Morning Joe - Morning Joe 11/22/22

Episode Date: November 22, 2022

Colorado veteran who tackled gunman at LGBTQ club describes risking his life to save his family

I wasn't thinking. I just ran over there. Got him. I got to kill this guy. He's going to kill my kid. He's going to kill my wife. He ended up killing my daughter's friend. It's the reflex, right? It's the reflex. Go. Go to the fire. Stop the action. Stop the activity. Don't let no one get hurt. I try to bring everybody back. I mean, that's what we're all there trying to do. That is one of the heroes credited with subduing the gunman in the Colorado nightclub mass shooting. We'll hear more from that combat veteran as we learn more about the victims and the investigations in just a moment. We also are following new reporting on the Georgia Senate runoff election. Donald Trump being urged to stay off the campaign trail where his handpicked candidate, Herschel Walker, is trying to unseat Democratic Senator Raphael Warnock. Will the former president listen to party leaders asking him to stay on the sidelines? Narrator, he will not stay on the sidelines. And Senator Lindsey Graham, his failed bid to avoid testifying

in the investigation into 2020 election meddling in Georgia comes to a head today when he sits before a Fulton County grand jury. We'll have the very latest. We also are watching the federal courthouse in Washington where a jury will begin deliberations in just a few hours in the sedition trial against the founder of the

Oath Keepers and his four co-defendants tied to the January 6th attack on the Capitol. Good morning. Welcome to Morning Joe. It is Tuesday, November 22nd. With us, we have former White House press secretary, now an MSNBC host, Jen Psaki, member of the New York Times editorial board, Mara Gay, and the host of Way Too Early, White House bureau chief at Politico and the author of the bestseller The Big Lie, Jonathan Lemire. Good morning to you all. Joe, the sound bite we played coming in of the United States Army veteran served in Iraq and Afghanistan was at drag show at Club Q in Colorado Springs that night when he heard the firing begin, charges at the

shooter, tackles him, takes his handgun away from him and starts beating him with it. And then the New York Times reports a drag queen came and stomped on the shooter with her high heel. Unbelievable story. Well, you heard what he said. He said, run to the sound of the gunfire, go to the action, go where you want to stop people from getting hurt. And again, you just can't help but contrast that with what Uvalde, what happened in Uvalde, what the leaders of the police department there and other law enforcement officers did there. It was just heinous. They sat and actually ran away from it.

Were afraid to go in, afraid to do anything. And here we saw, obviously, fast action stopped. Just a tragedy from being even worse with even more killed. So what an extraordinary story there. We're going to go live to Colorado in a moment. You know, Willie, I was yesterday I was reading. We have David Frum is going to be on today. I was reading. He was talking about how and I can put myself in this collection of people, how we were so out of touch after getting elected in 1994. We got elected. We had this great majority. We were just a landslide. And we went in there and we got in a bubble.

We had a contract with America, despite what Democrats said. You know, about 75 percent of Americans supported things in there. And then the investigation started and they started against Bill Clinton and they continued and they continued. And David said that that people and he was right that basically American people. Yeah, we know. We know the guy's got some problems and we know he also has some problems when it comes to ethics inside the government. We don't care. Just, you know, do your job. Talked about how we are in bubble. Members of Congress got beaten badly in 96 and did worse in 98. Bill Clinton is impeached and he leaves with what, 62, 63 percent approval rating. Right. Well, David said it's because because

we were in that bubble. That's exactly what's happening with the Republican. We can see it. Right. I mean, people that aren't inside Kevin McCarthy's bubble that aren't inside the House. Well, they can see it, but everybody can see it. But they can't. And and it's as if they ignored everything that happened a couple of Tuesday nights ago. And I know people are thinking like, oh, we're owning the libs. No, no, no. This election shows you're not owning the libs. You're owning yourself.

This harkens us all back. I know, Willie, you like me, too. To the great sushi throwing away incident of 2017 when when a certain member of Donald Trump's staff went to one of the most expensive sushi restaurants in Washington, D.C. He bought all of this expensive sushi. And as he was going out, the owner said something critical of him. So to own the lips, he threw away the sushi that he had just bought, making everybody in the restaurant die laughing. So this is what's happening. This the owning of the libs is ending up helping the libs. And my God, we've seen it over the past couple of days in Washington, D.C., coming out of a House Republican caucus that just can't seem to get out of their own way.

He really showed them, didn't he, throwing out $50 worth of sushi to make his point. And to your point, this is what Kevin McCarthy is talking about now. He's, of course, the Republican leader about to be the speaker calling for House Republicans to, quote, fulfill their constitutionally mandated oversight authority over the Biden administration. Here's exactly what McCarthy said. He wrote House Republicans will be ready on day one to exercise our Article one authority to hold the Biden administration accountable. Every congressional committee has an oversight responsibility, and we intend to finally get the answers the American people deserve. The GOP reportedly has identified 42 officials from President Biden's administration to testify next year after Republicans take control of the House of Representatives in January. Former speechwriter for George W. Bush and conservative columnist

Mark Thiessen tweeted, so voters just stopped the GOP red wave because they thought Republicans were too extreme. But as soon as they win a razor thin majority, the first thing ours announced they're doing is investigating Hunter Biden, not addressing inflation or crime or the border. Absolutely nuts, writes Mark Thiessen. To your point there, Joe, it's gonna be about Hunter Biden.

It's gonna be about the laptop. Some of the extreme members have promised impeachment hearings of Joe Biden as soon as they sit down. It begins in late January. And guess what? No plan. I mean, inflation. No idea. No plans. Let's investigate Hunter Biden's laptop crime. And even if progressives on Twitter think that people aren't talking about crime anymore, I can tell you they are because I heard two loved ones yesterday, one in New York and one in Washington, talking about like some really harrowing moments that they experienced yesterday in those two cities. People are still going to be talking about crime.

Republicans are going to be talking about Hunter Biden's laptop, health care, which Republicans haven't. Jen Psaki, you know, Republicans hated Obamacare so much that they've now gone 12, 13 years without an alternative to it. So crime still is. I don't care what people like. People are still in big cities like Washington, New York, L.A. They're still worried about crime. They're still worried about homelessness. They're still worried about people with real mental challenges on the streets for their sake and for their family's sake and for it. They're still worried about stuff like that. They're still worried about health care prices exploding. They're still worried about gas prices exploding. And the Republicans who ran to say we're the answer to this, they're doing nothing. They're saying nothing. They've got no plan. Say what you will about

my class. We had a contract with America. We said these are the 10 things we're going to do. What do they have? Their contract with Hunter Biden is we're going to investigate Hunter Biden's laptop and the hell with American gas prices, the hell with inflation, the hell with health care, the hell with crime, the hell with all of that for these Republicans in the House. They don't care. Right. Look, what's awkward, horrible for them, horrible for America here, Joe, to your point, is they didn't have any plans for any of these problems to begin with, nor did they run on any. Maybe the secret plan for inflation here is the sushi that's being thrown out. I don't know if we're keeping the analogy going from 2017.

And now they're at this point where 42 officials now think about this. Can you name can anyone on this group here we're talking to name 42 officials in the Biden administration? I may be able to, but I worked there for a year and a half. It will get to the point beyond Joe Biden, beyond Allie Mayorkas, where the American people will look up and say, there's still crime in my city. My groceries still cost too much. So does my gasoline. Why are you investigating people who were in subcabinet positions at the Interior Department I've never heard of? And that seems to be where their agenda is going, which Kevin McCarthy just doubled down on. Yeah. And, you know, it gets to a point actually where the investigations go on so long. And again, I was there from 95 to 2001. There were some things that needed to be investigated.

At one point, you know, Bill Clinton had allowed the top donor, the DNC, to sell missile technology to China. And the Pentagon was saying no. And the State Department was saying no. And everybody was saying no, right? And so you try to say, hey, we need to. And people are like, OK, yeah, is this another investigation? Great. And they completely tune you out.

And by the way, this Hunter Biden laptop stuff, they're already tuned out on that. They're already tuned out on this crazy. They can do it. Like people are going, oh, they're afraid that they can investigate Hunter. But no, I'm not. I mean, if you're a Republican, you should be afraid that they're going to waste two years and lose big in 24. But, you know, more I talked about all of these issues. They need to be talked about. Healthcare, inflation, crime. Okay, you don't think crime's a problem?

Like people like to the left or the right? Okay, fine. Let's have that debate. Homelessness. I think it was Christmas, maybe. Was it last Christmas? You wrote the most beautiful op ed about homelessness. And from from a point of view of of your faith. That's that's a discussion we should have.

That's a debate we should have. Republicans told us they were going to give us that. And they're giving us Hunter Biden's laptop. Well, thanks, Joe. It's it's extremely discouraging. Of course, it's also absurd. But, you know, this is this is the problem is that their agenda is so deeply out of touch with what the majority of the country is actually living through and dealing with. Talk about gun violence, for example. I mean, we could just go down the list. But increasingly, this agenda is so obviously tethered to this right-wing, bizarre media universe that the Republican base

is motivated by, but really nobody else, nobody else. And so in addition to the fact that you have now a clown show that's extremely irresponsible and toxic taking place, you have the absence of good government and the absence of accountability. And that's what's so incredibly frustrating. We have a lot that still needs to be investigated from the past administration as well. And so that's a concern. But all the way down the line,

I think it's very obvious that Democrats and independents and others who are still concerned about the work of good government are going to have to work overtime. And we just can't expect to see responsible government under Mr. McCarthy. It's extremely disturbing. But, you know, unfortunately, this is kind of as delivered as promised in a way. Yeah, you know, since the election, it's remarkable how many people have come up to me, mostly Republicans. But how many people have come up to me and said, you know, Joe, the only thing I want is I want good government. We didn't say it exactly that way. But as Maura was saying, we want people who are competent.

We want Republicans that can work together with Democrats. We want Democrats that can work with Republicans. We want them to get things done. It's all they want. And what a great message it would send if actually you had Republicans in the House and Democrats in the Senate and a Democratic president that actually got things done. But right now, it doesn't look like we're going in that direction. And again, look at Mark Thiessen, again, a guy who, again, this guy is a conservative's conservative.

And this is what he tweeted out. And by the way, what Mark's saying here is what so many conservatives are saying. It's what Republicans in the Senate are saying. I've talked to them. This is what they're saying to those House Republicans in their little bubble. So voters just stopped the GOP red wave because they thought Republicans were too extreme. But as soon as they win a razor thin majority, the first thing they announced that they're doing, investigating Hunter Biden, not addressing inflation or crime or the border. It's absolutely nuts.

And Jonathan, he's so right. Americans do want, you tell us tell us what you're going to do on inflation tell us what you're going to do on gas prices republicans biden's told us you don't like some of the things that he's doing okay what would you do let's have that discussion let's have the discussion even though though Joe Biden is drilling more than then there's more drilling under Joe Biden than there was under Donald Trump. Even though that's the case from from what our guest said a couple of weeks ago, you want even more. Let's have that discussion. Right. Let's have the discussion over grocery prices. Let's have the discussion over things that matter to Americans, because Republicans are too extreme on abortion. That's what the voters said. They are too extreme

on guns. That's what every poll says. 90 percent of Americans want universal background checks. They're too extreme. And this all bit by bit, piece by piece keeps adding up. They lose in 2017. They lose in 2018. They lose in 2019. They lose in 2020. They lose in 2022. They underperform radically, radically in the House where Kevin McCarthy predicted a year ago they were going to pick up 60 seats, 60 seats. And really, the only reason they ended up getting it is because because legislature legislators in New York, first of all, they don't know how to redraw maps. And secondly, you know, the governor took down five, six of the governor's underperformance because she didn't talk about crime, took down five, six of the governor's underperformance because you didn't talk about crime, took down five or six House member seats that are Democrats.

If you talk to those Democrats, don't scream at me. Talk to the Democrats who lost. They'll tell you that's the case. And yet what are they talking about? Hunter Biden's laptop like like sub-level administration officials. It's just, I mean, if you're a Republican, if you're a conservative, it's really depressing. Yeah, those Democrats in New York State will also point to the previous governor and deal that he made with Senate Republicans, allowing judges that affected the redistricting process also played a role in the Dems not

picking up a few more seats there. But Joe, to your point, last year in 2022, Republicans tried to get away with not having a plan about inflation or crime because they said, hey, we're out of power. We don't have to. It's not a responsibility. It's their problem. Well, A, that didn't work. And B, that no longer flies because Republicans do have the House, even though it's a narrow margin. They're going to have to come up with some ideas. Voters are going to want to see what their plans might be. But that is not their focus right now. We have, and it's not just on the fringes of the Republican Party. Some pretty mainstream Republicans in the House are saying this is what we need to do. We need to investigate Biden cabinet officials. We

need to investigate Hunter Biden and his laptop. We might need to even impeach some people. And no White House, to be clear, likes being investigated. It is a drain on resources and time. It's a distraction. Republicans having the House, that will stall the agenda. But they also see it as at least a possibility of using the House GOP as a political foil because the Republicans will seem so out of step and so extreme. The Democrats will look really good by comparison going into 2024. And Republicans are appealing to a smaller and smaller portion of the electorate. It's the MAGA Republicans. It's the Fox News viewers. They speak in shorthand, like the big

guy and Tony Bubalewski and things that most Americans have no idea what they're talking about. And that might play well on Truth Social and that might play well on the primetime Fox News. But those are not enough people to decide elections. We saw that just a few weeks ago. And the Republicans certainly run a risk of marginalizing themselves that much further going forward. Yeah, well, I'm not so sure it even plays straight across Fox News post-election because there are a lot of people in Fox News that are saying we need to turn. We need to turn away from Trump. We need to start figuring out how to win elections again. And Jen, one other thing, too, that again, if people are thinking, oh, they're so afraid that

the Biden administration might get impeached. No, no, not at all. I'm old enough. I've been I've seen three impeachments. I participated in one. And I can tell you, impeaching a president helps the president. It helped Bill Clinton. We sat there going, wait, how does this guy keep getting more popular? He's like popularity rate like in the 60s. Right. When we started, he was like in the 40s. You can say the same thing with Donald Trump. Donald Trump outperformed in 2020 after being impeached the first time. Even the second impeachment didn't ding his approval ratings. It really, for the most part, especially if you've got a president in the White House, it really does accrue to the benefit of the party that's that's in the White House.

I don't know why. It's just a reality. But there are enough Republicans that like can read history books or were there with me that certainly have to understand that. Mm hmm. Look, one would hope, Joe, but I think what's interesting here is the Republicans have been predicting for so long who they're going to impeach, the focus of their investigations, Hunter Biden and cabinet members.

I've talked to the White House and other officials in government. Yes, they're preparing, they're hiring staff, they're determining what their strategy is going to be. There's a lot of questions they need to answer. And to Jonathan's point, it's a massive pain in the neck to deal with this if you're in a White House, because it's a time suck. It's an energy suck. But to your point, the long game here is that where Republicans are predicting and laying

out for everybody is that this is going to be their primary agenda focus, focusing on Hunter Biden's laptop, focusing on investigating cabinet officials, many of whom we may never have heard of, and not addressing the core issues the public pays attention to. So while the Biden administration, this is a headache for them and it will be for the first half of next year, over the long term, they have a serious risk, the Republicans, of overreaching here and in many ways politically helping the White House, to your point. We're going to get back to politics in just a moment, but we want to go to Colorado Springs this morning. We know more about the victims of the deadly shooting there and the heroes who took down the gunman. Police say the

five people killed in the Saturday night attack are Kelly Loving, Daniel Aston, Derek Rump, Ashley Paw and Raymond Green Vance. Police also updated the number of people injured with 19 total victims. 17 of them were shot as of last night. 13 of those victims were still in the hospital. The district attorney in Colorado Springs says the 22-year-old man accused in the shooting is facing 10 preliminary charges, five counts of first-degree murder, five counts of bias-motivated crimes. The Department of Justice also is determining whether federal charges will be filed here. NBC News has obtained video from a previous case involving a man with the same name and age as the club shooting suspect.

He was arrested in June of last year after the man's mother called police to report he had threatened her with a bomb and other weapons. The landlord of the home shared videos from her ring camera. One of them shows the man with his mother dragging a suitcase into the house during which he can be heard telling her, quote, this is the day I die. They don't give a blank about me anymore. Clearly, end quote. A few minutes later, you see the man walk back into the home after moving his car around the block. He did not come back out of the house until hours later when he surrendered to police. The man was booked on felony kidnapping and menacing charges.

But there is no public record that prosecutors ever move forward with that case. It also appears neither police nor relatives ever tried to trigger Colorado's red flag law. Here is what the D.A. had to say about that yesterday. Colorado has very restrictive sealing laws. What that means is that if a case is filed in a courtroom in the state of Colorado and it is dismissed for any reason, whether that is because the prosecution dismisses it or the court dismisses it or the court dismisses it, it is automatically sealed. That is a change in the law that occurred back in 2019, so only

three years ago. That statute requires us to say in response to questions about it that no such record exists. So when you ask questions about specific prior instances, that will be our specific answer. But I want to give you a reason why that's the answer that we're giving. I acknowledge that it is very unsatisfying at this point. Hopefully at some point in the near future, we can share more about that. But at this stage, that's the best we can give you. The DA's office doesn't play a part in the red flag law. That would be up to a law enforcement agency. That's

why I say nobody in this group can really answer that specific question. It has to be initiated by law enforcement or a member of the public. Joining us now from Colorado Springs is NBC News correspondent Priscilla Thompson. Priscilla, good morning. What else do we know today? Good morning, Willie. Well, we heard a lot last night from the hero, the man being hailed a hero here, Rich Fierro. He is a decorated army veteran who served a total of four tours across Iraq and Afghanistan. And he spoke to reporters last night from his front yard as his daughter sat in a wheelchair on the front porch. She broke her knee trying to escape after this deadly shooting. And he told us what happened. And he described a lot of what

we've heard already. He heard the gunshots. He saw the flashes of light and he immediately dropped to the ground and pulled the person down next to him. But then Fierro says that he saw the shooter walking toward the patio and he felt a lull in the shooting. And that is when Fierro made the split second decision to get off the ground and go after the shooter. I want to play a little bit of how he described it. I grabbed him by the back of his little cheap ass armor thing and I pulled him down. The young man that was that was late he was hiding there had jumped up with me i don't know if he helped pull me pull him down or not i have no idea okay that guy did the same act amazing pull the dude down pin him against the

side and just started oh i think he went for his pistol. I don't know. Either way, I grabbed the pistol from him. And then I told the guy, move the AR, the kid in front of me. He was at his head. I said, move the AR, get the AR away from him. And the kid did it. And then I started wailing on this dude. And I'm on top of him. I'm a big dude, man.

And this guy was bigger. And I just kept wailing on him. And I told the kid in front of me, kick him in his head. Keep kicking him in his head. I'm yelling 911. Somebody call 911. And I told the kid in front of me, kick him in his head, keep kicking him in his head. I'm yelling 911, somebody call 911. And I'm beating this guy, this guy's trying to wiggle, he's trying to get his ammo, his guns. One of the performers walked by or was running by

and I told her, kick this guy, kick this guy. And she took her high heel and stuffed it in his face or his head or whatever she could hit. And Fierro says that they kept hitting the suspect until he stopped moving and until police arrived and were able to apprehend that suspect. And I asked Fierro as a veteran, how does this compare to the experiences that he has had at war? And he told me it is the same thing, except he chose to go to war. And the people in Club Q on Saturday night did not choose that. And of course, among those there, the five people who have now been identified as those

who died, including Kelly Loving, who is being described as such a caring and loving person. Daniel Aston and Derek Rump, two bartenders there who everyone said made this such a welcoming and friendly environment. Ashley Pa, who was here for a trip, a day trip, and they decided to go to Club Q. And she leaves behind her husband and also an 11-year-old daughter. And Raymond Green Vance, he is the boyfriend of Richard Fierro, the hero there, his daughter. And Fierro says that he was a good kid. And as you mentioned, we know that the shooter is still in the hospital, according to police. He has been arrested on those charges of five counts of suspicion of first degree murder

and also those bias motivated crime counts. Police say that he will be released from the hospital in the coming days and then he will appear by video, at which point the D.A. will move forward with actually filing those official charges sometime in the coming days. Willie, this is a horrifying tragedy, but without question, Richard, stop it from being something much, much worse. NBC's Priscilla Thompson reporting from Colorado Springs this morning. Priscilla, thanks so much. We'll talk to you again later. Still ahead on Morning Joe, Georgia Senate nominee Herschel Walker appears to blame his

Democratic opponent, Raphael Warnock, for a 1970s television show not being on the air anymore. We'll do our best to explain those remarks. Plus, former Secretary of State Mike Pompeo weighs in on who he believes is the world's most dangerous person. His answer might surprise you. Also ahead, a January 6th rioter who was accused of stealing House Speaker Nancy Pelosi's laptop on the day of the Capitol attack is found guilty, but not for the computer theft. We'll tell you what they got him on. And the latest from Ukraine, where residents are being warned to prepare for rolling blackouts over the winter months. We'll bring in Richard Haass for his analysis of where the war stands. You're watching Morning Joe. We'll be right back. Boy, that's a beautiful live picture just after 630 in the morning at the White House

in an interview with the news platform Semaphore. Former Secretary of State Mike Pompeo weighed in on the issues he believes will be central to any Republican running for president in 2024. Pompeo said those ideas include, quote, limited government, an expanded set of freedoms and protecting the capacity of people to practice their faith. He added, also making sure we don't teach our kids crap in schools. Pompeo went on to say, quote, I get asked, who is the most dangerous person in the world? Is it Chairman Kim? Is it Xi Jinping? The most dangerous person in the world is Randy Weingarten, the head of the American Federation of Teachers Union. It's not a close call, said Pompeo.

He continued, if you ask who's the most likely to take this republic down, it would be the teachers unions and the filth they're teaching our kids. So that's the former secretary of state saying Randy Weingarten is more dangerous than Xi Jinping, Vladimir Putin, Kim Jong-un. The list goes on. Is this another Harvard boy? Like, seriously, what? No, he's West Point. He's West Point. West Point. But didn't he go to Harvard Law School or something like that?

We'll look. Can you look it up real quick? I tell you that some of these Ivy League boys, it's like what filth do they teach them up there? It's just it's just not it's just not even serious. If you get problems with the teachers union. OK, he went to Harvard Law, I'm being told by Alex. So another Harvard boy. I just like what do they teach those people in the Ivy in those Ivy schools? It's really it's just it's what an embarrassment. And how many people that graduated from West Point, great Americans, proud Americans, noble Americans, who actually believe what General MacArthur said last time he went to West Point, talking about duty, honor, and country? Flinch. Flinch. When Mike Pompeo turns public office into a clown show,

he's saying that that Randy Weingarten is more dangerous than Vladimir Putin? You know, sometimes it's just too much. Let's bring in Richard Haass. I'm going to let Richard finish my sentences for me this morning. Richard, seriously, again, you know, yeah, this camera, Richard, right here, right here. Fifteen more years, I'll get the hang of it. 15 more years, I'll get the hang of it. Richard, would you rather talk about the World Cup? We could talk about the World Cup if you like. I want to provide some historical context to what the Secretary of State said. So let me just say, seriously, I mean, you know, I just have reverence for people that were honored enough to be able to get their education at West Point. And though I joke about Harvard boys and, you know, I'm a southern state school guy and loved, loved going to Alabama and loved going to Florida.

And a great, great thrill for me every time I go back to those two schools. And and but but I think about people that had the opportunity to get these degrees where they're able to get there and how they squander it. It's the Bible talks about throwing pearls at swine and they squander this extraordinary education at Ivy League schools and and West Point, this character shaping experience. And you have him saying that somebody running a teacher's union because he's now he's now chasing certain voters in a bubble to do well in the Republican primary, saying that she's more dangerous than Vladimir Putin, who invaded Ukraine, just indiscriminately kills children and women, mothers, grandmothers, civilians. Arkem, who targets Japan with missiles in South Korea threatens the United States with nuclear extinction. I mean, what why why can't people read the room?

Why can't he and others get serious, especially given their background? It's just it's really it's just it's sad that they're this way. It's depressing. It's their way. I've got problems with what kids are being taught in some schools. But but I've always had those problems. And a lot of Americans have. It's a constant battle. It's a constant fight.

But equating a teacher's union head to Vladimir Putin, it's just crazy. First of all, comment on that. And then why don't you tell us who the most dangerous people in the world are other than Randy Weingarten? See, I figured out what Mike Pompeo must have been doing the night before he made these comments. The only thing that explains it is that he was watching Sleeper, because if you remember, the Woody Allen character in Sleeper wakes up and says, what happened? And he found out that Albert Shanker, the head of the New York Teachers Union, set off a nuclear weapon. So clearly, Mike Pompeo is watching all the Woody Allen movies

and basically modernizes the reference to Albert Shanker with Randy Weingarten. That's the only way I can explain. I couldn't get into Harvard. I got rejected from Harvard. So I wouldn't know better, Joe. But that's my guess. That's my guess. In terms of, you know, actually, the bigger problem is not where we're teaching in school.

If I say it's what we're not teaching in school, it'd be nice if kids actually learned something about civics or learn something about the world. But we can have a conversation about that. Yeah, I got a pretty long list for the most dangerous people. I think you're right, Vladimir Putin. He has 100 times as many nuclear weapons as Kim. So I start with him probably more than anybody else. And here I would worry in this country about the people who are threatening American democracy.

And there's a long list of those. You talk about them every morning on this show. Some of us didn't even bother applying to Harvard, so don't feel too bad. Don't feel too bad. I'm almost over it. We're talking to Mara about the former secretary of state. This isn't some like podcaster who just says wild things. This is a guy who's very seriously considering running to be president of the United States and a guy who knows the most dangerous people in the world because he's met most of them as secretary of state. I mean, all jokes aside, what's happening here in real time is incredibly dark because it's yet again, I mean, forget about the politicization of American life. It's like nothing is sacred for some people. And so we can't even just leave teachers alone

at this point. We've got to bring them in as part of the fodder and the ammunition for their culture wars to help a small number of people get elected. And that's incredibly disturbing to me. You know, I mean, it is it is kind of a joke, of course. But also, you just have to think to yourself, what's behind that? It's extremely sinister. I mean, there's also just a question of why it would be that you would be a teacher this morning waking up and hearing this. I mean, what do you think? In every community across America, these are people who are deeply involved in trying to show up for young people. And now they're a target of this political game. I mean, it's just enough already. Nothing is sacred. It's demoralizing. On the other hand,

if you are Randy Weingarten, you might look at this and say, hey, thank you, because it does show the power that she has to shape young people's lives. And so maybe there's something in that, I don't know, but I just feel like I'm grasping at straws, frankly, because I'm so demoralized. And meanwhile, we have real problems. We have Xi, we have Putin, we have the January 6th cast of characters who have largely yet to be held accountable. And we're sitting here talking about whether or not teachers now or the teachers union are the biggest threat on the world stage. So when does it get serious? I don't know.

Well, and, you know, Jen Psaki, the problem is for Andy Weingarten. Just think about the hate that Mike Pompeo has now stirred up against her. Think about the fact we're going to be reporting later this morning that election officials in Arizona have gone into hiding at undisclosed locations because of the lie spread by Republicans, by Republicans, by Mike Pompeo's party by Republicans, the lie spread about other Republican election officials, the head of Maricopa County's election outfit, a lifelong Republican votes for Republicans nonstop in hiding this morning because of the lie spread. And I get a feeling that threats against Randy Weingarten are going to go up now. Mika and I know kind of know something about how this works. And Mike Pompeo did it.

For what? Why not run a serious campaign? Why not actually speak to the real concerns that Americans have instead of playing? Again, we go back into that little bubble. Right. I mean, Randy Weingarten is a pretty tough cookie. But to your point, this type of attack, this type of, you know, verbal diarrhea, whatever it was out there by Mike Pompeo, this will spark people in the right wing who are out there in the country, may not be elected, who think, oh, Randy Weingarten is now our target. This is how it goes. But to Willie's point, Joe, it's a little bizarre.

Whether people like or don't like what Mike Pompeo did as secretary of state, he was the secretary of state. He could be out there talking about how it's scary that Iranian leaders are reportedly providing drones to the Russians. He could talk about Kim Jong-un and how crazy it is that he's so crazy. He could be doubling down on his qualifications. And instead, he is putting a target on the back of somebody leading a teacher's union. And that alone tells you why he's probably not qualified to be president.

Many other reasons, too. And again, number one in his class at West Point, CIA director, secretary of state. So he knows better. But here we go again. Let's turn to the war in Ukraine. After weeks of relentless airstrikes by Russia, Ukrainians are being told not to brace for a long, grim winter. Energy officials say rolling blackouts may continue through March, and residents are being urged to stock up on warm clothes and blankets. Ukrainian President

Zelensky says Russian missile strikes have damaged more than 50 percent now of the country's energy facilities. According to the World Health Organization, millions could face a life threatening winter in Ukraine. So, Richard, talk about serious matters. Here we are now turning into winter. We've seen our reporters on the ground in Kiev. The snow is already falling. People are bundled up. They don't have heat.

They're trying to figure out how they're going to make it through a long winter. What does that mean for this war? What does it mean for the way that Vladimir Putin's thinking about the next four or five months? This is Vladimir Putin's strategy. It's basically what he tried in Syria, what he used to essentially succeeded at in Syria. I've described it as a lepoization of a country. He can't win on the battlefield. He's now, though, in positions that will be more difficult to dislodge Russian forces from. They still control close to 20 percent of the country. They're in slightly more defensive, concentrated positions. It'll be very hard even after winter for Ukraine to dislodge them anytime soon, if ever. And what you see, again, is this war against the civilian

population, against electricity, against energy, against just homes, to make it grim. The whole idea is to break the will of the Ukrainian people, to make them essentially say this game isn't worth the candle. That is Vladimir Putin's strategy, full stop. It's almost that simple. It's not going to work. I think I'm confident Ukraine will get through this winter, but it's going to be with enormous difficulty. And of course, the most simple things are suddenly going to become extraordinarily difficult in that society. So Richard, we had a real terrifying moment last week where a missile landed in Poland. There was a real fear that this was going to escalate the war. NATO and Russia could square off. And turned out, of course, it was a Ukrainian defense missile.

President Biden was in Indonesia, the G20, handling it. But how worried are you now as the war perhaps settles into a sort of a more frozen period that something like this could happen, something stray, a mistake, an error, a wayward rocket or a rogue actor could do something that could really escalate things and change the face of this conflict? Look, it's possible. Obviously, anytime a war goes on, stuff happens in either direction. I can imagine some Ukrainian operation inside Russian territory or vice versa. I can't imagine, though, purposely that Russia would take on NATO. Russia can't beat Ukraine. How in the world is it going to take on that? How does it widening the war against NATO help them? I don't see it.

I could see Ukraine at some point might want to do some operation inside Russia, for example, if missiles keep coming from Russian territory against Ukraine. There's going to be lots of pressure in Ukraine to do something to interfere. And then the question is, how would Russia react to that? So again, any time a war continues, there's a possibility of escalation. That's one of the many reasons we shouldn't get sanguine. But to me, the good thing of what happened the other day, Jonathan, actually, Ukraine accepted. The Western response was quite measured. It was a good example of Colin Powell's law that first reports are always inaccurate and incomplete. People took a moment. It was measured. They investigated. They didn't fly off and respond. So I actually took that as a good sign. The grownups were in charge in NATO and people just basically said,

let's let's not get into a very quick action reaction cycle. So I actually was somewhat heartened by that. And Richard, let's talk specifically about Poland. Poland has had, and even Poland's ambassador to the United States said, we have this reputation of being hotheads. Look at us. We were calm. And by all reports, people I talked to on the ground were saying everybody was extraordinarily measured. All the NATO leaders were extraordinarily measured. They sat, they talked. They decided, as you said, to move forward together regardless of what they did. And it ended up the report was erroneous. An AP reporter that filed it has been fired. But in real time, that could have been obviously quite a danger. Finish up on that if you want to.

I'd love you, though, also. We can get a little bit of World Cup news and foreign policy in. Iran's leadership blaming the team's drubbing yesterday, the 6-2 loss, on the protests that are distracting them, protests going on in the country. I get social media updates. I don't think American media is reporting on this enough. I think we've tried to, but we need to do more. But it seems those protests in Iran are continuing. It seems that this groundswell cannot be stopped by a regime that has been the epicenter of terrorism since 1979. Now, you're right, Joe. It may actually be the most underreported story in the world and the least appreciated story in the world. For good reason, we're focused on Russia and Ukraine,

but that's actually been heavily reported. I think we've got the gist of that. And we're also obviously looking at what's going on in China, possibilities of Taiwan. What's going on in Iran, though? You've got three things going on. One of these protests have gained a degree of traction that most people dismiss. This is quite extraordinary. This is the biggest challenge to the Islamic revolution since 1979, since they took power through a series of protests not fundamentally unlike this one. The critical question will be, will there be a day

when the security forces won't turn on the people, but will turn on other security forces or join the people? That's one thing. Two, you've got a potential succession crisis at the top. And then thirdly, every day Iran is getting closer to nuclear weapons. It's quiet, but they're doing it. The IAEA is having real difficulty, but they are now almost slicing it, getting closer and closer and closer. And I think it's getting very close to where Israel or Saudi Arabia or the United States are going to have to say, is Iran now getting to a point that is truly unacceptable? And it's let me throw out the possibility that the regime might not mind that. They might like the idea of foreign military intervention at some point, because that would help them change the face of what's going on. And they could say, you all in Iran have to rally around the flag against these foreign invaders. So I would just

watch this space. I really do think it might be the biggest crisis in the first half of 2023, more than Ukraine, more than Taiwan. I would actually watch this space closely. It really does seem like the regime is on a collision course. And Willie, we should note the Iranian players on the Iranian football team did not sing the national anthem at great risk to themselves. So you can also say that about other Iranian athletes who have just proven to be true heroes. I've always felt for these Iranian players, playing for a regime that they disagreed with so strongly. They're a good football team.

But we've seen this throughout society. Everything from the most elite athletes on the biggest stage, biggest world stage, to middle school girls rising up and speaking out against Iranian leaders when they come to speak to them. It's the Iranian people really showing some remarkable courage, particularly the young people. It is extraordinary to watch. I mean, as you say, Joe, watching that video yesterday, there are a billion people watching that. That is an act of courage when you stand there and will not sing the national anthem of your country in an act of protest. And as you say, to see young women removing their headscarves and being beaten for it, there is a lot of courage on display in Iran right now. Richard Haass, thanks so much. We'll see you again soon. Coming up next here, hospitals across the country are facing a triple threat as we move into the holiday season, COVID, RSV,

and the flu. We will talk to NBC News medical contributor, our friend Dr. Vin Gupta, about each of these viruses. That's next on Morning Joe. Oh, how beautiful is that? What a city. Coming up just before the top of the hour, 6.56 in the morning in New York. Joe, I can't believe I'm about to say what I'm about to say. Say it, Willie. Should I just say it? Should I just say it? You got to go there and walk through that door. Tomorrow morning on our show, on Morning Joe, we've been here for 15 years and it finally happened. Howard Stern will be our guest tomorrow morning. In all his years of broadcasting, he's always wanted to interview Bruce Springsteen.

As you may have heard a couple of weeks ago, it finally happened. It was extraordinary. It was two and a half hours of music and life. And Howard will join us tomorrow morning to talk about that conversation, which was so good. They're now putting it up on HBO in its entirety as a special production. Boy, Joe, I've been listening to Howard. I grew up in New Jersey for 35 years, I guess, something like that. So this is a huge thrill.

I get a chance to talk to him tomorrow. Just just a huge thrill. You know, Howard had early in his career, had his shtick, did it very well. You saw it in the movie, his movie. But something really started happening over the past five, 10 years. He became an extraordinary interviewer of musicians, especially. And I would sit and listen to him talk to, like, for instance, Billy Joel and just be transfixed what he was able to pull out of these musicians that liked him genuinely. He knew what he was talking about, unlike so many interviewers. And and it's just it's it's always been such a pleasure to listen to Howard when when he's interviewing musicians. And this, again, it's what he's always wanted to do after 15 years. He, you know, well, our 15 years, actually.

But after all this time, he's finally got to interview the boss. It's going to be extraordinary. Yeah, it's you know, for for those of us who love Springsteen and love Howard, this was like to me, it was his best interview. And boy, has he done a lot of them, always incredibly well prepared. And there's that implicit agreement for a guest. When you walk into that studio, it's all on the table when you're talking to Howard. So they're all willing to go there. And Bruce was the perfect example of that. He went deep. He said things I hadn't heard him say before.

He explained the stories behind the songs. It was a little bit like his Broadway show. So Howard has done just about every interview. You could hear it in his tone during the interview. And then the next day talking about it, it was just a thrill for him. He couldn't believe he got the chance to do it. Well, it was a thrill for him. And it's going to be a real thrill for us to have him on talking and to have him talking, obviously, about a topic we all love, too, the boss. It's going to be just unbelievable. And Howard will be here tomorrow morning. You won't want to miss that. Let's turn back to the news this morning.

As we just come up on the top of the hour here, hospitals across the country are being pushed to the brink. They're becoming overwhelmed as they deal with an influx in patients with COVID, the flu and RSV, along with persistent staffing shortages. Some hospitals have had to set up overflow tents and activate transfer agreements with nearby facilities to manage the surge in patients. The Washington Post notes of the staffing issues, quote, more than half a million people in the health care and social services sector quit their positions in September, evidence in part of burnout associated with the coronavirus pandemic. And the American Medical Association says one in

five doctors plan on leaving the field within two years. Let's bring in NBC News medical contributor Dr. Vin Gupta. Dr. Gupta, it is so great to see you always. We appreciate you being here and up early with us. Boy, these are medical professionals who are the heroes of the pandemic, have been through so much over the last nearly three years now, and being asked again to deal with these extraordinary conditions, adding flu and RSV now into the equation. How bad is it in hospitals across the country? Willie, good morning. Great to see you. Yeah, I'm sitting in an adult ICU right now here in Seattle, not far from our children's hospitals. And I'll say that in children's hospitals,

it's a lot worse. Adult hospital capacity right now isn't quite as bad as it was back in the winter of 2020, 2021. But it's important for your viewers to understand that slack in the system in children's hospitals is, by definition, always pretty low. One-tenth the hospital capacity for kids versus adults. Really, what we're seeing across the country with children's hospitals is that there isn't any slack in the system. It's completely packed. And there are a lot of reasons for that. But basically, across the country, since the beginning of the pandemic, we've seen a 20% decline in the amount of pediatric beds for a variety of reasons. But basically, pediatric beds have been closing preferentially. And now we're seeing this

RSV surge that this is really coming to a head. So Dr. Gupta, my actually my son got sick a couple weeks ago, went in and they just immediately tested him for all three of those that you've just laid out. So explain if you can a little bit RSV, which I think is probably new to a lot of people and how serious that can be. So this is another contagious respiratory virus.

It can cause the common colds, Willie, and folks like you and I, and most adults, it will just cause the common cold. If Willie, and folks like you and I, and most adults, it will just cause the common cold. If you're high risk, medically high risk, over 65, or if you have a really high risk medical condition like cancer, it can land you in the hospital with severe pneumonia. Critically, for parents out there with young babies, what this can do is, and the difference between this flu and COVID, they're great mimickers of each other. RSV can cause high-pitched wheezing. So if you put your ear next to your baby, if there's, say, sniffling, and you hear some high-pitched wheezing, almost, I can't say it's a guarantee,

but high likelihood RSV. If you see their nostrils flaring out, another key sign. Chest retractions, their rib literally sucking in, another sign potentially that they're dealing with RSV. Really, flu, again, none of these things are definitive 100% signs of a diagnosis, but flu, high fevers, COVID often causes non-pulmonary symptoms, GI issues, and brain fog. So a quick toolkit, frankly, to understand what might be actually happening since we don't have at-home tests for RSV, COVID and flu at the same time. So Dr. Gupta, now we're just at the beginning, really, if you look at it, of the holiday season, people are going to be gathering again at Thanksgiving and coming up through Hanukkah and Christmas and all the other holidays that come with it. So what should people know? Do you

want them to get their flu shot now? Is it too late to get your flu shot? Should they get that COVID booster? What's a good way to prepare for what's ahead here through the winter? Perfect time to get your additional shot here. If you're medically high risk, remember to ask your medical provider for the quadrivalent flu shot. Ask them for the stronger flu shot. If you don't remember the word quadrivalent flu shot. Ask them for the stronger flu shot, if you don't remember the word quadrivalent. Stronger flu shot for medically high risk. Still within the window.

And it's still okay to space out the booster shot and the flu shot. You can get them at the same time. No increase in adverse reactions. That's a common question we get. Willie, something critical here that we don't talk enough about in the medical profession,

my opinion, if you're medically higher risk and you're traveling and you're worried, maybe you'll test positive for COVID or say flu, something you should do, talk to your medical provider, ask them if they'll place a standing prescription for Tamiflu or Paxlovid. Tamiflu treats flu fairly well. Paxlovid treats COVID fairly well if started early. Standing prescriptions are key. So then you already have it in the pharmacy. You just have to go fill it. So you don't have to go racing around if you test positive and are feeling ill. So standing orders, something if you're medically high risk, I encourage all of

your viewers to do. And that's really important. Lastly, Willie, I'll just say, this RSV surge is necessitating us to develop at-home tests for more things than just COVID. Because coughing can mean more than just COVID. So COVID, flu, RSV, tests that can do tests for all three in the at-home environment, really critical for the future. Dr. Vin Gupta, great advice

and always appreciate you stopping on another busy day for you. Thanks so much. Good to see you.