Morning Joe - Morning Joe 10/19/23

Episode Date: October 19, 2023

Biden back in the U.S. following Israel trip

What sets us apart from the terrorists is we believe in the fundamental dignity of every human life. Israeli, Palestinian, Arab, Jew, Muslim, Christian, everyone. You can't give up what makes you who you are. If you give that up, then the terrorists win and we can never let them win. President Biden is back at the White House this morning after a jam-packed trip to Israel, where he promised continued support for America's ally and cautioned against rage-filled vengeance. Meanwhile, his administration is working to address the growing humanitarian crisis in Gaza, ahead of an expected ground invasion by Israeli forces. We'll go through all of that and get a live report from Jerusalem in just a moment. Plus the drama here

at home on Capitol Hill. The drama here at home on Capitol Hill, Willie. Also the questions about some of the reporting immediately following that tragic of of the hospital in Gaza. A lot of the intel, U.S. intel pointing toward the fact that it was an Islamic Jihad rocket. There are if you read The Wall Street Journal this morning, talks and transcripts of intercept between Hamas, where members of Hamas saying, yeah, that it's one of our rockets and talking about how the fragments of it don't look like an Israeli bomb. You have General McCaffrey and others looking at the pictures that have come from there. And so you just you look at the pictures. And as General McCaffrey said before, he knows about blowing things up. He spent his life doing it. He goes, there's no way in the world that that hospital was hit by an Israeli bomb.

And yet, my God, the news reporting was so reckless and irresponsible that, well, you have an entire region in flames now. Yeah, I mean, it's, as you say, let's take partisanship out of this and just analysts, people who study these things and know these things, like people inside the National Security Council, but also independent experts who looked at that and said, if a 500-pound Israeli bomb had been dropped on a hospital, you'd see a crater, you'd see mass devastation.

And that's not what the images we have so far have seen. We're going to talk to some of those experts about that. And why, as you say, is that important? Because that apparent lie sets off demonstrations in the streets and it gives Hamas a lie on which to base further attacks that Israelis attacked a hospital inside Gaza, which appears not to be true. The U.S. has assessed the deadly blast at a Gaza hospital Tuesday most likely was caused by a misfired rocket from Palestinian Islamic Jihad. That's according to two U.S. officials and a congressional staffer. NBC News consulted four military and munitions experts. One agreed with that U.S. assessment, which President Biden hinted at during his trip to Israel, while three agreed the blast was not from Israel. The experts were shown parts

of more than a dozen videos and pictures from the incident and its aftermath that have been geolocated and analyzed by NBC News. Some said the marks left by the projectile are not consistent with the weaponry Israel has used recently. Hamas, meanwhile, blamed an Israeli airstrike for the explosion without citing evidence, a claim that was widely accepted across the Middle East and in some quarters of America. As The Wall Street Journal editorial board points out, quote, Hamas may still call this a success. It's propaganda held up long enough to set the Middle East ablaze. And there is the problem, Joe, with leaping to conclusions and taking Hamas.

Yes, Hamas at its word about what happens in this war. Right. And sources, again, inside of Gaza that immediately report something that immediately goes up on websites, on TV screens across America, that, again, we have no evidence. Again, the jury may still be out. All of the evidence, if you look at what Wall Street Journal, if you look what NBC News is saying, the evidence points to it not being from Israel, but most likely from Islamic jihad. And we don't expect Hamas to be honest about anything. And we don't expect partisans to be honest about anything. We do expect, though, news agencies to be careful and not immediately just throw up the claims

of terror organizations. Slow down. Get the story right. So let's bring in NBC News chief foreign correspondent Richard Engel live from Jerusalem. Richard, what's the latest there? So it seems that Israeli airstrikes have intensified after President Biden left Israel. Things slowed down while he was on the ground in Israel. They have resumed now. People in Gaza are still waiting for the aid shipments. There was an agreement brokered by the president to allow 20 trucks to come in with supplies. So far, they are still on the Egyptian side.

And people we speak to in Gaza describe a terrible humanitarian crisis. They say the biggest thing they need is fuel, that a gallon of gas on the market can cost $35. This was a poor region to begin with. So people say without gas, they can't get in their cars. They can't leave the north to go to the south, which is something that Israel has instructed Palestinians to do. And the few independent journalists, you talked about the media, the few independent journalists, there are some reporters who work for NBC News and other organizations that are in there trying to verify information, are soon not going to be able to have fuel for their generators in order to get out to charge their phones and get pictures and images out. So it is an increasingly difficult situation, and we will see if that convoy comes in.

But we are also told from sources in Egypt that the convoy does not include fuel. It includes mostly medical supplies and some water. And water is another main problem because right now people are drinking well water, which is for agriculture, not human consumption. Richard, as you just heard, NBC News is citing several experts who've looked at the evidence about what happened at that hospital. No one on the ground, but looking at the evidence that's publicly available and intelligence as well and saying it does appear that it came from a misfired rocket from Palestinian Islamic Jihad and not from Israel. What are you hearing from your sources in the Middle East, your sources on the ground there? Hearing a consistent story that this wouldn't be the first time. A lot of the rockets built by Hamas and Islamic Jihad, which is another group

inside Gaza, smaller than Hamas, much more controlled by Iran. Hamas does have some local support, is an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood. Islamic Jihad was created more or less to be a counterbalance to Hamas and is considered directly beholden to Iran. It wouldn't be the first time that their rockets misfire. And once they break apart, they're damaged in midair, whatever happens, they crash wherever they fall. I covered a very similar story to this. The last time I was in Gaza for a Gaza war, there was a rocket that fell in a crowded refugee camp in Gaza. The people there immediately blamed Israel. And then later investigations revealed that it was another misfired rocket. But perception is often reality. And people on the streets are angry. They're not just angry because of this explosion at the

hospital. There are many other explosions that happen. There are many Israeli airstrikes that are killing civilians. And it is not just one incident that is causing this kind of outrage in the Middle East. It is the cumulative effect of this ongoing war. And there is this concern that it could only get worse and the images will get that much more dramatic if Israel goes ahead with its ground invasion at a time of its choosing. So far, no indications that that is coming. Today, tomorrow, we're not seeing troop and tank movements that would indicate something that imminent. NBC News Chief Foreign Correspondent Richard Engel,

thank you very much for your reporting once again this morning. And joining us now, former Chief of Staff at the CIA and the Department of Defense, Jeremy Bash. He's an NBC News national security analyst. NBC News Chief international correspondent Keir Simmons is with us and White House bureau chief at Politico, Jonathan Lemire is with us as well. He's the host of Way Too Early. So Jeremy, we'll start with you in terms of the conflicting information on the attack as, of course, there is efforts moving forward to create safe zones for civilians. What's the latest that you're hearing? Yeah, well, first of all, with respect to the intelligence picture on that hospital bombing,

I thought the United States did a terrific job coming out there very quickly and saying, based on three sources of information, overhead imagery, communications intercepts, and open source data, which is analyzed through powerful algorithms in U.S. technology systems. Based on those three pieces of information, we assess that this rocket came from Islamic jihad. And I actually think the U.S. was pretty forceful in its pushback there. I take Joe's point, and I've been talking about it as well. It was reckless. It was irresponsible to let the lie get halfway around the world before the truth got its boots on. But this is an information operations war, and it's part of the battle space now where you have to contend with lies, misinformation, and disinformation.

And unfortunately, too many journalists automatically credited the Gaza health ministry, which is, of course, run by Hamas. So this was a I think an important kind of alarm that should go off in everybody's mind that when Hamas makes a claim, you have to take it with a pound of salt. You have to really validate it, because unfortunately, as you know, there were real consequences. You know, crowds gathered outside embassies. People could have gotten hurt. People could have gotten killed. And the Arabs missed an entire opportunity to sit down with the president of the United States over what turned out to be misinformation and a lie. Yeah, and certainly we'll dive into more of that later in the show. But the cancellation of that summit in Jordan, Jordan, really a setback for what the White House hoped to do on this trip, as though they were very pleased with the message they were able to deliver with Israel. Akir, let's take a step back here.

And the backdrop to what we're seeing in the Middle East, President Putin of Russia is in China meeting with Xi Jinping, his foreign minister, Sergey Lavrov, meeting with Kim Jong-un of North Korea. We know the role that Iran is playing here, at least nominally in supporting some of the violence in the Middle East. There seems like a real new world order being shaped. And that is even before the ramifications in the Middle East after Israel does go into Gaza. We certainly expect violence to follow. Give us your take. Yeah, I mean, that's what President Putin and President Xi are hoping for. Just to pick up

on the conversation you guys are having, because I think there's another aspect to this that is important. And that is this. It's not just in the US that information and media is splintered. That's happened around the world. It's not just in the US that there is opinion as opposed to just reporting. That's happened around the world. And the impact of that is that the impact of that is that the hospital bombing was being talked about in the Arab world on Arab media within minutes of it happening. It didn't need Hamas to encourage the conclusions. And frankly, talking to Arab sources yesterday, it was like the lid coming off a pressure cooker. I mean, I think that to some extent, we just didn't notice that MBS in Saudi Arabia kept Antony Blinken waiting. We just didn't, we haven't necessarily understood enough the level of anger in the Arab world. And the Jordanians, I think, frankly, had no choice but to call that summit off. And I'll

tell you why. Because Arab leaders are very, very worried about the Arab street, about people coming out into the streets from Cairo to Beirut, because many of them remember the Arab Spring. And I thought it was interesting to hear the Jordanian foreign minister yesterday talking to Lester Holt. When he was asked, do you really think that this was an israeli missile that hit the hospital he says that he said that's what people think he didn't ask the question directly he said that's what people think and i think that's extremely revealing because and he said

then said it'll take a lot for them to believe that it's not the israelis and that was an extremely revealing answer because it told you that the jians, the Egyptians, the Lebanese, they're all incredibly worried about what the Arabs on the street think. Now, just to go back to your question about, you know, President Xi and President Putin, I mean, clearly the Russians know the Middle East very, very well, the Chinese less so. But what they're doing is they're sitting on the sidelines, signaling their support for the Palestinians, not completely backing away from Israel, but very clearly signaling their support, calling for a ceasefire. Why are they doing that? Well, you know, clearly they have security and

economic interests in the Arab world. Just look at, for example, Russia's relationship with OPEC. But on top of that, they also see an opportunity to double down on the message that they've been trying to, you know, kind of spread around the world over these years, which is the decline of the decline of the US. So just as they've tried to claim Putin yesterday, just yesterday, trying to claim that the US giving weapons to Ukraine will prolong the agony in Ukraine. That's what Putin said. The same kind of message with weapons to Ukraine will prolong the agony in Ukraine. That's what Putin said. The same kind of message with Israel.

You know, the U.S. supporting Israel just makes everything worse. So I think we really do have to understand what Russia and China are trying to do here, even if plainly we don't agree with it. You know, Willie, I want to circle back to Jordan and I want to circle back to King Abdullah, who who gets a billion dollars a year from the United States, who knows the truth. And despite the fact King Abdullah knows the truth, he calls this a war crime, a shame on humanity, blames it on Israel. I mean, I understand he's he's dealing with misinformation that's been spread across the Middle East. I understand that's been the story for years, the misinformation that's spread across the Middle East. At the same time, a guy getting a billion dollars a year from us, the United States, Jordan, spreading that lie.

It's one thing to say it's a tragedy and we need to put off the summit, but to deliberately lie and spread that lie around his own country. My God, if that's an ally, I'd hate to see an enemy. Yeah, you're right. We get a billion dollars of aid. And Jordan, not alone. The Saudis jumped out immediately on the story that it was Israel. The Emiratis jumped out immediately that it was Israel that attacked the hospital because, as Kier points out, they're speaking to the street, they're speaking to their people. And it worked, by the way. People were out in the streets yesterday threatening embassies across the Middle East of the United States and Israel.

And Jonathan Lemire, the president's visit yesterday, symbolic on the one hand, but also did achieve the opening or the hopefully the opening of that Rafah crossing for a time anyway to get some humanitarian aid in from Egypt into Gaza to help some of the civilians there. But how does the White House feel the trip went? How important was it for him to be there? It was a partial success. They got word of the cancellation of the Jordan summit because of the hospital explosion, literally as the presidential motorcade was pulling up to Air Force One at Joint Base Andrews. And there was a quick conversation of whether or not to cancel the trip entirely. And very much the answer was no. They felt like it was important to still go to go to Israel to show support.

But they understood that that meant that the only image coming out of the trip would be Biden with hugging Bibi Netanyahu, the prime minister of Israel, and how that would be received in the Arab street. Events completely out of the president's control, but that shows the limits sometimes of even the power of a president of the United States when they're heading overseas. So that was, they understand now there's going to be ramifications in the Arab world in the wake of this false report about the hospital and then the upcoming Gaza incursion by Israeli forces. But the other part of the trip they do think was a success. President Biden even came back on the plane on the way home yesterday to speak to reporters talking about that aid corridor that's going to be opened up in Egypt.

Those trucks haven't rolled yet, so we need to make sure Egypt follows through. But the U.S. is pleased with that. Obviously, the president spoke with first responders yesterday. Other Israeli citizens were really able to display some empathy to those who were there standing side by side. And Joe and Mika, an important message also delivered to Israel when he invoked September 11th. And he said the United States understands this need for vengeance.

When we were hurt, we felt like we had to hit back, too. But he acknowledged that we made mistakes along the way. And he urged Israel not to do that. And we're going to hear more from the president about all of this in a primetime address this evening. Right. And Jeremy, I again, wait, let's let's he wants to lie to his people and lie to the world, there's nothing we can do about that. If the Saudis decide they want to lie to their people and lie to the world, well, by the way, hating Palestinians and not wanting Palestinians in their own country. We can't do anything about that. But we're at the stage, sort of the September 12th stage right now.

And for the president of the United States to go over to Israel to talk to the leader and say, we understand your anger. We ask that you control your response and don't act on vengeance, but act on national security. And then to meet people who were impacted by this great tragedy, working for a Gaza corridor at the same time and humanitarian relief, I would call that a success. And if Arab leaders want to lie to their people, well, that's, you know, they're running the countries. They do what they want to do. We can't judge President Biden on whether they want to live in the lie

instead of actually talking about moving towards a framework of peace. So I say all in all, it was a hell of a great trip for President Biden. What do you think? It was a tremendous, I would argue, a towering example of American global leadership and how we can have an impact. I mean, the president landed in a war zone, standing shoulder to shoulder with an ally on the Wednesday after one of the most atrocious attacks in that country's history, even as the rockets are still flying into Israel and even as the IDF prepares for a very complicated mission to go after the leadership of Hamas. And so Israel goes to the war. Excuse me. Joe Biden goes to the war cabinet in Israel. He sits down. They talk about the operations in Gaza.

They talk about the region. They talk about deterring Iran. They talk about Hezbollah. He goes out with a strong message of reassurance. He says, oh, by the way, you know, don't overcrank this because we did, you know, CEG, Iraq, Abu Ghraib, other examples, you know, and we have lessons that we can share with you. But we understand the pain you're feeling and we understand that you're going to have to go decimate the leadership of Hamas in the same way that we had to go decimate the leadership of Al-Qaeda. We were successful.

We protected the country. There were no more homeland attacks in our country for the most part, for the better part of 20 years. And Israel's going to have to ensure the same or similar security paradigm for their country going forward. Right. Now, I'll just add to that.

I mean, I think that I'm not even going to give oxygen to those who talk about Biden's ability to function because you saw him once again. This is not the first time on the world stage going to a hot war zone or going to a NATO meeting or in this case, going to Israel in the midst of a hospital explosion, a summit that broke down. And in real time, President Biden and his secretary of state figure out how to orchestrate meetings with Benjamin Netanyahu, the war cabinet, first responders, victims, and nail it every step of the way, opening the door to conversations with Egypt about civilians and the presence there, Keir Simmons, the actual showing up and having the wisdom and the leadership and the relationships. It does help in the long game.

Just like you did in Ukraine. Exactly. It helps in the long game in terms of hopefully bringing Arab nations together to this. But this is not something a neophyte could have done or someone who's bumbling. I would say this, Mika, just in terms of the context, we are dealing with an incredibly challenging world right now. And not just the UN security vote yesterday, where France voted for the resolution, the US blocked the resolution, and a senior Western diplomat talking to me after that vote, it's the warning of a rift with the global south, with the developing world. Not just the fact that we saw the UN Secretary General calling for a

ceasefire yesterday while speaking at a conference in China. But just in all kinds of ways, including, honestly, that we do need to keep talking about the crisis of confidence in the Arab world, about US leadership, that the events of the past week or so have caused. And just to finally say, look, Russia and China's narrative is that in various events in the past 20 years gulf war september 11th the 2008 financial crisis the uh chaotic withdrawal from afghanistan are all part of the decline of the u.s um and they will be when president xi and president putin met yesterday

they will be saying to each other here we go here's what's happening in the middle east another event another marker of the decline of the U.S. And it's for the U.S. president to show that's not the case. All right. NBC News chief international correspondent Keir Simmons and former chief of staff at the CIA and Department of Defense Jeremy Bash. Thank you both very much for your analysis and insight this morning. I just have to say, Willie, and I understand, I completely agree with with with Keir's reporting on what China, what Russia and what Iran are trying to do. And when they say that and when they try to get that word out. But, you know, they underestimated the United States and NATO's response in Ukraine. You look at their economies that have collapsed.

You look at Russia, whose economy is smaller than taxes. You look at China, who's stagnating while the United States have a twenty five trillion trillion GDP. You can look at military budgets. You can look at every other measure, measurement. And the United States is doing well. But there is no doubt they are lining up China, Russia, Iran, North Korea as Axis powers that consider the United States their sworn enemy. And that is going to be a challenge for this president. It'll be a challenge for this Congress if they ever get their act together

and actually start working again instead of fighting each other in the Republican conference room. And it's a challenge for America. It's a challenge we're up to. I mean, we again, only, you know, as Warren Buffett said after the crash in 2008, only a fool would vote against or would bet against the United States of America. It's true then, true now. It is. And those countries made a very explicit show of the point you're just making yesterday when you have President Putin meeting with President Xi on the one hand and Lavrov meeting and shaking hands with Kim Jong Un, the leader of North Korea, of all people, and saying what a close friend and ally they are. said many times that Putin likes what he's seeing in the Mideast as it relates to the United States, because he believes that our support for Israel may in some way distract from our support from Ukraine and that he can pick up momentum in a war in which he has flailed. Frankly, his country has flailed for a year and a half now. All right. Up next, we are going to get the very

latest from Capitol Hill, where Republicans can't even pick a speaker, let alone tackle the looming deadline to keep the government from shutting down. For supporting Ukraine and Israel. Plus, Donald Trump's outburst inside a New York City courtroom. Why the judge in the case told the ex-president to zip it. We're back in a moment. It's only week three. The reality is, is that none of his behavior, which can best be described as performative, will change what's happening in the courtroom. We are here to enforce the law

and nothing will change that. No attacks, no words. I will not give in. I will not give up. I will only serve justice and enforce the law. Thank you. You know who that is. That is somebody smiling. That's somebody holding four aces while the person across the table is screaming and yelling. She went on to say it's quite clear in the evidence that he overvalued his properties. I say she's holding four aces because she's holding years and years and years of lies. This is part of Attorney General's civil fraud trial against Donald Trump, Letitia James. Inside the courtroom, the judge reportedly had to tell Trump to quiet down after prosecutors say the former president's comments were heard

across the courtroom during a witness's testimony. According to the AP, the judge then asked the entire room to keep their voices down, quote, particularly if it's meant to influence the testimony. Trump returned to the courtroom this week after attending the first days of the fraud trial against him earlier this month. You know, Willie, it is so sad. It is so sad what they are doing.

Poor Donald Trump says he's being forced. He's being dragged in there. To attend this trial. He's forced because they don't want him to go to Iowa. It's so unfair, he says. Take a look and see. He can't campaign. See if you can find the inconsistency. They want me to be here instead of Iowa, New Hampshire, South Carolina, lots of other great places. They want me to be here. Will you pass

Marbury in general? Probably not. I probably will have a very big tournament, professional golf tournament at Durrell so probably not. So Willie, they're keeping me from the good people of Iowa.

They're keeping me from the good people of New Hampshire. They're keeping me from the good people of Iowa. Four minutes. They're keeping me from the good people of New Hampshire. They're keeping me from the good people of South Carolina. I mean, he almost did a Howard Dean rundown of the states that they were keeping him from. It's so the injustice of it all. How could they be? And then the reporters ask him a couple of minutes later. So you're going to be here tomorrow, too, since they're holding you here.

Oh, no, I got a golf tournament in Doral. I'm going down to the country club. I mean, you can't make it up because see his mind, he can't even remember who he's running against. He thinks he's running against Barack Obama. So how do you expect him four minutes later to remember the lie he told four minutes ago. I mean, it's perfection.

You couldn't rest. Sometimes things are bleak. I get it. But sometimes you just have to laugh. I mean, it's it's absolute perfection. There is, Joe, that famous waiver in the New York court system. You have to be here as a defendant unless there's a tournament at Doral. And so many defendants have invoked that over the years. So he's just taking advantage of it. You know, I think even Chicago Al Capone said that he had to go to the Chicago Invitational instead of Jonathan O'Meara going to his court day. But no, this is this is again, you're talking about the lies, the transparent lies that are fed by Hamas to the Arab street. You look you look at the transparent lies here that they're kindergarten level, Jonathan

Lamere. And Trump knows they're kindergarten. There he is. OK, I knew we'd get him sooner or later. And yet again, and this lie, by the way, is being spread by Trump allies in the media. Oh, they're doing this to keep him away from the campaign. They're doing it. No, they're not. He doesn't have to be there. He wasn't there for his trial where the judge said he raped a woman. But he's he's at this trial because he knows he's busted. And yet he's so held down there

that when his country club in Miami has a golf tournament, he goes, oh, no, no, no, I'm going out to the golf tournament. They will not keep him from the good people at Doral, which I'm reminded that he proposed as a site for the G7 while he was in office because it was so conveniently located. It was so conveniently located next to the Miami International Airport. But I think the actually only consistency here between Trump showing up to the courthouse

from other days, but not this one, is because it's all about his money. And the golf tournament is one of the few sources of income he currently has. We are seeing here that, you know, he's inflated his assets. He's already been, you know, found guilty of that in a civil sense. And we're now we're in the penalty phase of this of this trial, you know, and he is going to probably take a real beating and have a lot of money he has to pay away. You know, so therefore, golf tournaments, whether it's live or otherwise at Doral or Bedminster or any of the other places are some of the few that he's still going to be able to to make money from.

And let's also recall, of course, he is there's a chance he's going to lose his ability to make money to practice any businesses in New York state. Well, Doral's in Florida. So therefore, that's another reason why he can actually still raise raise a few bucks along the way. Well, and of course, the question really, Mika, that observers of Donald Trump's business over the past several decades, the question that they're asking is, regardless of what his valuation, what he says his valuations are, which are, of course, we found out inflated because he's already been found guilty of fraud in New York state. Question is, if he's fined the $250 million that he could be fined. Right. There's a real question on whether he has that money to even pay them back.

Yeah, that would be that would be interesting if he did. Let's put it that way. Coming up for the third day in a row, House Republicans will try to pick a new speaker. And Congressman Jim Jordan is hoping the vote goes his way this time. But here's the deal, though, okay? He keeps losing votes. I know. So, like, he did worse.

Yesterday, he did worse than he did the first time. The second time than he did the first time. So is he going to try this again? Because he may just end up with his vote and a hound dog's vote outside the chamber. I don't know. It doesn't seem like everybody wants to give support to the election denier. Anyhow, I wonder, has he has he claimed this election is rigged, too? Oh, that'll be interesting. If that happens, we'll have new reporting on where things stand on Capitol Hill

and examine another option that is gaining bipartisan appeal. Morning Joe, we'll be right back. Touching your nose? I want to be here in the center of Iowa, New Hampshire, South Carolina, and lots of other great places. I want to be here. And will you be back tomorrow, by any chance? Probably not.

Probably, we're having a very big tournament, professional golf tournament at Durrell. So probably. No, zero. None. I ache for him. President Biden's sarcastic reaction when asked about Jim Jordan's bid for the speakership. Congressman Jordan lost his second vote in pursuit of the speaker's gavel, receiving just one hundred and ninety nine votes yesterday. The first time in nearly a century that a majority party's nominee for speaker has failed to get 200 votes. So Republicans keep making history. Yeah. The Ohio congressman is vowing to continue his bid, telling reporters there will be another vote today. Nancy Pelosi was actually very complimentary of the Republican Party for not electing an election denier and someone who is directly connected to January 6th. She thought it was a good day for democracy.

It was a good day. And, you know, Willie, again, he keeps he says he's going to keep voting. He keeps losing votes. Like I said, maybe, you know, maybe ends up with a handful of votes, hound dog barking for him outside the chamber, but nobody else speaking out for him. What's interesting is you have a number of different factions that are now voting against him. And one thing that I particularly taking note of some institutionalists, people that I even served with Kay Granger, who runs the Appropriations Committee and who, of course, wants an orderly process like, you know, we haven't really seen in Congress, you know you want to see bills get through there in a way that funds the government, that funds the agencies that do the things that Congress is expected to do. And when you have an institutionalist like Kay Granger voting against him and other institutionalists,

that's her saying, I don't think he's up to it. You know, you guys kicked out Kevin McCarthy for this. And so it's interesting. I expect the numbers will probably grow. Yeah, that's what it sounds like. If they go to another vote today, which they're supposed to, he's going to lose more votes. We've got more Republicans on the record than voted for him yesterday. And I was saying they'd vote against him. And imagine that, Joe, you have some institutionalists who actually want to get budgets through and get things done. Another thing that doesn't work is threatening and bullying Republican members whose votes you would like to get. Some of them came out publicly yesterday and said, hey, Jim Jordan and your allies, stop calling and threatening us. Stop having Fox News hosts and their producers calling and threatening us and saying you're taking names. Some members even said there have been security threats to their families because they haven't committed to vote for Jim Jordan.

That doesn't work either. Let's bring in congressional investigations reporter for The Washington Post, Jackie Alimany. Jackie, good morning again on this. We're going to get another round of vote today, we think. How's it going to go for Jim Jordan? Yeah, good morning, Willie. Well, I have to say Joe is spot on. You are seeing the institutionalists bite back, giving these hard line

Republicans a taste of their own medicine. Jim Jordan has said he's going to hold another vote today. He told us that yesterday after we were anticipating a third vote yesterday afternoon, but he's been unable to get his numbers down and lock in and flip some more yeses. And we heard from a range of members across the board, people, again, in the New York delegation, these institutionalists, appropriators, a range of people who are not necessarily united by any straightforward thing, but who sort of organically developed and gravitated towards this building coalition against Jim Jordan, who have said that, one, they want to get back to regular order and they don't think this is the way. And then, two,

they're against sort of the culture that Jim Jordan has fostered and helped facilitate during his time in Congress that has now taken over the GOP, this sort of knife-fighting, toxic, win-at-all-costs approach that has essentially destroyed any sort of hopes of bipartisanship in the House of Representatives. You have members who have said, as you just noted, that they've gotten threats against their staff, their wives themselves, and that this and that Jordan is squarely responsible for this. That is what John Rutherford and Steve Womack told us yesterday, and that they called the opposition against Jordan profound, that meaning, you know, unlike those 20 members who were against Kevin

McCarthy at the outset in January when he went through 17, 14 rounds of trying to get elected speaker, they all wanted something. This time around, these members don't want anything. They just don't want Jim Jordan. So we're going to see what happens here. There is some truth to this idea that Jim Jordan doesn't necessarily want to go on the floor and lose again, which is what is likely going to happen. We haven't heard of any significant people flipping in Jordan's favor right now. So we're

all sort of waiting on a potentially interim speaker, McHenry. But for that process to get started, you're going to have to see Jordan throw up the white flag. So, Jackie, as Jordan wrestles with this profound opposition, walk us through what could happen next, whether he pulls his name or let's say he goes to the floor and takes a vote. How many votes are they going to give him? Are we going to see a McCarthy style 15 round extravaganza? At what point do is there a push to go in another direction? And you mentioned McHenry. There seems to be some momentum there. How could that play out? Yeah. So there are a number of different ways this could play out right now. It does seem, though, that this is the ball is in Jim Jordan's court. He does at the end of the day have,

you know, not a simple majority, but a majority of support. And he is still trying to work over people despite this entrenched opposition. And so members are sort of waiting on him to make the call of what's going to happen next, whether that's pulling down the race altogether, saying that he's out, he's giving up, he realizes he's not going to be speaker, or it's deferring things to this resolution that David Joyce introduced yesterday to elect temporarily Speaker McHenry into the position for about roughly 80 days to January and kicking the ball, kicking the can down the road to then running for speaker again, trying to, you know, split the difference, make up some votes in the course of the next few months and jumping back in in January once McHenry's term, interim

term, expires. We spoke with various members yesterday on the House floor as they were in and out of the chamber during this second vote. And we heard from some Democrats who've said that they've been in touch with Dave Joyce and some of these Republicans who have been scheming and coalescing around this McHenry resolution who've said that they're in. They want to get back to work. There are some obviously very urgent matters at hand while the world is on fire and they're struggling to elect a speaker, but that what they would need to see

for them to actually take that next step to vocally supporting the McHenry resolution is, again, for Jim Jordan to bail and then to move forward in some sort of way at the lead of Republicans. All right. The Washington Post, Jackie Alimany, as always. Thank you, Jackie. Thank you so much. Thanks, guys. You could not create, you could not write a script to show how MAGA Republicans are less suited to govern this country than, well, what Donald Trump did for four years. But also what they're doing in the House and how ineffective they are legislatively while you have the Middle East blowing up, you have Central Europe blowing up, you have the government possibly shutting down agencies that Americans depend upon not being opened up. I mean, the clock is ticking. And again, it bears repeating to say

this is the first time I believe ever that you've had the speakership vacant because a political party, political party can't even elect a speaker. And the crazy thing here is they've been held hostage by six seven eight members that's why we're here six seven four percent of the caucus so i will say it again i understand we live in a partisan age but damn it get some democrats to work with you do a deal and roll over those eight people. Even if you put McCarthy back in there, find Democrats, do a deal, roll over these people and send a message to everybody in the House that this is never going to happen again, that the people's house cannot be held hostage politically by four percent of a caucus. The point has been made before, and it bears repeating, that this group of seven or eight that you're talking about prefer it this way, which is that

they are the insurgents, that they get to hold hostage their own party and may, in fact, rather be in the opposition ultimately because they can just fight against everything and say no to everything and get cable news hits and TikTok likes and all the rest of the things that they seek. But I guess it's a better question for you, Joe, as someone who's actually been there when things used to work a little more smoothly, I think it's fair to say, than they are right now. Why cannot this vast majority of Republicans steamroll the seven or eight that are holding the whole thing hostage. Yeah. Again, things have gotten so partisan. I remember being in Congress and always, you know, I'd walk in. As you know, I was one of the most conservative members, but I'd always walk in and I'd go sit with the Democrats because I know what the Republicans thought and I know what they believed.

I sat with people from different areas, from different backgrounds, different points of view and became friends. Even doing that, sometimes at the beginning, I would walk back over and sit with the Republicans. I go, what'd they say? Like they're like in another land. And that was back when even through impeachment and government shutdowns and all the other things, we still get things done. The Republican Congress and Bill Clinton got a lot of things done over those six years that we were working together. Balanced the budget four times, four times, four years in a row for the first time in a century, you know, in 100 years. It hadn't happened since the 1920s. Got welfare reform done, got tax reform, regulatory reform done.

We did it all together. And that's why I find it, Willie, it's just I can't comprehend how grownups can't work together and keep the people's house open if you guys don't support unanimously our speaker. And of course, they can't get angry with them working with the Democrats, because after all, these six, seven, eight holdouts, they were the ones voting with Democrats that threw Congress into chaos. So I just I don't understand it, Willie. And again, I don't know how grownups that get elected to legislate can't do a deal. And I'm hoping they'll do a deal or this even this temporary deal around Patrick McHenry, where you're letting me the speaker through the end of the year. You you you work with Kate Granger, the Appropriations Committee. You get some appropriation bills through there.

So it's not some huge, massive omnibus package at the end of the year that nobody knows what's in there. And they give you like 24 hours to read through, you know, thousands and thousands of pages. They need to do it that way. And I'm just again, every day that goes by with Israel, with Ukraine, with our own government in chaos. I'm just I'm just shocked that they don't figure out a way out of this. Yeah. John, there doesn't seem to be a ton of urgency about getting a way out of this. I mean, from the people who are holding it up, Jim Jordan's going to lose votes today if it goes to a vote, which leaves open really the possibility that Joe's talking about, that Patrick McHenry holds the job in a temporary way until the end of the year. And then we're probably back here again in, say, January among Republicans trying to find somebody who can get 217 votes.

It's been remarkable that even some of the mainstream Republicans went pressed about, hey, are you going to get this done soon because of the world being on fire? And like, no, we have to go through the process. No, we have to do this for our conference. And that's just so out of step with where the rest of the world is right now. I mean, some Democrats have signaled they'd be on board with a temporary solution. McHenry seems palatable to them. But the Republicans have to choose to go down that path. And obviously, governing comes first. There's politics here, too. Look at the contrast here. GOP, House GOP, completely in chaos. The president of the United States, a Democrat, traveling to a war zone yesterday, addressing the nation tonight from an Oval Office. It's chaos versus competence.