Morning Joe - Morning Joe 10/2/23

Episode Date: October 2, 2023

Trump to attend first day of NYC fraud trial

Are you concerned about America's reputation on the world stage, given the level of brinksmanship we've seen this year? Based on the mega Republican report, yes. Based on what my administration is doing now. President Biden blaming mega Republicans if the country falters and how the movement is endangering democracy. This as House Speaker Kevin McCarthy defied the right wing of his party and partnered with Democrats to keep Congress running. Now his job could be on the line. We'll discuss McCarthy's fate and who he may need to turn for help. Plus, hours from now, Donald Trump will appear in court in Manhattan for the start of a civil trial.

Scrutinizing his business practices will break down what's at stake as the former president faces off against the judge who found him liable of massive fraud. And Attorney General Merrick Garland gets emotional. See the moment he choked up during an interview when asked about political violence and why he says it's his gravest concern. Good morning and welcome to Morning Joe. It is Monday, October 2nd. Hope you all had a great weekend with us. We have the host of Way Too Early and White House beer chief at Politico, Jonathan Lemire and U.S. special correspondent for BBC News, Katty Kaye, is with us this morning. Jonathan, we were showing those stills of Trump with the California GOP banner behind him. I mean, some of the most unhinged things that he's ever said, and that is going a long way. He said at that event.

Yeah, no, he did. He first of all, he used some of George Carlin's forbidden words, which was sort of remarkable. The former president really working blue in California over the weekend. He reiterated his criticisms of Chairman Milley, who would now the outgoing chair and his staff, who, of course, he has suggested should be executed for treason. He has talked again about his ongoing criminal trials to the point where, as we'll get into later this morning, Jack Smith's team is re-upping its request for a somewhat of a gag order to keep Trump from doing so. He has again suggested that the process of the coming election could be rigged and the only way he could lose. So it is more of the same rhetoric from Donald Trump

in an overheated and perhaps, as you say, more unhinged way as pressure seems to be building, not just in all of these criminal cases, but this week he's likely scheduled to be appearing in the Manhattan courtroom and he may lose his entire business. Well, and, you know, Mika, two specific things he did where he mocked and ridiculed Paul Pelosi and laughed about it, had told jokes about it. And the sickness was, of course, that he's doing that, mocking and ridiculing an 82-year-old man that had a break-in

in his house and had a hammer slammed into his head. And just the worst, just a nightmare for any family. And the Republican leader is mocking and ridiculing an 82 year old man who was a victim of political violence. And again, here's the sick part. Really sick, sick parts. There are a lot of sick parts. But the sickest part is the crowd was laughing along to the joke. You know, it used to be that you would tell political jokes, you know, self-deprecating political jokes. And then my daughter walked up to me and said, blah, blah, blah. They like would pop up, put a pin in the politician and everybody would laugh, go, oh, he's just a regular guy. He's one of us. Here in Donald

Trump's Republican Party, an 82-year-old man having his home broken into by just a deranged attacker and then getting hit in the head repeatedly by a hammer. That's, first of all, a politician's punchline. But again, to showing how sick this MAGA crowd has gotten. They're laughing in the audience. Yeah. And on top of that, you know, he's talking about, you got to do these mother blankers. Like he's talking, you know, I don't know if he thinks he's like a rapper now. But again, this is, and these are the people that say, oh, we're upright Christians.

We support Donald Trump and we're yeah, they support violence and they want their kids going around saying the things that Donald Trump says. I don't think so. Since I've talked about it so much, let's play it. Together we will take on the ultra left-wing liars, losers, creeps, perverts, and freaks who are devouring the future of this state like a swarm of locusts. And we'll stand up to crazy Nancy Pelosi who ruined San Francisco. How's her husband doing, by the way? Anybody know? And she's against building a wall at our border, even though she has a wall around her house, which obviously didn't do a very good job. What they've done is they've gone after opponents so that if you become president or some other job, but if you become president and you don't like somebody or if somebody is beating you by 10, 15 or 20 points,

like we're doing with Crooker Joe Biden, let's indict the mother. Let's say that the Republican Party, they're laughing. They're this is the front runner. And the people in the audience think this is hilarious. And Republicans in Congress, many of them still walking the walk for this guy, Caddy K. It doesn't look very American. There are other countries that this might look like. But there is a cult like sense here and definitely an authoritarian one. Look, Donald Trump is still the show. I mean, why? I think something people underestimated back in 2016 when he ran was his ability to kind of combine his celebrity entertainment quality

with a smattering of politics and a little bit of policy that the base of the Republican Party liked. But key to it is his ability kind of to shock the crowd, to make them feel he's saying things that, you know, they would like to say, but didn't feel they could. And it's a rerun of all the things that he did in 2016. When he did it in 2016, the difference is that was the first time he had done it. Now he's still doing the same thing. I mean, you listen to that and it's a bit like a Trump rally from 2016. There's less kind of entertainment factor. Perhaps

there's a little bit less humor. It's a bit darker. It's a bit more American carnage style. But he's rerunning the same stories. I mean, he's going back over the even in that speech in California, he went back over the 2020 was stolen election was rigged idea. And you wonder when that starts playing in front of a general election audience, which, you know, we're almost there. He's almost just running a general election at this point. How how does it still work this time around once the whole country is used to it and we're looking for the policies for the future and some inclination of what a second term would look like? And there isn't very much of that. Yeah. And except this time he's saying mother ever. Right. Yeah. And most importantly, this time he's he's now so desperate to up the

heat, up the temperature, up the calls for political violence that he's mocking and ridiculing an 82 year old man getting beaten up and the audience is laughing along. Now, I mean, that that is something that he has sort of brought this party down and they laugh at anything and everything just because he said something shocking and don't understand the ramifications, the violence even that our country has seen. How they would feel if their 82-year-old parent or grandparent was assaulted by a hammer. Yeah. And was clinging on to life. And entire audiences were laughing.

No, it's... About their 82-year-old grandfather getting bludgeoned almost to death with a hammer. Again, we're in America. There's somebody mocking and ridiculing political violence of an opponent. I mean, this is so different from everything else. And I must say also, I had journalists that weekend, not just, but let's go back. Just talk about how sick, how sick this has become journalists. And a lot of people on the right. And also these people are that remember I told you about the

truth tellers. Oh, the truth. They're the truth tellers. They're the, they're going to tell you that Joe Biden's an idiot. Cause he talked about politics and abortion. They're going to mock and laugh and ridicule him. They're the truth tellers. These are the people that have their podcasts and their, their newsletters. They're not going to be like the mainstream media. They're the truth tellers. These were the same truth tellers that were calling up, whispering, going, you know, there's more to it. This Paul Pelosi thing. They were lovers. They were gay lovers for years. Paul Pelosi was a gay lover with this guy. They were were those were what the truth tellers were saying. And by the way, I remember I remember getting the calls all weekend. The truth tellers.

That's why a certain person on social media was a truth. I'm saying there's just this sickness that continues to spread. And the so-called truth tellers, this cycle should actually tell the truth instead of saying, oh, but let me tell you the truth about Joe Biden. You mentioned this cycle and that's the difference. Last cycle, you could argue, what are we dealing with? And people maybe could be given a pass. Some of the people in the audience laughing because they don't think he's serious and he won't do that. We have learned he will and he has. And America has been through a hell of a lot since Donald Trump was elected president and then lost the presidency and tried to steal it and started an insurrection, many would argue,

that we saw violence in our Capitol and people defecating in our Capitol and people going to jail for years. And yet you still support him. It's as if there are no rules for this man. No rules. Except in the court of law. Except in the court of law. And again, these these people, you know, laughing at Paul Pelosi getting battered and abused, laughing and cheering when he talks about killing the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, being with him every step of the way with violence on January the 6th. Joe Biden's right. Make no mistake. This this has been this has been a real problem. So I mentioned the court of law. We're going to be back in 60 seconds and we're going to talk about the rules that Trump will be facing today in a Manhattan court, along with all the other legal issues

facing him. We'll be back in 60 seconds. Welcome back to Morning Joe. As I mentioned that Donald Trump doesn't seem to face rules out in the real world, but in court, it's a whole different story. And this morning, the former president will be seated in a Manhattan courtroom for the start of a civil fraud trial against him. The former president arrived at his one time home of Trump Tower last night, a building that could soon be taken away from him pending the decision of Judge Arthur N. Gorin. A non-jury trial last week found the judge in that non-jury trial found Trump and his

two oldest sons and his company liable of fraud in a case brought by New York Attorney General Letitia James. Today, the punishment phase of the trial will begin, where the former president could be fined $250 million and forced to give up all of his New York state properties. Although he is on the witness list for both the defense and the prosecution, it is unclear if Trump will testify at the trial. This is massive. Let's bring in former FBI general counsel, now an NBC News legal analyst, Andrew Weissman, the reporter on the investigations desk at The New York Times.

Russ Buechner joins us once again. Thank you so much, both of you. Let's start with you, Russ, on the very latest on this case. Once again, this is not if he's liable for fraud. This is how much he pays for it, correct? That's exactly right. There's a few moving parts in this. There's going to be some kind of financial analysis that hasn't been explained yet, I don't think, about how you calculate the financial benefit that he obtained in doing this, whether that's going to be the hundreds of millions of dollars in loans he obtained or just the difference between the beneficial interest

rate he received on those and a lower rate. I don't think that's yet quite clear. The attorney general has estimated that to be $250 million. I think that suggests that it could go even higher than that. And then they'll get to what the receiver will do in trying, I think, to maintain enough assets and the performance of those assets to make sure that he'll have access to pay whatever judgment is finally determined. Well, and Andrew also, of course, the possibility of him having to forfeit some of his properties in New York City, as well as his business license for the state. What's the likelihood of that happening? I think it's very likely, as Mika said, in many ways, this trial's over. The judge has already ruled on the first of the claims against Donald Trump and his sons and his businesses. And so, as Russ said, it's really just a question of what is the financial penalty in terms of the amount of money that will be disgorged from Donald Trump and his companies.

But having a receiver and his losing his licenses in New York is something the judges already concluded with respect to the first count. There are six other counts there that are being tried this week that involve needing to show Donald Trump's intent and also whether he damaged any insurance companies or any banks. And that's the reason that I think Letitia James has him on a witness list to call him because I think she's banking on the fact, no pun intended, that he will be a terrible witness. He obviously has shown that in the E. Jean Carroll case, and that obviously will be where there's fireworks. But the big picture is he's already lost with huge financial consequences that this judge has imposed. So, Russ, let's talk about that possibility. We know Donald Trump is here in New York City, arrived last night.

He could certainly attend the proceedings this week. They sit in the courtroom. He's also been called as a potential witness for both sides of this case. His sons have as well. So walk us through what you expect him to do. And if he were to take the stand, what would he say? And would any lawyer suggest that's a good idea? I think it's always hazardous to try to guess what Donald Trump's going to do or what the boundaries will be on his behavior. I would suspect that he will show up for one or two days of this thing and he'll make a big spectacle of arriving, make a big spectacle of departing, say something outrageous on the steps outside the courthouse. There won't be cameras inside the courtroom, so we won't see him there. He doesn't have to risk the kind of embarrassment of sitting at a table in a courtroom for long hours while attorneys lay him out in filth, essentially.

And then whether somebody's going, obviously, as you said, nobody would want him to testify. That could not be productive for his case. But there are two ways I think this could go, and I'm sure Andrew could say more about this. If the prosecutors call him, if the Attorney General's office call him,

he would most likely wisely take the fifth at virtually everything they asked. But that's very hard for Donald Trump to do. He did that somewhat during his deposition. He also said some outrageous things. Or if we get to the end of this trial, which is expected to last several weeks, and it looks like they're going to get their clock cleaned on this and there's nothing much to lose. Maybe they put him up there and let him take a shot at saying something that might turn the judge. That, again, seems ill-advised and I think highly unlikely. Yeah, whatever.

So, Andrew, a couple of questions. Could you imagine being in such a bad position? That you have to put him up there. The only thing we have left is letting Donald Trump testify in the court of law. And that's our last chance. He did so well during his defamation trial where he told E. Jean Carroll's attorney that E. Jean Carroll wasn't his type and that the attorney that he was speaking to wasn't his type either and snarled at her. I thought that was also where he actually said that throughout history, that men like him were able to do whatever he wanted. It's just the truth. You know,

that's what he's. OK, so that's a stellar witness. If you need to know anything about Donald Trump, it's important to watch that deposition. So, Andrew, a couple of things. Number one, you pointed out that it's already been concluded that a receiver has to be put in place. I want to understand what that means for Donald Trump's businesses right now. How does that actually work? How does that impact his actual business with other people? You know, do people still want to do business with him if his company is in this situation? Things like that. And then also, if you could touch on the separate, the federal case, election interference, Jack

Smith asking for a gag order, what does that mean? Will it happen? Sure. Just one thing to note, if Donald Trump takes the stand and actually testifies, whether it's for Letitia James or the defense. Let's just take one example. He claimed that his own personal residence in Trump Tower was 30,000 square feet. Even the defense lawyers before this judge conceded that was wrong. And the judge is like, how do you not know that it's 10,000 feet? And then use that to, as the court found, defraud insurance companies and banks by saying

he has more assets than he has. And that's one of the reasons for facts like that, which are just so plainly fictitious, that the judge appointed a receiver. What that means is, is essentially the attorney general for New York is in charge of protecting New Yorkers from what's called persistent fraudsters. And that's what the court found that Donald Trump and his companies and his sons are. And so the receiver gets to essentially make sure that he is not doing business in New York. Mika, you raise a really good question about whether that's already a huge financial penalty and sanction, whether that also leads to banks

and insurance companies basically pulling the plug or not financing anymore is going to be a big open question. But there already are really significant consequences because this is where Donald Trump's main businesses are. So huge factor for him in terms of his companies, in terms of all sorts of business interests that he has here that he no longer will be in control of. And then with respect to the gag order, that is now fully briefed before the D.C. federal judge. And as you noted at the outset, Donald Trump does not seem to be deterred in any way, shape or form from the fact that he is making these outrageous comments, including about, as you noted, Paul Pelosi, which is beyond it's beyond shocking. And there's no question that for a federal judge,

that is going to be a big deal because it shows such complete callousness and just complete disregard for the fact that he is out on bail, not in one case, but four criminal cases. So, there is a hearing that is scheduled in two weeks before the judge, where the parties will address that issue and argue, and then she will make a ruling. Wow. OK. NBC News legal analyst Andrew Weissman and New York Times reporter Russ Buechner, thank you both very much for your insights this morning. And coming up, the government shutdown was averted with little time to spare. But hardline Republicans are not satisfied with the outcome.

In fact, they held a press conference and were enraged. Their TikTok hits there actually went down considerably because government did its business. So and then they weren't able to raise as much money. So now they're going to try to overthrow Kevin McCarthy. And of course, a tick tock nation awaits the shocking, shocking outcome. Oh, my God. The planned spontaneity killing me. General Mark Milley delivered what many saw as a dig at Donald Trump, calling him a wannabe dictator. We'll play for you that moment ahead. Morning Joe will be right back. We are unique among the world's armies. We are unique among the world's military. We don't take an oath to a country. We don't take an oath to a tribe.

We don't take an oath to a religion. We don't take an oath to a king or a queen or a tyrant or a dictator. We don't take an oath to a wannabe dictator. We don't take an oath to an individual. We take an oath to the Constitution and we take an oath to the idea that it's America and we're willing to die to protect it. That was part of General Mark Milley's retirement speech on Friday in which he appeared to take a dig at Donald Trump, saying the job of the U.S. military is to protect the Constitution. Milley was likely responding to Trump's social media post a week earlier in which he suggested that Milley be put to death for a routine phone call that he made to leaders in China. Lester Holt asked General Milley about that call in an exclusive for Nightly News. Take a look. A few days before the election, you were making it known that the army, the military would play no role in determining the outcome of the election. Why did you feel the need to say that?

Was that a specific concern that you had? There was a lot of discussion in the open media about the U.S. military, what role we would play and so on. So I wanted to make sure it was clear to the American people, to our adversaries, to our friends and allies overseas, but also to our own force, to us wearing the uniform, that we have zero, and I mean zero, role in U.S. electoral politics. You assured the Chinese at one point, your Chinese counterpart, that essentially the U.S. was okay, the U.S. was stable. Is that a fair characterization? Yeah, that's right. And Secretary Esser asked me to make a call. And we did that. They were nervous

about potential political instability in this country. Secretary Esper asked me to make sure that they didn't make any military moves and let them know that we're a stable country and we're going to be just fine. Which is, of course, what you want our leaders to do. You can watch that exclusive interview tonight on NBC Nightly News. That's exactly what generals do and admirals do and what they've done throughout history to adversaries during difficult times. And as far as the first part of it saying we're not going to play a role in this election. Yeah. He talked about telling the American people our friends are out of jail. But most importantly, and he'd done this after June the 1st. Most importantly, he was sending a message to men and women up and down the ranks, men and women in uniform. This is not our job. We're not going to be pulled in to a coup. Right. We protect and defend the Constitution of the United States of America. That's why we put on the uniform. It was extraordinarily important. Both things that he did and anybody that doesn't think it was actually they supported the riots.

Right. I mean, if they were if they were mad at him for sending that message to the military before January the 6th, they wanted the military to step in and be a part of the coup. And, Kay, that's why I see it as even more than a dig, a warning to call him a wannabe dictator. Yeah, I mean, the whole thing has got so messed up in Donald Trump's politics and revenge at this point of lashing out at Milley and now over the weekend at Esper as well, calling Esper a woke fool because Esper was the one that said to Milley,

yes, you should go ahead and do this. We've just gone through a period here in the United States where there was not communication at the highest levels between the Pentagon and the Chinese military. And there was an awful lot of frustration here in Washington that they weren't having those lines of communication open because there was worries that there could be some kind of mistake out in the South China Sea. Something could go wrong and that could lead to a conflict. And you need those communications on a regular basis. So exactly that, that you need to be able to call up your counterpart in a stressful situation and say, OK, look, this is what you need to be concerned about. This is what you don't need to be able to call up your counterpart in a stressful situation and say, OK, look, this is what you need to be concerned about. This is what you don't need to be concerned about. And that is exactly what Milley was doing. But, you know, for the pains of doing that, NBC has reporting of this

over the weekend of Trump supporters in Iowa. And this is what's alarming is Trump says it, that he should be put to death or he should be executed. And now you've got Trump supporters in Iowa telling NBC News that they agree with that statement. It only takes one person with a vicious motive and a gun in their hand and a decision to do something crazy to put into action Trump's words. And you're starting to see it filter down from Trump down through his supporters at his rallies to people who believe what he says. Perfect transition to congressional investigations reporter for The Washington Post, Jackie Alimany. We saw this with January 6th and it filtered down the same way. And people ended up in Washington, D.C., and they stormed the Capitol and many are serving time. Yeah, Mika, that's exactly right. But nevertheless, this rhetoric has continued. That's why you've seen Jack Smith now ask again

for a gag order on Trump as really the past two weeks from threats to Mark Milley, Mike Pence, Judge Tanya Chukin, even attempting to buy a firearm in South Carolina during a campaign visit, which his campaign then issued a clarification saying that he actually did not try to purchase, that he actually didn't go through with that purchase, shows his continued defiance for, you know, obviously our political norms, the safety of other people, but also the law. We'll see, you know, whether or not Smith is actually able to get this gag order this time around. But all of these this confluence of factors does seem to bode well for him. Jackie, all the papers on Saturday morning, we're talking about the coming Republican shutdown about mid midway through the morning or maybe middle of the day.

All the breaking news banners saying that, in fact, it had been averted. What happened? How did we go from a pending government shutdown to the ice breaking and suddenly, boom, it was over? It was a really mind boggling turn of events to watch on Saturday. And it all happened because McCarthy essentially broke the unwritten rule of his speakership that we've all been following, which was do not cooperate with Democrats, which he ultimately did. He decided after many attempts to give in to hardline right Republicans' request to balance the budget and make

a lot of domestic cuts along with foreign cuts, cuts to Ukraine aid. He wasn't able to get enough votes for those ultimately. He finally, just hours before the deadline, decided to put forward a clean continuing resolution that is really a 45-day agreement to maintain 2023 spending levels, but it did lack the funding for Ukraine to continue to support our allies and the vast resources that they need to continue to fight this war with our support. McCarthy, though, in doing so and making this agreement, which essentially all other government, including Republicans, agreed to, especially Republicans in the Senate, has now put his speakership on the line. So, you know, this was the red line

for Matt Gaetz, although it did seem like there was this core group of hardline Republicans who all along have been ready to just directly move to ousting Speaker McCarthy. So we're expecting a motion to vacate brought to the House floor by Matt Gaetz as soon as this morning. That then triggers this 48 hour period where there's going to be a snap vote. McCarthy is then potentially going to have to rely on Democrats yet again. It only requires five Republicans to actually remove him. That would mean either getting Democrats to just vote present or getting Democrats to support him. So it's going to be a long 45 days for him. Yeah, very long 45 days. And this is a moment, Jackie, where it's clearly this is not

Washington dysfunction. This is Republican dysfunction. This is GOP on GOP. But you mentioned Ukraine. Let's go a little further on that. We know that broadly in the building behind you, support for Ukraine is still pretty popular among Democrats and Republicans. It's a minority view of the GOP, but a loud minority saying we want to cut off aid to Kiev. President Biden, in his remarks yesterday, hinted that the White House still believes that McCarthy is going to come through for them with some sort of Ukraine funding, although McCarthy himself over the weekend was sort of trying to tie it to to border security. So walk us through how this happens in the next 45 days or so. Will there be a separate measure to send money to Ukraine, a separate spending bill?

Or are we going to be part of the next CR in the 45-day mark? That is the key question, Jonathan. As you said, McCarthy on Face the Nation yesterday tried to tie something that Republicans are set on with what Democrats have insisted on, which is border security with Ukraine funding. It seems like we're going on the path where there's going to be some sort of standalone measure that ties these two together that will be voted on. It's going to be a very fine line, though. And as we saw, Ukraine funding already failed miserably in the House when there was a vote taken. I think it was either last week or the week before last week. And not just those hardliners, but people in vulnerable districts who are hearing this

bargaining call amongst their constituents, you know, for this this message that has that has sunk in, which is why are we spending more money in Ukraine than we are on constituents in the U.S.? Of course, that's not entirely factually accurate, but it is something that we have seen sort of trickle up from grassroots conservative media to now being these the central rallying cry for a lot of, you know, grassroots conservatives in the House. But again, this is not something that McCarthy is going to be able to get through lightly, although he did make a promise to the White House. And as you saw the

Senate on Saturday, Senator Michael Bennett insisted on sort of a public pledge before the Senate took a vote that they would get something done. Yeah, you know, Katty Kay, we talk about how these extremists are standing in the way of getting work done in Washington. And we talk about regular order and everything else. I hope the White House doesn't dismiss out of hand this sort of tradeoff, which is Ukraine funding and border security funding going way up. And the reason I say that is that not only helps Republicans getting Republicans on board, that's going to help a lot of Democrats as well in districts. It'll help Republicans and Democrats in swing districts because I think a lot of

Americans, Republicans, Democrats, independents will say, wait a second, we're spending all this money on Ukraine. And yet you look at what's happening at the southern border. Both are important. We should do both. Let's wrap it all up in a bill. And that way, I mean, if you're looking at it politically, like, you know, like Joe Biden, you also put yourself in a position where if GOP extremists vote against that bill, they're voting against, say, the biggest funding increase in border security in American history. Let them take that home and try to justify that. Yeah, it's so funny. I was driving, listening to McCarthy over the weekend with my husband in the car, and he was asking exactly that same question. He's saying, but, you know, why are they tiring

the border to Ukraine? He's very keen on more Ukraine funding. And I say, well, look, actually, it makes a lot of political sense because it allows members to go back to their districts and puncture the argument that the White House is not looking after Americans at home, but is looking after Ukrainians on the other side of the Atlantic. I mean, look, I mean, the counter is that there will always be those in the Republican Party, it seems at the moment, I mean, given the changes that this Republican Party is, there will always be those who will find some reason not to want to support Ukraine, whether it's the border or something else or not spending enough on something else back in the States. But this is such a potent issue at the moment with these images of people coming across. And there are clearly so many people coming through the border. You know, you've got them

camping out in hotels in New York City that I think it is a way to help, as you say, not just to help Republicans, but to help Democrats as well. Well, yeah. And the timing and I'm sure, Jackie, you hear about it on the Hill all the time and the timing is perfect. This is where you take the opportunity that is before you and say, OK, we'll compromise with you while doing something that's, you know, good for everybody. It'd, good for everybody. It'd be good for the White House. Again, I think if the White House just sort of sticks their feet in cement and go, no, we're not going to do that. I think they're missing a great opportunity here because talk about the rising pressure, not just in conservative districts, but all districts about the illegal immigration crisis, whether you're talking about

on the border in Texas, California or New York City. Yeah, Joe, although this idea is sounding a bit too rational for this House GOP conference that has not been governed by rationality in any way. Although this weekend, what ultimately forced McCarthy's, what ultimately forced House Democrats and House Republicans' hands was putting forth a bill that some Democrats, especially ones in vulnerable districts, just couldn't vote against, despite the reluctance to cooperate with McCarthy. There is, this is a good patchwork solution here, but it does require everything sort of falling perfectly into place. And it also requires McCarthy to continue to try to put his job as speaker, continuing the government to function,

funding the government, which is really the number one job that that congressional House lawmakers have. They are appropriators by as mandated in the Constitution, first and foremost. But this he has consistently put forward the speakership and his desire to keep his job before everything else. So we'll see which ultimately, again, he decides to put first. All right. The Washington Post, Jackie Alomany, thank you so much. And I tell you, if I were Joe Biden, if I were advising Joe Biden, I would say, listen, you have an unbelievable opportunity here where you increase funding for Ukraine. You continue the funding there, but you don't do a halfway measure on the border. This is an unprecedented crisis on the border that calls

for an unprecedented action. And some people in his base is not are not going to like it. OK, well, that's what compromise is like. Lyndon Johnson is like, I want 51 votes. If we get 65, 68 votes, then I didn't push the compromise enough. I want 51 votes, which means I offended people on both sides on the extreme and we got everything in there we could possibly get in there. That's what Joe Biden needs to do here. We're always hearing, oh, well, these people keep streaming across the border because we don't have enough border agents. We don't have enough judges. We don't have enough this. We don't have enough this. We don't have enough that. Well, there aren't resources to take care of this.

And I'm sorry, but going around on the campaign trail and talking about what's happening in Central America, that's not going to help anybody. There's a crisis at the border right now that has to be taken care of first. And it'll take Democrats and Republicans to do that. It'll take Democrats and Republicans to do it. You've got a great opportunity to do it here. And these holistic problems, right? Other countries, the reason why they're coming up here. Well, that is long term.

And, you know, it's long term. That doesn't work on the campaign trail. Actually, give people the resources they need on the border. Give them the judges. Give them the give. Give them the security. Give give everybody what they need. The border security people. And this is a great opportunity to do it. Don't listen to the extremes on both sides. Do what's the right thing. And I will say, if you do what the right thing is to bring some order to the border. Yeah. He actually anytime

Donald Trump brings up the border, he goes, wait, what are you talking about? I funded the border more than you ever did. Right. I spent more money on the border than you ever did with your imaginary wall that you had up in your mind. And you said you were going to build this great, beautiful gold wall with one door in the middle of it. You never did it. You never did it. Republicans even said that was a stupid idea when they were in charge of Washington, D.C. You never did it, Donald. But I'll tell you what I did. And this is what I did. And then you just start ticking down the list of it. And I'll tell you, the American people want that. Our border agents need that. And it's a win win. And an opportunity to hold the

Republicans accountable for their part of this process or to work with them. And by the way, if the Republicans vote no on that, I mean, that's good luck defending that in the swing districts. Coming up, we have a healthy dose of sports. Taylor Swift takes on the Jets. The MLB playoffs are set. And at the Ryder Cup, Rory McIlroy gets very angry with the caddy. What's that about? ESPN's Pablo Torre tackles all of that. And he's got some insights on V-back?

I'm confused. He's sports, but... We have a new rule. He has political insight. Anytime he wants to talk, he's got to hold his hand up in a certain way. Oh, yeah, a P. A V. Okay, all right.

How does he do a P? I don't know. We'll be right back with Pop Love. A beautiful shot, 6.50 a.m. over midtown Manhattan. The sun is coming up. We've had so much rain. The sun is nice to see. And let's talk about week four of the NFL season.

Almost in the books. Let's start with last night's game just across the river in New Jersey between the New York Jets and the Kansas City Chiefs, where Patrick Mahomes and the defending champions got out to an early lead, thanks in part to this touchdown, first-quarter touchdown pass, to tight end Noah Gray. Not the tight end that Taylor Swift was there to see, but the points count all the same. But in battle, Jets quarterback Zach Wilson, well,

he dragged his team closer in the very next quarter, finding his man in the end zone there to launch the Jets into a one-score game. The game was surprisingly competitive. Fast forward now to the fourth quarter. Chiefs with three-point lead. When quarterback Patrick Mahomes, you'll see him here dancing, dancing, dancing, still dancing, now running, and Jets fans pointing to a blatant hold call that was missed there that allowed the Holmes to scamper for 20-yard yards for a first down. Then this play, looks like the Holmes gets picked off by Jets quarterback Sosh Gardner, only to have what would have been this critical turnover call back because of a holding call. This one they called on Sosh Gardner. The INT is wiped away.

Two calls go against the Jets. Joe, Chiefs win 23-20. Kind of an ugly win for them, but plenty of Taylor Swift cutaways all the same. But I guess for the Jets, Zach Wilson showed them something after a few weeks of being an abject disaster. I mean, seriously, Jets fans and Liverpool fans should talk to each other Zach Wilson showed them something after a few weeks of being an abject disaster. I mean, seriously, Jets fans and Liverpool fans should talk to each other because, my God. I'm still curious. Talk about some horrific, I mean, horrific officiating.

And by the way, in Liverpool, because I know everybody tunes in to say, well, I wonder what happened with Liverpool this weekend. This is absolutely, they fired the VAR guy. It was Liverpool one bad call after another. It's why they lost the match, and I think everybody will say that. Yeah, I know you're the same, Joe. Don't like blaming officiating. This is why we can blame the officiating. There was a series of bad calls that all went against Liverpool.

They played Tottenham over the weekend, including an utterly bogus red card. But the worst was that VAR, where the league eventually had to put out a statement acknowledging the call was wrong, apologizing to Liverpool, and firing the VAR official. Of course, none of that changed the final score. Yeah, I mean, I never blamed the refs. I mean, if you're close enough that you're losing because of calls from refs and you didn't, you know what, that's just the way it goes. In this case, it's okay. When the league blames the refs, you can blame the refs. At least that's what my good friend who I went to school with, Pablo Torre, told me about. And let's bring in Pablo Torre finds out on Metal Art Media,

ESPN's Pablo Torre, who of course went to school with everybody. Pablo went to school with Vivek. He did go to Vivek. And so, so Vivek, when he raised his hand in class, would do a V. Yeah, look, Vivek in I went to a moral philosophy lecture, attended it with Vivek. We took it was called Justice. And it's where I first got the sense that, oh, this guy is going to run for president because he would raise his hand in the shape of a V as if he was shining his own bat signal for his own terrible takes, as I like to say. And so, yeah, I've been making jokes about that guy, the shameless, the truly relentless Vivek Ramaswamy for 20 years. Guys, that is not a joke. I've been saying that privately. Now I say it to America. And good morning, America, by the way. Good morning, America.

So we have so much to talk about. We can talk about Taylor Swift. Yeah, we can talk about the fact that Zach Wilson actually did much better. Look at the quarterback rating did much better than Patrick Mahomes. I mean, really even a close call if you look at the quarterback rating. It kind of crazy, huh? Yeah, it's kind of crazy to sort of think about what counts as a moral victory if you're the New York Jets at this point? Is it the fact that Zach Wilson, the guy we've been spending weeks, Joe and Mika, all of us laughing at? Does it count when that guy looks vaguely competent? Because that's what we got last night. But I just want to point out. That's what I aim for. Yeah, I agree. Set the bar very low. But I also want to point out that just the that the Taylor Swift of this, I was just

marveling here at the table with John. I don't think there is a monoculture bigger than Taylor Swift at this point. And what's crazy about this to me is that the NFL used to be the number one overall monoculture as a sports guy. And now we see, oh, why isn't the SEC blocking this merger of monopolies? Like, it's crazy to me that here you have the NFL bending the knee to Taylor Swift, who has earned all of the large ass, all of the industrial complex around her. But it's remarkable how this continues to go, really. Well, it's remarkable, isn't it? I love how, you know, my kids and I were talking about it at the table. And it's really it's kind of like, you know, nobody can really outshine anybody. Taylor's the biggest star in the world. At the same time, if you're Kelsey, you know,

you won some Super Bowls and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of millions of people have seen you play football and know who you are. So this is what we would say in the Baptist church, a relationship that is evenly yoked. So on, on to football, on to more football. I want to talk about two quarterbacks that used to play in Ohio that I've just been fascinated by Joe Burrow, of course, and our friend down in Tampa Bay. Let's start in Tampa Bay because I got to tell you, this Baker thing, he's really good on commercials. I'm rooting for him.

You're in. I mean, it's crazy to me. It's even crazier, I think, of all things we've talked about, that Joe Burrow would be looking like he is the version of Baker we made fun of. He is not one. He looks sad. He looks despondent. Joe Burrow's nickname, for those who are uninitiated, was Joe Cool, right? And instead, he gets blown out by the Titans in this way.

And it's jarring to me. It really is. Joe Burrow is a Super Bowl contender. He's one of the best the Titans in this way. And it's jarring to me. It really is. Joe Burrow is a Super Bowl contender. He's one of the best quarterbacks in the NFL, allegedly. And now you're wondering, is it the leg? Is it the knee? What is wrong with Joe? And then on the flip side, you mentioned Baker Mayfield.

And yeah, that dude looks like he is a leader of men. That dude feels, to borrow your religious metaphor, it looks like he's leading a call and response with crowds on Sundays. That's the guy with the charisma. That's the guy leading the revival of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers. And I did not see that coming. I did not prophecy that to torture the metaphor. And so now let's move to a game that really shows how crazy the NFL is week to week to week to week.

You have the Bills who struggle to get by the Jets. I mean, and they haven't looked that great this year. And I'm thinking, man, they had a great year in 21, but they just aren't going to rise up again. And these Dolphins, my God, they're the 72 Dolphins. They're going to go undefeated. And suddenly, boom, the Bills look like the giant killers. This was crazy. It was something that I think Vegas saw more clearly than us human beings, because we saw the Dolphins, as you said, not just remind people of the 72 Dolphins, but literally dropped 70 points on the Broncos. A 50

point historic win was the week before this past Sunday. And then here, you see them go to Buffalo, and Buffalo reminds people, we are also good at this, and also what you are doing is unsustainable. And so here's Josh Allen, one of the true young stars in the league, go from a guy that, again, two weeks ago, laughing at, looked like the Cinderella situation of, hey, now he's back to the pumpkin, the carriage ride is over, and instead they're blowing out the Dolphins in the AFC East, Joe. I mean, every week there's a new storyline in development. Right.

Used to be the Patriots for 30 years. Then it was the Dolphins. Now it's the Bills again. And I I just have to say to Buffalo, I'm sorry for underestimating you and your wings. Truly. I did. I mean, I think a lot of us did. And, you know, Lemire, I thought last week the Dolphins had cracked the code. They have such great players. The two-step drop, the quick release by Tua.

It looked unbeatable. The Bills crushed them. They got penetration over and over again crashing through the offensive line and i'll tell you what if i'm a dolphins fan i'm freaking out every time i see two i get plastered like he was getting hit in ways they just can't afford him to get hit weekend a week out he won't make it to the end of the season yeah and that and that's the storyline that hovers over the Dolphins all year. As good as Tua has been, and yes, they got beat up yesterday by a Bills team that had something to prove at home.

Tua suffered those serious concussions a year ago, and I think there is that fear that he takes one bad hit, suffers another one this year. That could end not just maybe his season, but his career. So that is a real concern. Let's stay in the AFC East, though, if we must. Are we doing this? We have to do this. My New England Patriots went into Dallas yesterday and were humiliated. I've

been worried about you. Well, there are many people in my life who are. I did win a fantasy baseball title this weekend. So I do have that in my column, but that's about it because the Patriots got crushed. Matt Jones was terrible. And I think, and I've been saying this for a few weeks now, that if this season were to go off the rails, and it looks like it's about to, this would be the first time that Bill Belichick is really on the hot seat. And frankly, I'd say he deserves it. Yeah. See, this is the heresy that I've been waiting for on Morning Joe, is John Lemire pointing out that the greatest coach of all time.

Which he still is. Which he still is, just, you know, isn't right now. Yeah. You know, and that's the thing. Mac Jones, his chosen successor to Tom Brady, he benched him in this game and postgame. Belichick was saying it wasn't because of how he played. Really? Then why else was he sitting as Bailey Zappi? Your other boy, Bailey Zappi, was thrown in there. So the Mac Jones experiment is over. Why would you bench him? Well, it's because, of course, he was unbelievably terrible.

But what Belichick, Joe, is trying to do, he's trying to protect the meager remains of an ego, both Mac Jones's and his own. Because the Tom Brady thing, look, I don't want to make it all about Tom Brady. But, John, I have to imagine that for you, there is in the back of your mind this image of, I don't know, Tom Brady texting Bill Belichick at like 2 a.m. last night. Hey, how's it going? Truly like we were we were wondering, is it the coach? Is it the quarterback? We saw Tom Brady win a Super Bowl in Tampa. We've seen Bill Belichick have to lie about Mac Jones to make everybody feel better. Yeah, I've got to tell you, at Alabama, I've watched a lot of great quarterbacks go through Alabama. And I really, I really, maybe it's not going to be in New England, but Mac Jones, man, he was cool in the pocket. He was in college.

Yes. Yeah, I'd say Saban would say this is a guy that was built for the NFL. It's not working right now. Last year it was his offensive coordinator. No great excuses this year. That's right. But, yeah, they're not linking up right now. And Mac Jones could be a good, maybe not a great, but a good NFL quarterback.

First of all, let's talk Golf Writer Cup. The United States just absolutely humiliated themselves in the world stage. Now let's talk baseball. The city of Chicago is going to be weeping, not because of this putt, but the Cubs just totally blew it. They can't, they can't, there's,

and worse for them, there is no Bartman to blame this time. This was just the Cubs, one of the worst collapses in the last week. So you had two, we really had two storylines, didn't we, Pablo? We had the Marlins, which I'm excited the Marlins made it in. You have the Marlins, and they were fighting it out with the Cubs. But Seattle, who had a great second half of the season, got boxed out by the Astros. Yeah, I'll start with Seattle because Seattle has this kid, Julio Rodriguez, and this kid is the next great thing.

And it's a shame when baseball, and this is the Mike Trout problem in Anaheim, the Shohei Otani problem, well, sorry, excuse me, in Los Angeles, Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim. When you don't get your stars into the postseason, you don't maximize the value of the talent that baseball has. And Julio Rodriguez and the Mariners, they were in the postseason last year. They snapped it, an historic streak of utility, and now they're back to it. That is a bummer.

And then just the Cubs real quick, you mentioned. Look, they had to watch not just the Marlins but the Braves. Joe, the Atlanta Braves and Ronald Acuna Jr., 40-70, 40 home runs, 70 steals. Come on, man. No one's ever done it. They stopped the game to celebrate against the Cubs. That's not legal. That's not legal.

Put him in the Hall of Fame right now. It's crazy. Can we finish on a somber note? And Jonathan, jump in on this. Yes, yes, yes. There's just not a better guy than Tim Wakefield. What a shock for all of us who not only have loved the Red Sox, but have loved Tim so much. Yeah, Tim Wakefield, a real Boston icon.

He had become in recent years. He spent more than a decade there with the Red Sox. He was a member of both the 2004 and 2007 World Series teams. He, of course, was on the mound when their 2003 playoffs ended, which was that much sweeter for him that he played such a big role the following year in that historic comeback. But more than just what he did on the field is what he did off the field. He was such a champion for community causes, working with the Jimmy Fund there, working with a variety of organizations in New England. He had become a broadcaster for Nesson, which is the Red Sox locally affiliate, calling games not even that long ago. And this diagnosis was so tragic and

so sudden. Pablo, it is a really tough day. You know, 57 years old, a great player, but a better person. Oh, I grew up a Yankee fan and I could only respect Tim Wakefield. You'll see in those photos the way he held the ball. He was a knuckleballer, arguably had the greatest run of knuckleballing in those postseason runs you mentioned. And the way that this has sort of hit us, you know, baseball is both a historic institution with many, many names and faces that we remember over the years. But Tim Wakefield, this is one of those jarring ones that just is now gone too soon. Yes. Yeah. You know, Mika, Mike Barnicle sent me an article from The Times in 2005. And after the Red Sox pulled off the miracle to end all miracles in 2004, the first person Torrey called, it was Tim Wakefield.

Because he loved and respected him so much as a baseball player. He reached out, called, and congratulated him. How Joe Torrey felt about Tim Wakefield. Anybody who follows Major League Baseball did. Just a great guy.