Morning Joe - Morning Joe 1/17/24

Episode Date: January 17, 2024

Trump expected to attend second day of E. Jean Carroll defamation damages trial

I come here. I meet with great groups in New Hampshire. I then get on a plane late at night when it's snowing and freezing out. Wonderful. And the pilots say, sir, it's going to be tough. And I get there early in the morning. I go to a Biden witch hunt. And then I come here in the afternoon and I stop and we make speeches and we get your votes and all that stuff. But nobody's ever had to do this before. Well, you know, people didn't do it before because usually candidates who judges say are rapists don't usually get this far. But what we found in Iowa a couple of nights ago was, well, Iowa Republicans that voted those 14 percent, they like their presidential candidates that are called rapists

by judges and they like their presidential candidates that steal nuclear secrets and repeatedly defame women. And they like their presidential candidates that repeatedly defame women. Now, you know, Willie, I'm new to this political thing. Yes. Let me help you through this. You actually brushed me off yesterday when I fell off the turnip truck. And I thank you that right in front of an icy patch of snow outside of 30 Rock. He dusted me off. That was nice of him. I grabbed the turnip as we were leaving and going up into 30 Rock.

And I was chewing on it. And he said, well, here's the deal. And he explained politics to me. That's good. You need to hear it. From the kids. I still don't get it, though. Like, this guy's complaining because, you know, as the judge said, under any definition of rape, he raped a woman.

Right. And then decided to defame her again. He just didn't have to be in court today. And so that's why he's going to court. That's not a Biden witch hunt. That's that's Donald Trump's past finally catching up with him. But again, we can keep going over those results. But people in Iowa said not only do they like their candidates, the judges say raped women. They're more likely to vote for their candidates if judges say they raped women. I wish we were joking.

They stole nuclear secrets and they they gave away plans. Let let people on their own campaign. It's actually not a joke. Here, top secret plans on America's plans to invade Iran. That's that's Iowa. Nice, baby. That's Iowa. Nice is defined in twenty twenty four. You're starting to get a handle on this politics thing, Joe. That was a good lecture in the elevator coming upstairs the other day. Yeah, you're right. I mean, when he complains about being put through all of this, remember his whole pitch is that he's a martyr.

This is all being imposed on him. He's happy to be indicted for his people, sort of making an allusion to the fact that he might be a religious figure in some way. More on that in just a moment. But there's an easy way to avoid having to shuttle between rallies and courtrooms, which is exactly what the judge reiterated yesterday. Do not commit rape. Do not take classified documents to your beach club and wave them around your office to anyone who will listen. Do not attempt a coup to overturn the United States government to change an election. Do not call the secretary of state in Georgia and ask him to find a bunch of votes so that election can be flipped. This isn't happening to him. These are things he is alleged to have done. And that's why he's having to shuttle back and forth. By the way, it's because voluntarily he does not have to be in the courtroom in New York. He's not. He's going through this as part of his act of martyrdom.

Well, it's a campaign stop for him. Actually, he does better in courtrooms than he does hobbling onto stages and saying really stupid things. It's the courtrooms that feed into fake hate that actually fuels. We've seen that actually fuel support because Republicans, again, in 2024, they like guys that like break the law and rape women, according to according to judges in New York. And then, as you say, to fame them. But did you hear Willie just tick down those one, two, three? Yeah, he does. And that's why I'm saying I appreciate him helping. Two reasons why he doesn't have to be in court. I mean, number one, he doesn't have to be there. It's actually not required. But number two, after being found liable of defamation and sexual abuse, which the judge actually says was rape, he then goes on to defame the woman again. I mean, he just can't stop himself.

And it's going to cost him a lot of money to do that. He's still doing it. Anyhow, along with Joe, Willie and me, we have the host of Way Too Early, White House Bureau Chief of Politico, Jonathan Lemire, former White House Director of Communications for President Obama, Jen Palmieri. She's co-host of the MSNBC podcast, How to Win 2024 with Claire and senior political columnist for Politico, Jonathan Martin is with us this morning. So while we're at it, Willie mentioned that he's sort of like making himself a religious figure. Did you know he's making himself a religion? Join me up for that call.

I'm there. I've already given money to many levels. I have, too. But did you see the ad from the Lincoln Project? Yes. And I've got to say, I've got to say, they just totally set themselves up for this. You know, Willie, it's kind of like if you got Nolan Ryan on the mound and there's a batter who keeps toying with Nolan Ryan. He keeps stepping out of the box right when Ryan's ready to deliver. Pedro Martinez did this, and everything. Does it about three or four times. You just get that

look that you're setting yourself up. No one's going to put one in your back. Well, I saw this Trump take on the old classic Paul Harvey thing. Guy, you know, made a man. Here, when Donald Trump did that, I looked at it and everybody's like, oh, this is so, oh, it's the worst thing ever. And I just shook my head and I said, they're so stupid. They really are so stupid.

They're going to play for like 3% here, basically claiming he's the second coming of Jesus. And all they're doing is setting themselves up for a blistering parody of this. And sure enough, Nolan Ryan, he wound up really hard, put about one hundred and one mile an hour fastball right in the Trump campaign's back. And then to extend your metaphor, Joe, goes in the guy's back and it's Robin Ventura. He charges the mound and Nolan Ryan still puts him in a headlock and just continues to continues to pummel him a little deep on the reference. You can look that up. But let's watch. How would you like to be a good baseball player and still be known for having a 40-year-old Nolan Ryan pound you when you came out to the mound?

Yeah, Nolan put one on him that day. All right, so here's the ad. This is from the Lincoln Project, a group many of you are familiar with. In response to a video shared by former President Trump, which declares, yes, God made Trump, suggesting he's been put on Earth to be some kind of a savior for the country. So the new ad from the Lincoln Project is a spoof of that message. Here it is. And on the eighth day, God looked down on his planned paradise and said, I need a man to test the will and goodness of a free people. So God made a dictator. God said, I need a man who

failed in everything but theft and broken promises to live in a golden palace and convince the poor he serves their needs. So God made a dictator. God said, I need a wicked man to lead the common folk with hatred and fear. So God made a dictator. God said, I need a corrupt man who is above the law and immune from justice. So God made a dictator. God said, I need a man who will use violence to seize power. So God made a dictator. God said, I need a man whose followers will call black white, call evil good, and call criminals hostages. So God made a dictator. God said, I need his political party to obey without question, and the press fear his wrath. So God made a dictator. God said, I need a cruel man who uses his power and position

to punish and harm his opposition. So God made a dictator. God said, I need a man who breaks the faith of even his most godly followers and leads them to idolatry. Place him above me. So God made a dictator. And then God said, I sent this man to test you, and until you cast him down, you have failed.

So God made a dictator. You know, Jen, it is we again, we just see the Trump campaign always playing small ball, always playing for their most extreme, setting up the whole he's he is he is a godlike figure. He is the second coming of Jesus. And, you know, maybe that plays for the 13 percent of Republicans that voted in Iowa. But the rest of America is like, oh, come on, man. Just tell me the economy is going to be better and inflation is going down and the border is going to be taken care of over the next four years. And just just stop all of this chaos and this godlike cult BS.

But they can't do it. I mean, you know, if they campaign on the economy, if they campaign on basic stuff, they. They could actually be in a better position because polls don't matter right now. They just don't matter. But the more I say it time and again, Dan McLaughlin said it at the New Republic. There's a reason that when people talk about Biden, Republicans win. When people talk about Trump, Democrats win and Trump can't help himself. And he sets himself up for that Nolan Ryan fastball right in the back. I don't know about the I didn't know about the Robin Ventura reference. OK, football is more my thing than baseball.

The OK, so first of all, that I had not seen the Lincoln Project ad. And what's so good about it is not only does it debunk the Messiah ad, but it puts into context, which is so hard to do because Trump does and says crazy things all the time and outrageous things and things that are a threat to democracy all the time. But that thing does a great job of putting it all into context of how historically what what the U.S. is dealing with, because we've never seen it before. We've never experienced it. We're like able to internalize it and treat it like it's normal and show what the real put that context into, put that threat into into context. The thing that I'm wondering about with him going, you know, I mean, come on, man. First of all, as you know, Iowa, not that big of a win. I'm not sure how much like in real terms, how many more votes he got in 24 than he got in 16 because a few people caucused.

But to go from there instead of your rally in New Hampshire to your sexual assault trial in New York City, if things don't go well for him in New Hampshire, all of a sudden this whole campaign centerpiece of making the courthouse his communication strategy could look like a mistake. If he doesn't do great in New Hampshire, if Nikki Haley catches up to him, Jay Mars got really interesting things to say about that. Then all of a sudden that strategy could look weak. He doesn't handle losses well. That part of it could, you know, that part could fall apart. Things could catch up to him even sooner.

So, Jonathan Martin, Joe cited an important number a little while ago. 14 percent, 14 percent of Republicans showed up in Iowa to caucus on Monday night. 14 percent. Not a great turnout. And 51 percent of them voted for Donald Trump. And so there are about 700,000 Republicans in the state of Iowa. Just over 100,000 of them showed up. Yes, it was cold, but that doesn't account for that huge gap in turnout.

So what do you read into that, number one? And number two, how does this spin now into New Hampshire? Well, I think the big takeaway is that there's obviously less enthusiasm and a race that is widely seen as a foregone conclusion. You know, the voters out there are pretty sophisticated. And if they're being barraged for months accurately with reporting that this is not a real race, then they're not going to show up. Right. The other big thing to Willie is I think a lot of the Republicans from 2016 aren't Republicans anymore, whether that's Iowa or anywhere else. And look no further than the biggest county in the state, Polk County around Des Moines, and look at the collapse and turnout from 2016 to Monday. That tells you a lot about

the realignment of the party and the folks who have simply left the GOP. I think that combined, Willie, with the entrance poll, which showed that 30 percent of people believed that felonies would be disqualifying was the most ominous news for Trump. Those suburbanites who are gone, number one, and then the folks who are still in the party or at least are willing to participate, saying they're not going to vote for a felon on Election Day. That, to me, was the biggest takeaway from Iowa. Hey, Jay Mark, do you know what you call 14 percent of registered Republicans in Iowa? Do you know what you call that? A caucus in a phone booth?

You call that a busy Friday night at the Red Bar in Grayton Beach. I wouldn't. A little 30-A reference. So Jonathan O'Meara. Get in line. That is going deep. Take a number. Have you been up all night?

No, man, that's some 30-A stuff right there that only J. Martin and I might understand. No, but it feels like it. So, Jonathan Amir, Jay Martin and I need to take you to the Red Bar at some point. Happy to go. Burned down, they rebuilt it. It's maybe the best

place in America in Great Beach. So, this God thing that Donald Trump is pushing, right? It plays for the cult. But you don't win in Wisconsin and Michigan and Pennsylvania in Georgia playing to the cult. And he's got Ben Carson out there, you know, comparing him to the second coming of Jesus, too. Like it just it did.

Do we do we, Alex, do we have that Ben Carson thing? Oh, my gosh. Where it just. The biblical King David. Compared him to King David, a man after God's own heart. Play it. Well, you know, you think about the Bible and King David. Most of those people probably, if they were alive back in

those days, would have said, oh, what a horrible guy. You know, the episode with Bathsheba and some of the other things that he did. And yet he was a man after God's own heart. God uses different people for different times. You need somebody with a Manhattan business type of personality to deal with the administrative state. You know, there are some real wolves in that Manhattan business environment. And to succeed in that, you don't just kind of be a flowery, nice person necessarily. That doesn't mean he can't be. I've seen him.

When he's not being attacked, he's a wonderful person. Everybody, I think, would love him. But just to be clear, you're comparing him to King David? Right. The volume is very low. OK, I'm sorry. You are, just to put it off for the record, you're comparing him to King David. And that worked out well for King David. and this is another King David, right? I don't know about him, King, but certainly he has some policies that are very worthwhile. And the other thing, though, that must be mentioned,

if the left is allowed to use the DOJ to hurt him and to eliminate him from the process, then that's when we lose democracy. See, this is why this is this is framer frame. This is a little bit of a shift, a little bit of a shift. He goes he goes from Donald Trump is like King David, a man after God's own heart. Did Neil Cavuto say, OK, so you compare him to King David? He has some good policies. You compare him to King David?

He has some good policies. Is that what you do? And then he goes, well, you know, his policies on quantitative easing are fascinating. He kind of went all the way from Old Testament man after God's heart to I like some of his policies. You know, maybe that's the perfect interview. And the clip that we showed before. Exactly. Jonathan will be here to show that this Donald Trump is Jesus shit.

Doesn't work. Oh, Joe, come on. Ben Carson remains a unique surrogate in the political world right now. I think we can say. Generous. Yeah, I'm trying to be. I have to clean up what just happened there. Thank you.

Yeah, I mean, Carson, I mean, King David, look, he was really strong. He was really opposed to the weaponization of government. We know that. Yeah, he's so, so Carson's right about that. I mean, but no, but to the larger point, one thing that we've sort of, a truism about Trump that kind of gets lost every so often is as we focus on his base. That base stays with him. He absolutely has a very high floor for politicians. He also has a very low ceiling. There's only so far his support can go. He's not going to win over. These arguments

right here are not going to win over those suburban voters of Milwaukee, of Atlanta, of Philadelphia. They're not going to be into him being compared to the almighty, I would guess. This is someone who is facing a series of criminal trials, who will be in court later today as a defamation suit connected to a sexual assault case. This is someone who fueled an insurrection. This is someone who the Biden campaign is missing no opportunity. It took them a while to get there, but they're missing no opportunity to paint as extreme and as dangerous to the very fabric of the nation. And someone being that calling himself the chosen one, as Donald Trump has done, and also calls himself the retribution, that's a pretty scary

combination for a lot of voters. So Trump's base is going to be there. The Democrats are going to have to get their own base out. That's where they're concerned right now. But none of this, as that as that Lincoln Project ad really does a good job highlighting, none of this is going to win Trump over. Any of those sort of swing voters that he won in 16, lost in 20, they're not going to come back if this is the language his campaign employs so jay mark given what we saw in iowa given the fact that it was only 14 percent of republicans who showed up evangelicals though did overwhelmingly go for donald trump apparently some of them are buying this argument that he is the chosen one but look

ahead for us to new hampshire nikki haley is making the pitch that she got the ticket out of Iowa somehow, even though she came in third place. Ron DeSantis is effectively skipping New Hampshire where he's not polling well and looking at South Carolina. What are the next week and then the couple of weeks after look like here? I think that you have to separate these next two contests because they really are fundamentally different races and they go to the heart of Donald Trump's strength. The fact is, Willie, that New Hampshire does not look like the rest of the Republican primary because it doesn't look like today's Republican Party. All right. It's going to be full of moderate voters, folks who are unaffiliated voters can participate much more secular and also a lot more educated and upscale. To borrow a recent primary, this reminds me of 2000, where McCain got a brief reprieve in New Hampshire, precisely because of those kinds of voters. But Willie, once you're back to Republicans

deciding the Republican nominating process, that's going to be Nikki Haley's challenge. And I think that's the challenge she has in South Carolina is that once you're back to talking about Republicans and more conservative ones and more blue collar ones at that, that's Trump's base. And I think it's hard for her to to find a path beyond New Hampshire. Really at his best when he's been up all night at the red bar, senior political columnist for Politico, Jonathan Martin. Thanks, guys. Keep that look. I like it. I like it. Coming up in just one minute. One minute.

Writer E. Jean Carroll is expected to take the stand today in her second defamation trial against Donald Trump. We'll be joined by legal analyst Lisa Rubin, who was in the courtroom for opening arguments. And we'll be back again today. Morning, Joe. Back in 60 seconds. You really need to clean up your act here, OK? The kids that are watching. OK, they're eating their cereal.

All right. 22 past the hour. 22 past the hour. We're on. I'm having to take him to see Thomas in the tank engine. Former president still watch Thomas. Thomas in the tank engine that Thomas do they still watch Thomas? John says yes. John says yes. Yeah. My kids have aged out of it now, but they were really into Thomas. Thomas, the show, the toys. We still have a set around the house somewhere that my wife and I are trying to get rid of, but we still have it.

I like that. Well, great, I'll buy it. I actually hear a lot of parents saying, I want to watch Morning Joe, but I have to watch Thomas. Really? Yeah. Well, you know that? It used to be SpongeBob. Yeah. We used to go, you know. Great show.

Former President Trump is expected to be in a New York federal courtroom again this morning to attend the second day of the defamation damages trial involving writer E. Jean Carroll. Again, he's in he's in court again. Well, he likes to do it for his campaign. He doesn't have to be there, but it gives him that juice to drum up hate from his face. Got to go to go in there and say, I'm a victim, I'm a victim. Kind of like you lost another submarine. I'm a victim of defaming a woman again. Trump was in court yesterday for jury selection, but left before opening statements.

He has already been found liable for defaming Carol in 2019 while he was president for mocking her sexual assault claim against him, which he was found liable for. In this trial, jurors will be asked to figure out how much money Trump will have to pay in damages. Harrell's team is asking for at least $10 million. She is expected to testify today. Willie? Join us now, former litigator, MSNBC legal analyst Lisa Rubin, who's been covering

this so very closely for us. So, Lisa, remind our viewers, as Miki just said, this is the penalty phase that the judge has already determined, right? The judge has already determined liability. And in the last trial, Trump was fined five million dollars for both sexually assaulting E. Jean Carroll and for some statements he made about her after he was president in October of 2022. Think about this trial as sort of a messy defamation sandwich. If the last trial was the filling, this is the bread. This addresses statements that Trump made while he was president in June of 2019.

In addition, E. Jean Carroll's lawyers are seeking punitive damages for Trump's continued statements about her after last May's verdict, even including up to yesterday when he, Truth Social, posted about her as many as 22 times in the lead up to the opening of yesterday's trial. 22 times in a day in the hours leading up to his defamation trial. He continued to defame E. Jean Carroll.

So yesterday there was some procedural stuff. Donald Trump's attorneys tried to get the trial delayed again. The judge says, no there was some procedural stuff. Donald Trump's attorneys try to get the trial delayed again. The judge says, no, that's not happening. Got into jury selection. That's right. So he was there for that, but then left. Is that right? That's right. Jury selection took us all the way through a lunch break and a delayed lunch break at around 2 p.m. When we came back from that break, Donald Trump was nowhere to be found, but he stayed for the entirety of jury selection. And the way that this particular judge, Willie Luke Kaplan, does his jury selection is by asking

a series of questions to prospective jurors. And if their answer is yes, they need to stand up and in some cases explain. And former President Trump was very much engaged in that process, oftentimes turning around in his seat to look at the prospective jurors as they were answering. Some cases he nodded in assent. Other times he shook his head vigorously. There was a woman who was a prospective juror, for example, who had volunteered for the Biden campaign as a phone banker. You can imagine former President Trump was not enamored with her. So he has said that he'll be back in court today, meaning he'll be listening to E. Jean Carroll as she testifies. Tell us what we

should expect to hear from her. What is that going to look like today? I think E. Jean Carroll can't testify, John, about the sexual assault. But what she can testify to is the person she was before, what her career looked like before the defamation, and what her life and her career now look like after. and particularly in the wake of his initial comments in 2019. You'll remember E. Jean Carroll published an excerpt from her memoir in which she accounted for that sexual assault in June of 2019. Within a day or five hours after that first went up on New York Magazine's website, Donald Trump was on the attack. And it's those two specific statements that E. Jean Carroll will testify in the wake of the threat started coming, the contracts were cut. Her life changed in two meaningful ways, in terms of the threats to her physical security and in terms of her ability to earn a livelihood as a writer.

E. Jean Carroll is a very distinguished writer who's written for everything from Esquire and Rolling Stone to Saturday Night Live, where she was nominated for an Emmy. This is a person who had a real career that ended in the wake of Donald Trump's defamation. And Lisa, I assume there is there a lot of precedence for I mean, there's just no precedence, even like putting aside the fact that he is the former president for this kind of trial, repeated, repeated defamation, and then for the person to be sitting there during jury selection. Well, you know, most defendants... And then also while she's testifying. So he's, you know, he is able to, you know, that's an intimidating presence, I would imagine, for jurors and for E.J. Carroll. That's absolutely true. Jen, let's start with the first question. I'm not aware

of cases in which you've got the same plaintiff and the same defendant litigating successive defamation. Usually the first damage award is enough to stem the tie. But a civil defendant has every right to participate in their trial. They have every right to be present. What's the aggravating factor here is twofold. One, the threats that have emerged to E. Jean Carroll, and two, the dimension of what the defamation is about, sexual assault. I wrote late last night about E. Jean Carroll's posture during the trial because Donald Trump was sitting in back of her. The way this courtroom is set up, the plaintiffs and defendants don't sit next to each other, but rather the plaintiff's table goes first, the defendant's table is in back. And E. Jean Carroll, knowing Donald Trump was in the

courtroom, sat ramrod straight in her seat on the edge of her seat, almost pitched forward as if to inch herself as many millimeters away from him as she could. If trauma had a seated position, that was it. So how does the ongoing tweets or true socials, how do they play into this? In other words, can't the prosecution say not only did he defame E.G. Carroll, he continues to defame E.G. Carroll. He did it 15 minutes ago before he walked into the courtroom. Is that a compelling argument against Donald Trump? Well, it's a compelling argument for punitive damages, and it's actually a factor that the jurors are entitled to consider in punitive damages. How repentant is this person or do

they continue with their behavior? Now, there are some who have suggested that the right remedy here is to seek an injunction against Donald Trump continuing to put Eugene Carroll's name in her mouth, as Ruby Freeman and Shea Moss's lawyers have done. That's not what I understand Eugene Carroll's lawyers are going to do. Rather, what they're trying to do is find a punitive damages award that really feels like a punch in the stomach to former President Trump and makes him think twice about continuing this behavior. The question is, how much is it going to take to make him shut up? That's essentially a rougher version of the question that her lawyer asked yesterday. A lot, apparently,

because he's already been punished for it and he continues to do it day in, day out. I'm sure he's doing it as we as we sit here. But the difference between five million dollars and silence, Willie, is probably a big gulf. And that's what Eugene Carroll's lawyers are trying to find out today and through the rest of the trial. He'll be back there today, as you said, a former litigator, MSNBC legal analyst Lisa Rubin. Lisa, thanks as always. Appreciate it. Mika. Thank you, Lisa. And coming up, tensions are growing in the Middle East as the U.S. targets Iranian-backed Houthi militants in Yemen for the third time in a week, raising concerns about a broader regional war. We'll tell you what new actions the Biden administration plans on taking against the group.

Morning Joe will be right back. The United States has carried out another strike against the Houthis in Yemen. Yesterday's attack destroyed four missiles that the Pentagon says posed a threat to ships traveling through the Red Sea and nearby waters. This marks the third attack since last week when the U.S. and its allies hit dozens of targets in Yemen. The White House then warned the militant group to stop attacking ships in the Red Sea or risk further action. But the Houthis have ignored that warning, continuing to fire missiles at ships, including a U.S.-owned vessel. Joining us now, President Emeritus of the Council on Foreign Relations, Richard Haass. Richard, at this point, what are the options for the administration's warnings are one thing.

What's next? There aren't a lot of good options, which is all too often the case. We can continue shooting at this or that missile site. And we have to hope that we destroy more missiles than they import from Iran. You can continue to try to interdict the missiles going there, which is what the SEALs were doing the other day. They were successful, but tragically, too, lost their lives. I think there's also the question of whether you can get the Chinese, interestingly enough, to help. This is going to slow down all sorts of shipping. It's going to raise the price of oil, potentially. China's a major importer of oil. So the question is whether there's something to be worked out diplomatically,

because it's unlikely that this would be happening without Iran's approval. And groups like the Houthis have a degree of independence, but I don't think you can exaggerate it. Yeah. Richard, what's the what's the overall strategy? You have Iran working through the Houthis, you have Iran obviously launching attacks through third parties in Iran, in Syria, all across the region. What's the what's the what's the grand strategy here? The answer is there is. What should it be? Let me ask you, what should it be? I saw that look on your face. What it might be, what it should be. Look, what we want to do is to the extent possible, settle the rest of the Middle East so we can focus on Iran. It's Iran, both itself, its nuclear program, and obviously

the half dozen or so militias that it backs, from Hamas to Hezbollah to the Houthis, what have you. What we want to do is isolate that. In order to do that, you need Israel and the Arab world working in concert. But as we've learned over the last 100 plus days, you only have a chance of doing that if you deal with the Palestinian issue, among other things. So that ought to be our strategy. And we ought to be leaning much more to try to bring the war in Gaza to an end, not to allow the war to expand to Lebanon, to get a Palestinian political process underway. Then we can get the Saudis normalized with the Israelis, and we can try to build a Palestinian political process underway, then we can get the Saudis normalized with the Israelis and we can try to build a regional coalition to isolate the Iranians and if need

be, take them on. And what have we said all along? What a fool's errand to think that you can make Middle East peace while ignoring the Palestinian crisis. A couple of articles on the front page of the paper. The New York Times talks about the scope and quality of the Gaza tunnels. All Israelis. You've got up to 400, 450 miles of tunnels underneath. Just an extraordinary network. The Wall Street Journal has a story about perils for Israel. The refugees are growing and patience against Israel is growing. And Richard, as we have said here, I think most importantly, Joe Biden's patience, not with the Israelis, but with Benjamin Netanyahu running out fast.

Well, it should run out fast. It should have run out already. He's getting in some ways played because Bibi Netanyahu wants to see this going. So long as the war is going, I would argue, he feels it makes it much more difficult for people to move against him politically. But I think the president has to lean on him more. There's really only three options, Joe. We can introduce resolutions in the Security Council, isolating Israel to some extent. We can condition certain arms, which is what the Bernie Sanders and others want. What I think, again, he needs to do is go public. And he needs to be much more forceful, go over the head of this government and talk to the Israeli people, talk to Israeli politicians. And guess what? You're beginning to see in Israel, finally,

a post-October 7th politics begin to emerge. And people are saying, hey, to keep this war going forever isn't going to make sense. We're never going to eliminate Hamas 100 percent. Meanwhile, we're not getting the hostages home. And hey, what about introducing a political track? Who is going to occupy Gaza? We don't want to do it. How are we going to get Gaza rebuilt? We don't have the money to do that and so forth. So you're beginning to see for the first time some politics emerging and the United States ought to be a participant in that debate. So, Richard, the president's going to meet with congressional leaders today at the White House with a big emphasis on national security, supplemental spending. He needs more money

for Ukraine, Israel as well. But Ukraine really appears to be funding appears to be in jeopardy because Republicans want to attach border spending security there. So what is the pitch, do you think, from the president about why support for Ukraine remains crucial? I'm not sure the Republican argument about the borders in good faith, the cynic in me thinks maybe Joe disagrees with the Republicans prefer to keep that issue alive, quite honestly, because it's such a powerful issue to bang the president over the head with. So one idea is maybe to split it, to split it out and to basically go public and try to build a coalition of, if you will, real conservative Republicans who believe in America is playing a role in the world. And most Democrats and couple the aid to Ukraine with aid to Taiwan, which Republicans will want with aid to Israel.

So I would think basically probably separating out the border issue, getting the three. But the reason to help Ukraine, it's the most basic issue in the world. We can't allow borders to be changed with impunity by the use of force. Vladimir Putin must be stopped. He can't be allowed to go on. Ukraine should not become subservient to Russia. And we don't want the Chinese and others to basically learn the lesson that if they just use force and hang in there long enough, the United States and the West will fold their cards. That lesson cannot be learned. So, Richard, let's talk a little more about

Ukraine. I mean, Secretary of State Blinken, National Security Advisor Sullivan met with President Zelensky in Davos yesterday, again, stressing the U.S. is there to support. But the money's not there, at least not yet. There's real rising alarm from Kiev about the delay in funding and understandably so. How do you project these next, say, few weeks or months? If the money doesn't come through, if a deal can't be reached, what happens next? Well, we're already seeing it. These stories that Ukrainian soldiers are on the front lines and simply have one or two shells to launch in the course of a day, it's really painful to read. So they can get some help from South Korea, some help from Europe, a little bit from us still, but it's not going to be enough. So what they have to do, I would argue, and I actually think they should do this anyhow,

Jonathan, is switch to a defensive strategy. Ukraine is not in a position to take the war to Russia. What Ukraine needs to do is dig in, make sure that Russia cannot overwhelm them. Advantages accrue to defenders in terms of you need less munitions and the like if you're on the defense. And I think Ukraine needs to make this transition. Nothing's going to happen diplomatically this year. Putin's playing for time. He wants to see what happens after November. But I think if Ukraine focuses on the defense,

I think they can basically, they can hold out. And again, maybe it's hoping against hope, but the flow of munitions and arms may not, it won't go back to what it was. But again, I think it will go back. I don't think Republicans want to ultimately be tagged with losing that with losing this war. So my guess is Ukraine can get through this. But again, not with an offensive strategy, but with a defensive strategy. Richard, this is what I'm worried about. I mean, you brought up that Putin may, you know, Putin may be Biden time waiting for after the election. I'm sorry to ask to do this, but projecting way ahead, Netanyahu perhaps prefer a Trump presidency. Putin prefer a Trump presidency. They I mean, both those countries have a lot of stake in Ukraine and they have a lot of stake in Israel's last stake in Gaza. But will they let their concerns about the presidential election and who they want play into how they manage Ukraine and Gaza coming into the fall? Absolutely. That's why there's not going to be any diplomacy that's going to succeed in terms

of Ukraine this year. It's one of the many reasons I would think Bibi Netanyahu is playing for time. Look, there's a group of foes, beginning with Russia, that prefers a Trump presidency. Bibi Netanyahu, Hungary, Turkey also prefer a Trump presidency, much less emphasis on democracy, human rights, less pressure on making peace. But 90% of our friends around the world and allies, they are really uneasy and they are all looking at their options. Do we become self-sufficient? Do we have to think about, for example, our own nuclear deterrent? That's the biggest debate in South Korea right now. Do we need to find new security partners, however limited, to substitute for the United States?

What they're not saying publicly, maybe we have to cozy up a little bit more to a Russia or China if we don't have the United States there to depend on. So the entire world is beginning to have this conversation. I've made two trips out to Asia in the last six weeks. This is the conversation every government is having. It's almost a how do we hedge against the uncertainty here in the in the United States. So, yeah, people, even though our election is 10 months away, nine months away, the rest of the world is already essentially factoring in those possibilities and beginning to adjust how they act in 2024. Joe, one note before we let Richard

go, as we listen to his insightful analysis, globetrotting shuttle diplomacy buttoned up. I just learned in the commercial break. I hope you don't mind my sharing, Joe. Richard Haas was at Woodstock in the summer of 69. Yes. Parked his car on the New York Thruway and walked into Saugerties and saw Janis Joplin at two o'clock in the morning. Richard Haas still have the tickets. They never collected the tickets, Joe. They're there. So I still have the tickets. They never collected the tickets, Joe. So I still have them. Try to picture this. Yeah, exactly. Here's the other side of the story, though, which you may not know. He dressed. He dressed as a cop and had a baton.

And he was walking along and he just like tapped people in the back and said, keep walking, hippie. Keep walking. Is that right, Richard? It was back and say, keep walking, hippie. Keep walking. Is that right, Richard? It was something like that, Joe. Yeah. Yeah. I just. Wait, wait.

So you were actually at Woodstock. It was the summer of 69. The summer between high school and college. You don't have to tell me when Woodstock was. Come on. You weren't born yet, Joe. Yeah, I was born. He was born. We need information. So you saw Janis Joplin. That's amazing. So many did not stay to the very end, did not see Jimi

Hendrix, did not stay to the end. I apologize. I'll just make one point about it because you're a musician. As central as you think the music was, when you were at Woodstock, the music wasn't the most central thing. It was the mud, the rain, what you were drinking. Whatever. It was the experience. I think you should stop. Yeah. It was three days of peace, love, and music, Richard.

You could almost. Crosby, Stills, and Nash. Crosby, Stills, and Nash. Peace, love, and music, Richard. You could almost say that. Cross me stills and ash. Cross me stills and ash. Peace, love, and music in Point Paris. It's time to go. I'm really glad you brought that up, Willie. This is really career-inheriting the way you tell me in commercial breaks. It's the last time we ever talk.

Oh, no. Listen, listen. I mean, that's like, you know, that's along with like walking on the moon with Neil Armstrong. So that's a good way. If you couldn't do that in the summer of 69, going to Woodstock was the thing to do. Do you have any pictures from that? I don't think so. Joe, this is shockingly enough before the day of cell phones and we didn't have a car and all that with us. I don't think there anybody if you look really closely at some of those group pictures, I'm sure you could find me.

President and mayor of the Council on Foreign Relations, Richard Haass. Thank you very much. I need to see a picture of that. A mental image is not working for me. We'll have much more on the tensions in the Middle East in our next hour. And Richard Haass' secret life. Yes. When former U.S. Navy pilot and Democratic Congresswoman Mikey Sherrill of New Jersey joins the conversation.

Plus, a big headline out of the NFL with one of the Kelsey brothers reportedly retiring. We'll tell you which one next on Morning Jail. Welcome back to Morning Joe. Look at that beautiful shot of New York City as the sun comes up. So pretty. Time now for a look at the morning papers from across the country. In Missouri, the Kansas City Star reports multiple people on Saturday's Chiefs-Dolphins playoff game at Arrowhead Stadium were hospitalized due to the extreme cold. During the game, temperatures dropped to minus six degrees with a wind chill of minus 27, making it the coldest Chiefs game ever.

According to the city's fire department, 15 people at the stadium were hospitalized, including seven for hypothermia and three for frostbite. You know, Willie, I was watching the game. It really was it was it was just terrible even watching. You know, we we always talk about the ice bowl and, you know, in history. And it looked so cool on TV. But man, it just looked painful. And, you know, when when you have Mahomes putting his head down and his helmet breaks, it's just, I know nobody wants to put off a game. That's just dangerous. Yeah, minus 27. I knew as diehard

as Chiefs fans are when there were some empty seats in the stadium. That's how cold it was. Minus 27 is unsafe, as we just learned in that report. And yeah, even on the field for people who are moving around, it just, it was, it was sweating. No. Yeah, yeah. And yeah, even on the field for people who are moving around, it just it was it was sweating. No.

Yeah. Yeah. And Mahomes has helmet shattered. There was a lot going on in that game in Pennsylvania. Philadelphia Inquirer reacting to reports that Eagles center Jason Kelsey has decided to retire, pointing to the toll of more than a dozen seasons in the NFL. Kelsey has recorded 160 consecutive starts, seven Pro Bowls, six All-Pro selections, and a Super Bowl 52 win.

Also, Jonathan Lemire, Travis Kelsey, of course, gets all the attention because of his relationship with Taylor Swift and what a great player he is. But Jason Kelsey, a legendary Hall of Fame center for the Eagles, and also an incredibly charismatic guy with a bright future after football. Yeah, he's more than just Taylor Swift's possible future brother-in-law. He's going to be not only an Eagles Hall of Famer, but likely a pro football Hall of Famer.

I mean, he was sort of the heart of that team for a long time. Sadly, the one that defeated the Patriots in the Super Bowl a few years ago. But he's a number of Pro Bowls team leader. He and his brother have that podcast. It's very clear if he wants a future in media, he'll have one. Smart guy who also, it seems like, knew when it was time to hang up, even after a very disappointing end to the season. Yeah, but a great guy.

Just an absolute great guy. And a really great football player. Let's go to California. And the Desert Sun is reporting on community reaction to a proposal to ban tackle football for children under the age of 12. Parental rights groups argue parents should get to decide their children's activities and say it gives children a source of exercise and community. And Governor Gavin Newsom may hand them a win. In a statement yesterday, he said he would veto any bill with an outright ban on youth tackle football. Jonathan O'Meara, what do you think of that?

I mean, I personally, as a parent, I don't want my two sons to play tackle football. That's a decision that we've made. They play flag football and play it very well. I'll have you know, they both won their league titles this year. Thank you very much. But of course, it should be every other, every parent's, in my opinion, every parent's decision. They make the decision with their son or daughter as to what to do. Hey, Jen, I'm curious what you think. And of course, I come from a family where, you know, they basically got us out of the crib and put a football helmet on us when we were playing by the time we were seven years old. So my parents would very much disagree with this. But obviously, a lot of a lot of things have been learned about football, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. But do you really does the

state really ban ban tackle football for kids under 12? When Gavin Newsom is saying no, you know that like the American public, like when even Gavin Newsom is like, I'm not I'm not outlying tackle football, then, you know, that I mean, I know that the NFL, because when I worked for President Obama and he said something about I would not let if I had a son, I wouldn't let him play football. And, you know, this was the NFL's huge concern is that you would start losing the fan base if young if young people weren't playing football. And, you know, this is, you know, why they say they put, you know, I mean, among the reasons why they say they put a lot of effort into dealing with concussions. But it has not certainly I mean, since the next 10 years, NFL has just grown. Yeah.

Again, the numbers are extraordinary. And we've said them here before. If you look at last year's ratings, 19 of the top 20 most viewed shows in primetime were NFL games. Something like 82 out of 100 of the most watched TV shows. Also, NFL games. Of course, the other 18 Morning Joe rerun episodes of a holiday. Right. But we know that.

But, you know, it's very interesting. I even though we grew up on football, it was my family's life growing up, even more than baseball. I didn't want my my kids to play football. And then, you know, Jack wanted to play football. He made that choice. And he's bigger than most of the guys out there. But it's hard. You've got to you've got to balance it. We talk to a lot of people. It is it is a much tougher decision now than it was, say, 20, 30 years ago, knowing all the things you know about.

It's a real balance. I'm very torn by it because I also have started watching with you guys and I see what a incredible experience it is as a fan or a player. Yeah. And the discipline in Willie, you know, the thing is you can do a lot of things in high school. I'm just speaking for myself here. High school or college are very few things, as you know, that that bring you together with another group of people and also that push your endurance, test your skills. I mean, I remember two days in Northwest Florida when it was 100 degrees. And I remember, you know, of course, back then the coaches would just give you warm water out of a water faucet. I swear to God.

True. Because they said cold water made you foggy. It made your head foggy. But I remember going through that going, you know, there aren't a lot of things that I'm going to do in my life that are going to be much harder than this. Because if they were, I'd be dead. I mean, it really pushes you to the edge, especially for a 16, 17, 18-year-old kid. Yeah.

I mean, as you know, I played in high school, played from fifth grade onward. And that's exactly it for me is the relationships, the friendships, the guys that I see. We still get together and talk about that. As everybody knows, the 1991 New Jersey State Championship won by the Ridgewood High School Maroons. Everyone talks about it. Still top of mind in the culture. But that was it for me was all the relationships. And now we've learned a lot more.

I do think given the safety, a lot of teams don't tackle and practice anymore. I mean, that's not just, you know, peewee football. That's all the way up through college and the NFL. They've put things in place. The hits when you're 10 years old are not NFL hits. I guess that's one vote for it. But yeah, all parents grapple with it. But I do think it's a parent's decision

because we know a lot more about the long-term impacts of what football can do. But it does, like so many team activities or group activities, whether Joe, you play in a band or on a football team, that stuff is for life and it's invaluable. And that's what I took away from it.