Morning Joe - Morning Joe 12/1/22

Episode Date: December 1, 2022

Trump's tax returns now in the hands of House Democrats after lengthy court battle

Both candidates are out campaigning up a storm right now, but Walker's speeches are especially notable because they are insane. Here he is on Monday making the case for a border wall. I'm going to secure this border. They said, how are we going to do that? I said, well, I can do it then. You better put up a wall, a wall to work, a wall working around your house when you got a wall around your house. They can get in, but you know what? They get in, it'll be hard to get out because i got a dog that my dog really won't bite there i showed up to vote this morning i was one of those folks who got in line and spent about an hour waiting and uh you know it was the most disappointing ballot i've ever stared at in my entire life since i started voting you know i had two candidates that I just couldn't couldn't find anything that made sense for me to put my vote behind. And so

I walked out of that that ballot box showing up to vote, but not voting for either one of them. Wow. Like many Republicans in Georgia, the state's own lieutenant governor just couldn't bring himself to vote for Herschel Walker. That clip from Colbert might explain why he just, what does he talk about? Nobody can understand him. Former President Barack Obama heads there today to Georgia to campaign for Senator Raphael Warnock, while

former President Donald Trump is persona non grata. Good morning and welcome to Morning Joe. It is Thursday, December 1st, guys. That's like we're getting to Christmas now. OK, so you need to get all your shopping done, Joe. Along with Joe, Willie and me, we have U.S. special correspondent for BBC News, Katty Kay, columnist and associate editor for The Washington Post, David Ignatius,

former White House press secretary, now an MSNBC host. Jen Psaki is with us and CEO of the Messina Group. Jim Messina, he served as White House deputy chief of staff to President Obama and ran his 2012 reelection campaign. Joe, a lot going on in Georgia, getting closer to the runoff. A lot going on in Georgia, some crazy stuff going on in Arizona where Republicans are so desperate to own the libs, they seem to be willing to lose election races now to own the libs. I guess that's where this ends up. Donald Trump's tax returns now in the hands of the Ways and Means Committee on Capitol Hill. That's fascinating.

And Willie, some really sad news. Fleetwood Mac's Christine McVie died yesterday at the age of 79. Yeah, her family broke that news yesterday saying she passed away peacefully in the company of her family yesterday after a brief illness. She was, of course, the songwriter, the singer behind some of Fleetwood Mac's biggest hits include Everywhere, Little Lies, Don't Stop, Hold On. She wrote so many of their great songs. The band issued a statement saying she was the best musician anyone could have in their band, the best friend anyone could have in their life. That sound, Joe, from Rumors to Tusk, her voice, her song, so much of what we know of Fleetwood Mac comes from her mind, comes from

her talent and comes from her voice. Just beautiful in her songwriting. So often just incredible pop songs, but understated. Just just a brilliant, brilliant songwriter, musician, performer will be will be sadly missed. Mika and yeah, she she was I mean, she and Fleetwood Mac really did. They just consumed pop popular music in the mid 70s in a massive way from rumors on. I got more texts about this yesterday. So many people so sad, devastated about this and her voice and as you said joe her songwriting um it was her and stevie nicks the most like soulful haunting familiar yet not i mean there's something about both of their voices but christy mcvee especially oh my gosh it's i i i listen to them all the time yeah All the time.

And absolutely beautiful. And she will be missed for sure. Let's move on to politics now. After years of back and forth court battles, the House Ways and Means Committee finally has access to former President Trump's tax returns. The Treasury Department said yesterday it has complied with a Supreme Court order that allows the committee to view the documents. A Democrat on the panel tells NBC

News committee members expect to learn more about Trump's taxes during a meeting later today. At this point, it's unclear what Democrats plan to do with the documents. And Republicans on the committee have said they're not interested in Trump's tax records. And what could Democrats, Jen, do at this point? And what's of interest, do you think, to them? What are they looking for the most? I mean, look, the Trump tax returns are like the big white whale Democrats have wanted for years. There's a lot of things they could do with them. One, know how much he's paid in taxes, if he's paid taxes. Now, he might argue, look, I've worked the system. The system's broken.

That's right. I'm smart. That's what he said. That was a campaign thing for him. That's true. And that's what he'll do. And I think they know that. But they can also call him out as a fraud.

I mean, this is a guy who says he is a hugely successful businessman. Well, let's see. And your tax returns do tell you that. So we'll see what they do. My bet is they're going to really dive into it and figure out how to trickle this out. Yeah. Joe. Yeah. Jim has seen there's also again, he could say, well, you know, I know how to game the system so well. I didn't pay taxes all these years. There were also, of course, the New York Times reports a couple of years ago

that I believe it was during the 1980s and parts of 1990s. He lost more money than any other American that whose tax returns they were going through. I mean, he was just a colossal failure as a businessman. Anyway way you put it. This is like terrible news for Donald Trump right at the wrong time. You have the New York attorney general looking into his taxes and his corporate stuff. Jen's exactly right. You put the smart people on the investigative committee on these tax returns, and they're going to find the things that he said in New York that are different than what he said in his taxes.

He's going to go straight at this corporate issue at exactly the wrong time. And it goes to his absolute underbelly of a problem, which is he's always been a liar. He's always been a guy who just says one thing and does exactly the other. And voters are starting to wake up to this. But the worst part is he's now got real people with subpoena power with these taxes who are not going to stop. And whatever they have when Republicans take over, they're just going to hand it to the New York attorney general. And she's going to continue this investigation. So David Ignatius will get a sense of where he got his money from as well, perhaps. We'll see better than we have how he built his business and to what extent he really built something real as opposed to a licensing operation in recent years.

But you just feel looking at the tax issue and the whole range of political problems that Trump has, that the air is just going out of this balloon. We're watching finally, I think, the real deflation of the Trump myth as a financial wizard, as a political wizard. People are not as afraid of him as they were. You see that as a bipartisan group of members of Congress last night. And it was a different feeling than I've had in the last few years. People willing to Republicans really willing to criticize him and tell the truth about it. Yeah, people kind of cringing a little bit more, even some Republicans going, I just don't know if I need this anymore. Willie? So let's turn to Arizona. Joe mentioned it a minute ago, kind of an astounding story, where one county is delaying the certification of its midterm election results,

which could have unintended consequences for a number of Republicans who have won. Cochise County, Arizona reportedly refused to certify its results earlier this week, citing voter fraud without any evidence. If the county does not certify its votes by December 8th, Secretary of State and Governor-elect Katie Hobbs has said the votes of the nearly 50,000 residents will not be included in the final tally. So without those votes, two close races would flip from Republican victories to Democratic wins. Arizona's sixth congressional district, where Republicans gained a seat, instead would go to a Democrat. Also would flip the race for state superintendent of public instruction

from a Republican victory to a Democrat. So, Katie Kay, you've spent a lot of time in Arizona. You were there for a good part of the summer covering Carrie Lake and everything that Republicans are doing out there and continue to do. So just to sort of recap this story, they're protesting because they say there was voter fraud. There was not. There's no evidence of that. They're going to withhold those votes and by doing so lose themselves to elections that they won. Yeah, this is holding yourself to purity in politics in a way that is completely destructive to your own party, it seems, because if they go ahead with this, they're enabling Democrats to have more power, not less, which is presumably exactly the opposite of what they want. What's fascinating at the moment is watching Carrie Lake, because she's because when I interviewed her over the summer and spent time with her, she was

bombastic, reveled in the fight, reveled in owning the libs, supremely confident, supremely confident in a way that was kind of brash. She's actually she isn't. I would say she's a very skillful retail politician. I've seen her work a room with voters and she's really good at it. So you shouldn't write her off, I think, as a political force because of this, because she has a talent there. But just watching her Twitter feed recently and the videos that have come out of it, she's subdued. She's not defeated, but she's not fighting anymore. There's a real. Yeah, you definitely, Joe, see something going on behind the eyes. Sort of, you know, you can a little defend a little defeated, a little defeated, but still.

Well, how how fascinating, though, she finds herself alone. All the election deniers, the major election deniers, all lost their elections. And I know a lot of Republicans thought they were going to own the libs. It's all about owning the libs. Jim has seen how fascinating that now we're seeing that we always talk about Stephen Miller getting sushi at a restaurant, being shouted at, and after buying the expensive sushi, throwing it away, thinking he was owning the libs by not eating the expensive sushi that he paid for. This takes it to, I guess, its natural conclusion where they're now wanting to own the libs by losing elections directly. I mean, but you look at this, it just overall

conservatives, Trumpers have built this cottage industry where they're like, OK, well, we can make millions of dollars owning the libs, writing books. We can make millions of dollars owning the libs, doing podcasts. We can make millions of dollars owning the libs on a cable news primetime show. We can make millions of dollars owning the libs on a cable news primetime show. We can make millions of dollars owning the libs starting websites, which is all great. I mean, they can. Right. If that's what if that's what they want to do. We find out, though, it loses elections. And as we've said, not just to here in 2017, it lost elections in 2018. It lost elections in 2019. It lost elections in 2020. It lost elections in 2019. It lost elections in 2020. It lost elections in 2022. It lost elections. And now it's gotten so extreme. They're not going to certify a county's votes. That's going to cost them a seat in Congress and a statewide constitutional seat. Joe, it is absolutely political malpractice. And what are the House

Republicans doing this week? They're just steering into this landslide band of idiocy. I mean, they're putting Lauren Boebert on their policy committee. They're giving Marjorie Taylor Greene back her committee assignments. They're refusing to condemn Donald Trump for going to a white supremacist meeting. Like they are continuing to let the crazies in their base drive this party and they're driving it straight off. And to make your point, every single statewide election denier around this country lost the election. And yet they steer right into it. No one's walking to Arizona to say to those those locals, you guys are killing us. Instead, Kevin McCarthy's doubling down on it.

It is just terrible politics. So, Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy has issued a new warning to the House Select Committee investigating January 6th. In a letter to Chairman Thompson, McCarthy said the committee's work will be investigated once Republicans take the control of the House in January. McCarthy, who did not comply with a subpoena to appear before the committee, demanded the panel preserve its records. House rules already require that the committee do so, and they'll be doing so for a number of reasons. Anyhow, McCarthy goes on to accuse the panel of not telling the full story of January 6th,

the attack on the Capitol, and pledges to hold hearings on it in the future. Speaking to reporters off camera yesterday, Chairman Thompson responded to McCarthy's letter saying in part, he had a chance to have members on the committee. We will do our work and we will end December 31st. If he wants to conduct whatever he wants as speaker, it is his choice. Joe, what is Kevin McCarthy doing? Is it another hot stove thing or? Well, you know, as as Ronald Reagan would say, there they go again. It's David Ignatius.

There they go again. It's David Ignatius. There they go again. Again, they learned absolutely no lessons from what has happened to them in 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020 and 2022. And instead, they're making all of these decisions and mistakes that it's framing a small House majority that Democrats will be able to use effectively against them over the next two years and into the 24 election. But McCarthy, instead of trying to play to voters that they keep losing by talking about taxes, by talking about balanced budgets, by talking about regulatory for whatever Republicans want to talk about to get those suburban voters back. They're doing these extreme things, virtue signaling, talking about

investigating the investigators. It was a disaster for Durham. It'll be even worse for these people. And defending, coming out and demanding justice for the January 6th rioters and insurrectionists. These are the very people who lost the suburbs for Republicans, who lost the 22 election for Republicans, who lost the 2020 election for Republicans, who lost all of those other elections for Republicans. And they're running straight toward the same tornado that keeps knocking their house down there. You might say they're ignoring the first rule of holes, which is stop digging. Yeah. And they keep they keep digging.

They seem determined to relitigate the Jan 6 hearings, do all the things that they would have done if they'd taken part in the hearings in the first place. I think we're going to have a circus in the House no matter what. No sign that the Republicans will see that getting something done legislatively makes more sense than these sort of agitaprop moves. The action that we need to focus on, I think, is going to take place in the Justice Department and in federal district courts. The conviction of Stuart Rhodes of Oath Keepers for seditious conspiracy is a big deal. Yeah. It's obvious that our attorney general, Merrick Garland, sees it as a significant precedent or basis for further prosecutions of that type. They're seeing that courts will accept this very deep description of what happened January 6th.

And if Merrick Garland decides to keep going with that and move up and take the evidence that the January 6th committee provides and begin to turn it into actual legal cases, you know, Kevin McCarthy in the House. Yeah, it's a parallel universe. All the hearings they want. But the action in the litigation and the decisions people will face about whether to cooperate or whether to face really significant prison time is that that's going to be, I think, the issue of the next year, not not all this. Yeah. I mean, look, I think you have on one hand, you have the Republican Party on every level,

the battle for the RNC chair, whatever Kevin McCarthy's strategy is, which I don't think it's three dimensional chess. I think he doesn't know, you know, and Marjorie Taylor Greene's participation in policy committees. There's an identity crisis playing out here. Who are they for? What are they for? What are they fighting for? And then on the other hand, to David's point, you have Merrick Garland and the Department of Justice.

And I think he deserves and they deserve some credit here. I was speaking with the Department of Justice official a couple of weeks ago who described Merrick Garland as a quiet storm, somebody who builds. That is what he is doing. They went big with Stuart Rhodes. There are more seditionists. They are going to continue to prosecute. He's obviously has Jack Smith in charge, who is a guy who is prosecuting war criminals. This is a complete badass guy who's doing this and they are doing serious work here. Well, there's an identity crisis going on. And that work won't stop, Joe. So given that, isn't this the opportunity for the Republicans, whether it's the right thing to do, whether they want to win or whether they just don't want to look stupid,

sort of trying to investigate January 6th while the DOJ is doing their job. Wouldn't this be the moment to press reset and find that old Republican Party again that actually had conservative values and policies? Yeah, well, you would think so. Again, we talk about it every day. If you're not going to do it for the right reason, do it for the wrong reason. Just do it. Move away from the extremism. I mean, again, this is this is simple, simple math. You know, Jim, this is simple math. You've run elections. I've run in a few small elections on a congressional side. And we all we all had

our extremists. Right. We all had the people in the crowds. You're like, OK, they're over there. You leave that door. They're saying crazy things. And I'm not going to get you on camera with them saying. Right. So they're extremists. They've been extremists on both sides. The important thing is you stay away and you try to mainstream. You try to mainstream your message like the Democrats. Democrats, I think we both agree, should have gotten slaughtered this past year. They should have been wiped out because of inflation, because of crime concerns, the chaos at the southern border. That may not mean anything to some people, but that means a hell of a lot to people in Arizona. It means a hell of a lot

to people in other swing districts. But they're playing to the most extreme in their caucus. And in so doing, they're saying the hell with voters in the Philly suburbs. They're saying hell to the swing voters in the Detroit suburbs. They're saying the hell to the all important Atlanta swing voters in the suburbs there. And it keeps coming at a cost, does it not? It really does, Joe. And you just look at the election we just had. These swing voters rejected the Republican Party. History taught us that Republicans should have picked up 30 House seats. They should pick up an average of four Senate seats. decide American elections, who thought inflation was bad and everyone thought they were going to go to the Republicans, went to the Democrats by double digits because the Republicans drove them there. The Republicans literally said, we are just about election denial. We're just about

kind of these conspiracy theories of our base. And voters rejected it over and over. And instead, Kevin McCarthy is steering right back into it. It is just political malpractice, Joe. It doesn't make any sense. Yeah, it is. And Willie, again, let's take a step back and remember what you and I heard, what Nika heard, what we heard from Democratic friends, from liberal friends for the year leading into the election. And it was, man, the Democratic Party. I mean, I don't think in New York, I don't think they get it on crime. I don't think they get it on quality of life issues. I know people on Twitter, progressives

on Twitter hate hearing this, but man, liberal Democrats constantly talking about wokeism. They're hurting our party. And there were all of these these complaints about how extreme the Democratic Party was getting and why they were going to lose voters. Republicans said, we'll see you're crazy. We'll we'll we'll we'll throw in a couple of thousand dollars of crazy on top of that. And they did. So you have swing voters going, OK, yeah, some of the woke stuff on the college camp. I don't like that. I don't know if Biden has an answer on inflation, but what are the Republicans talking about? I got these 14 mailers about trans swimmers, and I think they're like two or three in our state. So I guess I'm going to go with the Democrats. That's exactly what happened.

The Republicans had this race in their hands. Kevin McCarthy was right. They should have picked up 60 seats. And they didn't. They blew it. And on the candidates, they blew it on the candidates. See Arizona, see Michigan, see Pennsylvania, go down the list, and see Georgia, where we're talking now five days away from this runoff election. Former President Barack Obama heading back to the state

to rally for Senator Raphael Warnock. Democrats hope the event will boost turnout as much as possible before the early voting window closes tomorrow. And there has been a ton of early voting record setting. In fact, this will be the second show of support for Warnock from the Obamas. Former First Lady Michelle Obama recorded a couple of robo calls for the senator to be used leading up to and on Election Day. As of this morning, more than one million Georgians already have cast their ballots in the Senate runoff. Meanwhile, on the Republican side, some supporters of Herschel Walker are worried he's taking his foot off the gas right at the end of the race. The New York Times reports the decision to skip campaigning over the crucial Thanksgiving holiday weekend has Walker's Republican allies airing frustrations and concerns about his campaign strategy in the final stretch of the overtime election against Senator Warnock. Democrats, they point out, have gotten a head start on Republicans in their early voting push and are drowning out the GOP on the airwaves, outspending them two to one. The paper continues. Time is running out fast for Walker to make inroads

with the moderate conservatives who did not support him during the general election. So, Jen Psaki, it's very rich that Republicans now five days away are realizing that Herschel Walker might be a bad candidate and doesn't campaign well. He hasn't taken questions from reporters. We knew months ago, Willie. We knew months ago. Exactly. Hasn't taken questions from reporters in two months. Apparently there's this new rule. Reporters can't get within 20 feet of Herschel Walker so that they can shout questions to him. But, but, but with all that said, there's a new Emerson poll today that has Warnock up only two points. Still kind of a margin of error race there. Yeah. Look, it's Georgia is a purple state. This is not a state, even with the strength of

Reverend Warnock as a strong candidate and a powerful candidate, it still is going to be a close race. There are some very good signs here, Willie, not just Herschel Walker's craziness every time he opens his mouth about vampires or whatever he may be talking about. Also, the fact that the early turnout numbers are so high. Women are turning out. Young people are turning out. These are groups, well, we don't know who everybody voted for, but are typically good for Democrats. And Democrats have been really focusing on turning out. Yeah. The other interesting sign to me in this race is that in the weeks post the election, the

Warnock campaign, the Walker campaign, their names are so similar. The Walker campaign was running ads on transgender, attacking transgender people. Right. This, to me, tells me they're still trying to appeal to conservatives and get them in line. And that is a better sign for Warnock. I just wonder, Joe, if actually they're not concerned about him not doing much in the final run of the campaign. Perhaps less is more at this point, because every time he gets on stage, it's crazy.

Yeah. From now on, from now on, when a candidate decides they're not going to debate, they're not going to go out and campaign aggressively and people are pushing the candidate, the candidate's going to go, yeah, but Katie Hobbs, Katie Hobbs, Carrie Lake was chasing a ghost and never caught her. It's still amazing how little Katie Hobbs did publicly. But she won, which Jim Messina, again, I always said, you can't beat something with nothing. Yeah, you can't beat something with nothing.

Well, I'm not so sure anymore. I know Katie Hobbs is a great public servant. She did extraordinarily well as secretary of state. All Americans should be very grateful for the strength that she showed when American democracy was on the line. And I salute her for that. As far as her campaign goes, nothing. She basically ghosted Carrie Lake and she won, which again goes back to our theme of the day, which is, again, this extremism that we're seeing in the House, this extremism that we saw in Arizona, this extremism that we're now seeing in Georgia in these these ads. I mean, it's just again, it's not working. It's malpractice. And yet they keep doing it over and over again.

They keep nominating these crazy candidates who are just terrible. And if you're going to run a Kerry Lake, then the Democrats should go away. I'm with Mika on Georgia. I think it's actually smart for Walker to just go away for a little bit. Don't talk. Don't talk. Please. Yeah. You look at the ad that Warnock has on the air right now. It is literally Hershel Walker talking for 60 seconds about vampires. Blithering. And it is just it's driving voters. And this is now a turnout election. After 300 million dollars of spending, there is not one swing voter left in Georgia. This is about turnout. And Democrats should let Hershel Walker talk all they want. Bring Barack and Michelle Obama in there to finish the turnout battle and win this election and get over it. And I was down in Georgia this summer because of the changes in the rules down there.

The Democrats were very focused on turnout. Yes, they were extra focused this cycle because of what had happened in the state legislature. And they were going to make sure they got the turnout. And that operation is still effective. And they got the court win. They got the court win on Saturday. Yep. All right. Jim Messina, thank you so much. Great to have you in. And still ahead on Morning Joe, the latest on the looming railroad strike and what Congress is doing about it. Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg will join us for more on that. Plus, our next guest says Ron DeSantis is full MAGA without the high drama. I guess that rhymes.

Mark Leibovich joins us with a look at his new piece on the Florida governor. Also this morning, we'll go live to the White House ahead of President Biden's state dinner with French President Emmanuel Macron tonight. You're watching Morning Joe. We'll be right back. All right, just about 33 past the hour. Beautiful look at Washington, D.C. A lot of people on their way to work already. Time to get up. Vice President Kamala Harris welcomed French President Emmanuel Macron yesterday at NASA's headquarters in Washington, D.C.

The visit offered the two countries a chance to show off their cooperation on aerospace technology. They discussed mutual agreements and commitments made during Harris's trip to Paris last year. Later, President Biden and the first lady joined Macron and his wife for dinner at an Italian restaurant in Georgetown. Biden tweeted this picture of the double date. Vice President Harris will co-host a luncheon for Macron at the State Department later today. And then the Macrons will join the Bidens for a state dinner tonight. And this is the first one, finally, of the Biden presidency. It's always the big one with the French president. So it's really an interesting trip, Mika, in part because I think Biden is trying to position Macron as the new leader of Europe.

Interesting. You have a much weaker Germany. Chancellor Merkel, a dominant figure, she's gone now. Britain's in a little bit of chaos. So I think there's a feeling that let's help Macron be the leader for Europe. Europeans are a little bit angry at the United States for, you could argue, getting our act together on what's called industrial policy. We're now acting the way Europeans traditionally have,

putting subsidies into what we think are going to be big, growing industries and doing what we can to get manufacturing jobs. Very European stuff. And they're angry about it. They're calling it trade war. Protectionism. Protectionism. So it'll be an interesting visit in that regard also.

My guess is that Macron will come out of this speaking like and maybe being the dominant figure now in European politics for a while. And Katty Kay, the backdrop, of course, the war in Ukraine. Yeah. And in some ways, President Macron has not been the easiest of partners for the Americans because he's had this habit of freelancing in some ways by talking to President Putin. He's been doing it even recently and they would much rather he didn't do that. But they know that he can help keep the Europeans together and heading into the winter with energy prices as high as they are in Europe. They need that assistance. But this is also something of a backstroke to Macron because of the deal that the Americans did behind French backs, effectively, over nuclear submarines and technology with the Australians that really irritate the French, irritate President Macron. This, I think, is a way of saying we're moving beyond that. We are showing we're making a good

faith effort to keep you on board in order to have a strong power in Europe. I'll bet you also that the White House is not entirely unhappy that there is a channel to talk to Putin for the moment. And they can pin it on Macron. In which it's necessary to talk to Putin. Macron has carefully tended that space. And it's not relevant now because the Ukrainians have no interest in negotiation. But at some point in the future, it will be relevant. And it was. I know when I was still there, I mean, President Biden would speak with President Macron before he spoke with Putin. He would speak with him after he spoke with Putin. So in some ways it was like speaking with Putin without speaking directly with Putin. I'd also say, David, I think coming out of this trip, there's,

you know, there's there's, of course, attention on the, as you said, the industrial focus and the IRA specifically in the subsidies the French want. But what is so valuable to Macron is this dinner last night in Georgetown and showing how close they are as leaders. I am the leader of the United States, President Biden, and I am the leader of France and of Europe. And that's a photo I think that will be very powerful for him. For sure. Joining us now, staff writer at The Atlantic, Mark Leibovich.

And Mark, you're taking a closer look at Florida Governor Ron DeSantis and his potential presidential ambitions. And you write in part, quote, he has impeccable bona fides as Donald Trump, as a Donald Trump disciple without being Trump himself, whom many see as the biggest loser of said dark election cycle. This has made DeSantis the GOP's hottest molecule. He's a full MAGA without the high drama. He is terrorizing all the right targets while Trump keeps blowing himself up in new and creative ways. The question is whether DeSantis' presidential hopes will perish as he starts

getting out more on the Iowa-New Hampshire dating apps. People who know him better and have watched him longer are skeptical of his ability to take on the former president. DeSantis, they say, is no thoroughbred political athlete. He can be awkward and plotting. And Trump tends to eviscerate guys like that. And Joe, I'll toss it to you. And it just I tend to agree with Mark, because especially thinking of that moment, I think it was during the debate. Yeah. Where Charlie Chris was asking him, will you run in 2024? And I know that the debate rules were that the candidates were not supposed to ask each other questions. But you really saw him physically stiffen up and become afraid and stare straight ahead. It was kind of strange body politics. Well, you know, it was interesting because I've never spent time with Governor DeSantis,

so I don't know. But I do know a lot of people in Washington, Republicans in Washington and Republicans in Tallahassee who've dealt with him. And I all hear the same thing. He's a really personally, he's a very stiff, awkward guy in Tallahassee. He's got an extraordinary amount of control in that town with overwhelming Republican legislatures. He holds a couple of press conferences. He loves attacking the media, especially younger women reporters, loves going after them. And he has this routine down, which helps him raise a lot of money, helps him be the

anti-woke candidate. But I just, Mark Liebervich, I'll bring you in. I keep hearing the same thing. Two words always attached to him as a political candidate. If he goes out on the national stage, those two words, glass jaw, a boxing term to say this guy, once he gets out on the big stage, won't be able to take a big won't be able to take a punch. I don't know if that's the case or not. Again, I've never met him. That's what Republicans who work with him say. And your story, your article is filled with stories like that. Yeah, it's true. I mean, and the thing is, it's not like he's going to tiptoe out into a friendly environment. Donald Trump is going to be waiting for him. And traditionally, Donald Trump does well with people who are not as comfortable in their, you know, in their skin as he is. He has a presence about him for better or for worse.

Um, you know, and in a weird way, the Republican party has, has tried to find the better bully in some ways. I mean, that's kind of been their play over the last, you know, since Trump came on the scene and, you know, hope that someone who has some self-control and who has less baggage than Donald Trump can, can sort of be their person. I don't see it. I also think that there's a whole tradition of, of candidates like DeSantis being overhyped. Then they come out and they, they underwhelm fairly fast. I mean, all the big donors are, are kind of holding their breath. And and look, DeSantis does have like a Scott Walker, Rick Perry vibe. Yes, that's a great way of putting Rudy Giuliani. 2008. That's a little.

Yeah. But there are some good options, Jen. I mean, aren't we waiting to hear whether or not Larry Hogan will run? I mean, I don't know. I mean, it seems like the Republican Party has an opportunity here to really turn a new leaf. Well, that's making the assumption, which I think we all support, that they want to pick a sanish candidate. I mean, I think to Mark's point in reading his piece, yeah, it reminded me of in a different way because less evil. But Democrats have done this before, too, where you kind of they find a candidate that they project all of their hopes, dreams and positions on. This person is the next person. Wesley Clark. Yeah.

Howard Schultz. Mike Bloomberg. And they are like paper tigers because they look good on paper. And then they start to go out and do the dating apps in Iowa and New Hampshire. And people. It's harder than it looks. It's much harder. Barack Obama used to say, you know, when you campaign, they lift the hood, they kick the tires.

When they do that, they discover things about candidates. Do they have charisma? What do they actually stand for? Are they fighting for me? Are they weird? Or do they have a glass jaw? I don't know that term. Are they weird? Are they have a glass jaw? I don't know that term, but yeah, exactly. I know that people close to Trump really believe that he can take on DeSantis and do to DeSantis what he's done to all of the other Republicans who have

tried to oppose him. And they say, wait, DeSantis has never been tested against Trump and Trump will just bulldoze him. That's what they feel. Let them do that, Mark. I mean, is that the, is there going to be a real kind of duel between the two of them? And maybe they both destroy each other and open the door for positive for another. Unless there's a viable third option. I don't know. What is that? I mean, I don't know.

Larry Hogan or someone else who who might run, although I don't see a Larry Hogan or Liz Cheney getting the nomination. Mike Pompeo. Mike Pompeo. Mike Pompeo. Are you serious? I mean, he sure wants it. And yeah, he's he's positioning himself to be the less crazy, you know, slightly less talk. Mike Pence is running.

The thing I thought that was interesting about DeSantis was that early on, he showed that he wasn't afraid of Trump. And my question about him, I don't know about the glass jaw that Joe was mentioning, but can he throw a punch? Yeah, right. He didn't look afraid of Trump. And that made Trump angry. You know, why aren't you coming to court me?

Ask me for my support. And DeSantis basically walked away and said, I'm not interested. And that was when the bubble around DeSantis began. Yeah, I think Trump is I mean, Trump himself has a glass jaw, by the way. I mean, we're going to throw that term around. I mean, Trump is not someone who takes well to that. I mean, he's deeply sensitive. And I also think that he's out of practice. I don't think I don't think Trump is as savvy. He's beaten down by by legal. He might be. He just might not. Yeah, I mean, he is. But I mean, I don't think he is as savvy. I don't think he's as vicious.

I don't think he is, you know, the unicorn that so many of us might make him out. So, Joe. Yeah. I mean, I can't imagine, Joe, that Donald Trump isn't slightly impacted by all the noise around him, whether it's Jan 6 or, you know, his tax returns, whatever else. Those are the things that really excuse my language, but that that pisses him off. I mean, he really will be very personally just griping all day long about that stuff. You know, and all of this, this conversation all underlines under underscores, I think, a bigger point, Mark Leibovich. And that is all we hear about is how deep the Republican bench is, how shallow the Democratic bench is. Republican bench isn't really that deep.

Like if you know you get them all together and you're like, oh, wow, OK, Trump or the Santas or Yonkin or whatever. I mean, Larry Hogan is far too moderate, far too rational for this version of the Republican Party. But you hear about this deep bench, but let's take them one at a time. Even Trump understands he's lost the suburban voters that I always talk about in Northern Atlanta. There's a reason I talk about him. He's lost those voters,

and even he knows he's never going to get about him. He's lost those voters. And even he knows he's never going to get them back. He's never going to get the suburban voters back in the Philly suburbs. You go down the line. He understands it's not happening. He could win the Republican primary. He's not going to win in general elections. You then go to DeSantis. And if you believe every Republican in Tallahassee, if you believe every Republican that worked with him in the Governor's Association, you believe every Republican who worked with him in Congress, they'll tell you that he just he doesn't have a personality. He's going he's going to get knocked out on the big stage. That's what they say. Not me. And then you go to Yunkin. I hear some people saying he's

not that effective a campaigner. So suddenly this Republican race that everybody thinks is going to be, you know, the thrill in Manila, Ali versus Frazier. Suddenly you look a little closer and you're thinking, man, this Republican race may actually be wide open after all. It could be, although, you know, the default there is that, well, I mean, Trump could win the nomination. Right. I mean, you sort of you say that almost as an aside. Yeah, that's pretty scary. I mean, I'm of the belief that if Republicans want to stop Donald Trump, they need to stop Donald Trump. I mean, they have to stop outsourcing this concern to to the Democrats, to the prosecutor X, counsel Y. And and look, I mean, DeSantis might not fear Trump like others have. He might not need to fear Trump as others have. But you need to you need to swing hard at

him. You need to go right at him. Yeah, he's vulnerable to a lot of things. Yeah. And you just like there are so many cases you can make about Donald Trump if you are a Republican, even if you if you emphasize the word conservative. Right. I mean, this used to be the bread and butter word of the Republican Party. And Donald Trump is an anti-conservative. I mean, he is he governed. He's a Democrat, actually. I mean, he almost he literally was a Democrat. Yes. But he I don't know. I just think that there are a number of ways to go at him. And I hope that DeSantis does, just because I think that that's a debate that Republicans need.

Well, this is a fascinating piece. It's online now for The Atlantic. Mark Leibovich, thank you very much for coming in to share it with us, Willie. Well, there's some news out of Washington where the House has approved a measure that would require rail labor unions to accept a contract they previously rejected. It would avert a nationwide rail strike ahead of the holidays, but the bill may face hurdles in the Senate. NBC News Chief White House correspondent Peter Alexander reports. President Biden celebrating the lighting of the national Christmas tree, but it's the threat of a looming railroad strike that could still complicate the holidays for Americans. A strike that could occur as early as next Friday could cost the economy more than a half billion dollars in its first week alone, according to one

estimate. Let me be clear, a nationwide rail shutdown would be catastrophic. The House for the bipartisan vote to avert a work stoppage, approving legislation that would force the rail companies and their workers to accept an agreement the White House helped broker earlier this year, giving rail unions a 24 percent pay raise over five years. But several of the unions rejected that deal because it failed to provide enough paid sick leave. The question now, will it get derailed in the Senate? Retailers and manufacturers are already racing to find alternate ways to move their products. Everything from chlorine for safe drinking water to clothes. Preparations are already in place a week or more out for the rail service. They're already having to find workarounds. That uncertainty is really poison for being able to plan in any sort of real way. Some Senate Republicans arguing Washington

should stay out of it. Why should the federal government force a contract on workers that they have explicitly rejected? And several Senate Democrats are demanding more paid sick leave. Mr. Secretary, how critical is it that the Senate approves this deal now? It is critical. Look, the U.S. transportation system has no substitute for well-functioning freight rail. This is not a time when we can afford to have a lot of maneuvers, any kind of politics introduced here. And Secretary Buttigieg joins us now live. Mr. Secretary, thanks for your time this morning. So this did pass through the House on a bipartisan basis. Have you spoken to members of the Senate?

Are you confident it'll make it through there and soon? I think it will. I hope it will. I'm going to be spending time with senators today, mainly to make sure they understand the implications of inaction for our transportation system. As you saw in the piece reported earlier, there is no substitute in the U.S. for functioning freight rail. And if a shutdown were to occur, that's not just shutting down our trains. It's really shutting down our economy. Immediately, you would see effects, including when it comes to inflation, prices shooting up because of the cost of shipping.

You would see water treatment plants, in some cases fairly quickly, running out of the supplies that they need. And you could have American citizens in cities around the U.S. being told they need to boil their water or resort to bottled water. Within a few days, you would start to see our ports unable to operate because they couldn't ship the goods out of the port so they would eventually get so congested they'd have to turn ships away. You would see our auto industry very quickly grinding to a halt because many facilities only have a couple of days of parts on hand. We estimate 765,000 layoffs in the first two weeks of a

shutdown with more to come after that. And there's no guarantee that those laid off workers would get their jobs back after a disruption ended. So my main concern is to make sure that the senators understand the implications of any kind of delay here with the clock ticking. Now, I do think it's, frankly, impressive to see how quickly, after Speaker Pelosi brought that to the floor yesterday, there was a strong bipartisan vote to enact that tentative agreement. You know, this town is not known for working quickly. So it was, I think, a reflection of the urgency of the matter that the House moved that with such a strong vote. Now we need the Senate to do the same, get a bill to the president's desk. And really, that bill needs to reach the president's desk this week or by this weekend

in order to avoid some of the initial effects for our economy. And the president has said that as well. They're still counting the votes, got to get to 60. Not clear that they have those votes just yet. Mr. Secretary, as you're well aware, the railroad unions are not happy about being forced into this position and having their strike blocked by the United States Congress with the backing of a president who often touts his pro-union credentials. What do you say to the unions this morning? Well, yes, look, this is obviously something that a lot of leaders are

looking at with reluctance. The president prides himself, and this administration prides itself, on being the strongest pro-union administration in modern times. What we're talking about is a tentative agreement that was reached by labor leaders and companies at the bargaining table, including that 24% pay raise, average six-figure pay for rail workers, and speaking to some of their other concerns about benefits and quality of life.

They have further concerns, very legitimate ones, when it comes to the ability to take sick leave. This reflects a compromise at the bargaining table that none of the sides thought was perfect, but is what it took to reach that preliminary accord. What I'm trying right now to make sure everybody understands is what would happen to our country if there were to be a shutdown. Mr. Secretary, let's change subjects really quickly and get to a subject we've talked about before, and that is air travel. We talked to you before when things weren't going so well. That's an understatement. You said wait till the fall.

I've got to say, Meek and I have traveled a lot this fall. I mean, almost all the flights are on time. Everything seems to be running very smoothly. There was a warning that things might get worse during Thanksgiving and Christmas. Thanksgiving, based on our relative stories, I mean, everything was smooth over Thanksgiving, too. So we want you to take, not you, but because I know you wouldn't do it by yourself, but everybody involved here, take a victory lap. I'm just curious what what so radically changed things that in June, July, August, it was an absolute

nightmare, it seemed for all Americans. And then a couple of weeks into September, things were running as smoothly or smoother than than pre-COVID. Yeah, we've really seen enormous improvement. You look across the Thanksgiving week, which was very busy for travel. In fact, Sunday, the busiest day for travel, I think, since before the pandemic in terms of the number of passengers that TSA screened. And cancellation rates held below 1 percent on average, which is a good sign. You can't ever get to all the way to zero with weather and things that come up. But if you're below 1 percent%, system is doing quite well. And that's compared to a summer where we saw really unacceptable levels of delays and cancellations.

What led to that improvement? Several steps that I was really pushing the airlines to take over the summer that, to their credit, they have. More realistic scheduling, trimming the schedule so that they were only booking flights they knew that they could support and serve. More aggressive hiring, including pay. You see a lot of airlines, including regional airlines, stepping up, offering much more competitive pay packages to their pilots. So these are the kinds of things that have contributed to major, major improvements. But I'm reluctant to use the words victory lap,

because even though I'm really proud of the steps that have been taken, especially proud of the aviation workers who got people where they need to go, the system is still not as resilient as I would like in terms of the staffing levels. So if you did have a double whammy of a couple of major storms hitting a couple of major hubs, for example, it would take a while for the system to recover. So we're going to continue to watch with a lot of caution going into the Christmas and winter holidays, but major, major improvements and really pleased to see the trajectory here. Yeah, no mission accomplished moment yet, but my gosh, things certainly have improved a great deal since this summer. U.S. Secretary of Transportation Pete Buttigieg, as always,

thank you so much for being with us. Thank you. Thanks for having me on. Good to have you. And David Ignatius, Jen Psaki, thank you both. Jen, you'll be back at 9 a.m. So, yeah, I guess. Coffee. Yeah. I'll bring you back some. Get me something. Exactly.