Morning Joe - Morning Joe 11/15/24

Episode Date: November 15, 2024

Senators demand ethics report on AG pick Gaetz

I'm gonna let him go wild on health. I'm gonna let him go wild on the food. I'm gonna let him go wild on medicine. He really wants to, with the pesticides and the, you know, all the different things. I said he could do it. He could do anything he wants. He wants to look at the vaccines. He wants everything. I think it's great.

I think it's great. The only thing I say to Bobby is, leave the liquid gold under our feet alone. We want to have a little gasoline. Let me tell you, he's a great guy, RFK, and he's going to do pretty much what he wants as far as I'm concerned. He wants health for women, for men, for children. I happen to agree with a lot of the things he says. That's a look back at just some of Donald Trump's praise for his latest controversial

cabinet pick as he has chosen Robert F. Kennedy, Jr., an anti-vaccine activist, to lead the Department of Health and Human Services. We'll have much more about that selection straight ahead. Meanwhile, on Capitol Hill, senators in both parties are demanding the release of an ethics report on Trump's choice for attorney general. We'll show you what the lawmakers had to say about the years-long investigation into Matt Gaetz.

And we'll bring you new reporting on why Trump's relationship with North Korean dictator Kim Jong-un could be different in his second term. Good morning and welcome to morning Joe it is Friday November 15th, I'm Jonathan Amir in for Joe Meek and Willie with us a great group we have NBC News national affairs analyst and a partner at and chief political columnist at puck John Heilman pull a surprise winning columnist and

associate editor of the Washington Post Eugene political columnist at PUC, John Heilman, Pulitzer Prize winning columnist and associate editor of the Washington Post, Eugene Robinson, president emeritus of the Council on Foreign Relations, Richard Haas, who is also the author of the weekly newsletter Home it Away, which is available on Substack, managing editor at the Bulwark, Sam Stein, you just saw him ably host way too early, and Washington bureau chief at USA Today Susan page thank you all for being here this morning. We have a lot to get to let's dive right in both Democratic and Republican senators are calling for the release of a House Ethics

Committee report on Matt gates before his confirmation hearing process begins for attorney general. The bipartisan panel has been investigating Gates off and on since back in 2021. Most recently, it has been focusing on alleged sexual misconduct, illicit drug use, improper use of campaign funds and accepting improper gifts. Is that all? Gates officially resigned yesterday from Congress a day before the panel planned to vote on whether to release its report. But senators on Capitol Hill yesterday were demanding

that that information still be made public. The timing of his resignation and flight with President-elect Donald Trump suggests he believes that this report is not friendly and favorable. So I want to read the report and find out what the investigation behind it brought out. I'm asking for them to share that with the Senate Judiciary Committee. I want to preserve this report. I want to have the documentation behind it and have a chance to review it carefully,

both Democrats and Republicans. I think there should not be any limitation on the Senate Judiciary Committee's investigation, including whatever the House Ethics Committee's generated. So you will not see it? Absolutely. Matt Gaetz has chosen to resign from the House, but he can't choose to conceal that information. I can name between five and ten Republicans who are seriously considering voting against this nomination and insisting that there be a vote. Republicans as well as Democrats are absolutely aghast at the idea that we would allow a recess

appointment of the top judicial officer in the United States of America. That is absolutely abhorrent to the powers and traditions of the United States Senate and the Constitution. Do you have any concerns about someone who's been accused of sex trafficking, possibly leading the Department of Justice? Do I have concerns about that? Well, just to name one, I mean, Matt Gaetz comes to mind. I have concerns about him, about the way he disrupted and really destroyed the House of

Representatives for several months, what he did to a really good speaker, Kevin McCarthy, and accomplished nothing except getting rid of him, and ruined the reputation of the House of Representatives. Let's underscore those are both Democrats and Republicans, calling for that information to be released. And House Speaker Kevin McCarthy, you just heard his name, well, he also weighed in on Matt Gaetz's nomination as AG yesterday during an interview he conducted with Bloomberg News.

What do you make of the choices so far? I think choices are very good except one. Look, Gaetz won't get confirmed. Everybody knows that. You say Gaetz will not be confirmed. Why bother with the nomination then? You could talk to the president, but it's a good deflection from others, but it also gives ... I'll let us stand with that.

No, I mean, just provide us some thinking into what Trump had in mind when he made that nomination. Is it a case of you win some, lose some, it is a negotiating tactic? What is it? You'd have to ask the president, but Gates couldn't win in a Republican conference, so it doesn't matter. Certainly no love lost between McCarthy and Gates. McCarthy blames Gates for his ouster. So much to discuss here about this pick John Heilman. You know there

is some reporting and people I've talked to say that you know Gates's domination very much in doubt. We will see if that report is officially leaked or finds its way officially leaked or finds its way into a reporter's hands. There's 0.0% chance that that report will not become public. So when it does, one way or the other, what sort of impact do you think it will have? Let's just say it's not going to be good. I don't think there were the, what we know about this case, which isn't up close to everything, is that it's going to be embarrassing for Gates. I don't know if Gates is embarrassable.

And at this point, I don't know if Trump is embarrassable, but it's not going to help. I think there's only one real question here, right, which is the question about whether the normal rules of political physics still apply in the Senate and House. Because this is, Trump could have 45 different motives for why he's doing this, but the main motive I think for this is the same as the motive for a lot of these nominations, which is the Trump is trying to expand the power of the executive. He's trying to basically obviate the role of the Senate. He would like to either in a de facto way or de jure way, get rid of advice and consent. And so the fight over, with John Thune and others,

ostensibly, over the question of, is the Senate still gonna have its traditional role? Or are they gonna, the question of recess appointments, if Trump could turn the Senate into a rubber stamp, that is what he would like. And this is a way of forcing that issue, not just Gates, but across the board, on some of these less confirmable,

obviously confirmable nominees. And I think that we're gonna, very colorful, some of these less confirmable, obviously confirmable nominees. And I think that's very colorful, some of these very colorful nominations, and lots to criticize in them. But the fundamental thing here is about Trump's very early efforts to try to arrogate more and more power to the office, to himself personally, but to the executive branch as a proxy for him.

So Susan Page, let's dive into that. This is such a early stress test on the Republican controlled Senate and particularly its new majority leader, John Thune. I mean, there was, you know, like Thune wasn't Trump's pick for that post. You know, Republicans defied

him, but they did so with a secret ballot. It's very different now that they have to put their names to it. What's your sense as to their appetite for standing up to the incoming president? Well, let's just count the ways in which Republicans in the Senate have stood up to Donald Trump. Yeah, not never. Right. Not too often. Right. And not in things that Trump really cared about, like impeachment. So I would. You know, I think it's possible

the Senate wouldn't confirm Matt Gaetz. I think it is conceivable that they would. And I think it's also possible there's another repercussion to this, which is if for some reason Matt Gaetz does not get confirmed either because the report, ethics report is so explosive that he can't possibly continue with his nomination or because the Senate actually refuses to confirm him. I think that just really clears the way for these other appointments that may be seem quite remarkable and out of the mainstream But are not as bad as Matt Gaetz

So maybe the second person gets nominated for AG or maybe Tulsi Gabbard Maybe other people get a pass because the Senate in the end stands up to Matt Gaetz Right. They feel like they can stand up for against one and then not others And so in a moment, we'll talk to Richard Haas about the need to have actual competence ahead of the top of these hugely important departments. But Sam Stein, let's talk a little more about the politics of it, and in particular, this idea

of recess appointments, which has gotten a lot of buzz in recent days. What are the latest you and your team are hearing about whether that's a real thing? And explain what it would look like. So it's a real thing in that the Trump people want it to happen if they can't get their nominees through. I mean, they weren't, it wasn't a bluff.

They're putting it out there. I think ideally what they would have happen is that threat would linger and that would prompt Republicans to say, oh, we don't want to blow up the institution. Therefore we should just get these people confirmed through the old fashioned way. What it would look like, though, is procedurally kind of complicated to explain and difficult to understand. Essentially, the Senate Republicans would have to have a resolution from the House that allowed them to go to recess. They would then vote on a 50 vote threshold.

So the same exact threshold just to confirm these nominees anyway. And so, you know, will they have the votes to do that but not have the votes for the nominations themselves? That's hard to say. Ultimately, I think it's probably gonna be that they just take the votes rather than go to recess and that they ultimately pass a lot of these nominees. But look, Gene, you and I were talking about this. I mean, it ultimately comes down to John Thune and a couple other of his colleagues willing to say, you know what, we actually like our institutional powers and we want to keep them and so therefore we should not do this.

But there is no history of them actually having that type of spine. No, there is a history of senators feeling self-important and feeling self-important for the institution. So there is that and that's a real thing. But there's no history of them really standing up to Donald Trump. So why would we expect them to do this? I think we should keep in mind that if they don't confirm or they let this linger somehow, they don't go to recess.

There is a provision in the Constitution, I mean, Trump can adjourn Congress. Right. And so, would he go that far? Well, he's gone as far as Matt Gaetz and Telsey Gabbard, so why wouldn't he go that far? I don't think he's bluffing. No.

And certainly, I think there's also an element here of Trump wanting to simply to break the Senate, break any chance of resistance that they might have going forward. But there would be, of course, legal challenges to any sort of recess appointments, potentially all the way to the Supreme Court. Yes, Trump has some friends. Yeah, I know that would very different, perhaps rule differently than has previously on this very issue. So, but it's

not just about Matt Gaetz. that's not the only pick that Trump has made that's gained scarred some real headlines and skepticism in recent days another Robert F Kennedy jr. his choice for health and human services secretary that came yesterday that department oversees several agencies including the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and the Food and Drug Administration. The position does need to be confirmed by the Senate. Kennedy aligned himself with Trump after ending his own bid for president earlier this year.

He is an environmental lawyer, at one time respected for his work, who in recent years has become an outspoken conspiracy theorist. Kennedy has criticized COVID vaccines and childhood immunizations, falsely claiming that they have ties to autism and other things. He's also promoted products and medicines that the FDA has strictly warned against, such as raw milk. Kennedy thanked President-elect Trump for the nomination last night, writing on social media that he will quote, clean up corruption, stop the revolving door

between industry and government, and return our health agencies to the rich tradition of gold standard evidence-based science. We can certainly fact-check that. The president-elect has had nothing but praise for Kennedy and his ideas in the last few weeks on the campaign trail. Kennedy promised to let RFK Jr. quote, go wild on medicine. And last night, Trump again touted his choice. Today I nominated him for, I guess, if you like health,

and if you like people that live a long time, it's the most important position, RFK Jr. Bobby. Good. And I just looked at the news reports. People like you, Bobby. Don't get too popular, Bobby. You know, you've reached about the level now. like you, Bobby. Don't get too popular, Bobby.

You know, you've reached about the level now. We want you to come up with things and ideas and what you've been talking about for a long time. And I think you're going to do some unbelievable thing. Nobody's going to be able to do it like you. And boy, does he feel it in his heart. So congratulations also to your family. In the hours after RFK Jr.'s nomination, there was decidedly mixed reactions

from lawmakers on Capitol Hill. While many Democrats criticized the choice, Republicans, for the most part, appeared largely unbothered by the nomination, some even expressing enthusiasm. Senator Tommy Tuberville called it a brilliant pick, while Senator Ron Johnson called Kennedy a courageous truth-teller.

Senator Rand Paul, who, mind you, is a medical doctor, said Kennedy would detox the department after the Fauci era. Richard Haas, let's take a moment and just talk about how consequential this pick is if indeed it comes to be. I mean, he would over, there was some talk that he might be like a White House health star

with a nebulous role. That wouldn't require confirmation. This one does, and it's a huge post. We already know he's talked about everything from scaling back vaccines to taking fluoride out of the drinking water, lots of pretty dangerous stuff. And at the end of the day, any president would want to be served by competent people, the

best of the best, to head these important agencies. Be hard pressed to argue that's what Trump's going for here with a number of these picks, including Kennedy. Well, beginning with Kennedy and Gates is a close second. The choice to become Secretary of Defense is a close third. There's questions of judgment and there's questions of managerial competence. These are big jobs. You know, large numbers of agencies, large numbers of people, massive budgets.

The idea that someone like Kennedy could have this job. Talk about putting the Fox in charge of the hen house. He's supposed to save lives. If he actually were to implement some of his policies, Jonathan, people would die, particularly young people, because they wouldn't get vaccinated. He's, you know, discrediting vaccinations. lives. If he actually were to implement some of his policies, Jonathan, people would die, particularly young people, because they wouldn't get vaccinated. He's discrediting vaccinations. The idea that you'd put a conspiracy theorist in charge of this essential department, we could go on and on. The idea of what Matt Gaetz ought to have this job because he understands criminality, and therefore you ought to put him in charge of the Justice Department. You know, this is trolling the United States.

What's missing from this, it's not just a question of competence and judgment. It's a question of seriousness. The U.S. government, like it or not, has an extraordinary influence and power. It reaches every part of our lives. Tens of millions of people work for government at one level or another. Where is the seriousness? Where's the sense of stewardship?

These are not just appointments meant to troll. These are appointments meant to affect our lives on a daily basis. And I'm just struck by the lack of seriousness. Richard, I don't think you understand the nature of the project. The nature of the project is to destroy the government. The framework that we all have, which is these are are very important agencies they do a very important work and you need to make them better why are we taking that seriously you know it was weak into the Trump administration 2017 when Steve Bannon said the thing about

our goal is the deconstruction of the administrative state that is what they were doing now this is about tearing the government to pieces that's that's the goal that's what they're serious about they're not serious about making it better they're serious about tearing it're not serious about making it better. They're serious about tearing it down. Well, if they go in that direction, and they might, and by the way, the whole idea of recess appointments, it's a violation of a norm. The whole concept of recess appointment was not meant basically to avoid advice and consent. That's another way you may be right. Again, though, to destroy government and not put anything in its place, talk about then

accountability for consequences. And the only problem is we would have to wait two or four years to have a chance to voice accountability. And you are on the same side here. I'm not trying to make a case for it. I'm just trying to say the proper way to understand what they're doing is not there. If you're trying to evaluate how serious a pick is this person, how well would they run the department?

Matt Gaetz has said publicly he wants to shut down the DOJ. Yeah. And that's, he's pretty clear. And now he's being appointed to do it. And Trump, Trump is his more controversial selections are to head the agencies that he cares most about that he thinks represents the deep state. DOJ, the intelligence services, you can argue the health because of how the pandemic was handled last time around, even the Department of Defense.

But we should note, there's a bunch of voices coming out against Kennedy's nomination. One notable one, maybe surprising one, the editorial board of the New York Post, which is out with a piece this morning with this headline, Putting RFK Jr. in Charge of Health Breaks the First Rule of Medicine. The board writes in part this, the overriding rule of medicine is first, do no harm.

We're certain installing Robert F. Kennedy Jr. to head health and human services breaks this rule. We sat down with RFK Jr. back in May 2023. When it came to the topic of health, his views were a head-scratching spaghetti of what we can only call warped conspiracy theories and not just on vaccines. Neocons are responsible for America's policy ills. Pesticides, cell phones, ultrasound could be driving an upswing in Tourette syndrome and peanut allergies.

He told us with full conviction that all America's chronic health problems began in one year in the 1980s when a dozen bad things happened. In fact, we came out thinking he's nuts on a lot of fronts. A radical, prolonged and confused transition ordered by a guy like RFK Jr. who will use his high office to spout his controversial beliefs leaves a lot of room for things to go wrong and for people to wind up harmed or even dead. Extraordinarily strong words from the New York Post, a Murdoch-owned paper usually cheerleads Trump's and a paper we know Donald Trump cares very much about. Joining us now to talk about this Dr. Kavita Patel. She is an MSNBC medical

contributor and a former Obama White House health policy director. Dr. Patel thank you so much for joining us this morning. Let's just start here. What we know of Robert F. Kennedy's health beliefs and the policy changes he wants to implement. Just what sort of impact would that have on Americans, particularly our children? Yeah, Jonathan, it's a pretty seismic shift in health policy period, public health policy certainly,

because disappointment could lead to just an elevation of all of these prominent vaccine skeptics, misinformation. To your point about children, all we have to do is look at the state of Florida, an elevation of all of these like prominent vaccine skeptics, misinformation. To your point about children, all we have to do is look at the state of Florida where the Surgeon General there had been incredibly relaxed about vaccine,

not even vaccine mandates, Jonathan. He was incredibly lax about active measles cases and parents should, quote, decide if you can send your children to school with active measles. So I don't think it's trivial to say that this is undermining the future health of not just one generation, several generations because think about how long it's taken to end literally polio, measles, we have vaccines that can truly eradicate these diseases and now we'll see not only

again an elevation of nothing related to science, not evidence-based approaches but a dismantling of that critical public health infrastructure. And coming out of COVID, thinking about all the kind of threats that we have to public health in general, I can't think of a time when we needed trust in health institutions, and there's just not going to be any of that with a secretarial appointment at this level. Dr. Patel, let me just start, this is Sam Stein first of all, let me just start by saying this New York, that New York Post op-ed that was just read is the equivalent of being surprised that the leopard ate your face.

We all knew this was going to happen if Trump was going to be elected. He had said explicitly that Bobby Kennedy was going to get a high ranking appointment. So for the Post to be shocked by this, that he would turn to someone who said he's had a brain worm, Bobby Kennedy said he had a brain worm who bragged about taking roadkill bear and placing it in Central Park, who carved off a whale's head. These are some of the more lunatic things he's done. It just doesn't really pass the muster. I will say one element that kind of gets overlooked here is that HHS does have broad oversight

over a huge swath of government, among them NIH, which is the leading provider of grants for scientific research in the world. Robert F. Kennedy Jr. is on record saying he would stop investment in infectious disease research for eight years, just no infectious disease research for the United States to pay for. Can you speak a little bit to how we would have an absolute brain drain in this country if that were to happen? Scientists, researchers basically looking for grant money would leave America, go to

Canada, go to Korea, go to anywhere else that would pay for the research, and we would be put on the back burner in terms of scientific discovery in this country. Yeah, and Sam, it gets even worse than that. He also mentioned this is when he was running for president. He mentioned not just research around antibiotics or microbial diseases. He kind of made a comment about drug development in general. So think about the progress we've made against diseases.

When I started medical school, and it was, yes, it was a bit of a time ago, but it wasn't that long ago, someone with advanced stage lung cancer, it was essentially a death sentence. Now we have incredible monoclonal antibodies, incredible treatments. Now we have genetic therapies. We have sickle cell disease, cystic fibrosis, retinoblastoma. The list goes on of things that we can do. That was American research and drug discovery and innovation that we have made widely available in the globe. We can talk about drug prices as a separate topic. There's no question innovation is incredible. Taking that innovation and basically saying that we're going to export it, hunt it, and not even fund it is not only dangerous, but again, it's just putting forward this misinformation. By the

way, Sam, I was one of those people that discredited the idea of him getting a cabinet position because I thought managing 11 agencies like Medicare, Medicaid, NIH, FDA, that's hard work. And it didn't strike me that RK Junior wanted to do hard work. So, put me in that category of shocked and surprised that he got that pick because it takes... I've worked in and around those agencies. It's hard work and it is not something that is for the lighthearted because you're also negotiating with Congress on how to actually defend and get more money. When I, before I worked in the white house, I worked for Ted Kennedy.

Unfortunately, he would be turning, he is turning in his grave thinking about dismantling the institutions he fought for funding like the NIH. You can also zero out these budgets, something that you could see a secretary like Kennedy actually recommending to the president to submit in his annual recommendations for a budget. That alone can set back again. It's not trivial to say generation.

I think that what I'm looking for next is who are the appointments to run these agencies under an RKJ. That's going to be very interesting to see who has to kiss the ring and basically say that they agree with these policies and then go run the FDA. Could you imagine? Really important and terrifying words there from Dr. Kavita Patel. Dr. Patel, thank you so much. So Susan Page, you know, Robert F. Kennedy's confirmation, not a sure thing. We know that Senators Murkowski and Collins

in particular, they're in the health committee. They've expressed skepticism of him in the past. But there are just so many of these nominations. It's at least we have to take it seriously that he might indeed run these agencies, whether it's maybe even through a recess appointment. Let's just talk about what this truly would mean. I mean, it is the to Sam's point of a moment ago, there's a lot of Democrats yesterday talking, I heard from who were angrily talking about those undecided voters who might have broke for Trump at the very end because they were concerned about inflation. It's like, well, this is what you get. Not to say your concerns about inflation weren't valid. Undoubtedly, they were. But by signing up for Donald Trump, you get get. Not to say that your concerns about inflation weren't valid. Undoubtedly, they were.

But by signing up for Donald Trump, you get this. Not only do you potentially get Matt Gaetz as attorney general, and you get Tulsi Gabbard heading the national intelligence agencies, but now you have Robert F. Kennedy Jr. threatening to take away medical research, vaccinations, and even fluoride. You know, here's one thing. None of this should be a surprise to any of us. The surprise is only those who didn't think Donald Trump would do what he said he was going to do.

He said he was going to give Robert F. Kennedy Jr. a key role in healthcare. And you know the thing, Jonathan, that strikes me? We are just at the end of his first full week as president-elect. And he is moving so much more quickly and with so much more intent than he did eight years ago when he won the presidency in 2016. Think about where we are now compared with where we were then.

He's moved rapidly on making some of these key appointments. He's made some that are pretty broadly acceptable and some that have just raised the hackles around the country and certainly here in Washington even among some Republicans but it is a demonstration of how different I think this term Trump term is going to be compared to the last one where he surrounds himself with people he knows he agrees with him who will not be challenging him and with a much stronger sense of how things work in Washington and how to get done the things that he wants to get done.

We'll have much more on these selections throughout the morning. Next up here on Morning Joe, we will indeed talk about more of Trump's other nominations plus what his transition team is saying about potential pardons for the hundreds of people who have been imprisoned for their role in the January 6th Capitol attack.

Welcome back. Let's time out for a look at some of the other headlines making headlines this morning. The FBI seized the cell phone and other devices of Shane Caulkley, the CEO of the online betting site Polymarket. That happened yesterday at a raid at his New York City apartment. The company, of course, hosted millions of dollars in wagers on the presidential race without clear insight on who was putting up the money. He has not yet been arrested or charged. A lot we don't know yet about this particular investigation. Elsewhere, new research shows that nearly three quarters of

American adults are overweight or obese That's a sharp increase from the year 1990 when just over half of adults met that metric The study's authors were particularly alarmed by the steep rise in obesity among children noting the far-reaching implications on medical costs and Tonight former heavyweight champion Mike Tyson will go toe to toe with Jake Paul, yeah, Jake Paul, a YouTube celebrity turned boxer. The fight will stream on Netflix,

a major change from the traditional pay-per-view format. At 58 years old, Tyson is more than three decades older than his opponent. Adding to the hype, Tyson slapped Paul for stepping on his foot at their pre fight wait in last night. The match is being held at AT&T Stadium. In Arlington Texas. Let's turn back to politics now as Donald Trump prepares to move

back into the White House might be a look at my Tyson Donald Trump said sitting there for all of us. Didn't that look more like WWE to you than it did? That looked like World Wrestling. That all looked very staged to me. I mean, it probably- The face slap, the whole thing. The whole thing feels very staged. There's also UFC this weekend, and that's regarding Donald Trump rumored to be attending.

I'll tell you though, you don't want to get- even at his advanced stage, if you've ever been in the room with Mike Tyson even now, you do not want to get in the fight with Mike Tyson. Yeah. Yeah, just piece of advice for you and for you too, Haas. If you ever have to fight yourself in a room with Mike Tyson, he's stoned a lot because he's in the cannabis business, but he's also, he still is like, could kill you. Duly noted. There we go.

You might run into him sometime soon. With those words of wisdom now on the record, turning back to politics. As Trump prepares to move into the White House again, his team is looking to push back on some of his more campaign, more partisan campaign promises. In the lead-up to the election, Trump repeatedly said he would pardon the rioters convicted for their actions during the January 6th insurrection. -"Time Magazine asked you if you would consider

pardoning all the rioters. You said, yes, absolutely You called them patriots 140 police officers were assaulted that day their injuries included broken bones at least one officer lost an eye One had two cracked ribs to smash spinal discs another had a stroke Were the people who assaulted those 140 officers, including those I just mentioned, patriots who deserve pardons? My question is on those rioters who assaulted officers.

Would you pardon those people? What's going to happen? Oh, absolutely, I would. You would pardon those? If they're innocent, I would pardon them. You heard Trump there, very clear as to what he would do. But yesterday, a campaign spokeswoman distanced the Trump transition team from that promise, telling NBC News that President Trump will make part of decisions on a case by

case basis. That mirrors what the campaign said earlier this year, when it qualified Trump's promise as only including quote, protesters who are wrongfully imprisoned by crooked Joe Biden's Justice Department. Eugene Robinson, that's a pretty broad metric there. And certainly it wouldn't be shocking if the president-elect, once he takes office, goes, well, they were all wrongfully imprisoned. Yeah, he could do that.

I mean, the range of possibilities is from a total blanket pardon, it was a day of love, and they're all pardoned. Or no pardons, you know, one or two. Who knows? If he's gonna do it case by case, that means whim by whim in Donald Trump's world. And so we have no idea what he's gonna do.

The idea that this is even a thing, that this is even being considered is ridiculous and outrageous, but it's what he said he would do. And imagine, you know, what about the cases that haven't been brought yet? Well, they're never gonna get brought under Matt Gaetz if he becomes attorney general.

So this is where we are This is what people Very unfortunately voted for he said he's gonna do this. I mean he's gonna do it Richard I'm like I'm this jerk today apparently the Qualification the car fair fair point totally point. The qualification is not a qualification. Like in both cases where they said, oh, it's only case by case.

Trump goes out and says he's going to pardon them all. The campaign says it's case by case. That is not a qualification. That's not even saying, they're not even contradicting him. All they're saying is that can be read as saying Trump's going to pardon them all on a case by case basis. They're not even in conflict with each other. That is classic campaign spin to make something that sounds outrageous sound less outrageous,

but it doesn't in any way substantively change the fact that Trump has made very clear what his intent is. He said it multiple times in the campaign he was going to pardon them all. Is there any actual reason to suspect that Donald Trump will not pardon them all? Only if he decides politically that it would be counterproductive to pardon them all and he'll pardon whatever number he wants. But what this entire conversation is about though, if you know we like to say we're a nation of laws, it turns out not so much. We're a nation of extraordinary discretion and norms and norms. Yes.

Character counts and what this shows is you've got a Constitution, you've got laws, you've got procedures, but it only protects so much. It only takes you so far. And what we're seeing now really is a radical shift in our politics where discretion and executive discretion, everything we've talked about, we haven't gotten to the prime minister essentially which is Elon Musk, But you create all these mechanisms where you essentially do end runs around constitutional procedures, around the laws.

And you realize how vulnerable a democracy is to the character and the agendas of those who wield power. Jonathan, author of The Big Lie here, knowing Donald Trump and knowing how he relates to this issue, he spent a couple years saying he was going to pardon these people and that they were political prisoners and patriots. He just won the popular vote in the country. Is that not your understanding of Donald Trump as a student of him, that what he thinks is he has a mandate to do the things he said on the campaign trail? I don't think there's any reason to think he's not going to do this because I think he thinks

the politics are in his favor. Here's your your answer the very first rally he had in this presidential campaign cycle was in wayco march of 2023 in wayco, texas A location that already drew eyebrows for its association with the branch of davidians What was the very first thing that happened at that rally the january 6th convict choir played a song. There's your answer 641 am Eastern time here and there in Washington. Beautiful shot of the White House. President Biden though, not currently home. He's overseas and set to meet with Chinese President Xi Jinping tomorrow in Peru. It will be their first in-person meeting

since they met in California almost exactly a year ago. The next U.S. president to meet with Xi, of course, will be Donald Trump. However, the dynamic in the Far East since they last met has changed dramatically in the past four years. Joining us live now from Beijing is NBC News international correspondent Janice Mackey-Ferrer. Janice, preview for us, if you will, this meeting between Xi and Biden tomorrow, but also what this relationship between the China and the United States will look like once Donald Trump returns to office.

Well, Jonathan, one of the more challenging foreign policy issues we know facing any U.S. president is North Korea. And while President-elect Trump has said that Kim Jong-un misses him, it isn't clear whether that is the case because Kim is now emboldened and he is no longer alone. Donald Trump has long touted his personal touch with leaders like Xi Jinping, Vladimir Putin and Kim Jong-un. You know, I got to know a lot of the foreign leaders and let me tell you, unlike our leader, they're at the top of their game. But in his second presidency, it's a different world Trump is facing. With U.S. officials saying thousands of North Korean troops are preparing to fight with Russian forces in Kursk.

North Korean weapons already on the battlefield. And more nuclear-capable missiles being tested. South Korea's military intelligence agency also warned last month that a seventh nuclear test could be coming. Kim Jong-un has been emboldened by the prestige of his strategic ties to Russia that have hardened his stance against the U.S. It's a pivot from the optics of Trump's first term, when it was all smiles, flattery and letters.

And we'll go back and forth, and then we fell in love, okay? That took a turn in 2019, when Trump, at a summit in Hanoi, abruptly broke off talks with Kim. Now that he's tight with Putin, analysts say Kim may not be quick to rekindle a friendship with Trump. The strategic value of the United States for Pyongyang has gone down considerably. North Korea has no reason to talk about denuclearization. Any talks that are premised on denuclearization, Kim Jong-un has no reason to show up.

Tension is also now tearing at the Korean Peninsula, where in the last year Kim has called off the goal of unification, even blowing up roads near the border and declaring Seoul a permanent enemy. It's all a concern here in China that North Korean troops could expand the war in Europe and pull Asia into it. Chinese officials avoid commenting on the Putin-Kim partnership, saying their bilateral relationship is their business. Yet as the economic lifeline to both Russia and North Korea, China has the clout. They're just not using it, despite pressure from the U.S. to do more. Obviously, we would hope that China would use its influence, it doesn't appear that they are,

with the Russian government to cease and desist but I don't think that's happening. It's unfortunate. In that sense China presents a dilemma for Trump who said he could end the war in Ukraine but may find the road to a deal goes through Beijing. There are so many, so many things that need China, U.S. to cooperate. Yeah, it is almost in everything, everywhere. As Trump makes his return to the world stage, he'll be surrounded by familiar faces. But with Kim's nuclear advances and his troops aiding Russia against U.S. armed Ukraine,

the stakes for Trump's second term are edging higher. Given the uncertainty that's lingering around continued U.S. support for Ukraine, analysts in Seoul now say the government there is reconsidering whether they're going to send weapons to Kiev until there is some sort of clarity on what the Trump they're going to send weapons to Kiev until there is some sort of clarity on what the Trump administration is going to do. In the meantime, the office of South Korean President Yun Seok-yul confirms that he recently started practicing golf to prepare for future meetings with Mr. Trump. Jonathan?

NBC's Janice Mackey-Frera live from Beijing. Thank you so much. There have been a number of world leaders who have decided that golf diplomacy was the way to go with Trump. So Richard, let's get your analysis here on what we just heard. How Kim Jong-un, far less isolated than he used to be when Trump was in office the first time,

and how you see the relationship between Washington and Beijing once the 47th president assumes the Oval Office. So let's look at two things. One is North Korea. North Korea now has far more missiles and more nuclear weapons. And it has a close relationship with Russia. And whereas China was at times somewhat restrained in how it dealt with North Korea, in part

it didn't want to provoke Japan or South Korea, Russia has no constraints because Russia wants North Korean help for Ukraine. So this situation has grown worse. China's not being helpful right now. Russia's being anything but helpful. So this is a real problem. What doesn't help is also the last time Donald Trump was president, US ties with Seoul, with South Korea were strained.

He threatened to pull US forces out and so forth. So right now in South Korea, there's a big debate. Should they have nuclear weapons of their own if they can't count on the United States? So you've got all those dynamics. China is the most important bilateral relationship. And I think for the Trump administration, the biggest question, Jonathan, will be what's our priority? Is it to deal with the trade imbalance?

Donald Trump is talking about 60 percent tariffs against China. China's obviously prepared to retaliate economically if we do that against American firms. But meanwhile, we've got the South China Sea. China's moving there against the Philippines. That could be the first foreign policy crisis facing a Trump presidency. You've obviously got Taiwan, China's ambitions to take over Taiwan at some point. We just talked about North Korea. So the question is, how do we approach China? This relationship is far worse than it was when Donald Trump was last president. It's steadily deteriorated over the years.

So what this is a reminder is the foreign policy inbox this time around, we haven't even talked about the Middle East, we've barely mentioned Ukraine. The foreign policy inbox this time around is far more crowded and far more difficult than it was eight years ago. You know, Richard, this is Susan Page. I have a question for you. You know, I think we met when you were working at the Bush White House,

another president who lost his bid for reelection. And now we have, we still have another president in the White House governing, and in fact on a foreign trip at this moment. What could President Biden do in the remaining weeks of his presidency to set up things on Ukraine or on climate change, issues that he cares a lot about, they're about to have being a world of hurt. Is there anything the sitting president can do, even though he's a lame duck, to affect

the turn of events ahead? It's a good question. That's one I've been wrestling with, Susan. Like, he can't lock things in, and he can't guarantee, for example, he can't reassure allies that the United States will be there. I remember four years ago, Joe Biden said, the United States is back.

Well, it turns out Donald Trump is back, and that means something very different. But what he could do, he could come forward with proposals. Let me give you two. One is with Ukraine. He could lay out basically a negotiating position for Ukraine, but say in order to make this happen the United States has to commit to support Ukraine. He could also put pressure on Russia by doing that.

So he could basically lay out an entire negotiating position there. Similarly in the Middle East, he could lay out a proposal for Gaza. He could lay out a proposal for Lebanon. Again, he can't lock Donald Trump in. But what he could do is put out some comprehensive foreign policy initiatives that Donald Trump would at least have to deal with. And I think it could in some ways frame the situation. But at the end of the day, Joe Biden's a lame duck.

He's limited. But I still think he could use his voice if he were prepared to. When Trump won the first time in 2016, then President Obama also traveled to an international summit and tried to reassure America's allies, hey, this is an operation where you could still count on us.

I think we should expect similar language from President Biden in the next few days here in Peru and then the G20 in Brazil. But can the world believe it? No, it won't reassure anybody. language from President Biden in the next few days here in Peru and then the G20 in Brazil, but can the world believe it? No, it won't reassure anybody and that's the bottom line. Indeed, what it shows is how the United States now has become essentially unpredictable and unreliable. And for our allies, in particular, Jonathan, this is truly unnerving because they depend on us. Richard Haas and Susan Page, thank you both for being with us this morning. Here comes your brotherly shove.

Everybody knows what's coming. Ertz, can he get in? He is. Touchdown. The Philadelphia Eagles get a 76-yard drive to open the fourth quarter with their trademark tush push into the end zone for their first lead of last night's game against the Washington commanders. I'm still not quite sure why that play is legal. Running back Saquon Barkley carried an otherwise sluggish Eagles offense with a hundred and forty six yards rushing in two touchdowns scored within twenty seconds of each other at the end of the 4th to ice the game he has been so good for them as MVP talk. Sorry Giants fans and the Eagles

extend their NFC East lead with a 26 to 18 victory over the commander Sam Stein that's a tough one for New York Giants fans to see say Kwon Barkley running at will all season long. He was such a popular and effective player for New York and they let him go 90 minutes down the turnpike he's an MVP candidate in Philly. Yeah, but you know we Giants fans this that we don't have feelings anymore we're not to any disappointment. We I I

stopped watching them after week 2 and I actually feel good about it because my Sundays are more free. And frankly like you know I feel bad for Eugene over here because you have to watch the night I don't feel bad the commanders are great this year but they didn't come. The commanders are great don't feel no don't don't cry for me no but they didn't show up last night. Yeah they didn't you know they were the the Eagles weren't that great but the commanders really weren't themselves and and Jayden Daniels hasn't been himself the last two three years. Exactly. He's a rookie. He's figuring out the defenses are throwing things at him.

New things every every week. I also think when he had that rib injury earlier this season I actually think he hasn't quite been the same since that but ribs do heal. So watch us later. You guys have a bright future. We have nothing. Nothing. That's great. Nothing at all. But maybe the first pick in the draft this year. Thanks, guys. Coming up, we'll turn back to President-elect Trump's latest controversial cabinet pick,

Dr. Zeke Emanuel, a former White House advisor for health policy under President Obama. He'll join us to weigh in on Robert F. Kennedy Jr.'s nomination as HHS secretary. Morning, Joe. We'll be right back with that.