Morning Joe - Morning Joe 11/20/23

Episode Date: November 20, 2023

Former First Lady Rosalynn Carter dies at 96

Insiders are concerned that President Biden's chances for re-election could be damaged by his unwavering support for Israel. But I think the bigger problem for Biden is that he is six years older than Israel. All right. Good morning and welcome to Morning Joe. It is Monday, November 20th. This morning, there are positive signs that more hostages held by Hamas could soon be freed. We'll get the latest on that and the war with a live report from Tel Aviv. Plus, we'll discuss how the war is impacting Biden politically as a new poll shows young voters are growing even more disillusioned with the current administration. Also ahead, we'll remember the life and legacy of former First Lady Rosalyn Carter. Wow.

She yesterday, she I would hear your family talk about Rosalyn Carter just and the love and the respect that you all had for her from from the kids to your mom, to your father, who is, by the way, completely smitten with what you called her subtle southern charm. Yeah, she had quiet power. She was incredibly impactful in the White House and beyond, just like her husband, the former president. And she was the kindest, most patient woman I think I've ever met. Well, I heard so many tributes yesterday about Mrs. Carter. We're going to have Jonathan Alter

on later today along with John Meacham and Andrea Mitchell. But yesterday, Jonathan Alter said, without a doubt, the most significant first lady since Eleanor Roosevelt. Absolutely. And what you were looking there are pictures of my dad, my mom and Rosalind Carter. Actually, that's at one of my mother's sculpture shows. And you can see the relationship was charming and fun and also very serious because she dealt with major, major issues of our time ahead of our time, even mental health. And she was a huge humanitarian as well. So she stepped in where she thought she could be helpful. And let me just say, as we look at this picture, there's some things to just personally from what I've heard from you and your family.

She was very motherly to you. She was very supportive of your mother's art. And she was very patient with your father and me and my father. Yes, absolutely. Exactly. We'll have much more on on her remarkable life and her impact on this country and around the world. With us, we have the host of way too early White House bureau chief at Politico, Jonathan Lemire, U.S. special correspondent for BBC News, Katty Kay, columnist and associate editor for The Washington Post, David Ignatius, president emeritus of the Council on Foreign Relations, Richard Haass. He's also a Giants fan. Absolutely. And, you know, Richard, the Giants can't

even like lose right now is the time for them to start losing, to get draft picks. And what do they do? They win and you see guys on the field and they're like celebrating what I'm going, what are you celebrating about? And also, I mean, in New York, I mean, New York football is crazy. The Jets, they figure out with two minutes left in the fourth quarter, three quarters of the way through the season that their quarterback may not be good. As for the Giants, yes, a time for every purpose under heaven. And yesterday was a time to lose. And unfortunately, they did not read exactly. Yeah, exactly. Also with us the morning this morning, we have the host of the podcast on brand with Donnie Deutsch. Donnie Deutsch is with us as well. We'll start with our top story this morning. Israeli defense forces have released new video of what they say is a, quote, fortified terror

tunnel under Gaza's main hospital. Troops began their raid of the medical say is a, quote, fortified terror tunnel under Gaza's main hospital. Troops began their raid of the medical facility last week, saying Hamas has a command center beneath the complex. Israeli officials say they've been excavating the site for several days. Video shows a vertical shaft with a ladder that leads to a staircase, as well as a door with a small square segment that Israeli officials say is a, quote, firing hole. NBC News cannot independently verify these details. The IDF also released footage of what it describes as Hamas members, quote, forcibly transporting hostages through Gaza's main hospital. Israel says this is proof the terrorist

group used the medical facility the day it attacked Israel. NBC News is unable to independently verify the IDF's description of the video. Meanwhile, Israel and Hamas are reportedly close to securing a deal on the release of dozens of hostages. That is, according to sources familiar with the negotiations. The Washington Post reports the release could happen within the next few days. According to the Post, under the terms of the deal, both parties must agree to stop fighting for at least five days. During that time, 50 or more hostages would be released in smaller batches every 24 hours. And of course, it's not a coincidence that the closer Israel gets to Hamas, the more tunnels they uncover.

This is a reality. People don't they don't have to like it if they they don't want to like it. If they want to go on TikTok and hear lies, they can hear lies. But there's a reason Hamas is now talking about negotiating for hostages and releasing hostages. It's because they desperately need four or five days without Israel like tracking them down so they can escape. And of course, this is the decision that will be made. And I'm sure if the deal can be made, it'll be made. But make no mistake, they're only making that deal because Israel has pressed far more than they ever expected them to. Yeah. Joining us now from Tel Aviv, NBC News Chief International Correspond correspondent Keir Simmons with more on this. And Keir, obviously,

there is such an extreme hope upon hope to get hostages home, too, which is the friction here. Yeah, I mean, I just spoke to a mother here, one daughter, eight, one daughter, 15. and she says that she's now waiting 45 days and if she if Israel and Hamas aren't going to release them or find a way to get them free then she'll just go to Gaza herself she says but clearly that's not really going to be possible you would think but that's how desperate she is so it is a terrible terrible situation I mean the officials that I talk to with knowledge of the talks talk about inching towards a deal. But I think that it's important to just caveat that. And I've spoken to them many times over many weeks to just caveat that with that, for example, when the talk is about that, you know, now we're down to scheduling just what happens when. I mean, that's a big deal in a deal. You know, when are hostages released? How many are released? And when does the aid come in? As well as other things like, for example,

one aspect of those talks, Hamas asking, calling, demanding that Palestinian prisoners be released by Israel. And which of those prisoners? We've met women and children or more, all of those things. So, you know, the reality is with this deal is that it's not done until it's done. And that's what officials that I speak to will say. And that's partly because they've seen things collapse on multiple occasions in the past, including, you know, 24 hours before the ground invasion began, that there were real hopes that there would be a breakthrough. Ultimately, I don't think that Israel really felt satisfied that it was being given a clear picture

of how many hostages would be released. And then, of course, there'll be the internal debates in the Israeli government over that question of some saying, let's go ahead and do the ground invasion, let's not pause. So, you know, all of these aspects mean that, you know, it's kind of a mixed picture. On the one hand, these talks, many sides say these talks look positive. On the other hand, saying that, you know, you can't, it's not done until it's done. And then that question of the Al-Shifa hospital and what's happening there, I think part of this is about the language, of course, so much of it is about language and about perception. And ultimately, what Israel talked about prior to this, about an extensive headquarters under

al-Shifa hospital, putting out an illustration of what that headquarters might look like. Inevitably, people are going to compare what Israel finds with what it said, even if it did say it was an illustration. Take a listen to the deputy national security talking on Meet the Press yesterday. The Qatari prime minister said today that Israel's actions at al-Shifa hospital

are a quote, crime. Does the White House stand by Israel's actions at al-Shifa hospital are a, quote, crime. Does the White House stand by Israel's assessment that Hamas is headquartered underneath the hospital? And are you confident that Israel is following international law? Our intelligence, U.S. intelligence information, not just Israeli intelligence information, suggests that Hamas has used al-Shifa in an unconscionable way as a command and control facility for the planning of terrorist attacks and the execution of terrorist attacks, and continues to do

so. That does not, in our view, mean that Israel should conduct airstrikes on the hospital or ground assaults on the hospital. We've been equally clear about that. But Hamas has put these people in severe jeopardy by the way in which it's conducting this war. So just to unpick the language a little bit, you know, a command and control facility doesn't sound quite like, Secretary Blinken has talked about a command and control node, doesn't quite sound like the same language as the Israelis' idea of an extensive headquarters. And we shall see. But just to quickly finish, there are 31 babies now in southern Gaza who have been evacuated safely from al-Shifa.

But some of those babies died because they say they're of contaminated water and hypothermia. That's why this question of what exactly was at al-Shifa is at al-Shifa in terms of how mass is important. All right. NBC's Keir Simmons, thank you so much. And again, I mean, you think of babies being held and injured people, you don't know how long they can last. And so there is such a pressure to try and figure out how to get the hostages home. Yeah, there is a pressure to figure out

how to get the hostages home. And also a growing realization, as David Ignatius wrote in his latest piece, a growing realization that Israel may be winning the war on the ground, but they are losing the information war. And so obviously, as we move into this new phase, it's something that they have to be, and I think they are. They have to be more cognizant of because, you know, the question that David, that Richard, that the smartest minds in foreign policy said at the start of this war is the war must be conducted with an eye to what happens after the war, as David said, the day after the war. Well, David, you said in your recent piece that the Israelis don't know what that looks like. I want to play you a clip that went viral this weekend, got picked up. It's Bill Clinton from Hillary Clinton's 2016 presidential campaign. It's spreading on

social media right now. This is the former president speaking at a campaign event for his wife in New Jersey when a crowd member yelled, what about Gaza? This is what Bill Clinton said regarding his record on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. I killed myself to give the Palestinians a state. I had a deal they turned down that would have given them all of Gaza. Wait, wait. All of Gaza, between 96 and 97 percent of the West Bank, compensating land in Israel. You name it. Then, when Mr. Fayyad was the prime minister of the Palestinians on the West Bank, we had all the Muslim countries willing to normalize relations with Israel if they had recognized the Palestinian state.

Did I agree with the Israeli policy? No. My whole life I did that. So, David, they're in and nobody understands this on TikTok, obviously. Nobody, nobody has this context. I bring it up for a good reason, because if you're the Israelis and you're looking at what happens the day after, how you bring peace to the land, how you bring security to the land, you look at the fact that through the years, the Palestinians have said no to every peace deal, including what Bill Clinton was talking about in

2000, where you're talking about all of Gaza, 97 percent of the West Bank, some land in Israel to compensate for the land not in the West Bank, a capital in East Jerusalem, on and on and on and on. And so I guess my question back to you is, what could Israel look like the day after this war is over? How do we get to a two-state solution when the Palestinians have been given everything they've asked for in the past and said no. Well, Joe, I certainly think that the Palestinians have been foolish, have squandered their opportunities for peace, for having a state of their own. Multiple deals, the ones Clinton talks about, but many others have been presented to them. I think that what we've seen in this terrible Gaza war is that this problem doesn't go away and that it is in Israel's interest, even at a time when Israelis have lost faith in a Palestinian partner in peace, to find some way using Israel's new friends in the Arab world. And that's a growing list. Probably includes Saudi Arabia now, in addition to the UAE, Egypt, Jordan.

Use those countries to help build a different kind of governance in Gaza and the West Bank. Post-Hamas, Israel is going to destroy Hamas. And I think anybody who's watched Hamas's actions since they took power in 2006, 2007 would say they've done nothing for Gaza. They've done nothing except prepare for war. So post Hamas governance in Gaza, a different, revitalized Palestinian authority in the West Bank, aided by these key Arab countries, maybe over several years begins to produce something more stable. It's got to be demilitarized. The Israelis can't cower in fear again the way they did on October 7. That's over. That's not going to happen.

I just felt after spending a week in Israel, a day in Gaza City a week ago, that it's time for Israel to focus more on these day after issues and humanitarian issues. Not simply because it's the right thing to do morally, which I think it is, but because it's important for the operational plans that they have. Losing an information war makes it hard to win the war on the ground. You're just constantly answering questions of what about that video and where are the weapons? It's in Israel's interest to be seen, to be trying to take Palestinians who probably don't support Hamas after this. They're furious at what they've been let into, help them to begin to build better lives. And over time, it'll take a couple of years, a different kind of governance.

So I think I concluded my long piece yesterday, Joe, saying this is too tough for Israel to do right now. It's too tough for the Palestinians. The United States, as a friend of Israel, needs to help them think about how to build something new. That's that's our job. People may not want to listen to us at first, but I admire Biden for persisting, raising this, coming back the issue of Palestinian state, because I think in the long run, that's the only way to avoid endless recurrence of these wars. So we should note that over the weekend, there was some reporting that a deal was done for the hostage release in exchange for a pause. But the White House strongly pushed back against that and says it's close, but they're still talking. Nothing official yet. And there are still debates in the Israeli Knesset as to whether they want to go forth with that. But, Richard, you know, we heard from Deputy National Security Advisor

John Feiner over the weekend with some, though support for Israel, some clearly some, he was trying to walk a fine line there and also pushing back against some of the Israelis' tactics in this operation. And with that as the backdrop, let's put the question to you, which David just answered. Are you seeing any sort of encouraging signs from Israel that they are thinking about after the war, that they are thinking about the day after and are taking any steps to prepare for it? Short answer is no. And just a rule of thumb, United States learned in Iraq, before you start a war, think about how you end a war. It's not clear to me the Israelis did that here. There's zero enthusiasm in the Arab world for playing a role, zero enthusiasm in the UN for

anybody playing a role. And also the Palestinian Authority, Jonathan, lacks the capacity. Even I'd say go beyond that. Who are the Israelis talking to? Essentially, they're talking to Hamas right now through Qatar. So the question is, does Hamas totally get eliminated? I doubt it. Even if they're dramatically reduced as a fighting force, I think politically, that kind of radical organization, back to the previous conversation that David was having, is you've got to create momentum or change the context, begin to move towards a Palestinian political process that has hope. We're not talking about negotiations. This is pre-negotiations. Maybe it's pre-pre-negotiations. But you've got to start a process. So there's ultimately an alternative to Palestinians who basically are committed to trying to destroy Israel, killing Jews and all that. But the Israelis haven't embarked on that. And by the way, it's not clear this Israeli

government can. The reason you can't even get an agreement on a hostage deal from Israel, there's such a split in this Israeli government, Jonathan. They're not in the right zip code yet when it comes to thinking about the day after. Yeah, let me just ask really quickly, jump in here really quickly for David or for Richard. How long does Netanyahu survive? Do Israelis understand? I know he's unpopular there, but do they understand that these images take on an even more grim tone across the world because Netanyahu is running Israel right now? Joe, there's only two ways to get rid of a prime minister in Israel. One is elections. The other is a parliamentary reshuffling. You're not going to have elections in the middle of a crisis like that.

It's simply not on. Could you have a reshuffling? Again, I think the odds are against it. What's going to happen? You're probably after a pause. If there is a hostage deal, you'll probably see an intensification of Israeli strikes in the south because the problem is you not only have Hamas largely in the south of Gaza, you have most of the people of Gaza in the south there. So what you're going to see is more civilian casualties. There'll be a greater sense of crisis. And I just don't think at that moment, given October 7th, given the sense of crisis, Israelis are going to change horses midstream. None of the investigations on October 7th are going to be able to really get underway or gain

traction. So I think Bibi Netanyahu is going to be prime minister probably for longer than is good for Israel or the United States. So let me just jump in. Rarely do I disagree with Richard, but I do on this. I think when the war ends, Bibi's gone. In a week in Israel, I couldn't find people on the right, on the left, who were willing to speak up for him. There's a sense that his polarizing politics in the year before this war broke out, trying to keep his unwieldy coalition together by making demands on behalf of his right-wing supporters, weakened the nation. One former prime minister, Naftali Bennett, not speaking about Bibi by name, but generally said Bibi's tactics left Israel so weak that its enemies finally saw that it was vulnerable and then they attacked.

I think that feeling is widespread in Israel. I think there's a desire for new leadership. Let's talk about who else. The polls are very clear that Bibi lags far behind Benny Gantz, his coalition partner. So I do think a change is coming. And I think a lot of Israelis do hold him responsible for the country coming into war so unprepared. Donny, images are so important, of course. I mean, you know this. Particularly, they've become very important in this war.

At the moment, people are focused on the images out of Gaza. And there are terrible pictures of babies being killed. And I, you know, the concern must be about what that does to future generations of Palestinians and how they feel about Israel and what they're prepared to do to fight Israel. But the Israeli government is also trying to remind the world about what happened on October the 7th. As time moves on, they're afraid that people are looking at Gaza and the situation there, and they're not remembering what happened on October the 7th. I know that you've had an opportunity to see some of that video from the attack on October the 7th.

Who was showing you what, and what did you see? There's 47 minutes of raw footage that I was able to see that are put together by the Israeli Defense Forces, and they're not making available to the public out of respect to the families of the victims. And it was 47 minutes of raw footage of basically taken from the terrorists, the jihadists, the Hamas body cameras as they were doing the slaughter. And it was surveillance footage and it was first responders footage. And I can't unsee it. And if you saw this, everybody marching in this country, I should see this footage.

And the heinousness of it, the seeing the bodies of children, beheaded bodies, burnt bodies, seeing somebody taking a garden hoe and trying to behead a body. What was most frightening was the glee on the terrorists, the jihadists, as they did this. The jubilation, the rapture, as they committed this slaughter, this heinous slaughter that was so frightening that what hit me as I watched the joy, as they screamed, God is great, God is great, as they killed. As they killed. And as they, as they, as one, and I mentioned this last week, there was, there's an audio of a, a, a terrorist who had just killed his husband and wife. And he was on the phone screaming, I just killed Jews with my bare hands and God is great. And, and what hit me also watching this was it wasn't just Jews.

This was an attack on Western civilization. This is a jihad. This is no different than what happened there. September 11th is our October 7th. Also, this would happen here. Also, this was the same math. The same jihadists had nothing to do with a two state solution. This is pure slaughter and the joy of these jihadists. If everybody could see it here, they might see things a little bit differently. Well, and David Ignatius there, of course, is what hangs over the Israeli people. Everybody knows somebody who has been touched and affected by this. And again, just the specifics, I mean, that Donnie talked about, just so graphic, so heinous and a complete celebration. Again, just the specifics, I mean, that Donnie talked about, just so graphic, so heinous. And a complete celebration, again, from an organization that ran Gaza since 2006, 2007, whose stated goal is to destroy the state of Israel and to kill Jews. So like Donnie, I saw this film, 45 minutes or so. And so an Israeli said to me, we can't get these images out of our minds. We lose sleep over them. And I felt being asked to watch this, maybe Donnie did too, members of Congress have watched the footage. The Israelis would like the head of every Arab country bordering Israel to watch this footage. But I felt the Israelis want all of us to lose some sleep too, just as they have.

Seeing these images, this is the worst face of what human beings can do. There's no real way to say it other than that. As Donnie said, it's like a high school football game where people are jumping up and down. They're so excited at just killing, at having just murdered a dozen people. It's hard to watch that. And so I think Israel wants to keep those images alive in people's minds, even as we're watching images. You know, Palestinian mothers love their children as much as Israelis mothers do. And the images from Gaza are heart-rending. And I think Israelis just want us to remember what started this, the day it started,

the emotions that triggered it and all the other suffering, which is real and which we should care about as well. Well, and David is so right, Mika, we should. And how can you as a human being not be heartbroken by reading the piece in The New York Times yesterday, looking at the images, hearing what's happening? Also understanding the day of those attacks. And I know we talked about it the day of the attacks, that Hamas knew exactly what they were doing. They were slaughtering Israelis. They were raping Israelis. They were burning Israelis. They were slaughtering Israelis. They were raping Israelis. They were burning

Israelis. They were killing Jews. They were they were they were ecstatic over how how graphic and how heinous and how brutal the murders were. And we said it that day, they then were going to run back to Gaza and use the Palestinian people as human shields. Think about that. Not only did they commit acts of terror against the Israeli people, against Jews, but they knew they were going to be committing acts of terror against the Palestinian people because they were going to use Palestinian children, Palestinian mothers, Palestinian grandmothers. They were going to use the people of Gaza as their human shields. And they knew the world would rightfully rise up and be heartbroken by the images they saw. But that's exactly what Hamas wanted. That was part of their plan. And they also knew that, as Israelis are saying,

not all Palestinian blood is equal. For the thousands and thousands of Palestinians that were tortured, killed, imprisoned, slaughtered by Assad. No protests, none, none. But when the Jews tried to defend themselves, it's on the front page of the papers all over the world. And again, it is it is absolutely heinous, but Hamas used the cynicism of the West, of people who hate Israel. They knew they could use the cynicism of the Arab states. They knew they could use the cynicism of those who hate, as Donnie said, the West. And they've done it. And they've seen it unfold.

And this is exactly what we said was going to happen. All part of Hamas's plan. And now the same thing with the hostage negotiations. If you don't think Hamas isn't negotiating now, desperate to get a deal, desperate to get a pause, desperate to get the Israeli army off their backs, if you don't think that's not why they're negotiating now and moving toward the deal, well, then you never saw any of this coming. David Ignatius, thank you very much for being on this morning and still ahead on Morning Joe. We have a lot more to get to this morning. For the first time ever, NBC News polling has President Joe Biden losing to Donald Trump in a hypothetical general election matchup. We'll dig into those new numbers. Plus, an appeals court

this morning will hear arguments on whether to reinstate a gag order against Donald Trump in the federal case charging him with plotting to overturn the 2020 election. By the way, I mean, they said they said Donald Trump led an insurrection against the United States government. In Colorado, and also said, oh, yeah, and he can be on the ballot. We'll have live reporting from the courthouse in Washington, and we'll have an update on a potential trial date for the election interference case in Georgia. Also ahead, we are remembering the life and remarkable legacy of former First Lady Rosalynn Carter, who passed away yesterday. You're watching Morning Joe. We'll be right back. So, Mika, of course, this morning, we biography right now. But this is what Ed got from your father's diary from January 1977.

Rosalind was very nice. This is Dr. Brzezinski writing. Rosalind was very nice to me and Dr. Brzezinski writing. Rosalind was very nice to me and invited Mika to come and play with Amy and then went and looked for Mika when she didn't show up for lunch from Dr. Brzezinski's diary about their respective nine-year-old girls at a pre-inaugural weekend at St. Simon's Island. But you always said. We disappeared. You always said, though, she was very motherly, very sweet. Incredibly so. Would wipe chocolate from your face with great regularity. She was really remarkable and kind and warm and incredibly patient.

I actually, I've got my dad's book, which really has a lot of his diaries in it, Power and Principle. And I have some nice stories about her that I'll share in just a moment. But first, NBC Nightly News anchor Lester Holt reports on her life and legacy. It's now my pleasure to introduce someone whom I love and respect and cherish, my wife Rosalynn. She was Jimmy Carter's partner, best friend, and closest advisor in and out of the White House for more than three quarters of a century. Soft-spoken, politically savvy, and fiercely determined, Rosalynn Carter was known as the Steel Magnolia, and she made the role of First Lady her own. Born Rosalind Smith in Plains, Georgia, she was a neighbor to Jimmy Carter, three years her senior. I was shy and found out that he was so easy to talk to, and we just kind of hit it off really well.

I think I was already in love with him. They married in 1946 when she was 18. Rose and I have been equally and totally dedicated partners, even when I was still earning a living as a peanut farmer. Jimmy ran the family farm. Rosalynn helped manage the business. They raised a family, three sons, and later daughter Amy. Jimmy got into politics, elected Georgia governor in 1970, then running for president with Rosalind's enthusiastic support. And people got to know him,

and when they know him, they vote for him. Thank you both very much. And she's completely objective and unbiased. I love politics. The small-town girl with a poor family who never finished college thrived on the national stage. Every day I see things that I think I could help with, things that I want to learn more

about. Jimmy Carter won the election, with Rosalynn playing a key role. I was involved with the selection of the vice president. She was front and center from the start, attending cabinet meetings, leading on policy issues, including mental health, becoming the first First Lady since Eleanor Roosevelt to testify before Congress. I am here as a concerned citizen. There's so many opportunities, and if I don't use the influence I have to help those people who need help, I think that's a terrible waste. She served as President Carter's emissary, taking high-profile trips to Latin America and Asia.

I think that I am the person closest to the president of the United States. And if I can help him in understanding the countries of the world, then that's what I intend to do. Often more popular than the president himself, she was his advocate-in-chief. I'm proud of Jimmy Carter and the job he's doing, and he is without a doubt the best person in our country to see us through these times. But faced with a troubled economy and a painful hostage crisis, Carter lost to Ronald Reagan in 1980, and the Carters returned to Plains. They founded the Carter Center and together began a remarkable decades-long post-presidency devoted to human rights, international diplomacy, eradicating disease, and year after year building low-income housing with Habitat for Humanity. In 1999, they were awarded the Presidential Medal

of Freedom. I think now is one of the happiest times of my life. There is life after the White House. Through it all, she remained her husband's greatest champion. It irritates me when people say he's a good former president. He was a good president. I don't worry about his place in history. As for her own place in history, Rosalynn Carter was characteristically modest. I just hope people think I did the best I could. All right, joining us now, NBC News chief foreign affairs correspondent and host of Andrea Mitchell reports, Andrea Mitchell, Rogers Chair in the American Presidency at Vanderbilt University, historian John Meacham, and award-winning historian, columnist, and writer, Jonathan Alter.

He is the author of the book, His Very Best, Jimmy Carter, A Life. And, of course, that would apply to Jonathan, to Rosalind Carter, would it not? She gave her very best at all times. And, you know, it was it was actually so wonderful to hear this this girl who grew up poor in rural Georgia talking about how she loved politics and how she loved being part of making the world a better place. Absolutely. This is an epic American story. You know, they were married for 77 years, but they actually met each other 96 years ago, shortly after Rosalind Carter was born. She had been delivered by Lillian Carter, Jimmy's mother, who was a nurse.

And Ms. Lillian brought her toddler around to see the new baby. This was an extraordinary partnership that I think took her into the first ranks of first ladies in the whole history of this country. And we could talk all day about her substantive accomplishments, but just to focus on one, she was the greatest champion of mental health that we've seen. And she did more than anyone to end the stigma that was attached to mental illness until really the 1970s and 80s when she got active in this issue. And there are just a number of substantive accomplishments that have been completely neglected by history and also just her personal qualities. You know, I interviewed more than 250 people for my book, and many of them had some critical things to say about Jimmy Carter.

I never heard a single word of criticism of Rosalind Carter, who had a superior political intelligence to her husband, as he was the first to admit, and also a grace that touched everyone she met. Yeah, her genteel approach, really, it masked in a way her incredible power and strength. And I think that was the secret sauce among many. I went through some old pictures and also my father's book, Power and Principle, which has his diaries from the White House that he goes through. And I'll just read. Carter once said something quite revealing, that while he

would reassess over time his view of a person and often revise it quite drastically, for Rosalynn, her first impression was decisive. It never altered. He talks about walking into an empty theater at the White House and seeing them holding hands alone in the theater, watching movies. He said, Carter also told me that every evening, the two of them would read jointly a chapter from the Bible, typical of his unending quest for self-improvement, that during the first year of the presidency, they did so in Spanish so that they could enhance their mastery of that language. And finally, Rosalyn could be as tough as she was charming and gracious. She gave the White House both grace and warmth and did so without flaunting either status or power or, as lately has been the case, wealth. For Carter, she was a tower of strength,

a source of serene affection and of good judgment. And just to give you a sense of her importance, in this book, the beginning of it has all the key players. It's called Relating to Key Players in the Top Team of the White House. And before you get to Walter Mondale, Cyrus Vance, Harold Brown is Rosalind Carter. My father was the first national security advisor to have cabinet level status. Rosalind Carter sat in on cabinet meetings. And Andrea, I mean, I'm old enough to remember that that caused quite a stir years before Hillary Clinton caused quite a stir as a first lady. Rosalind Carter being such a strong force in the president's life was I mean, it was really first time since Eleanor Roosevelt that a first lady played such a prominent role. Exactly. And she actually played a bigger role in that White House than Eleanor Roosevelt that a first lady played such a prominent role. Exactly. And she actually played a bigger role in that White House than Eleanor did because her relationship with

Jimmy Carter was so passionate, so personal, so equal in a way that Eleanor Roosevelt's never was with FDR. And we know about the problems in their marriage as well. Rosalind Carter really established the office of the First Lady. It became a budgeted office, an official office, even though other First Ladies had done many things, positive things for it. And she was such a pathbreaker. My first interview with her was actually on Labor Day, 1978. I was new to NBC.

It was my first trip to Andrews Air Force Base. I was very excited. I had been at NBC maybe a month. She was filling in for Jimmy Carter on a political trip on Labor Day, campaigning in Texas for a Democratic senator or a candidate for Senate. And so I did an interview with her for the Today Show. Exactly, you know, we taped it on Sunday night for a Monday morning Labor Day interview. And I remember how intimidated I was and how comfortable she made me.

She was so kind and so generous. And then I ended up being sort of the backup correspondent as the new kid on the block, going to Plains for Christmas, Thanksgiving and all the holidays, you know, backing up the lead correspondents, Judy Woodruff and the great late John Palmer. So we had quite a team. And I just admired her so much. She supported the Equal Rights Amendment. She was forceful. In 1977, their first year in the White House, she went on a trip, a diplomatic trip to Latin America. It was 12,000 miles, seven countries, 13 days. And she was talking to the leaders there about nuclear energy, agricultural exports, all kinds of diplomatic issues that she that was part of her remit.

I mean, she was just extraordinary. She really remarkable. She really was. And, you know, John Meacham hearing her quote in the Lester Holt package talking about how she got irritated when people said that he was a good former president. She said, well, he was a good president. And I know that she was deeply wounded, as was Jimmy Carter, by the 1980 loss. And as is often the case, it certainly was the case with Harry Truman,

the assessment of Jimmy Carter, of course, grows by the year. We look back and especially now recognize what he did. A Middle East peace, a Middle East peace breakthrough. The first really and the most significant opened relations with China changed the world, championed human rights in a way no American president had ever done, while beginning at the end of his presidency, the military ramp up that along with the championing of human rights was something that, along with Reagan, helped lead to the downfall of the Soviet Union. Historians, no doubt, will be much kinder to Jimmy Carter and, of course, Rosalind than the voters were in 1980. Yeah, and John Alter has started this conversation brilliantly in his book. One of the things that Carter's living legacy shows us is that history

and headlines do not always move in tandem. And what's important in retrospect is often controversial or ignored in real time. And I think the Carter's experience in the White House is something that should teach us that instant reflexive reactions to everything that happens every minute of every day might just be wrong in the long term. You know, as Howard Baker, who helped President Carter with the Panama Canal Treaty, much to the irritation of a lot of people in Tennessee, once said, you know, there is the possibility that the other fellow might be right. And I think to some extent that that's a legacy of the Carters. The other thing is, I think we should perhaps, there's been a lot of talk about, obviously, Mrs. Roosevelt and Mrs. Carter. I wonder, and again, John knows this better than I do. I've always thought of Mrs. Ford and Mrs. Carter in a kind of bracket, because in that tumultuous decade when the culture was changing so rapidly

in the 1970s, Mrs. Ford helps reduce the stigma with breast cancer, Mrs. Carter with mental health. There was this kind of very different and a reminder that and particularly the unfolding Ford-Carter friendship, which was a little like the Bill Clinton, George H.W. Bush one, a reminder that there has been a moment 20 minutes ago in American politics where not every political issue had to be an occasion for total war, that there could be disagreement without there being disunion. And I think that's something else to think about for a moment or two this week as she's commemorated. And Jonathan Alter, we will give you the last word here. What else should we all be keeping in mind about the life and legacy of Mrs. Carter?

Well, you know, after Rosalind Carter left the White House, she founded something called the Center for Caregiving. Now, every person in the world is either a caregiver, going to be a caregiver, or is going to need the care of a friend or relative. But the concept didn't really exist until the 1980s. And she has done a lot, not just to destigmatize mental illness, but to create an appreciation of the importance of caregiving. And then there are just a whole series of other accomplishments. She got 33 states to require vaccination for children could enter schools, which contributed greatly to public health in the United States. And I just want to end by reemphasizing John

Meacham's point that historians look at these figures in a different way than journalists do. You know, as a journalist, I wonder how popular is somebody in their own time. Historians need to look at how they changed this country and the world. And by that standard, Rosalind Carter and Jimmy Carter stack up very well. Jonathan Alter, Andrea Mitchell and John Meacham, thank you all so much for joining us this morning and helping us remember this remarkable woman. Yeah. All right. Still ahead on Morning Joe, President Biden and his team are facing calls to become more active and aggressive and highlighting the contrast between him and Donald Trump, but will it be enough to ease anxiety among Democrats?

The Washington Post's Ashley Parker joins us with her new reporting and we'll talk to Donny Deutsch to get his take on what the strategy needs to be for the campaign. Also ahead, two of the stars of the Broadway revival of the musical, Monty Python's Spamalot, will be our guest this morning. You're watching Morning Joe. We'll be right back. After President Biden's successful meeting with China's President Xi Jinping, reporters asked Biden if he still believed that Xi was a dictator. And I don't know if Biden was supposed to say yes,

because look at this reaction from Secretary of State Antony Blinken. Did you still report to President Xi as a dictator? This is a term that you used earlier this year. Well, look, he is. Oh, man. That's the same face I make when my uncle starts a story by mentioning the race of the waitress. It's actually the same. It's actually the same face I made when I heard Biden say this about LL Cool J. LLJ Cool J. By the way, that boy's got,

that man's got biceps bigger than my thighs. LLJ Cool J? I think the second J stands for Jesus. That's pretty good. All right, we can have fun. By the way, happy birthday. Happy birthday pretty good. All right. We can have fun. By the way. Happy, happy birthday. Happy birthday. Happy birthday, President Biden. Yes. I will take advantage of this day to talk about the one thing they think is wrong.

I know, because I will say that. No, seriously. I mean, you look at how old he is. And if you remember, just look back through history, like just recent history. When Warren Buffett turned 81, you remember everybody, they pulled all their money out of Berkshire Hathaway. No, I don't think so. And he turned 81 like 12 years ago. A dozen years ago. And then, oh wait, I think he said his most successful decade ever. Oh, OK. Well, there you go.

But take a look. But that's that's fine. Let's take politics. I mean, Nancy Pelosi, you know. Exactly. She's 82. She's 83. So, you know, she was really successful. She like, huh. OK. Oh, and that's fascinating. Anyhow. Well, no, Donald Trump's like he's if Donald Trump were elected next year. Well, of course, that would end democracy. But also he would be the oldest president ever elected. Yeah. And I'm a little worried about him up there. He still doesn't know who he's running against. Yeah, he sweats a lot. If you heard him, if you heard him this week, Jonathan O'Meara, if you heard him this weekend.

My gosh. I mean, it's not getting better. He thinks he's running against Barack Obama. He gets confused and rattled. You know, he talks about how Joe Biden could lead us into World War Two. Very, very dazed and confused up there sometimes. And I'm, I'm, man, I'm worried about his age. I know you are too. We, I mean, you have to be worried about his age and the fact that he's running against a president he thinks that hasn't run for office in over a decade. Yeah. Last time Barack Obama was in the ballot was 2012, of course. And I checked the history books. World War II happened and we won. So good news there. We won. Good.

Yeah, it was pretty exciting. That was pretty exciting stuff. I also, Lamir, I believe you can add a decade for every indictment due to stress. So I have to do the math. To that, there have been people in Trump's world who acknowledge freely, but privately, that Trump is feeling the pressure of all of these indictments. And who, how could blame him? There are 90, there are four indictments and 91 counts.

So that's fairly understandable. And that's not even counting the New York civil case, which threatens his fortune. And we have certainly seen his behavior grow more erratic of late. Finally, some of his Republican rivals have highlighted it. Governor DeSantis in particular. But yes, at least to this point, polling shows, and maybe this will change, but at least at this moment in time, at this moment in time, voters don't seem as concerned about Trump's age as Biden's. Well, I mean, they will when he actually is out on the campaign trail.

We haven't heard from him. That's a good point, Joe. That's what Biden people point a lot, is that most voters haven't really listened to Donald Trump in a long time. And it might not be until next year. But when they start doing so again, they'll have the same concerns. Man, I'm very concerned. And, you know, he's got to be very, very nervous and upset because at his advanced age, you get 91 counts against you at that advanced stage. You also have civil lawsuits.

One, just one of those counts at his advanced stage is a life sentence. Exactly. So I think I think we should be understanding that he gets so confused and doddering up on stage and keeps thinking he's running against a guy that hasn't run for president in 11 years. And it's not even the federal indictments. There's the civil suit in New York, which has totally paralyzed his business and could end it forever. There's that. By the way, Ashley Parker is going to join us with the latest on one of these many cases against the current president has been in two active war zones in the past year, including Kyiv. And Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin arrived this morning in a surprise visit to Kyiv, Ukraine.

Austin is scheduled for a series of meetings with senior Ukrainian leaders aimed at reinforcing U.S. support for the country's war effort.