Morning Joe - Morning Joe 10/14/24

Episode Date: October 14, 2024

Harris slams Trump for refusing to release medical records, declining a second debate and rejecting a ’60 Minutes’ interview

He talks at his rallies about fictional characters. He constantly is in a state of grievance about himself. He has no plans for the American people. And then he just makes things up on a full-time basis with the intention to make the people afraid, to make people fear that which they should not be afraid of. But he does it in a way that he thinks, I think, will compel them to believe that somehow he is the savior when, in fact, he is quite unfit to do the job. That's Vice President Kamala Harris speaking with reporters on Saturday with a theme that she

carried throughout the weekend. Good morning and welcome to Morning Joe. It's Monday, October the 14th. And with us, we have the host of Way Too Early, White House Bureau Chief at Politico, Jonathan Lemire. Also, we have U.S. special correspondent for BBC News, Katty Kaye. So much going on in the news today. Katty, why don't you get us started in North Carolina? Yeah, Joe, I mean, it's been a super busy weekend out on the campaign trail. We're now what, just three weeks until Election Day, pretty much. Yesterday, Vice President Kamala Harris held a rally in Greenville, North Carolina, where she called Donald Trump

weak for refusing to do the things that every other presidential candidate typically does, including herself. He has no plan for how he would address the needs of the American people. He is only focused on himself. And he's not. But here's the thing, North Carolina, and he's not being transparent with the voters. He's not being transparent. So check this out. He refuses to release his medical records. I've done it. Every other presidential camp, every other presidential candidate in modern era has done it. He is unwilling to do a 60 Minutes interview. Like every other major party candidate has done for more than half a century, he is unwilling to meet for a second debate. And here's the thing. Here's the thing. It makes you wonder. It makes you wonder, why does his staff want him to hide away?

One must question. One must question. Are they afraid that people will see that he is too weak and unstable to lead America? Is that what's going on? We can already see the harm he's up to as a candidate. Most recently, spreading disinformation in the wake of natural disasters. Blocking real solutions that would stop drug cartels from crossing the border when he tried to kill and did that border security deal. Because you see, Donald Trump cares more about scaring people, creating fear, running on a problem instead of what real leaders do, which is to participate in fixing problems. All right. Well, we've got to tie race. We're going to get we're going to get to that in a

minute. NBC News poll came out yesterday, 48, 48. And so what we're looking at, I think, Jonathan O'Meara with Kamala Harris in North Carolina there is the beginning of a three week dash. I mean, we're talking about the beginning of, I think, her closing message. And if you look at it, it's a pretty strong message saying that he's afraid to release his medical records. He's afraid to go and do a 60 Minutes interview. He's afraid to do a debate. And then she comes behind and she goes to what Donald Trump's political sort of strength is, which is strength, power. And she says he's weak and unstable, which does seem to sort of pick at what a lot of people who even have supported Donald Trump say, going, I don't like him. Not sure if he's all there, but I may vote for him anyway. I'm curious, is this is this a

deliberate effort by the Harris campaign to drive this message home that he's weak, he's unstable, and they're afraid to even put him out there. Yes. And part of this is a hope to provoke him. And she has been effective at needling him, finding his little sore weak spots, one of which, let's remember the debate that sort of almost seemed like a throwaway line, although we've since been told it was well practiced, where she noted that people leave Trump's rallies early. Donald Trump, I don't think he's given a speech since, in the month since, in which he has not tried to rebut that. He talks about it constantly, about people leave. They don't leave early. They don't leave my speeches early. They don't leave my speeches early. And that was a sign to people in the

terrorist campaign that she can't effectively needle him, put him on the territory where she wants to compete. And she's doing it again here now, trying to turn one of his strengths, much like his crowds, hear his suggestion of his strength and turn it into a weakness, have him defend it, sort of undercut it, say, look, actually, he's afraid to do an interview. He's afraid to release his medical records. And tying that with their overall theme, which is simply Trump makes every decision about himself, not about you, the voter. He's shielding you. He's not. He doesn't he's one doesn't want to give you this information. He doesn't trust you. He's not

looking out for you. And that is her argument right now, as Trump simply goes darker and darker on the campaign trail. Well, and he does do that. And we're going to get to that in one second. Katie, there's also sort of this this frustration inside the Harris campaign that nothing matters. It seems when it comes to Donald Trump that he doesn't release his medical records. Every other presidential candidate does. And there's really not even that much of a fuss about it that he doesn't do the 60 Minutes interview the first time in 50 years that a presidential candidate doesn't do the 60 Minutes interview. He ducks that. Then he says that CBS should should should be arrested. People at CBS should be arrested for 60 Minutes editing an interview the way 60 Minutes always edits interviews. And then, of course,

refuses to do the second debate, even if it's at Fox News. And so it does seem that that he is hiding. And and so she drives it home with it's like they're afraid that he is too weak and he's too unstable to do his job, to go out there. How does that work with undecided voters, do you think? Yeah, I mean, look, that's the Kamala Harris we saw in North Carolina this weekend is the Kamala Harris that both the campaign and Democratic strategists that I speak to say that they want out there. That's the person they want voters to see who's projecting strength, who's reminding people about the weaknesses and the chaos surrounding Donald Trump. But I agree with you, Joe. I mean, it's remarkable that here we are three weeks out and almost nothing seems to move the needle and perhaps not very much has

moved the needle ever since what Donald Trump's was that first assassination attempt against him. And even then, it didn't seem to move the needle very much. So the Harris campaign just has to keep getting out there for three weeks and hope that incrementally, sliver by sliver, you can pick away at some sections of the electorate and hope that that is going to be what, you know, swings those. What what are we now seeing? Four percent of people who say they still haven't made their minds up. Who hasn't made their mind up? And it's it is crazy to get. We're going to be talking to Mark Murray in a second about this time tied race. I will say, though, I thought that was one of Harris's better performances in some time. It sort of harkens back to the early rallies right after she got in and you were seeing the sold out crowds in Arizona and Nevada and in North Carolina, all over the place.

But last night, that speech showed the energy I think a lot of people saw when she first launched her campaign. And if this is their strategy to end strongly this way and, you know, continuing to ask the question, what's he afraid of? Why is he afraid to debate me? Why is he afraid to do what every other presidential candidate has done over the past 50 years and go on CBS? What is wrong with him physically or mentally? Why won't he release his medical records? And the way she was delivering it, positive. And I think joyful, but also aggressively. I think that's, again, that's the tack she needs,

joyful and yet defiant. And I keep saying joyful because campaigns are about contrast. You see that? You see that picture right there? Kamala Harris, joyful. That is a contrast to to an increasingly dark campaign. And if you ask Donald Trump, he would tell you, yeah, I'm running an increasingly dark campaign. That is his intent. He thinks fear. He thinks loathing. He thinks darkness wins. How do you combat that? You combat it, again, with being defiant, but being joyful. And she seemed to strike that tone last night very well. Yeah, joyful, joyful and strong. Meanwhile, of course, you've got former President Trump, who was out in the battleground state of Arizona yesterday, where he continued this dark rhetoric against,

particularly against minority groups and migrants. So we're now known all throughout the world as an occupied country. Can you believe it? They said one of the papers said on another country that we are an occupied country. And you know what? They're not that wrong. But these gentlemen will unoccupy us very quickly. It's really no different than if we had a war and lost the war. But to everyone here in Arizona and all across the land, I make this pledge.

November 5th, 2024 will be Liberation Day in America. It's going to be Liberation Day. It's going to be liberation day. It's going to happen so fast. These are among the worst criminals anywhere in the world. And they come from all over. A huge number is coming out of jails in the Congo because what's happening is countries and continents, but countries are releasing

their prison populations into our country. And you know what? If I headed up any one of the countries we're talking about, I would have done the same thing. I would have done it even faster because who the hell can blame them? Who can blame them? And Venezuela, their crime is down 72 percent because they've taken the street criminals. They've taken the drug dealers and the drug lords. They've taken all of these people

and they've bussed them into the United States. And their crime is down now 72 percent. And it'll go still further because they haven't gotten them all out. But they're coming and they've taken their prisons and their prisons are way down, lowest number they've had in many, many decades because they've moved all of their prisoners. And these are hardened people. They know better than anybody who they are. It really it is really is remarkable if you sit and watch him, Jonathan Lemire, you you see this has happened with Orban. This has happened with other illiberal leaders where they make up, you know, they find the enemy, they make the enemy up. I've said this before. Again, you don't have to, people don't have to like the facts. If they don't like facts, they can make things up. I mean, it's a free country for now. But as I've said before many

times, when Donald Trump was running around talking about immigrants flooding into our country and how horrible life was in 2016, illegal immigration, border crossings across the southern border were at a 50-year low. And now he's doing it again, and it's actually lower. It's been lower over the past several months than it was at the end of his term. One final thing. He talks about us being an occupied country. Nobody thinks we're an occupied country. They just don't.

And if they do, they're living in a different country. But you look, again, facts. Let those with ears hear facts. He keeps talking about crimes committed by illegal immigrants, committed by immigrants. Study after study after study, year after year after year, shows the same thing. Crime rates among immigrants are lower than crime rates among native born Americans. That's just like, you know, that's that's just as evident as. The score last night, I mean, you might as well say the Mets won nine to nothing last night

against the Dodgers. They just didn't. The numbers are the numbers are the numbers. And we'll get to that when Pablo comes a little bit later on. But yeah, but this there's no doubt this is a message. This this campaign has been reduced now to three things. And he's doing it because obviously he thinks it works. Number one, he's talking about illegal immigrants and he's basically he's saying that America is being destroyed by this invasion of illegal immigrants. Again, when he was the one that killed the bill that would have given us the toughest border security that we've ever had in the United States. And he said he killed it for political reasons, said to blame him. It's number one. So it's that. And then he talks about tariffs.

And he keeps going higher and higher with the tariff numbers, which, of course, will hurt working class and middle class Americans more and more because they're the ones that are going to pay that tariff tax. And then and we're going to talk about this, Jonathan, too, later. And the third thing he's talking about is how he's going to deploy the Justice Department to arrest people and stifle speech that he doesn't like. That's his closing message. And again, up to this point, it seemed to be working very well with his base because we are tied right now and we are tied because his base has come back home. He is lying. He is lying about migrants.

He's lying about crime. He's lying about the crimes committed by immigrants. That is his closing argument. His rhetoric is only getting darker and more dangerous. And it might just be working. His base is coming home. We have seen a little bit of movement towards him in some of these polls. It's still a tie race.

No one's saying that it's over by any means. But the Harris's momentum of a month or two back does seem to have dissipated. And Trump is here closing on these claims about migrants that simply aren't true. The mayor of Aurora, Colorado, Republican mayor of Aurora, Colorado, fact checked him and said how he depicts this is simply not true. The mayor said claims about the Venezuelan gang activity in our city and our state have been grossly exaggerated and have unfairly hurt the city's identity and sense of safety. This is an unreality that Trump is propagating. But the right wing media is backing him up.

The front page, the New York Post, yet again today, any number of times, days in a row now where we're seeing scare photographs here about gangs and exaggerating their impact wherever they may be. We are also seeing this, Joe, this is his closing argument and it's impacting, he's doing it from Colorado, which is obviously not a swing state. And it's his message in the swing states. I just was in the suburbs of Philadelphia over the weekend at a youth soccer tournament. This is basically where this election is going to be decided. And every Trump ad you'd see on television during the baseball playoffs or the college football games was about immigration. Every Trump billboard, and there were many signs all about immigration, taking our country back, protecting our borders,

protecting our citizens from the other. That's the message. And I'll say that the ratio we talk about anecdotal evidence, we talk about yard signs, pretty 50 50 when it comes to Harris and Trump in suburban Philadelphia that I saw. But every Trump message was about immigration. This is how he wants to close the race, whether it's true. And most of it are lies. Well, like you say, it's it's it's about the others. And so that's what he's locked into. It's it's you white Americans versus the others. And right now that seems to be working. Let's bring in NBC News senior political editor Mark Worre. Hey, Mark. So we had, of course, Joe Biden in the race, a losing ground to Donald Trump. Kamala Harris gets in the race. It seems to be tied up.

You have a debate. Harris gets the bump from the debate, goes up four or five points, and then it comes back where you knew it was going to come back to. We're three weeks out. We're tied. It's 48 to 48. And there's some really interesting numbers I want to ask you about. And mainly about Kamala Harris needing to lock down a higher percentage of Hispanic voters, needing to lock down a higher number of black voters. And also, of course, carrying on the other side of the margin, carrying a historic number of white educated voters. And it's just fascinating to see how all that's how all that's going to play together. Tell us what you got. Yeah. And Joe, you're exactly right. The timing of our poll is really instructive here. And when our September poll came out and had Harris with a five point lead over Donald Trump,

that, of course, was after the debate. It was after a really rough news environment for Donald Trump with the discussion about Springfield, Ohio. And now all of a sudden we do show a tied race. And what has occurred is that those soft Republicans, non-MAGA Republicans have come back home to Trump. In our September poll, they were lagging. Obviously, after the debate, after the discussion of Springfield, Ohio, our poll finds them that they are back with Trump. And that explains him going from 44 percent in our poll in September now to 48 percent. But Joe, you ended up mentioning the things that Harris has to work on with shoring up Latino voters, getting African Americans in the fold, white women. Our poll ends up having a really big gender gap where Harris has

a 14 point lead among female voters, while Donald Trump has a 16 point lead among male voters. That's overall a 30 point net gender gap. And what is kind of fascinating is that Trump's lead with men is slightly larger than Harris's lead with women. And if you, you know, her ability to get back in a lead, national lead over Trump is being able to have a bigger lead among women than among than Trump's lead among men. And so a lot of those demographics, this is the last three weeks of the race. This is why you end up having mobilization and campaign to be able to juice your turnout, to shore up your weaknesses. And we're going to see what both campaigns have up their sleeves over the next three weeks. So, Mark, talk about this closing message on migration and specifically the way that Donald Trump is talking about that. What impact does that have on whatever number of

undecided voters there are? We're looking at about, what, four to six percent who say they are undecided still. And talk about the general population, then talk about Hispanic voters and the impact that it might have on them, because that seems to be a little counterintuitive. Yeah, Katty. And so, you know, Donald Trump is leaning into the immigration issue because this is his strongest argument. Our poll shows him having a 25 point edge over Harris when it comes to which candidate is better when it comes to immigration and the border discussion. And so Donald Trump is going right into his strengths. When it comes to undecided voters, he is a candidate. And this was true in 2016. It was true in 2020. He doesn't really see as

somebody who wants to moderate. I'm going to try to win over the independent voters, Nikki Haley voters. He goes directly into his base. And that helped him in 2016. It didn't help him in 2020. And we'll see what ends up happening in 2024. And when you talk about the immigration issue and Latino voters specifically, you know, our own deep dive into Latino voters shows that Latinos aren't monolithic, that you end up having conservative Latinos, you end up having liberal Latinos, you have Latinos who live in California, those who live in Florida, and they are very diverse. But what has happened is that Latino voters are really split when it comes to do you want to see more enforcement, a crackdown at the border, or do you want to see a more path to legalization, a path to citizenship, the DREAM Act. And we, you know,

how divided we are as a country ends up showing just how divided the Latino community is and Latino voters are as a whole. Well, you know, it's so funny you say that, Mark. I actually, I remember during the 96 campaign, that's how long, I mean, that. I actually I remember during the 96 campaign. That's how long I mean, that's how old I am. But I remember saying that Democrats always made the mistake of thinking all Hispanics wanted the most liberal immigration policies out there. It's just not the case. Again, it's it's not a monolithic group. And that's something I think the Democrats have have misplayed often through the years by thinking it is. I want to ask you really quickly right now, because I'm sure whatever NBC polls say or other polls say,

people will be coming back afterwards and saying they were wrong for one reason or the other. Of course, we remember leading up and I'm going to show some clips later on in the show leading up to the 22 election just two years ago. We had so many people talking about a red wave, red wave, red wave. In 2016, we often got in debates on this set, Mika and I, with people who are saying there's no way Donald Trump could get to 270 electoral votes. We all remember the New York Times needle that I think was tipped over 98 percent for Hillary Clinton and then swung back. So you can only be so certain with these polls. Right. And so there's a three percent,

three and a half percent margin of error. Talk about that and also talk about the difficulty you all have sorting through and maybe tell us how you do it. Sorting through who the voters are, who the group is you're talking to, because, of course, in 20 and a lot of states, Joe Biden's support was wildly over overestimated. You know, we saw some polls showing him winning in Wisconsin and Michigan by double digit leads at the very end. And then in 22, like I said, the polls seemed to undervalue the strength of a lot of Democratic candidates and overvalued Trump supporting candidates. So how are you guys adjusting to that? It's got to be a bit vertiginous as you go into 24. Yeah, Joe, great question. And I, you know, I live in brief polls, but we can't actually say that these are precise instruments, that our poll shows 48-48 and you have to take it to the bank,

that that's how the election is going to turn out. Of course, ours is a national poll and a lot of these, the presidential race will be decided in the states. But one thing that we're trying to do is looking at what different turnout scenarios might end up being, because again, close races always come down to turnout. And our poll shows a 48-48 tie among Trump and Harris. But we also said, OK, well, what ends up happening if you assume a juiced out Democratic turnout? That is more women who come to the polls, more younger voters, more non-white voters. And we asked our pollsters to say, hey, what do our numbers look like if you assume a more favorable Democratic turnout environment? And our poll shows that Harris ends up taking a three-point lead over Trump, that all of a sudden that 48-48 tie goes to a three-point lead for Harris. But what ends up happening if you assume a better Republican turnout, that is a whiter electorate, an electorate that is more male than

you might end up expecting? And that goes to a two point Donald Trump lead. And so, Joe, you mentioned the margin of error of the margin of error in our poll is plus or minus three point one percentage points. We can't take these numbers as certainty, as precise measurement. Things end up changing. But most importantly, you know, we just don't know what the turnout is going to end up being in this election. And I think that that exercise that we end up having a juiced up Democratic turnout, a juiced up Republican turnout. Our current numbers show you the different kind of ranges of possibilities that might end up happening. And again, Joe, this is really important. We have three weeks to go and a lot can end up happening.

A lot end up happening in 20 in 2016 that decided that race. Donald Trump over Hillary Clinton. A lot happened in the final days of the 2020 race. And so we have to see what the next three weeks bring us. Well, I tell you, exactly. The British prime minister, I think it was Wilson who said in politics, a week is a lifetime. We've got three lifetimes left to go in this race. So nobody knows how it ends up. NBC News senior political editor Mark Murray. Thank you so much for being on.

I greatly appreciate it. And, you know, as always, it's it's obvious. It's simple. In football, it comes down to blocking and tackling. It comes down to the basics. In politics, it comes out that GOTV, getting out the vote, the side that gets their people out in these close races, win the election. And it's that it's that basic blocking and tackling. So if you if you want your candidate to win, you get out the vote. You knock on doors. You pick up the phone. You call your friends. You drive people to the polls.

You do whatever it takes. That's how I got elected to Congress the first time. We just kept calling people until they yelled at us and told us to stop calling them or else they wouldn't vote for us. And they said, what should we do? I go, call them again, knock on their doors again, plant yard signs again. And again, three weeks, a lot of people acting. Oh, we're three weeks is a lifetime in politics. So much can change in three weeks.

So this race is a tie. Anybody that tells you differently doesn't know what they're talking about. This could go in either direction. And if you believe that the future of America is resting on this race, and especially if you live in one of those swing states, you've got three weeks to figure out how to make a difference in democracy. And that is what American democracy is about. Still ahead on Morning Joe, I had the chance to sit down with second gentleman

Doug Inhofe on the campaign trail. We will show you that interview coming up. Plus, Charlie Sykes was the voice of conservative radio in Milwaukee for nearly 25 years. But then all the conservatives went away. Now he's telling us why he's voting for Kamala Harris this November and wants to talk to other Republicans

about why they need to do the same. We're going to be talking to Charlie straight ahead and I'm going to be having a conversation with John Meacham in 90 seconds. We will have a red wave, the likes of which they've never seen before. What can Democrats possibly do to avoid, forget wave, the red tsunami that is coming in 2022? I think we're going to see in November, not just a red wave. I think we're going to see a tsunami.

Elon Musk tweeted last night, I voted for Myraf Flores for the first time I ever voted Republican. Massive red wave in 2022. Here's what I would warn. The red wave is coming. Red wave rising. That is the focus of tonight's angle. It's going to be a wave election and you're going to lose the Senate and I'll bet you $1,000 right now.

$1,000? $1,000. Both chambers. Both chambers, $1,000. You got it. The red wave that's coming is going to be like the elevator doors opening up in The Shining. Red wave or red tsunami? What are you feeling today? I'm feeling red wave.

Okay, first of all, where's the red wave? Republicans swore they were going to sweep a red tsunami. That's what they told us. And we, to be honest, cautiously believe them. I just want to step back again and just look at this map. That's not a red wave. That's nothing like a red wave. Disappointing.

Let me be blunt. I've got to give a mea culpa. I was genuinely predicting that we were going to have a red wave, a tsunami. The only red wave possible for Chris today was what I was wearing. It was a triple. It was a triple. No question. The Republican Party needs to do a really deep introspection look in the mirror right now, because this is this is an absolute disaster. We love you. Oh, my goodness, do we love this man? You know, I used to say, after the first term of President Trump, we just witnessed one of the great presidents in American history.

And now I say, this is the greatest president in American history. But I think it goes further than that. I think we are in the midst of one of the greatest leaders in human history, and his name is Donald J. Trump. This guy right here. Wow. Katty, that's just, that's just that's something I don't I don't know exactly what to say about that other than it is. It's amazing where my party has gone. My former party has gone.

And they know. Praise Donald Trump. You're his friend. Don't praise Donald Trump. You're his enemy. Yeah, I mean, Carrie Lake's modus operandi right since she ran for office in the very beginning was to praise Donald Trump. It didn't work for her in Arizona running for governor. The polls suggest it's not necessarily going to get her into the Senate in Arizona either. She's way behind Ruben Gallego. So and yet she sticks to it that she has decided to pin her colors to the mask of Donald Trump. And that was even more extreme than I've ever heard her be in his fulsome flattery. She thinks, I guess, we'll get you everywhere. Donald Trump, on the other hand, says that the greatest threat on Election Day, the greatest leader, of course, according to Carrie Lake, that we've ever

had is not interference from other countries, but what he calls, quote, the enemy within. The former president made the comments yesterday in a taped interview with Fox News. He was asked if he was expecting chaos on November the 5th from outside agitators like migrants or people on terror watch lists. This is what he said. I think the bigger problem is the enemy from within, not even the people that have come in and destroying our country, by the way, totally destroying our country, the towns, the villages that are being inundated. But I don't think they're the problem in terms of election day. I think the bigger problem are the people from within. We have some very bad people. We have some sick people, radical left lunatics. And I think they're the and it should be very easily handled by, if necessary, by national guard or if really necessary by the

military, because they can't let that happen. Let's bring in right now Roger's chair at the American presidency at Vanderbilt University, historian John Meacham. Also president of the National Action Network and host of MSNBC's Politics Nation, Reverend Al Sharpton, an MSNBC contributor and author of the book, How the Right Lost Its Mind, Charlie Sykes. John, let's talk about a couple of things. First of all, I just have to say, again, he's talking about how immigrants are destroying our country, destroying our towns. We showed a quote from the mayor of Aurora that said the president was lying about the situation in Aurora with Venezuelan immigrants there. We, of course, know about Springfield, Ohio, the lies that are going there. We just had a former president and somebody who wants to be president of the United States saying that that when asked about outside agitators and illegal immigrants and gangs, he said the problem is the enemy within the radical left and says we should take care of them with the National Guard or the United States military.

Of course, both of those things being extraordinarily unconstitutional. He's also said that CBS should have their license revoked because he didn't like how they edited the 60 Minutes package. He also said that he was going after Google because he didn't like some of the online headlines for the Harris campaign. You can go down a very long list. He's talked about using the Justice Department to arrest political opponents and others. So here we are. We're three weeks out. The race is tied. I'm just wondering, for those people who say they're still undecided, what is the message to them when you have a candidate that's talking about doing these things that no other president has done? Clearly unconstitutional in our 240 year history. And then you have Kamala Harris, somebody who they may not like what she said in 2019 or 2020 when she was running in the Democratic primary. What is what is what's your message

to those voters? Is Donald Trump worth the risk? The vice president's campaign may not like this particular point, but I believe it to be true. I don't believe that Vice President Harris would fundamentally change the trajectory of the country in a negative way and probably not in a permanently positive way. That's the part they probably wouldn't like. But she is part of a constitutional consensus, a conversation that, with the exception of the Trump presidency, has unfolded in this country for a long time. And in many ways, perhaps that conversation, perhaps that consensus has not been commensurate to the problems we have. But it is, as Winston

Churchill told us, the best system we have, except for all the other, the worst system we have, except for all the others. And so the vice president represents a vote, I believe, for the constitutional order, for the rule of law, for a country whose politics we recognize. And it may well be that a lot of folks don't want a recognizable politics. But I don't believe that this handful of folks who, for whatever reason, have not decided what to do this year. I don't think that's their issue. I really don't. And let's be clear about who we're talking about. This is 43,000 votes in 2020. If 43,000 votes had gone the other way, President Biden would not have won.

More people will go to Yankee Stadium today to watch game one against the Guardians than decided the 2020 presidential election. So it seems to me the conversation we all have to have, particularly with center-right Republican folks who have a remarkable capacity, as do we all have to have, particularly with center-right Republican folks who have a remarkable capacity, as do we all. Let's be clear, this is a center talking, not a saint. The remarkable capacity to talk themselves into whatever they want to do. And there are a lot of people, Republicans, Bush Republicans, Reagan Republicans, folks who should be Cheney Republicans, who will say, yeah, he's Trump's awful, but I like his policies. Right. We hear that a lot. Or Trump is awful. But Harris, as you just alluded to, she's too liberal. She talks in word salad.

I mean, let's let's be clear here about how odd that comparison is. Well, John, you know, you talk about you talk about word salad. You talk about again. It's amazing. They'll say, oh, she flip flops. Then you have Donald Trump, who has switched his position on abortion like five times, says he's going to be the champion of women's reproductive rights, says he's against the six week abortion ban in Florida. He flips and flops and flips and flops and they go, oh, she flipped up. She said this in 2019 when she was trying to be really liberal in a Democratic debate. And there's still they're still showing clips from her and from 2019, 2020 in that campaign where, yeah, did he say some things that make you scratch your head in 2019, 2020? Yeah. In 2019 and

2020. And then you have Donald Trump who said things that really make you scratch your head on Friday and Saturday. And so is it worth the risk when you have a president who refuses to debate Kamala Harris, even on Fox News, when you have a president who refuses to sit down for a 60 minutes interview for the first time in 50 years because he's afraid that he's not going to do a good job? You have a president who won't release his medical records when every other presidential candidate has released theirs. Is it worth the risk? And I just I really said nothing to do with ideology because I'm far more conservative than Kamala Harris. Has nothing to do with ideology. It has to do, though, with a functioning democracy. You know, I've always I've always known whoever's elected president, if that person, whether it were

I said this between, you know, 2017 and 2021, people said, oh, you you must be liberal. I go, no, not liberal. I like presidents who respect Madisonian democracy and those boundaries from Mike Pence to Bernie Sanders. Because I know if if you have somebody very conservative or very liberal, if they respect constitutional boundaries, then you will have the United States Senate, most likely Republican coming up. That's going to be able to round off the sharp edges on on any candidate that respects constitutional boundaries. Donald Trump has clearly told us and it's actually been his calling card this election. He's not going to respect constitutional boundaries. He's going to do whatever he wants to do, whether Congress wants him to do it or not. Yeah. One of the things that's so interesting is and I think you and I,

you're more conservative than I am, but we come from the same zip code, roughly. You know, I haven't moved particularly. Right. I'm George H.W. Bush's biographer, you know, and now, you know, you can say some people say, well, you're anti-Trump Trotskyite, you know, and now, you know, you can say some people say, well, you're anti-Trump Trotskyite, you know, but I haven't moved. They have. No. And so and I don't want to point I don't want to point a finger. I don't want people walking into the street and gnashing their teeth and having to wear sackcloth and ashes. Leave all that aside. Right. We're in the conversion business. Just vote for Harris. And what I would argue is don't tell anybody if you don't want to. Right. I mean, if you if you go in there and

you're a Republican and I know it's hard, it's you know, this is part of people's identity. And when they really look at those names, they think, oh, you know, Democrat, you know, Democrat taxes. How about thinking Constitution when you look at Trump? And so I just think that there is a sane vote here and then there is a risky vote. And I just don't see what the what's the upside here of voting for Trump if you are, in fact, a center right person or centrist, period. And it's a it's a tiny number of folks who are going to make this decision. And therefore, we are in a moment, I'd argue, which is as important a test of citizenship as at any moment I can think of in American history. As President Biden would say, not hyperbole. Right. That's really not.

I can't think of it unless you go back to the 19th century. Yeah, it is. And again, the question is, is it worth the risk and not just for democracy? Also, I would say here's a conservative in me for capitalism, where you have a strong man deciding who who who are the winners are, who the losers are, where the tariffs go, where where where the attacks go against against trading allies. I mean, it's good. Good question about that. But, you know, let's bring in somebody. Charlie, Charlie Sykes should be a great person to bring in now. And it reminds me, Charlie, after Donald Trump first got elected, I would walk into a coffee shop every day and everybody, you know, oh, there he goes. Used to be a Republican every day. And I'd smile. I said, good to see you guys, too. And go on every day. And finally, after about three weeks, they just stop. They go, you guys do understand that we have voted for the

same presidential candidate likely our entire life, except one time. And chances are good, after Donald Trump leaves the scene, we'll be voting for the same presidential candidates again for the rest of our lives. But if you're going to pick one election to go against your habits, to go against your pre-existing prejudices, to go against what you've done out of habit, this might be the one election to do it. And Charlie, you've made that decision, haven't you? Yeah. And this is this is the pitch. I mean, I understand how it's hard for many Republican voters to to cross over. I understand that there's this partisan muscle memory and that they disagree on a variety of issues. But the point, I think,

that has to be made over and over again is that is that this is not a normal election. This is not Dukakis versus Bush, that this is not Republican normal election. This is not Dukakis versus Bush, that this is not Republican versus Democrat. This is not left versus right. We are talking about the possibility of the return to power of of a of a convicted felon, rapey seditionist who threatens to undo the constitutional order. And there's nothing conservative about that. And you've said this over and over again. It's not that you have left the Republican Party or left conservatism. Conservatism has completely morphed into something that's absolutely unrecognizable.

You're talking about somebody who kowtows to dictators, who wants to shred the Constitution. This is one of those moments where you say, OK, I understand that you are not changing your conservative or centrist values. I understand that you disagree with Kamala Harris on a lot of different things. But there's a moment where you have to put the country over party. And I think that one of the closing arguments, one of the most powerful closing arguments that Kamala Harris has is to say, look at the people who have been the Republican Party, who have been conservative leaders, whether it's Mike Pence or whether it's Dick Cheney or whether it's Liz Cheney herself, former Attorney General Alberto Gonzalez, all of these people who are looking at the Republican Party under Donald Trump and saying this is not who we are, as well as all of the people who worked with Donald Trump, who were in his cabinet, who were in his White House, who are saying we saw him up close. The man is not fit for another term in office.

So I think that the task is to convince Republicans who go, well, I disagree with her on this. I disagree with her on abortion. I disagree with her on immigration. I disagree with her on transgender issues. I disagree with her on tax policy. But that is ultimately not what this election is about. And it's not just the risk of Donald Trump. I also think it's the question of, do you really want to put America through this? Do you really want four more years of this? Do you really want someone back in power who has made it absolutely clear that he is off the charts of the normal American political difference? And again, it's a small

number of voters. But I think that the Harris campaign has made a very concerted effort to create a big tent in places here, like in Wisconsin, bringing Liz Cheney to rip in Wisconsin, the birthplace of the Republican Party, and saying this is not the normal partisan choice. You now have permission to do something that you probably would have thought unthinkable a few months ago. Donald Trump inspired a riot at the Capitol. Donald Trump kowtowed to Vladimir Putin. Donald Trump was found liable for sexual assault, which a judge later likened to the everyday definition of rape. And now he's out there day after day lying about migrants in the most racist and vile ways.

Reverend Al Sharpton, we I think it's important we're spending time on the show. We're talking polls. We're talking state of the race. We're also talking the stakes of the race. And that's so important. What a second Trump term would do to the judiciary, to the military, to the legislative branch, the consolidation of power in the executive branch, that Donald Trump would be president and he'd be president again after having gotten away with everything, defeated the criminal trials, survived January 6th, survived two impeachments, and now he would be unfettered, unchecked. Do you think that for voters out there, the undecideds, but also maybe members of the Democratic base

who are waffling about whether to show up, who aren't going to vote for Trump necessarily, but maybe just I can't be bothered to show up at all. And I know you speak to some of them on your radio show at the National Action Network. We saw a lot of polls this weekend about the concerns that the Harris campaign has with black and Latino voters. Do you think that there's an understanding there of the stakes of this election?

I think that that's the challenge. I think they're beginning to, but not to the degree we need to see the turnout that that is going to be required because this is a tied race. And I think that they need to understand this is not about whether you like Kamala Harris or like Donald Trump. This is about whether you want to do what is best for yourself. If we allow the boundaries of fighting for what we like or what we want or what we desire to be totally eradicated, which is what Donald Trump is talking about. Donald Trump's talking about bringing in the military around people's rights. I think that if we allow that to happen, then whatever you're dissatisfied about will not matter because it won't even be on the table. And that's what they

have to understand. That's what we've been saying on our bus tour to people. There's nonpartisan, but we're saying particularly young black men, you will not have a chance. And Trump is telling you that because they're going to wipe out any kind of due process. He's saying, I'm going to punish my enemies. We're going to decide this based on politics. So if Trump is defeated the day after, Charlie Sykes and I may disagree on a lot of issues, but we're in the same boundaries of how this country is supposed to run. Those boundaries will be eradicated if Donald Trump wins this election. And that's what people need to understand. Well, the boundaries for democracy, the boundaries for capitalism, the boundaries for capitalism,

the boundaries for the economy, the boundaries for, you know, just just basic economic progress. Middle class and working class people are going to be taxed terribly, as a Wall Street Journal editorial page has said. Trump's tariffs are going to be crippling to this economy. And that's just a risk, as John Meacham said, that a lot of people can't afford to take. Charlie Sykes and John Meacham, thank you both so much. Hope you'll come back again very soon. And coming up, the excitement for a potential subway series took a bit of a hit last night in Los Angeles. Pablo Torre is here to break down the MLB playoffs and the big headlines out of the NFL. And Pablo is going to tell us

how the Cowboys can come back and win the Super Bowl. Morning Joe, right back. love looking deep on first down he's got a man out there wide open watson for a pecker touchdown quick crossover by you pitch it to naji harris harris sidesteps gets to the sideline naji harris dives for the pylon fakes to allen fakes to swift and there's commit It's first and ten. Pierce getting a block outside from Schultz. Finding room. There he goes. It's a foot race with Tavai and Gonzalez who pushes him out before he hits the pylon.

No, they give it to him. It's a touchdown. The 54-yard field goal from here. mayfield is going to get yardage and a first down to sean tucker inside the 15 and all the way to the house it's a touchdown from the browns 45 hurts complete wide open smith down the sideline davante smith into the end zone for an eagles touchdown get into that in a second oh here's a little trickery straight crowd back to on the sideline. Devontae Smith into the end zone for an Eagles touchdown. Get into that in a second. Oh, here's a little trickery. Straight around. Back to Gus.

Lee Flicker's got Laporta. Wide open. Sam Laporta foot race towards the end zone. Diamond touchdown. Those are looking at some of the biggest touchdowns from across the league yesterday. And then you got that 52-yard touchdown trick play, and the Detroit Lions blowout win over the Dallas Cowboys.

Little flea flicker. Let's bring it right out. The host of Pablo Torre finds out on Metal Art Media, MSNBC contributor Pablo Torre. Pablo, a lot of things we can talk about a lot. A lot of things coming out of yesterday. But, you know, the Cowboys just stand out. They've lost four games in a row at home.

And most of those have been blowouts. What in the world is going on there? Yeah, yeah. One of the worst feelings in not just sports, but life, I imagine, is when your opponent does not respect you. And that's what this was. Just for the bigger context here, Joe, this was Jerry Jones' 82nd birthday celebration. OK? And the Cowboys have lost four straight at home right now,

as you said, all pretty much blowouts. And when I talk about the Cowboys to America broadly, I always want to point out Jerry Jones bought this team for one hundred and fifty million dollars in the 80s. It's now worth 10 billion, one of the greatest investments in the history of business, frankly. And yet you feel like this. You feel like you're being played. I mean, being played. You're being fooled. You're being tricked.

They were putting the Lions, Joe, and I know they're your team. They were throwing to offensive linemen. Flea flicking. They were doing stuff deep into a blowout that indicated that this team, the Dallas Cowboys, should not be taken seriously despite being the dream of any good capitalist who owns a sports team it was embarrassing and the NFC North as a side note the Lions it's the Vikings the Lions the Packers the

Bears look good that division looks incredible right now boy they really do let's talk about uh though a team that that looks horrible and that's Deshaun Watson's Cleveland Browns. Is that Watson deal looking like one of the worst ever signed in NFL history? It's the worst sports transaction, I think, in general ever. And we could talk about the many, many lawsuits, more than 20, that prompts the moral investigation of that. But the introspection just as a decision is just ridiculous. And Joe, we put this into context, right? It's not merely that they chose Deshaun Watson and gave up three first rounders, six picks

overall, gave him the largest guaranteed contract in this indefensible way in the history of football, as you alluded to. It's destroyed the franchise, hasn't it? It's ruined the franchise, hasn't it? It's ruined the franchise. And you see it in juxtaposition to Baker Mayfield, who they jettisoned, who's leading the NFL in touchdown passes right now. You see it in juxtaposition against Joe Flacco, another guy they let go, who looks eminently capable as a backup in Indianapolis. It just reflects a lack of, again, at every level, strategic, moral, just, again, that capitalist instinct. It's self-defeating in the literal ways when it comes to this franchise. So the Bengals beat the Giants last night, 17-7, a pretty unremarkable Sunday football game.

And it was a fairly uninspiring week, I would say, in the NFL. I would argue the marquee game was the Battle of the Beltway. Not really a rivalry there between the Commanders and the Ravens, but maybe we're at the start of one. Ravens win. Lamar Jackson, Derek Henry, excellent. Jaden Daniels, though, another strong showing. Commanders come up just short, but nothing to be ashamed of. No, no, no. That was the game in terms of talent, where you're like, I want to see what this looks like when these two fighters enter the ring. And that's Lamar Jackson and Jaden Daniels. And you're right. Jaden Daniels looked very good again. Now, the bloom coming off the rose in terms of, OK, he was leading the NFL in completion percentage historically. He's still at a really, really impressive pace,

one of the great rookie seasons ever. But Lamar Jackson comes into this building, and what does he do? He has Der Derek Henry, basically this meat tenderizer beating up a defense. You have a running attack that can't really be stopped. And so the Ravens, who started off really slow, as we've talked about on this show, they didn't look great to start. They have surged to, again, an AFC North now that looks pretty impressive. Except for the Browns. Except for the Browns. So let's turn to the main event, which is the baseball playoffs. We're down to our final four.

The Guardians dispatched the Tigers. Pretty thrilling game over the weekend. They set up to play the Yankees. We'll talk about them in a second. But let's first, Dodgers-Mets. The Mets have this magical ride. It's just one game, but they hit a speed bump last night. The Dodgers offense pounded them.

The Kodai-Senge experiment backfired badly in the first inning. And what the Dodgers got, beyond this timely hitting up and down the lineup, they got seven good innings from Jack Flaherty, which rested the bullpen, which they had to use so much against the Padres. And that's a gigantic advantage for L.A. going forward. Yeah, look, I compared the Mets the last time I was talking to you guys to a wooden roller coaster. What is the critique of the Dodgers in recent past?

They're kind of like, I was thinking about this, they're kind of like that Ferrari that stalls on the interstate and you're like, oh, this is embarrassing. You pay all this money, luxury vehicle, big names and they choke in the postseason. But this game is exactly what you want to see if you're a Dodger fan. They have run, John,

a 33-inning scoreless streak. The Dodgers had three straight shutouts on top of that bullpen, which got rested directly because of it. They are doing exactly what you want when you have, again, as a team, incredibly well run. Otani had the longest postseason drought in baseball in terms of when can this guy get into a playoff game. And you see these faces, you see that applause. It's because it feels like the money is paying off. And it's been a long time coming for that feeling specifically against the Mets. All right.

Let's hope it's a great series and goes all the way. Our host of Pablo Torre finds out on Metal Arc Media, Pablo Torre. Thanks so much. Come back soon. Let's go Yankees. No. That's right. That's right. Thanks so much. Come back soon. Let's go Yankees. No. That's right. I said it.

Cut his mic.