Morning Joe - Morning Joe 10/4/23

Episode Date: October 4, 2023

House ousts Kevin McCarthy as speaker in historic vote

I hope one thing is clear after this week. I never give up. I believe I can continue to fight maybe in a different manner. I will not run for speaker again. I'll have the conference pick somebody else. All right. What a difference nine months makes. Kevin McCarthy's speakership is over after a small group of far right Republicans joined all Democrats in voting to remove him. We'll go through what led to his undoing and what's next for the House after a truly chaotic historic day on Capitol Hill.

Plus, the other big story we are following this morning, Donald Trump now under a gag order in his civil fraud trial for what he posted on social media. We'll go through what the consequences could be if he violates the judge's ruling. A bad day in court for the former president. Good morning and welcome to Morning Joe. It is Wednesday, October 4th. Along with Joe, Willie and me, we have the host of Way Too Early, White House Peer Chief of Politico, Jonathan Lemire. Senior writer for The Dispatch, David Drucker, and co-hosts of Showtime's The Circus, former White House director of communications to President Obama, Jennifer Palmieri, and NBC News national affairs

analyst, John Heilman. And Willie, obviously, just the absolute chaos in the House, which I think the Wall Street Journal editorial page put it perfectly, the lead editorial, Republicans cut off their own heads. We'll get to that in a little bit. But as big of a story as that is, I've got to say what's unfolding in court in New York state. Also, massive people that have known Donald Trump for a very long time say this is getting to him in a way that none of the criminal trials have gotten to him. And I think it's starting to show. Yeah, this is his entire identity, isn't it?

The big shot businessman. This is how he was elected president. This is how he became famous. All of those things likely being stripped from him as we watch this trial unfold. And now the judge reminding him yesterday, you cannot go after in a public way members of the court, witnesses, other people. That's not how this works. It doesn't matter who you are or who you think you are. You cannot attack people associated with this trial in a public way. So we're going to dig deep into that trial in just a moment. But we do want to begin this morning with that history that was made in the House of Representatives.

On this vote, the yeas are 216. The nays are 210. The resolution is adopted. Without objection, the motion to reconsider is laid on the table. The office of Speaker of the House of the United States House of Representatives is hereby declared vacant. And just like that, last night, Congressman Kevin McCarthy ousted as House speaker. That's the first time in history a speaker has been removed through a no confidence vote. First time ever. The final tally, 216 to 210, with eight Republicans, you see them there, breaking from their party to oust McCarthy after a far-right Republican congressman introduced the motion to remove McCarthy on Monday. After his ouster, the now former Speaker spoke to reporters

about his removal. I don't regret standing up for choosing government over grievance. It is my responsibility. It is my job. I do not regret negotiating. Our government is designed to find compromise. I may have lost a vote today, but as I walk out of this chamber, I feel fortunate to have served the American people. I leave the Speakership with a sense of pride, accomplishment, and yes, optimism. I fought for what I believe in, and I believe in this country of America. My goals have not changed. I believe

I can continue to fight, maybe in a different manner. I will not run for speaker again. I'll have the conference pick somebody else. Pride, accomplishment and optimism, says Kevin McCarthy. So now Congressman Patrick McHenry of North Carolina becomes the speaker pro temp. McHenry was chosen from a list of potential successors that had been submitted by McCarthy back in January to the House clerk. He is an ally of McCarthy's. Since 2003, House rules have required the speaker to submit a list of names of members to act in the case of his or her vacancy. Republicans now will hold a speaker candidate forum next Tuesday for the candidate forward for the full House election next Wednesday. So a week from today is when

they will vote for the next House speaker. So, Joe, 270 days, nine months, Kevin McCarthy lasted. And this all goes back to something we talked about the day it happened. On that 15th vote, in order to become House speaker, he had to agree to the rule that one member of the House of Representatives could raise a motion to vacate the chair. A lot of people said, oh, that's never going to happen. We said, don't be so sure. And here we are today. The other thing to note, no matter how loyal you are to Donald Trump, no matter how you

rush down to Mar-a-Lago to rehab his reputation after January 6th, he ain't coming to save you in the end. Loyalty is a one-way street. Yeah, always been a one way street. And and when when it really was a fait accompli, as soon as he agreed to one person being able, Kevin McCarthy, one person being able to knock him out. That's just bluntly that's how we ran Newt Gingrich out of town at the end of 1998. But but it is amazing. It is amazing that the Republicans hold one branch of government, one branch of government, the House, half of a branch of government. And it's just absolute chaos. Madness. And I must say, perhaps you file this one under letting calmer heads prevail.

But to go on a one week reset. I'm sorry, you don't have your you know what together any better than that. To go on a one week recess so they can get their thoughts together with everything that's going on in this country? I mean, Jonathan O'Meara, when they come back, you're still going to have 96 percent of the caucus enraged at the people who did this for really just weird, bizarre reasons. They don't line up. They can say what they want to say. They can talk about the budget. They're lying because they've never cared about the budget or spending before. They can talk about broken promises. I mean, it's a Wall Street Journal said, you know, they're attacking McCarthy for not passing enough appropriation bills when they were the ones that

stopped them from passing the appropriation bills. Here's the takeaway line, though. The ouster captures the degraded state of the Republican Party in this era of rage. That from the very conservative Wall Street Journal editorial page who is throwing their hands up this morning, like most Republicans saying, what in the hell is going on in Washington, D.C., with Republicans? Yeah, and it's so important that we say this is not the House of Representatives in chaos. This is the Republicans in the House in chaos. And Democrats yesterday made the decision they weren't going to save McCarthy. They didn't appreciate how he badmouthed them in a series of TV interviews over the weekend after they came to his aid with

the continuing resolution. He couldn't have passed it without them. We showed that photograph he took with Donald Trump in January of 2021, just a couple of weeks after January 6th, which started Trump's rehabilitation within the GOP. That was the one moment perhaps the party could have cut ties with him. We see now, of course, they did not. They're also angry about the impeachment inquiry that McCarthy commissioned into President Biden. And McCarthy has been hanging by a thread for a while. Matt Gaetz and others wielded this threat, the easy move to call for a motion to vacate, vacate to get what they wanted from McCarthy. And it was never enough. Someone close to McCarthy yesterday told me it was like negotiating with terrorists and there was never able to satisfy them. And there's pure fury within the GOP against Gates and others who've moved to vacate McCarthy, to oust McCarthy. McCarthy read the room last night, realized that he had no path

to holding his speakership. There had been some thought he might fight to keep it even after the motion to vacate. He walked away. And now, Joe, the Republicans disappear. The House goes out of session for a week. We're only 40 odd days until the government runs out of funding again. So that just ups here the the drama and also just the disarray and chaos brought forth by Republicans. Well, John Heilman, somebody, a source saying to Jonathan O'Meara, what many people have said is that they are like terrorists, but political terrorists, political terrorists without any demands. I remember a question being asked, one of them, you know, when they said, what else do you want from Kevin McCarthy? Back when the first vote was going back in January, they said, well, we really got nothing else to ask them. It's they're they're just again, Wall Street Journal says members in safe seats. And that's the thing. All of these members are in safe seats. Members in safe seats can fuel their own fundraising and their careers to claiming to, quote, fight against all and sundry without doing any of the hard work

to accomplish what they claim to be fighting for. We've been talking about how the Republican Party's turned under Donald Trump into the party of gestures. This is the ultimate gesture, shutting down the United States House of Representatives and sending out fundraising letters while you're doing it, when you have no path forward, when 96 percent of the Republican conference is against you. And yet just four percent are able to shut down the House and then fundraise off of it. Right. And that's, you know, that's the sign of that. That's what's really, really puts a fine point on what's going on here, Joe. I mean, I have heard over the last 24 hours or however many hours it's been since McCarthy's fall, you know, the repeated invocation of the

notion that this is a Republican civil war. It's not a Republican civil war. That's not, this is not the moderate wing against the conservative wing or the establishment wing against the insurgent wing. This is a party that is not, it's not because the cleavages are so deep. There has been this kind of ideological inbreeding. This is an argument over tactics and what has happened over the course and objectives. And what's happened over the course of the takeover of the party by Donald Trump and the MAGA wing that has become the whole of the party is that all of these people who are so mad at Matt Gaetz and the other seven Republicans who voted to send the House into this chaos and take down Kevin McCarthy, they have catered to that wing over and over and over again. They have given it everything it wants. And, you know, when you keep feeding the monster, the monster just gets stronger and hungrier and more ravenous and more willing to do what it's going to do for whatever reason.

Kevin McCarthy didn't just lose because he made a deal with the devil. He showed Matt Gates back in February, January, he said, basically, I will do anything to be speaker of the House. And the one thing, Joe, you know, is that when it comes to political power and leadership, is that as soon as you show the other side that you're willing to do anything, there's no line you won't cross. There's no principle you won't compromise, that you'll do anything to get the thing you want. You know you will not have that thing for very long. And that is the perfect symbol of what's happened with this entire ideological takeover. The party has capitulated to the Matt Gaetz's of the world and the progeny of Donald Trump. And now they are in their thrall.

Those eight people who represent the most distilled Trump version have all the power, and it's bonkers. Yeah, it is bonkers. And Willie, John is so right. He wanted it too much. You can't ever want a position that much. You can't give away everything. You've set yourself up for failure. And it is one of the things I learned in Congress early on when some senior member wanted to appoint me to run a task force.

And I had an aide look it over and said, well, you can't do this unless you're set up to succeed. They have you set up to fail. And it was a really great lesson. You don't run and jump at the first offer. You wait when that offer comes in. You get an ability to actually succeed at the tasks that you want to succeed at. Kevin McCarthy, we all knew it and we all said it in real time, was so desperate to be speaker of the House that he set himself up for failure. And boy, it melted down yesterday. Yeah. I mean, you want a job so bad, but what is the job exactly? He was set up for his

speakership to be held in the hands of one member. And that's exactly what happened yesterday. One member took him out, got seven other people to come with him. And Jen Palmieri, part of what McCarthy needed to survive because of that, because he knew he didn't have enough Republican votes from this insurgent group, he needed Democrats to help him out. John just did a good job detailing the reasons why Democrats ultimately said, you know what, we're not going to save you on this. You just opened an impeachment inquiry.

You authorized an impeachment inquiry into President Biden with no evidence that he did anything whatsoever. McCarthy, you kind of walked away from a deal we had on the budget on and on and on. And they said, you know what? We're not going to save your job. You've got to put in the work and build a relationship for us to do that. And they said no. Yeah, I was on the Hill yesterday. I talked to a lot of moderate Democrats and asked them, I said, you know, was this a tough call on your part to not back McCarthy? Because arguably chaos is not good and they may get they may end up with a worse speaker than McCarthy. And everyone said no. Like it was clear from the start that the Democratic caucus was united and it wasn't petty partisanship.

It wasn't like, oh, he was mean to us on Face the Nation. It was we can't trust this guy. You know, we make deals with him. He walks away. They made the deal with him in the spring to pass a debt limit on spending. He walked away from that, you know, and they just realized ultimately we can't save Kevin McCarthy. I also just think as a practical matter, it would not have worked. If Democrats yesterday started voting for Kevin McCarthy, what would have happened? I think Republicans would have walked away from him. Right. How House Democrats cannot prop up a Republican speaker like that ultimately is never going to work. Hey, Jim, let's really quickly here. Let's talk about what you just said about

Kevin McCarthy not being able to be trusted because of all the BS you hear coming out of Washington, D.C. and all the BS you hear about like coming from from talk shows and podcasts and everything else. You would think that everybody in Congress and everybody in Washington lies to each other and everybody in Congress and everybody in Washington hates each other. It's all showbiz. For the most part, they don't. Now, members of their own party hate each other. It's a very weird thing. You know, find two strong senators from the same state. Oh, they always, same party, they always hate each other, but they'll smile and hug each other. It's competition. But I remember, again, going back to a lesson learned in Congress, I remember very explicitly a guy went up on the floor and offered career. Nobody, nobody would trust that guy because they,

you know, you can say there's honor among thieves or whatever you want to say, but it's like being a lawyer in a small town. You don't lie to another lawyer because if you lie to another lawyer, nobody in that legal community will ever trust you again. So it is a strange thing that Kevin McCarthy made so many promises that members of both parties say he didn't keep. You can't survive that. You just can't survive it. Politics aside, you got to keep your word on the Hill because it's a very small boat everybody's rowing in. And, you know, two of the Republicans who voted against him, Nancy Mace and Tim Burchard, who I interviewed both of them yesterday, they voted for him 15 times to be speaker in January. And each of them walked away. I mean, Burchard was really upset about spending. He also he,

you know, about like the CR deal and just about spending in general and didn't see it getting under control. He was on CNN on Tuesday night and said he needed to pray over his decision about whether or not he was going to vote for McCarthy. And McCarthy called him the next day and was kind of condescending, like, so did the Lord answer your prayer? And Burchard's like, sure did. Sure did. I am not voting for you. And, you know, Nancy Mace felt like she had been misled by him on a number of issues, including issues related to, you know, post post-Roe abortion. And, you know, those two walked away from him as well for very different reasons. Yeah. Well, we have a lot to get to here,

including Donald Trump having a gag order issued on him in that case, just going from bad to worse for him. But we're going to be back in 60 seconds. And when we come back in 60 seconds, I'm going to have David Drucker take us inside the Republican conference, tell us what happened last night, and also tell us who's in line to be the next speaker of the House. That's in 60 seconds. I don't have a lot of advice for my House colleagues other than this. Follow your heart, but take your brain with you. The American people expect us to govern. And in order to govern, you have to have leadership. And you've got to stick with that leadership to give that leadership a chance.

I'd also advise all of my House colleagues to be sure and take their meds. Oh, my God. Wait a minute. That was fabulous on every level. But the first part of it is good. Know your value advice. I have to write that down. Follow your heart.

But take your brain with you. Kind of like when James Patterson was an ad exec. He wanted to be a novelist. Well, he pursued it, but he kept his job. That was Republican Senator John Kennedy of Louisiana with that assessment of House Republicans. And we're going to talk about why Democrats did what they did. But you have a lot to unpack with David. I do, David. And I saw you yesterday talking about the caucus and rightly how enraged they were at a small handful of people who blew

things up. And I bet most of them were saying what the Wall Street Journal editorial saying. Meanwhile, the House is frozen. The GOP majority is weaker and its ability to gain policy victories has been undermined. Oversight of the Biden administration will stop. Republicans in swing districts obviously in trouble. The crazy left and the crazy right are cheering, but no one else is. David, how enraged are the Republicans at these few holdouts that basically blew up their majority and turned, actually, turned the House over to the Democrats for now. Yeah, look, Joe, I think what's clear is that a number of House Republicans are extremely angry. What's unclear is whether they plan to at least try to do anything about it. I think we have to step back and understand that this is not a moderate versus

conservative battle. Most House Republicans, and I mean the vast majority, are as conservative as the next Republican philosophically and would like to govern that way. But there is a difference between the pragmatists who want to govern, who understand they have to govern, and that means they have to make choices in divided government, and those who want to fight for its own sake and have unrealistic expectations about what's possible. And so as I was talking to Republicans yesterday around Washington, some of them who were extremely upset with the small group that upended everything said there has to be payback. There has to be consequences to this sort of behavior to make sure it never happens again. And that the rules package that the next speaker will live under has to be a normal rules package that gives them running room.

And one of the things that we simply don't know, regardless of who the next speaker is, is whether they're going to have any more room to lead and govern than Kevin McCarthy has had. You know, I've covered Kevin McCarthy for more than 20 years. I was in Sacramento as a cub reporter covering the California legislature when he was a freshman assemblyman. And there have always been complaints that he tries to get from one day to the next without thinking about how all of the promises or deals he makes are going to work together. And that may be fair. It may be it may not be fair. But one thing that you and I know is true is that what happened yesterday has really been building in the party, particularly in the House of Representatives, for more than a decade where you've had recalcitrant members who have wanted

more out of divided government than is humanly possible, because whatever Republicans want to think about Democrats and their policies, they're not pushovers, just like Republicans aren't pushovers. When you get elected president of the United States, when you're the Senate majority leader, when you're the House speaker, you care as much about your stuff as Republicans do about theirs. And yet, you know, pushed by the conservative media, pushed by party leaders like Donald Trump, they've been told, no, just fight, just fight, hold out. And if you just fight, then the other side is going to capitulate and you're going to get everything you want. And that's just simply not the case. So 40 days from now or by the time they choose a new speaker, 40 days after that,

when it's time to work with a Democratic Senate and a Democratic White House to fund the government and a whole host of priorities that the American people say they want, will the new speaker be given the latitude to cut compromises that give Republicans some things, but yes, also give Democrats something. We don't know the answer to that. I mean, it's just the reality, David. You're so right. I have warned a president or two and and incoming members of of of White House staffs and senior positions. You need to understand the most important relationship you can have is with the minority leader of the Senate. If you're a Republican and that minority leader is a Democrat or if you're a Democrat and that minority leader is a Republican, that's your most important relationship. Start there and build out because this is divided government,

baby. Nobody's going to get there's a reason why we have survived for as long as we have. It's incremental. It's meant to frustrate. And David, you're so right. And the thing is, these people that are blowing things up there, they have nothing to lose. They're in safe districts where they're going to get like 70, 75 percent of the vote. And so they get to blow the House of Representatives up. They get to set unrealistic goals. And then they raise millions of dollars from twenty five dollar donations from across the country. And John, not only that, Joe, but they'll go back home to their districts and they'll be applauded for this.

So it's not just that they're in a district drawn to elect a Republican. Their base of committed voters, which is what matters in these districts, they're going to get a slap on the back and say, attaboy, keep doing it. We expect a fight. And it's the fight that matters. Anything you might achieve legislatively is automatically suspect because it's impure. Because if Joe Biden was willing to sign it and Chuck Schumer was willing to put it on the Senate floor, there must be something wrong with it. Yeah, yeah. It's called hold your breath, everybody.

American democracy. So, so, Willie, there are a lot of reasons why Republicans and Democrats didn't trust Kevin McCarthy. Kevin McCarthy last night had had defenses for everything. But, you know, if you're a Democrat, I will say I am I'm an institutionalist. There were moments yesterday when I said, man, I wish six, seven, eight Democrats would vote present because what's happening to a Republican speaker could happen to a Democratic speaker. And you don't want to have one person be able to blow an entire institution up. That's a Democrats. you know, they look at what Kevin McCarthy said on the floor,

how outraged he was. And then he visited Mar-a-Lago. Impeachment. Helped, helped, helped resurrect him. Every time he talked about January the 6th, he was blaming the Democrats for January the 6th. You know, John Heilman has brought up,

and I know you're going to him, but John Heilman has brought up and I know you're going to him, but John Heilman has brought up that he turned over security tapes of January 6th. He was so craven. We could keep going down the list. This was just a guy that would do anything to survive the next five minutes, just like Donald Trump. And nobody could trust him at the end. Yeah and he turned over those tapes why at the insistence of the same members who he who voted him out of office yesterday he asked was asked yesterday about any regrets he had he said well I guess the only regret I have is supporting these eight people who just ran me out of office raising money for

them helping them to get re-elected and he he indeed did that so John Heilman to David Drucker's point about getting the rules changed so this doesn't happen again, I guess the question is, why would Matt Gaetz and that group, why would they agree to a change when that rule gives them all the power that they've been displaying for nine months? In other words, whoever the next speaker of the House is may again face this same conundrum, which is that one member can raise the motion to vacate and therefore this tiny minority of the House of Representatives, eight or 10 members of 435, wield all the power over the majority.

In other words, isn't this just going to potentially happen again to the next speaker? Well, it all depends, Willie, on whether anybody actually learns the lessons from kevin mccarthy i mean the the whoever the next speaker is cannot if he expects to he or she expects to have a different faith than kevin mccarthy uh cannot allow can be capitulate completely to matt gates on this point once this was the ultimate thing that showed that McCarthy would do whatever he, anything, had no limits of what he would throw away, was the agreement that this was the thing Gaetz basically said to McCarthy, I want to have your political balls in my pocket. Please hand them over. McCarthy did. And if you do that, you know that eventually you're going to get squeezed, right? And that's what happened to McCarthy throughout. The next speaker has to say no to that. And if that means that a succession of speakers

have to stand up and defy Matt Gaetz, he has to be broken. Gaetz has to be broken if the Republican Party is going to be functional again. It's not going to, it's still going to be the MAGA party largely. But you see people like Chip Roy, who literally was like calling calling out Gates on yesterday, launched an incredible screed, kind of challenging him to a fistfight. It's like that's what the Republican Party needs. They have to to break the hold of Matt Gates and these eight terrorists on their own caucus. If they don't do that, this cycle will play out again and again. And if that means for a period of time they have to endure having no speaker in order to get that back to a more normal order, then I think they have got to make that compromise and live with

that pain and point the finger at Gates that he's the person who's causing this and that caucus, what's causing the chaos that unfolds. It's the only way back. So, Joe Mika, let's talk briefly about who might be the next speaker and have to deal with those legislative terrorists in the early sense of it. Calling around yesterday, Steve Scalise, the minority leader and Jim Jordan. Are they seeming leaders in the clubhouse at this moment? They both broadly appeal to conservatives in the House. They appeal to some of those far right wingers. Scalise and McCarthy have been rivals for a decade or more.

There's no secret there. Scalise, we should note, is battling cancer. He said in the last day or so that he feels good that he'd be up for this challenge. We know he was calling around last night to fellow Republicans meeting with the Texas delegation today. That's the biggest Republican state delegation. They wield a lot of influence. Scalise clearly wants this job. Jordan making calls as well. Stefanik, Emers, Cole, others mentioned. But all of these prospective speakers are going to have some trouble winning over some of the more moderate or mainstream Republicans,

those who come from Biden one districts, particularly those in New York state. So this will be a real challenge for anyone to get to the magic number to become speaker. We saw Kevin McCarthy struggle with it back earlier this year. There's every belief that that will happen again. And it comes against the backdrop of another looming government shutdown. Well, and the thing is, I just will say, I don't think it's about one member. There's always going to as long as you have this rule, there's always going to be one member that's going to do this step forward and use this to raise money. They they before they vote for another speaker, whoever that speaker may be, they need to change the rules and they need to make sure that you have to have a majority of the conference if you're if you're going to actually vacate the chair. That is the only way forward. And the Republican Party should just sit there and wait until they get that rule change passed, because right now they're just making fools of themselves. there's a split screen in America and a split screen in an America where you have Joe Biden,

a Democratic president with approval ratings in the 30s. This is a very good opportunity for the Republican Party. And yet that split screen has a four time indicted guy up in Manhattan about to lose his ability to even run a business in New York state because, well, he's been lying and cheating and defrauding people for 30, 40 years. And, you know, it's true because everybody in New York knows it's true because everybody's been saying it for 30 or 40 years. And then you've got the Republicans in the House of Representatives. They can't even keep the joint open. Think about that.

They're given one part of government to run. One. They can't even keep it open. It's just bad news. They need to set themselves up for success. Senior writer for The Dispatch, David Drucker, thank you so much for coming on this morning. We appreciate it. We'll see you soon. And coming up, Donald Trump, the other big story this morning, expected to be in court again

today for day three of his New York civil fraud trial, just one day after the judge slapped him with a gag order following a rant on social media. We'll take a look at what might happen if Trump can't keep quiet. That's ahead on Morning Joe. I've got to find the queen of all my dreams. I'm telling you, I'm telling you. Mine's a tale that can't be told. My freedom I hold dear. Live picture at 638 in the morning. Lights just now coming on at the White House.

For the first time ever, a former president of the United States has been slapped with a gag order. On the second day of Donald Trump's civil fraud trial in New York, Judge Arthur Ngarra implemented a gag order, quote, on all parties with respect to posting or publicly speaking about any member of his staff. That came after Trump posted a baseless claim about the court clerk on social media yesterday while sitting just a few feet away from her inside the courtroom. On Truth Social and in an email to his supporters, he insinuated the clerk had a personal relationship with Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer.

There is no evidence to support that. Trump later repeated those claims while speaking to reporters when the court went on a lunch break. During that break, Judge Engeron summoned one of former president's lawyers and his son, Eric, to his chambers and told them to take the post down. Once the trial resumed, the judge issued the gag order, but not before the Trump campaign sent out a disparaging email about Judge Engeron himself. If the order is broken, the judge says it could lead to, quote, swift, meaningful sanctions. Trump says he'll be back in court today for day three of the punishment phase of that trial. Joining us now, Bloomberg legal and politics reporter Eric Larson.

He was inside the courtroom yesterday covering Trump's fraud trial. Also with us, former U.S. attorney Barbara McQuaid. Good morning to you both. Eric, welcome back. It's good to have you with us again this morning. So take us inside the courtroom as this all played out yesterday and how strictly this judge intends to enforce a gag order that, let's be honest, Donald Trump is almost certain to violate.

Yeah, it was a real twist. I think we were expecting some fairly bland testimony, frankly, from an accountant. And that took a turn pretty quickly around lunch when this, as you mentioned, this gag order was issued. I think that even from the behavior that we've come to expect from Trump on social media and attacking judges and prosecutors. I think it took a lot of people by surprise that he went after this particular clerk who is very close with the judge and has been in court many times over the past year and even before the lawsuit was filed. And when she was involved with the judge's efforts to get Trump to comply with subpoenas and efforts like that. So Trump's lawyers are very familiar with this clerk. They

have worked with her closely for a while now. And so for him to take this pointed attack on her, I'm not surprised, actually, that the judge reacted in this way. And the judge does not, he's not afraid to sanction Trump. You might recall that he sanctioned Trump for failing to respond appropriately to a subpoena in the attorney general's investigation before the suit was filed. And that resulted in a $10,000 a day fine that ended up being about $110,000 before Trump finally came into compliance. So this judge is not afraid to sanction Trump. And I'm sure that he will follow through on this threat if Trump does do this again. So, Barbara, in your experience, what power does a judge have and what power does a

judge wield, no matter who the defendant is, whether they stole a pack of gum or, in this case, defrauded companies to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars, according to the evidence in this case, to enforce this kind of a gag order. Donald Trump has never been afraid to attack judges, to attack witnesses, to attack the clerk in this case inside the courtroom while the trial is going on, a punishment phase of it. So what will happen if he does it again? So judges have a great deal of discretion and power in managing cases that are before them, and that includes ordering defendants

not to speak about the case publicly. I found this to be a very refreshing and swift move by this judge after so many other judges in the other cases pending against Donald Trump have been very reluctant to impose gag orders. And the judge has the ability to impose whatever sanction he believes is appropriate.

It's usually sort of escalating levels of sanctions. And so I doubt he would be jailed after the first infraction, but perhaps a warning is the first step. Then maybe a fine is the next step. But at some point, the ultimate penalty the judge can impose is to jail Donald Trump for contempt of court if he continues to refuse to comply with the order. So, Barb, I'm just curious, because Trump does just in terms of his behavior seem more angry, actually personally angry than usual and not feigned anger to whip up the base. And I'm curious, does this seem focused on his social media posts or can the words that he uses ultimately cause sanctions and consequences as well? He was going after the judge before this loudly to reporters during these proceedings. So I wonder about that. And also, what do you think the constraints are

on his business right now, given this litigation, this trial that's going on? Well, with regard to the gag order, the judge was actually quite narrow in focusing solely on the court staff. And I think it goes beyond social media. It's just the court staff. But I think it's a little bit of a shot across the bow. It's very narrow now. But if Trump should issue something that sort of goes beyond the bounds of this, I think the judge has made it clear that he will not be reluctant to impose a gag order, even if that needs to be expanded. With regard to your second question about the Trump business enterprise, the judge already issued an order

canceling the certificates of various business entities in the Trump organization. And so for things like the financial buildings in Manhattan, the golf courses in New York, those are now sort of on hold with the idea of appointing a receiver for the purpose of liquidation. I think we have to get through this week's trial to determine what the penalties are, because the attorney general is seeking disgorgement of profits of up to $250 million. And so it could be that if that is ordered, it may be that those properties need to be liquidated to satisfy that payment. So let's move beyond the gag order and tell us a little bit else of what happened yesterday in the trial itself. And also what we should expect today. There have been some speculation

that Trump would not attend today's hearings. He was going to leave. But now he has said he will be there again. How much longer do you think that'll happen to? Yeah, we are expecting him today. And I wouldn't be surprised if he showed up for the rest of the week. He indicated, at least in a court filing and an unrelated case, that he would be here all week. But we'll see. He'll be there today. There's going to be another accountant on the witness stand. You know, yesterday, his longtime accountant, Donald Bender with Mazar's, testified, you know, under questioning from the state that he would not have signed off on Donald Trump's annual statements of financial condition if he had been aware that he wasn't

getting all of the documents necessary, including appraisals of his key properties that conflicted with what the Trump Organization had been telling him. And today we're going to hear from another accountant from Trump's new accounting firm, Whitley Penn. It's a Texas-based accounting firm. They actually challenged a subpoena earlier in the case during the investigation, trying to avoid handing over documents. They eventually agreed to do that. So now this is they're clearly trying to set a pattern here

of showing what the Trump organization handed over to their accountants to illustrate what their actual assets are. Of course, the other thing we're going to be watching for is just Trump's demeanor in court after this, you know, this gag order has silenced him in a way and he's not going to be happy about it. No, no, not used to being told exactly what to do. Bloomberg's Eric Larson and former U.S. attorney Barbara McQuaid. Thank you both very much for your reporting and insight this morning and still ahead on Morning Joe. Russian President Vladimir Putin has his eyes set on a new target. We'll explain what officials are now worried he'll do next to end U.S. support for Ukraine.

Plus, we'll get reaction from former New Jersey Governor Chris Christie about Kevin McCarthy's ouster and more. And Congressman Jim Clyburn will weigh in. Did Democrats make a smart move by not rescuing McCarthy? Morning Joe, we'll be right back. 51 past the hour, a beautiful shot of Washington, D.C. as the sun comes up this morning and people are headed to work. Well, yeah, except for people that work in the House of Representatives. They're not working for a week at least. That gets shut down. The Republicans can't do America's business. Can't keep it open, as Wall Street Journal editorial page said. Republicans cut off their

own heads. John Heilman, we've got a lot of stuff to get to. You have Christopher Krebs here, Chris Krebs here. Can we talk to him in a second? I wanted to bring up a couple of things with you, though. First of all, let's let's think back to about a year ago. Joe Biden gives a speech in Philadelphia on democracy with sort of that red background behind him. You have a lot of, quote, truth tellers saying that Biden was an idiot to talk about democracy. It was never going to help out. One of the people attacking me was Kevin McCarthy because Joe Biden said, mainstream Republicans,

you need to stand up to MAGA Republicans or you will rue the day that you don't. And McCarthy went crazy, said it was a decisive speech. Joe Biden was dividing America. A couple of weeks later, all those so-called truth tellers proved to be idiots. Americans did was dividing America. A couple of weeks later, all those so-called truth tellers proved to be idiots. Americans did care about democracy. And Kevin McCarthy, Kevin McCarthy left

with a very, very small margin because he did not heed the advice of Joe Biden here. So, I mean, you know, the White House isn't saying it, but my gosh, let's say it here. Biden warned them this was going to happen. And one other thing we haven't talked about really quickly. We saw chaos and anarchy on the Republican side of the chamber yesterday. We saw extraordinary discipline on the Democratic side with Hakeem Jeffries. There were a lot of factions, as you know, that wanted to break out, wanted to roll over the extremists and let McCarthy keep his job by not being there voting present. Hakeem Jeffries and the leadership kept that party together.

Yeah, I mean, it's extraordinary, Joe. And I'll just on the first point, just so just, you know, Biden warned them. People said he was crazy, that Republicans had to stand up to the MAGA faction. McCarthy gets this very is basically gets the tiniest majority in the midterms. And then when he gets to to actually have to do what he does to get to the deal he has to make to get to be speaker, he does the opposite of what of what Biden suggested, which is he didn't stand up to the MAGA faction at all. And now he's paid the price for it. So he kind of turned away Biden's advice twice. I would say the thing about Jeffries is there has been a question. He's in the most unenviable position in some ways you could be in American politics,

trying to follow Nancy Pelosi as Democratic leader, following the footsteps of a legend. And the question has been, when the big test comes of Kim Jeffries, will he be up to meeting that test? And this was a huge test yesterday. Democrats are like herding cats. And there are lots of good reasons that you could have come up with for doing a deal to help McCarthy out. You could have made a deal for Ukraine aid. You could have reasoned that the next person who comes after McCarthy will be worse than McCarthy, more untrustworthy, more MAGA. There were lots of, and then you've got moderate institutionalists on the Democratic side who just don't like chaos and don't want to be part of chaos, right? And Jeffries skillfully, actions, small actions like he took in the in the caucus meeting yesterday and larger acts of discipline.

He kept this unruly Democratic coalition together. There was not a single defection away from eight Republicans did this to Kevin McCarthy. But 208 Democrats did this also to Kevin McCarthy yesterday. And I think he he passed his first did this also to Kevin McCarthy yesterday. And I think he passed his first big political test with flying colors yesterday. John Heilman, thank you very much. And John mentioned Ukraine yesterday at the White House National Security Council official John Kirby reiterated U.S. support for Ukraine, despite the recent drop in funding by Congress and the latest spending bill. As Ukrainians wage a tough counteroffensive, as their children continue to get ripped from the bosom of their families,

and as winter fast approaches, it is imperative that we help them take advantage of every single day. A lapse in support for even a short period of time could make all the difference on the battlefield. Just as critically, such a lapse in support will make Putin believe that he can wait us out and that he can continue the conflict until we and our allies and our partners fold. Meanwhile, the New York Times reports that Russia's strategy to secure victory in Ukraine is to outlast Western support. According to The Times, quote, U.S. officials said they are convinced Putin intends to try to end U.S. and European support for Ukraine by using his spy agencies to push propaganda supporting pro-Russian political parties and by stoking conspiracy theories with the new technologies. Joining us now, the former director of the Department of Homeland Security, Cybersecurity's Infrastructure Security Agency, Chris Krebs. He's a partner in the cybersecurity firm, the Krebs Stamos Group. So talk about, if you could, just how they can impact U.S. support

for Ukraine and also European support. And are they already doing that? Absolutely. And I have to say that I'm actually a little taken aback because my view was that they were going to mainly target the 2024 election. They were going to try to get influence outcomes in the this time next year, but they've moved that they've been able to move their schedule up a little bit with the current chaos that's going on in the House of Representatives. And there are about three things happening right now. One is this uptick of activity across social media platforms, information operations to influence hearts and minds in Europe and elsewhere. And at the same

time, we're seeing platforms, including Twitter, pull back on the mechanisms that have been put in place over the last several years, including some of the trust and safety and election integrity teams that they've built up over the last couple of years in the wake of the 2016 election, as well as some of the tools that they have on the platform, including self-reporting of political activity. And this has really allowed a bit of a devil's playground on social media platforms, taking advantage of a moment of chaos and continuing to drive wedges across American and Western society. Hey, Chris, good morning. You've said that Twitter has kind of built the perfect platform for foreign manipulators to get into Congress, to manipulate public opinion, and also to manipulate,

of course, parts of the 2024 election process. Why do you say that? What is it about Twitter in particular that makes it so vulnerable? Well, for one reason or the other over the last several years, it seems that some political officials have started to view Twitter as the real world. And I think we all know that it's not the real world, that it's in fact a very synthetic environment. There are trolls, there are bots, there are fake users on there. And just because you say something on the internet doesn't necessarily mean it's true. And at the same time, Twitter has pulled back some of their capabilities. Just last week, they removed their election integrity team that they built up in Dublin, Ireland. And again, as I just mentioned, they removed some of the self-reporting tools, including the ability to pull up and report in election-related or political-related disinformation. So this,

again, this has allowed a number of different of the teams, the fake news, the platforms that the Russians have built up over the last couple of years to get in disinformation. And then, you know, at a time where everyone is looking for the latest breaking news, they jump on without verifying a post or something that's that has been put out there. And it just it spirals out of control effectively. So, Chris, there's no doubt that U.S. officials we heard from John Kirby there are deeply worried that now it seems like the U.S. support for Ukraine is in question. There was no funding for Ukraine in the bill, the CR, that was passed over the weekend. McCarthy had said, at least publicly, that he wanted to help. He's gone. White House

isn't sure who they're dealing with now. So what is your degree of concern there about the aid? But also back to the Twitter point, isn't the other reason why Twitter is the perfect venue for Russian propaganda is because of who owns Twitter? Who Elon Musk seems to be actively helping at times? with some of the posts that Elon posted, including the meme of Zelensky not getting the latest batch of funding from the U.S. Look, we're at a moment we're building up towards 2024. The 2024 global election cycle is going to be one of the most active in recent memory. And this is Mexico. This is the U.S., there's several European elections, and there's Taiwan. So we focus a lot on Russia, but we have to remember that China is also incredibly active in this space. And Meta just a month or so ago released a report where they

took down the largest information operation that they had seen in their history of tracking these sorts of campaigns. So it's a very active space and we have diminishing transparency and visibility into how the platforms are establishing their content moderation policies, how they're actually acting against it and what their interactions with governments are worldwide. So as things seem to get worse out there, we're losing visibility. All right, Chris Krabs, thank you very much for coming on the show this morning. We appreciate it.