Morning Joe - Morning Joe 10/6/23

Episode Date: October 6, 2023

Trump reportedly shared nuclear sub secrets

Several months ago, a foreign policy expert on the international level went to advise Donald Trump. And three times he asked about the use of nuclear weapons. Three times he asked, at one point, if we have them, why can't we use them? That's one of the reasons why he has he just doesn't have foreign policy experts around. Trump asked three times, three times in an hour briefing, why can't we use nuclear weapons? From wondering about the use of nuclear weapons to stealing war, to reportedly spilling secrets about nuclear submarines. Donald Trump has a long history of problematic behavior with intelligence, classified intelligence. We'll have more on that new nuclear, nuclear intelligence, Willie. I mean, this is again that in his love of autocrats is kind of a bad mix.

Yeah. I mean, I mean, we all we all remember that that that that disturbing time when we said he was ill fit. But, you know, this guy that's been reckless with reckless with intelligence from the very beginning. I mean, we hit one of his first visitors in the White House. He had he had the foreign minister of Russia and the Russian ambassador of the United States. And what did he do? He spilled classified secrets that we got from another country, had no reporters in there, no U.S. reporters there, but had, you know, Russian, probably Russian spies posing as reporters inside the White House. He's just just reckless and dangerous. But we've known that for, well, six, seven years.

Yeah, we shouldn't lower the bar for reckless, dangerous, outrageous. It's all of those things. But as you say, it's also completely unsurprising. This reporting that we'll get into from ABC News and The New York Times about him talking about nuclear submarines with an Australian businessman at Mar-a-Lago fits because it comes in the post-presidential time when we know now that he had documents, classified documents, hidden in the bathroom and tucked away all around Mar-a-Lago. Also, the patio at Mar-a-Lago strikes again. Remember, right after he became president, he was sitting out there with the Japanese prime minister

when North Korea launched a test rocket, And he was just talking openly as the membership sat around about what he had just heard, what he knew and huddling with Steve Bannon and Mike Flynn out on the patio. So, again, outrageous. Yes. Surprising. No. Well, again, these are these aren't things that that, again, are just like, oh, don't worry about it. This is no president. No president would would would do this just other other than Donald Trump. And so, again, I'm I remain just absolutely I'll try to be I'll try to be emotionally level on this. Fascinated by the fact that people are still willing to vote for a guy that steals nuclear secrets, takes them to his beach club, steals war plans, takes them to his beach club. And now in this case, talks the specifics about our nuclear submarines and talks about how close we can get to Russian nuclear.

I mean, this is the sort of information that Russian spies would die to get. And that our spies would risk their lives to get from other countries. And Donald Trump's just sitting there at Mar-a-Lago blabbing it. And then this guy goes around and tells maybe 20 more people. Yeah. Oh, it's a whole nother problem. Also ahead on Morning Joe, Republican Congressman Jim Jordan picked up a big endorsement in his bid to become House speaker. But one prominent Republican is warning the party about what could happen if he gets the gavel. Along with Joe, Willie and me on this

Friday morning, we have the host of Way Too Early, White House Fair Chief at Politico, Jonathan Lemire, White House editor for Politico, Sam Stein, and President Emeritus of the Council on Foreign Relations, Richard Haass, is with us. So we've got a lot of reporting on Donald Trump's legal cases, the many different legal cases and the many different ways that he is trying to drag these cases out. But we'll start. Well, and we also have very fascinating polls. And Jonathan O'Meara, I want to go to you just really briefly on this. There's been one poll after another poll after another poll this week

that has shown that the Republicans are just absolutely bashing Democrats when it comes to issues. In fact, Gallup had a poll a few days ago where they reported the largest gap between Republicans and Democrats since they started taking these polls. And despite the fact Republicans have a massive lead, we always go like, how could people still go along and Republicans to go along with Donald Trump? I mean, a lot of them aren't, despite the fact that Democrats are minus 20, minus 25, even minus 30. Unlike polls on who do you trust more to take care of the economy? Both both parties are are not liked or trusted by 56, 57, 58 percent of the population.

And Joe Biden in the latest poll that's out among likely voters beating Donald Trump by three points. It's amazing the advantage Republicans have are two points that Republicans have going in to this election on the issues. And yet Donald Trump keeps dragging them down. Yeah, no, they're saddled with this Trump issue. And if they had any other candidate there, I think there'd be real alarm among Democrats and the White House about what these polls are showing. We just ticked through one of that Marquette University poll we just showed there. Yes, the top line shows Trump and Biden, Biden up slightly, but within the margin of error. It's a close race. We know that. But

look at this. Republicans over Democrats on issues like inflation, the economy, immigration. These are 25, nearly 30 point margins creating jobs. It's unbelievable. Huge, huge numbers. Now, the other way, Democrats, as you might expect, more trusted, more on climate change, abortion, policy, health care, Medicare and the like. But elections so often, Joe, as you well know, are decided on the economy. And these are big warning signs here. And certainly there has been some other surveys and swing state voters, particularly among suburban voters who dislike Trump immensely, but still really disapprove of how this White House has handled

the economy. And the White House thinks that can change. They point to some underlining metrics to say things are getting better. They think that narrative will change come next year. But this is something that deeply beefs. Do we really think that narrative is going to change? I don't think that narrative is going to change. I mean, the economists, Willie, are still saying that, hey, we may still be headed for a hard landing. The economists are still saying interest rates may continue to go up right now. I mean, the White House, I think they're starting to realize they made a really bad mistake with this Bidenomics rollout. And reportedly, Joe Biden was against that and and they went ahead with it anyway.

It's not working. You can't convince people the economy is going great when they don't feel like the economy is going great, even though our economy is going a hell of a lot better than any other countries. Yeah. And the idea that it's just narrative doesn't work for voters either. Why aren't why aren't you listening to our story that we're telling you that things are going well? Well, because maybe in my life, I think things cost too much is usually the answer you hear. And John, that was the concern when they went with the Bidenomics argument, which was, OK, yeah, there are a lot of good things to talk about in this economy. But when you call it Bidenomics, you now own everything about the economy. And

that's what Republicans are using. Right. And that rebrand hasn't worked at all to this point. And numbers can be what the numbers are, but perception is different. And voters are going to probably cast their ballots based on the perception. And immigration, another issue there that I know Joe Hammer's on a lot here is being a real problem for Democrats. And we're seeing that poll reflects it.

And now we're seeing a Biden administration doing a about face on a couple issues about deportation of Venezuelan migrants is also construction of Donald Trump's border wall. Now, some of that's because they have to because of a funding issue. But it is a nod that that's a vulnerability, too. And if the Republicans and anyone other than Donald Trump at the top of the ticket, there could be real, real worries. But even with Trump, this is going to be very, very close. And there are warning signs for the White House.

Listen, all the internal polls that I've seen in the swing states are just really tight. Whether you're looking at Pennsylvania, Wisconsin or Michigan, the internal polls show show these these candidates close, not so close in Georgia. Trump is Trump actually from the internal polls I've seen. Trump is moving ahead in Georgia right now. So a long way to go. We're just talking, though, about the problems right now that that all sides are facing. That said, because it's such a long time to go. We're just talking, though, about the problems right now that all sides are facing. That said, because it's such a long time to go, I'm the one that says, you know, you can talk a year out about who you're going to vote for, who you're not going to vote for. I'm against the incumbent.

But when you get to that voting booth, things change. And I still think when people get into the voting booth, it's going to be hard for them to check off Donald Trump, a guy who says he wants, you know, he wants the chairman of the Joint Chiefs executed, a guy that says he wants to ban TV stations that he doesn't like, a guy that says, you know, says it says the most horrific things, jokes about 82 year old people getting their heads bashed in. But Sam Stein, one underlying issue that again, even a week out from the 2022 races, nobody was talking about because it was showing up at three, four or five percent of the polls taking women's right to choose away. It proved to be a firestorm. And on Election Day, 35 percent of voters said that abortion was

a huge issue. Things haven't gotten better since then. Ron DeSantis in the state of Florida has enacted a six week ban since the 2022 midterms. He won that huge, huge landslide and then did and then passed a six week ban that has Republican some of the biggest supporters of Republicans financially saying that's way too radical. We can't go along with that. There's so many cross currents right right now. You'd usually say it's the economy, stupid, but because of Donald Trump and because of some really extreme policies, you know, like in Michigan, swing state, an 1849 ban because abortion ban. I mean, it's leveling the playing field for Democrats when Democrats should be down 10 points. Yeah. And you know who thinks that this could be kryptonite for Republicans is Donald Trump, right? Donald Trump is out there publicly saying that this is a bad issue for Republicans, that they should not be embracing six week bans. He's reluctantly

said he would embrace harsh abortion legislation himself and touted the fact that he's responsible for the three Supreme Court justices that ended Roe. But he's also been very upfront about what he thinks are the political costs of it, and he's moved away from it. And so, yeah, that's a factor, obviously, and will be in 2024. And look, I mean, we're so far out, right? We're, what, 14 months? It's hard to just divine what's going to happen based on polls.

What we have seen, which has given some Democratic optimism, is the special election results that have often seen Democrats outperform historical margins and expectations. Now, will that pretend anything for 2024? Who knows? Again, we're so far out. The economy could take another twist or turn. Again, I completely agree with Jonathan and Willie, like the Bidenomics rebrand. Really bad, potentially fatal. You don't want to be owning an economy where people don't think that it's going well for them. Also, it centers the economy on Biden and not on the people, which a lot of Democrats have been worried about. But we have just so much time and so many different concurrent issues that I think we just need to take a bit of a breath.

You know? Yeah. No doubt about it. We've got a lot of time and I'm so glad you brought up those special elections. You look at a state like Florida, Ron DeSantis won in a landslide. Republicans won in a landslide. They won because Democrats just didn't fight. Democrats weren't in the state of Florida. It wasn't competitive. So what happened when Democrats pulled up all of their stakes, left, didn't fund the 2022 race? In 2023, there's a special election. And what happens for the first time in a long time? A Democrat wins in Jacksonville. In Jacksonville. So anything can happen, but Sam's right. We got a long way to go. But look at these special elections like the Jacksonville mayor's race. And you see again that story and we'll talk to Richard Haass about the damage done by new reporting on Trump and nuclear secrets. Former President Donald Trump reportedly shared classified information about American nuclear submarines and their capabilities.

Oh, my God. Some of the most protected secrets. With an Australian businessman who then allegedly shared the information with more than a dozen foreign officials. Sources familiar with the matter tell ABC News. Meanwhile, two sources tell The New York Times that Trump's disclosures potentially endangered the U.S. nuclear fleet. The businessman, Anthony Pratt, is a member at Mar-a-Lago who reportedly discussed the submarines with Trump in April 2021. Great. According to The Times, the former president revealed at least two pieces of critical information about the U.S. submarines' tactical capabilities, including how many nuclear warheads the vessels

carried and how close they could get to their Russian counterparts without being detected. It's just it's just at what point are you a Russian agent? It's just staggering. And at what point do people stop voting for somebody who is actively and aggressively helping the Russians either subvert this democracy or just by being a fool? But you help Russia. Sources tell ABC News that Pratt described Trump's remarks to at least 45 other people, including six journalists, 11 of his company's employees, 10 Australian officials and three

former Australian prime ministers. Why didn't you just go on the Joe Rogan show, dude? The potential disclosure was reported to special counsel Jack Smith's team. Enough, enough. This is enough. Richard Haass, how damaging, how damaging is this information outside the skiff? Let's keep people a little bit of background here, Joe. You have levels of classification, confidential, secret, top secret. And then at the level of top secret, you have what are called compartments. And when I was in government, admittedly, some time ago, you had more than a thousand compartments. And the whole idea was to restrict access to the most sensitive information to those who literally had a need to know.

Intelligence dealing with submarines is among the most protected information just because of their importance to American strategic deterrence, to stability more broadly. So the idea that this kind of information was widely shared, this is the kind of stuff, at a minimum, you strip people of their security clearances and at worst you prosecute them. So this is just irresponsibility on steroids, in addition that it gives potentially the Russians all sorts of insights into capabilities on our part, vulnerabilities on their part. Imagine you're a friendly government, Australia in there, Israel, others. What does this do to your willingness to share sensitive information with us? I think this has a really chilling effect on our ability to work with our allies and partners. At the same time, it's a gift to

our adversaries. And Richard, you have to put this in context, do you not, of when this took place, which is April of 2021, which is when we now know those boxes of classified documents were stuffed in every corner of Mar-a-Lago. In other words, not a one-off. Exactly. A pattern. Just what I was going to say. This is not an exception. This is the rule. And this is part of a pattern of irresponsibility, of negligence and essentially lawbreaking. Again, then dealing with some of the most sensitive national security secrets that we own. So, Richard, what's the fallout now today with this revelation in the national security community? Like, how does this scramble what the U.S. needs to know or protect and be aware of what, you know, Australia is an ally, but not everyone this guy spoke to may have

been. Well, again, I expect foreign governments are looking at what they might have shared under the Trump presidency, trying to do a bit of a damage assessment. Imagine if certain stuff was shared with us, read certain other countries, what might that mean? If I were in the Navy, I would be thinking about what difference does this make? Specifically, what was potentially shared if it reached the Russians? What would be the tactical or strategic consequences of that information? I don't know. I don't have access to this information, Jonathan. And I don't know. I don't have access to this information. When I was in government, I had no need to know this sort of thing. This is really restricted to people in the military, in the intelligence community dealing with this type

of military involvement. This is not the average. No diplomat would have access to this. You didn't need to know it. So, Sam, just to get on the record here, the Trump people say the story lacks proper context. Unclear what the context is under which you would talk about the capabilities of nuclear submarines with an Australian businessman on the patio at Mar-a-Lago. Provide some context, please. The context, the context is what was uh on the menu that night what they're eating the appetizers yeah we need to know that uh no i i can't get by richard's point uh that um if anyone else uh lower than trump had done this right just you know imagine someone who had you know unique access to a staffer. And what about spilling it? We were

probably looking at a prosecution, right? And this is just, you know, the double standards, or the different standards, I should say, that Trump has held to are not just political, right? Like, I know a lot of Democrats out there saying, oh, my God, if Joe Biden were to have done this, if Hillary Clinton were to have done this, we would never stop hearing about this. And that's probably true, right? We heard forever about email servers. But the real double standard is, you know, Trump and people below him. And he does things that other people would be prosecuted or fired for. But he and his staff dismisses saying, well, that lacks context or, well, he's the president, he can do it and so on and so forth. And, you know, it's just that's what's striking to me.

And maybe Richard could elaborate on that. Like, what would actually happen if a staffer, you know, was caught revealing these types of secrets? Like, how would that be handled internally and by prosecutors? Oh, that's easy. I mean, in the short run, you'd lose all access to any classified information. You'd probably lose access to your computer and your job. At best, you'd be on administrative lead. An investigation would be begun by the security services. At some point, it would be handed over to the Justice Department. And we've seen this. This is what happens to people who are either reckless with classified information and in

some cases that actively handed it over to others. This is not a gray area. This is pretty black or white. I mean, it's pretty black and white. And you look back again and look at officials who have done so far less. Look at General Petraeus, which, of course, the great irony here, Willie, is General Petraeus. Now, one of the reasons Donald Trump said that he didn't select General Petraeus as secretary of state is because he had classified information on his laptop. Nothing like this, nothing like nuclear secrets and that he just couldn't let him be secretary

of state because it was so offensive to the other generals who were working with him. You look at Sandy Berger again, nothing close to nuclear secrets or nuclear war plans. You look at Sandy Berger again, nothing close to nuclear secrets or nuclear war plans. You look at at Director Deutsch of the CIA. These are all people who took things that Richard Richard, I mean, will tell you well, well below nuclear secrets because nuclear secrets are some of the most protected secrets. You think about, let's say that General Mattis had leaked information or blabbed information about war plans, nuclear secrets or nuclear subs. He would have been prosecuted. He probably would have spent time in jail. And that's what's so irritating about

Republicans talking about double standards. Nobody, nobody has lived by a double standard like that is and been given a wider berth than Donald Trump. And here's yet another example of it. This would say this would send any of those people straight to jail. Yes. Yeah. And it has sent people to jail for much less. And it is this bigger idea, as you say, of grading Donald Trump on a curve. Why does he get a pass on this stuff when no one else would? Why do Republicans go, oh, yeah, he said he thinks the general Milley should be executed. That's just him popping off. It's Donald being Donald. They've moved the window so far that they excuse almost everything.

And there is an important point to make here that this isn't just a fascinating story or curiosity. This information, according to The New York Times and ABC News, intersects with Jack Smith, the special counsel's investigation, which may now call Anthony Pratt, this Australian businessman, as a witness in the documents case against Donald Trump, displaying further how cavalier he was with classified information around Mar-a-Lago. All right. Coming up, new legal developments in five, five separate cases involving the former president, including a claim from Trump's legal team that he's immune

from federal charges related to election interference. Hold on a second. We have a little one coming down. Did he get a vaccine? Denied. Morning Joe will be right back. Donald Trump's legal team is working to delay or dismiss several of his ongoing legal battles involving the former president. First, the Trump team moved to dismiss the indictment in his federal election interference case by claiming presidential immunity. The former president claims his efforts to overturn his 2020 election loss and remain in the White House were at the, quote, heart of his official responsibilities as president, end quote. In New York City, the Trump team filed to have his case dismissed regarding the falsifying of business records, the one related to hush money payments involving adult film actor Stormy Daniels. The team argued prosecutors waited too long to bring that case. Next up, the former president's classified documents case, where Trump's lawyers once again asked Judge Aileen Cannon to postpone the trial until after next year's presidential election.

Also, the former president unexpectedly dismissed a $500 million lawsuit against his former lawyer, Michael Cohen, yesterday while vowing to revisit it at a later date. Trump had been scheduled to sit for a deposition in the case on Monday. And lastly, Donald Trump's lawyers are expected to ask for a pause in his civil fraud trial today after an irate former president left the courthouse in New York City on Monday. His attorneys returned yesterday, informing Judge Arthur N. Gorin of their plans to seek a stay in a case where the former president could have to pay a $250 million fine and be stripped of all of his New York state properties. With us to sort through all of that, New York Times investigative reporter Suzanne Craig. She has reported extensively on the finances and taxes of Donald Trump and won a Pulitzer Prize for her work there. Also, NBC News legal analyst

Catherine Christian. She's a former assistant district attorney in the Manhattan D.A.'s office. Good morning to you both. You need one of those big old boards where you connect the yarn like Carrie in Homeland to keep track of all these. So, Suzanne, let's start with what you've been covering, this this civil fraud trial. Where are we in all of this? We're going to see Donald Trump in court again, or has he sort of made his blustery point outside the courthouse and moving along? So he was here for a few days this week and then exited. And the attorney general has been there every day that I've been down.

And we don't know if Donald Trump is going to come back. I think every day you sort of wonder, will he be there? But there's speculation he may come back for Michael Cohen's testimony next week. That's a grudge match that's been going on for a long time. We don't know exactly when Michael Cohen will be up, but it could be kind of Wednesday, Thursday. A lot of it depends on the pacing of the other witnesses. There's some sort of dry accounting testimony now. And then after that, Michael Cohen should be up.

That would be fascinating. His longtime right hand staring him down. Right. And Michael Cohen has already sort of been this presence in the courtroom. And there's been in the opening arguments, his name was evoked by Trump's lawyers. And he was called a pathological liar. And you can't trust him. You know, Michael Cohen on MSNBC the day before the

trial was like, I'm going to be there Monday morning and I'm going to face him down and I'm going to look him in the eye. So I think a lot of things are building right now to Michael Cohen's testimony. It's going to be it'll be interesting to see if Donald Trump does come back to the city for it. Catherine, while we're on the subject of Michael Cohen and that separate case where Donald Trump had sued for five hundred million dollars, suddenly dropping the case. Why? Because he didn't want to be deposed. Exactly. Because, you know, maybe he forgot that if you're suing, the defendant has a right to call you to a deposition and take your testimony. So he was reminded of that. And I think that's probably the reason why he said, never mind. Joe. Hey, Suzanne, for those of us who have known Donald Trump for a long time and, you know, whether it's Reverend Al or us or other people,

we just notice a difference in the way Donald Trump is responding to this civil challenge in Manhattan right now and how he's responded almost with contempt to the criminal cases. This seems to be hitting so much closer home to him. I'm wondering, as somebody who has followed him and reported on him on these fronts, if you're not sensing that, too, that he understands this is a much more direct, immediate threat to who he is, how he sees himself and his ability to move forward, living, living a lavish lifestyle. I think, I think there's two reasons for that. I think it's so true. And I think that, you know, the, the first reason is it does really strike to his heart. This is his image. He ran on being a self-made billionaire to be president. That was the reason that we were supposed to vote for him.

But this is, you know, back to when he was a kid. It's all about the money. I mean, he always was, I'm worth this, even when he wasn't. You know, he was in the 1970s. He was appropriating his father's wealth and saying it was his own. His whole essence is this. But I think the other reason that this case strikes so much just to home right now is it's a trial going forward, but there's already been real repercussions on it. The judge had an order that he has already been found liable for fraud.

And even more than that, there's now a receiver over his business. else is going to be running it. And they're fighting a real life fight here that's already had just huge repercussions for the business. Their business certificates have been pulled. So you're seeing, I think, both. You're seeing something that strikes to his heart. And then there's something that's actually happened that's huge. And at the end of this, there could be hundreds of millions of dollars in penalties. I can't see that that's going to go down to 30 or 40 million. So you could be seriously looking at the liquidation of some of his assets in New York. They're fighting for their life in there and you're seeing it. I totally agree.

I think the second part of what she said, Joe, is the bottom line, because he cannot function without his businesses at least appearing to function. Right. And they're already being impacted. Keep in mind, he's showing up and show up at, you know, things that you would imagine would be existential threats to our democracy as it pertains to the indictments. This is a fraud trial. He showed up for three days to a trial he's already lost. Right. And he's making the arguments to reporters outside that the judge has already ruled on on the inside.

He doesn't have to be there. Yet he's saying, oh, they're forcing me to be here. No, they're not. I know there's some people in Fox News that are saying, I can't believe they're forcing him. Nobody's forcing him to be there. Let me just say what happens on television that leans right, whether it be Fox or Newsmax.

They only cover Trump saying, I don't have to be here and I'm stuck here. I should be on the campaign trail. I have to be here and I'm stuck here. They don't actually ever correct that. So when they do cover these stories that are extremely negative and reveal horrible facts about Donald Trump, they somehow just run soundbites of Trump and then repeat what Trump said and then move on. Right, right, the twisting of the facts. They don't cover the story.

So it is, this is a challenge. And Donald Trump has been lying about how much he's worth his entire life. I think it's remarkable that when he put Art of the Deal out and painted himself as this mastermind that Americans said, wait, that's the business person I want to be. At that same time, the New York Times was reporting that over the decade when they got the tax returns that he lost more money. He reported more losses than any American at that time. So the art of the deal? No, thank you.

I do want to ask you, Catherine, usually when I look at appeals that Donald Trump is putting out there, I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. But there's still, there's one that we read that I'm curious what your thoughts are. And that is about the Manhattan D.A. taking too long to bring the hush money case. There have been a lot of legal commentators who have shown little patience for Donald Trump's arguments and his lawyers arguments. But this is one. This is one thing that, again, a lot of commentators after Alvin Bragg put out those charges were scratching their head going, we don't exactly get this.

Is there a possibility he could win that appeal? Not not for that ground, because the statute of limitations in New York for a felony is five years. But there was covid. And during covid, the then governor Cuomo extended, basically told the statute of limitations because there was no grand jury, there were no trials. So they, the Manhattan DA's office, calculated that they were within the statute of limitations. So that argument will fail. It will fail with Judge Marchand, who's the trial judge, and it will fail if he's convicted on appeal. So, Catherine, let's turn to one of the other legal developments with Trump. And there are so many. This is the seemingly Hail Mary that his legal team is throwing in the election interference case in Washington, the federal case,

not the one in Georgia, suggesting that because he was conducting these duties as president, therefore he has a blanket immunity, basically suggesting that no president can ever be held responsible. No president can ever be charged with a crime. What's your assessment of that? Is there any chance that could be successful? Well, what and I showed Suzanne the old clip of Richard Nixon telling David Frost when the president does it, it's not illegal. That's basically their argument that, you know, you cannot prosecute criminally a sitting president of the United States. The law is you cannot sue a lawsuit, a sitting president of the United States. The law is you cannot sue a lawsuit a sitting president of the United States. So what this will what will happen here in the end,

it's really about delay because Judge Chunkin will deny it. It will then be appealed to the D.C. Circuit Court of Appeals. They probably will deny it. And I think they will move quickly to decide it. But then they're going to file cert, meaning they're going to ask the Supreme Court of the United States to hear it. And that's where the issue is, not whether or not they're going to say they're right. Will they take their time in deciding it and decide it after the election? This is all about trying to delay that January 6th trial until after November 2024. New York Times investigative reporter Suzanne Craig and NBC News legal analyst Catherine Christian, thank you both very much for being on the show this morning with your insights.

You know, we should have asked them about Mr. Pillow. No, we're going to do that soon. You think so? Well, we're going to talk about Mr. Pillow. You know, I think we figured out why his pillows are so lumpy. Remember that guy said his pillows were lumpy and he got really angry? He gets really mad if you talk about his lumpy pillows, but there was one person in a deposition who said that is, you know, we're not going to talk about your lumpy pillows, insinuating they're super lumpy. Well, yeah, he said they're lumpy.

Maybe it's because he's keeping his money in his pillows and mattresses. Of course, only singles. Maybe he puts rocks in them. Only singles. No, he's putting, because he's not paying his lawyers, that's for sure. So maybe he's shoving the $78 that he still has left. Yeah, or the ugly slippers. I don't know.

Wait, you got me those for Christmas last year. I did not, but Rudy apparently wears them. Does Rudy wear them? He loves ugly slippers. I don't know. Wait, you got me those for Christmas last year. I did not. But Rudy apparently wears them. Does Rudy wear them? He loves the slippers. Yeah. He did like a commercial for Mr. Pillow. Well, those things must have the reverse lightest touch.

And the thought of Rudy in the slippers. Rudy's feet in those slippers. But I mean, I don't know. What is it? You wear the slippers, you lose all your money? I don't know. We'll talk about all this coming up this is like i have to take an anti-grim fairy tale where mr pillow slippers

no thanks lose all your money we're going to talk about how rudy and mr pillow can't pay the lawyers and now uh mr pillows lawyers are saying you, you and your lumpy pillows can exit. We'll be right back. We're not going to look for him. Lumpy pillow. Yeah. Love me, Pillow. Yeah. Lawyers defending. It's kind of rainy in New York City. Yeah.

Kind of some sad music to help you jump out of bed. Yeah. At 6.45 a.m. on the East Coast. Poor Mr. Pillow. I know. You know, he didn't learn the lesson that my grandfather told me. What was that? He said, Joey, if you're going to start a business selling lumpy pillows.

You shouldn't sell lumpy pillows. He said, no, but my granddad said, but if you are. Yeah. He said, just make sure at the same time you don't spread a lot of conspiracy theories and try to do your part to overturn American democracy. That's a bad mix. That was one thing that he told me that that was like number two. Number one was don't go swimming right after a big meal. So there are a lot of things. These are some basics, right? Yeah. Willie's grandfather told him the same thing. These are just some

basics. You do it. Please don't either get cramps or you go bankrupt. Yeah. And I mean, come on, Willie. Does this guy not have a granddad telling the stuff? And during the 30 minutes you wait between the meal and the swimming, don't call for martial law during a presidential election, that kind of stuff. You don't want to be doing any of that. And by the way, I've never tried the my pillow, so I don't want to be doing any of that. And by the way, I've never tried the MyPillow, so I don't want to disparage it, but generally speaking, what you want is a nice, flat, cool pillow. You don't want all those lumps

interrupting your sleep all night. No. Alright. I guess if we don't laugh... It's like you're hiking the Appalachian Trail. Your neck is like... Up and down and up and down in my domain yet. Good God. No, you're still in Tennessee. And you just like up and down and up and down in my domain yet. Good God.

I know you're still in Tennessee. And you just wake up. Have you guys noticed that the Siri on this updated iPhone picks up everything? Look, everything we've just said is going to my daughter. Well, you know, first of all, first of all, the Russians, thank you for doing that. Secondly, never, ever will he turn on Siri because it does exactly that. It doesn't work. It's ridiculous. All right, back to the topic.

Are we talking about Mr. Pillow? Lawyers defending the My Lumpy Pillow guy. I usually don't have neck problems, but you just mentioned Mr. Pillow. Did you use My Pillow, My Lumpy Pillow? No, you gave me the slippers, but you didn't give me the pillow. Ew, ew. All right. Okay.

Lawyers defending the my lumpy pillow guy are seeking to dump him as a client. Why? Apparently because he hasn't paid them. This is kind of going around in Trump circles. It's a theme. It is a theme. Those attorneys are currently defending my lumpy pillow founder and CEO Mike Lindell and his business against defamation claims from voting machine companies and smartmatic and Dominion voting systems, along with a third lawsuit brought by a former Dominion employee. All three claimed their reputations were damaged by Lindell's repeated claims of frauds running the 2020 presidential election. But now attorneys for Lindell claim he is months

behind on paying their legal bills amounting to millions of dollars. And they say they can no longer afford to represent. Does nobody does nobody does nobody in this crowd understand that you get retainers from these people? I mean, because they don't pay. I mean, Lindell, of course, praised his lawyers yesterday. Well, who thought they would pay? I know. What lawyer thought that guy would pay his bills and Rudy Giuliani would pay his bills?

And quite frankly, Donald Trump, when he runs out of money. Mr. Pillow told NBC News that he would gladly keep paying them if he wasn't broke. But of course, as my grandfather could have told him if you'd only listened to him, don't try to run a pillow business, an online pillow business while you're trying to foment, you

know, a coup. Yeah. And as Willie said, in between your fried chicken and your swim in the lake, calling for martial law. Willie, that never works. Now, by the way, your grandfather was a visionary that he saw online shopping coming that long ago. He did. He did.

Really something. And with the pillows specifically. This guy, no. Born in like 6 and he saw this coming. All right. Wait, but by the way, so Mike, in all seriousness, Mike Lindell has been sued by Dominion for one point three billion dollars. He says he's lost one hundred million dollars because his product was pulled from stores like Bed Bath & Beyond and Walmart. He says it's cancel culture. They say, no, we don't want to be in bed with a guy who's calling for the overturning of elections and martial law and disparaging people.

And so they have a business decision to make and they stop using the Mr. Pillow stuff. So he says that's why he has no money to pay. But in the end, like all these guys, he's the victim. Yeah, and always the victim. By the way, let us just say, I just want everybody to know, we've never used Mr. Pillow's pillows or slippers. No, it's too lumpy. Maybe they're the best in the world. We just hear they're lumpy.

People say, Willie, people say they're lumpy. It's like you're in Accus Hiking, the Appalachian Trail. And that's what some people say. Many people are saying, yeah. Many, many people are saying that. Anyway, how's Rudy doing, America's mayor? Not too good. Not too good. No, Rudy Giuliani needs new lawyers now in his Georgia election interference case. An

Atlanta based attorney told The Hill he filed a motion Wednesday to withdraw from the case. The move leaves Giuliani without any local legal counsel after another Georgia based attorney withdrew from the case last week. Can't believe it. Neither attorney gave a reason for their decision, but it could be a money issue. Last month, Giuliani was sued by his former lawyers who claim he owes them nearly $1.4 million in legal fees that he has not coughed up. Giuliani has pleaded not guilty in his Georgia election case. There's a pattern. Giuliani also owes the IRS more than half a million dollars in taxes from 2021. He also is facing a lien on a property he owns in Palm Beach, Florida. Giuliani reportedly has put that property up for sale. An advisor to

Giuliani responded to NBC News yesterday with a statement writing in part, Mayor Giuliani, through his accountant, has a formal agreement with the IRS writing in part, Mayor Giuliani, through his accountant, has a formal agreement with the IRS to pay off the liability. Remember, he's been calling and calling and trying to get Donald Trump to help him with the legal bills. Donald Trump finally, a couple of weeks ago, held that fundraiser for Rudy at Mar-a-Lago to raise money for his legal defense fund. Unclear where that money went or if it's helping Rudy with his problems. He actually got it. Yeah, I mean, it's probably the Sons probably kept 75 percent of it like they always did with the with those stories we heard about the when they were fundraising. No, it's it's Sam Stein is not going well for him. And he says he's striking a deal with the IRS. But I'm not so sure the IRS

is going to forgive all that for a couple of cases of Chateau Guam. I mean, he doesn't have the money to pay this off. I don't know how he gets out of this without going bankrupt. It's so funny you said that. You took my joke. I was going to suggest that Lindell pays lawyers off with pillows, but your version of this was much better than mine. These guys are going broke. There's a first here. No, they have trouble paying off their bills because they're broke. And this is what happens when you get yourself embroiled in a ton of legal problems. You end up paying a lot of legal fees. And, you know, again, I'm with Mika. You know, if you're going to hire these as clients, you're a lawyer, you should probably

get a retainer. And at least in the case of Donald Trump, there was that lawyer down in Florida who said, no, you're going to give me three million dollars in an escrow account before I decide to represent you. So some lawyers know they're know what to do. Not all of them, though. Yeah, no way. Sam Stein, thank you so much for being with us. It's always great to see you. We should stop for a second. I want to talk to Richard about David Ignatius. Our good friend David Ignatius has gone to Kiev and is reporting from Kiev and it's incredible reporting there. But before,

Willie, I do want to just stop for one second. We're these guys have been acting outrageously. So we're we're we're joking around about it, just how how stupid and outrageous they've been behaving. But this goes back to, you know, we talk about gravity. These people lied for years, just lied for years. They called for martial law. They lied through their teeth about stolen elections. They lied about Smartmatic. They lied about, you know, they put people, you know, Rudy Giuliani put people's lives in danger by lying about them stealing votes from, you know, Georgia vote counting centers.

And the bill comes due. I mean, the bill the bill is coming due for Donald Trump. This is the phase we are in in American history. We're the age of Trump where you could lie about stolen elections. You could lie about people that were election workers. You could lie about you could lie about Sandy Hook parents. You could you could say the most horrific lies. All of those bills came due, all of them. And now we're seeing it for the ringleader of these lies, this alternative reality. We're seeing that come due in a way that I think is going to end up being financially crushing to him. And I think we should just step back for a second because for years

we've asked, how do you get away with this? How do people just lie through their teeth and they know they're lying? And the people that are letting them go on news networks know they're lying and they just get away with it. Well, kids who are watching, guess what? They're not. The bill always comes due. And Willie, it looks like it's coming due not only for Mike Lindell and Rudy Giuliani, a tragic story, but also for Donald Trump. Yeah, it sure does. And I think a lot of people were impatient. Why does Donald Trump get away with everything? And while people were asking those questions, special counsel Jack Smith was building a case. D.A. Fonny Willis was building a case down in Fulton County, Georgia. The cases

in New York were being built. And now Donald Trump, we've seen him this week sitting in a courtroom for three days. We're going to see him next year in a bunch of different courtrooms. He is facing the music beginning now and will continue through this year. And as you say, the people who snuggled up to him, I think expecting that he would protect them, guys like Rudy Giuliani and the Mr. Pillow guy, they thought being close to Donald Trump was going to save them, was going to rescue them in some way. And now here we are. Donald Trump isn't paying back your loyalty. They thought that they participated cheaply in this attempt to overturn the election of 2020,

to throw out rhetoric, to say things that just got them attention, that got them relevance in the case of Rudy Giuliani. Well, now he's effectively broke. Donald Trump's not going to save him. When you say things about election workers in Georgia, like Ruby Freeman and Shea Moss, and you make wild accusations defaming their character when they were volunteering to

participate in the process, that bill's come due too. So yes, it took some time, but the bills all across the board are beginning to come due for all these guys. And you know what? So what is so again, I don't know. A lot of people have always hated Rudy. There are others that commended him for what he did after 9-11. I certainly did. And the turnaround of New York City by, if you want to say, Rudy and the commissioners and everybody else from 93 to 95. Remarkable. The thing about Giuliani was that I talked to him privately. Well, Donald Trump was running. He wasn't a Donald Trump fan. He just wasn't. He was. In fact, he was critical of the way Trump negotiated and thought it was it was always was a zero sum game. And he actually was critical of the way Trump negotiated and thought it wasn't a way a leader should negotiate.

And, you know. He was, I guess he was so desperate to stay in the spotlight, so desperate to stay relevant that he ran to him anyway. And now Donald Trump is it looks like Donald Trump has bankrupted him and destroyed a good bit of his life. The whole thing is tragic. And again, if we didn't laugh, we'd be crying at the, all the different consequences

of this behavior.