Morning Joe - Morning Joe 1/21/25

Episode Date: January 21, 2025

Donald Trump sworn in as 47th president

So this is January 6th. These are the hostages. Approximately 1,500 for a pardon. Yes. Full pardon. We hope they come out tonight, frankly. They're expecting it. Approximately 1,500 people. Six commutations. Were there any cases you didn't not commute or pardoned other people? We're looking at different things, but the commutations would be the ones that we'll take a look at. Maybe it'll stay that way or it'll go to in a full pardon.

That was President Trump last night in the Oval Office announcing pardons for people connected with the January 6th Capitol attack. That is despite previously saying he would consider pardons and commutations on a case-by-case basis and hearing condemnations from his vice president, JD Vance, and his nominee for attorney general, Pam Bondi, of those who committed violent acts. Also ahead, we're going to sort through the dozens of executive orders the president signed yesterday, focusing on the ones that could have a significant impact versus others that appear to be just for the

base. Good morning and welcome to Morning Joe. It is Tuesday, January 21st. Along with Joe, Willie and me, we have the co-host of our fourth hour, Jonathan Lemire. He's a contributing writer at The Atlantic, covering the White House and national politics. The host of the podcast on brand with Donnie Deutsch, Donnie Deutsch is here. Former Secretary of Homeland Security in the Obama administration, Jay Johnson.

And the host of way too early, Ali Vitale, stays with us this morning. So Donald Trump took the oath of office for a second time yesterday, becoming the 47th president of the United States. We heard that Trump several times throughout the day, we heard from him, beginning with his inaugural address from inside the Capitol rotunda, surrounded by family, former presidents, cabinet appointees, and tech billionaires. The golden age of America begins right now. From this day forward, our country will flourish and be respected again all over the world.

forward, our country will flourish and be respected again all over the world. We will be the envy of every nation and we will not allow ourselves to be taken advantage of any longer. During every single day of the Trump administration, I will very simply put America first. My proudest legacy will be that of a peacemaker and unifier. That's what I want to be, a peacemaker and a unifier. America will reclaim its rightful place as the greatest, most powerful, most respected nation on earth, inspiring the awe and admiration of the entire world. So, Jonathan O'Meara, you've been looking at the two, the two cabloids.

And there's your split screen. We've got the grim speaker with the Daily News and the golden age of America with the New York Post. And Willie, I think that about sums it up. What yesterday's festivities were for an electorate that was pretty much evenly divided. You know, there are a lot of people that listened to what he said yesterday, voted for him,

and said, yay, America, we're coming back. And then there were others who actually looked at data and looked at facts and realized that our economy is stronger relative to the rest of the world than it's ever been. Our military alliances strengthened over the past four years in a way they've never been. And that in fact, America militarily is stronger relative to the rest of the world than it's been since 1945. And yet, that speech, the events of yesterday, again, two Americas saw two completely different things, and as George Will wrote in his column, two Americas just did not understand the other

side. And there was one other thing that George Will added in his Washington Post column, and he talked about manners. That sounds very old fashioned. But he said it also, two Americas with a very different view of how we treat one another. And it just... We're just not used to looking at these events, seeing other presidents and other people who have sacrificed their all for this country just being trashed five feet away.

That's happened. That's happened now twice in history. But again, this is what Americans voted for. And the divide, again, is illustrated so clearly in these two New York tabloids. Two Americas who saw yesterday's events through two completely different prisms. Yeah, if you follow Donald Trump, if you watch certain cable networks and read certain newspapers, his inaugural address made complete sense to you. The case is that America is a nation in decline and he has arrived to save us, to rescue the

country. It was the same case he made, remember, in 2017 at his inaugural address. And you're right, yesterday when we were on the air, felt relatively conventional. Donald Trump shaking hands, arriving at the White House, having tea with the Bidens, all of those things, even walking into the rotunda there, right up until the moment he stepped to the stage and began speaking, as you said, with President Biden, Vice President Harris, all the former presidents sitting in that room, and just began trashing America in a speech that, as I said, will resonate with the people who support him and voted for him,

because that's the version of the story they've been hearing for several years now. And then he delivered on what he promised that a lot of people hoped were just threats, particularly in terms of emptying the jails of violent offenders around January 6th, almost 1,600 of them, and a slew of executive actions he took that again were things he had said he was going to do so Shouldn't be totally surprising but hoped to that someone could intervene somewhere along the way as JD Vance said a week ago Well, if you committed a crime if you committed violence against a police officer You should not come out of jail that was the messaging from people even who supported him. And, and Bondi too, as well. And Bondi said the same. It hurt.

Tom Tillis said the same as well. And there are a lot of other Republican senators this morning, obviously, trying to figure out what they're going to say. So, let's move through exactly what happened because it kind of went from the inaugural speech to the crescendo in the evening. After delivering his inaugural address, President Trump moved to Emancipation Hall, where he gave another speech to supporters

who weren't inside the Capitol Rotunda. This time, Trump aired grievances and attacked his political rivals, saying these are the remarks he was advised to leave out of his first speech. 2020, by the way, that election was totally rigged, but these are the, that's okay. It was a rigged election. You know the only thing good about it?

It showed how bad they are, showed how incompetent and frankly, historically, this is a much bigger event if that would have gone like it should have. Now the president chose to have his inaugural parade inside the Capital One arena because it was cold outside. The raucous crowd first heard from Elon Musk and Cash Patel, who touted the imminent return of America's glory days. The president then took to the stage and used the opportunity to sign the first batch of executive orders, among them issues related to climate policy, immigration, and rolling back DEI initiatives put in place by the Biden administration.

But the more consequential executive orders came last night inside the Oval Office. There, President Trump issued roughly 1,500 pardons and commuted the sentences of 14 others in connection with the attack on the U.S. Capitol on January 6, 2021. The pardons included hundreds of people sentenced to significant prison time for their convictions of serious felonies such as assaulting police officers with deadly or dangerous weapons. Additionally, Trump issued, quote, a full, complete and unconditional pardon to all other individuals convicted of offenses related to events that occurred at or near the United States Capitol on January 6th, 2021, a category that includes other rioters who assaulted law enforcement officers. Those with commuted

sentences include individuals associated with the Proud Boys and oath keepers who were convicted of seditious conspiracy. Some of those pardons included Enrique Tarrio, the former leader of the Proud Boys, who was serving a 22-year prison term after being convicted at trial of seditious conspiracy, a crime that requires prosecutors to prove that a defendant used violent force against the government. As the Wall Street Journal notes, the breadth of the pardons contradicted the case-by-case approach Trump and his allies had signaled ahead of his inauguration. And it flew in the face of admonitions from Republican allies who'd voiced opposition

to the notion of pardoning January 6th defendants who had assaulted police. Those included his own vice president JD Vance and his choice for Attorney General Pam Bondi. If you protested peacefully on January the 6th and you've had Merrick Garland's Department of Justice treat you like a gang member, you should be pardoned. If you committed violence on that day, obviously you shouldn't be pardoned. If you committed violence on that day, obviously you shouldn't be pardoned. Do you believe that those who have been convicted

of the January 6 riot, violent assaults on our police officers, should be pardoned? That's a simple question. So, Senator, I have not seen any of those files, of course. If confirmed and if asked to advise the President, I will look at each and every file. But let me be very clear in speaking to you. I condemn any violence on a law enforcement officer

in this country. So, Jonathan Lemire, a couple, I guess Willie said a week ago, J.D. Vance said, if you commit violence against a police officer, you should not be put out of jail. You look at Officer Fanon beaten in the inches of his life. And if you just want a split screen on the pardons, because I know all of us wish that none of the pardons were necessary yesterday and are concerned about what may come in the

future because of those pardons but you look at the two pardons the outgoing president pardoned a police officer who had the hell beaten out of him within inches of his life felt the need to do that and the incoming president pardoned the people who beat the hell out of the police officer. So tell me how did how did we move from what JD Vance was saying a week ago and what Donald Trump was saying about looking at these from a case by case basis to where we ended up last night with action so sweeping that it seems that Republican, even Republican senators are surprised. Yeah, we're seeing right there on the screen his Time magazine interview just after his election saying, I'm going to do this case by case and if they were nonviolent, I think

they've been greatly punished, but suggesting there would be a different category for those convicted of violent offenses. That said, let's remember his very first campaign event in this election in Waco, Texas where he had the first thing he did was step on stage and appear with the January 6th convict choir. So some of this has been telegraphed all along but it did accelerate and it grew more expansive despite what we heard from JD Vance just ten days ago, despite what we heard from Pam Bondi just last week. And Trump with, he and his closest advisors, now that they're in power, decided to go big, to have sweeping pardons, including for members of the Oath Keepers and Proud Boys, going

far beyond what even some of his closest allies wanted or even recommended here. Let's recall, of course, that some of these convicts, their sentences were handed down by Trump- Trump appointed judges. Let's remember of course this is the largest criminal investigation in the history of the Department of Justice. One has to wonder what happens now to the career officials in DOJ and attorney's offices US attorney's offices whether they will stay in place after this. Some of these people there were there were parties last night at the DC jail there were hopes that people would get out in time

to attend some of the inauguration events last night. This is what Trump's base wanted, and this was what he delivered. And let's underline that this is what his base wanted. He over-delivered. Well, this is what his base wanted, and in reading the news accounts this morning, you learned that after JD Vance said

that those rioters who beat the hell out of law enforcement officers after he said they should not get pardoned it was JD Vance who got attacked by the MAGA base saying that all needed to be acquitted and you are right. Donald Trump talked about this throughout the entire campaign. And this is what America voted for. This is what Democrats warned of. This is what Donald Trump campaigned on. And this is what Americans voted for and it's what they got. What I'm curious about, Jay Johnson, with obviously your background and extensive knowledge of law enforcement and dealing with U.S. attorneys. I'm wondering what the repercussions of this will be,

what the impact will be. For each one of those 1,600 cases, there's a federal prosecutor assigned, dedicated to the case, who's feeling pretty disenchanted this morning. I would not be surprised if we saw a mass resignation from the Department of Justice as a result of this. Going back to this issue of the executive orders. That's probably what some would argue, some would say. That's exactly

what the Trump administration wants. Well, somebody's got to prosecute violent crime in this country. Somebody's got to prosecute violent crime in this country. Somebody's got to prosecute organized crime in this country. Somebody's got to prosecute terrorism in this country. Somebody's got to prosecute bank fraud in this country. Let's not forget that. One of the problems with executive orders, and this is a nonpartisan, bipartisan statement, executive orders issued on day one of an administration drafted by a transition

team are done so without dealing with the bureaucracy that has to then go implement them. The cabinet officers are not even confirmed by the Senate yet. And so very often there's a unrealistic aspect to an executive order signed on day one. And let me just say there was reporting about that last night that and I'm gonna talk to Donnie about sort of the showbiz portion of much of the day. We always talk about trying to separate the ground noise from the signal. Most of the day was showbiz. Right, and he undercut his own attorney general nominee by doing what he did. Right, and obviously last night was the signal, not only the warning, but actually...

There were a couple. Yeah, there were quite a few. But that said, a lot of those executive orders, But, that said, a lot of those executive orders, according to reporting from the Wall Street Journal and others, I believe, were hastily written, won't hold up in court, and they'll probably have to do it all again. I call them the executive orders for the full employment of lawyers, judges, and courthouses. There will be a lawsuit associated with at least every one of these executive orders. Birthright citizenship. I learned, I don't know about you, you and I are lawyers, but I learned in sophomore

in college that you cannot change a provision of the U.S. Constitution by an executive order. And birthright citizenship has been enshrined in the 14th Amendment since 1868 to ensure citizenship for my enslaved ancestors. And it has been understood for over 100 years to meet if you are born or naturalized in this country and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, you're a citizen. Subject to the jurisdiction thereof has meant that an exemption for the children of diplomats and so

That'll be challenged in court Asylum will be a challenge by the way on that issue and on any of these issues it ends up at the Supreme Court And I don't think many court watchers believe that Amy Coney Barrett and John Roberts at the very least will Amy Coney Barrett and John Roberts, at the very least, will rewrite what the 14th Amendment has meant since right after the Civil War. I have to believe that there is a majority of this Supreme Court who will not just overlook the plain meaning and the plain understanding of a constitutional amendment. So Ali Vitale, we saw yesterday Speaker Johnson, we saw many members of the Republican leadership

standing smiling, clapping along while Donald Trump gave his addresses. We saw yesterday Speaker Johnson, we saw many members of the Republican leadership standing, smiling, clapping along while Donald Trump gave his addresses. I'm curious specifically about this executive order opening the jails and releasing all the January 6th convicts, many of them who committed violence with a fire extinguisher, a flagpole or a bear spray or whatever it is against police officers, many of them serving long prison sentences now free or about to be free. How will Speaker Johnson, how will Republicans that you cover every day on Capitol Hill react to this?

How will they rationalize this? Because they seem to have been able to rationalize everything Donald Trump does. Many Democrats coming out last night and saying, this is just an affront to our system of justice, which is these were jury trials. Juries of their peers convicted these people based on the evidence or many of these people pleaded guilty to the charges against them now free. What will Republicans say this morning? It's really the ultimate conclusion to the whitewashing that we've seen Republicans all

the way from Donald Trump down to rank and file lawmakers on Capitol Hill do when it comes to January 6th, I mean you show those images of what it was like outside the Capitol we know what it was like inside the Capitol and then you issue pardons you contrast that with the president coming in and issuing pardons callously as if this is not a building that still bears the scars of the trauma of that day every single time lawmakers and staffers enter its halls. You know, I had one lawmaker say to me that they were at the Capitol yesterday and they

watched as the news of the likely pardons was coming through the building and they watched as the Capitol police officer's faces fell. And certainly there is going to be that kind of a reaction within the halls of Congress. But it also strikes me that Trump was quite easily able to make good on a promise that he repeatedly made out on the campaign trail. Lemire is right to point out the way that this was always central when Trump was out campaigning, but also the fact

that he stood in the halls of the Capitol and reiterated the big lie, the idea that the 2020 election was rigged, was stolen, and that's the only reason that you then had people motivated and energized to go to the Capitol to try to disrupt the certification of votes that would have certified and underscored that Donald Trump lost the election. So I think people are not shocked. They knew this was coming. But I think my conversations with sources is there was a sense of incredulity.

As I was talking to someone who was a staffer on the January 6th committee, they just said, what a time to be alive. I mean, those are people who, in doing their jobs, received a presidential pardon preemptively for doing nothing wrong. And as you pointed out, Ali, this was central to his campaign. It was something he said out loud many times to great applause wherever he went, which is definitely going to raise a lot of questions for Democrats on how to move forward through that. Going to raise a lot of questions for Democrats on how to move forward through that, but I'm specifically interested Joe in

The Republicans who are right now taking part in advising consent on Trump's nominees for major cabinet positions specifically Pete Hegseth Tulsi Gabbard cash Patel and others Will they look at what happened last night and will that change their approach? others. Will they look at what happened last night and will that change their approach to looking at some of these nominees who some have a lot of questions about? Well, I mean, if history is, if history is any guide, probably not. That said, and we talked about this, John, before. Right now, even those in the Trump administration this morning would say, Tulsi Gabbard's heavy lift, RFK Jr. may be the surprise. And may be the surprise because, again, a lot of conservatives see him as pro-choice,

progressive, and a guy despite some of his quirky views and some would say dangerous views on health care, he's, you know, he may be a safe no for a lot of these conservative senators. I don't know, I guess the question would, and we can pass this around, I guess the question is, if anybody's challenged by this and what happened, it would be most likely Cash Patel that will raise questions in Tom Tillis' mind. Tom Tillis who said, you know, you can't, you can't release the violent offenders, people who beat the hell out of cops and several others.

And we've already talked about how the Pam Bondi hearing was sort of a hearing more or less on Cash Patel and what many believe to be his worst instinct. So I would, to Mika's question, I would probably say that if anybody were affected by this negatively, it might be Cash Patel. Yeah. The smart money would say few will be because Trump has demanded such and received such loyalty from Republican senators. But I think you're right to highlight the three who are most in jeopardy here.

We reported here yesterday, there are some Republicans who think Gabbard does not have the vote. It's raised eyebrows. She doesn't have a hearing schedule yet. There's state claiming it's paperwork issues, but I think there's also some suspicion that she just simply won't get there. Trump himself has said that she's the one

he's most concerned about. You know, RFK Jr. might face problems from the right. We talked about yesterday how former Vice President Pence is actually even trying to whip votes against him because of his views on abortion. But I think it's Cash Patel here that stands, Willie, to be the one who is potentially under the most scrutiny of what happened last night, because Patel has shown his only ideology is to do whatever Donald Trump wants.

And if he's already, if Trump is going to put his, and he has constitutional power to do it, but he puts his thumb on the justice scales last night and sort of undo what the DOJ has done, that's going to raise concerns, OK, is that and sort of undo what the DOJ has done, that's gonna raise concerns, okay, is that same sort of freedom, that same sort of deference to executive power, if that's gonna be what Cash Patel is gonna do with the FBI,

that may give some Republicans some pause. Donnie, though, if you watched yesterday's proceedings from start to finish, had the air among Republicans of a coronation. They talked about him. This was almost a divine event that his life was spared in Butler, Pennsylvania, so he could return and lead the country again.

The way they talked about him as the greatest president of their lifetime, you know all the language that was out there. It's hard to see any of them at this point, the way he's consolidated power, crossing him on any of these nominees. It was a marketing tour de force.. I mean look, like Donald Trump, hey Donald Trump, he's a brilliant marketer. And yesterday, I'm not talking about January 6th, leading up to January 6th, was marketing 101. He basically, in the executive orders, even signing them on stage in front of people, making it like a ceremony. He understands where business, entertainment, pop culture, politics, news comes together.

We look on stage and we say Bezos and all those people go, oh, this is the tech industrial complex. America sees that and goes, oh, these are our superheroes. There's a disconnect, Joe, you were talking about this, with what America, one side of America is seeing, what another side of America is seeing. He gives an executive order about calling the border crisis an emergency. And the Democrats go, well, but the crossings are at all times low.

It doesn't matter. It's what America wants to hear. What marketing is, is understanding what your audience wants and give it to them. That's what the Democrats have got to wants to hear. What marketing is is understanding what your audience wants and give it to them. That's what the Democrats have got to start to learn. Also that the drill baby drill part the Wall Street Journal said wait not only do we not have an energy crisis right now we're we're drilling more oil than ever before. So I want to, following up what you said, though, George Will yesterday. This is brilliant. I want to read what George Will said. And then I want to comment on it.

And this is something that I think Democrats, the media, all of us over the past decade have missed. Yes. all of us over the past decade have missed. Yes. I mean, we've all said parts of this. George Will put it all together in what we were seeing yesterday where we looked at things and go, ah, presidents don't do that.

Ah, you know, Ronald Reagan would never have done that. Ah, Barack Obama would have never done that. So George Will said. And he was actually he was quoting a Stanford Hoover Institution discussion where somebody said, objected to this statement, this is not who we are. Kotkin asked, who's the we? Trump, he said, is not an alien who landed from another planet. This is someone the American people voted for, who reflects something deep and abiding about American culture.

Think of all the worlds he has inhabited and that lifted him up. Pro wrestling, reality TV, casinos and gambling, which are no longer just in Las Vegas or Atlantic City, but everywhere embedded in daily life, celebrity culture, social media. All of that looks to me like America. And yes, so does fraud and brazen lying and the PT Barnum, carnival, Barker stuff. But there is an audience and not a

small one for where Trump came in from and who he is. And we saw, I was talking to somebody who actually has been very involved in the past in pro wrestling as far as owning pro wrestling divisions. And he said, he called me and he said, he quoted the George Will thing. He goes, are you watching the Capital One event? This is pro wrestling. I had to explain to my investors. They don't wrestle. They go out and they talk and they flex their muscles and they do all of these performative

things and the crowds scream and then they wrestle for five minutes and then they end it the same way. This George Will column gets to a point the Democrats need to understand that for half of America this embodies popular culture and he embodies what they want out of a president far different than what the other half of America has ever wanted from a president. Democrats instead of at this this point, if the Democrats brought me in, instead of saying what Donald Trump is doing wrong and all the things wrong, start to look at what he's doing right from a winning point of view. From a winning point of view, once again, he is giving the people

what they want. We can wring our hands, he's putting on a show. Half of them, yeah. Half, at least a little over half, or at least certainly half. He's putting on a show of them. Yeah half at least a little over half or at least certainly half He's putting on a show and he's very good at it And you know was interesting the Democrats talked about the joy of you know running whether they're there They're walking around their chests are out there. They're they're they're feeling like winners and the Democrats Feel like whiners and nerds, and that's got to change. That's got to go upside down. Well, and I couldn't help but look at Ali.

I couldn't help but look at last night's event at the Capitol One Center and not say that was not only focused on his supporters across America, but he also wanted Republicans on Capitol Hill to see this quasi-royal entrance, complete with trumpets, long trumpets blaring and the family coming in like royalty. And there was a purpose for it, and the purpose was to show his strength that I alone can fix it. I am your retribution.

Sort of a Louis XIV, I am the state. And to show Republicans on Capitol Hill just how popular he is with their base. As if they needed that reminder, but certainly he'll take the opportunity. I mean, this is the way that he's going to be able to continue to leverage control over any lawmaker that might think about stepping out of line,

whether it comes later down the road on reconciliation and pushing packages on taxes or immigration, but it also comes in the immediate term as we watch these confirmation battles for cabinet nominees continue to tick down. These reminders of, and I think coronation is the right word, these reminders of whatever mandate Trump and Republicans want to talk about, they all serve to underscore the stronghold that he has on Washington, D.C., on the levers of

power, on the way that government functions. And I do think it's really incumbent upon us as the media watchers and the reporters to take him literally, listen to the fact that on day one, a lot of the promises, if not many of the promises that he made on the campaign trail, were immediately translated into executive actions, however sloppy and however held up in court they will be, and that some of them are clean, cut and dry. Pardoning the January 6th insurrectionist is chief on that list. The fact that that can just be done with the stroke of a pen, I think it all served to

underscore for Republicans on the Hill, for Democrats on the Hill, for everyone in Washington and beyond, support him or not. But this is how it is now. And Democrats quietly reminding each other that this was a one and a half percent election. Yes. And that Republicans have a one vote majority in the House and a three vote majority in the Senate. Yeah, but I just want to add one thing to that. We can say that to ourselves.

He has co-opted America's heartbeat. I just, you have to- Well, if America's heartbeat is- I'm not saying you might not like that. Is family hostage families standing behind him in former hostages. No, America's heartbeat is, I'm gonna give you- Standing behind him, that marketing visual

is quite something. Listen to me, listen to me. Talking about J6. I'm talking, give you... Standing behind him, that marketing visual is quite something. Listen to me, listen to me. Talking about J6. Well, J6, people will absorb it because he gives them what they want in other places. This is just, I want the Democrats to learn that you can even get away with things as ridiculous as that if you're feeding people what they want to hear and what they need. Well, he actually told them. Told them. Again, he actually told them. Told them.

Again, he told them what he was going to do. He did. And he's providing the bread and the circuses as well as, say, Roman days that entertains them. But underneath that are things that he's doing, breaking one norm after another. You can't ignore the two. After, nobody's saying ignore it. After. I'm saying the opposite, actually.

After promising that he was going to break every norm from the very beginning. The host of Way Too Early, Ali Vitale. Thank you very much. And still ahead, Jay, stay with us. Still ahead on Morning Joe, our next guest says yesterday's transfer of power from Joe Biden to Donald Trump felt hollow. Richard Haas joins us to explain that. Plus, watch what Trump does.

Don't get distracted by what he says. We'll read from that new piece in The Washington Post. Morning Joe is back in 90 seconds. All right. Time now to take a look at some of the other stories making headlines this morning at 36 past the hour. Severe weather has brought dangerous conditions from Texas to the Carolinas as a major winter storm barrels through.

Forecasters say the snowfall could be historic. Flights have been canceled and widespread school and business closures are expected. The Taliban has freed two Americans held in Afghanistan. They were exchanged for a Taliban member imprisoned in the U.S. on drug charges. The prisoner swap was one of the final acts of the Biden administration. Two other American captives remain in Afghanistan.

And Hamas effectively back in control in Gaza after the ceasefire deal with Israel. Thousands of militants streamed into the streets to reestablish control over the battered strip. According to the Wall Street Journal, the open show of force after months of being pushed underground was a signal that aid groups and governments will need to cooperate with Amass as reconstruction efforts get underway in the coming weeks. An outcome Israel has hoped to prevent. Let's now bring in the President of the Council on Foreign Relations, Richard Haass. He's the author of the weekly newsletter Home and Away, available in Substack. Richard, feel free to join in the discussion about yesterday and the events there.

There's so much to talk about. But let's start with that. It was deeply unsettling, deeply unsettling yesterday to see these Hamas militants, the people who had started this horror show on October the 7th, but to see after everything, after all the fighting, them streaming back into power. Mr. Spiriting for two reasons. One is the one you get at. The Israeli war goal was an unachievable one.

And what the last two days have shown was just that, quote unquote, eliminating Hamas. You can't eliminate Hamas, even though they've been seriously degraded. They're the only armed force other than the Israelis in Gaza. And the Israel, know what you saw Joe? You saw the price of the Israelis not putting forward a political alternative. You can't beat Hamas simply with military force.

You need to show Palestine- By the way, you warned about that the first day. The first day you warned about that, David Ignatius came on this show the first day and say, Israel, we understand what you're going to do. Tell us what happens the day after the fighting ends. And nobody in Israel was interested in that. We're no closer to that than we were 14, 15 months ago. The other thing that was really depressing and distressing was the behavior of the crowd.

Here were these three Israeli women being released after 15 months in captivity, and the crowd was just out of control. And think about if you're the average Israeli, I don't care if you're on the far left, and you saw that, the reaction how to be, how in God's name can we ever make peace can we ever trust this these people living next door to us I thought that was just a massive massive setback. Well it was Willie it was a depressing bookend to what happened on October the 7th where you had people slaughtering Israelis and calling their parents, caught on tape, bragging, and their parents being so proud of them for torturing and killing Jews, and women being raped and butchered

in the streets and dragged around the streets, and Palestinians cheering. And there have been a lot of apologists that have been trying to say, oh, no, no, that didn't happen. No, no, it did happen. And it again, as Richard said, that's the thing that was so, so dispiriting was these three young women who had been through hell and back, they're there and the crowds surrounding them, just an absolute mob scene. Very, very ugly scene as they got home safely, thank God, eventually.

But Richard, I think this is the question. In the middle of this ceasefire, if this is the moment when perhaps Hamas had been degraded, humbled in some way because their territory had been completely destroyed effectively by the Israeli military. It appears in some ways the opposite has happened, which is to say they're telling their people, look what the Israelis did to our homeland. How can we ever make peace with them? Both narratives are coexisting. It's one of the reasons that you wouldn't want to bet your life savings on things moving

forward. You've got to change the narratives on both sides. Question is who goes first. Neither side seems particularly willing to go first. It's the reason that, look, the Middle East is the way it is. And yes, we can sit around this table and other tables and lay out what needs to happen.

But at the moment, I just, I don't see either side, either Palestinians or Israelis making it happen. Well, tell me, when are the hostages coming out? We got three hostages out. I thought there was some grand peace deal and the hostages were going to come out by the time Donald Trump was sworn in or there was hell going to be paid. We have three hostages out. When did the other hostages come out?

What this all showed, Joe, is that we'll probably get through phase one of this deal with 33 Israeli hostages getting out, over 1,500 Palestinian prisoners getting out. When do those hostages get out? Over the next 40 days, 42 days. The problem is phase two, where the rest of the hostages come out, that requires the Israelis to do two things, to completely withdraw from Gaza and to agree to a permanent end to the war. Given the kinds of scenes we saw the other day, I find it really hard to imagine we get

through phase four. No, it's not going to happen. And Donald Trump has said there's going to be held to pay if he's president. The Austin's are still there. There are two little babies. There are two little babies that are still being held in captivity. And what's going to happen not only to those little babies, but to the Americans that are still there?

What's going to happen to the elderly that are still there, that are still captives, and Hamas running around in control again? I will say Benjamin Netanyahu, who has been fighting the peace treaty and who had to stand up to the far-right extremists in his own government to get this ceasefire deal done because Donald Trump wanted it done. I'm wondering how much more tenuous his hold on power is this morning after that display in Gaza. It is more tenuous and Donald Trump's gonna have a big decision probably within what a month and a half He in order to get to phase two and in order to get the Saudi Israeli

Normalization to happen which Donald Trump wants to flesh out the Abraham Accords He's gonna have to get this Israeli government to change the narrative first They're gonna have to step up and basically start talking about a day after plan in order to get an Arab up and basically start talking about a day after plan in order to get an Arab stabilization force in Gaza. They're gonna have to lay out some type of a roadmap or vision to the Palestinians. That is going to be an interesting afterthought. Well, it's gonna have to replace Hamas. Yes, sir. Because that's what we heard all along. Hamas will never run Gaza again. We've said it on this show. Everybody said it. Hamas cannot run Gaza again,

and yet Hamas is running Gaza again. And I want to know, like, what's the plan? And when is there going to be hell to pay for, as Donald Trump said, if they're still hostage? There are little babies that are still held hostage. They released three. And thank God, thank God above for the three women that were released. But they're little babies that are still there. Every American administration in recent decades has come in wanting to pull back from the Middle East, focus on Russia, focus on China. Quite possibly Marco Rubio in the second month in the job is going to have to deal with this and basically go into the Oval Office And say Mr.. President if we want phase two to happen we have to lean on the Israelis to change the conversation

It's very early. What does that mean that means introducing some sort of a change in Israeli policy in terms of holding out some political future for the Palestinians Enough to get an Arab force to come into Gaza. Otherwise, you're going to have two forces in Gaza, Joe. You're going to have Hamas, and you're going to have the Israeli defense forces. If you want to create a changed reality with a third force, an Arab force... You're basically saying we're going to have to have a two-state solution if you want to get the Saudis, the Emiratis, and other Arab nations in there. You're going to have to put it on the table. Right. You're going to have to make it conditional.

The Palestinians are going to have to meet all sorts of checkpoints along the way. But yes, you're going to have to lay out some kind of at least an interim vision as a waystation to get to that point. This Israeli government is not constituted to do that. So there's going to be a day of reckoning sooner than the new administration is prepared for. All right. Yesterday, Trump ordered the Department of Homeland Security to end the humanitarian parole program for migrants fleeing several countries.

After the break, we'll talk to former Homeland Security Secretary, Jay Johnson, about that. We'll be right back. Secretary Jay Johnson about that. We'll be right back. Okay, welcome back. Live look at the Capitol at 10 minutes before the top of the hour. One of the executive orders signed by Trump ended a Biden-era immigration program

that temporarily allowed more than half a million migrants into the U.S. from four troubled nations. Yesterday, the Trump ordered the Department of Homeland Security to end the humanitarian parole program for migrants fleeing Cuba, Haiti, Nicaragua, and Venezuela. The program introduced in 2023 allowed migrants from those four countries to fly into the U.S. if they had a financial sponsor and passed security checks. Under the program, those migrants could stay in the U.S. for up to two years unless they found other ways to stay long-term.

It's unclear what will happen to the hundreds of thousands of migrants currently living in the U.S. who entered the country through the program? Well again more of what Donald Trump promised so no one should be shocked by this. What's interesting about these countries though? These are countries I would guess the new Secretary of State would welcome Refugees from from these communist countries, from Cuba, from Venezuela, with just an absolute thug for a dictator there, from Nicaragua. So I guess, again, none of us are surprised that he's doing what he said he was going to do.

These countries, though, very interesting because these are the refugees that Republicans usually embrace from communist countries. The types of refugees that Ronald Reagan embraced. So the suspension of the program, there'll be a lawsuit over that. There'll be a lawsuit over birthright citizenship. There'll be a lawsuit over birthright citizenship, there'll be a lawsuit over suspending asylum. You know, if it's not broke, don't fix it. For three years we had astronomically high numbers of illegal border crossings on the southern border. The Biden administration finally came to there's a right way and a wrong

way to cross the border and encouraged people to use the app to apply the right way. The numbers of crossings went down dramatically. And so what they were doing in the last year, in the last six months was actually working. It's not necessarily a long-term fix because of the underlying push factors. One of the many executive orders that I think is going to backfire is this remain in Mexico executive order. Why is that? To tell, it takes two to do that dance.

You can't just simply unilaterally decide that a Guatemalan has to stay in Mexico. Mexico has to agree to the program. And I suspect what this administration does not appreciate, it's a large reason why the numbers have gone down so significantly, is because the Mexican government is doing more on their southern border with Central America to turn these people around. If you all of a sudden unilaterally say to Mexico, you're keeping these people, it makes it less likely that they're going to cooperate with us and the numbers are going to go up. And on the subject of refugees, we should note Reuters reporting that nearly over 16,

over 1,660 Afghans cleared by the U.S. government to resettle in the U.S., including family of active duty personnel, active duty U.S. military personnel, had their flights canceled under President Trump's order suspending U.S. refugee programs. So there, Richard, their fate is in limbo as well. People who have taken real chances for the US government. But weigh in on that and also your thoughts on Trump's inauguration speech yesterday. And it's frankly lack of foreign policy discussion except for bringing back manifest destiny. Look, the Afghan decision is-

It's just- It's immoral. These are people who are totally at risk because they were closely with the Americans when we were there for 20 years. And to suddenly leave them in limbo, it's not even limbo, they're just physically going to be and politically going to be vulnerable. Well, which is, by the way, exactly what Donald Trump supporters said about what Joe Biden did after exiting Afghanistan. You know, Jay, just one thing on what Jay was talking about, excuse me, Mr. Secretary,

I was talking about was, you know, here we are, we're threatening tariffs against Mexico. We are calling the Gulf of Mexico and now the Gulf of America. At the same time, we want Mexico to cooperate with us on immigration and have asylum applicants be able to stay in Mexico. It's almost as if the speech was written At the same time, we want Mexico to cooperate with us on immigration and have asylum applicants be able to stay in Mexico. It's almost as if the speech was written by committee and people didn't look at different parts. Speech as a whole, let me just say, in addition to what George Will was writing about correctly,

just the lack of grace notes. This wouldn't have taken so much to have one nod towards Joe Biden and say thank you for all your efforts to bring the hostages back out of the Middle East. Just one nod towards Joe Biden and say thank you for what you all your efforts to bring the hostages back out of the Middle East. Just one nod, one effort to bring the country together. This was a speech to the base, nothing about reconciliation or bringing the country together. On foreign policy, you know, no mention of our enemies, no mention of our allies. What there was was mention of William McKinley, manifest destiny. You know, it's easy to make jokes about Mexico and Greenland and the Panama Canal. By the way, there was a threat, we will take back the Panama Canal.

Right. Misstatement of reality, the Chinese aren't running it, United States isn't being discriminated against. What really worries me about this is there's, if you add it all up, there's a pattern here. It looks as though we're saying, we've got a special role in the Americas. Mike makes right, we're gonna control the Americas. You know who was really happy to hear this speech? Vladimir Putin and Xi Jinping.

Why? It sets up a world where the big boys run their neighborhoods. That means they've got their sphere of influence in Europe, i.e. Ukraine. Xi Jinping's hearing this going, oh good, this means I've got Taiwan. What was very worrisome about this, Trump seems to have wanted to throw out the order

that we've had that's worked pretty well for 80 years and basically substitute a different order. So I actually take all these talks about the canal in Mexico and Greenland and the rest, I take it seriously because there's something afoot here. Again though, this is something that he's talked about for decades. Why is the United States spending all this money overseas? We should spend this money at home. Why are we defending Europe or Japan? Why aren't they footing their bill? And again, for many of us, that makes absolutely no sense because America has thrived in a way that no other country in history under this approach, where we actually are allies with Europe and Japan, and between

us we have over 60, 65 percent, maybe 70 percent of the world's wealth. It's worked pretty well, but you are right. It's almost like going back to the Monroe Doctrine where we'll take care of our neighborhood, Putin you take care of your neighborhood, she you take care of your neighborhood. But I just don't know. I don't know that Republicans follow that, Mr. Secretary, in the Senate. We were talking earlier about two Americas. There's a disconnect between what Donald Trump declares and says, and basic reality. I remember eight years ago when I was watching his inaugural address, sitting there as designated

survivor in my undisclosed location, and he started talking about American carnage. I think, what is he talking about? I had the same reaction George W. Bush did, and this is weird stuff. And yesterday, he just simply declared, this is the golden age. This is the golden age of America, right now. Well, is it the golden age of America to deny asylum to a lot of desperate women and children trying to get out of Venezuela and Cuba? Is it the golden age to rewrite the Constitution, to deny birthright citizenship?

I don't think so. That's not what this country is. Well, the only thing I will say, and write it down right now, Americans wanted out of Afghanistan until we get out of Afghanistan and the Taliban had the country in about 24 hours Americans wanted out of Iraq including myself after 10 years a Seven years we get out of Iraq and we created a void That ice is filled for several horrifying years and everybody's saying they want to come home

But those people maybe they don't remember what happened on 9-11, but I will say that's going to last up until the moment where there's a catastrophic event because we are isolationists again. And when that happens, Americans will throw their arms up in the air and say, how could our leaders in Washington have let us down again? It's just it again. This is this is not sustainable I'm sure Sam what seems to be missing is just very quickly two points One is that all we're spending on the world is less as a percentage of our economy is less than half our Cold War Average right less than half last I checked we did pretty well during the 50s and 60s.

So the idea that our problems are at home or because of what we're doing abroad is simply not true. Last, Donald Trump seems to be missing the point that we do things in the world when we help our allies, we're helping ourselves. The idea that foreign policy is only about costs and not benefits seems to be missing. And you're right, the day will come when people will understand the costs of not helping. Richard Haass, thank you very much. I hope it doesn't, but history shows us we cannot hide from history.

Former Secretary of Homeland Security Jay Johnson, thank you as well.