Morning Joe - "It's a Story of Hubris": NYT journalists Maggie Habeman and Jonathan Swan on their new book analyzing Trump's second term, "Regime Change"

Episode Date: June 23, 2026

June 23, 2026 - 7am: NYT journalists Maggie Habeman and Jonathan Swan join for a deep discussion on their new book analyzing the first year Trump's second term, 'Regime Change'   To listen to this show and other MS podcasts without ads, sign up for MS NOW Premium on Apple Podcasts. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Well, you can't see the algae from this view. It still looks beautiful from above. 718 in the morning in Washington. There's a big like ripped slit through that. It's a gouge. We need to get a little closer look at it. 3,486 hours. Ripping open to the bottom of the...

We are back talking about regime change inside the imperial presidency of Donald Trump with Maggie Haberman and Jonathan Swan. Maggie, there's been so much reporting out of the book already about the Trump administration's handling of the Epstein files, but I think it's worth kind of digging into it a little bit for people who haven't fully read through it. And the fact that the Situation Room was used as a place to have these highly sensitive meetings about how to handle this issue. And you get into a very specific meeting in July 17, 2025, Trump officials getting into that secure bunker. The level of panic that they had, because Donald Trump did not want the word Epstein ever mentioned again around

the White House. How did that meeting? play out and who were the leading voices saying, we got to put this stuff out, and who are the one saying, we can't, he won't let us. Yeah, so just to set the scene here a bit, Willie, what happens shortly before, like two days, I think, or four days before that meeting is they passed his one big legislative accomplishment last year, which was the one big beautiful bill. They put all of their political capital into getting this done. And can they go out and start talking about that, the White House comms team or senior staff? No, this is where the energy goes, which is dealing with a crisis that has now exploded, A, it was self-inflicted,

B, it became much worse after the DOJ and the FBI released this unsigned memo. It just had their insignias on it. Initially, some draft didn't even have that, according to our reporting, because nobody really wanted their name on this. And this was essentially something that some of the hardest line voices in Trump's government who had spent years talking about Epstein and talking about Trump to be. By the way, the unsigned memo said they weren't going to release anything else. Yes. It said that, well, it said they had looked.

They hadn't actually released really anything yet other than Pam Bondi's binders, which was months earlier. And we can talk about that as how it was huge. Yeah, as a huge. It was almost all old information. But that was seen as the original blunder inside the White House. There were people in Trump's government who had spent years talking publicly about how there is this cabal of predators and the government was sitting on this.

And to be clear, there is a multi-administration failure in terms of dealing with the Epstein crisis. That's definitely true, or dealing with Epstein and prosecution. But they get in power, and they're serving a president who actually does not want to talk about this at all. He has been told that his name is in some of the files, that it's brief mentions. DOJ didn't exactly know what was there in full. They put out something to satisfy the base. It satisfies no one. It's got a missing minute from a.

Epstein's prison cell in the video that they put out along with it. So this meeting comes to to try to figure out how to deal with something they cannot get away with and that Donald Trump keeps getting asked about it. The problem for them is the president doesn't want to hear Epstein. He would snap the name. He would snap at anybody who would bring it up. And so they have that several meetings in the situation room. We capture just a few of them. And the ones that we capture were almost exclusively about how to handle this in a way. that deals with their boss. That protects him?

That doesn't stoke further conspiracies, that doesn't hurt themselves, frankly, politically. So we describe, you know, this is a huge meeting, the first one that we describe. It's the vice president. It is the White House Chief of Staff. It is the Attorney General, the Deputy Attorney General, White House Counsel, Coms officials.

I mean, the list is long. And they are talking about what to do now because this memo has just created such a stir. And one of the officials there, Deputy White House Chief of Staff, James Blair, says something to be effective with all due respect. It's the calm strategy of this group that got us into this. And, you know, there needs to be an actual plan here on how to get out of this. J.D. Vance, the whole time, wanted to release everything, including unsubstantiated information, including unsubstantiated information about Donald Trump, which was... Abusing a woman.

There was a secondhand allegation that was... I want to be clear. Already public. Right. And I would be clear, too, that I'm not saying he abused a woman. What I'm saying is what shocked me was that J.D. Vance had this unsubstantiated charge of Donald Trump abusing a minor and told Susie Wildes in the group in your book, told Susie Wilson, oh, we need to release it all.

He'll be fine releasing it. And Susie Walser, no, he won't. And that's just one of the moments of many where J.D. Vance seems to be strangely disconnected from Donald Trump inside this book. Well, just one thing. It was that specific incident, which, again, was a secondhand allegation that was never, and it was already. Never proved. Yes. And the person who it was about never said it themselves. And it was public already.

It was just, do you put it on this big library of information? And this person, as far as we know, was not a minor. We don't know that. But I don't know when we can. But again, J.D. Vant to say you put it out. Yes. And there's just nothing that any of us know about Donald Trump that would suggest that he would want to steer people's attention to it.

There certainly were, everything is not black and white in all of this. There were, as I said, a number of meetings. There were people who were concerned about the victims. Pam Bondi was concerned about people being aware of how much child pornography there was. There were people in the White House who were concerned about not hurting the victims more. But that was not the focus, primary focus, of these meetings. This was about how to deal with a political crisis. And they were holding these meetings in the White House situation room to avoid leaks. That was the point. In spaces where wars are planned and executed and

their bin Laden raid and everything else. Jonathan, this is, the Epstein files are foundational to much of the MAGA base to conservative voters to podcasters. They've been talking about it for years and years and years. So with that in mind, and I know this isn't a book about the Epstein files, there's a lot more to be said, but what is your sense of why Donald Trump is so uniquely sensitive about the Epstein files, why he was pushing not to have this stuff release? Why, as Maggie says, you couldn't even mention the word Epstein in the White House, certainly around him. What is it about him and the Epstein files. I think there's an obvious reason and a less obvious reason. The obvious reason is he's mentioned, as the New York Times said, more than 38,000 times in the Epstein files, him, his family,

Maralago. Jeffrey Epstein's obviously, you know, one of the most notorious pedophiles, sex predators is a monster of history. Trump fell out with him. Various reasons have been given, but he obviously had a very close friendship with him, and there's numerous photos of them hanging out together. videos of them partying together. So it's not a good look to state the very minimum. There's another reason which I think is also very powerful, which is Trump is so used to being able to tell the base, do this, think this, here's where I need you to run and the base runs. And this was the first time I've seen. I could make an argument a little bit on the vaccines. I saw him get booed when he praised COVID vaccines.

That was a moment when he was out with AIDS. But this was a time when he was saying, guys, don't look over here. Look over here. This is a hoax. And they just said, no, we're going to keep looking over here. And I think that that was hugely frustrating that they were not marching in line

and that this just kept going. I mean, again, there are a number of people at a senior level who underestimated this as a political crisis in the way. White House who thought, and you know, to be fair, they've lived through Access Hollywood. You go through the list of crises they've dealt with with Trump and he's survived all of them. And for some reason, this was one that really stuck. And we obtained in the book some private polling and focus groups that Trump's team has done. And it's really profound

when you see it. Because this is March this year, more than a year after they first started trying to deal with Epstein, it's cutting through. It's really cutting through in the focus groups. People are bringing it up. And in the memo, the confidential memo that his pollster circulated to a small group of them, it identifies Epstein as a huge problem. A bigger problem than, was it bigger than crime? It was crime, safety, data centers. I mean, there were, there was some of the most salient political issues in the country, and Epstein was above them. So this was, and, you know, You guys covered this very intensely, and everyone did, we did as well. When Biden withdrew from Afghanistan, you could almost plot his polling from that.

It's not that dissimilar. One of Trump's advisors actually made this point. The summer of last year, the Epstein crisis actually, in retrospect, was a turning point. You do start to see him losing altitude from that point. And, Maggie, I want to ask you about the idea of Trump thinking about his own mortality. Obviously, there's, which is an animating theme in this book, too. There's Butler, of course, but also the Charlie Kirk assassination. And that's some new reporting here that we've ever heard before.

How he sort of learned about that, frankly, flashing anger at Cash Patel about that investigation, but how that seems to be almost an accelerant, the threats on his life and the threats he perceived to be out there, the ballroom, yes, but a lot of what he's trying to do. Yeah, there's no question that the security aspect of this comes up over and over and over again in the book, in our reporting has for some time. The day that Charlie Kirk was killed was, it was not a turning point for this White House, but it was something of a demarcation line.

So in our reporting, he hears about it because his son, Baron, calls and was very upset watching what had happened. And it is a reminder, A, of mortality, it is a reminder of everything that people see in the lives of elected officials. And this White House, many of whose members were close with Charlie Kirk, are learning about it in real time. There's a signal group chain where people are texting, you know, Charlie, are you okay?

Because they've heard there's a shooting. And he doesn't respond. And Trump is sort of spending the day absorbing it. But his impulse was we are going to, and the impulse of others in the White House, to be clear. And it was not just Stephen Miller, which is obviously. in the view on that one. There were others who really agreed that it's time to crack down on the left. We have to actually start going after people who are going after us. It emphasized, putting that part aside about whether they were focused on the people who are actually,

you know, going after Trump and his advisors or not. It escalated this siege mentality that they are under. There are a number of AIDS who have had real threats against them. There are others where we're less clear about what the security threats are. But you are talking about an administration where so many of these officials are living on military bases now. There are so many officials who have secret service details, who have intense security. And that just separates them further from the city they're living in and from the government that they're serving and the public that they're serving. And so it was another point in our reporting. And again, we spend a fair amount of time on this.

on how it becomes an escalation that in some ways helps get closer to what we saw in Minneapolis later in the year. All right, we're going to continue our deep dive into the new book, Regime Change, inside the Imperial Presidency of Donald Trump with Maggie Haberman and Jonathan Swan in just a moment. We're going to take a look after the break at some of the other players that you cover in Trump's orbit. We'll be right back. back with Maggie and Jonathan. It's very interesting people are trying to figure out who's going to replace Donald Trump, who's his heir apparent.

Is it going to be J.D.? Is it going to be Marco? You read this book, and he seems to have a great relationship with Marco Rubio. There's this moment where somebody's looking at all the gold that he's fixed all over the Oval Office. I said, aren't you worried? The next president's going to take it all down. He said, nah, Cubans love gold. Who could he be talking about?

Who could he be talking about? But you all suggest he's really comfortable with Marco in a way. He's not comfortable with J.D. He has personal chemistry with Marco Rubio in a way, which is fascinating given where they were in 2016 and what we all watched. And he does... Why is that? Do you know? Why?

I don't think I can point to it, but specifically, but for whatever reason, there is just more of a specific rapport. He does like Vance, to be clear. They do get along. They do have a good relationship. But for whatever reason, in this iteration, he and Rubio have done well together. We have this scene in the book where at a dinner a few months after Trump and Rupert Murdoch go to war essentially over an Epstein-related story in the Wall Street Journal that a phalanx of

Murdoch world people and Murdoch come to dinner at the White House. So this is mid-October. And it was seen widely inside the administration as something of an effort at a thaw. But in this, it's a big dinner. There were a lot of people there. And J.D. Vance was there. His wife was there. Marka Rubio was there.

And a bunch of other people. And in front of the two of them, Trump starts engaging in one of his favorite games that he has always done, which is essentially turned people into contestants. And he asks Murdoch, who everyone at the table knew, did not want Vance to be the vice. presidential choice. He says, what do you think of JD? And he says, well, you know, JD has, what is it, the potential to be great, I think is the quote? And then, you know, sort of an uncomfortable laugh. And J.D. says, you know, thanks a lot. And Trump says, what do you think of Marco? And Murdoch just sort of cold as ice, which for those of us who have worked for Murdoch publication know well is his way, he just says, you know, Marco is brilliant.

And it left a very clear impression of a where Murdoch would like to be, but it was a reminder of what Trump puts people through in order to earn his favor. And that was certainly, we didn't end up putting this in the book. And there was a lot of reporting on it at the time, too. But what he put everyone through in terms of the Veepstakes, the people who wanted to be on the ticket with him, was a really extended version of this. And so I anticipate we will see a lot of this going forward.

we also don't have anything in our reporting that suggests that Rubio is actually running. He's not taking steps that one would take. Doesn't mean he won't. He could obviously do that fairly quickly. But for now, there's no reason to think that Vance is not the frontrunner. And that if Vance remains the front runner, that Trump will go along and not undercut him completely. Before we went to the break, you were leading up to a major inflection point in this presidency. And that would be the killing of Renee Good and Alex Pretty.

And there are still a lot of questions as to where those investigations stand as the government took them over. And I believe at least one of those ICE officers are back at work. Do process for migrants or for people in American soil or U.S. citizens getting swept up? Children being held in detention centers for many, many months people, U.S. citizens, people who are undocumented. And many are asking, how could this happen? How could so much of our laws and policies and regulations break down? And I think you attempt to answer this question in this book on many levels, whether it's immigration or how we're treating Ukraine. Explain how so much can happen without it being answered.

And I know the courts are pushing back. But still, it's almost like you can't keep up with all the, just on immigration alone, with case by case by case by case. by case of cruelty and illegal actions. Well, so what you're talking about is accountability and mechanisms to stop them acting. And I think what you raise is really important in terms of the facts on the ground outpacing the legal system. The legal system was not built for someone like Donald Trump. It just wasn't. Take the early days of Doge.

They shut down USAID. a whole agency established in statute by Congress for foreign aid. And by the time the system kind of woke up and put its socks on, it's over. It's done. That is one thing. If you look

the first six months, you do have the courts, universities, everybody's scrambling. It seems as you get to the second half of your book, the system has awakened. The judges have awakened. They are sort of their front foot now. Yes, but. So one thing we have in the book is, you know, last spring, Trump and Stephen Miller explicitly, Trump in a more of alluding way, talked about contemplating suspending habeas corpus, right? Habious rights, the rights to appeal your detention. If you get

locked up, you know, some right to appeal it. They want to get rid of that for illegal immigrants. and we we thought this is a really important, I mean, you're talking about sort of one of the most foundational rights you have. As you say, a concept that goes back before the magnified. Predates the Constitution. This is one of the most fundamental. When you get locked up, you get to appeal, that's one of the most fundamental rights. This was far more seriously entertained than people realized at the time. And we obtained secret memos that the staff secretary of the White House, Will Scharf,

wrote to Susie Wiles in very loyally language, but basically laying out why this was a line that the White House should not cross. But so they don't suspend habeas corpus. But in a certain way, like, habeas rights have been suspended because there are, you know, thousands of immigrants who are in detention centres waiting, who are not getting hearings and languishing there. And we have, you know, there are people who are charting this other reporters who are charting this more rigorous, you know, in a more comprehensive way than we are, but they're

ignoring court orders. And so at a lower court level, they're actually not obeying all these court orders. So, yeah. Even in an hour, we've only scratched the surface here, Maguire, there's so much, so much in here. Fascinating details about Scott Bessent, who's a clear anger problems with a physical fight with Elon Musk outside the Oval Office, to which Trump said, ooh, who won when he was told about it. But just want to ask you, because you understand Trump so well where you think this heads after this chapter, which is here comes November. Democrats have an expectation to at least win the House. Maybe they can eke out the Senate.

It seems less likely. But what are the second two years of a Trump administration where he doesn't have Mike Johnson potentially to push around anymore? What does that look like? We talk about this a lot. And the answer is, who knows? I mean, normally at this point, in a midterm cycle, during a, you know, we're going to be a midterm cycle during a presidential term, especially a lame duck term, which this is for Trump, although he is going to do everything he can not to be seen that way, you can sort of see the contours of where something is going to head. You certainly could in term one. This is the trajectory, and it's actually a little worse for him now, is very similar to 2018. But in 2019, 2020, obviously there was an impeachment. There were a number of efforts at oversight. The administration slow off some of that. I don't think we know what it's,

looks like when, let's just say that Democrats hypothetically take both chambers. I don't think we know what it looks like when an entire administration potentially just doesn't respond to subpoenas, doesn't attend hearings, or invokes, you know, the fifth, or says, I don't recall over and over again. And then Congress refers, you know, let's say some kind of a contempt of Congress finding to the DOJ. I don't think Attorney General Todd Blanche or... You don't think you'd enthusiastic put them it up and prosecute. Right. Or Attorney General, Janine Piro, if we're looking down the list of other people who the president could name, I don't see that being a realistic path. There's no Congress jail

where Congress is going to go arrest people and put them in prison. So I don't know where this goes. But what we do know post-January 6, 2021, is that when Trump feels cornered and out of options, a lot is on the table. So, again, I don't know what this will look like. Who knows? But the future is obviously not wise to predict. But the one thing I do feel comfortable saying is it won't look like what we have seen before. Yeah.

Yeah. The new book is regime change inside the imperial presidency of Donald Trump. It is available now. co-authors, New York Times White House correspondent Maggie Haberman, and New York Times White House reporter Jonathan Swan. Thank you both. I know you're headed out on book tour, but we'll get you back, at least one of you later this week.

And thank you so much for sharing. Thanks for having us. Thank you so much. Coming up, the Kennedy Center says it removed President Trump's name from the facade of the building, but tarps and scaffolding have been in place. Is that vandals? Have been in place from more than a week now.

We'll have the latest on the, the cover-up straight ahead on morning joe. I will give jadey vans a chance these are the kind of negotiations that will require steely-eyed focus on the american side and i'll bet jd vance has just the right touch of gravitas and tact i have joked that i have two very very important people in my life in indian and a pakistani the indian is my wife and the pakistani is field marshal waneer Marshall Munir walk into a bar. It's a risky move on Trump's part,

given that the first time he sent J.D. Vance overseas, J.D. Vance killed Pope Francis. Pope Francis lived in leper colonies, in, as went through so much in his life, survived, spent 10 minutes with J.D. Vand. And went, check please. I'm out. Oh, gosh.

All right. Still ahead on morning, Joe. We'll bring you the latest on the negotiations to end the war with Iran, as Vice President J.D. Vance now says Iran agreed to allow international inspections of its nuclear program, which was part of President Obama's deal that Trump terminated. Plus, we'll preview President Trump's trip today to Pennsylvania, his first public event since he signed the memorandum of understanding with Iran. Morning Joe is coming right back.