Morning Joe - Morning Joe 1/20/23

Episode Date: January 20, 2023

Alec Baldwin to be charged with manslaughter in fatal shooting on the set of 'Rust,' DA says

You know, it's not my it's not my call right now to believe whether he goes to prison or not. Our focus is to get justice for Helena Hutchins and and to let everybody know that just because you're an A-list actor, you're not going to be above the law. That is the special prosecutor in the fatal shooting of cinematographer Helena Hutchins. We'll have much more on this case and this surprising decision in just a moment. Plus, President Biden's new comments about the investigation into the classified documents found at his home and personal office will play for you that new information, that sound from him. Also ahead, we'll explain why his administration is optimistic about the incendiary conservatives who are now serving on the House Oversight Committee. Plus, a live report from Ukraine as dozens of allies are meeting to determine what military aid is needed to fend off Russian forces. Good morning and welcome to Morning Joe. It is Friday, January 20th. Along with Willie,

Joe and me, we welcome you to our four hour show. And this morning, Joe, we say goodbye to a legend. Yeah, good to say goodbye to a music legend. And, you know, Willie, yesterday afternoon when we heard David Crosby had passed, obviously a lot of people were sending some of his greatest clips across Twitter and across across other social media. And my gosh, you look at him and what he did in the yard, what he did in the birds. They were just just absolutely cutting edge. And they were almost the birds were almost out of time. And they were they were so groundbreaking. And to move from that to all the other great things that he did, of course, he's remembered a big part of the Woodstock generation. But just a brilliant musician, brilliant voice, and somebody who's going to be missed sorely in music.

Yeah, Crosby, Stills, Nash, and Young, of course, legendary in its own right, but it was the Byrds, as you say, that really kind of changed music in the early and mid-1960s, along with Dylan, that sound coming out of the village, that folk rock. And David Crosby did die yesterday at the age of 81. We're told it was after a long illness. He was an iconic figure in folk rock music for more than six decades, a founding member of two memorable groups, as we mentioned, the Byrds and Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young. The Grammy Award

winner, two-time Rock and Roll Hall of Fame inductee, turned out classic hits like Mr. Tambourine Man, Turn, Turn, Turn, of course, when he was with the Byrds, and then the memorable 1969 album, Sweet Judy Blue Eyes, that he created with Stephen Stills and Graham Nash. Along with the title song, other hits included Long Time Gone and Wooden Ships. Crosby continued to perform until last May when he announced his retirement. Crosby was on Morning Joe about six years ago. We were lucky to have him on and he was talking about the inspiration for his music. So where do you get your inspiration after all these years? Is it just that the love of music, just it's what you do? It's usually love. We usually write about love. I do. Sometimes something crosses your path, you know, and you say, oh, gee, that's not right.

And then the the sort of town crier part of our kick kicks into gear and we say, oh, you know, OK, wait a minute. America's shooting its own children. We better write Ohio. Right. You can't do a steady diet of that. Right. Our job is to make people boogie or take them on a little emotional voyage. Joe, so much of the music that we know and is so iconic from that period, all those tumultuous years in the 1960s and 70s comes from him, comes from Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young, comes from the Byrds. And as I said, he's in the Hall of Fame, the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame twice. He was so good once with the Byrds, once with Crosby, Stills, Nash and Young. He obviously talked about and it's well documented some of the troubles he had with addiction and

illness and his own personal health. And he certainly changed art, not just music, but changed artistic expression in America. Artistic expression and part of a generation of singers and songwriters and musicians who literally changed culture, not only in America, but across the Western world and across the world itself. He was singing with Graham Nash in his 1971 live performance. And it's just so beautiful. The singing was so beautiful. The music was so beautiful. The harmonies were so beautiful. His voice so beautiful that I find it hard to imagine that people in the audience in 1971, 1972, weren't anymore moved by that voice than I was 50 years later in 2022.

And of this, I'm confident 50 years from now, people will still be hearing that voice and the same emotions will well up. That is the power of the music of David Crosby and those that he played with. It's just timeless and remarkable. Really is the soundtrack of our lives. And you're right, Joe, it will continue for generations. So we're going to move to our top story now. Actor Alec Baldwin will be charged with two counts of involuntary manslaughter for the fatal on-set shooting of Rust, cinematographer Helena Hutchins. The film's armor, Hannah Gutierrez-Reed, also faces the same charges.

In New Mexico, involuntary manslaughter carries a sentence of up to 18 months in prison and a $5,000 fine. In addition, Baldwin and Gutierrez-Reed each face a firearms enhancement, which carries a mandatory five-year sentence if convicted. While filming in October of 2021, Baldwin was holding a prop gun that contained a live round of ammunition when it discharged. Hutchins was fatally shot, and the film's director, Joel Souza, was injured. Baldwin maintains he didn't pull the trigger, but an FBI forensic analysis of the gun determined it could not have gone off without the trigger being pulled. She disarms me, we go to lunch, we come back for

lunch and they hand me the revolver, the Colt. And they, I just like the name. It's Amanda again. They arm me. And you're assuming, as we've done every time, that it's a cold gun for the rehearsal. She cleans the barrel every time and she checks that the rounds are all cosmetic rounds or nothing in the chamber for the rehearsal. She hands me the gun.

I'm assuming she's done it the right way. She's done it in the last two weeks. I put it in the holster. I pull it out slow. We're rehearsing. We're not filming anything. I pull it out slow. We're rehearsing. We're not filming anything. I pull it out slow, turn, cock the pistol, bang, it goes off, and she hits the ground. In a statement, Baldwin's attorney said, quote,

Mr. Baldwin had no reason to believe there was a live bullet in the gun or anywhere on the movie set. He relied on the professionals with whom he worked, who assured him the gun did not have live rounds. We will fight these charges and we will win. Baldwin and the movie's production company settled a wrongful death lawsuit with Hutchins' family back in November for an undisclosed amount. Meanwhile, assistant director of the film David Halls has signed a plea agreement for a charge of negligent use of a deadly weapon. He will get a suspended sentence and six months of probation. Joe, there's so much going on here on this, especially, you know, the clear fact that Alec Baldwin says he didn't pull the trigger. Did he not think he pulled the trigger or how is that determined?

And also he did a lot of press. He did a lot of press claiming his innocence throughout this entire process. And I wonder, just listening to the special prosecutor, if that potentially worked against him. You know, we grow up, even when we're young, and we see these TV lawyers or movie lawyers telling somebody about their right to remain silent. That is their right. But it also is just the smart thing to do. You know, there's a reason why lawyers tell their clients not to talk. Alec Baldwin just talked nonstop there. And that video that we saw, he did podcasts. He was constantly going out,

going through everything, trying to blame other people. Yeah. And he was trying he was trying to blame everybody else. What people think on podcasts don't matter to Alec Baldwin should not matter to Alec Baldwin. What the court thinks, what ultimately Baldwin for what he did. I just say anybody listening to this show, anybody watching this show, don't talk. Keep your mouth shut. Get a lawyer. Talk to the lawyer. I don't care what it is. Again, and this guy has just been talking nonstop and again, trying to go around assigning blame. And every time you talk, you give prosecutors something to work off of. And I must say, he just he is as rich and powerful as he is. He must not have had anybody around him that could just say what you tell me often, Joe, stop talking. Yeah. And I will now. Let's bring in MSNBC legal analyst, Stani Zavala. Stani, you know, I was watching the show yesterday morning and I heard Mika ask you, hey, is Alec Baldwin going to get

charged? And she thought that he was going to. I must say, I was with you. I didn't see the state charging this guy for a variety of reasons, a lot of it having to do with them being able to get a conviction. I'm still skeptical that they're going to be able to get a conviction. That said, they brought the charges. I'll ask you a day after, after listening to their logic, are you surprised? And why did they do it? And are they going to be able to get a conviction? I'm even more skeptical after hearing a number of interviews these prosecutors gave because they revealed their theory of the case. And it's got a lot of holes. Let me give you an example. When asked, hey, are you pursuing Baldwin as an executive producer or as the guy who held the gun?

The answer was, well, both. How's that going to fly with a jury? Well, you know, jury, we're not exactly sure what our theory of the case is. You pick. Help us out. That's not what juries do. Another thing they said yesterday was the bullet. How did the live round get on the set? They said, well, that's a red herring. It's not a red herring. It may be one of the most important issues. Now, I'm going to try out this closing argument on you, my jury of five, and you see if it works. The prosecution doesn't even care how this live round got on the set. We don't know if it was even done intentionally. It could have been somebody looking to sabotage this set.

The real bad guy may be out there. Why aren't the prosecution looking for him? Well, I'll tell you why. Because they got tunnel vision from day one. They knew who they wanted to go after. They talked him into an interview. They led him on thinking, hey, you know, we're just trying to investigate this. But they never looked for the real bad guy because in their mind, the bad guy was the Hollywood elite. The guy that they're saying in interviews, no one is above the law. And they're adding, including fancy Hollywood types. But can it be both? How'd I do? Was it persuasive? Anyone? But can it be both? I mean, look, he's a producer on the show, so he's in charge of anything that happens within the specter of

creating a movie. And on top of it, he's the man holding the gun where the trigger somehow got pulled. I don't know how you can avoid this. Now, I agree the special prosecutor sounds very personal in this. You know, it was very much a response, I think, to his outward defense. Absolutely. Totally. It really felt personal. But there there is something to be looked at here, whether ultimately he is convicted remains to be seen. We I think we all can agree this is horrific, a horrific mistake that nobody planned on or wanted to have happen. I guess the investigation will will bear that out as well. But how could he be

completely separated from this? It can't be. Completely. So my thinking is that- Separated from charges. How can he be separated from charges? I'll tell you why, and I'll go back to the DA's statements. In fact, if I'm the defense, I want to call the DA as a witness. You can't. But one of the things they said is, along this chain of custody, there were a number of different things that people did wrong. Well, as a defense attorney, I'm going to point to those other people because they're not co-conspirators. This was not an agreement among many people, including Baldwin's co-defendant. They're not accomplices with each other.

They're not co-conspirators. So the more Hannah Gutierrez-Reed is guilty, the less Alec Baldwin is. The more someone in this chain of custody is guilty, the less Alec Baldwin is. The more someone in this chain of custody is guilty, the less Alec Baldwin is. And you're going to make the argument, yes, an actor can rely on a first assistant director to say, this is a cold gun and believe him the way he's probably done umpteen million times. What was he? He played Jack Ryan back in the 90s. So he's been doing this. This is a cold gun. Joe, the bottom line is, though, cold gun, toy gun, replica, vintage gun, any type of gun.

You never pointed at another person. That's a clear rule. Even a plastic gun. Even a plastic gun. That is somebody that is a gun owner and that grew up in the culture around guns, that guns for all. Yes, you never do that. It's reckless. It's irresponsible. The question is, though, in this case, is it a crime? Willie, I told this story before when I was afraid of flying as as a kid.

I flew across the country next to a pilot who told me and said this a lot before, when a plane goes down, a plane goes down, not because one thing went wrong, usually, it's because like 15 or 16 things went wrong. They just never go wrong. One stacked on top of another, on top of another. And you just go back and you say, what are the odds? That's the case here. And again, you've got chain of custody. You've got a question. How did the live ammo get onto the set? Who put it in? What did I? It's all I agree with Danny here. It's if you're a lawyer that your standard is not a preponderance of the evidence. It's reasonable doubt. And if I've got this much of a chain, if I get the chain of custody that bounces along like this and then we don't have even the most basic question answered, how did the live ammo get on the set?

That's that's a case that if if shaped correctly, I'm feeling pretty good about going to a jury defending Alec Baldwin. Yeah. And what the prosecutors are saying is that Alec Baldwin is the last link in that chain of command and that he had a responsibility ultimately at the end to make sure the gun was safe. You can read interviews yesterday and I talked to some people who said that's just a fundamental misunderstanding of the way a movie set works. The actor makes an assumption that a professional whose job it is, whose specific job it is, to control the arms and load them and make sure it's cold, and to tell the actor this is a cold gun, that's the armorer's job, not the actor's job,

and the actor is trusting that person. So what did you make of those comments, Danny, from the prosecutors where they said, at the end of the line here, this is Alec Baldwin's responsibility, which flies in the face of what a lot of people in Hollywood said yesterday. It said that's just not how it works. Exactly. And that's why this defense is ultimately going to be a battle of the experts.

They're going to get a firearms expert. They're going to get a stunt expert, a prop expert. And all they need is one or two persuasive people to tell the jury, hey, this is not how it works. Actors are permitted to believe that when they're handed a cold gun, it is a cold gun. I mean, look, we're here on a kind of film set, right? There's a camera over there on a boom. I never would have you ever gone over to check that. Hey, that could be a dangerous.

You know what? I'm going to go check right now. But you're not handling that camera. Exactly. Well, no, right. Exactly. That's true. So that's a good point. But when you're handed a gun and everybody on set tells you that it's safe, you have a right to believe it's safe. By the way, here's another expert that

they could use. Any expert that they can find that would say that these old style single action revolvers could possibly go off when the firing pin is touched by the hammer. All you need is one. And one thing I'll tell you from trying cases, you can find an expert to say anything. So all they need is one expert to come in and say this is theoretically possible or to testify about the practices on a movie set that this is expected. You could be handed a gun and believe it's cold. And you've got reasonable doubt right there. Remember, all we've heard so far is the prosecution side. We have not yet heard the defense side. Joe, I think if you're the prosecutor, you need to look at this a different way. If I can

just just I mean, I don't know what I'm talking about. I'm a dumb country lawyer. But but going after Alec Baldwin, the actor, seems to me to be a fraught legal approach because for all the reason what Willie said, what Danny said, I mean, it's just what it's like. Look, though, at Alec Baldwin, the producer of a cut rate movie where they were trying to do everything on the fly, where they cut corners every everywhere they can with the people they hired, hiring people on the set that had had sketchy problems in the past, trying to cut costs. If you can prove that rich Hollywood guy was trying to do a low budget film and he cut costs in a way that endangered everybody on that set, I think that might be a little more persuasive with a jury. I mean, I think that's, he bookends this. He's a producer, potentially making those decisions.

And he's the one holding the gun. This is where there's a disconnect. I don't, I guess I've been around guns too much. And I just, I would never, ever, ever, ever in my life meet a gun expert who says it's okay to point a cold gun at someone. And you make a good point. Remember, this is in New Mexico. It's an open carry state.

So you might have people on that jury that are more knowledgeable about guns than, say, people here in Manhattan. And they may have your view, which is, hey, look, if it looks even kind of like, if it looks like a futuristic ray gun, don't point it at anybody because it could be loaded or a laser or whatever. Joe, I cut you off. Sorry. Well, no, that's OK. You know, the thing is, Danny makes a great point. Right. So New Mexico is up and carry. A lot of people have guns there. there, and it might be the presumption of some that don't live in a culture where there are a lot of gun owners, that they would be more lenient on Alec Baldwin when actually, as I say on this

show all the time, the opposite is true. Because most people that I've known growing up in Mississippi and Alabama and Georgia and Northwest Florida, they're really responsible with their guns. They're really, they lock them up. They would never, ever point a gun at anybody. So actually the fact that there's more of a gun culture in that state may actually cut against Alec Baldwin more than say, if this were tried in Manhattan. So interesting. MSNBC legal analyst Danny Savalas, thank you very much. We'll be seeing a lot of you as we watch this case progress. And still ahead on Morning Joe, why Biden world is giddy this morning. We'll explain that. Plus, global leaders will meet today to discuss the next steps in the defense of Ukraine. We'll get a live report from Kiev amid talks about a huge new military aid package.

And former President Trump voices frustration with evangelical leaders for not yet backing his 2024 campaign. We'll show you his new comments. You're watching Morning Joe. We'll be right back. No time before the dawn. JFK Airport here in New York, a JetBlue plane accidentally bumped into another JetBlue plane that was parked on the runway. Everyone's OK. And JetBlue has even released an apology. Here it is. We here at JetBlue would like to apologize for our recent misstep. We take the safety of our passengers very seriously, and this kind of careless accident will not be tolerated. But look on the bright side.

At least we aren't spirit. Okay, this is true. Jonathan Lemire. Yeah, they're not spirit. You know, in LaGuardia, Mika, you know, because some of the gates are out in Lancaster County, they've had collisions at times. Stop. I don't like this kind of gesture. Some horse and buggies and some JetBlue flights. Okay. We're going to move on now. Willie, do you, I don't know about you, but when I have to travel through LaGuardia, I put on my watch. That's where I get my 10,000 steps in. I get my 10,000 steps just getting inside the airport and going through security. And then I get my next 10,000 trying

to find the state. I'm like, is it? It's the first tri-state airport, right? And so I'm going, am I going to be flying out of Connecticut, Jersey, or Pennsylvania today? Yeah, you've got to stop and take meals along the way. So you have your breakfast right when you get through security. Then after about 45 minutes, you stop and have lunch and you just keep moving until you hit the gate. We do have to say LaGuardia is so much better than it was and people complained about for so many years. And they're just still working to cut through some of those areas to get you more direct route to your gate, Joe. And there's like a two-story escalator. Like, what if you drop your bag? I kept thinking I'm going to drop my bag.

It's like four stories in Rev. I don't know. I kind of, at times I miss the dirty bathrooms in the small airports in LaGuardia where you can get to your flight in three minutes, man. Seriously, it's a haul. And again, I'm fine. But, you know, I'm getting old, Rev. In a couple of years, I'm going to have to get one of those Mike Barnacle scooters just to get to my gate. Yep.

No, it is very, very, very, very much extended. Let's put it that way. I was taking some young people from National Action Network to go to a rally and march in Washington. And when we finally got to the airplane, they said the march is over. Right. I said, no, we haven't got to Washington. They thought we'd already done the march i mean it's that far all right let's get back to politics john thelmere and his colleagues at politico have new reporting about a cause for optimism in the biden white house let me just say this makes me very nervous democrats should never be optimistic but okay the installation of some of the most controversial House Republicans to several of the most front-facing congressional committees is causing unbridled glee in the West Wing. Hello? No glee allowed. putting Georgia Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene on the House Oversight Committee only

make it easier for the White House to paint the opposing party as unhinged. After House Speaker Kevin McCarthy announced the new committee assignments earlier this week, White House staffers sent texts to each other with, oh, don't do this, digital high fives. One of the Biden ally they spoke with called it a political gift. And another top Democratic activist said, quote, this collective group has the credibility of a sentient my pillow commercial. Well, it may be true. Jonathan Lemire, who is with us now, White House peer chief of Politico and the host of Way Too Early. Also with us, former chair of the Republican National Committee, Michael Steele, and former aide to the George W. Bush White House and State Department, Sallis Jordan. She's an MSNBC political analyst. Jonathan Lemire, no glee. You can't have glee as a Democrat. I've never heard such a thing. It is unusual, and perhaps some of those watching

right now at the White House will change their tone after we talk about it. But this is how it was received in this past week. It's sort of a political gift for a White House that's had a rocky stretch here last couple of weeks because of the classified documents material matter. They were looking for some good news and they think they got it. Now, we should note, no White House likes to be the subject of investigations. Some House Democrats, my colleagues and I spoke to, definitely urged tapping the brakes a little bit on the optimism, saying, look, this is still going to be a pretty painful process. But from the White House perspective, they've thought this all along,

that if the Republicans were to take the House, and they did, narrowly, that first of all, Kevin McCarthy is going to have a hard time keeping it under control. We've already seen that. And secondly, there's going to be this elevation of these fringe characters, the Paul Gosars, the Laura Boebert's and now and Marjorie Taylor Greene. And those are the people that the White House has warned as real threats to democracy. They still think that's true. They're going to still keep making those threats. But they also think that these lawmakers are not going to be able to resist overstepping that they represent for the most part, deep red districts. They have national constituencies for fundraising. They're going to play to the extreme elements of

the right, and they're going to make a mess of these hearings. And the White House will be able to present a stark contrast. Hey, we're the adults in the room. We're being responsible. We're trying to do the work of the people. You guys are grandstanding, and they think there'll be some political benefits from that. You know, Michael, Mika is always concerned whenever anybody celebrates and takes victory laps. I always bring up the case of where the Carter administration threw a party the night Ronald Reagan won the Republican nomination in 1980. We knew how that ended. But she always talks about Hillary Clinton joking about Donald Trump on Saturday Night Live with her fellow Hillary Clinton right there and how badly that went. fact that the Oversight Committee really has set themselves up with conspiracy theorists, insurrectionists, weirdos, political freaks? Yeah, Joe, I think that this is sort of the,

you know, snorting water out of your nose when you hear the list and you start laughing, it's just like, oh, he had that moment. And while it's unsightly and people like, you know, you know, get a little bit upset about it. Yeah, it kind of makes sense when you look at it because it's not serious. We all know this is the big payoff to put it wholly incompetent people on committees like oversight, putting incompetent people on intelligence, people you know who, outside of their role as a member of Congress, would not get close to national security clearance or any other type of clearance to review the information that they'll now have at their fingertips. So, yeah, there is that, you know, snorting water kind of moment. But, you know,

I think the administration is going to be ultimately the adult in the room because of what's going to be opposite them. You know, they're just by default going to be the adult in the room. But I think you have to be careful that you look like an adult, which you don't want to look like is that you're just as immature and giddy, giddy as those that clearly are there. I mean, you have Congresswoman on the right having bathroom fights and arguments. Oh, my Lord. So you don't need to look like you're in the other

side of the stall doing high fives. You need to act like an adult and acting like an adult is not to be a high five and acting jitty. You can wait till you get home and say that to your husband or wife or partner. But I think that this is a time where everyone needs to act at all times more like an adult and let the other side destroy themselves. And I think the giddiness is more for their political prospects in the White House and not for the country to have these people in real positions of power. As we look ahead to 2024, we've been looking at some of this polling between Donald Trump and Ron DeSantis.

If he decides to run. Other candidates now are starting to step forward. Former President Trump's early announcement that he's running for president again doesn't seem to have had the effect of freezing out the rest of a potential field. Former U.N. ambassador and South Carolina Governor Nikki Haley had this to say when asked about her 2024 plans. When you're looking at a run for president, you look at two things. You first look at does the current situation push for new leadership? The second question is, am I that person that could be that new leader? Yes, we need to go in a new direction. And can I be that leader? Yes, I think I can be that leader.

Ambassador Haley talking to Brett Baer on Fox there. So, Elise, obviously, it's very early in the process and you have some people sort of testing the waters. Mike Pence and other ones, they believe that perhaps Donald Trump is vulnerable. These, of course, have been people who've fallen in line with him over the last five, six years. Do you think a field is actually going to step out and challenge Donald Trump? From all indications, it looks like yes. Mike Pompeo's book, he's taken some shots at President Trump over China from the right, even saying that he wasn't tough enough on China at the beginning of COVID. And then you've so you've got him in the race. You've got Nikki Haley looking like she's going to run. You've got Mike Pence and then Ron

DeSantis. A Republican fundraiser told me this week that the day he announces the money that is going to come in to Ron DeSantis from the rich donor class of the Republican Party is just going to be tremendous. And so that at least at a minimum five, a field of five. And that helps Donald Trump because it splinters the vote just enough that probably gives him the edge in a primary fight. So, Rev, we talk and a lot of people talk about the mistakes Donald Trump's made, how Donald Trump's best days are behind him. He's picking fights with pro-life communities, picking fights with evangelicals. And everybody's like, Ron DeSantis, Ron DeSantis, Ron DeSantis. But as we were talking about last night on the show, DeSantis may not be able to handle,

you talk about James Brown, and are you a lounge actor? Can you handle the big stage? Well, let's talk about boxing, because this is usually one-on-one. We saw what Trump did to Marco Rubio. We saw what Trump did to Rand Paul. we saw what trump did to marco rubio we saw what trump did duran paul we saw what trump did to jeb bush we saw one-on-one he just completely

destroyed every one of them right lindsey grant he destroyed every one of them and it's kind of like you know ali in 1977 78 ali was slowing down There were great boxers like Jimmy Young that would always push him to the edge. But he was still the champ. He still figured out how to win fights. Now, forgive me, I'm not comparing Donald Trump in any way to Muhammad Ali. So please save your tweets for somebody else who's going to actually read them. But I am saying he's still the champ in the GOP. He's still the most popular member of the party. He's still the guy that can dominate the stage like nobody else there. And I don't know.

I think we, the media, keep making the mistake of thinking, ah, he can't win the Republican nomination this year, can he? No, I agree. We should never underestimate someone like Trump, the Republican nomination this year, can he? No, I agree. We should never underestimate someone like Trump, particularly when we've seen what he's done. And as you and I were talking, Muhammad Ali, who I got to know pretty well,

toward the end of his career, he knew how to do just enough to win rounds when he couldn't necessarily knock somebody out. And he used theatrics. And there's no one better in the Republican political realm that understands theatrics better than Donald Trump. And that should not be underestimated. But the other thing I'll tell you an Ali story. I was at his training camp once in Deer Lake, and I went into the different cabins for different purposes. And they had one cabin where people were trained. And I went into the training cabin and this guy looked terrific.

He was sparring and he was making all the right moves. And Ali came in slowly and was standing behind me. And when I noticed he was behind me, I said, champ, this guy's got it. This guy's going to be big. He looked at me, said, Sharpton. He said he could throw a great punch. Let's see if he can take a punch. And a minute later, the guy was flat on his back. And that's what I'm saying. That's what I'm saying about DeSantis. We see DeSantis throwing a lot of punches in Florida when he gets on that big stage, particularly against Donald Trump. Let's see if he can take a real punch. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Ron DeSantis is an idea,

an alternative to Donald Trump for a lot of people. We haven't seen it yet really displayed on a national level. So Michael Steele, Paul Ryan's comment, the former speaker last month got a lot of attention when he said Donald Trump is a proven loser. That was his term. He said, I can't imagine him getting the nomination where we said, are you kidding? You can't imagine Donald Trump getting the nomination at this point. Have we learned nothing? Of course he can get the nomination. Of course, he's the front runner. The question is, are there enough Republicans? Do Nikki Haley, Mike Pence and others believe that Donald Trump is so weakened that they can take the nomination for him. How do you see this potential field shaping up? I agree with Joe's assessment.

And the Ali references by Rev is an excellent one because that is the guy. That's where he is. You know, yeah, he's slowing politically. And I've said from the very, very beginning, yeah, he may be slowing politically, but he still has the ability to maneuver inside the ring. He is still the guy that they're going to have to go through to the nomination. And that's going to require pulling together a number of things. So in the clip where Governor Haley is talking about, am I that person?

Yeah, you are until you aren't. And the people who get to decide that is the base of the Republican Party. I don't see a lot of folks jumping up and down saying, Nikki, run. I don't see a lot of folks jumping up and down saying, DeSantis, run, except the business class of the GOP. Now, the folks in coach have a whole different point of view about where this plane is ultimately going to go. And they know that at the end of the day, the pilot is on their side. And so I think people need to slow their roll a little bit here. Wait till Trump gets in the ring again and actually engages. Trump is not engaged with anybody. All he's done is announced, yeah, I'm running for president. He hasn't engaged on any level with anyone.

So until we see that, Joe, I think you've nailed the exact space we're in here. Y'all just need to calm it down, see what he does, because whether or not these folks can take a punch from him is ultimately going to decide how far they go in this election cycle. Well, and again, I actually sometimes sports analogies don't fit tightly. I've got to say here it fits perfectly. You get two boxers in a ring. You find out really quickly who the champ is and who the pretender is. You get two people up on a debate stage and one starts sweating profusely. Like, you know

immediately who the pretender is and who the champ is. And the champ goes in, mocks him for sweating and then jabs, jabs, jabs. He sweats a little bit more. And then he just goes in for the kill. And Trump did that with 16 people in 2016. And again, I haven't seen anybody that can get in his face that's good enough to get in his face. I had a good, good, good friend of mine, a Republican friend that was at the DeSantis inauguration. And he said business leaders from across the country were flying in. They were lined up as far as you can see to just be in the presence of Ron DeSantis. I said, yeah. And a lot of those guys, they were doing the same thing with Jeb Bush in 2015. So we'll see. Maybe DeSantis can take a punch. My guess is, just all of us talking right now, my guess is DeSantis says, wait a second,

why do I go to the meat grinder that chewed up and spit out 16 Republicans politically? Why don't I let Trump run again? I'll serve out my term. I'll end up with, you know, 80 percent approval ratings among Republicans. And then in 26, I just opened my presidential campaign and I don't have to even take on with this. Yeah, the champ. Right. I think that's probably what he's thinking until I ask you, because I think he knows he does not want to cross Donald Trump on a debate stage. Interesting. Interesting. All right. Coming up today marks the halfway point of Joe Biden's first term. Steve Kornacki will be at the big board to break down what Biden needs to watch out for in his next two years with a look back at some past presidencies.

Plus, Vanity Fair's Molly Jung Bass joins us with her new piece on, quote, the not particularly talented Mr. Santos and what the saga says about Speaker Kevin McCarthy. Morning Joe will be right back. I really want to know. Tell me who are you? Because I really want to know. Beautiful picture of the United States Capitol at 648 on a Friday morning. Today in Germany, leaders from 50 nations will meet at the Ramstein Air Base to discuss next steps in helping Ukraine. Allies are discussing a major infusion of military aid, including armored vehicles, rockets, missiles and more. Joining us now live from Central Kyiv is NBC News foreign correspondent Raf Sanchez. Raf, what more can you tell us about today's meeting?

Willie, that meeting at Ramstein Air Base is underway now as we speak. U.S. Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin is there along with his counterparts from across NATO. And the big question at the top of the agenda is whether the NATO allies are going to start sending battle tanks to Ukraine. Now, tanks may feel like something of a World War II relic, especially in this age of drones and precision missiles. But the reality is so much of the fighting right now is happening along that vast front line in the east of Ukraine. And Ukrainian officials from President Zelensky on downwards are saying tanks will be crucial for that effort. Zelensky spoke

virtually to that summit at Ramstein. I want you to take a listen to a little bit of what he had to say. And I'm addressing you, those who themselves dream of a certain world for their children. It is the time now to protect those dreams. This is the future. I'm sure you do not want to allow such a world order where hatred will rule. Your parents would not want that kind of world for you. You would not want such a world for your children. But this is exactly such a war other than Russia seeks for all of us, not only for Ukraine, but for the whole world. Now, all eyes at that summit are on Germany and whether Germany is going to allow for its leopard tanks to be given to Ukraine. A number of allies across Eastern Europe have those leopard tanks. They are considered top of the line vehicles. But because they're made in Germany, the Germans need to give permission before they can be given to the

Ukrainians. And that is not a step right now that German Chancellor Olaf Scholz is prepared to take. It's partly there is a long pacifist tradition in Germany, especially on the left of the political spectrum there, where his social democratic party is from. Partly, of course, Germany much more vulnerable to retaliation from Russia in terms of energy supplies. So the German position right now is they are not prepared to allow those tanks to go to Ukraine unless the U.S. sends tanks of its own. And, Willie, that is a position that is really frustrating the White House. American officials say, look, the American tanks, the M1 Abrams, are not practical for Ukraine.

They require incredibly specialized maintenance. And they are gas guzzlers. They can get through a gallon of gasoline a minute at certain times. The Leopard tanks, they're easier to maintain. They are in Europe already. The spare parts are in Europe already. And the U.S. is saying that is just a much more practical solution. The other point that U.S. officials make is that the U.S. is by far the biggest military aid contributor to Ukraine, fighting what we all know is the largest war in Europe since the Second World War. And they say, we are already contributing a lot.

President Biden has just announced the latest defense package. It is $2.5 billion. It includes a lot of what we are used to hearing in these packages, thousands of rounds of artillery shells, three million rounds of small arms ammunition, 2,000 anti-armor rockets. But what is new in this package are 90 Stryker armored personnel carriers. These are carriers designed to move infantry quickly across the battlefields. And the U.S. says that as this fighting continues in the east, they hope these vehicles will help Ukraine try to make ground,

especially before the Russians regroup for what officials here in Kiev fear could be a renewed Russian offensive, possibly starting as early as the next few weeks. Willie. And all of this conversation in Germany takes place just a few days after the UK announced it will send 14 of those Challenger 2 battle tanks into the fight. NBC's Raf Sanchez in central Kiev for us this morning. Raf, thanks so much. Just ahead on Morning Joe, it is still very early, of course, but Donald Trump's presidential campaign is lacking support from one key group, and that is evangelicals. We'll look at his strained relationship with the conservative voting bloc just ahead on Morning Joe.