been criticized for taking stakes in Intel and a cut of Nvidia's chip sales in China. But Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnik says the administration is now eyeing other sources of revenue. Mike Allen joins us to explain next on Morning Joe.