Morning Joe - Morning Joe 10/24/23

Episode Date: October 24, 2023

Hamas releases two more hostages

And welcome to Morning Joe. It is six o'clock on the East Coast as you take a live look at Washington, D.C. It is Tuesday, October 24th. This morning, for the first time, we're hearing from a hostage freed by Hamas. We'll play for you comments from one of the elderly women released yesterday by the terrorist group. Meanwhile, the efforts to free more hostages appears to be the main factor in delaying Israel's ground invasion into Gaza. We'll go through that new reporting. Also ahead, the very latest from Capitol Hill on the speaker's race, which now stands at eight Republican candidates, all of whom in the past supported overturning the 2020 election results. Terrific. Along with Joe, Willie and me, we have the host of Way Too Early, White House Bureau Chief at Politico, Jonathan Lemire,

President Emeritus of the Council on Foreign Relations, Richard Haass, and U.S. special correspondent for BBC News, Katty Kaye. And before Willie launches into our top story, can't they come up with someone who actually believes Joe Biden won the election to be Speaker of the House? Literally eight election deniers. That's the choice. I think it's six. I think it's six of Alex. So that's a healthy margin in 2023. Six of eight. Okay, healthy margin. We thank God for tender mercies. But speaking of thankfulness, two more hostages released yesterday. Of course, so many still held. Axios reporting this morning that Israel is willing to hold back on possible invasions while these negotiations still move forward.

You know, we'll take whatever good news we can get out of this grim, grim situation and story. But it's just it's extraordinary that this terrorist group is holding people in their 80s, releasing these women and leaving their two husbands in their 80s behind. It's just so brutal. Yeah, that's reportedly been the counsel from the United States government to Israel, too, is just wait a little bit. Let's see if we can get these hostages out before you go in. That Hamas did release two more civilians who'd been held for the last two weeks more now in Gaza. Two elderly women freed yesterday. They were handed over to Israeli defense forces, taken to the hospital and then reunited with their families.

The women's husbands, as Joe said, who are both in their 80s, are still being held captive. They were kidnapped from their homes when Hamas first attacked on October 7th. In a press conference just moments ago, one of the women, with the help of her daughter, shared details of her capture. She's saying that many, many people, a swarm of people came through the fence. The fence cost two and a half billion shekels and it didn't help even a little bit. My mom is saying that she was taken on the back of a motorbike with her body, with her legs on one side and her head on another side,

that she was taken through the plowed fields with a man on one side and a man behind her, and that while she was being taken, she was hit by sticks by Shabab people. Until they reached the tunnels. There they walked for a few kilometers on the wet ground. There are a huge, huge network of tunnels underneath. It looks like a spider web.

So this is the second hostage release since the war began. An American mother and daughter were freed on Friday. Still, Israeli officials believe more than 200 people remain captive inside Gaza. Hamas, Qatar, Egypt and Israel have been negotiating a proposal to release a larger group of hostages in exchange for a steady flow of humanitarian aid into Gaza. That's according to three officials familiar with the talks who tell The Wall Street Journal. Hamas, however, is demanding Israel allow fuel deliveries into Gaza. But Israel fears the terrorist group may divert the supply and use for their own military purposes or to launch attacks into Israel. Let's bring in NBC News chief foreign correspondent Richard Engel. He is live in Jerusalem this morning. Richard, what more do we know about the release of these two women, 179, 185, and this broader strategy by Hamas?

So you just played some of that extraordinary press conference that we just heard. An 85-year-old woman, tough woman, who just was released last night and is already speaking to reporters, describing her experiences, speaking through with the help of a family member. And she described how she was taken on the back of that motorcycle after Hamas fighters broke into her kibbutz, started looting. She was thrown on the back of this bike and then taken into these tunnels. She said she was kept there with other prisoners, that Hamas seemed well-prepared. They had shampoo and other toiletries ready. They replaced and cleaned the toilets. That they chose not to discuss politics with her.

She even shook their hands when she left, not because she liked them or enjoyed this experience, of course not, but because they treated her decently. So an extraordinary count of her ordeal. But of course, Israel says there are about 220 hostages who remain in Gaza, still in captivity, including the husbands of these two women. I know that negotiations to free more hostages are ongoing. There had been some hope yesterday to free a larger group. And those discussions are continuing through the mediation of Qatar and Egypt. Overall, the military and humanitarian situation is still heading toward escalation, with Israel

continuing its airstrikes, talking about more than 400 targets struck in the last 24 hours in Gaza. And aid workers in Gaza say unless they can get that fuel in, of course, there is a concern that it will be diverted to Hamas. But aid workers from a variety of organizations are saying unless some fuel can get in, generators are going to run out of their reserve supplies at hospitals and then incubators, respirators, other kinds of equipment will not be able to function. Diplomatic efforts underway. French President Macron arrived. So we are seeing diplomatic activity, but so far no breakthroughs. So, Richard, publicly anyway,

the Biden administration is saying the IDF, Prime Minister Netanyahu, they make their own military decisions at NBC. We're reporting behind the scenes, the Biden administration is advising Israel to hold back on its ground invasion, to get these hostages out first and to get humanitarian aid in there. What's your sense of those negotiations and how long will Israel really wait? Well, I think we're seeing a bit of posturing here. The Israeli military, if it wanted to go in and was fully determined that it needed to go in, it would. It would not listen to the United States. It would not be held back.

If it had a plan and it felt that the time was right to execute it, it would go ahead. But I think the United States, its closest ally is urging caution, is doing so in a way that is publicly acknowledged. That does give the Israeli government a little bit of breathing room because the people here are angry. They are furious. They want to see a military response and they want to see it now. So now if this government can say, we are attacking, we are working, we are freeing some hostages and our allies are pushing for time, it does give them a bit more space to come up with a plan. Because going into Gaza is not going to be easy.

Just going back to the tunnel story where these hostages are being held. And I spoke to a senior Hamas official yesterday who said the hostages are being held in multiple locations. I personally have been in tunnels in Gaza, not these fighting tunnels, in smuggling tunnels. But the entire Gaza Strip is flat. It's along the sea. So the ground is quite soft and sandy. And for years, Palestinians have been digging networks of tunnels. And they are extraordinarily deep. You have one tunnel leading to tunnels and they are extraordinarily deep. You have one tunnel leading to another. There are many, many different layers to them. It is an entire labyrinth under Gaza. So in order to deal with that, it is going to take not just two weeks of planning like Israel's had right now in response to these attacks that took place on October 7th.

There's nothing quick and easy about this, that's for sure. NBC News chief foreign correspondent Richard Engel in Jerusalem this morning. Richard, thanks so much. Mika. As Richard reported, the Biden administration is advising Israel to delay a ground invasion of Gaza to allow for more time for hostage negotiations and humanitarian aid to reach there. That's according to four U.S. officials. However, officials stress the U.S. is not dictating operations for the Israeli defense forces. Yet the Pentagon has sent a three star Marine general and other officers to help advise the Israelis on the challenges in fighting an urban war. This comes as senior administration officials tell The New York Times the White House is concerned. Israel lacks achievable military objectives in Gaza and that the IDF is not yet ready to launch a ground invasion with a plan that can work.

And of course, that's the key, Richard, a plan that can work. We've been hearing so much about how difficult it would be for Israel to go into Gaza to achieve what military goals they end up having, which takes us really back to your Wall Street Journal op-ed where you talked about a two phased approach. The fact that they're not quite ready to do that, the fact that negotiations continue to move forward, the fact that Joe Biden went to the region and said, hold on, don't make the same mistakes we made after 9-11. It really, what's happening right now, thus far, it could change in an hour, fits into your two-phased approach, which is first, stabilize the situation.

Make sure that a bad situation doesn't deteriorate further. And secondly, you do that with peace in mind. Do it in such a way, David Ignatius has also said this, where peace with the Saudis is possible, peace with Palestinians who want to turn their back on terrorism also possible. So given what you wrote this weekend, where we are today, how do you think things are moving forward? It's interesting, Joe. Things have slowed down a little bit. And what we're seeing is that the hostages and by the way, the hostages were not somehow a sideshow for Hamas. Hostages were an integral part of their strategy. And what we're seeing is the slow release of them.

Hamas is trying to buy time. So that's one situation. And obviously, Israel is loathe to go in while hostages are being released in decent health. The United States is worried about American hostages. So that slows things down. There's all the negotiations, as you said, about aid. But I think what quietly is happening is U.S. defense officials are spending a lot of time with their Israeli counterparts and basically saying, do you really understand how hard this is? And there's two phases. One is actually, and you've been talking about it here, the military phase of urban close-in combat. It's just a nightmare, particularly since Hamas will know the terrain better than anybody. And then what the Americans are saying, it's a little bit of the, from our experience in places like

Afghanistan, just say we're wrong and you're right. Just say things go a little bit better than we anticipate. What then? To whom do you hand off authority? There's no, there's no other authority right now other than Hamas. There's no one else in Gaza. The idea that the people who can't run the West Bank are going to run Gaza, that's preposterous. The Egyptians and other Arabs want no part of it. The UN is feckless. So what else do you have to work with? The idea that you go in, clean them out, hand it over and walk out. It's just a pipe dream. And that's the Israeli problem. So my hunch is as emotions are intense. But what's happening, I think, is the hard thinking of foreign policy is kicking in. There'd be nothing worse. Think about it. Can you imagine anything worse for Israel than it went in big?

And then three weeks or three months later, they said this isn't working. And then that almost would add a failure on top of a failure. So I think you're having a little bit of slowing down here. Well, I mean, they're guaranteed even if if they have a, quote, successful military operation in Gaza, they're guaranteed to find themselves back in the same situation they were in 2005, where they said, we don't want to govern this place. And so then they'll have to leave. And again, this goes back to what we've been talking about. Fight the war with peace in mind. They have to fight the war against Hamas in such a way that other Arab countries will come in with the United Nations, with the United States, with other parties and have a peacekeeping force there, if that's possible. Cady, there is a there is a real give and take, though, here, let's say a push and pull. You have the Israeli people rightly enraged by the rapes, the mass atrocities, the beheadings, the execution of babies, the burning of children.

You have that where the Israelis don't want to sit back and wait. They want justice. And then you have on the other side, the world community that's sort of pulling back at Israel, telling them to wait, telling them to be patient. Things obviously are going to get even more frayed right now, aren't they? Yeah, it's interesting. You've got President Macron of France flying into Israel today, the latest in a string of world leaders to go and try to do two things, talk about hostages and try to put some restraint on the Israelis, particularly when it comes to those images in Gaza. I spoke to General Petraeus last week, and you discussed him on the show yesterday, and he lays out that challenge of, you know, clear, hold, build. Each one of those three steps in the case of Gaza is infinitely harder than it was even in Mosul for General Petraeus.

This is, you know, clearing Gaza is really difficult. Holding it again. What do you do with this? They don't want to hold on to this. And then building it. And I think it's interesting that you've got a kind of coordinated message publicly and privately coming from the Americans at the moment. That statement by Barack Obama last night was very clear to the Israelis that, you know, we stand with you. But if you have all of these images of, you know, potentially I'm hearing tens of thousands of people being killed in Gaza during a land invasion, then that could set back the Israeli cause, echoing Tom Friedman's Tom Friedman's column. And then, you know, Barack and then President Biden himself saying, listen, are you really

ready? Are these achievable aims? So the message from the Americans and from the Europeans at the moment, be careful as you plan your next steps. Quick follow up on that, Katty. It seems that obviously Europeans have always been further away from the Israeli position that Americans have taken. That said, post ISIS, ISIS attacks in Paris and what's happened in the UK, I find it fascinating that you actually have Rishi Sunak, the British prime minister,

actually pushing hard to stop pro-Humas, pro-Humas demonstrations in London that are chanting jihad and things that we've all seen. I know you've seen when you're in London before, but it seems to me that at least that government is moving a bit more aggressively toward the Israeli position. Yeah, the Brits have moved naval assets into the region as well. So they're very much in lockstep. The government is very much in lockstep, but there's some disconnect

between the governments and the people. You've had very big pro-Palestinian demonstrations in France. You've had big pro-Palestinian demonstrations in London. And if you look at the domino effect of this, of any kind of big-scale invasion of Gaza and even the atrocities, you know, the killings that we're seeing and the suffering that we're seeing in Gaza at the moment, I've just come back from London— it gets much more play in the European press than it does in the American press, even. The Americans are trying to cover it, too.

But the dominoes will be the Arab world gets impatient with the Israelis, loses faith with the Israelis, the Europeans lose faith with the Israelis, and then the fear would be that the Americans do, too. If this ground invasion were to go on for a long time and we were to see night after night images of Palestinians being bombed in Gaza. Yes, certainly those images could further sway public opinion. Administration officials in Washington, I've spoken the last couple of days. They note that Israel has built this 300,000 plus reservist force near the border. There said, there's only so long you can keep a group of that size there because of their economic impacts, logistical impacts. At a certain

point, the order has to be given to go. But Israel right now is listening. And U.S. officials tell me they're very careful. They're not dictating military strategy. They want to make that very clear. There's a three-star U.S. Marine general over there now, other top officials as well, advising Israel as to what the fight may hold ahead when they do go in and how difficult it will be. And there's a sense here, senior Biden aides tell me that because the president has been so forthright with his support for Israel, going to Tel Aviv, delivering speech after speech here in the United States, backing the Israeli cause. He's bought some currency there and that Israel may be more inclined to listen to him, that he's they they feel like he's bought in with them. And therefore, they're more willing to listen to his message of take it slow, be patient, do the right thing. But of course, the eventual decision to go

and how big to go, that'll be Israel and Israel's alone, Joe and Mika. And Mika, you know, there would have been a time when the United States would not have felt itself to be in a position to tell the Israelis how to fight wars in urban centers because of their experience and the problems with Gaza. But over the past 20 years, of course, in Iraq, especially Afghanistan. And when you look at what happened in our battle in Mosul to clear out ISIS out of Mosul, that is something that we understand. General Petraeus talked about it. You're talking street by street, building by building, room by room. Experience and lessons learned. Also with the French president coming in, we have the American officials there. It doesn't it's helping the slow down because that's not going to happen with them there. The invasion that it's done, that it's done

right. And as Richard has said, David Ignatius has said that with a goal, a war against Hamas is done with with two objectives, one to not destabilize the entire region and to destroy Hamas and two with an eye toward peace after it's over. So we're back in 60 seconds with the very latest on the speaker mess on Capitol Hill. Also, some more very strange comments on the campaign trail by Donald Trump. Is he OK? Not sure. Morning Joe continues in just a minute. We've wasted three weeks and, you know, this was a dumb move by those eight members of Congress. Many of them are on my committee. I like, you know, at least six of the eight. But at the end of the day, they had no plan. They had no plan. And Larry, this could stretch out another two or three weeks. This is unfortunate. And, you know, I'm ashamed that we're

in this position. Hopefully we'll find someone that can get 217 votes soon. Now, I've got to say, Willie. That's experience and insight. If James Comer is saying it's a dumb move, like he trademarked dumb move. Got patent. And he's talking about a patent, I guess, on dumb moves. You can lower scan it. It's just such a mess, isn't it? It is. I like how he also said, I like six of the eight.

He did some quick math in his head, had two names in mind that he couldn't even bring himself to give false praise, faint praise upon. Yeah. I mean, to say this is a mess is a, is an understatement. I mean, we've been over two weeks now without a speaker at a house with important business in front of us. And now, so at nine o'clock this morning, short time from now, Republicans are going to have an internal vote again to see who they want to be the next nominee. That's three weeks to the day after Kevin McCarthy was kicked out of his job. Candidate forum held last night. Nine Republicans vying for the speakership were given the opportunity to answer questions from fellow lawmakers, after which one dropped out. So now we're down to eight. Six of the remaining eight candidates voted to overturn the 2020 presidential election results.

Only Congressman Tom Emmer and Austin Scott did not, though they signed on to a Texas lawsuit to decertify. So they're not totally clean on this either. That was a brief supporting that Texas lawsuit that would have invalidated the election results in four key states. Let's bring in congressional investigations reporter for The Washington Post, Jackie Alimany. So, Jackie, where are we as we wake up now three weeks after McCarthy lost his job? Yeah, we're here again waiting for the third round of the speaker candidacy to take place. You're going to see members today, after they made their pitch last night,

these eight members up for an actual vote behind closed doors. These events, this House GOP conference is what they call it, when everyone meets in the House basement in a closed-door meeting, the entire conference, were usually rare events, but now have become common occurrences where we all wait in the hallways to see who might emerge as the speaker designee. And it's unclear who that's going to be. Right now, we have Tom Emmer, the congressman from Minnesota, who's really the fifth highest ranking member of the House conference. He is the likely front runner. He has a little bit of baggage.

He is one of the few members in the running who is not an election denier, which has dismayed former President Donald Trump, who called him out in a rally over the weekend. And then there's people like Byron Donalds, Austin Scott. Byron Donalds is a younger 44-year-old lawmaker from Florida who's also actually caught a surprising amount of traction. Some lawmakers are worried he's a bit too green. This is only his second term, but he has gained some support across the ideological spectrum. All of these members, these candidates, the eight of them have signed a pledge from Congressman Mike Flood that they're ultimately going to support whoever the winner is today. We'll see, though, if that ultimately is able to take the House to the floor vote to vote on one of these candidates.

That still feels pretty far away. So we're just taking it meeting by meeting right now. You know, let me bring in Mike Barnacle. Mike, this is such a crisis. It's a crisis not only for the Republicans in the House. It's a crisis for Americans. And it's it's a crisis that has global implications. That chairman, Mike McCall, who knows something or another about world events, saying this, quote, The world is on fire.

This is so dangerous what we are doing, what his party is doing. It empowers and emboldens our adversaries like share Chairman Xi of China, who says democracy doesn't work. And what McCaul says his fellow Republicans are doing right now by being this reckless is they're proving she right. Yeah, you know, Joe, it's interesting. Chairman McCaul, the past month or so, even longer than that, has sounded like someone who does not belong to the existing very public Republican Party that we witness each and every night and each and every day on TV with their chaos. And with all due respect to what did we call them? Dumb moves coma that we were just talking about earlier. I was speaking to a couple of people yesterday, both of whom have come back

from Europe on business trips in the past 10 days. And Richard Haass would probably have more information on this sort of thing than I do. But anecdotally, they were talking about fielding questions from respected European business people wondering about the foundations of our democracy here, given all what's going on with just the speakership in the House. I don't know what you've heard, Richard. That's what you hear all the time. It's the Trump circus. It's the speakership. These are countries that they've put their eggs in our basket. Economically, more important, their security. And they are now asking increasingly, can they count on us? The fact that they have to ask the question, Mike, is bad. How they're beginning to answer it is even worse. And they're beginning to think,

what do they do, whether it's Ukraine, what do they do about NATO, Middle East, if the United States is no longer there for them or with them? This is the first time it's happened so fundamentally, literally in this era. Right now, this White House, of course, can't move to support the way it wants Israel and Ukraine because of the lack of a speaker. There is the possibility that Donald Trump could return to office a year from now, which, of course, worries global capitals. And, Jackie, there's also a government shutdown looming. We're just a few weeks away from that as well. And that would further cripple Washington's efforts both domestically and overseas.

So you walk us through what we think is going to happen these next couple of days. The role that Donald Trump is trying to play. I know he's no fan of Congressman Emmer and was took to Truth Social to go after him. And in recent days, is there anybody you talk to that thinks that this is something that could get done today, tomorrow on a floor, a full floor vote? Or is this going to stretch on for weeks to come? Yeah, I want to address the government shutdown portion of your question first, because it's something that I think is not a priority right now, even though it is looming and could potentially be disastrous. The continuing resolution expires November 17th. And right now, I mean, lawmakers have done

nothing to move towards an actual agreement, which means that they're most likely going to have to pass another continuing resolution, which most a lot of these House GOP conference members have are in principle object to. But at the end of the day, the House has one job, their appropriators, and they right now have only passed four appropriations bills. They have eight more left and there is literally not enough time to get those done. So whoever they do support for Speaker is going to they're going to have to consider some short term bill with help from Democrats. Once again, we're likely going to see a repeat of what happened with Kevin McCarthy this last time around, which leads me to the Trump factor here.

You know, I think it really remains to be seen how much of an influence any sort of outside player can have. At the end of the day, McCarthy did have the support from Trump. Jim Jordan had a lot of support from Trump that did not make some of these members budge. As Dusty Johnson told us yesterday, you know, it takes a lot to have these guys and gals moved by these external factors, even death threats, as we saw. So Emmer does not necessarily have the support of Trump, but it remains to be seen whether Trump is really actively whipping against him. And I think there we're nearing the point where there's going to be severe political consequences for people if they continue to hold out. And we we go further with no speaker.

So, I mean, Trump's influence not necessarily making a difference, but there is a lot of consequences if they don't get this done. You mentioned the world being on fire and the threats from around the world. But there's also the U.S. economy to think about. The economic consequences are terrible. If you look at it, if you look at the instability, Mika, of what's happening when you not only have a looming government shutdown, but you have Congress shut down, you have interest rates, 10 year interest rates bumping up against a 5 percent margin, which it hasn't been, I guess, since the mid 90s. That means we're paying a hell of a lot more interest on the thirty three trillion dollar national debt that we have that cuts more and more into not only

our budget, but also the strength of the dollar, the strength of the American economy. There is there's so many things going sideways right now. The Republicans in Congress have to get their act together or else it's not just going to be Israel and Ukraine and Taiwan paying for this. It's going to be American taxpayers and people with jobs. Things will get sideways really fast. Congressional investigations reporter for The Washington Post, Jackie Alimany, as always, thank you very much. OK, now this Donald Trump gave a campaign speech in New Hampshire yesterday. And let's just say in all seriousness, by the way, this is not a joke. If Joe Biden had said the things that Trump said, most Republicans would be calling for him to be put in an old age home.

I'm for us. I'm for us. You know how you spell us, right? You spell us, U.S. I just picked that up. Has anyone ever thought of that. I just picked that up. Has anyone ever thought of that? I just picked that up a couple of days. I'm reading and it said us. And I said, you know, if you think about it, us equals U.S. We had that all set to go, but then we had a little election that went astray. So we have to be careful. You got to get out there. You got to watch those voters.

You don't have to vote. Don't worry about voting. The voting. We got plenty of votes. You got to watch election night. You know, it used to be election day, election night. Now it's election month. Now it's election period. Some of these things going for 53 days. It's terrible. Victor Orban. Did anyone ever hear of him? He's probably like one of the strongest leaders anywhere in the world. And he he's the leader of right. He's the leader of Turkey. Yeah. So, Willie, first of all, I just picked that up. Us and U.S. That's interesting. Yeah. Don't worry about voting.

Secondly, third, Orban, of course, maybe he's never even visited Turkey. I don't know. Maybe it may be the leader of Hungary has visited. But it's troubling to me. He calls Orban one of the strongest leaders and says it in a wonderful way. Orban, of course, is a person who shut down all of his opponents politically. He's tapped reporters phones. He's destroyed independent news agencies. He's he's led phony tax investigations into reporters that were critical of him, chased them from the country, brags that he's an illiberal, that they have illiberal

democracy and not Western style democracy. And again, there's a guy who keeps thinking he's running against Barack Obama, not not doing well. No, as Mika said, if that were Joe Biden, they'd be running wall to wall on certain networks with medical experts describing what was happening here and why he needed help and why he should probably step off the stage. I would add in Joe to the collection of comments that he made yesterday. He compared himself to Nelson Mandela, who, of course, spent nearly 30 years in prison for fighting apartheid in South Africa, saying if he goes to jail, he's happy to be just like Mandela. Also promised in his next term to build, like Israel, an iron dome over the United States.

Israel, of course, is the size of New Jersey. So that would be a heck of a project for the United States to undertake. But Katty K., this is the man who has been, frankly, marginalized by this war, by the gravity of what's been happening for the last couple of weeks, as he has said, Hezbollah was, quote, very smart, again, blaming Israel yesterday for what happened to them, a terrorist attack against them and periodically visiting courtrooms across the country in between. Yeah. I mean, telling your supporters that they don't need to worry about voting is certainly a novel strategy. It's not one I've ever heard on an American presidential election before. I mean, it'll be interesting to see how much Donald Trump's diehard supporters have any of their views changed by the comments he made about Hamas, which I think probably will have hurt him more than the kinds of things he said last night. But as we all know, this election is only going to be decided by about 100,000 people in five states. And if some of

them are watching that kind of thing and seeing him confuse the leader of one country with another at a time when we are in a critical situation around the world, that could give pause to some of those people who may have been wavering, you know, in the middle to think, actually, this is somebody who we can't trust with the security of global affairs. Well, again, a guy who thinks he's running against Barack Obama, who hasn't run in for president in 11 years. It's kind of frightening listening to him coming up. Our next guest examines the Hamas terror attack on Israel and other conflicts around the world through the lens of barbarism. We'll break that down. And later, U.S. Capitol Police Officer Harry Dunn joins the conversation to discuss his new book that gives an inside look on the ground at the Capitol on January 6th.

And then, the aftermath that followed. We'll be right back. Grounded a second, two years removed from losing a hundred. The Rangers have won the pennant. Wow. The Texas Rangers are going to the World Series after blowing out the Houston Astros 11-4 in Game 7 of the ALCS on the Astros' home field. Dulles Garcia homered for a fourth consecutive game. He's been incredible, hitting two last night for his sixth of these playoffs, driving in five more runs to set a record for RBIs in a postseason series. Got 15 of them just in the ALCS. Garcia earned MVP honors for the series and saw the road team win every game for just the second time ever. Astros also were on the wrong end of the other

one, dropping four home games and a loss to the Washington Nationals in the 2019 World Series. The Rangers now await the winner of the NLCS because the Diamondbacks and Phillies also tonight will play a decisive game seven after Phillies' first loss at Citizens Bank Park in seven home playoff games. Tommy Pham, Lourdes Gurriel provided the D-backs with an early lead with back-to-back home runs in the second. Starter Merrill Kelly was great. Four relievers holding the Phillies to just one run. The Phillies' biggest bats, Kyle Schwarber, Trey Turner, Bryce Harper, going 0-9 with four strikeouts.

D-backs beat the Phillies 5-1. Game 7 is tonight in Philadelphia. Joe, that stadium in Philly tonight is going to be absolutely insane. A game seven of the NLCS. But how about the Texas Rangers? Most people had written them off after they won the first two, lost the next three. They figure Astros are going home. It's going to be easy work.

But wow, the defending champs, Houston Astros, going home. I mean, the Astros have been part of history in all the wrong ways, including a crazy series this year, ALCS, where the home team lost all the games, just like the 2019 World Series when they were playing the Nationals. It was just crazy. But Mike Barnicle, you do wonder, you look at these Rangers and kind of wondered it from the beginning, whether they're a team of destiny. They struggle off and on. I remember they were going through like five, six, seven game losing streaks in August.

Looked like they weren't going to make it. They squeak in there. Then they sweep a very good Rays team in the wildcard division, in the wildcard part of it. Then the ALDS, they sweep the Orioles. I mean, the Orioles also, obviously, one of the better teams in baseball. And now this against the Astros certainly look like they could be a team of destiny. They could well be a team of destiny, Joe. And I think part of that, a lot of it goes on the shoulders of Bruce Bochy, their manager. He's been around a long time. You watch

him shuffle out to take pictures out and you think, I hope Bruce makes it to the mound and back. But, you know, yesterday was a key example of Bochy's importance to the Rangers, Jonathan, in that he goes out and he hooks Max Scherzer off that mound in the third inning. And Scherzer, you could tell, was disturbed about being taken out. But you're not going to fool with Bruce Bochy. Scherzer coming back from injury hasn't been that effective. Let's also remember the Rangers doing this without Jacob deGrom either. He's missed almost the entire season. And I think, Joe Meeker, we can safely say that outside of the Metro Houston area, most Americans happy that the Astros and their baggage are out of these playoffs.

But I will note, this Game 7 tonight in Philadelphia is extraordinary. Here's a stat. The Philadelphia Phillies, who are one of the oldest teams in the league, have never played in a Game 7 before, ever, because their history, frankly, has been so suspect. They haven't made the playoffs all that often until recent years. They've never played in the Game 7. And a friend of mine who is a Philadelphia fan notes that Philly sports teams are 0-6 in Game 7s

when you count the Sixers, you count the Flyers in the last decade or so. So the crowd's going to be excited tonight. The crowd's also going to be nervous. It should be a great game. Yeah, you know, in their first 80 or 90 years of existence, Mika, this is the part that freaks you out. Yeah. The Phillies only made it to the World Series in 1915. Yep.

Why does he know this? Beaten by the Red Sox. He's not well. And in 1950, when the Yankees took them down. So this is a team that, can you believe that? 1915 and 1950. In the entire 20th century. A little bit better in the 21st century. But, you know, Mike, I look at this Rangers pitching staff,

and I look at somebody like Nate Evaldi, and I think, only the Red Sox can get their hands on a pitcher like that. Why can't we get players like that? Why can't we ever get somebody like Nate Evaldi? He's really come through after, you know, had a couple injuries here and there, but some teams don't give up on him. For those of you who are unfamiliar with Nate Evaldi,

he would take the ball anytime you give it to him. I'm surprised that he didn't beg to be put in there again last night having pitched the night before. He's that kind of a giant on the mound. He's had a great playoff season. And he's a former member of the Boston Red Sox. But the Red Sox, of course, a little engine that could, didn't have enough money to set aside to re-sign Nate.

Yeah. Which is not true. But anyway, so he ends up where he ends up. No, and he's great. He has to remember, of course, he pitched inning after inning after inning in that extra inning thriller in the 2018 World Series for the Red Sox. A terrific pitcher. Good for him for being there. And look, the Texas Rangers also never won a World Series. They've only been in two. They lost both. So maybe we have a fresh champion this year as well.

It's going to be exciting. But I've got to say in the defense of the Red Sox front office, we did get two proof of purchase sales from Mini Kellogg's cereal for Nativaldi. That was pretty good. And of course, as always, you know, we got

all you can eat from Barnhill's Buffet in Pensacola, Florida. We get two tickets for that. Really? I can't wait to go. So nice breather. Still ahead on Morning Show. We're going to get another live report from Israel as negotiations to get Hamas to release more hostages intensifies. Plus, Wall Street Journal reporter Evan Gerskovich still remains in a Russian prison

with no release in sight. His sister will join us on his latest condition and the family's efforts to get him home. You're watching Morning Joe. We will be right back. 52 past the hour yesterday, the Israeli military held a screening for journalists showing unedited footage of the October 7th Hamas terrorist attack. According to the BBC, 43 minutes of footage was viewed by foreign journalists at an Israeli military base. The video included footage recovered from the body cameras worn by Hamas attackers, along with surveillance videos and cell phone cameras. The decision to screen the raw footage for journalists reflected a frustration among senior ranks of the Israeli military that the media coverage of Hamas's

brutal attack was being overshadowed by coverage of Israel's airstrikes against Gaza. It's also an effort to remind the world of the brutality of the attack on Israel two weeks ago. Joining us now, professor at Johns Hopkins University School of Advanced International Studies, Elliot Cohen. He's also a contributing writer at The Atlantic. He has a new book out entitled The Hollow Crown, Shakespeare on how leaders rise, rule and fall. And that's out today. But Elliot, in your latest piece for The Atlantic entitled Against Barbarism, We Are in the Fight of Our Lives, you write in part, quote, there's a place for geopolitical and strategic analysis of Israel's war with Hamas and its allies and associates, how it affects politics in the Gulf, whether it will reduce American aid to

Ukraine, how Russia may exploit the situation and so forth. But such discussion will miss an essential element of this war, a conflict that is not solely or even primarily about politics or desperately conceived purpose. It's about barbarism. Barbarians fight because they enjoy violence. They do not only kill and maim, but go out of their way to inflict pain, to torture, to rape, and above all, to humiliate. They exult in their enemy's suffering. That is why they like taking pictures of their weeping, terrified victims, why they make videos of slow beheadings, and why they dance around mutilated corpses. All of us, not just Israelis and Ukrainians, are in the fight of our lives, and it is about time we recognized that and acted with the vigor and courage the times demand. So I'd like for you to tell us more about how this could very well

spin out of control and toward the rest of the world and specifically barbarism. Well, there are a number of ways in which it can spin out of control. There's a geopolitical element, of course. You know, Iran could decide this is the moment to try to unleash Hezbollah and so on. But I think there's another way in which this is already metastasizing. You know, there's a demonstration in Sydney of quite a large mob screaming, gas the Jews. You know, your previous reporter talked about some of the demonstrations and so on that you have you've had throughout Europe, which really have kind of a murderous

feel to them. And we've seen this in the past. And I think one thing we need to remember is that from the point of view of Hamas and people like Hamas and who sympathize with it, this has been a glorious success. And the cruelty is very much part of it. And the problem with thinking about this in terms of, well, how do we get to the next ceasefire? Or even simply, how do we get the hostages releases? How do you get beyond that? How do you get beyond the point where people think, you know, barbarism works and barbarism is the way to go? And I don't really hear a whole lot of people talking about that. Elliot, good morning. It's Richard Haass. Barbarism, obviously, from your point of view,

reflects the lack of character, the depravity of the individuals involved. But also, it's in your right, it's a strategy. What do you think the purpose of it is? So other than simply people who are that way, what do you think their definition of success, what are they hoping it leads to? Well, you know, we don't have to go very far, Richard. We can look at the Hamas covenant of 1988. And it's very clear they want to not only destroy the state of Israel, they really want to exterminate it and, you know, exterminate the people there. I think, you know, we have trouble. We can understand barbarism as individual behavior. We have trouble understanding it as collective behavior that is driven by irrational hatred and and grievance.

And that's why we had so much. Look, it's why we had so much trouble understanding Hitler. It's why we had so much trouble understanding what happened in Rwanda. It's why we were so slow to act after the Srebrenica massacres. It's because nice, liberal, progressive, liberal Democrats like us, and I include myself very much in this, find it very hard to wrap our heads around this as a mass phenomenon, as opposed to that of, you know, some psychopathic individuals. But it is a larger phenomenon. And that's what I wanted to, the point I wanted to make in that piece. Professor Cohen, I think our audience would like to hear your views on the following, the coverage of what's been going on thus far, the inability among some university presidents to distinguish between what is a terrorist and who is a militant, the fact that we continue to claim that Hamas is after Israelis

when Hamas really is after Jews, to be specifically clear. And the third element of it is the coverage of the hospital bombing that almost immediately, almost immediately in this second media explosion that we live in, was blamed on the Israelis. Well, you know, there's always, it seems to me, a kind of lunge for moral equivalence. People have a brief moment of sympathy with the Israelis and say, yes, it's terrible that civilians were targeted, but Palestinian civilians are dying too. And of course, that is tragic. But you know, there's an enormous moral distinction as well as an enormous legal distinction between civilians getting killed in war, which happens all the time. But when it's unintended and when you take whatever precautions you can to avoid it and the deliberate, cruel targeting of civilians to include torture and rape.

And I think one of the points people need to really remember, and I believe those images make very clear, this wasn't just about the killing of civilians. This was about their torture. This was about their rape. This was about defiling and mutilating their corpses. That's something that's very, very different. And I think a lot of us just don't feel comfortable unless you can somehow create some sort of sense of of equivalence. And a lot of the university presidents who chose to speak out in and from some of the greatest universities of the land, including the one where I received my education, just muffed it and were unable to face the truth as it is. And maybe that's the key point. You know, the motto of Harvard is Veritas truth. The motto of Johns Hopkins is the truth will make you free. You know, your job is to tell the truth. And that's a moral truth as well as a kind of more

intellectual truth. Professor at Johns Hopkins University School of Advanced International Studies, Elliot Cohen, thank you. We'll have to have you back to talk about his new book entitled The Hollow Crown, Shakespeare on How Leaders Rise, Rule and Fall. Thank you very much for being on this morning.