Morning Joe - Listen to “The Blueprint with Jen Psaki”

Episode Date: February 10, 2025

On a new podcast series, “The Blueprint with Jen Psaki,” host Jen Psaki dives into two crucial questions: where do Democrats stand in this moment? And how can they win again?Listen to the full first episode here, as Jen sits down with Governor Wes Moore of Maryland. They reflect on the meaning of patriotism, where the party can be bolder, and authenticity as a winning factor.Follow “The Blueprint with Jen Psaki” to catch new episodes. Episode two with writer Jack Schlossberg is in the feed now. And sign up for MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts to listen without ads.

Hi there, it's Jen Psaki. I spent 20 years working in Democratic politics, and now I'm the host of MSNBC's Inside with Jen Psaki. And since November, I probably, like most of you, have been spending a lot of time thinking about what gave us another Donald Trump presidency. Now, to be clear, Trump didn't win in a landslide. He won the popular vote by the smallest margin of any president since Nixon. But he did win six swing states, that one blew last time. And he is now sitting in the Oval Office. So how did we get here? And more importantly,

I've been thinking a lot about where the Democrats go from here. Look, those questions are hard and they warrant longer and definitely more introspective conversations than a short segment on TV allows for. Plus, the actions of the Trump administration and our efforts to try to understand them and explain them, it all takes up a lot of oxygen. So I wanted to have a place to discuss what the Democrats are doing to regain power. It prompted me to call up some people

I've known a very long time, some who I think just have interesting and different perspectives, to take a candid look at what just happened and talk about what they think the blueprint should be for Democrats winning again. I'll talk with Rising Stars. If you believe in this country,

that doesn't mean saying that it is flawless. Loving your country doesn't mean lying about its history. Grizzled political hands. We have a debate about message, totally legit, but we lose sight that the messenger is also a message. Party organizers. We've got to be selective. We also have to be able to differentiate between what is shock and awe and what is meaningful action. And even some social media darlings. It's just to be very clear and it'd be very controversial in order to break through, I think. So here we go. Welcome to The Blueprint with Jen Psaki.

For our first conversation, I talked with Maryland Governor Wes Moore just before the Super Bowl. He's obviously a rising star, but I wanted to talk with him because he has one of the most compelling personal stories in politics today. He's blunt about where the party is falling short, and he also doesn't shy away from showing up in places you may not expect. I can still roll with these boys. The problem is the next day.

It's like I could barely get out of bed the next day because I was so sore. That conversation is next on The Blueprint with Jen Psaki. This is where we just get crazy. So just just kidding. Okay. Governor Moore, it's great to see you. Hi Jen. It's great to see you. I may have met you briefly before this, but I think I met you for the first time a year

and a half ago when I came to visit you in Annapolis. It was very fun. That was a great day. It was very fun. And was a great day. It was very fun. And we talked all about your background. You have kind of this, what I would consider a fascinating, unique background. You probably didn't bet as a kid that you were going to be the governor of a state. Fair?

I didn't bet a couple of years ago that I'd be the governor of a state. Other people didn't bet initially either. That is true. If I remember correctly. That is very correct. But you grew up with a single mom, you have an amazing story. She's an amazing woman. You were in the military, you're a veteran, you're a Rhodes scholar, you ran the Robinhood

Foundation and all of this I think makes for a unique background. I want to get into all of it, but it's the Super Bowl this weekend. This is going to air right after the Super Bowl. I may make you make a prediction, but we'll kind of see where it goes. But one of the things that made me think about is, we love football in my house, we're Bengals fans. Sorry, I know you're Ravens fans. My six-year-old, we have Ravens fans across the street

because we live in Arlington, but they're still Ravens fans. And he will say to our neighbor who is six foot five, boo Ravens. I'm like, whoa buddy, let's just think about who we're talking smack to for a second. That's our friend, but he's six, five, you're 40 pounds. Y'all probably though have the have the most potent offense in the NFL. Your defense can't hold anybody. No, it's bad. But your offense is like is lice out. And Joe Burrow, I will tell you,

if he came to my in-laws house, my mother-in-law would be like, what kind of pie do you want? I will make you 700 meals. When there was a rumor that he was engaged, we had a family text chain. My mother-in-law was like, he's too young. He's not ready. I was like, I think he's the age when you got married. But anyway, that aside, but I wanted to do because football, I mean, it's watched

by more Americans than anything else. And it is sort of a unifier in the sense that tens of millions of people are going to sit down and watch the Super Bowl. And I love sports too. I was a swimmer, not a football player. But one of the things I love about it is at the end of the game, everybody shakes hands. And there may be smack talking, but you kind of move forward. But you have done a number of things. You went to the Army Navy game, you saw Trump there, of course, we can dive into that if you want.

You were shotgunning a beer at the Ravens game. I want you to know, because we're about the same age, that when I saw that, I was like, I could still do that. I think I could still shotgun a beer. If so, you did that. You worked out with the Ravens, I think, and the still do that. I think I could still shotgun a beer. If so, you did that. You worked out with the Ravens, I think, and the University of Maryland. Who's in better shape? Which one of them? Oh, the Ravens, however, the Ravens only let me like do little things with them. The University

of Maryland, I did a full practice. You did a full practice. I'm sorry, I didn't want to undervalue your participation. And the next day, that's when I noticed a difference. I can still run with these boys. The problem is the next day is I could barely get out of bed the next day because I was so sore. And I'm like, that's the difference. It's just they just recover faster.

They recover so much faster. And I'm like, that's the age kicking. Well, yeah, they're in their 20s. When I worked for President Obama, he used to sometimes work out, I'm going to put that in quotes, with college basketball players. And he's a pretty tall guy. He's in shape. He's a tall guy.

He's a tall guy. He's a tall guy. He's a tall guy. He's a tall guy. He's a tall guy. He's a tall guy. When I worked for President Obama, he used to sometimes work out, I'm going to put that in quotes, with college basketball players. And he's a pretty tall guy, he's in shape. But you see these athletes in person and you're like, no, you're younger, but you're just like you're a superior something. There's levels to this. But what's interesting to me about this is you clearly love football as a person. You haven't been afraid to show that.

Hey Maryland, what time is it? It's game time. It's game time. We're here at the bank. Let's get this W. We're on our way. Super Bowl down, baby. Let's go Ravens. Why have you decided to do all this in the public?

Because I do it in the private. I mean, and here's the thing too. It's where, you know, I played college football. I think football is the most beautiful game that's ever created because I think it is this perfect combination of a physical game, but it is a highly technical, highly cooperative game. And I just, I've fallen in love.

Like I will literally go back and watch old games like I'm looking at film. Why? Because I'm always fascinating about the ones who do it really well. What makes them so good? Like what makes Lamar Jackson such a unique talent inside the NFL right now? What makes a Saquon Barkley such a great running back is they just see things that other people don't and the game moves slower to them. Even though they might be the fastest thing on the field.

So I've just come to love this game, where even when I go to the Ravens games, I will sit there watching the Ravens game, and also have the red zone on here, because I'm watching the other games while I'm watching the Ravens games. So I've always loved it, I always have. And one thing I always have. And you know, one thing

I always said about getting into into this game and getting into politics was that I never wanted to change who I was. That who I was before needs to be who I am afterwards. I say the greatest compliment that anyone could ever give me is if they say it's the same dude I knew from 10, 20, you know, 30 years ago. If they can say that, then I feel like I would have done my job. And so since I was a huge football fan beforehand, so I'm gonna be a huge football fan now. Yeah, I mean, what I love about this is, and I figured this since you played football in college,

you clearly love it, is that sometimes I think Democrats are afraid to show their sides that are not, one of the great things about a lot of Democrats and Democratic Party is it's like the kids who sat in the front of the Class who wanted to get an a in AP history in high school, you know You're a Rhodes scholar. You don't anything to prove but a lot of people seem afraid to show their personal side They're silly side their human side. Yes, and and you you forget about

Why you're actually doing this. Like, so for example, I mean, the reason I'm doing this is not because I'm trying to fulfill a lifelong goal. This was not a lifetime goal. You know, I wasn't at 11 years old. I wasn't thinking about what am I going to do to be the government? You weren't practicing your inaugural dress? I wasn't practicing my inaugural dress. When you were 11 in the mirror?

In fact, actually, when I was 11 years old, I had handcuffs on my wrist. I was actually arrested at 11. So that wasn't something that was in the cards for me. So I very much feel like I'm kind of playing with house money right now. And so I do think that part of it is, is that there's a lot of folks who just seem to forget, why are you doing this in the first place? Like what is the thing you want to solve? What's the problem that you want to fix?

And if it's just about, I've been thinking about this for a very long time, then now it's about you. And that's the problem, because not only does it mean you're not gonna be effective in what you're gonna do, because one thing I've learned about the job, man, it takes a dogged passion on an issue or on issues that you will give up everything for.

But that's the reason why I'm doing this. So that's the reason, that's the thing I'm to stick to. If you don't have a core conviction, then you're going to find this, this work being very, very frustrating. And frankly, you're going to find yourself being forgotten very quickly, because you're not doing anything that's actually helping people who try to put you there in the first place. Yeah, that's a good thing to remember. When you run into constituents or people, Marylanders, who don't know you well or meeting you for the first time, do they say, do you really like football? Or do they ask you questions? Do they quiz you? Or they respond?

I think now they believe me because they realize there's certain things you can't fake. Like when I get out there every single Friday, I will go on and I'll give predictions, sports course. What do I think is going to happen? Who's going to win? Why I break the whole thing down. I think that I now get more comments from people who are like, I'm actually starting to get betting tips from you because I think I'm hitting like 70% so far this year.

I'm pretty good. You just teed me up because this is going to air the morning after the Super Bowl. So who wins? Who's MVP? I want the Eagles to win. Same, Fly Eagles Fly has to be. Well, no, I can't stand the Eagles. I just want them to win this game.

No, no, I'm not an Eagles fan. I just want them to. I just want the Chiefs to lose. I want the Chiefs to lose. But they're not going to lose. The Chiefs are going to win. The Chiefs are going to win. The Chiefs are going to win. Listen, the Chiefs are just another, they're another category at this point because, you

know, we're literally talking about a team. And think about this, the Kansas City Chiefs, it's been basically a calendar year, right? In the past calendar year, they've lost one game. That's how good this team is. And when people say, well, they're not willing the same and they don't look the same My argument is a we look at certain elements Like for example, the running game is actually better than what it was last year The second piece is I don't understand the argument of they're not winning the same. I'm like wait stop

Let's break apart that sentence. They are still winning, correct? So what are we talking about? this team just knows how to win and and I and I tell you, I think about it where a little over a year ago when the Chiefs knocked off my Ravens and I was at the game. So I'm sitting there, I'm at M&T Bank. I'm watching the Ravens come out and they're all hyped up. The crowd is nuts, right? I mean, we're just so excited.

They're up there, they're sprinting, they're doing flips and all that kind of stuff. And I saw the Chiefs walk out of the locker room, just like all business. And just going out there, running their drills, drowning out everything around them. And I remember thinking to myself, shit, we're going to lose. Because they're like, we've been here before, guys. We know this. The lights are not that bright. And so I would love to see this, the chief's dynasty end.

I don't think it's going to happen with the, with the Philadelphia Eagles. What do you think, there's so much I want to talk to you about, but I just want to ask you one more question about sports. I mean, I was a college swimmer and what I learned about that in terms of my life moving forward is that there's nothing worse than a three hour swim practice at 5 a.m.

in Connecticut where it's 15 degrees. And there's a maniacal miss about swimming. You just like are doing the same thing continuously. What have you taken away from sports that has helped you approach your job as governor? I think one of the biggest things about sports, as translates to governor, is the most important things that you do as governor are not the things that people see.

It's the things they don't, right? It's what you're doing in preparation. It's how you are running your government. It's how you're building your administration. It's the things that you're reading and how you're spending your time. The things that people see, that's showtime. That's the game. Champions are not produced on game days. Champions are produced in the days in between game days. And I really think that's, you know, sports did a great job, I know in my life, of teaching me how do you win properly? How do you lose properly?

How do you focus on building a team? Because everything is gonna be about who's to my left and who's to my right. And how do you make sure that you can prepare for the long term? Because the great thing about sports oftentimes is for each of these things, it's not about games, these are seasons. And so you can focus on an individual game, but you have to remember you have a long season ahead of you. And making sure that you're thinking about that when

you're doing your preparation, I think has been huge because we're very clear. In fact, I have a clock that sits on my desk that counts back the amount of days that I have until my first term is up. And the whole point of it is to never lose sight of the long distance that we have, but to also understand that with that day, I'm never gonna get that day back.

So what are you gonna do that day to make sure that it's helping to day back. So what are you going to do that day to make sure that you're helping to lay a foundation for what you're hoping to get done by the time that clock runs at zero? Such a good mantra. We have a saying, one of those cheesy saying things, right? When you walk out of the door in our basement that I make my kids look at sometimes, it's about you never get this day back, which is I think, a reminder. So I mentioned, I mentioned the start of our conversation, you just have a really interesting background. I mean, you're raised by a single mom. You also spent a couple of years running the Robin Hood Foundation. And for people who aren't familiar with it, I mean, it's big, and you can tell me if this is the accurate description,

basically focused on addressing poverty. And it's a really incredible organization. And because of your background, because of that, I want to ask you just about the Democrats' inability, I will say, define it as, to connect on issues that impact working people, lower income families, and how you think about that. Honestly, for me, it's a bit embarrassing, because I think about, for many people who are living in poverty, there is this idea that,

well, they should just work harder. And I'm like, how hard do they have to work? Just get a job and we'll give you some benefits. Just get a job. Just, you know, and I think about it in context where, you know, particularly when we're talking about children who are, you know, growing up in poverty, people say, well, how does poverty show itself? It literally shows itself in every single aspect of your life. It shows up in the water you're drinking. It shows itself in the air you're breathing. It shows itself in the transportation assets you have or don't have. It shows itself in how you're policed. It shows itself in the schools that your children attend. I mean, it literally

shows itself in every single way. And since the reason that we have so many people living in poverty is not because of laziness, these are policy decisions that oftentimes are in place that are either putting people and keeping people in poverty. And when I ran Robin, I ran Robin for, you know, for four and a half years and we did really good work and I was really proud of the work that we did.

But there also was a very clear understanding of this. But if you're not fixing the policies that are actually putting people and keeping people in poverty, then you're just simply cleaning up the debris that comes from broken systems. Where I mean, I used to have a quote on my desk that said from Dr. King, where it said, the philanthropist is commendable. But the philanthropist can never forget the economic injustice that makes philanthropy necessary.

And that's the thing that, you know, when I was going through this process and thinking about, you know, you know what, maybe I should run for governor. Because I'm constantly sitting there trying to convince and push the governor to do this, the governor should do this, the governor should do that. So like, you know what, how about you run yourself and actually start making the decisions

that you've been pushing them to make for so long and just stand in there getting frustrated because they're not making those decisions. I hope people are listening right now who are contemplating whether they can run for office and thinking about it. And I want to talk to you about this because I think sometimes people define it as,

it's a messaging issue, the policies are all great, they just need to message better. Sounds like you're saying it's more than that. It's more than that. It's both. Because actually I think messaging comes from actually having a core grasp and belief of what it is that you're trying to message.

Where I think part of the reason that oftentimes there's been a messaging problem is people don't believe it. They don't believe it themselves. They don't think about those issues in the same way. It's not something that's been integral to them. It's not something they had to come up in or had to live through. And so when I talk about the need to be able to say, we've got to do a better job of investing in education,

that we have to raise a minimum wage like we've done in the state of Maryland, that we have to invest in childcare like we've done in the state of Maryland. We've made historic investments in childcare in our state, that we have to be able to put people on pathways to do service options like we in Maryland. Maryland's now the first state in the country that has a service share option for all

of our high school graduates. That we have to do things like, you know, I signed the largest mass pardon in the history of this country for misdemeanor cannabis convictions. It's not because those were intellectual exercises that I went through. I'm thinking of like many of my family members, many of my friends and the people who, my mother did not get her first job that gave her benefits until I was 14 years old. First job that gave her a job with reliable hours. First job that allowed her to work one job

instead of multiple jobs. She got that job when I was 14. And this is a woman who went on to earn a master's degree. So these disparities that we see in our society that are not because people are not willing to work, that's not the reason. We have policies that continue to be put in place that are putting people and keeping people

in challenging situations for them and their families. So that's, we have to message better by having better policies and having better policies that are then being translated and pushed by people who actually believe in what they're talking about. Because the people can sense something when someone's being disingenuous, when they don't actually believe what they're talking about. Yeah, I also think people can sense when something is like a poll tested branded thing, right?

Yes. I mean, I worked in democratic politics, obviously more than 20 years. And sometimes when things are branded, even when they have good components of them, like the opportunity agenda, which had a lot of good stuff in it, but it sounds not real. Like a consultant. Yeah. I'm telling you, when I first decided to run for governor, I had people who were trying to talk to me and they're like, listen, I know you're new to this. You haven't run for

office before. But you need a bumper sticker. You need a bumper sticker. You shouldn't say poverty, literally, real common. You shouldn't say poverty. Like why? Well, it's not a good word. People don't like it. They don't wanna hear it.

They don't wanna be reminded of it. They don't wanna, it's not. It's a poll tested word. Because they don't wanna be reminded of like poor people? Or what's the issue with poverty? Honestly, I did not even pressure test it because I dismissed it from jump. Because it's like, listen, I want to be clear.

This is a core part of my why. This is a core part of my why I want to even get involved in this business in the first place. Because I cannot believe that a country like ours allows this level of child poverty. That allows children to have their lives decided for them before they even have a say. Like we are so much better than this.

And so I said, so to tell me, well, listen, when you're on the campaign trail, don't use the word poverty. You're basically telling me that I'm not the right person to be doing this job because I'm not gonna change who I am. And I'm not gonna change the things that I care about and the things that I'm going to fight for.

And so you are right. There has to be for people who choose to get into this business, you have to be very clear about why you're doing this in the first place. And you have to be very clear that you are the person who at the end of the day needs to believe in what you are saying. Because if you do not believe in what you are saying, if you're just willing to take and swallow what other people tell you what to say, and not say the things that people are telling you to stay away from, then you will very quickly find yourself just being a vessel.

And no one wants that sitting in any position of real authority or power. We're going to take a quick break here and when we come back, more with Maryland Governor Wes Moore, back in a moment. On the messaging of it, I mean, one of the things that I learned from trying to sell the Affordable Care Act, which you may remember was quite unpopular for many years, was that it didn't become more popular until it was broken out into different pieces, right? Which sort of seemed so obvious looking back in some ways. If your child is under 25, you can keep them on your health insurance. This will cover pre-existing conditions, things like that.

You, I mean, you just gave your state of the state. You talked about a lot of specifics in there. A lot of it was on the economy and addressing needs of the working class. What have you learned about how to talk about these issues? Because is the economy the number one issue in Maryland? I assume so. Among your constituents.

I think it's the number one issue ever. Everywhere, but what have you learned about how to talk about it in a way that people connect with? You have to make sure that people see how this actually can tie directly back to their lives. So, for example, when I'm talking about

what we're doing around expungement, right? And people are like, well, why does that matter? Or the work we did around pardons. Expunging people's records. Expunging people's records. The reason that we talk about expungement is do you know how challenging it is for anybody once they have served a debt to society

to be able to come back and get a home loan, to get a job, to get a student loan or get accepted to a school? And what happens to us if that person, if we're basically making every sentence a life sentence, that that person is no longer has the ability to contribute, that person no longer has an ability to be able to participate in our economy.

And you know, the thing that I say, and one of the big reasons that we're continuing to push on things like we've got to do a better job of supporting our men and boys is, if you show me a young man who does not care about their own future, you're also showing me a young man who doesn't care about yours either. So there is a distinct reason why we want to

make sure there are more people engaged and involved. When we talk about making it, when we talk about raising a minimum wage and making sure that people have a chance that no one who is working a full time job should be living in poverty. Or when we talk about things like childcare and why we've made historic investments in childcare is because I don't want any parents have to choose between is my child going to be okay? Or can I go back to the workforce? So you got to really make it personal. And you got to be able to break it down for people so they really see how are these policy issues? How are these politicians? How is that going to impact my life? And how is this something

that I should really rally behind? And I think it's why it's working in our state, because I think people see that the things that we are pushing for, a tax reform that's going to give the vast majority of Marylanders a tax cut, an ability to create more housing. We just passed the most aggressive housing package of any Maryland governor in recent history and we're coming back for more again in this year's session. It's because people are seeing in their everyday lives that these decisions that are being made actually will have an impact

on what they want for themselves and their families. One of the many reasons I want to talk to you is that you actually talk to human beings every day as governor, and sometimes when you're in Washington, and I've lived here on and off for 20 years, you get a little disconnected from how people are actually talking about things. And as we look back at the election

and more importantly, how we look forward, I mean, some of the areas where Trump made gains were among, some gains among young black men, a larger one among Latino men. Do you think that's about the policies? Is it about how they're talked about? Is it about misinformation? As we're looking back, but trying to look forward, what do you make of that?

Yeah, I think a lot of it is all the above. Misinformation is a very real problem. And I say this because I would go oftentimes and talk to people about why I was supporting the vice president and why I wanted her to be the next president. And some of the questions that I was getting from people, I'm like, where did you get that information? And these weren't like digs at her. They thought they're asking legitimate questions, but they were so factually incorrect that there is a problem with misinformation and where are people getting their stuff from

that they're then internalizing. But also, I don't think this can be something where if people feel like the only time you care about what I think, or the only time you're showing up is if you're showing up every four years, then I ain't got no time for you. If people feel like, you know, the things that you are spending so much time

addressing a certain issue, and I feel like my issue is not being heard or interpreted, I'm not gonna be excited for you. And so I do think how we are thinking about ways we are bringing people into this conversation, how you're talking about people like they're actually assets and not deficits. I mean, I know I'm personally exhausted

by the conversation where every time the conversation around what are we doing to help black men comes up, we're talking about black men comes up, we're talking about like, you know, incarceration. I'm like, we're not having a conversation about wages and wealth creation and all the kind of stuff. We're having conversations about incarceration. And it's like, it's very offensive to a lot of people

as is happening. When you know, when you're, and I think one thing that we do have to be really, really careful of is the either or, right? Where it's like, are you going to support immigrant families? Or why does that support not go to African American families? We have got to just make sure that as we are thinking about not just the policy issues and what happens in terms of voter turnout, The lack of voter turnout was not the head.

That was the tail. This thing was building up. Tell me what you mean by that. Well, but this thing was building up for a very long time. And so when people were looking at voter rolls, like, oh man, what happened to black men or what happened to Latino men? The answer is, what happened is,

this happened a long time ago. You're just now figuring out because we now have this quantitative data point that's showing they're disillusioned, they're frustrated, and not even necessarily with a political party. They're frustrated with political system that just doesn't seem to see them and doesn't see them as the assets actually that they are. That doesn't see a place or a space where we can have positions of real authority and

Leadership where somehow when people are sitting there in these roles that somehow it's because of a social experiment You know, I think about myself. I'm not I'm not the governor of Maryland because of a social experiment But I also know this I'm not the third I also know this, I'm not the third African American ever elected governor in the history of this country because I'm only the third African American who was ever born who was qualified to be a governor. There are real structural problems and challenges that I think we have to be both honest about,

but then as we get in these seats, be unafraid to do something about them as well. If we can do that, you're actually gonna speak to people and you're gonna watch how increased voter turnout is not going to be a revelation, but increased voter turnout is going to be something that has just been produced because you've already been doing the work. I've read a lot of your recent interviews you've done. So then this really stuck out to me. I wrote it on a piece of paper. You talked about the bastardization of patriotism, which I thought was such an interesting...

And you can talk about this because you're a veteran. Everybody can't talk about this, in my view. And one of the things that has struck me over many years of being involved in politics is Fox News is playing in every military base. The military, I think, is largely conservative leaning, which, you know, and there is an ownership of the flag and patriotism by members of the Republican Party, regardless of what that means. How do Democrats flip that? How do they regain it? How do they address it? I think first, I think Democrats need to care to address it. You don't think they care right now? I still think it's still so foreign for people to wonder why you would would why you are patriotic Or what that means and what it looks like and I think there's been almost this is

Conceding of the flag or for the word patriotism which for me is deeply frustrating because I mean I you know No, I again I think about my own family history where you know, my grandfather Was born in South Carolina literally his earliest memories was when the Ku Klux Klan ran him and his family, my great grandfather, my great grandmother out of the country. They go back to Jamaica. Most of my family who was with him said they would never come back to the United States

and a lot of them did not. What my grandfather did, he comes, he goes to Lincoln University, HBCU in Pennsylvania. He becomes a minister like his father. When he became a minister, he became the first black minister in the history of the Dutch Reformed Church. And the same threats that was coming to his father

started coming to him, but he stuck. And I always think about my grandfather, where this is a person, he passed away at 87 when I was in Afghanistan, fighting for this country. And he was 87 years old. He had a deep Jamaican accent his entire life. And he's maybe the most patriotic man I've ever met. He loved this country.

He loved what this country stood for. And this is a person who was, his earliest memories was the Ku Klux Klan. You know, was a minister in the South Bronx. And he saw the complete deterioration of a neighborhood. And in many ways, an intentional deterioration of a neighborhood. He lived through times when one of the lessons I've always learned from my grandparents was that you never say no to a bathroom and you never say no to a meal.

Because those are good lessons, right? Someone says you need a restroom use it someone says you want something to buy to eat take it because they grew up at a time when that wasn't guaranteed that you're going to get it whenever you wanted to and he loved this country he was so proud when i joined the army which was fascinating to so many other people but he was like literally tears in his eyes when i told him I was joining the army at 17 years old so I Am passionate about what this country means because I saw through his eyes laws and all and

So the idea that somehow someone can take that from me someone can take that from my family Someone can just you know particularly people who have not put in the work in the same way that my family has put in the work in a way of honoring and really loving this country and sacrificing for it, flaws and all. I just think we need to be firm on this. And if you believe in this country, that doesn't mean saying that it is flawless. Loving your country doesn't mean lying about its history.

But loving your country means you actually have a role in making it better. And that means willing to do the work, knowing that the history that we come from is a powerful and a bold history. And then we do have an obligation to do our part to make it better. I always like to end on a positive note because we're having real candid, sometimes dark convos here. You're a positive vibe guy. I think it's fair to say. I think a lot of people listening right now are having a hard time with what the country's going through, what they're seeing the impact. Some people are feeling like, I don't want to be engaged. I just I'm taking myself out of this. Some people are feeling like I just want one don't

want to consume the news. What do you say to people? I mean, you have to do this every day. You're the governor. So what do you say to people about why it's important to stay engaged and what keeps you engaged aside from your day job, of course? Yeah, you know, I think the reason that I stay engaged and why I'm still deeply hopeful for the future is because I know our past. I know our past has been dark. I know I come from a state where you know, people people forget Maryland is the northern most southern state in the country. The Mason-Dixon line runs through the state of Maryland. The bloodiest battles of the Civil War were fought in Maryland. Maryland is the home of Harriet Tubman and the Underground Railroad. It's the home of Frederick Douglass. It's the home of Thurgood Marshall. And I think part of

the reason that I am still so deeply hopeful and excited actually in this moment is because I know the journeys that we've come from and I know our DNA. And I do, I mean, sometimes even on really, really difficult days, I look at history and I like to read history. And I'll read up about Harriet Tubman You know a woman was born the Eastern Shore found her way to freedom and then spent the remainder of her life being one of the most profound Conductors in the Underground Railroad Literally doing dozens of trips bringing people into freedom and who I last year actually made a general

One of the great things about being a governor is you can do that. Yeah Yeah, that's pretty cool. She is now general Harriet Tubman. But I think about what a hypothetical conversation with Harriet Tubman would be if I was telling her how difficult the days are right now. And watching her reaction, considering what she saw every single day. And considering that when she got to her freedom and she could have been sitting in Philadelphia and saying, I'm glad I'm done with that. And instead of doing that, she then went right back down to Maryland and came and got more people. And then when she brought more people to freedom, she went right back down and brought more people freedom. And I imagine what her face would look like if I was sitting here telling

her how difficult my day was. I think the thing that we, I want to remind people is do not forget how powerful you are. Don't forget our history. We've seen dark days before. We've seen challenging moments. And the reason that we're here is because there were people who came before us who said, hold on, we're going to be okay. And I think right now what our society needs of free people to say to us, we're going to be okay, guys, just hold on. Governor Westmore, a perfect place to end. Thank you so much for joining me today. Thank you, Jen. This is so exciting. Thanks for listening to the blueprint with Jen Psaki. Episode two, which is my conversation with Jack Schlossberg is in your feeds now.

And you can check back every Monday for a new episode. Be sure to subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts to get this and other MSNBC podcasts ad free. As a subscriber, you'll also get exclusive bonus content that we're excited to share with you later in the series. The senior producer for the Blueprint is Margaret Menafee, and our producer is Vicky Virgalina. John Ball is our associate producer, our booking producer is Michelle Hoffner, and we get

additional support from McKenna Roberts, Will Robbie, and Matt Rivera. Our audio engineers are Bob Mallory and Katie Lau, and Bryson Barnes is the head of audio production. Alex Lupica is the executive producer of Inside with Jen Psaki, and Aisha Turner is the executive producer of MSNBC Audio. I'm your host, Jen Psaki. Remember to search for the Blueprint wherever you get your podcasts and follow the series.