Morning Joe - More than 80 dead as searches for survivors intensifies

Episode Date: July 7, 2025

The death toll rose to 81 across six counties today. In Kerr County, officials reported 68 deaths — those of 40 adults and 28 children. Officials said 10 children are still missing from Camp Mystic.

It's important to emphasize this, especially in the Kerrville area. There were so many people who were just camping out, not children in camps, but adults camping out near the river, people in RVs and things like that. There are people who are missing who are not on the known confirmed missing because we don't yet know who they are. Texas Governor Greg Abbott warning that the number of victims from the catastrophic flooding that struck his state is only expected to rise. We'll get a live report from the devastated region as search and rescue efforts continue

and desperation grows. We'll also have the latest from the Middle East, as Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu heads to the White House today to meet with President Trump amid another proposed ceasefire deal for Gaza. And what the CIA is now acknowledging about Lee Harvey Oswald before the JFK assassination. We'll dig into...

After denying it for 60, 62 years. We'll look into those new records just revealed. Good morning and welcome to Morning Joe. It is Monday, July 7th. We hope you all had a great July 4th weekend. And we begin this morning in central Texas where local officials say more than 80 people have died as a result of the catastrophic flooding

that ripped through the region on Friday. In Kerr County alone, one of the hardest hit areas, at least 40 adults and 28 children have been killed. Rescuers on the ground are still rushing to find survivors while the Coast Guard is conducting aerial searches, scanning for heat signatures that could lead to a rescue or recovery. At this hour, 10 children and one counselor remain missing from Camp Mystic, a Christian summer camp for girls that is nestled near the Guadalupe River, which surged more than 20 feet in less than two hours during the peak of the devastating flooding. Several campers, counselors, and the camp's longtime director have

been found dead after floodwater swept away entire cabins of sleeping campgoers. The grandson of the camp's directors had his grandfather died while trying to rescue campers from the rapidly rising waters. And right now, Texas is bracing for more rain with the National Weather Service warning of the possibility of more flash floods over the next few hours. President Trump yesterday signed a major disaster declaration for Kirk County and spoke to reporters about the deadly storm. I'm planning to visit Texas, Mr. President.

Probably on Friday. We wanted to leave a little time. I would have done it today, but we'd just be in their way. Probably Friday. Are you still planning to phase out FEMA? Well, FEMA is something we can talk about later, but right now they're busy working, so we'll leave it at that. All right.

Joining us now, NBC News senior national correspondent Jay Gray, live this morning from Kerrville, Texas. Jay, what is the latest? Well, Mika, in what is usually such a unique and beautiful part of Texas, the hill country here, it's ravaged. You can see the tree behind me. You can see debris and limbs pressed up against the railing of what is a river walk here in Kerrville.

To help you try and put some perspective on this water, we're more than 20 feet above the normal edge of the Guadalupe River River and the water rushed up and over this area and into the surrounding community here. This was a powerful storm. The Guadalupe climbing more than 20 feet in 45 minutes or so in the middle of the night on a holiday weekend. Just a horrible recipe for the disaster that continues to unfold here. As you talk about, more than 80 people the day and night searching for survivors. They're on the ground, they're in the air, they've got thermal imaging to try and find any heat registers in this debris, they've got night vision goggles, dogs, high profile military vehicles to get into areas that are still flooded out. They say they still believe that there are survivors here and that they're going to find them and continue to press that they're going to do

everything they can for as long as they can until everyone is located here. I have to be honest though, when you talk to people on the ground here, I think most still very much in shock as you can imagine here. The one thing they haven't lost is that hope. They do believe they're still going to find some survivors from this, but it is going to be difficult. And obviously that gets more unlikely as the hours continue to tick off here. And then the forecast, not doing any favors for this area either. We saw rain again yesterday. We saw people evacuated. Some of the first responders having a shift to get those survivors up to higher ground and then pull back themselves so they

couldn't go on with the effort in some of these areas and unfortunately here in Kerr County forecasters say we're going to see at times heavy rain over the next twenty four hours there's nowhere right now for that water to go Jay, I grew up in Florida, Joe here. I grew up in Florida, obviously, aware of the hurricanes that were coming. We prepared for hurricane season every year. Sometimes it wouldn't have any,

sometimes we'd have massive hurricanes that went well beyond the scope of what we were expecting, but usually the weather services got it right. I'm curious, in this region, we've seen clips from a similar flood in 1987. How common, even understanding this was massive by all standards, how common is flash flooding in this region? Joe, I think it's common enough that a lot of the meteorologists will tell you this is flash flood alley.

You've got tornado alley, you've got hurricane alley. They call this region of Texas flash flood alley, and you do see that regularly because it's on that hard limestone. So the water hits and just spreads very quickly. And the Guadalupe, which is normally a trickle in many areas, takes on a lot of that water as it continues to rush down and it just continues to grow. One note that I think we don't talk about enough when it comes to the flooding and the rains is the mental side of this.

After what they've been through over the last three, now almost four days here, the rain yesterday, the rain today is taking a real mental toll. It's triggering to see that rain come again when you haven't had the time to clean up, when you've got people you love still missing. And in this area, like we were talking about, they understand the risk of flash flooding. But Joe, as you said, this is a hundred-year event. They don't normally see anything like this. NBC News senior national correspondent Jay Gray reporting live this morning from Caraville, Texas. Thank you very much for your reporting. So let's bring in Travis County Judge Andy Brown. He serves

as the county's chief administrator and is the director of emergency management for the county. Thank you very much for coming on the show very early this morning. What is the very latest that you can tell us about the search rescue recovery efforts? Yeah, so like in Kerrville, it's still raining here in Austin. We're under flash flood watch until 7 p.m. today. That's slightly less severe than a warning, but it's still we're not out of it yet. We have had a much more localized disaster here in Austin and Travis County, Two Creeks, Sandy Creek, and Cow Creek that were very severely hit in a very short amount of time by a

lot of water. We've seen about 19 inches kind of localized in that part of Travis County, whereas the other, you know, south Travis County, the rain has only been an inch or two. So this is a storm that was very sudden, very localized. And yesterday I went up in our emergency helicopter to kind of look at it from the air and it's very clear that there is destruction and death along those creeks and along the houses and mobile homes that were next to those creeks. But then, you know, a quarter mile away from the creeks, nothing at all, no, no destruction at all.

To me, just underscores just the vast power of this water and the power of flash floods. You know, Judge, there's been talk through the weekend about possible cuts impacting the Weather Service, impacting rescue efforts. Far too early to sign blame. It seems to me that every local and county and state and national official are all saying those investigations need to be had in the coming weeks and months. But I did note you have actually come out and thanked the National Weather Service. You said their forecasts saved lives. Tell us

about that. Yeah, so we have a very good relationship even though, you know, we're a blue county here in Travis County. We have a great relationship with the state of Texas when it comes to emergencies. I can't say enough good things about TDEM, the Texas Department of Emergency Management. They're great partners. They've given us assets. We've sent them assets to take to Kerrville, including our one of our helicopters and others to help people when they

were really in the thick of it. The National Weather Service has, over the years, consistently given us warnings that are very important. And frankly, I could not do what I do without the information that we get from the Weather Service and the help that we get from FEMA. I've been county judge for about five years since November 2020. Three months into my tenure here, we had a winter storm Uri,

which provided snow and freezing temperatures in the middle of COVID, something that we don't see a lot of here in Austin and Travis County. And frankly, without the money from FEMA, without the assistance from the National Weather Service, we would have been in a much worse shape. So we do everything that we can locally.

We do good work here in Travis County. We do good work in partnership with TDEM, but we can't do what we do without those federal assets. Yeah. I mean, I saw firsthand growing up in northwest Florida just how critically important FEMA was and you're certainly echoing that in your part of the United States. I want to ask you, how critical is FEMA funding? How critical is the National Weather Service funding for you to do your job, to protect

lives, to send the sort of warnings to people, whether it's in Texas flash flood alley or whether it's in hurricane alley in Florida. How important is continued funding of FEMA for you and your constituents and the people whose lives you try to save every day? It is absolutely 100% critical. We would not, we just do not have the funding, the infrastructure to look at weather in the ways that National Weather Service can. It seems that there, for our time at least least were a little slower notifications you know over the past six months from our local sort of Twitter accounts run by the National Weather Service. Those seem

to have picked up again but there was definitely a period where it was pretty uncertain. I don't know where it stands today but we have to have that information. I rely on that every time there is an adverse weather event, look to the National Weather Service, every single emergency call that we have. And during times like this, we have several per day where we have the Sheriff's Department, we have EMS, we have everybody on a call or in a room together.

We always start out with a report out from the National Weather Service. It's absolutely critical to the life and safety of people here in Travis County and across Texas. All right, Judge Andy Brown, thank you so much and know that we're all thinking and praying for you all in Texas and good luck. Thank you very much.

Thanks for the discussion. All right. More now on those questions that have emerged about the preparedness of local communities for this level of flooding and whether the Trump administration's cuts to the National Weather Service might have exacerbated the problem. Some state and local officials were quick to criticize the Weather Service on Friday, saying forecasts underestimated the rainfall. But the NSS is defending its warnings, arguing the forecasts were as good as could be expected

given the extreme rain. The question then becomes, did the warnings reach the people most at risk? Some experts say staffing shortages may have made it harder for forecasters to coordinate responses with local emergency managers. As the New York Times reports, the National Weather Service's San Angelo office, which is responsible for some of the areas hit hardest by Friday's

flooding, was missing a senior hydrologist, staff forecaster and meteorologist in charge. And the Weather Service's nearby San Antonio office, which covers other areas hit by the floods, also had significant vacancies, including a warning coordination meteorologist and science officer. The times goes on. Some of the openings may predate the current Trump administration. But at both offices, the vacancy rate is roughly double what it was when Mr. Trump returned to the White House in January.

President Trump pushed back against criticism. The National Weather Service was not properly staffed when speaking to reporters yesterday. Are you investigating whether some of the cuts to the federal government left key vacancies at the National Weather Service or the emergency yesterday. are set up, but I wouldn't blame Biden for it either. I would just say this is a 100 year catastrophe and it's just so horrible to watch. Let's bring in U. S. Special correspondent for BBC News and the host of the rest is politics podcast. Cady K columnist and associate editor for the

Washington Post. David Ignatius is with us and host of Pablo Torrey Finds Out on Metal Arch Media, MSNBC contributor Pablo Torrey. Good to have you all on board this morning. So David, we will be going to you for your insights on foreign policy soon. But before we talk about the Middle East, let's talk about Texas and flood country there, and specifically just on government staffing. It is far, far too early to draw any lines between a lack of government staffing, cuts, and what happened here.

But much like after the plane accident, the plane crash in Washington DC in January this year, people are going to look. Why was there only one person here? I'm sure people are going to be asking, why was the person who coordinated the emergency response not on? But it seems to me, David, there's just a bigger question as we move forward for the next flood, the next storm, the next hurricane. We've been talking about this an awful lot over the last six months. The group of people that put together Project 2025, the group of people in Washington that have talked about cuts, cuts, cuts, cuts, well, they're talking about cutting 8, 9% of the

budget. We've always said this, the 8 or 9% of the budget that is actually what government does to help people, to save people's lives beyond defense, Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, and interest on the debt. There was one story I read this weekend about a county commissioner. They wanted to get sirens and first alert systems for the area most affected. And the county commissioner just said, on the local level, we don't have $50,000 to have an early emergency system. We didn't get grants from Washington, D.C., and we can't do that ourselves. Just talk about generally, again, looking past this specific flood and looking to the

next flood, the next hurricane, the next earthquake, how important it is that we actually staff up this eight nine ten percent of our federal government that is so responsible for saving people's lives day in day out So Joe my feeling is that among those who are so eager to cut government at every level There's almost a content dismissal of the services that government provides to citizens. And it's only in moments like this that we realize, remember, that we require absolute commitment and excellence from the people we often don't see. We're sitting in buildings, monitoring the weather, and

preparing plans that we never hear about. I think just the simple idea that restoring pride that we have as citizens in the work that our government does and restoring pride among the people who work for government at the state, federal, state, local, and federal level is the best single thing we could do. Money's tight, there's a lot of fat in the federal budget, everybody knows that. But it's essential, and we see it right now in front of us, that the quality of response from federal workers, state workers, has to be absolutely at the top level or many, many

people will die. And so here's a moment to think about that and then think how do we want to make the political choices. So the editorial board of the San Antonio Express News says the fatal Texas flooding demands search for answers along with the missing. The board writes in part, quote, Was there anything that could have indeed, should have been done to move people away from the raging water and avert tragedy?

While hundreds of people continue to search for missing adults and children, there's no reason other people can't or shouldn't be searching for answers. We have the wherewithal to do both. One of the differences between those two searches is that with the former, the people engaged in it are completely aligned in what they are seeking. With the latter, we're not as assured that federal, state, and regional leaders are eager to dig for information that might reveal truths they don't want to find, or rather, that they don't want the public to learn.

What matters is that the urgency with which we search for the missing is not allowed to wane after they are found. It must be maintained and applied to the search for answers that those who survived and the memories of those who perished deserve. And the Dallas Morning News editorial board has a piece entitled, So Many What Ifs Haunt Guadalupe River Flood, and it reads in part this. Once this initial response has ended and recovery begins, state and local officials need to wrestle with improved warning systems.

We need to understand whether improved staffing or technology at either the National Weather Service or the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration could give more accurate advance warning. Local officials, meanwhile, must review their own practices and policies. Should they have acted to require people to move away from the Guadalupe River as the rain began to fall? Should people be permitted to live in camps so close to the riverbanks? Those are haunting questions now. What if we could have done a thousand things differently and perhaps spared our state this terrible tragedy. We need

to understand those things and do whatever can be done to ensure that this doesn't happen again. You know, it's the stories that we read. Just so unspeakable. The young girls lost, the families lost, the grandparents lost, parents desperately, desperately seeking to save their young daughters, to save their mother and father, only to have them swept away. These are questions that are going to be asked. It's what we do as Americans. It's questions we asked after Uvalde. It's questions that we asked

after the DC plane crash and after every plane crash. And I'll tell you, Katie Kay, it's a question as I was driving over to Mississippi and Louisiana every day in the month following Hurricane Katrina and just seeing the most deplorable pathetic emergency response on the local, state, and national level I've ever seen. Those were the hard questions that were asked after that point. Now, we're, again, far too early to say this is anything to do. This is a trip into one thing. Yeah.

Hurricane Katrina. I'm just saying when there are people who are dead and there are quite there are going to be questions about what could have been done to save their lives, whether it's in a school, whether it's in an airplane or whether it's on a riverbank. And of course, those are the questions that are going to have to be asked, that people just can't wave away. And hopefully we will find that there was nothing anybody could do and that this was a hundred year flood and the water just rose too quickly. But state officials and national officials

just brushing away any questions, it's only going to make matters worse. Yeah, I mean, there is a tendency, isn't there, Jo? And we've spoken about this before, after a great tragedy, whether it is a fire, whether it is a school shooting, for to hear that response, well this is too soon to ask the question, but this is exactly the time to ask the question. And in a world where we know that one tragedy is followed by another tragedy is followed by another tragedy, actually we have to ask the questions as soon as possible

and launch the investigation as soon as possible and try to get the answers as soon as possible to try to prevent this. One thing that we do all know is that, ask any American insurance industry, we know that we're gonna get more of these tragedies. As the world heats up, there is more moisture in the planet, there is more moisture in the air,

and the rains are getting more torrential. The fires are getting more frequent out in California. And linking the dots there, I think it has to be done. And we're trying to pretend that this is something that is never gonna happen again. It doesn't serve the people who live in these communities very well. And one thing I think it does suggest

is whatever we find about the staffing in this particular incident, whether there were three people missing, whether the numbers were lower than they were during the Biden administration, going forward again ask the insurance industries in America. We need more research on these kind of catastrophic events and more work on these kind of catastrophic events if we're going to keep Americans safe. Well and and of course, funding for climate change has been absolutely slashed. I saw the story of my rock-ribbed Republican friend who's probably never voted for a Democrat in his life, but told me years ago because he was in insurance. He helped run an insurance company.

And I asked him, I said, OK, you're Republican, you're conservative. Tell me about global warming. tell me about climate change is it real he goes is it real because let me show you my balance sheets Joe well you know we are we are paying ten times as much out for natural disasters as we've ever paid the pace is quickening things things are getting worse, climate change is a disaster. That's coming from a Republican helping to lead an insurance company looking at his bottom line, not hugging trees, looking at his bottom line. It's real, it's there, and I'm not exactly sure what Republicans in Congress think they're

doing by sticking their head in the sand. But it's not good. Again, had nothing to do with this. We're just again projecting forward because we don't want to see this happening again. Pablo, let's talk about some extraordinary moments here like Scott Ruskin who was a Coast Guard swimmer who saved 165 young girls from a camp. There were so many, so many scenes of heroism throughout this unspeakable tragedy. Yeah, if we zoom in, Joe, and it's hard to move past the macro questions you're posing, frankly.

It is the idea of, okay, where is the public money so that the private heroism you're alluding to just now isn't quite so necessary? But in a story like this, in a state like Texas, of course you're gonna get people that we should honor and valorize, whether it's the grandfather who is risking, sacrificing his own life to save those around him, whether it's the grandfather who is risking sacrificing his own life to save those around

him, whether it's the parents who are sacrificing themselves in a way that look, the flood, Joe, part of what's heartbreaking here is that the flood as a concept is the oldest tragedy, you could argue, dating back to the Bible. And so the idea that we rely on truly inspirational, individualized acts of valor, we cannot survive as a people without that. And you just hope that when it comes to where money in Texas and nationally is being spent, and again it is cruel, it is cruel poetry that it is in Texas, right, where there is funding towards

lots of things that are warranting it certainly, when it comes to immigration and the border and all of that, that you rely on just the guy next door to save his neighbor. Again, the oldest possible response to what is framed as an act of God as opposed to something that is preventable. You know, we should tell these stories. We will continue obviously to tell these stories. But I just I shudder when it comes to the idea that that is both necessary and sufficient. It clearly isn't the latter when you come to how the zero-sum game of what David Ignatius called political decisions are being made. And you know that, and I learned this in Katrina, when things finally started working together, you had good neighbors that went out and helped others in need. Yes.

You also, of course, had faith-based organizations. A lot of churches I saw were down on the ground, religious organizations on the ground weeks before the federal government woke up and got there. And then, of course, you had the Coast Guard and you had the federal government flying helicopters over people's homes in New Orleans and saving them. So it is it really it takes everything. It takes a public-private partnership and it does take good neighbors and remarkable acts of heroism, the likes of which we've seen over the past several days, to save people's lives. And we'll be coming back to this throughout the show, especially if there are any updates

on the search and rescue operations still underway and still ahead on Morning Joe. We'll break down what the so-called Big Beautiful Bill means for America now that it has been signed into law. Plus, the latest out of the Middle East is Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu heads to the White House today to meet with President Trump amid a push for a ceasefire deal in Gaza. Also ahead, what newly released JFK assassination files reveal about CIA intelligence surrounding Lee Harvey Oswald before the Dallas killing. Mark Caputo joins us for this new reporting for Axios. And a reminder, the

Morning Joe podcast is available each weekday featuring our full conversations on the latest news and also analysis. You can listen wherever you get your podcasts. You're watching Morning Joe. We'll be right back. It is 32 past the hour. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu will visit the White House later today. It will be Netanyahu's third trip there since the start of President Trump's second term. It comes as the U.S. pushes for a ceasefire deal in Gaza, weeks after carrying out an operation targeting nuclear sites in Iran. President Trump yesterday was asked about the upcoming visit.

What's your message going to be to Netanyahu tomorrow? coming visit. The attack turned out, according to every single Atomic Energy Commission, that was a complete and total obliteration. So, David Ignatius, obviously President Trump has had a somewhat strained relationship with Benjamin Netanyahu on again, off again. We know last week he defended him in a truth social post against some charges that were being still being brought against him. What do you expect from this meeting? And do you think it's possible, they'll be talking about Iran, do you think it's also possible for a ceasefire deal in Gaza that could actually hold so relief could finally start coming in to the people of Gaza who've just faced unspeakable tragedy over the past year or so.

Joe, I think this will be in many ways a triumphal visit by Prime Minister Netanyahu. He has emerged from what I've described and we've all seen, were the ashes, the nightmare of October 7, and Israel has gone on to defeat utterly Amos in Gaza, Hezbollah in Lebanon, and now Iran. There is a proposal that President Trump is expected to announce that his mediator, Steve Witkoff, has been working on with Egyptian and Qatari mediators that would provide for a 60-day ceasefire and a commitment by the U.S. to try to make that permanent, which has been one of the Hamas demands that would be an exchange over that 60-day period, the 10 living hostages who remain would be turned over to Israel without fanfare, elaborate celebrations that infuriated the Israelis in previous hostage

releases. The 18 hostage bodies would also be returned, and there would be a large number of Palestinian prisoners who'd be released. And then there'd be movement towards what we always call the day after. It's still hard to see just what that's going to involve, but there's much more talk now involving the United Arab Emirates, Egypt, Jordan, all of the key players about how governance might be established in Gaza in a transitional period as Gaza digs out from this nightmare.

There's discussion of the possibility that Hamas fighters, Hamas leaders might actually leave Gaza as part of a final deal, but that hasn't been worked out. And then, Joe and Mika, there's a much broader agenda that I think will come up today. The President Trump spoke about it in the little clip that you described. He sees this as a moment where Israel's been victorious on the battlefield, and it's time to take advantage of that by trying to solve as many or address as many regional problems as possible. I'd like a deal with Iran. I'm told by the people who are working on that deal that the U.S. demand continues to

be that Iran dismantle entirely its nuclear program. And so far, there's not been receptivity to that in Iran. We'll see what lies ahead. But there's every possibility that Israel will move toward a security agreement with Syria's new government, which would be an astonishing change in the region. There's a talk that normalization with Saudi Arabia, the biggest, most powerful of the Gulf Arab countries, might be possible if Israel can make some changes in the language it uses to speak about the Palestinian issue.

So this is a time when Netanyahu arrives in Washington as successful in this long, bloody, terribly painful war. And I think there will be an effort, an appropriate one, to see how do we turn this into as broad a peace agreement as possible? How do we take the idea behind the Abraham Accords of reaching out across the region and make that bigger and more permanent? Yeah, adding the Saudis to that Abraham Accords, of course, was something that President Trump wanted the first time.

This would be the big deal if you managed to get it. Just to touch a little bit more on Iran, David, and not to kind of throw cold water on any potential optimism that there might be that you're expressing there, I had a long conversation with Kareem Sajjapur, who we had on the program a lot. It's hard to believe that it's only two weeks in this kind of frenetic news world. We tend to forget news very quickly, but it's only two weeks until those strikes. Kareem was laying out a kind of scenario in which there are multiple ways that the strikes could lead to some sort of different type of government or some sort of successor to

the Ayatollah in Iran, but that amongst those different scenarios, several of them could see Iran rushing for a nuclear weapon now, not doing what the Americans are asking and completely disbanding their nuclear program, but actually doing the opposite. And there is a potential that the strikes actually could precipitate a situation in which we're less safe, not more safe with Iran. What's your take on where we are with the Iranian nuclear program at the moment and this idea that there could

be a rush in Iran for a nuclear weapon. So Katty, my sense is probably pretty similar to our friend Karim's. It's clear that the intensity of Israeli and then American bombing has delayed the Iranian nuclear program. It will take months, maybe years, we just don't know, to put it back together. There is still this question of where the highly enriched uranium that Iran had already accumulated is. That could quickly be moved to bomb grade in what you describe, a dash by Iran towards having a nuclear weapon.

I think the most pessimistic factor that I see is that when I talk to the people involved in the negotiations, they say they're not getting any budget at all from Iran. Before the U.S. sent the B-2s up with the bunker busting bombs, there was an extensive dialogue between Woodcoff, the special envoy and the Iranian foreign minister. That seems to have ended. And so we're just in a situation where the only recourse in the future, if Iran does move toward a bomb, is for US and Israeli intelligence to detect it and then somebody

to go in and bomb it again. So in that sense, I think you're right to be cautionary. There's no sign of a breakthrough with Iran. More generally in the Middle East, this does seem just possibly a transition to something that would be different. We'll be watching what happens at the meeting at the White House today. The Washington Post, David Ignatius, thank you very much for your insights this morning. So newly released documents from the CIA are shedding light on a series of shadow operations

surrounding the assassination of President John F. Kennedy. A recent piece in Axios explains how the declassified records reveal a covert CIA operative had direct contact with Kennedy's sassian, Lee Harvey Oswald, in the months leading up to the president's death and then later worked to mislead Congress about that connection. With us now the author of that piece, White House reporter for Axios, Mark Caputo. Mark, thanks so much for being with us. Fascinating. It appears that the CIA has lied for 62 years about this gentleman who ran an operation that came in contact with Oswald and also the CIA lied about standing up a student group involved in anti-castro activities. Tell us about it.

His name was George Joannides and he's one of the more interesting characters to emerge later in the narrative of what we understand about the JFK assassination and the way in which the government hid documents and evidence and information about it. For years he was unknown. Then in 1992, the movie Oliver Stone film, JFK came out, created such an uproar that Congress in a rare act of unanimity passed the JFK Records Act requiring disclosure of all records from all agencies related to the JFK assassination by 2017. That got delayed by various reasons by two presidents, President Trump and President Biden, albeit information was slowly released,

but not all the information. We're still waiting on all the information. And in 1998, this little piece of paper caught a researcher's eye. Jefferson Morley is his name. And he noticed that there was a person named Howard who appeared in these documents heading this student group called the Cuban Student Group or known by its initials, its Spanish language initials, the DRE, based in Miami. However, they had operations in New Orleans. It was a bunch of Cuban exiles who were anti-Castro. And about 105 days before the assassination to Alice in 1962, these Cuban students went

up in a confrontation in New Orleans with Lee Harvey Oswald. And then they went up debating Lee Harvey Oswald on local television. Oswald then went to Mexico, then later on was accused of shooting President Kennedy. But after the assassination, immediately after, partly because of the work of the student group and the media attention, everyone knew Lee Harvey Oswald as a communist. And the question was, well, did the CIA have anything to do with the student group? And the CIA the entire time said, oh no, we had nothing to do with this. We didn't the CIA the entire time said, oh no, we had nothing to do with this.

We didn't know anything about it. Turns out they did. George Joe Enidis, the Miami-based operative or officer who was the branch chief or assistant branch chief specializing in psychological warfare, I'm not making this up, was the guy who ran this group and went by the code name Howard. When then asked for years who Howard was,

George Joannides had been appointed by the CIA to be a liaison with the House Investigative Committee 15 years after the assassination. And Joannides told all the investigators from the House Committee, I have no idea who Howard is. We have no record on him. Well, that's because Joannides himself was Howard.

He was then given an award for helping obfuscate with Congress and lying to Congress about his involvement. The CIA also lied about that as well. And in 1991, he passed away. But as a result of that dogged work by Jefferson Morley, trying to unearth those files, we now know as a result of Thursday's release that Joe Enidis was indeed Howard and he did lead that group and that's

what the record show. Mark in terms of why these documents that were released on Thursday could you connect us to the larger call for transparency that has certainly been ancient but is reinvigorated under the Trump administration obviously. It is. I can't say exactly why it was released on Thursday, but it was released late Thursday,

and for months, or better said, for years, these documents had been pushed for by these JFK researchers. Incidentally, under the JFK Records Act, there's a sort of a complicated process of getting a document or documents from an agency, having them go to a review board, and then having them go to the National Archives and then be released in what's called the JFK collection. The George Joannides files from the CIA was never supposed to initially been released

under that structure. As a result, though, of President Trump's order to disclose everything, this was put on an accelerated time frame. Now I can certainly understand, especially considering the CIA's past behavior, why people are suspicious that this was released so late on the July 4th weekend. And incidentally, speaking of transparency and records, we had another story in Axios that ran last night from my colleague Alex Eisenstead, where the Department of Justice has, in the Epstein case, decided, we're not going to release all of the records related to that. Oh, by the way, Jeffrey Epstein committed suicide.

There is no client list, and that's that. I think if there's one thing we learn from the JFK case, it's probably a good idea in these instances to over disclose, but the administration in this case has decided not to do that. However, in the JFK case, they are, and people who have been very critical of the CIA are saying at least John Radcliffe, who's the head of the CIA, and Tulsi Gabbard, the director of national intelligence, are making this series, taking the series. So the reporting from Axios is that the DOJ is saying there is no evidence that convicted sex offender Jeffrey Epstein kept a list of high-profile clients.

And talk about the complication of that for the DOJ and for others. There's been so much disinformation surrounding client lists, apparently, and all these other things that it's something that leaders in the FBI have obviously been trying to explain to the MAGA base, who don't appear to want to hear this. Well, they don't. Cash Patel, the director of the FBI, and especially the deputy director, assistant director, Dan Bongino, he used to be a podcaster and was one of the large proponents of the idea that there's an Epstein list, this is a cover-up, this reaches to the highest level.

Then he winds up being the number two guy at the FBI and now he's like oh I've looked at the evidence all of that's not true. So of course this branch is two ways either Bongino has been corrupted by the very conspiracy that he claimed exists or the conspiracy really didn't exist and it turns out that doing your job as a sworn law enforcement officer in a government agency that is governing is a lot harder than podcasting. And at a certain point, the facts matter. We don't have, obviously, all the access to all of the information, so we can't say.

Certainly Jeffrey Epstein, who was a person of great interest and was incarcerated in a federal lockup, having committed suicide when he was under suicide watch is very suspicious. However, the FBI has released what it says are the 10 hours of video footage showing no one went into a cell. So from the evidence we have right now, it does look as if what DOJ is saying is the truth. But once again, we don't have all the records,

and what we've seen in the JFK case is more transparency is probably better, not less. White House reporter for Axios, Mark Caputo, thank you very much. His new piece is available to read online right now. And coming up, Steve Ratner says the president's massive spending bill will lead to rising inequality and worsen our already troubling deficit and debt levels.

Steve joins us with charts next on Morning Joe. And one wax with the left field and Bellager makes a brilliant shoestring catch. Lindor is doubled on first base. Oh wow. It's Cody Bellager with a pivotal double play for the New York Yankees in the seventh inning, making a clutch catch in left field of a one-soto liner, a one-soto liner from a bat of a man not going to the All-Star game and having Francisco Lindor at first base.

Aaron Judge hit his 33rd home run of the season and the Yankees beat their Crosstown rivals, the Mets, six to four yesterday to snap a six-game skid and avoid a weekend subway series. And Pablo, I just have to go to you before we get along with more sports. I mean, the Yankees have been folding like a rusty lawn chair

under the weight of William Howard Taft's 340 pound frame. Except of course, it's been a lot less entertaining than watching the former president collapse in a rusty lawn chair. But they dropped out of first place. The Blue Jays refused to lose and here come those Red Sox. Yeah it does feel like we've been stuck in a bathtub of our own design a bit to continue your presidential metaphor.

I'm looking up at Canada in this context not the greatest feeling I do like how every back page today is about basically we escaped. We slid under we New York Yankees slid under the blast door before you know everything blew up. But in terms of the big picture Joe

you alluded to the All-Star stuff. I want to get to that because the league has revealed now the full rosters for next week's All-Star game in Atlanta. That's right. It's the Midsummer Classic already and the list features 19 first timers. This is down from the 32 first-time selections on the initial rosters for last year's

showcase. The youngest of the bunch being a 22 year old Washington National star named James Wood. Of course the Red Sox just took care of the Nationals as you alluded to as well. The Los Angeles Dodgers are leading all teams with five representatives, including Clayton Kershaw, the left-hander who is vexed in the postseason, but not so problematic in the regular season. He was named to his 11th National League roster as a special commissioner's selection.

Love a made-up honor that you get to bring in a guy like that. Nonetheless, among the standout players who did not get such a designation of any kind is Juan Soto. Joe, we talk about all the time here, the Mets outfielder who signed, yes, the largest contract in the history of sports, seven hundred and sixty five million dollars as a free agent this past offseason.

So you know, there is that. Anybody anybody not make the list that you think should be there? Yeah, personally, I think there are a number of New York Yankees, Joe, that didn't necessarily get the nod that they deserve. My petition is ongoing, and the commissioner will hear about it from my private office via fax soon enough. Okay. Well, I've already faxed the commissioner and said Norvayas,

the standout rookie catcher that we got from you, should be in the old story. But what about USA-Mexico? I'll tell you what, Team USA in soccer just can't finish the deal against Mexico. Yeah, Lemire was texting me this late last night. We were both monitoring this game. The Gold Cup doesn't seem to go well for the Americans. And it's despite the fact that, okay, there are excuses. This is the third string. This is the fourth string.

All of that is so. But when it comes to the first step, Joe, of American soccer, dominance feels too ambitious, but the road towards something like regional supremacy, as we host the World Cup soon enough, you gotta win these things. You just gotta start winning the regional Concord Cap Gold Cup stuff,

and they haven't yet, and so Mexico gets yet another. Really quickly, who do you like in Wimbledon for men's and women's singles? I think Novak Djokovic, Joe. The idea that this might be his last dance, that's been the storyline he was supposed to be done by now. I look at him, and I think that he's gonna push, to quote a baseball movie, he's gonna push the sun

back into the sky and get one last day of summer. I think Djokovic might just be the story against Alcaraz maybe as well. But I like I like I like the Joker. OK OK all right.