Morning Joe - Morning Joe 1/10/25

Episode Date: January 10, 2025

At least 10 dead in L.A. wildfires as high winds complicate firefighting efforts

Came back this morning and gone. Just absolute. It's the further you go up it's just an absolute wasteland. It's just stunned, shocked, speechless. So these items weren't in the apartment but they were in the parking area. What were you able to grab from the apartment if anything? We weren't able to grab anything. Everything's burnt to the ground. This is the only thing we could manage to find in salvage. I've never seen nothing like this before, like from the smell to even how the sun is red. It's the worst thing I've seen. Looked like a bomb just went off over here. Like that's the only way I could describe it. More harrowing stories from survivors of the wildfires

in Southern California. We're going to bring you a live report from one of the hardest hit areas, as well as the latest forecast straight ahead, right here on Morning Joe. Good morning and welcome to Morning Joe. It's Friday, January 10th. Along with Joe, Willie, and me, we have the co-host of our fourth hour, Jonathan

Lemire, Pulitzer Prize-winning columnist and associate editor of the Washington Post. Eugene Robinson is with us, writer-at-large for the New York Times. Elizabeth B. Miller is with us, as well as congressional investigations reporter for the Washington Post, Jackie Alamany, and staff writer for the Atlantic. Very easy for you to say. For Elemany. So, I want to- Happy Friday everybody.

Happy Friday. Happy Friday. What a week. If we can even say that with just the hellscape in Los Angeles. It was incredible. You know, because of the proximity of where I lived in Pensacola, Florida, I was over in Louisiana and Mississippi every day

at for Katrina and I've got to say There are a lot of parallels aren't there aren't there they're really and we don't know we don't know the Exact causes for the complete failure of government to be able to protect these homes I don't think we can say it's a smelt alone. We don't know what it is. But I do think it's going to be like Hurricane Katrina. I mean, there's the infrastructure has been slashed. You can't just say it's Karen Bass and you can't just say it's Gavin Newsom. This has been a trend for 30 years. Infrastructure has been slashed across America.

And you do have climate change, so you have wildfires sweeping into urban areas. They're kind of like fighting the last war. But I just, the longer we get into this, the more I think about how New Orleans didn't invest in their levy system, how they didn't invest in critical infrastructure and people died because of it. And it's just, it's hard to hear people say, in one of the richest cities in the world, that, oh, we just, we don't have enough water to protect people's homes. Yeah, well, you know, the system is designed to fight a big fire. It's just not designed to fight what happened, which is not entirely, you know, un-expectable, right, because of climate change and because of the way the weather

patterns have gone the last couple of years. But you fight a fire that huge from the air. You've got to get your your choppers and your planes up dropping water on something that big and they couldn't get the planes up because of the high winds. And so, you know, should there be a more robust infrastructure to this? Should there have been more than three million gallon tanks up on Pacific Palisades, which is what there was, and they were full.

And yet that was not nearly enough. Well, the question really answers itself. They should have had more. And Elizabeth, there are parallels also with what's happening in Los Angeles right now, where you have people moving into areas where wildfires spread, so it's not like urban fires. And so as homes, communities, buildings move into these areas that are going to have historically been swept by wildfires, it reminds me of what's happening in Florida with hurricanes, where insurance companies are just starting to say, we can't insure your homes anymore

because they're in flood zones. It does seem like... Climate change has really become a huge factor in all of this. I mean, it's been happening in other parts of the world. We've been doing stories for years about islands disappearing, you know, and I remember editing a story years ago also about Miami being underwater, even at low tide, and it's just become now much more of a catastrophe and much more of a catastrophe in the United States.

I mean, I also think in Los Angeles, it's not quite a failure of imagination, but I don't think anyone ever imagined there'd be these kind of wildfires in such an urban area. It was always in the far reaches of California, not in Pacific Palisades, not in the Hollywood Hills. It was just the thinking was these are— Forest fires. Yeah, forest fires.

Yeah, we're imagining a forest fire in Pacific Palisades. Well, and really, that's, again, it's a couple of things happening. You've got urban sprawl where people are moving neighborhoods out to places where they never were before. And so, areas where you have more wildfires and urban fires, and then you have climate change, and you have the dry weather. And with all of that, you have a community, I guess,

of municipality that did not keep up with the realities of those dramatic radical changes. And just like the Ninth Ward in New Orleans, this should be a wake-up call. Very late, but a wake-up call not only to Los Angeles and to California, but to politicians, local, state, politicians across America, that you have to fight the new battle with urban sprawl, with climate change, with people moving into flood zones, with people moving into zones where there are wildfires, something is going to give. It happened in Katrina, it's happened here.

Yeah, there's a great piece this morning in the LA Times, a lengthy piece that explains how the water systems are set up in Los Angeles County, where they're able to deliver water, where they're not, what they're designed to do, which is to fight a small house fire in one residential area. You can knock that down very quickly, but even the firefighters themselves and the officials who run the water system say there's no water system. We could have done much better, of course, and hope to do better in the future. There's no water system that could have controlled this because of the way the fire was spreading with these winds which is to

say it's not just the Santa Ana wind that was driving it in a predictable direction but these wind gusts, hurricane wind gusts blowing in different directions from moment to moment and shooting these embers sometimes miles ahead of the fire and starting another fire in a direction they couldn't have predicted. So it is truly truly the worst-case scenario, truly apocalyptic. A lot of questions will be asked about what can be done better next time, but for now these wind gusts we're gonna talk to Angie Lastman in just a second. These wind gusts are coming back today so it's gonna be a difficult day fighting these fires that

continue to devastate Los Angeles County. As of this morning, at least 10 people have died. Officials think that number will go up as they get around these neighborhoods. 180,000 people now have been forced to evacuate as flames have burned over 30,000 acres. That's about twice the size of Manhattan. Five major fires have broken out this week, with two of the most severe at just six and zero percent contained respectively as we sit here now on Friday. The newest fire, Kenneth, began last night near Calabasas though the Ventura County Fire Department says it's been able to stop the forward

progress at least of that fire. While winds eased a bit yesterday they are as I said expected to intensify and last through today, which, of course, only helps to spread these fires further. In total, the wildfires are expected to be the costliest in U.S. history with losses estimated around 50 billion dollars. That's according to JPMorgan. Join us now live from Altadena, California, NBC News correspondent Dana Griffin.

Dana, good morning to you today. What are you seeing since we saw you about 24 hours ago? Yeah, Willie, good morning to you. We are seeing a much noticeably different law enforcement presence here. We are noticing these black and white patrol vehicles. They've got their red and blue lights flashing. We are noticing this at almost every corner in the evacuation zone. As we kind of pivot here, you can see the lights here. This was not the scene, as you mentioned yesterday morning, because they kind of had a more open area.

We saw several people able to walk into the evacuation zone, and that's why they decided to bring in the California National Guard. that's why they decided to bring in the California National Guard. You can see we've got one Hummer right here and there's also a guardsman standing watch. There are actually a few more inside this vehicle here. They've deployed these resources because there have been several people arrested already

who have gotten into that evacuation zone. Several people have been arrested for looting. That's why there is now a curfew, in effect from 6 p.m. to 6 a.m. And they wanna make it clear, only first responders, media are allowed in this area. They wanna keep people out to try to protect the properties that are still standing,

and so that they can focus the resources on the firefighting effort. You mentioned the new fire that broke out last night. Luckily, some progress there here in Alta Dena. Some 13,000 plus acres have burned. We know that there are 10 fatality reports that the medical examiner is now going to have to work through. And it's a challenge because the medical examiner hasn't even been able to go to some of those locations because of the safety

concerns and the firefighting efforts. So some of those remains are exactly where they are at this point. So it's been an emotional week for several people returning home. And people still cannot wrap their heads around what has happened to this community here in Altadena where the Eaton fire burned and also in the Palisades area. their heads around what has happened to this community here in in in Alta Dena where the Eaton fire burn and also in the Palisades area. And so again you can see crews they're getting out of their vehicles they're being more diligent checking licenses and making sure that people who are entering this area exact are the people that need to be here and we are noticing like I mentioned just a

huge huge law enforcement presence. Willie? Dana, what are you hearing about the firefighting efforts? I mean, it's pretty extraordinary to be here on Friday morning now, all these days later, saying one of the fires is 0% contained, one of them is 5% contained. We understand how difficult this effort is, how unpredictable the fires are, how the winds are coming back. But does Cal Fire, do the firefighters there feel like at some point they'll begin to get

their arms around these flames? Absolutely, I think they feel that they are making some forward progress. I know when you hear those numbers, 0%, 6%, people think that that's a really low number, but when you start to get containment numbers, it's actually a really low number. But when you start to get containment numbers, it's actually a really good sign because it's not reflective of the level of flames

or the out of control-ness of those flames. It means the line that they have around the fire so that it can essentially burn itself out. So when we start to see the containment numbers and the acreage not move as much, that's the indication that we have that. Okay. They are making forward progress. We do still have the threat of the Santa Ana winds where we are. We're not experiencing gusts that we felt 48 hours prior. So that is also going to be

some relief for the firefighting efforts. But I also got to mention that there has been some things that have hurt their effort, like the drone that crashed into a firefighting efforts, but I also got to mention that there has been some Some things that have hurt their effort like the drone that crashed into a firefighting aircraft that drone that aircraft now cannot go up So they're telling people to not put drones up in these in these areas, really All right, then we see is Danny Griffin live from Alta, Dena, California Where if you look at some of those drone pictures, it's just been wiped out all that's left in the footprint of these homes Are chimneys in many cases. Let's go over to meteorologist Angie Lassman. Angie, good morning. So let's talk again about those winds in Southern California. What are you looking at today? Yeah, good morning Willie. We saw some improvements

yesterday with the winds, of course, as expected. And then as we went into the overnight hours, we saw those ramp up again. And that's kind of what we're gonna see set the stage for what firefighters are dealing with across that region for the first half of today. This is going to be a situation in flux with these winds because we've got multiple kinds of changes when it comes to the Santa Ana wins as we move forward even well into next week so it's no surprise that we've still got all the ingredients there to

prompt these red flag warnings to stay up this is going to be at least through tonight. I wouldn't be surprised if they last into tomorrow today the Santa Ana winds gusting about 60 miles per hour we also as, saw a slight uptick in our humidity levels, nothing too impressive, but of course, even a couple of percentage points are gonna help with regards to, again, the firefighting efforts there.

We've got five to 15% humidity levels, so some minor improvements. Now, take a look at where these five fires are when it comes to exactly what we're watching with wind speeds. At this hour 70 mile per hour wind speeds close to the Lydia fire. This is going to be kind of what we see up in the hills in the mountains 50 plus mile per hour wind speeds at least gusts across that region through at least the first half of today. Closer to the coast 20, 30, even 40 mile per hour winds are possible closer to Calabasas but look what happens as we go forward in time to the later parts of today we see the

subside a little bit we're not looking at a whole lot of folks in double digits at this point this is 6PM tonight Pacific time so those strongest winds will decrease by the second half of the day but unfortunately we've got another couple around the Santa Ana winds that we're going to see take shape here as we get into next week And here's why we've got this high pressure that's been sitting over basically the Great Basin for a couple of days now This is one of the things that has influenced those Santa Ana winds

This is gonna kick out but look what happens as we get into tonight and tomorrow We see this next high pressure high pressure system work into the Pacific Northwest And then it essentially sets up right in that same place as we get into early next week. So this means again, we'll have some weakening of those winds as we get through the weekend and there will be periods, windows of the weaker conditions for firefighters. But as we get into next week, those conditions are still going to ramp up and unfortunately no rain in the forecast for folks here. I want to say though, this is kind of a rare event for us to see these kinds of setups

in the upper levels of the atmosphere for this time period. This is more common in fall which is why the wildfire season across parts of Southern California in the fall and really the entire state of California ramps up during that time frame of the year versus this time frame of the year. This is more of the kind of the wet season with the winter weather but today Willie we still have some areas under that critical, so we'll be keeping a close eye on that through the entirety of today and even into the weekend and next week. All right. We'll hope those firefighters at least get a little help of breaking the winds at some point. They can get some water on these flames.

Angie Lassman, thanks so much. Mika? All right. Adding to the winds, two other issues really hampering the efforts to contain these fires, some at 0% still, power and water. So let's break down both of those. One of the utilities delivering electricity to the areas of Los Angeles ravaged by the wildfires has not implemented a safety protocol intended to prevent its equipment from igniting

blazes. This is according to The Wall Street Journal. The Los Angeles Department of Water and Power has not developed a plan to proactively shut off parts of its system during windstorms to reduce the risk of sparks from its power lines. Regulatory filings show this. Other California utilities do so periodically when fire risk is high. The Journal continues.

As dangerous winds threaten to buffet Los Angeles, the Los Angeles Department of Water and Power System remained energized until the windstorm caused significant damage and knocked out power for tens of thousands of customers. The paper notes that the causes of the wildfires remain under investigation, including whether power lines played any role. A spokesman for the department told the Journal it has other safety measures in place. Power lines in California have ignited some of the nation's most deadly and destructive fires.

Then there's water. Meanwhile, the water systems the firefighters rely upon are antiquated and unreliable. The New York Times reporting this morning that officials say storage tanks that hold water for high elevation areas and the pumping systems that feed them cannot keep pace with the demand. That was in part because those who designed the system did not account for the stunning speeds at which multiple fires would race through the Los Angeles area this week. We are looking at a situation that is just completely not part of any domestic water system design said Marty Adams a

former general manager and chief engineer at the Los Angeles Department of Water and Power which is responsible for delivering water to nearly 4 million residents of Los Angeles. If this is going to be a norm, there's going to have to be some new thinking about how systems are designed," he said. Los Angeles City Councilmember Tracy Park tells The Times, there are environmental catastrophes waiting to happen everywhere with our water mains, she said, adding that some were a century old.

And again, I mean, Frank, people are saying, well, climate change is causing catastrophes, the likes of which we've never seen. Okay, yes, part of that is true. The other part of it is that 50 years ago, let's just take the state of Florida. A lot of people were not building in the flood zones that they're building right now. They weren't building homes on top of the Gulf of America or the, what do we call the

Atlantic Ocean now? The, you know, Trump pod. But people weren't building where they're in flood zones and they are now. And here's a great quote from the Times, this Greg Pierce talking about it saying the same thing these water systems weren't designed for urban fires, or were designed for urban fires not fast moving fires. He goes on to say, a more fundamental question is whether it's a good idea to rebuild neighborhoods

adjacent to wild lands. An issue that has been broadly debated across the West is climate change increases the frequency and intensity of fires on what is known as the wild land urban interface. Again, the same debate we had after Katrina about Ward 9. Yeah. Why are you building in an area that is under sea level? And the same question we're having in Florida where insurance companies are going, no, Moss, we're out of here.

Right. We're not going to insure your homes anymore you've gone straight to the what the economist called the moral hazard problem and well that's what I was trying to do I saw it moving in your head and when you walked on the set this morning I said Joe isn't a moral hazard move but really you have you have a city like boy that takes me back to 2000 I know you have you have it you have a city like... Boy, that takes me back to 2008. Okay. You have a city like Los Angeles that is fundamentally unaffordable to a large part of its population. It has a housing crisis. That's why it also has, part of the reason why it has the prevalence of somebody homeless there.

That's right. And so you have, it just expands outward. It's always expanded outward. That's kind of the nature of a place like Los Angeles. And into wild lands. Into wild lands. And when people buy property there, they're not thinking, I'm about to get incinerated. They're thinking, I've found a place where I can actually have a backyard and I can actually afford to live there based on. And so I think just as we think about

this more globally, as you're going with it, we've invested so much in climate prevention, the prevention of climate change. But we've arrived at a place where we're in a new chapter in the history of this problem, which is that we also need to invest significantly in mitigation. And it can't just be on local and state governments to deal with this because when the crises smack these places, they're of such a scale that it taxes their ability to think, it taxes their ability to spend sufficiently, it taxes clearly the actual manpower and resources that they have.

They're dealing with the immediate problem. Yeah. Right. And you know, it's very interesting, Jackie, that a lot of people are saying, well, Republicans, Donald Trump, they've always trashed California. They're not going to step in now. Not to be crass and talk about politics, but since that's going to determine how much support California gets, we need to talk about politics. And the fact is, changes in California's voting patterns over the last two to four years are in large part why

Republicans control the House of Representatives. So I'm not so sure they can have a hands-off approach to California. You look at the gains Republicans made in California and New York, that changes the outlook. It's not forward to New York City drop dead. I suspect you're going to have Republicans saying, we need to go in and help. I think that you're absolutely right. And, you know, right now, it's not just the Elon Musk and Donald Trumps of the world that

are criticizing the emergency preparedness or lack thereof in the city. And especially the Palisades is sort of ripe for this kind of conversation because the former mayoral candidate who lost to Karen Bass is one of the most prominent property developers in the area. Carusoville has basically been torched to the ground where Caruso's luxury development in Palisades

Village, an area that really is so densely populated, it's unfathomable the damage that's happened right now. But you're seeing Hollywood stars, activists, Pod Save America hosts, the likes, asking California and Los Angeles and specifically one of the most progressive cities in the country to really rethink a lot of the policies that they've implemented and a lot of the dysfunction that people have been criticizing with regards to homelessness and other less urgent situations and to try to course correct. But I do think that at the end of the day this is a real lesson in overdevelopment in places that should not be overdeveloped.

And then the question is what to do about that. And moving forward, Mayor Karen Bass was in our news conference late yesterday talking a lot about immediately rebuilding Jonathan Lemire, cutting through red tape and getting people back in their homes. Talk about the federal response and then we'll also talk about the reality of that. Yeah it's going to be first of all an arduous lengthy and very expensive process to rebuild these neighborhoods some iconic and deeply affluent neighborhoods of Los Angeles. The President Biden said yesterday,

the federal government's certainly gonna do their part in stepping up. He's saying that the federal government will have a 100%. They will pick up the entire cost, 100% disaster response coverage over the next 180 days, which is an increase from the current 75%. That's what's normally allotted for a response like this. And even more than what Governor Newsom requested.

He requested 90% of federal support. President Biden says no, we'll do all 100%. But he's also saying that Congress is likely gonna need to step up. He's gonna make an appeal for a supplemental and that's where things get tricky. Republicans now, of course, have both the House and the Senate, they are about to have the White House

in 10 days time. Donald Trump's inauguration exactly 10 days from today. President Biden had been in Southern California for a few days as these fires ignited. He was there on unrelated events, events that he had to cancel. He canceled what was going to be his last foreign trip. He was supposed to be in Rome today meeting with the pope, no longer is, so he can maintain the federal response. Also Vice President Harrisris who's home there in the brentwood area of los angeles very close To some of these fires

She also canceled what was supposed to be her last foreign trip She had a couple of stops to make in asia and then europe that likely now won't happen either because she's also Wants to be part of the federal response here one one that hits very close to home and to her heart as she said yesterday. So right now the federal government is stepping up. This is a long way to go before these fires are even contained. Then the rebuilding begins and we'll see what happens as the new administration enters. President-elect Trump continuing his feud with Gavin Newsom just yesterday.

Oh yeah, we'll continue. We'll have a lot more on this. Still ahead on Morning Joe, just a few hours from now, Donald Trump will be sentenced in his criminal money case after the Supreme Court refused to delay this morning's hearing. Our next guest will be heading to Manhattan Criminal Court for that. We'll have a preview. Next, we're back you 30 seconds. -♪ You're lucky there's a funeral, else that would have been a sack tap. People are talking about the greeting George W. Bush gave Barack Obama. Check this out.

-"Live coverage of the state funeral of former President Jimmy Carter." There you go. Yeah. What's up, chief? It's funny greeting someone at a state funeral like he's your bro who just finished a keg stand at a frat house.

Your turn, bro. Oh, my God. You know, there were a lot of reactions. People were talking about, obviously, they're talking about President Obama and President Trump talking beforehand. And, of course, we're the Bill O'Reilly lip readers and body language experts when you need them. Didn't he used to do that?

No, you can't tell what was really going on there. Okay, you can't. Because things kind of happened back, you know, before they came out. Well, yeah, I mean, they were in a holding room beforehand, and we'll find out like three or four years from now. But the Bush thing, how you doing? How's it going?

That was definitely, yeah, what it was. Mika, very moving service yesterday. It was incredible. And I must say, what an extraordinary… Illegitimate. What an extraordinary life. What an extraordinary faith. And what an extraordinary man.

And I feel the funeral, it was one of those events that was 100 percent authentic. Everything that was said in there was 100% true and not exaggerated at all. This was who he was. I mean, Andrew Young. Oh my God. And Joe Biden's eulogy was unbelievably beautiful and started off with a little bit of an edge there, I thought, to the future. And it was sad. Joe and I sat with a lot of folks who actually worked with my dad and it was a little bit of a reunion in a way and very poignant. When you think of how Carter left Washington. I know. The way he left, he sort of skulked out of town. Reagan was supreme. He was, you know, a failed president.

They had waited to release the hostages until after Reagan took the oath of office. And for years, for decades, you know, he was seen as this failed president. And it's completely, it's been a total reassessment. But I was just thinking yesterday, watching in that grand space, that huge, beautiful space, and all of, all the presidents came to pay homage to him. It's a very different arrival back in Washington. Well, this was a man who felt and was an outsider and operated that way, but also had a very simple,

moral approach, simple in a good way, to his governing. And it is interesting. This is the kind of thing where history, it takes time to really look back on what a certain amount of time, what a presidency meant to the world. And in this case, wow, did the narrative turn when you look back on this presidency and really pour through the details of it. It reminds me so much of Harry Truman. You look at Harry Truman left, he sulked out of town, went back to independence with maybe a 23% approval rating. Jimmy Carter left much the

same way going back to Plains, Georgia. Then you go back and you look at what Truman did in 47, 48. He reframed the entire world, the post-war world. You look what Jimmy Carter did in 1979, the hostage crisis, of course, so horrific, but you look what he did, Camp David accords what he did with normalization. China, you look at what he did on human rights. When the Soviet Union fell, the Russians, they did not go. Reagan brought down the wall. They blamed two people, Jimmy Carter and the guy

who was her dad, but they knew it was Carter and it was human rights, which I remember as a young kid, Republicans mocking Jimmy Carter for being too idealistic on human rights, but it's the Soviets who saw that as that and him ramping up these defense systems that Reagan carried through in the 1980s and it was of course a can you would continuous line but but Jimmy Carter certainly yeah he started that build up and and and and applying those pressures on the system that ultimately cracked because it was so brittle.

But really, the reassessment of Carter's presidency has taken place over years, and now it's a good thing that people appreciate what he did. I was thinking yesterday, I was talking to Andrew Mitchell, I feel like the... So Israel and Egypt have been at peace now longer than they were at war.

Maybe from the founding of Israel to the Camp David Accords is not as long as from the Camp David Accords to now. And I mean, so his accomplishment, that accomplishment is so enduring that it's remarkable. Yeah, yeah. It's strong enough to withstand all the pressures

put on it by October 7th in its aftermath. Exactly. Exactly. You know, it's interesting. We talk about the morality of Jimmy Carter, just like people talk about the morality of Abraham Lincoln. Yes. Lincoln is a god. Lincoln, you know, Jesus touched Lincoln to be this saint among men and women.

And yet you read what Abraham Lincoln said from the first day he got in the Illinois legislature in 1834, to, I mean, even right before emancipation. There's some shocking things that Lincoln said, but it was part of a process that he knew he had to get through to ride the wave. And the thing I loved about what Andrew Young said yesterday and what I've also heard about Jimmy Carter is, you know, Curtis Wilkie, long ago after Carter won

the Iowa primary, Curtis wrote an article saying basically nobody in Georgia likes this new guy Jimmy Carter. People on the right thinks he's too liberal, people in the in the civil rights community thinks he's too conservative in a sellout, and you read that you go, okay, that's what people were saying about Lincoln. and so I love the part where Andrew Young said this man that was practically a Saint yeah, he said yeah there so basically said the most racist sheriff in the entire South who Martin

Luther King said was he was the most hateful human being he had ever met, came from Jimmy Carter's home county. And Andrew Young said the first time he met Jimmy Carter, he said, you know this sheriff? And Jimmy Carter said, one of my best friends. And Andrew Young said he wanted to hear anything but that. What is this? But we're all talking about the great moral message of Jimmy Carter.

There's also that message too of tacking left and right and doing what you can do to move forward. And it wasn't always black and white for Jimmy Carter. But he created the new South. Right. Jimmy Carter did. Right. Which is strange because you're saying that there's this tension between being somebody who just exudes virtue from every poor and then being a politician who has to

navigate changing times. And I mean, really, isn't that what public life is about? And that one of the things that it's just so hard not to reflect on this at this moment is that given all the temptations of power, given all of the madness that ideology can lead people, that public life squeezes out good people. And that to have careers that embody virtue even within this framework that you're just describing,

which requires moral evolution. All right. We'll have more looking at this incredible state funeral ahead. But Willie now has more news this morning. Yeah. In just a few hours, President-elect Donald Trump will be sentenced in his criminal hush money case after the Supreme Court denied his request to block the proceeding. The High Court issued its five to four decision last night noting the burden that sentencing imposes on Trump is quote relatively insubstantial

because he will not receive prison time. Trump's legal team argued the president-elect should be immune from criminal proceedings because of the Supreme Court's ruling last year on presidential immunity. Trump responded to the Supreme Court decision last night. They acknowledged what the judge said about no penalty and there is no penalty, but we're going to appeal anyway just psychologically because frankly it's a disgrace. So I read it and I thought it was a fair decision actually. So I'll do my little thing tomorrow. And this is long way from finished.

And I respect the court's opinion. It was a, I think it was actually a very good opinion for us because you saw what they said. But they invited the appeal and the appeal is on the bigger issue. So we'll see how it all works out. The sentencing is now set to take place at 930 this morning in New York City with Trump expected to appear virtually. Let's bring in former litigator and MSNBC legal correspondent Lisa Rubin, who of course will be at the courthouse in lower Manhattan this morning.

Good to see you Lisa. So are you surprised at all by the Supreme Court ruling 5-4? Does this feel right? Yes and no. I am not surprised because I think it was the right application of the presidential immunity decision. On the other hand, I am surprised

because after that presidential immunity decision, there are many legal observers who thought, this is a group of people who will do anything to help this guy. And the fact that Donald Trump had a phone call a couple of days ago with Samuel Alito, allegedly about Will Levy, who was chief of staff to Bill Barr and now wants, apparently, a lower profile appointment in this next Trump administration, that didn't ring true to me. And so particularly after that, I think many of us were cynical about what the outcome was going to be.

So no prison time today. Donald Trump will appear virtually. He will not be here in Manhattan. So what should we expect in the courthouse today? So we should expect a presentation from the prosecution about why it was important to them to get to this place, to get to a place of sentencing, particularly when they backed off

of any recommendation of jail time here. Then the defense will have an opportunity to speak, and we should expect really sharp ever Escalating language as we've seen in their briefs from Todd Blanch Who is the lead lawyer for former and future president Trump and will be the number two at the Department of Justice? Then the former president and future president will have an opportunity to speak himself and Willie Here's where things get really interesting because Trump won't be in the courtroom. And therefore, if he starts to say things that aren't, for example, permitted by the very narrow gag order

that's still in place in this case, Rashad can't take action, for example, to remove him from the courtroom or to have that kind of confrontation with him in person. What will the solution be if Trump continues to pontificate or refuses to sit down and sort of have his time? If he continues to talk and talk and talk and talk, it'll be really interesting to see the fireworks that might occur between him and Judge Mershon. And then finally, Judge Mershon has an opportunity to explain his sentence. What were the factors that went into this decision by him to give an unconditional discharge?

He sort of nodded to it last week in his decision refusing to vacate the verdict or the indictment, but this will be his opportunity to address the convicted defendant and tell him why it was that he decided an unconditional discharge was necessary and appropriate here. So Lisa, we know there will be minimal penalties, there will be no prison time, but this does enshrine once and for all that Donald Trump will take office as a convicted felon. Talk to us also about why it just matters. Why do you think that, do you think the judge is trying to send a signal here that the process works, that the will, the decision of a jury must be respected, that it's almost like a vote of confidence for

the legal system, despite what the Supreme Court may have made and may not have said in their other decisions. Absolutely, and I think that was the imperative for the district attorney's office, too, throughout their briefs and their arguments. Alvin Bragg had a press conference yesterday in which he spoke about this, too.

The reason to have this sentencing at all is for two reasons. One, because you want Donald Trump to have that label attached to him. And then two, for the history books, you want to record that there was some accountability, even if that accountability only comes in the form of process. You want to honor the verdict of those 12 people who sat there for nearly seven weeks, hearing the evidence in this case, and remind the public that jury service is not for naught. At least until

an appeals court says this conviction cannot stand, Judge Mershon is determined to honor that verdict. So Lisa, separate topic here. U.S. District Judge in Florida, Aileen Cannon, blocked the release of the special counsel's report. But yesterday, a federal appeals court ruled the Justice Department can in fact release that report about President Donald Trump and the election interference and the documents case as well. So is this report going to see the light of the day?

It is. So at the very worst, Merrick Garland has to wait three more days. That's because Judge Cannon's original order said that her stay would essentially expire three days after the Court of Appeals had its say. And then the Court of Appeals last night said something else. They said, look, if you don't like that, if you don't like the fact that we're sort of leaving in place her order for another three days, you can pose a direct appeal of that order if you want to do something sooner.

And sure enough, we've seen that notice of appeal filed by the Justice Department. So one way or another, by Sunday, Merrick Garland has the right to do that unless of course Donald Trump goes to the Supreme Court in the interim. So I think this story is far from over Willie. I think ultimately the report will be released but we still got a few days to go and some innings left to play. Briefly what's in the report? What will the public know if it is made public? I think we should compare this to the Mueller report right and so at the very beginning we didn't see everything there was a lot blacked out of that report and I expect the same I think we should compare this to the Mueller report, right? And so at the very beginning, we didn't see everything.

There was a lot blacked out of that report. And I expect the same might be the case here too. But what we should expect to see is the evidence that backs up all of the allegations that were in the indictment and perhaps beyond that, right? Because an indictment is just sort of the skimming of the surface about what the government knows and intends to prove in their case. At some point we will get to see what the government learned in its investigation. May not be fully in a couple of days but it will be soon. Yeah we could know very soon. Alright MSNBC

legal correspondent Lisa Rubin. Lisa thanks so much as always good to see you. Joe? Thank you so much Willie. You know Gene it's interesting we were talking about it earlier this week that you know, Gene, it's interesting, we were talking about it earlier this week, that the immunity ruling has been oversimplified. This 80, 90 page document, which actually had basically three different silos of privilege. So, you know, over here, constitutionally, pretty much absolute privilege. So, you know, over here constitutionally, pretty much absolute privilege. And then over here for acts that aren't official. Right. Right. No privilege. No privilege. Right. And in the middle, official acts, a presumption. A presumption. But a presumption that the

state can very easily overcome. So it's oversimplified. I think it's very telling that Amy Coney Barrett, in the immunity hearing, I mean in the immunity case, she concurred but distanced herself from Clarence Thomas and the court in some areas. And it was Amy Coney Barrett yesterday who ruled five-four on one. And I get to say the second thing that people should be looking at that think that every federal judge is going to lay down over the next four years and not do their job is it wasn't any circuit court yesterday that ruled. It was the 11th Circuit, which is the most conservative, I would say the most conservative circuit court.

So I think Madison lives. There will be checks and balances over the next four years. We can catastrophize and bad things will happen. But I'm not so sure that federal courts are ready to just roll over. Yeah, we have reason to hope. We have reason to hope and to expect, I think, that the judiciary, the court system, as it did during Trump Term 1, will stand up and will interpret and execute the laws as the laws are and not as Donald Trump would have them be.

So we do have reason, you know, but let's, you know, come out of the cocoon, it might be OK. And let me just say this, let me just say this, because who my wife is— Oh, come on. We have reason to not catastrophize about everything. Well, I like to catastrophize. I know you do. I'm a catastrophizer.

Elizabeth, she really is Elizabeth. So, I'll tell you. I wanted to say that one of the appell in this case said that she asked Todd Blanch, one of the president's defense lawyers, who is going to be senior official to the Department of Justice, was there any support for the notion that a presidential immunity extends to president's elect? And Todd Blanch said, there has never been a case like this before. So they were on thin ice here, trying to say that this presidential immunity ruling extends

to a president-elect who was doing—and this was not an official act. He was not even president. He was covering up payments to a— Yeah, we got it. And what's so much interesting, though, is this really was a first of its kind case. And the immunity case, Frank, and the decision, they said, this is the first time we've ever had to address this issue. And so I think yesterday, again, showed that for those who think that the immunity ruling

is just the court saying, we surrender, there are no checks and balances, they should look at it. And it is fascinating, Donald Trump saying it's a disgrace what happened to him, but saying two or three times, I respect the court, I respect their decision, I will say that is far different than what he said about the court in his first term. I mean, I think it goes back to what you were discussing with Gene, which is that institutions will be tested. They're going to be tested again.

And our hope is that institutions remain strong. I think Trump himself is not totally sure how strong institutions will be in the face of all the ways in which he will push them. And what he was saying yesterday was essentially, you know, respecting that there is a likelihood that the Supreme Court will intervene to stop him when he goes to the furthest limits. We shall see. The Washington Post Jackie Alamini, staff writer at the Atlantic, Frank Foer, and New York Times writer-at-large Elizabeth B. Miller. Thank you all very much for being on this morning. And coming up, we're going to take a quick break from the news and switch to sports, Pablo Tori and

Paul Feinbaum. Well, join us to break down the college football and NFL playoffs. Morning Joe is coming right back. During Carter's funeral, President-elect Trump chatted with former President Barack Obama. Of course, we don't know what they discussed, but the interaction seemed friendly with both presidents talking and occasionally smiling.

Someone's trying to make Elon jealous. Mark, as long as 49. Notre Dame coming up with a crucial interception with just 33 seconds left to play in a tied game against Penn State a throw that Drew Aller would love to have back because it sets up the Irish for a quick 19-yard drive capped by game-winning field goal from 41 yards out the kickers name is Jeter guys named you just come

up big in the top. That's right. Final score 27-24. Notre Dame advances to the title game. They'll face the winner of the other semifinal tonight in Texas, where the Longhorns effectively playing a home game hosting Ohio State. Let's bring in the host of Pablo Torre finds out at Metal Arc Media, MSNBC contributor Pablo Torre and ESPN commentator Paul Feinbaum. Guys good morning, good to see you both. Paul I got to start with you on college football.

We're SEC guys, it's hard to watch these grinded out Midwest teams play but Notre Dame, they did just enough to win last night. You think they got a shot to win the whole thing? I'm not that optimistic, Willie, because as you watch their games, I mean, every game is a slog. And they're incredibly well coached by Marcus Freeman. But I think especially with Ohio State, which most people think it will be, it just seems like they're on a different platform. And by the way, speaking of the SEC to you and Joe, it could have been a lot worse this morning.

If Penn State had won, we had the possibility of an all Big Ten national championship, and that would have made the three of us head for the hills. Boy, you know things are bad when a reporter from Alabama football is celebrating a Notre Dame win. It's as if he doesn't remember 1977. I mean, come on, which by the way, might be a rematch for those who remember when Notre Dame jumped from five to one by beating Texas. We may have a rematch there. Hey, Pablo, serious question here, because I do think that the conference that has won

like 20 out of the last 25 national championships is probably the best conference. Who's counting? Yeah. But who's counting? You know, you and I talked last year about how there is, I think we were talking about a pretty mediocre NFL season. Yeah. And I just want to know, is it just me as an SEC fan or when I watched this game last night

and then serious. It looked like it was watching high school football just this not a second hold on a second hold on just logging up the middle quarterbacks getting the ball and putting their head down and running up the middle. I can tell you man and SEC football that stuff just get used to happen I know what terrible this year but but do you think where this a mediocre year or is this the future.

So a couple things I'm glad you didn't reference specifically not Lee, New Jersey. Yeah, I was waiting for that the drinking game. I didn't get that one. But was this war of attrition yes was Notre Dame's injury situation that came into this game? Losing about a half dozen starters, which is crazy. The quarterback got hurt. The best player, the running back Jeremiah Love got hurt in the game, played hurt. So yes, this was a survival as much as it was a showcase. But I just want you

guys to remember, maybe you should reconsider relocating to those hills. Because Ryan Kelly was the coach of Notre Dame. 2022, he says, I need the resources to be for a national title. He goes to LSU, affects the worst fake southern accent I've ever heard. And now he's watching Notre Dame, not three years later, make it to the very promised like so here's my question for

both Pablo and well everybody around the set because Willie and and the mere follow this ball very closely to when curious is I have we have we just seen a fundamental shift that's going to stay with us where you have the slogging teams that just sort of just it's a return to like 1974 football and I'm wondering is this the new normal or is this just a transition year because of an I L. I love I love I love I love what you're trying to do here. I really do. You just can't answer the question and you don't have to.

Willie, what do you think? No, I think that's these teams. I mean, Paul, the college football is spread them out and throw the ball. We have to remember Notre Dame did beat Georgia of the SEC. Thank you. Granted without their quarterback. Let's stipulate that without Carson back playing that game. But they did beat Georgia.

They took care of him not easily but pretty comfortably. So Paul, you can talk about where the game is right now, where the SEC is, but also let's look forward to tonight's game. Still getting used to calling Texas an SEC team, but they are. What do you expect to see tonight? As I said, Texas effectively playing a home game there in Arlington against Ohio State. Yeah and it's right outside my window Jerry's world where we

have about five inches of snow here in Dallas which is quite a major accomplishment. I expect Ohio State to win this game Willie because they have the best player in college football Jeremiah Smith who is a freshman.

He has to wait two more years to go into the draft. He would be the number one player taken. That's how good he is. And nobody can cover him except Ryan Day and Chip Kelly, the head coach and the offensive coordinator, forgot to throw to him in the Michigan game. I think he got two targets in the second half.

But Texas is, as crazy as it sounds here in Dallas, is representing the SEC a year ago at this very moment. They were representing the Big 12 in the national semifinals. But I want to go back to what Pablo said a minute ago. And I was in New Orleans last week with all the Notre Dame fans. They are taking as much pride as maybe winning a national championship for the first time since Lou Holtz in 88, as much pride as the shot in Florida with Brian Kelly because I mean,

they hate Brian Kelly and he is the one who said I want to win a national championship at LSU. And he lost four games this year. I mean, it wasn't like he was that close. So I think that's the dual story that's going on next week. As far as tonight Texas is very good but I don't believe they're quite an Ohio State League. No no. So let's turn now Pablo to the NFL. Also the playoffs start this weekend. Couple glamour matchups Steelers Ravens great rivalry there the Steelers really limping into the

playoffs Packers Eagles another real fun one of the Packers again sort of coming in less than 100 percent. We also should note that the Monday night game Vikings Rams has been moved was going to be a Los Angeles home game but because of those fires. Yes. Moving to Arizona with a play that a neutral field. What matchup or two are you looking forward to the most. Let's talk about that Rams game because the Vikings is interesting.

They had two losses this season the Vikings did. Two teams in particular they struggled with. It was the Lions who they just lost to to close out the season in this heralded regular season matchup and then the next week in the regular season they lost to the Rams. And so here is this matchup again with a reeling Vikings team, which is really good but these fires, there's an interesting subtext here

because everybody expected when this game was in LA for Vikings fans to overwhelm a city that doesn't really represent for the Rams and now the idea that they're moving to Arizona It's just not as certain actually that the Minnesota Vikings are gonna turn that into you know, Minnesota Minneapolis Twin Cities West And so you have this dynamic against this catastrophic backdrop. But I'm focusing on that. And then the other game, I think you got to look at the commanders and the Buccaneers.

So Joe, we say this all the time, Baker Mayfield. There's no greater surrogate on national television than Joe for Baker Mayfield. And this is a guy who got snubbed by the Pro Bowl, although again, really, really tough competition to be a quarterback out of the NFC. But he had 40 touchdowns, you know, 70% completion, 4,500 yards, the third guy ever to do that.

And as much as we talk about Jayden Daniels, again, out of the SEC, LSU, great, great player. The Bucs are better. And they run the ball with this guy, Bucky Irving. The commanders can't really stop the run. And so I think Baker Mayfield going to the second round, I think we're gonna be talking and hearing about more Baker after this weekend,

which is a crazy thing given again, how he was discarded by some of the worst teams in the entire sport. Yeah, and it remains to me a shock that the Browns, I mean, we're trade in NFL history. You know, you always thought the Herschel Walker trade was, perhaps it used to be the worst trade in NFL history, but- Mayfield.

The Mayfield trade is the worst trade in NFL history. I saw, I have to say, what I said last year, and a lot of people disagreed with me. I thought what the Bears did, getting rid of Fields and getting Caleb Williams, I thought that was a catastrophic mistake. And I'm not so sure that also hasn't proven to be the case. But I want to talk about Jaden Daniels. I will say this. I saw this coming, saw the Lions coming. I did not see Jaden Daniels being this good. I knew he was good. I had no idea.

This guy is next level. Yeah, he is. He's amazing. And really, the only person who saw this coming was Jaden Daniels, right? Because he knew how good he was and how good he would be in the pros. Look, the commanders have been playing with house money

since about the sixth game of the season, you know I mean they had four wins last year. They've had twelve. Yeah this year. They're in the playoffs so Absolutely, everybody go ahead and think that you know, Baker Mayfield is gonna Gonna kill them and the Bucks are better and and have a nice Sunday evening. Yeah Mika says that 30 seconds at the top of the I'm going to go back to you and say something else to think that Jaden Daniels I love is

the first day walk into the field he looked like he owned the field. I want to say that about something else I've suffered with Atlanta Falcons for 50 years now. Yeah, you something everybody's about how horrible that Atlanta Falcons year was I saw something for different and Michael Pinnix I saw a guy that in the clutch drove down the field put the game into overtime against the commanders and a hot and the guy is calm in the pocket anybody that's a Falcons fan. I will go back to

what I said to Paul Feinbaum at the end of of Saban's first year. Yeah, maybe Saban was 6 and 6, but this guy and this guy's got a future in the sport and I'm telling you the Falcons I don't know a bad team with more offensive weapons right now with pennix I mean you know Bichon Bichon one of the 2, 3, 4, best running backs in football London great I don't want to go too deep in the weeds. I'm just saying these Atlanta fans are whining way too much they get a defense they've got something to look forward to.

Yeah Joe at the risk of being electro shocked by me go right now. There's a real Renaissance running back across the league and yes, you John Robinson Michael pennex you're right Falcons fans I think are too traumatized to feel what you're trying to sell them. But it's fun. It's really fun to watch this team more fun. I think next season, next season a lot better.

I think. And by the way, I come back player of the year this year. He probably won't get it. You've got to say though, Paul Feinbaum, Bryce Young, just extraordinary. Oh, there's, yeah, I mean, he was thrown out with the trash after about three weeks Completely done and really the last four or five weeks. Yeah, there were two games Joe Maybe three games that he led the team down and somebody either fumbled or made a idiotic mistake But he was brilliant And I think a lot of people are cheering for him because he was he was treated the worst by his own team

When they when they literally jettisoned him out of the starting lineup. Alright, Paul Feinbaum and Pablo Torres. That's all he's got to say. There's the electrocution, I feel it now. Yeah. No, dude. No, dude.

Alright.