Morning Joe - Morning Joe 07/01/24

Episode Date: July 1, 2024

Debate backlash: Should Biden bow out?

Good morning and welcome to Morning Joe on this Monday, July 1st. This morning, we are waking up to a sea of headlines and opinion pieces from major news organizations, former party leaders and very loud whispers, mostly behind the scenes from present leading Democrats who say it is over. Here's a taste of the global call for President Joe Biden to get out of the race. The New York Times editorial board says Biden is not the man he was four years ago, calling his candidacy, quote, a reckless gamble. Editors at Georgia's largest newspaper, the Atlanta Journal-Constitution, echoed that take, demanding the president pass the torch. Quote, Biden deserves a better exit from public life than the one he endured when he shuffled off the stage

on Thursday night. And then there were the headlines, sneering, mocking, jeering all at once. This was the performance that has gotten us to this point. We have a thousand trillionaires in America, I mean billionaires in America. And what's happening? They're in a situation where they in fact pay 8.2 percent in taxes. If they just paid 24 percent, 25 percent, either one of those numbers, they'd raise 500 million dollars, billion dollars, I should say, in a 10-year period. We'd be able to wipe out his debt. We'd be able to help make sure that all those things we need to do, child care, elder care, making sure that we continue to strengthen our health care system, making sure that we're able to make every single solitary person eligible for what I've been able to do with the COVID, excuse me, with dealing with everything we have to do with, look, if we finally beat Medicare.

It was bad. He said, we quote, we beat Medicare. He couldn't seem to land a thought. It was an unmitigated disaster by any measure. More than three days after that debate, it is still hard to comprehend what we saw from the president. The weak raspy voice, the inability to complete basic thoughts. Most importantly, the failure to call out Donald Trump on his endless lies. Where was that? And yet, the very next day in North Carolina, there was Joe Biden, back to form, finding his voice, his winning smile, the vintage sparkle back in his eyes, two appearances

that were as different as, well, night and day. I don't debate as well as I used to, but I know what I do know. I know how to tell the truth. I know, I know, I know right from wrong. I know how to do this job. I know how to get things done. I know like millions of Americans know, when you get knocked down, you get back up. So what was different? A little more sleep? Perhaps it was an event during the day, rather at night. On debate night, 90 minutes starting at 9 p.m., Joe Biden was fresh off back-to-back trips to Europe, first to Normandy for the 80th anniversary of D-Day and a state dinner with President Macron and then to Italy for the G7, followed by a flight across 12 time zones

to L.A. for a fundraiser with former President Barack Obama. Just 33 hours later, he was headed back to the East Coast. The debate was also two weeks after his son, Hunter, was convicted on three felony gun charges and faces prison time. President Biden painfully told America he would not pardon his son. I really question his schedule. It makes me angry that he was moving across the world on four different time zones. It seems to me this is a lack of discipline. These were important events that he was going to, but the stakes in this election could not be any higher.

Like many, I want to know, was this a one-off episode or a sign of what's to come? Can his team and the president himself move forward with more discipline and also manage the fact that he's 81. And while we're at it, let's talk about his age. Age is wisdom and experience that in the case of Joe Biden leads to more bipartisan legislation passed than any president over the past few generations and the largest expansion of NATO's alliance in history. Under Joe Biden and his age, America is stronger economically and militarily than any time in half a century. And while facts may not matter to Donald Trump and his friends in

the far right media, those are the objective facts. And that is the undeniable truth. Here's another truth. Age also needs to be managed. On my 50 over 50 lists, I celebrate women who are reaching their highest power well over 50, 60, 70, 80, even 90. And yet every one of those women are managing their fabulous age. I don't think it's over. This moment in the race fits the entire narrative of Joe Biden's life. In his personal and professional life,

Biden has repeatedly risen up from rock bottom. It's what we love about him. So many draw hope from his empathy and his ability to have perspective even right now, and to persevere when he is completely counted out. His list of losses and failures is long and would be unbearable for most. In 1972, his wife and baby daughter were killed in a car accident. He had been elected to the Senate and took the oath of office in his surviving son's hospital room to remain by their bedsides. In 1987, his first campaign for president came to an end and so nearly did his life,

when a few months later, he suffered a brain aneurysm. It was so severe that his doctor told him his chance of survival was less than half just to survive the surgery. And even if he lived, a long list of physical and mental limitations were likely. At his bedside before the surgery, he told his sons he was proud of them. And then Joe Biden survived the surgery, rehabilitated and didn't look back. In 2008, his second bid for the presidency came to another

early painful end. After a poor showing in Iowa, he finished near the bottom with less than one percent of the vote, his campaign bottoming out after another low blow. And yet the following summer, Biden would be back on the Democratic ticket as Barack Obama's running mate. Five years later, a year into his second term as Vice President, Joe Biden's son, Beau, was diagnosed with brain cancer, believed to have been caused by exposure to burn pits while his son was serving in Iraq as a captain in the Army National Guard. Beau would die two years later.

The second child Joe Biden would have to bury. That is the lowest of lows in Joe Biden's life. In 2015, another political failure, Barack Obama chose to support Hillary Clinton as his heir apparent and not even his own vice president. After numerous political and personal setbacks, Joe Biden may have questioned whether he would ever return to presidential politics again. And then came Charlottesville and the vile racist march by white supremacists and neo-Nazis across the UVA campus. As a direct response to what he saw as a threat to our nation's core values,

Biden announced his third try for the White House. And just like his first two presidential campaigns, he was staring at an early exit in the race, stumbling in the first Democratic debate after a broadside by Kamala Harris. He finished a distant fourth in Iowa and an even worse fifth in New Hampshire. All experts, just like right now, said it was over for the man from Scranton. No one has gone this far, finishing fourth and fifth and vastly under expectations. And when you make an argument that you're the most electable Democrat in the field and you can't back that up, that's a serious problem. There's tremendous amount of goodwill for the former vice president.

Very, very well liked in the Democratic Party. But you have to give a reason why you're running. Yeah, Biden's plummet has been really something to watch. It was quite an awkward interview on the set of Morning Joe in New Hampshire. Awkward for everyone on the set, except Joe Biden. As his political obituary was being written, Biden was joyful and ready to keep fighting. I still feel good. This is, you know, it's a long haul.

Any Democratic candidate who's beaten an incumbent has been someone who so far has been able to get a significant support from the African-American community. I think Donald Trump's demonstrated the last guy he wants to run against is me. I mean, think about it. He's kind of obsessed with you. I mean, mildly. I've become the object of his great affection. Our Joe Scarborough wrote a piece for The Washington Post at the time entitled No Matter How This Race Ends, I'm Proud of Joe Biden, which ended, quote, whether his campaign can survive. The body blows delivered by Iowa and New Hampshire remains to be seen. But as Joe Biden has endured worse and yet once again,

Biden found a way up from rock bottom. South Carolina gave his campaign new life and he secured the Democratic nomination. And the rest is historic. Literally. As president, his legislative wins are unmatched this century. The American Rescue Plan to help the recovery from covid, the bipartisan infrastructure law to rebuild the country, the bipartisan Safer Communities Act, the first legislative action on guns in decades and the Chips and Science Act. He expanded health care for veterans through the PACT Act. He signed marriage equality into law and he got the Inflation Reduction Act passed to address the rising costs of living and deliver historic action on the climate. He appointed and got confirmation of the first black woman to the Supreme Court. He protected the Affordable Care Act and provided billions in student debt relief.

He negotiated the toughest, most conservative border control bill in decades, only to see it get torpedoed by Donald Trump, who cynically didn't want a solution to the problem, only an issue to demagogue and campaign on. All the while, Biden solidified key international alliances, expanded NATO and rallied the world in support of Ukraine in the face of Russian aggression. Right now, he's managing not one, but two hot wars. Days after the October 7th massacre in Israel, Biden got on Air Force One to attend an Israeli war cabinet meeting in person. This after going to Kiev, Ukraine by train via Poland, despite the tremendous risk and difficult conditions. And through all of this, he delivered the lowest unemployment in 40 years, the strongest

dollar in 50 years, the strongest dollar in 50 years and the most successful stock market of all time. So now after Thursday's abysmal debate performance, President Biden finds himself at rock bottom again. It was bad. And again, a chorus of Biden doubters. My family and I, as you know, have known this man for decades and his family as well. And yes, I know them personally.

And I still believe in Joe Biden. I've learned that counting him out is always a mistake. And doing that now could be catastrophic for our country. Do there need to be changes? Yes, managing him, management to his schedule, changes maybe even to those around him. I'll also say America needs an explanation from Joe Biden and reassurance that the other night was a one-time event

and not part of a larger problem. and reassurance that the other night was a one-time event and not part of a larger problem. By the way, Biden likes to tell people, don't compare me to the Almighty. Compare me to the alternative. So let's take a quick moment to look at the current alternative. Not a hypothetical imagined new Democratic candidate,

the actual current alternative, who was across from Joe Biden at Thursday's debate, Donald Trump, the man who incited a political coup against our government and who indicates he will not accept the results of the 2024 election if he loses again, the convicted felon who faces three more indictments, the man who was found liable for sexual assault.

The man who was found liable for massive fraud. The man who brags about having ended a woman's right to abortion health care. A decision that is killing women and babies and causing immeasurable and preventable agony for women across the country. The man whose tax proposals could cripple the economy, according to over a dozen Nobel Prize economists. The man who would end key global alliances. The man who has promised retribution against his perceived political enemies. The man who on a regular basis makes no sense at all. When he sounds crazy and slurs his words and talks about batteries and sharks, why aren't there calls for Trump to drop out? Where are they? In the Philadelphia Inquirer, their editorial board did take a stand,

writing, quote, to serve his country, Donald Trump should leave the race. Well, there's one. But where are the other editorial heads, leaders who were so rocked the other night, who see Trump as so unfit that he should leave the race. Where are they? Desensitized, disinformed, inured. The fire hose of falsehoods has blinded you to what's right in front of you every day. Come on. Now, Joe, our Joe, is off this morning on a planned vacation on Friday's show. I should clarify, Joe said it may be time for Biden to consider stepping aside. He also said we should wait a few days to see how he responds. We're shoulder to shoulder on that. I do agree. Joe Biden has work to do. He has to do better. His team has to do a lot better. I'm just not ready, though, to count Joe Biden out. Not even close. Just as Joe and I were

stunned by the president's poor performance on the debate stage, we've also been surprised by the level of animosity toward Donald Trump from people who once supported him. The debate acted as a wake up call that was a loss for Joe Biden, no question, but not a win for Trump. The choice is one terribly bad night versus a decade of destruction to our core beliefs, our democratic values, and yes, our constitution. Someone who stumbled over his words for 90 minutes versus someone who lied to the American people over and over again. A man slowed down by a cold versus a man with a cold, vile and merciless heart. I think in the days and weeks ahead, as we move away from this debate, clarity will hopefully set in. For me, Joe Biden is still the man for this moment.

I believe a setback is nothing more than a setup for a comeback. And the reality is Joe Biden has confronted and had to come back from tragedy, from trials, from tribulations throughout his entire life. So the moment that we're in right now is a comeback moment.

I'm saying to you that I support the Biden-Harris ticket. I'm not abandoning Joe Biden right now for any speculation. Biden-Harris, both of them, I'm enthusiastically supporting them, as are many of our grassroots people. I've spent time around three different presidents, Margaret, and I will tell you that the president's job is enormously hard and involves all kinds of things, none of which are standing and doing a debate for 90 minutes on TV. I'm not so cynical as to believe

that the American people are going to choose a president based on a 90-minute debate rather than a four-year record of startling legislative achievements. There was that same kind of a freak-out after my debate, and, in fact, I might even say that I had a more difficult evening than the president did. And here I am right now having this conversation. And I really like to remind everybody watching that right now, Biden is one and Trump is still zero. And he's the only person that's ever beaten Trump.

Congressional Democrats largely rallying behind President Biden this weekend, at least in public. With us, we have the host of way too early White House Bureau Chief at Politico, Jonathan Lemire, president of the National Action Network and host of MSNBC's Politics Nation, Reverend Al Sharpton, member of the New York Times editorial board. Mara Gay is with us. NBC News national affairs analyst John Hellman. He's a partner and chief political columnist at Puck. Good to have you all with us this morning.

Jonathan Lemire, tell us what your reporting indicates. I know the family was meeting. What do you got? Yeah, it's been a consequential few days for President Biden in his reelection bid after that Thursday night poor showing in that debate. He did have a stronger outing on Friday at a rally in North Carolina and then followed up with some fundraisers. The Hamptons and New Jersey raised a lot of money. The Biden campaign had their best grassroots fundraising days of the campaign Thursday, Friday. We should note the president's much stronger outing came with the help of a teleprompter. He did not, of course, have that in the debate on Thursday. And then, yes, yesterday he met with the family at Camp David, and they were unanimous. They want him to stay in. We know

the loudest voices in the president's orbit belong to the first lady, belong to his son Hunter, belong to his sister Valerie. They are all unanimous. They want him to stay in this, to not go out with that showing on Thursday, staying across from a man they all despise. But they recognize he didn't do well. There has been some finger pointing here at staff. They think there's some questions about how debate prep went. They think he was perhaps too focused on statistics, not enough on performance. But by the president's own admission, he said so, that he knows he didn't do well and they know they have work to do. And right now they're trying to reassure Democrats to get them to stay with him in this. And Reverend Al,

we're waiting now. Fundraising numbers, good so far. Democrats in public staying with him. We're waiting for polls. We haven't seen any real polling yet in the battleground states since the debate. We did have one from CBS over the weekend. Eye-popping, 70-odd percent of Americans don't think the president is up for continuing this job. But we don't know yet if there will be polls in the battlegrounds that reflect that as well. Internal polls suggest not much of a movement so far. We'll see.

What are you hearing? You're so plugged in among Democrats and activists. What are you hearing about what should be next? I am hearing a lot, and I've listened to a lot. I preached yesterday in Winston-Salem, North Carolina. People on the ground are saying that the problem we have is Donald Trump. No one is dealing with the fact that the strategy must take into consideration that we have a man that is adamantly opposed to women's rights, voting

rights, that talks about black jobs like migrants jobs, which are considered to be very menial jobs, what blacks supposed to be doing. And they're taking them from in a debate. I'm I'm very concerned that on a couple of the occasions in the debate, Joe Biden couldn't finish his sentence. But I'm more concerned with the sentences Donald Trump did finish. So the question is, what are we going to do? What is the best strategy there? I was in Charleston, South Carolina, when Donald, when Joe Biden was endorsed by the congressman Clyburn there. In fact, they had come to a National Action Network breakfast I had for ministers that morning.

Here was a man who had come behind, I think, number four in Iowa, number five in New Hampshire and was considered dead on arrival politically. And he came back. So I can't count him out he had a bad night he had a terrible night but do we not say wait a minute he helped to preserve and maintain affordable care he fought for police reform with giving executive order on george floyd he raised he brought unemployment numbers down after a catastrophe that Donald Trump handed us, wrecking low black unemployment numbers. I mean, really, all of the things that was on infrastructure bill, all of this inflation, we're not going to give him the weekend to see if he can recover. I think that we cannot. We have to stop whining and start winning. The whiners and the winners are the ones that have to make a choice in this case.

The other part in our finish is that what happens if he steps out? We're going to have a riotous convention. We're going to have this crowd against this crowd against this crowd. All Donald Trump has to do is sit back, get a Big Mac and watch the Democrats destroy themselves. Because how do you come out of a late August convention of people questioning whether they're going with Kamala Harris or not, or the other one or the other one or the other one and unite that party in two months to beat Donald Trump? That's your options. So do you want to whine or do you want to win? And so the questions that you posed, I think, are perfect for Mara Gay.

And Mara, I'd love for you to respond and ask if the New York Times editorial board considered the hundreds of times, hundreds easily, that Donald Trump has seemed unfit and perhaps would be deserving of a call to drop out or resign? Yeah, so we have, over the course of ever since Donald Trump has been in the public eye, we have made clear that this is not a president, a former president who we supported. And actually, in our editorial over the past few days, we also made clear that were the election held today, our choice would be obvious, which would be Joe Biden. And I understand why that may have gotten missed.

I certainly understand that. But we do believe that the stakes are existential, which Joe Biden himself has made clear. And it is, in fact, because the stakes are so high that the board feels it's so important to have the best chance for democracy with the strongest candidate possible. The hope was that that would be President Joe Biden. And he is still at this point the presumptive nominee. And again, you know, if that's the way it stays, then I know who I'm voting for. That's an easy decision. And I believe that the American

people, I hope, would coalesce around that. But we also have to be clear and honest with ourselves about what we saw the other night. It is not the same Joe Biden that we saw four years ago. I think reasonable people can say we saw this with our eyes. You know, one of the things that has been most inspiring for me about Joe Biden, about the president, his life story is remarkable. Mika, you got into it a moment ago. He has come from behind again and again. When he's fallen, he's gotten up. His family story, his personal story, that's all inspiring to me. The thing that is the most inspirational, though, is that he has always known how and when to put country before himself.

And we believe that in this moment, that public service that he needs to do right now, the best thing he could do would be to step down and to allow a very deep bench of younger talent in the party waiting in the wings to emerge. And I think reasonable people can disagree on this. It was not an easy decision. It was not an easy conversation to have. But that's where we netted out. And, you know, we're waiting for the American public to tell us where they are on this. I can tell you I've been traveling the country for six months talking to voters. And yes, they do dislike Donald Trump more. But they are they have said again and again, Democrats have said that they wanted new talent, that they do believe the president was too old.

I also have to say some of this conversation has been over the course of the past year or so frustrating. I do find some of it to be ageist, but not everyone ages the same way. So there is no shame in being 81 years old. It is actually remarkable. He has been a wonderful president, hugely effective. But he's not it does not appear that he is the same as he was four years ago. And that is undeniable. But that at the same time, I think of all the different opportunities editorial boards

across the board could have told Donald Trump to resign or drop out and and and take that bold step. And yes, he's 81. He's definitely not the man he was four years ago or 10 years ago. People age and age is not the end of the world. Age actually, in some ways, can be valued. We can look at what Joe Biden has done in this presidency, and we can thank his age, his knowledge, not only from the work he's done, but from his failures in life, from his setbacks in life. You become strong. You become wise. You have perspective. But age, Jonathan Lemire, I would argue, needs to be managed and it needs to be dealt with in a way that is accepting of this process.

I celebrate age. I do. And I want to hear from Joe Biden about his age. I don't want to hear from editorial boards who have missed the who have missed the massive story on the other side or just seem so inured to it that they look at this as the end of the world. I see another version of the end of the world, actually, and it's what they're calling for. Yes, certainly Biden aides acknowledge that age is an issue. They point to the president's undeniably impressive track record of success during his first four years. Legislative record speaks for itself. But they can see the polls that Americans are anxious about how old this president is,

that even some Democrats who really like Joe Biden weren't sure they wanted him to run again. And John Holman, the debate on Thursday last week was a moment where President Biden could have silenced a lot of these doubts about whether he was up for the job.

And instead, he put them front and center of this campaign again. And look, Donald Trump, let's be clear, did not have a great night. He lied throughout. But, you know, that was all overshadowed by Biden's halting performance. So what does he need to do now, President Biden, to try to keep Democrats in line, to kind of tamp down the calls for him to step aside, to try to reassure voters? How do you this is a very, very important week ahead for him. What are your thoughts? So many things to say. To your point, the reason that the Biden campaign wanted to have a debate this early was because they are

the competitive race for this debate. But no one thinks they're winning right now. It's a margin of error race where they've had small but consistent deficits in the battleground states. They wanted to go into this debate, and they know in their polling and everything else that the questions about the president's age and fitness are in the foremost, not of the minds of Mika or Rev or other people, but of those very small sliver of people who are still out there who are persuadable voters who are going to decide the election. Democratic partisans are going to be with Joe Biden. People who are anti-Trump and not even Democratic partisans, but just think that anyone that Bernie from Weekend and Bernie's would be better than Donald Trump,

they're going to vote for him too. There's still a bunch of people out there, this kind of 6%, maybe in these six or seven states, who have seen all of Donald Trump's mendacity, have seen Joe Biden's performance and are still undecided. Those are the people, that's the ballgame, right? They wanted to go to this debate and put, to your point, Jonathan, they want to put to rest the notion of Biden's age and fitness. And as you said, they did exactly the opposite. And in the structural sense, every unpopular incumbent, and that's what Joe Biden is, he's a guy with a 38% approval rating, he's an unpopular incumbent, you have to try to make the race into a choice, not a referendum. And what happened was that Joe Biden put the spotlight on himself and his performance. That's just the reality going forward. He's going to be under

the microscope now on this question for as long as he stays in the race, whether that's just the reality going forward. He's going to be under the microscope now on this question for as long as he stays in the race, whether that's all the way to November or sometimes shy of that. That is a fundamental strategic failure of that debate. That's the cost of this, right? They didn't get to litigate all the things of all the lies of Trump, all the things he did. Joe Biden wasn't able to do that that night successfully. And the race is now even more than before a referendum on Joe Biden and these questions of how he's going to proceed going forward.

I got to defend just not because I have any dog in the fight with The New York Times, just the thing about the editorial page. I mean, the idea that The New York Times editorial page and others have not been outspoken in attacking Donald Trump for years is I mean, Mika, just to your point, it's not like anybody thinks that the problem here is that the Times editorial board has not attacked Donald Trump enough. They should take a look at the record. I think I think they've done plenty of that. I think that that the Times editorial board also, I think, is focused on beating Donald Trump and the concern that they have, along with in private. For now, a ton of donors and a ton of Democrat elected officials who say very different things in private than they do in public, which is they're worried that Joe Biden can't beat Donald Trump. It's not, this is not personal. This is not like they don't think Joe Biden's been a great

president. They think not that he's been a successful president. They're worried now that maybe he doesn't have what it takes to fight this race in the fall. And I'm not advocating this position, but it's what the weekend was, was elected lobbyists, donors, importantly, because they're going to fund this campaign if it goes forward, saying, does our guy, who we've loved and who we would love to see win, does he have what it takes to win? And does he have what it takes to govern for four years all the way to the age of 86, which is what the president's asking for, is another term that will give him four more years in office where whatever degree of slippage that he has suffered is going to not get better. He's going to age further. So there are people who are on Joe Biden's side who are worried about this. And that's the thing that the campaign is trying to manage now, is how to reassure people

who are not fundamentally hostile to Joe Biden or inimical to his interests, but are just concerned about the stakes in the election that the Biden campaign talks about all the time, these existential stakes. That's really what's going on here. It's why this discussion is so difficult. Yeah. And there's no doubt there's a difference between what people are saying in public and private right now. Also, a truism for a year now about this race. Whatever candidate is being talked about the most is losing. That's the issue here with Biden and Trump. Mara, back to you for a final word here on this. We should know that the Biden campaign is mulling, trying to take the age issue more

head on, perhaps a town hall, perhaps more lengthy interviews, stuff that he hasn't really done of late because they know they need to reassure American voters. You know what? That that may help if he stays on the ballot. He's got to do more of that. But the thing that I really want to draw attention to is that this has to be larger than Joe Biden. Joe Biden has been a great president. He's been a great leader in many ways. He would absolutely undoubtedly be a better president than Donald Trump. We have said as much over and over again.

But this is actually not about Joe Biden. This is not really even about Donald Trump. This is about American democracy. This is about millions of Americans who deserve to live in a democracy. And this has to be more, this has to be bigger than Joe Biden. And I just hope that in an act of public service, whether he stays in or steps down, he's thinking not about his own career and his own legacy, but about the country that he has served for so long, so well.

Suckers and losers. On January 6th, we were respected all over the world. They're taking black jobs. Put three great Supreme Court justices on the court and they happen to vote in favor of killing Roe v. Wade. It's been a great thing. My retribution is going to be a success. President Biden's campaign was up with that new digital ad on social media one day after the debate, after Biden largely failed to fact check Trump in real time on Thursday night. Joining us now to take up that mantle is former Treasury official and Morning Joe economic analyst Steve Ratner and his famous charts. Let's start, Steve, with Donald Trump's claim about Joe Biden's record on jobs.

Take a look. The only jobs he created are for illegal immigrants and bounce back jobs, a bounce back from the covid. He has not done a good job. He's done a poor job and inflation is killing our country. It is absolutely killing us. Steve Ratner, what's the reality? Yeah, I mean, look, just to set the stage, Joe Biden, Donald Trump rather committed more than 30 lies during the campaign. Fact check. I don't know how to fact check. I didn't sleep with a porn star. So we picked some other things to talk about. And this is a good place to start. This is a good place to start, which is jobs. And so this notion that the only jobs Joe Biden created were so-called bounce back jobs is ridiculous. So let me show it to you as clearly as I know how to do. So here are the here are the job numbers before the pandemic.

We had over 150 million jobs. The pandemic hit. Obviously, we lost a lot of jobs. We started coming back. And you can see that in June of 2022, so a year and a half into President Biden's term, we basically got back to the pre-pandemic level. So these are, you want to call these bounce back jobs, you can call these bounceback jobs. You can call these bounce-back jobs. But here's what happened after June of 2022. We added 6.2 million jobs to this economy. And so these are jobs that were created unambiguously under Joe Biden's watch. And here's something even more interesting, which is the job creation of both President Biden and Donald Trump, making the right adjustments for COVID. If you take out the impact of COVID, Donald Trump created 182,000 jobs a month on average.

If you do the same thing for Biden, take out COVID, he created 276,000 jobs per month, so way more jobs per month than Donald Trump created. And by the way, more than were created under President Clinton, President Obama, and so forth. It's one of the strongest job creation records in history. So there's also Trump's claim about the largest tax cut in history.

Take a look at what he said. What we did was incredible. We rebuilt the military. We got the largest tax cut in history, the largest regulation cut in history. The reason he's got jobs is because I cut the regulations that gave jobs. But he's putting a lot of those regulations back on. And Steve, what are the actual facts?

The actual facts is that Joe Biden's Donald Trump's tax cuts. I keep confusing Donald Trump's tax cut is nowhere near as large, the largest in history. And you can see here some of the largest tax cuts in history. The famous Ronald Reagan tax cut of 1981. President Obama had two tax cuts during his watch. This tax cut, which actually was passed in 64, we call it the Kennedy tax cut because he was trying for it. And here's President Trump all the way down here, Donald Trump all the way down here with the TCGA at six tenths of a percent measured against GDP, which is the proper way to measure to measure tax cuts. And then he talks

about how he was ready to start paying down the debt. This is completely laughable. The deficit was actually going up even before COVID hit because of Donald Trump's tax cut. And so when you put it all together, Donald Trump added $4.8 trillion of non-COVID. Again, we're trying to adjust for COVID. $4.8 trillion of non-COVID debt to our national debt. Joe Biden has added $2. trillion dollars of non-COVID debt to our national debt in roughly the same period of time. And so that the deficit and debt record between these two guys is, again, not even close. And one more thing. There were many, but we'll just do these. Donald Trump also had this to say about crime connected to immigration. Take a listen. He's the one that

killed people with a bad water, including hundreds of thousands of people dying and also killing our citizens when they come in. We we are living right now in a rat's nest. They're killing our people in New York, in California and every state in the union because we don't have borders anymore. Every state is now a border. And because of his ridiculous, insane and very stupid policies, people are coming in and they're killing our citizens at a level that we've never seen. We call it migrant crime. I call it Biden migrant crime. They're killing our citizens at a level that we've never seen before.

Steve, what's the reality about the rat's nest that we are living in? You know, Trump's ability to lie with a completely straight face and to say things that just are absolutely factually inaccurate without even blinking is quite amazing. So let's talk about overall crime first. First of all, and I'm using violent crime here as a proxy, but you'd see similar things at other kinds of crime. First of all, and I'm using violent crime here as a proxy, but you'd see similar things at other kinds of crime. First of all, crime really didn't even go down much under President Trump. It went down a little bit, it went up. You can say this was COVID, but basically no change in crime. Under President Biden, here's what's happened to violent crime.

It's gone from 398 per 100,000 people, the rate of crime down 26%, 294. This is an extrapolation of what this year will look like if present trends continue, a huge drop in crime this year. And so the record on crime overall between these two guys, again, isn't even close. So he's talking also about migrant crime. Let's talk about migrant crime,

because this is something most people don't appreciate, which is that the rate of crime committed by both legal immigrants and undocumented immigrants is actually lower than that of U.S.-born citizens. So here is the crime rate for violent crime, a bit over 200 for U.S.-born citizens. It drops down for legal immigrants. And if you're an undocumented immigrant, you actually have one of the lowest crime rates. And among the reason for that is not that surprising in a way. If you're an undocumented immigrant, you don't want to get deported. You're pretty unlikely to commit a crime because that's not going to lead to a great outcome for you. But in any event, you see the same trends in property crime and in drug violations. Immigrants who come here, whether documented or whether undocumented, commit crimes at a lower rate than native-born Americans.

That has been studied many times. This is a Texas study. You can find it anywhere else in the data. Those are the facts. Morning, Joe. Economic analyst Steve Ratner, thank you for taking us through some of the lies told during the debate on Thursday night. In 2000, the Democrats challenged the election. They had every right to challenge it. It went down to one county, the hanging chads in Broward County in Florida. In 2016, yes, Hillary Clinton conceded the election. But then immediately after that began, you know, a what's still going on today, a smear campaign about whether the election results in 2016 were legitimate.

And so both parties have done this. As a country, if we want to move forward, we have to have elections that both parties agree to. Governor, let me just push back for a moment because therein lies the difference. Everyone has a right to challenge the election. Donald Trump challenged the election results. He had a right to do that. And yet Hillary Clinton and Al Gore conceded. Donald Trump has yet to concede. Is that not undemocratic, particularly for someone who's running to be

the leader of this country in the free world again? Donald Trump, at the end of his term on January 20th, left the White House. We had a smooth transition. And I think it's fair. January 6th wasn't exactly a smooth transition, Governor. Well, I think we have to say that there was a smooth transition and everybody in both parties is going to challenge elections if they don't think they're fair. Republican North Dakota Governor Doug Burgum, a top contender to be selected as Donald Trump's running mate, claiming there was a smooth transition of power at the end of Donald Trump's presidency. And John Hellman, he said, I think we have to say there was a smooth transition. Yes, if you want to be Donald Trump's vice president, you have to say that, because you have to say what he wants you to say. But if you could, John Hellman, please define smooth. Well, I would say it's easier to

define smooth by what it is, by what it isn't as what it is in this case. There was a riot. Yeah, I would say that that unlike every other transition of power in the history of the United States, this one had a riot at the Capitol where people died. So I'm not that smooth. And, you know, indeed, not only that, but we have a president who's now the nominee, Republican nominee, who not only continues to say that the election was stolen, continues to contest it, but continues to talk about how these people

that we're showing on screen right now are patriots, warriors for truth, that they were set up by the federal government that he promises now, and he promises now to pardon them if he gets back, including the ones that have been convicted and are currently serving time. So, I mean, the lack of smoothness to the transition continues to this day, nearly four years later. I will say about Doug Burgum, a man who was once quite critical of Donald Trump, a man who said a lot of negative things about him when he ran for president, that seemed quite sensible and quite tethered to the reality-based community. He's now a man who's openly pining

for a job whose previous occupant under the same boss was nearly hung on the south lawn of the Capitol. Now, if that's not a definite, it's almost like kind of the definition of if the only real thing you need to be vice president is to be ready from day one to be president. Anybody who wants this job is kind of inherently disqualified from having this job because anybody who wants the job that when the previous occupant was thrown to the wolves by the boss is someone who should be on a psychiatrist couch and potentially medicated, not considered ready from day one to be president of the United States, in my opinion. Certainly his judgment could be questioned. Another example of a Republican debasing him or herself for Donald Trump. We have more to get to about the default from the debate later in the show. But we also have a very significant day today at the Supreme Court.

Joining us now to talk about it, former U.S. attorney and MSNBC contributor Chuck Rosenberg, state attorney for Palm Beach County, Dave Ehrenberg, and national reporter for The New York Times, Jeremy Peters. Thank you all for being with us. Chuck, let's start with you. At long last, today is July 1st, and we're finally, we believe, going to get a decision from the Supreme Court about presidential immunity. Remind the viewers what's at stake here and what are some of the outcomes. Right. The question, Jonathan, is whether a president can be immune from criminal prosecution for acts he committed while in office. It seems from the oral argument in this case, which was held in April, that the court is looking at perhaps splitting the baby. Right. Finding that in the main presidents are like the rest of us. they have to stand trial if they've committed crimes, but that there may be some small number of cases in which presidents commit official acts which would grant them immunity. By the way,

that seems like the right outcome to me. And so I think the hard question is, what is an official act? Does it apply here? And who decides that? In other words, does the Supreme Court simply say there were no official acts here? There may be official act immunity, but it didn't happen here. And the trial can proceed. Does the Supreme Court say there is a small class of official acts which may grant immunity? And we want the trial judge to make that determination, which would entail more hearings. So very interesting case. A number of different ways that the Supreme Court could decide it. And the question that will linger, when will it be resolved finally so that a trial could proceed?

And that's what I wanted to follow up on, just the idea of timing. Many have already suggested that they've already made the decision. The decision is in the delay. At this point, by waiting to the very last day of the term, they've made it, especially if they do kick it back to the lower court, nearly impossible for Jack Smith to bring the federal January 6th trial to make it happen before the election. I think nearly impossible is right. The odds of a trial before the election is a non-zero number, but it's pretty damn close to zero. So on Friday, the court ruled in favor of former police officer Joseph Fisher, who was seeking to throw out an obstruction charge after he joined the January 6th Capitol attack.

In a 6-3 vote, the justices ruled that Fisher did not obstruct an official proceeding, sending the case back to the lower courts. So, Dave Ehrenberg, let's talk about how that decision could impact the dozens upon dozens of other cases relating to January 6th? And do you think it also could impact Donald Trump's? Good to be with you, Jonathan, and with the law firm of Rosenberg and Ehrenberg. If I could just quickly say something about Governor Burgum. Not only was he wrong about the smooth transition, but he was wrong that the hanging chads were in Broward County. They were here in Palm Beach County. It's like the difference between North Dakota and South Dakota. So come on.

And as far as the ruling by the Supreme Court, I don't think will affect Donald Trump's case because Donald Trump was involved with the alteration of documents. Remember the false elector scheme that involves documents. Jack Smith has Supreme Court proofed his case in D.C. with the exception of allowing the Supreme Court to delay the matters. He couldn't control that. And also whether that Supreme Court case will affect other cases. We're talking about maybe six percent of the cases out there that it could affect. So I think although it was a disappointing ruling, I think it is a ruling that will not have a big effect on the rioters and holding Donald Trump accountable for January 6th. So in another 60 ruling that came down on

Friday, the Supreme Court significantly weakened the power of federal agencies by overturning a 40 year old decision that made it easier for the government to regulate the environment, public health, workplace safety and more. The 1984 Chevron case gave federal agencies wide powers to interpret laws and decide the best ways to apply them. The idea was that if Congress passed a law where something was unclear, it would be left up to agency experts to fill in the details. And Jeremy, Friday morning, the political world was just consumed with the fallout of the debate. And this case kind of came out and perhaps didn't get as much attention as it should. Tell us why it is so consequential on its merits, but secondly, why this has been on the conservatives' wish list for so long. Right, Jonathan, this has been a longstanding goal of the conservative legal movement.

Often when we heard about what their goals were for packing the courts with as many right-leading judges and justices as they could, you heard about abortion as the litmus test. Well, there was this kind of overlooked but just as vitally important litmus test that conservatives would describe as dismantling the administrative state. You heard a lot about the deep state, the administrative state during Donald Trump's term. And what that basically was for conservatives is an effort to try to dismantle the accumulation of power that these federal agencies have had over the last few decades since the Chevron decision. That decision on Friday really put that whole system, these agencies from the EPA, there's regulations that govern everything from workplace safety, the social safety net that we have, pollution. And now what the court has

effectively said in granting this big win to the conservative legal movement is these regulations that have been interpreted by government personnel over the years in the executive branch might well just be tossed out the window. Yeah, certainly, Chuck. It's a huge win for conservatives. But let's get your analysis of the case and how it was decided. Yeah, so I agree with Jeremy's analysis. By the way, ironically, in 1984, when Chevron became the law of the land, it was something that the Reagan administration embraced because it enabled a Reagan administration EPA to pass certain regulations and interpret certain regulations that made it easier for business and for polluters, arguably. And Scalia, Justice Scalia, you know, the lion of the conservative legal movement for much of his career was supportive of Chevron. That's right. Well, and it had been the law of the land for four decades until about a week ago. But Jonathan, fascinating case. Remember, if a Republican wins or a Democrat wins, this is now the law of the

land. So these administrative agencies upon whom we have typically relied have less authority under either administration.