Morning Joe - Morning Joe 12/15/23

Episode Date: December 15, 2023

Biden calls for two-state solution after Hamas war

unemployment is down to 3.7 percent inflation is down to 3.1 percent gas is down to three dollars and ten cents a gallon but this biden is terrible he's leading us to a depression trump asked supporters on wednesday to name one thing that has gotten better under biden and i don't know there's a lot i can think of a lot of them but i think maybe number one is we're drinking less bleach. Good morning. Welcome to Morning Joe. It is Friday, December 15th. Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer is calling Republicans bluff on border security. He's delaying the upper chamber's recess in hopes of hammering out a deal on foreign aid,

which includes critical funding for Ukraine. We'll get into that. Also ahead, how the Biden campaign is trying to capitalize on the impeachment inquiry into the president. Plus, Rudy Giuliani's defense team takes a very odd strategy in closing arguments in his defamation case. Tell you about their pitch to the jurors. With us this morning, we have columnist and associate editor for The Washington Post, David Ignatius, member of The New York Times editorial board, Mara Gay, host of the podcast On Brand with Donny Deutsch, Donny Deutsch, and the co-founder of Punchbowl News, John Bresnahan. So, Joe, it looks like the Senate

may be coming back in for a day or two to try to figure this out, but still a long shot to get this deal for Israeli aid, for Ukrainian aid, because it is tied to immigration. I think it's a long shot. I think at the same time, it's one of these things that, you know, people run around with their arms there. Again, it's like the extending, you know, raising the debt ceiling. They always find a way through. They're going to find a way to support aid to Israel. They're going to find a way to not let Vladimir Putin have the keys to Kiev. They're going to find a way to come up with a really tough deal on the border. The Biden administration doesn't want to seem too eager right now in the opening rounds of the negotiations. I think they'll get there.

I think the more interesting thing is what basically the Roberto Duran defense in Rudy Giuliani's case yesterday, where the defense, where Rudy's defense lawyers basically went, no, Moss, he's crazy. He's a flat earther. What do you want us to do? I mean, I didn't even not even much of a defense. I mean, the guy the guy I think is going to be financially ruined because he's lied about these two workers. Their lives were put at risk. Time and time again, Giuliani would go out, say terrible things about the court, say terrible things about them. But again, his own defense attorneys repeatedly called him a flat earther, basically said he was crazy, couldn't help himself.

And I mean, looking at that picture, who in the world would come to that conclusion, Willie? I mean, it has been an extraordinary ride. So we're in the penalty phase of this. Now, how much money are the two election workers, Ruby Freeman and Shea Moss, going to get? It looks like it's going to be a big number, as you say. But at the beginning of this, when he was found liable, he did say in filings, Rudy Giuliani, I said things that weren't true. I made things up about them. And for that, I'm sorry. Then he comes here to the penalty phase and he goes out in front of a bunch of cameras and said everything I said was true. He's been all over the place. So then we land in a place, as you described, Joe, yesterday,

where his lawyers just went out and said, he's like, they call them a flat earther. You weren't making that up. He's like a flat earther who just believes all these lies and will not give up on these lies. And so I think what you can expect and perhaps a message to other people as we enter another election, he's going to he's going to have to pay a lot of money and he doesn't have much money left at this point. He's had to have Donald Trump, you know, fundraisers for him at Mar-a-Lago. He's have to give up a lot of money. And the lesson, hopefully, perhaps, is that you cannot attack people with lies in this way that turns their lives upside down and causes them so much pain. He's in trouble here.

Yeah, no doubt about it. No doubt about it. And also fascinating. We've got David Ignatius back. Willie, I can't wait to hear his take on what's happening in Israel. A lot of things going on there. A big split. Why don't you get us to the news there and then we'll get David's read on the latest. Well, back and forth, not only in the war itself, but between the United States and Bibi Netanyahu. Yeah. So Israel continues to bomb parts of southern and northern Gaza. And now the Biden administration urging in even stronger terms, Israel to end its large scale ground campaign. At least the White House says it wants Israel to transition to a lower intensity operation in Gaza, believing that could save civilian lives. National Security Advisor Jake

Sullivan relayed that message to Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and other Israeli leaders yesterday, suggesting they adopt more surgical tactics like sending commandos to kill Hamas leaders and to rescue hostages. According to the New York Times, officials say the White House wants to see that change in around three weeks or soon thereafter. But Israel appears determined to pursue its current military operation, telling the Biden administration the war with Hamas will last several months.

President Biden was asked about America's plan, its idea for Israel, yesterday. I want them to be focused on how to save civilian lives, not stop going after Hamas, but be more careful. The push for a new phase of the war comes as a U.S. intelligence assessment has found almost half the munitions Israel has used in Gaza since the war began are unguided, known colloquially as dumb bombs. That's according to two sources familiar with the matter. Dumb bombs are not as accurate, of course, helps to explain the war's huge death

toll. So, David Ignatius, you are just back from Israel. What is your sense of how Israelis are feeling about this war and how they're feeling about Benjamin Netanyahu's prosecution of the war? So, Willie, I have to be honest, I spent almost all my time on this trip in the West Bank. I wanted to take a look at what Palestinians are experiencing, what daily life is like for them, and most important, whether the hopes that President Biden and I think people around the world have for moving toward a Palestinian state are realistic, given the level of settlement activity and settler violence by extremist settlers in the West Bank. So I did a lot of close up reporting on that. It was very moving to see the experience of Palestinians in

the West Bank. I don't think it's about to explode in another Gaza-like war. On the big story that you're covering, there's no question that Jake Sullivan went to warn the Netanyahu government that we really are nearing a point where U.S. and Israeli interests don't coincide. We think that there's a time coming when this war has to be fought on a more limited and careful basis, far fewer civilian casualties. I think the real split is going to come on these day after issues. The Biden administration is convinced that the answer is to work with Saudi Arabia, other Gulf states, Jordan, Egypt, toward a real Palestinian state with real power using the Palestinian authority that's now in the West Bank, moving its people into Gaza. That's something that Bibi Netanyahu strongly opposes.

And I think what we're heading for, to be honest, is a U.S. offer that this government can't accept, which will lead into elections and perhaps a successor to Netanyahu. I think that's where we're heading, but it'll take a while. You know, David, we don't understand it. I think in America, we don't understand on the show how a guy whose government had a warning, had the attack plans from Hamas for a year and did nothing about it, had repeated warnings about it leading up to it, did nothing about it, had his people in Qatar who asked the month before the attacks to the Netanyahu government, Qatar asked, hey, do you want us to keep funding Hamas to the tune of billions of dollars?

They've given a billions of dollars to the year years at Israel surging. And then after the attacks, sat back and did nothing for the most part for six, seven, eight, nine, ten hours. And we don't understand how Israelis come on and say, well, yes, yes, all that's bad, but we've got to fight this war first. I mean, that's like that's like saying you're you're you're letting Neville Chamberlain take you through World War II, except worse. I mean, it's certainly an imperfect analogy. I think Neville Chamberlain would fight a much more effective battle than even Benjamin Netanyahu has done. But the question is, how do you have somebody who failed on every front, knowing the attack was coming, continuing to fund Hamas through Qatar and then not acting for six, seven, eight, 10 hours to protect Israelis being raped, beaten, slaughtered,

killed, kidnapped. How does that guy stay in power? How do you how do the Israelis say, no, we don't trust him at all, but let's let him finish the war. Well, Joe, I think at first, many of the things that you said, sharply critical of Netanyahu, I hear from Israelis in Tel Aviv and Jerusalem. There is a sense of really catastrophic mistakes having been made. Bibi polarized the country in the year before Hamas's invasion, and everybody in the Arab world could see it. Israel was more sharply divided than I've ever seen it in 40 years of covering the place

because of Netanyahu's unrelenting campaign supporting his right-wing backers who wanted radical changes in the Israeli judiciary. That did weaken Israel. So I think it's a question of when, not if, about Bibi leaving. There is a view in Israel that you need to fight on through. The middle of a war is not a time to change leaders. There is now a broad war cabinet that includes many Gantz who would run against Bibi if there was an election tomorrow and other people who've been who've been critical of him. But David, David, we have found we have seen and I've heard this from members of the Trump administration as well as members of the Biden administration. Benjamin Netanyahu is not an effective leader. But for the United States, Netanyahu's government would fall.

Israel would be in severe, in dire straits. At what point does the United States let the Israelis know we're standing behind you, but we are not going to keep fighting? You don't get a blank check for a guy that sat back and had the attack plans in his government for a year, continued the funding of Hamas through Qatar, and did nothing the day that Israeli women were being raped and babies were being shot and burned and grandmothers were being killed. Like what stage does the Biden administration say that? Because I know American taxpayers don't want to keep funding a war that this guy is running when he's not only damaging our reputation across the globe, He's damaging Israel's reputation across the globe. And he can't be trusted. So, Joe, two points. I mean, first, obviously, we never want to blame Bibi Netanyahu

or any other Israeli for raping Israeli women. No, no, no, no, no, no. I was talking about I was talking about because they didn't they they didn't do anything while that was happening for five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten hours. So there was a long delay. That's what I was saying. He's going to pay for it politically. I think we are now in the season where the United States is trying to develop a position for what the day after looks like. That's clearly enough to find that it contains an offer that this government's, Bibi's alliances with the people who care more about their West Bank

settlements than they do about Gaza. That's how they got into this mess. They had their eyes focused on the West Bank and pro-settler members of Bibi's government who were relentless in that concern. And the U.S. is going to, I think, is going to say, the way forward requires you're accepting a Palestinian state and you're accepting a role for the Palestinian Authority, which you hate. And it's going to be such a forceful presentation. This government, I don't think, can accept it. And so there'll be elections.

And we'll see whether Israel is prepared to elect a government that could actually move forward. And this is going to be hard. I toured, spent three days looking at these settlements. Do you know, Joe, there are 700,000 Israelis who are living in the West Bank, 700,000. So when we talk about a Palestinian state, you've got to think, how are those some of those settlers going to be made to leave the country? What government is prepared to make them do that? Those are the issues I hope President Biden, Jake Sullivan, Secretary Blinken are thinking about now, because those are the ones just over the next hill that they're going to have to deal with. And again, Willie, it's been Netanyahu who has known cynically over the past 10 years,

as he's done everything to stand in the way of a two-state solution. That's why he's focused on the West Bank. The more illegal settlements he can put up in the West Bank, the less likely it is that they're going to be able to get out and have a two-state solution. So again, we're not blaming Benjamin Netanyahu for the terrorist acts. We're saying that those terrorists that were committed, those acts were absolutely, absolutely just disgusting war criminals. Hamas needs to be rooted up. It needs to be destroyed. And those people that did that need to be brought to justice and they needed to be they need to be treated as harshly as possible. We can we can hold that that belief in this end and also in this end, say we want to do what is best for Israel, what is safest for Israel.

And even the Israelis understand Benjamin Netanyahu's path forward is a dead end. He has been focusing on the West Bank and focused on the West Bank so much that he had billions of dollars siphoned to Hamas through the years through Qatar. So he could focus on the West Bank and try to pay Hamas, a terrorist group that said they wanted to kill Jews. See, that's the thing to remember, too, that we all know who Hamas is. We've always said Hamas's goal is to kill Jews. They can't be trusted. They need to be rooted out and destroyed. But Benjamin Netanyahu, knowing that, was still having billions of dollars siphoned to this terror group through Qatar so he could focus on causing problems in the West Bank.

And with all this, it really is striking to see how far apart now publicly in many ways the White House and the prime minister of Israel are on a two state solution, for example, and now how this war should go forward and to have Netanyahu effectively saying, thanks for the advice. We're going to do what we want to do here. By the way, we're going to talk to an advisor to Benjamin Netanyahu coming up a short time from now. We'll put some of these questions to him. Meanwhile, in Washington, there is potential progress this morning in a Senate deal on immigration reform. Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer announced the chamber will delay its holiday break and return next week to try to hammer out a deal on the border.

Something Republicans say is crucial to winning over their votes to pass more funding for Ukraine and Israel. Chief Democratic negotiator Senator Chris Murphy of Connecticut said negotiators will work through the weekend. But Republican Senator Lindsey Graham was dismissive about a possible deal, and House Republicans also were skeptical. They haven't written anything down. We've been doing this for 90 days. There is no legislative text. The White House just got involved three days ago. You expect to run out the clock and get it done.

I look forward to voting no to a bad deal next week. I am not going to be pressed to do something that doesn't make sense. Our position in the House has been clear from day one. Secure the border. We've not changed. Would you come back if they were able to, let's say, strike a deal next week? Well, I would say that depends on what this deal looks like. But historically, when the Senate cuts a deal amongst the Senate, it's typically a bad deal for the country. So, John Bresnahan, you are our insider up there on Capitol Hill. Tell us what this is. Is there really potential for a deal? Is this kind of

wishful thinking with the Senate suggesting maybe it will come back next week to get something done? And what is the proposal that the White House says it could support to get something done here? Yeah, I mean, I think Joe had a really good point before. You know, there there's always a chance, you know, they already talks gloom and doom and then there's some deal emerges. I don't know. In this case, I'm not sure there is a sweet spot on immigration. The Senate has passed a gang of eight bill back in 2013 and it got shot down in the House. Immigration is one of the toughest issues Congress deals with. So I'm not sure even Republicans can agree amongst themselves. Forget about the White House and agreeing with

the Republicans or the Democratic leadership in the House and Senate agreeing with the Republicans. I'm not sure you could get a deal between House and Senate Republicans on an immigration bill. So I think this is really a difficult issue. I mean, we're talking about parole. We're talking about asylum. We're talking about detention. Every time that the White House moves toward Republicans, it's got to worry about it. It's left. It's got, you know, the Hispanic caucus doesn't like what it hears. Progressives don't like what they hear. I mean, I had Pramila Jayapal telling me between, you know, this potential deal and what's happening in Gaza. I mean, that's fraying the coalition, the very coalition that Biden needs to get reelected.

So I think the timing on this is really, really extraordinarily sensitive. I just I have a hard time seeing them doing a deal in the short term, maybe into January. But in the short term, I just have a hard time seeing it come together. Yeah, I mean, it makes sense. And by January, being able to put something together, write something down, because more at the end of the day, I even even well, I know the Republican senators don't want to go out campaigning, being the people that stood in the way of aid to Israel and aid to Ukraine and also a pretty good deal on the southern border. I think we need to look to what what happened with the defense appropriation bill. It passed when normal people rolled over the crazy people on the far right in both parties.

Republicans, Democrats have passed last night. I suspect there won't be a deal that the hard hard right backbenchers will ever support on immigration. But taken all together, it does seem that if they get rolled again, it's a possibility, right? It seems possible. I think the analogy that I that keeps coming to mind, though, is the way we used to talk about abortion. So before Roe v. Wade got overturned with Dobbs, you know, the abortion issue was an extremely powerful one for the Republican base because they could use Roe v. Wade as kind of the boogeyman. And the moment that the Dobbs decision fell, came out, that actually just completely reversed

the political dynamic. And now, of course, this has been an issue that's very powerful for Democrats. I think similarly, it's very easy when Republicans are not in the White House to blame the Democratic president, in this case, Joe Biden, of course, for any issue at the border. And I think striking a deal on immigration is probably, to their mind, not in the best interest at the moment for Republicans. Now, that doesn't mean it's, I mean, it's certainly in the best interest

of the country to secure the border, to get a rational immigration system. We've needed this for two decades. But I don't know that Republicans are thinking about it in those terms. I think they have an election coming up and this is a good boogeyman for them. So they can continue to blame the president and Democrats as long as they don't strike a deal. If they do strike a deal, they've got to put their name to whatever happens after that. And that just doesn't fly with the Republican base. Yeah, they don't want to do that. It's just like health care reform. They want to attack Obamacare. It's been 14 years, 13 years. They've never done anything on it. They've never done anything on immigration

reform. They were talking about doing something in 2013. Two people complained and they all backed off their gang of seven or whatever gang they called it. They all backed off because they're cowards. But in this case, you have for Democrats, at least Joe Biden has a cover of Democratic mayors, Democratic governors. You have John Fetterman, a progressive from Pennsylvania, Democratic leaders across the country saying we need the border secured. Let's figure out a smart, humane, safe way to do it. And let's secure the border. So that at least gives Joe Biden the position. And the question is, can they put a deal out that's simple enough to understand that if Republicans say no to it, it can be used against them throughout 2024? Completely. I mean, the irony here is that the Democrats, as you said, are probably the most willing to play ball that they have ever been.

And of course, you know, it's also just frustrating because the reality is that the American economy actually needs more workers. And so it is in the interest of business across America, of small towns across America to find a way to get this deal done, to welcome safely, appropriately more workers into this country. It will help the economy. You know, Republicans know that, but they don't want to give up this boogeyman. And I think that's an extremely frustrating point. And of course, what we have, too, is that right now the way they see it is that the Democratic cities are paying the price at the moment for the failure to enact immigration reform. So it's working for them. It's working for them politically, and they don't want to give up that bone.

Joe mentioned the defense budget that passed yesterday. Interesting for what's in it and for what is not in it. The House passed the National Defense Authorization Act by an overwhelming majority yesterday. The defense spending bill had strong bipartisan support in both chambers, with House Democrats joining Republicans after the bill was stripped of far-right Republican demands that originally had targeted issues like abortion access and diversity programs. They're not in the bill. The NDAA authorized $886 billion in spending, an increase of about 3% from last year.

It includes a 5.2% pay raise for troops. That's the largest increase in years. And it extends a measure to help Ukraine through the end of 2026, authorizing $300 million for the next two fiscal years, though, of course, that's a fraction of the $61 billion an assistant President Biden has asked Congress to approve. Also in the NDAA, a provision barring future presidents from unilaterally withdrawing from NATO without approval from the Senate or an act of Congress. The legislation was spearheaded by Virginia Senator Tim Kaine and Republican Senator Marco Rubio of Florida. Concerns have grown in recent years surrounding whether the United States

might withdraw from NATO during another Trump presidency. With this legislation, no president will be able to solely decide to leave that alliance. So, Joe, fascinating budget here because of what's not in it. All the noise about abortion access, the Tommy Tuberville of it all. And then this provision, a bipartisan provision co-sponsored by Marco Rubio, effectively to stop Donald Trump potentially from pulling out of NATO. Right. And Donny George, I mean, once again, we have an example of Republicans running around, far right Republicans running around, spouting crazy talking points, damaging America's

military readiness. Everybody knows Tommy Tuberville damaged America's military readiness for over a year. If you don't believe us, ask Republican senators. It's you know, it's just like us refusing to fund Ukraine. We're playing right into Vladimir Putin's hands and Republicans have said as much of their fellow Republicans. But here, once again, you have bipartisan legislation passing, Biden signing another bipartisan piece of legislation while crazy people on the far right and some on the far left say, oh, we can't do business with the other side in Washington, D.C. Things are just too hot to get too crazy. Here we are. We're still we're still doing it.

And Joe Biden signing yet another bipartisan piece of legislation. You know, I'm going to coin a new term. Joe, you yesterday were talking about all the wonderful people who are enjoying all the fruits that's happening in this country, a record stock market, record low employment, record jobs, record bipartisan legislation. And there's a group called Biden deniers, just like their election deniers, there are Biden deniers. They will they only can deny the accomplishments of Biden. And that's the by the way, if people are just tuning in and they don't know, I, Biden deniers is much nicer than the word I was trying to avoid saying,

but, but these Biden deniers are people and we all know them. Willie knows them. Donna, you know them. I know them. I'm sure Mara knows them as well. John knows there are people that drive around in Ferraris, Maseratis and convertible Mercedes, you know, revved up BMWs and, you know, make sure that everybody hears them screeching down the street, you know, and they get out of their cars and, you know, they're looking, you know, you see them all the time. Yeah. Half of them are my friends. Yeah. Yeah. Half of them are your friends. You go to lunch with them. And while you're in the middle of talking baseball, they take out their phone and they're staring at it. They go, I just made twenty thousand dollars while you were eating salad, you know, on their stocks. And they made so much money. And. They do it, don't they?

They do that. And then they bitch and whine. They're making millions and millions of dollars off of Joe Biden's economy because they would say it was Donald Trump's economy, so what's fair for the goose is fair for the gander. So they've made millions and millions of dollars, some of them billions of dollars, in Joe Biden's economy.

And then they put the phone down and they start talking about Joe Biden's wrecking this economy. He's destroying America. He's a socialist. If you heard him talk, he's a socialist. He's not even running the country. They're Biden deniers. The economy is doing incredibly well. Record job numbers throughout the first couple of years. We can go on and on and on. The stock market higher than it's ever been. And these Maserati driving D Biden deniers, they just keep on, don't they, Donnie?

Joe, yeah. And I was laughing yesterday as you were going through this, because as I said just now, half of these people are my friends. I'd like to give a direct message out there for all of you whose IRAs and stock portfolios are an all time high. I want to understand the issue with Joe Biden because all he's done is be successful and that you can't get a straight answer out of them. When you say to somebody, well, what's the problem? You know, he's too old. He's done a great job. And look at your pocket, but look at your wallet. And the other thing that's so fascinating, I'm going to use the word stickiness. Nothing sticks to Biden that's good and nothing sticks to Trump that's bad. We live in a non-sticky world. This stuff has got to start to stick to Biden. And for all my friends out there who are about to tee off on the first hole

of their country clubs, just look at your net worth. And Joe Biden is doing a very good job. Well, yeah, I mean, you know, that was their excuse. Yeah, I know Donald Trump's a fascist, but I made a lot of money under Donald Trump. They're making more under Joe Biden.

He likes American democracy. So anyway, so, John, we won't pull you into this conversation, but we will. I do want to talk about as we talk about the future of what's happening in Israel and with Ukraine aid and what's happening on the border. I would love for you, if you could, we tried to talk about it some, but I don't think our viewers and most Americans have enough of an understanding of how there are three parties in Washington, D.C. right now. There's the Democratic Party, there's the House Republican Party, and there's the Senate Republican Party. Can you explain how the Senate Republicans are

so different from the House Republicans and how they may in the end be able to strike a deal with reasonable House members to actually get this big deal through? Yeah, you're exactly right. There is the what you would think of the old pre- Donald Trump Republican Party. The last remnant of it is the Senate Republican Conference. There's, you know, probably two thirds of it that you would see is an old conservative, you know, but but reasonable, conservative, you know, have a have a very strong, muscular foreign policy, if you would. So and then there's the America first element of the Republican Party, which dominates in the House. And there's a growing number of them in the in the Senate Republican Party. That's true. They are House members who've gotten elected to the Senate or they won election in the Trump era, and they are Donald Trump Republicans.

And that's the big tension in the Republican Party. It's Mitch McConnell leads that old, the old bastion of GOP in the Senate Republican Conference. But it's probably the last real pre Donald Trump room, a remainder of the party. If you look at it, um, I do, I don't, I, I think you have to be careful though, to say that, you know, there is a deal there. There is a potential for a deal there, but Senate Republican Trump is a big factor here. And I do think we have to look at the calendar. We have, you know, Iowa caucuses coming up in mid JanuaryJanuary. We have New Hampshire a week later, the 15th in Iowa, January 23rd in New Hampshire. This would be, if there's no deal before the holidays and Congress has to come back

and deal with this in January, you're going to have them talking about this just as voters start, you know, voting for Trump. And Trump is going to be the Republican nominee, barring some dramatic change. And Trump will play a role in this debate. And if Trump doesn't like what he hears or if it suits him not to have a deal, as Mara said, if it suits Trump not to have a deal and have this issue hammering Biden throughout the campaign, then it will be hard to strike a deal with the House Republican conference. And Mike Johnson, Mike Johnson is very conservative. He's not going to get out in front of himself on this. And it'll be hard for Senate Republicans to get out in front of House Republicans on this. So I think there's it's very complex inside the Republican Party here.

And the calendar is a huge issue. If this had happened six months ago, say, I think we'd have a different case if McCarthy was the speaker and, you know, we weren't so pressing in the presidential election. But it's happening, you know, it's happening right now in the middle of what's at the beginning of the presidential campaign. And again, one other factor, they're going to impeach Biden. No matter what they say, they're going to impeach Biden. I really think the House Republicans are going to try and vote on impeachment of Biden sometime in January or February, likely. And so, again, this is also a factor. So I think there's a lot of stuff going into this extraordinarily complex. John, on that question of impeachment, we had the vote two days ago just to open the inquiry,

and it was unanimous among Republicans straight along party lines, even as we were discussing yesterday among some swing district Republicans who were critical, who have said in the past, there's nothing really there. We haven't seen any evidence. They voted to open the inquiry. Was that to you a clear sign of Trump's influence? And were you surprised at all that at least that small handful of Republicans didn't go the other way? Yeah, I mean, I was looking at guys like Don Bacon in Nebraska, who's, you know, a real rational member, you know, who had talked about he wasn't sold on an inquiry and then turned around and voted for it. I think, honestly, I hate to say it this way, but I think politically there's no downside for them. These swing district Republicans voting for an inquiry. They believe that they're not. Biden is, for better or worse, he's not very strong in the polls, chiefly because of economic issues.

Like opening an inquiry doesn't hurt them. It buys them some time with conservative groups on their right who'd hammer them if they voted against it. So I think they're looking at their own base and saying, you know, I've got my primary coming up. You know, I got to go, you know, I got to file and run. So, you know, voting for an inquiry is one thing. Now, you know, we'll have to see how well the White House does in rebutting this stuff. Up until now, the White House has pushed hard, but I think it's dramatically upping its case there. And they need to do this. They need to push back against this and say there's no real evidence that Joe Biden did anything wrong. I think the White House has done, you know, you can say what you want about Hunter Biden.

I mean, that scene the other day was extraordinary. I haven't seen anything like it in my time. But, you know, they need to push back on this harder. So I do think it's interesting that these these swing district Republicans found that there's no real downside for them voting for an inquiry. Well, you know, two things. I'm so glad you brought up Hunter's press conference the other day. This is not a guy. I don't think this is a guy that they want to take on publicly, which is why, you know, even after he made the recommendation that they would do it privately or publicly, Comer made that recommendation. You know, he melted like a little snowflake when when Hunter actually took him up on it and said, OK, I'll come testify

publicly. And I don't know, maybe some people in Tennessee would say just wasn't man enough to take him on one on one in person. I don't know. Maybe that's the way they talk in Tennessee. We're far more enlightened than that, I guess, in other states. But some people would say he wasn't man enough to even take on Hunter Biden in person. David Ignatius, though, I just I just because you and I are the only people old enough to remember 1984. Donnie, I think, was a high school senior then. You and I are the only people old enough to remember 1984. I want to take you back to 1983. And I'm not saying that Joe Biden is Ronald Reagan. I will say that Newt Gingrich said after the 2022 elections, at some point, we Republicans are going to stop being stupid and stop underestimating Joe Biden the same way Democrats underestimated Ike and Reagan over and over again. But Ronald Reagan

in 1983 in the Gallup poll dropped as low as 35 percent in the approval rating. You remember how grim 82 and 83 were for Ronald Reagan, as do I, after his huge landslide victory in 1980. In 1983, the year before the election, he averaged 41 percent approval ratings. That's about where Joe Biden is. He's averaged throughout his year before the election, 41 percent approval rating. You add on top of that the news from this past week from the Fed chair. They're going to stop raising interest rates. They expect three interest rate cuts next year. The Dow just hit an all-time high. I don't know. If I'm in Joe Biden's camp, despite all the negative headlines, just like the negative headlines Reagan got in 83. I'm looking ahead to some bright, sunny days and in 2024 economically.

I mean, this talk about mourning in America. You can stack up Joe Biden's numbers right now economically where what what Reagan called mourning in America and Biden's already doing better. And with three cuts in interest rates next year, what does 2024 look like? So, Joe, maybe Biden can can be the gipper, you know, is is AIDS. Mike, Mike Dowell and other people in the way I should be should be asking to repeat the phrase. It's morning in America, folks. It's it's you know, look at the numbers. Look, look at look at the actual state of the economy. The thing that strikes me, in addition to the the real achievements that Biden has got in the economy and I think in foreign policy is the way that the Republicans keep walking

farther and farther out on a narrower and narrower ledge. And at some point, I just have to believe they're going to fall off. The country simply isn't with them on many of these issues that they're being so strident about. And you know that sensible Republicans in the Senate understand that. That's part of why they're wary. What has infected the Republican caucus in the House, I don't begin to know. Maybe trying to force a real border deal, not force it, but offer it on the part of the Democrats, the issue the Republicans seem to care most about is a good strategy in trying to break this logjam. But again, yeah, this is a narrow ledge the Republicans are on and they may well fall off. Yeah. By the way, Donnie Comer, I didn't

want to claim him for Kentucky because both my parents went to Kentucky and are huge Wildcat fans. But I come where I have to admit, I think he's from Kentucky. But let's talk really quickly about that again in twenty twenty four. I know you were too young to remember nineteen eighty four. Maybe you didn't remember for other reasons, but I wouldn't go out saying it's morning in America if I'm if I'm team Biden. But I would as the year goes on. And if the numbers keep getting better, as interest rates drop, gas prices continue to drop, grocery bills drop, cost of living drops, job openings remain high. I'd start reminding you, you know what this is you remember when reagan said morning in america you remember when he said that yeah inflation was like i think it was like it you know jobless rate 7.4 percent or something things are even better now than they

were then we still have a long way to go but, what great progress we've made since the last guy left the White House. I actually would cut a exact duplet commercial morning in America, which you want people talking. Anytime you put Ronald Reagan in the same sentence as Joe Biden, you're going to win. So I think there's two lanes here. There's the number one. It's morning in America. It's never been better here. And contrast Donald Trump nighttime in America and start to use the F word, the fascist word. Don't just say democracy is hanging on a thread. Say you will be a we will be a fascist state. Start putting cutting commercials together with Mussolini in it, with Hitler in it. I know everybody's go, oh, you can't do that. You can't do that. We will become a fascist state. Use the F word for Donald Trump. Morning in America for Joe Biden. You can't have any more of a stock contrast morning and night.

I think that's right. I also think that the president needs to start talking about the ways in which his policies, his actions, starting with the infrastructure bill, I would say, have actually improved lives for Americans who may not have IRAs. They may not be playing on Wall Street. They're not feeling the same things that we are talking about in this hour, but they will be. And those gains will come. Their lives may be more expensive at the moment. And people are feeling that. That's very real. And I think the president, that's a challenge. He's going to need to speak to that. But also, there has been an enormous amount of good that this president has done for Main Street. And he needs to start talking about that. And it needs to be louder than every other conversation the Republicans are having. All right, Mara, stay with us. Co-founder of Punchbowl News, John Bresnahan. John,

thanks so much. Coming up next, we'll talk to a columnist for one of Israel's largest newspapers about the escalating tensions between the White House and Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. Morning Joe's back in a moment. National Security Advisor Jake Sullivan is headed to the West Bank today to meet with the leaders of the Palestinian Authority. It comes just one day after his meeting with Israeli leaders, during which he urged the country to shift to a more low-intensity operation in Gaza. The White House also has been pushing for a two-state solution. That's something, though, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's government appears to be against. Yesterday, Israeli President Isaac Herzog told the Associated Press now is not the time to discuss post-war plans as Israel is still healing from the attack of October 7th. Joining us now, Israeli columnist for Ynet News, Nadov Eyal. His latest article is titled

Netanyahu Heading for Collision with Biden Over Post-War Gaza and More. Good morning. It's great to have you with us. So before we get to post-war Gaza and that collision course you write about, let's talk about the here and now, which is the United States openly calling for Israel to change its tactics, to change its strategy in the war, to stop the bombing and to go to commandos who can take out Hamas leaders, rescue hostages. What has been the Israeli reaction to that proposal from the United States? Thank you for having me. And basically, this is about time. Israel knew and the IDF knows that they're going to shift tactics soon. They would want to do that in the end of January. The Biden

administration wants this happening right after Christmas or Christmas vacation. And it was meant to happen anyway. And there's not a lot of daylight here between Jack Sullivan now visiting Israel and the Palestinian territories and between the Israelis in that sense. And we should take notice of what he said. He said that there is no deadline set in time with a specific date, but he was talking about several weeks. And in any case, the IDF wanted to shift to a sort of a very targeted rate and sometimes attacks from the air against the leadership of Hamas and not remain in the same situation in which it's actually maneuvering within the Gaza Strip. It already took control of the center in the north of the Gaza Strip right now, and it's trying to get a hold of Han Younes.

That's the base, that's the place that the leader of Hamas, the man who ordered the October 7 attack against Israel, this is where he comes from. This is the most important regiment or division of Hamas. And when the IDF is over with Hanunis, with this place, and the IDF would want to move to a specific tactic, a different tactic. And this is what the U.S. wants also to see in Gaza. Nadav, this is David Ignatius in Washington. I want to ask you to give us a political picture of the state of things in Israel. We've been talking this morning about Prime Minister Netanyahu and a lot of questions that we hear in the United States, I know, are repeated in Israel about his preparations for the war and some anger in Israel. Is that growing? Do you see Netanyahu's position weakening?

Or in fighting against U.S. pressure on him, does he get stronger in Israel? You know, David, you know very well the Israeli politics and you know how hectic it is, how intensive it is. But right now, politically speaking, Netanyahu is not a viable candidate for the next election. He's just, when you see the polls, his numbers are just, you know, as dead as you can see. He has no hope, at least at the polls that we've seen since October 7th, and he's not doing any better, according to the polls that we're doing and we're seeing right now, politically speaking. Now, the question I think your viewers might have in mind is, why is this man still in power? And the answer is that this is a coalition government in Israel. It's not the same as the U.S., but even in the U.S. after 9-11, President Bush remained in power.

And this is what we're seeing in Israel. Israel is so focused right now, both the public and people need to understand, to acknowledge that we have a reserve army in this country. So many people that I know, many of my friends, many of my friends' daughters and sons are right now serving. So a political crisis right now and a sort of an election right now seems impossible. But when you ask Israelis on the polls, the main kind of argument is, does Netanyahu need to resign right now or should he do this after this stage of the war? And it's going to be, David, a long war. This is going to—and you probably remember how much time it took to hit al-Qaeda and to get Osama bin Laden, how much time it took to hit ISIS and to get that

over with. Hamas is very strong. It's very much supported by the Palestinian public. The points that we're seeing from Palestinians, it's about 70 percent support for October 7. So the public in Gaza and the West Bank support Hamas. So it's very difficult to get to that place in which you can root out Hamas. And this is one of the reasons that the political crisis in Israel is not advancing to replacing Netanyahu. And I guess the question that many Americans have that we've under a man who whose government had the attack plans for a year, Hamas's plans for a year, who was still asking Qatar to funnel the billions of dollars that they funneled to Hamas through the years and still asking them to keep that money flowing even three weeks before the attacks, Netanyahu's people. And then the most confounding thing to us, and we really, really appreciate you giving providing any any information on this. How could it be that a man who we've heard justify his political existence through security, safety and security for Israelis, how did his government fail to respond

in any meaningful way for six, seven, eight, nine, ten hours after these attacks began, Jewish women were being raped to death. Children were being shot in front of their parents and parents shot in front of their children. Israelis, kids having to hide for 13, 14 hours before being rescued. I mean, this is this government seems to be a government that has failed one test after another, after another. So why would an Israeli parent want their children to fight under the leadership of such a man? Well, first of all, most of Israelis right now don't want Netanyahu to remain as prime minister. But I want to push back a bit, Joe, with your assumption, your factual assumption.

The Israeli government is not responsible for the response of the IDF that morning. And that response was with extreme bravery and valor. And it was immediate. The fact that they didn't get to those villages and kibbutzim in time, and I'm speaking as someone who has been there, I have been there down in the south, you know, while fighting was still happening, 48 hours after Hamas fighters just drove through the borders. The fact is that the Israeli commandos and the Israeli defense forces didn't get there because they were outnumbered. And this is, of course, you know, one hell of a failure of the Israeli defense forces,

the security forces and this government. And the person responsible for that is the prime minister. But to say that the government did absolutely nothing for six and seven hours. First of all, the immediate response, exactly like the U.S. would have a terror attack on it, is by the defense forces, by the security forces, by the IDF and the police officers. And at the beginning, it might have seemed to people and people that I spoke with, sometimes people that I knew, that the IDF is still not coming.

The reason it wasn't coming is because it was simply overrun. And we have just tremendous stories of bravery from that day. But it's one thing is for sure that immediately at 6.30 a.m., when this attack ensued, the chiefs of staff were already in Tel Aviv, already, you know, in the underneath bunker. And they were handling this to the best of their ability. Now, again, this is a failure, and this failure will be investigated. But it's not like Netanyahu didn't do anything. The defense minister didn't do anything. And they just allowed this to happen. And as to the plans, I'm going to have a pushback against the U.S. policy. It's the U.S. that pressured Israel again and again to have this kind of quiet for quiet or negotiations of sorts with Hamas. And, of course, Qatar is a great ally of the United States in the Middle East.

And the fact is that if Israel would have come to the Western world, to Western Europe, or maybe even to the U.S., and would have said, look, Hamas is going to attack us. It's a genocidal organization. It's aimed at destroying Israel and killing every living person in Israel, by the way, including Arab Israelis, which they killed in their dozens that day. The world would have said, Joe, most probably, you're just, you know, you're free-rung mongering, you want a war here, and you want a war in the Middle East. Are you crazy to go into the Gaza Strip to try to occupy? Actually, when Israel started its defensive in this, the Pentagon sent three generals

to Israel, basically saying to the Israeli defense forces, if you advance on a ground operation into the Gaza Strip, it's going to be a disaster for Israel. And they were warning the defense minister, Yoav Galant, and the Israeli defense forces generals not to do the ground operation as it was planned. Well, we're almost two months, a month and a half later, and this ground operation, at least for now, in the Gaza Strip, has taken control of both the north and the center of the Gaza Strip, has killed many terrorists, has managed to release some of the hostages, retrieve bodies of the hostages, pressure Hamas to bring some of the bodies. Now, again, I go to your bottom line.

The bottom line is that Israelis are fighting for their lives right now. This is how it's seen in the country. And most of them want Netanyahu gone. This is not my impression. It's not an anecdote. We have poll after poll saying that. And the only question is, when will the political sphere transcend what the Israeli public wants? Well, let me just say we have pushing back on you, pushing back on the first point. I do not discount the fact that there were not individual acts of bravery, extraordinary acts. A 67 year old general who was riding his bike. You know this story very well. Got a call, ran home, got a gun, jumped in his car, drove down and and rounded up some people to to go in and and rescue rescue some Israelis. But what a sad, pathetic fact. If the United States were attacked and we

had to have 67-year-old generals riding down and trying to round up some troops to try to save Americans, that would be seen as a gross failure for Israel to be overrun by drugged up, souped up terrorists and to be to have them maintain control as long as they did is a total abject failure. So I want to make sure you understand, I am not discounting for one second that there were individual instances of bravery, but it was a colossal failure. And we in America still don't understand what in the world happened and why Israel, because we've always had these, I guess, exaggerated views of the IDF and Mossad and what they were capable of doing. And we just refuse. I refuse to believe that crazed terrorists on paragliders and mopeds are a stronger force than the IDF.

And secondly, you have to admit, you talk about, oh, oh, I've got to say also, there's a big difference between the United States not wanting Israel to go in and invade Gaza than there is on the other side, Netanyahu's government telling Qatar to continue funneling billions of dollars to Hamas. There is a huge middle ground there. And again, a lot of it just doesn't seem to make any sense to us in the United States. So I'm sure you understand that most Americans would be far more comfortable continuing our support of Israel, which we are going to do with with a prime minister that's far more effective in keeping Israelis safe and secure. I completely can understand that.

And I want to say that the heartfelt sentiment coming from the United States, and I just saw Senator Bernie Sanders the other day talking about, you know, very frankly, about how you cannot have a ceasefire with Hamas while they are saying that they want to have a million October 7th. So you can feel the sentiment from the United States, from across the United States. And I can also understand the surprise at this gross failure. And I can only join what you said, Joe, about the way that Israelis were disappointed by their armed forces. And my explanation to that is quite simple. If you would have had a quasi-state on the borders of the United States,

supported by your arch enemy, supported by Iran, and it would have been embroiled in a deception plan for many years, trying to tell you and the world and the U.S. and Qatar and all the rest that all they want is to have better life the world and the U.S. and Qatar and all the rest that all they want is to have better life in the Gala Street. You'll have daily workers coming from that quasi-state. And just one morning, they'll do something that seems, you know, just so far-fetched. They'll attack a much stronger state. I was in this house with my kids when they launched their rocket missile attack against the entire state of Israel, which was just a decoy for their attack.

And they would do this in a matter of seconds, and they would just overrun numerically the IDF on that border. And it's something that people don't understand. These were not only individual acts of bravery. There were those, of course, this General, General Thiebaud, that you just mentioned, it's a very famous story. But I know, you know, about companies, regiments that were there in a matter of hours. The most problematic thing is that when you fight there within these outposts, and you're fighting 200 highly trained terrorists, by the way, trained by Iran, then it's a problem getting to those kibbutzim. But to your final point, the bottom line is that, of course, people in the U.S. question Netanyahu and people in Israel question Netanyahu. And I

question Netanyahu in my articles. I'm very critical. But people back home, the U.S. should know that there is a priority here for Israelis. And the first priority for Israelis is basically for us to be safe. And this is something that we lost our security on October 7th. Yeah. And if that doesn't lay at the feet of Benjamin Netanyahu, I don't know

whose responsibility, whose it would be. And I think most Israelis would agree with that. So thank you so much for being with us. The Dove, I greatly appreciate it. So I didn't want more. I didn't want to just turn this into a back and forth debate for the next three hours. There is so much to respond to. But one of the things you've got to respond to, and I've got to believe, and I want to bring David in in this conversation as well, but he talks about the effectiveness of the invasion of Gaza in northern and central Gaza,

talking about all the gains there as if there haven't been catastrophic consequences as well. By the way, we can be we can be the great. I'll just speak for myself. I am a a supporter of Israel. I always have been. I always will be. It's much, much harder. I don't support this government. I don't support Netanyahu's government because he made Israel less safe. And I've got to say, Maura, massive civilian deaths, racking up massive civilian deaths in the coming weeks will make Israel even less safe in the future. And, you know, talking about having him, a columnist, talk about the great gains Israel has made in Gaza without understanding the massive consequences there for the Palestinian people, but also for Israel's long term security seems to me a bit blind. the United States and the debates, the protests, the dissension in this country over this issue, over whether there should be an immediate ceasefire. And it's been very painful here in the United States. And I don't want to make any comparison to say that it is anything like what

Israelis went through on October 7th, because it isn't. But it's been very painful here. But I think for all of that, the vast, overwhelming majority of Americans, they saw what happened on October 7th. They were devastated. We have also been attacked by terrorists in this country. They understand that Hamas needs to be destroyed. Most Americans don't support Hamas. There's no debate over this, not any real sense among, you know, reasonable society in the United States. That's not the issue. The concern is that Americans do not have an appetite, I believe, for a prolonged, another prolonged war in the Middle East in which we may see, you know, just extraordinary, continue to see extraordinary deaths of civilians.

And I think that is also painful. And we need to acknowledge that it doesn't necessarily. I think there are a lot of Americans also who see these civilian deaths of Palestinians, and they have a hard time understanding how in the long term that will make Israelis safer or Jews safer around the world. Those are not people who support Hamas. I just want to say that. Yeah. You know, these are people who care about Jews and care about Israel. And I also just think that there's an opportunity here,

and I think Joe Biden knows and sees this, to say, you know, Israel is a democracy in the Middle East. We are a democracy. This is a time in which democracies are under threat from around the world. And we need to show, I believe, in the United States and in Israel, that democracy can be a force for good for human rights. And one way to show that is by paying respect to Palestinian civilians who are suffering. That is a way to show we do care and we're going to do a much more targeted operation because we are a democracy and we care about human rights.

This is a good moment, I think, to make a show of support for democracy from both the wartime cabinet in Israel and from the United States. So there's a lot at stake here. There is a lot at stake here. And David, the lead editorial in The Wall Street Journal talks about Joe Biden's rising tension with Israel and and basically complaining that Joe Biden is telling the Israelis how to fight their own wars, making it more dangerous, costing more Israeli lives. You've been there. You were there. Talk about, though, how in the long term, more Israeli lives are endangered by just a continued bombardment of civilians, if that were to continue, and the radicalizing effect that will have on the West Bank and the impossibility. And by the way, when I say two state solution, I'm not talking about

this week or next week, talking about what you wrote about at the beginning of the war, David. What's the what's the day after this war look like? Will there be a two state solution? No. But they need to fight the war in a way that we can get there eventually. And right now, if they continue fighting as they have, do we ever get there eventually. And right now, if they continue fighting as they have, do we ever get there? So, Joe, in my mind, there are two wars going on. There's Israel's attempt to destroy Hamas in Gaza on a tactical basis. And that goes from day to day. Israeli accounts are pretty positive. They're controlling northern Gaza. They're increasingly in control of southern Gaza. But there's another war going on, and that's

the information war. And I think anybody who cares about Israel should recognize and should be honest with Israeli leaders that that war is going badly, that Israel is increasingly seen in international forums, in the media around the world. If you turn on the BBC, if you want an example of what the world is saying about this campaign, Israel has to pay more attention to that. I think that's really what Jake Sullivan has been saying, what President Biden has been saying, that international opinion matters. Yes, go after Hamas in the first war on the ground, but do it carefully because you have another war to worry about. And then, Joe, there's the other

question that we've been talking about of what comes after, the day after. And can the U.S., Saudi Arabia, the UAE and Israel be aligned on a transition to something in Gaza and the West Bank that will be stable, that will make Israel more secure, that will make Palestinians who suffered so much in this war more secure? And that's something that the White House is working, you know, 24-7 on. And they need an assurance from Netanyahu or from people in Israel, if they're prepared to break with Netanyahu, that they're going to support that big idea that the U.S. has. And so I think I put, divided those three parts. There's the tactical war on the ground. How's that going? There's the information war. That's clearly going badly. And then there's the day after that you and I have talked about

often.