Morning Joe - Morning Joe 12/18/23

Episode Date: December 18, 2023

Trump echoes authoritarians with anti-immigrant remark

Yesterday, President Biden released a new video with Barack Obama in which they remind people that Obamacare is still available. But according to polls, people really want to know if Obama is still available. Good morning and welcome to Morning Joe. It is Monday, December 18th. Donald Trump is using more fascist rhetoric on the campaign trail. We'll show you the latest disturbing comments from the former president. Also ahead, we're going to go to the massive civil ruling against Rudy Giuliani, a sum that will bankrupt the former mayor of New York City.

He said it's basically a death penalty for him, an economic death penalty. Plus an update from Capitol Hill on foreign aid negotiations. The package, which would provide critical funding for Ukraine, is being held up by Republican demands for stricter immigration policies. Is there hope? It looks like there's some progress there. Might be some. We'll get analysis on the Biden administration's push to get Israel to scale back its war in Gaza. What's going on there? With us, we have the host of Way Too Early, White House Bear Chief at Politico, Jonathan Lemire, former aide to the George W. Bush White House and State Department's Elise Jordan,

the president of the National Action Network and host of MSNBC's Politics Nation. Reverend Al Sharpton joins us and Rogers Jair in the American presidency at Vanderbilt University. Historian John Meacham is with us this morning. So let's get right to it. At a rally in New Hampshire on Saturday, Donald Trump once again used the language of 20th century authoritarians while separately praising this country's strongmen. He also repeatedly referred to the people convicted of attacking the Capitol on January 6th as hostages. And again, said immigrants are, quote, poisoning the blood of our country. Take a listen. We're like a rocket ship. It was like a rocket ship sent by Kim Jong-un, just like that, who was very nice.

I will tell you, he's not so fond of this administration, but he's fond of me. And we had a very good relationship. Vladimir Putin of Russia says that Biden's and this is a quote, politically motivated persecution of his political rival is very good for Russia because it shows the rottenness of the American political system. Viktor Orban, the highly respected prime minister of Hungary, said Trump is the man who can save the Western world. Can you imagine Presidency of China, powerful kind of a guy. They hate when I say that.

Oh, you're saying nice things now. He controls 1.4 billion people rather ruthlessly, right? I will direct a completely overhauled DOJ to investigate every radical, out of control, fake, crooked prosecutor in America for their illegal, racist, in reverse enforcement of the law. If you remember in Minnesota, Minneapolis, where they took over the police station, they took it over and they burned it down. By the way, what happened to those people? Are those people in jail with the J6 hostages? What happened to those people, come to think of it?

They're not in jail with the J6 hostages. I don't call them prisoners. I call them hostages. They're hostages. We got a lot of work to do. You know, when they let, I think the real number is 15, 16 million people into our country. When they do that, we get a lot of work to do. They're poisoning the blood of our country. The crime is going to be tremendous. The terrorism is going to be, terrorism is going to be. And we built a tremendous piece of the wall and then we're going to build more.

And. All right. Once again, I misspoke. It's the centuries strong man that he was talking about. But again, why why do we show this? We always get that question. Why do you give him attention? Actually, this cannot be normalized. And he is the Republican front runner. He is so far the Republican's choice. Yeah. Well, not only it's getting more explicit, it's getting worse. I am still shocked by the clowns who claim to be media critics out there.

It's absolute clowns that that attack the media for reporting this. And so I was like, you just don't get it. You don't understand his connection with the audience. You just have to understand that you're actually helping him by focusing on, you know, saying he's fascist. John Meacham, this is this is very this is very straightforward. I just I writing it down. He calls the worst tyrant on the planet the most cruel tyrant. Kim Jong-un, he says he's very nice that Biden doesn't have a good relationship with him. But he does. Most presidents would take take great, great honor in in not having a good relationship with that thug. And then Vladimir Putin, and this is the one that really sticks with me,

is Donald Trump's always talking about how horrible America is, how terrible America is when he's not in office. He did it before, he's doing it after. And he quotes Vladimir Putin approvingly to talk about how rotten American democracy is. He quotes President Xi, says that he's rather ruthless and praises him and points to the media and says they don't like it when I praise him and then goes on and praises him for being a guy that that's that's got concentration camps with millions of people in it says rather ruthless talks about the january 6th hostages we're talking about people who beat the hell out of cops uh and then of course goes back to uh echoes of adolf hitler uh talking about poisoning of the blood of this country.

It's getting more explicit. And the fact that fools that are covering the horse race would somehow attack. Writers, journalists for for recording this and putting it to the readers without an explanation. Oh, but he also is talking about economics that they related to seems to somehow talk about miss the much bigger point that we're in the fight for for American democracy. And he's becoming more and more explicit on how he wants to take American democracy down. We will never be able to say we were not warned. Right. Right. So we can move that off the table. There was not there's no surprise attack here. This is explicit. It's clear. Just listen. And you're right. People who I don't know don't know, I never can remember the phrase, or I don't know if we're wetting beds or being hysterical or what it is, but words matter.

Rhetoric, the root of the word rhetoric is action. And if you don't think this is serious, I don't think you're even remotely paying attention. And I think one of the problems with the current era is that too many of us, and I've been one too, so this is a sinner, not a saint talking, to say the least, is many of us have applied conventional rules of gravity, conventional rules of analysis, conventional rules of politics to what is an unconventional force. That is, it doesn't matter anymore whether Joe Biden had a good week or a bad week. It doesn't matter if the White House staff is arguing about X or Y. That's an analog way of envisioning and understanding our politics

in what is an unfolding disaster. And I don't think it's it's it's in fact, it's not simple. But to use your word, it is straightforward. And my final view of this is we're on trial here. The American people are on trial here. And to the 15, 20 percent of Republicans who do know better, I'm guessing, but who for various reasons cannot bring themselves to ending this, to voting against this fascistic force. I would just say you're a lot richer today than you were seven days ago. And, you know, I'm right. You all have. You know, we've made some money here. This is not a disastrous era. You know, there's not, you know, economic carnage in the streets for these elites. And yet these elites are making this possible.

And I think that insofar as those folks can be reached, please, please, please listen to what your putative nominee is saying. This is this is a moment where at least we have Donald Trump quoting Vladimir Putin. We have him praising Xi, Kim Jong Un, Orban. We have him referring to January 6th convicts as hostages. And we have him using language that evokes what Adolf Hitler used to say. Those in the White House have said to me, they've made a compelling case in recent months, the Biden White House, that they feel like Americans are not paying attention right now. That it's too early. We're still almost a year from the election. That next spring, after the Republican primaries, which are not competitive, are over. And Americans start

actually listening to Donald Trump. As we move into the summer, we move into next fall, it's a general election between Biden and Trump. And when Americans start paying attention again, they will hear this from Trump and reject it. They will say, we can't go down that path again. We can't go down that path again. My question, though, is, as Trump seems, his poll numbers are only going up, both in the Republican primary and now in general election survey after election survey. He's ahead of Biden in most measures. And the journal, Wall Street Journal, just now, moments ago, says Americans feel better about his policies when they do Biden's. My question is, are we sure Americans are going to care? I don't think so. I think that you're

going to have a week before the election, maybe 50 million low information voters voting on how they feel the economy is doing right then that week in October 2024. I think that you see the extremism of American politics right now. You see the radicalization of so many of Donald Trump's supporters who are fine with his most extreme statements. They're fine with imprisoning journalists they disagree with. They're fine with, you know, they think that the political opposition is the enemy. So many Americans believe that now on the left and on the right. When we become enemies and there's not any common ground worth finding with the other side whatsoever.

How do you have a functioning democracy? I think that that is going to be the real test of the Democratic Party to really say to people, is this who you are? When he stands up there and explicitly embraces dictators and strong armed people and and has them coming, he quotes them commenting on an American election. If you vote for that, then you are right with that. I think that's what the Democrats have to say when he talks about how people from nonwhite countries in Central America and Africa, he names them, says that they are poisoning the blood of the country, which is as racist as you could get. I mean, what does he have to do, put on a Klan robe for us to understand that's racist? So, and you're talking about young blacks, you'll vote for that?

That's what you think of yourself, is that you're poisoning the blood of America. I think it's not about Biden. It's about who you are as a voter. Are you co-signing this kind of politics? And and John Mika, I think that this is what the real test for the Democrats are, is to not make it about them. Have everyone put a mirror in front of them and say, is this who I am? Am I a racist? And am I one that believes in fascism? Yeah. Jonathan O'Meara, let me ask you, though, you know, one year from now, it could be over. American democracy could be over. Donald Trump, one year from now, could win. He's told us what he's going to do. So when I say American

democracy is going to be over, I haven't said this. Donald Trump's a told us what he's going to do. When I say American democracy is going to be over, I haven't said this. Donald Trump's a guy that said he's the one that's talking about executing generals that are not loyal enough to him, the guy that's talking about terminating the Constitution if it gets in the way of his power. He's a guy that's talking about taking off news networks that he disagrees with. He's the guy that's talking about prosecuting and putting in jail people who disagree with him. He's the one saying that. So a year from now, it can all be over. The American experiment at an end, one year from now.

So let me ask you, with that being the case and with Joe Biden's poll numbers getting worse, why is the White House going around singing, don't worry, be happy? Because that's basically what they're saying. Why does Joe Biden still have all of his campaign people inside the White House going around singing, don't worry, be happy? Because that's basically what they're saying. Why does Joe Biden still have all of his campaign people inside the White House? When are they going to go out and start working on the campaign? Not of his lifetime, of our lifetime. When are they going to start acting like American democracy is on the line and stop telling everybody to not worry. Yeah. And I'll start by echoing what you just said. Anyone who thinks Donald Trump can't win

is kidding themselves. He absolutely can win. He has a one in two chance of winning. That's how close this is. And I don't think we have enough evidence to suggest that his legal troubles next year will derail him. There's poll after poll and really good work, really good work done over the really good work done over the weekend that suggests that even a conviction in one of these cases, likely that federal election interference case, wouldn't do enough to dent his support that he could still win even if convicted. Now, this is a Biden. The Biden campaign has been slow by design in ramping up. They have spent the last two months raising a lot of money. The president, particularly in recent weeks, has gone from fundraiser after fundraiser, night after night

after night. They think this is going to be a billion dollar campaign and they need that money. And that's been their focus. They also don't really have any kind of Democratic primaries. I mean, yes, Dean Phillips, whatever. He's largely being unchallenged here. So they think they have the luxury of time. That said, they already did respond to some pressure about a month or so ago, and they started ramping up the contrasts between Trump and Biden. They have done that. It's been a solid month. They've been on the offensive, including pouncing on Trump's comments over the weekend, the Hitler comparison. We had statements from both the campaign and White House. But you're right. The full-fledged campaign is still a month or two or more away.

They're going to they're letting the Republican process play out before they really ramp up. That's at least the plan for now. Not to say it can't change. But we're not going to see President Biden aggressively be out on the campaign trail for some weeks ahead. And there are some Democrats, Joe, who echo your worries, who feel like it might be getting too late. Get out there now. Well, maybe they would want to move some of the people from the White House that actually run campaigns over to run a campaign when we are less than one year away from democracy possibly ending. We will talk about this in a moment. But coming up in one minute, Rudy Giuliani is on the hook for almost 150 million dollars that a federal jury has ordered him to pay to Georgia election workers who he falsely accused of ballot fraud.

We'll talk to Chuck Rosenberg about the verdict and much more. Morning Joe is back in 60 seconds. Now, Giuliani has already been found liable This trial was just to determine damages Which ultimately came to 148 million dollars And he finally didn't help himself By showing no contrition And actually repeating his claims outside court on Monday

Just watch as his spokesman tries to shut him down I told the truth They were engaged in changing votes. There's no proof of that. Oh, you're damn right there is. Stay tuned. Rudy Giuliani, you see, today is the same man

who cleaned up the streets in New York, took down the mafia. The stipulation is in proof. I'll give you the proof. Let's go. We're loading our car. Wow. There is so much there that is pathetic. That man is desperately trying to coast off the guy that Giuliani was 20 years ago. It's the rare attempt to weekend at Bernie someone who is still alive.

Also, he bailed on that defense mid-sentence. Yeah, I was going to get to 9-11, but this has been a disaster. Just get in the car, Rudy. Former Trump lawyer Rudy Giuliani has been ordered to pay $148 million in damages for his role in defaming two 2020 election workers. An eight-person jury decided on the final amount after a four-day civil trial that saw Ruby Freeman and her daughter, Shea Moss, testify that

lies spread by Giuliani after the election led to them receiving a wave of racist and violent threats. Giuliani, along with the former President Trump and others, repeatedly amplified false conspiracy theories that Freeman and Moss were trying to change ballots in Georgia. During the course of the trial, Giuliani admitted these claims were untrue. Freeman spoke to reporters after the trial on Friday. Today's a good day. A jury stood witness to what Rudy Giuliani did to me and my daughter and held him accountable.

And for that, I'm thankful. For now, I want people to understand this. Money will never solve all of my problems. I can never move back into the house that I called home, I will always have to be careful about where I go and who I choose to share my name with. I miss my home. I miss my neighbors. And I miss my name. I'm going to say something. My God. You know, it's unbelievable. Giuliani had a statement. And what he says, the amount is absurd.

What's absurd is that soon after the election, after Rudy Giuliani spread that lie, people that I know from all over the country that supported Donald Trump were saying, did you see what happened in Georgia? Did you see what happened with the votes? Do you see those two black women, what they did with the votes? They took the votes out of a box like that happened because of Rudy Giuliani. And that lie was spread all over the country and Donald Trump all over the country. And their lives, as they knew it, effectively ended that day. Two election workers. Think about two election workers, the community. Let's bring in former U.S. attorney and MSNBC contributor Chuck Rosenberg.

Chuck, when you look at this outcome, what are the implications for other cases for Donald Trump? And I think the question everybody asks is, will Rudy Giuliani ever have to pay a dime of anything to anybody? Or how does he actually truly experience accountability here? Yeah, you know, that's a great question, Mika. So the jurors verdict, right, the seventy five million dollars in punitive damages sends a very clear signal to anybody inclined to do what Mr. Giuliani did not to do it. I mean, what he did was vile. What he did was egregiously wrong and dangerous.

I don't know that he has the money to pay. I think the odds of Ms. Freeman and Ms. Moss getting one hundred forty eight million dollars are about one hundred and forty eight million to one. It's very unlikely to happen. They may get something. They certainly deserve it. And their reputation. What's the impact on Rudy Giuliani's life moving forward? What's the impact on his life after this verdict? You know, he's a broken man, Joe. And I've never really enjoyed this whole thing of schadenfreude, you know, taking delight in the misery of others. That's not my thing. So what happens to him? The implications of a civil verdict pale in comparison to the implications of a criminal verdict against him. Remember, he's still under indictment in Georgia. There's still a chance that he gets convicted and goes to jail. The implications for him there are much more severe and much more significant than they are here. Does he ever have to pay money to these two good women?

I hope so. Will it be $148 million? Not a chance. But the implications for him in other matters that he faces are incredibly significant. He could go to jail. Now, Reverend Al, this is obviously a case you know a good bit about and followed it closely. What's your reaction to a verdict? And again, this is not about schadenfreude. This is about a man who destroyed two women's lives because they wanted to serve their country. A man still defaming them.

He ruined and he ruined their lives and he continues to defame them even today. He ruined their lives because he saw them as collateral damage to his political ends and he saw them as worthless. I think what the verdict and the amount that the jury gave is to show they're not worthless, whether they ever get one hundred and forty eight million dollars or not. The value of their lives has been affirmed by this jury. And that's important. And we must remember, Rudy Giuliani and I fought never got along, were antithetical or all of his morality. But I hate to see anyone that was the U.S. attorney of the most celebrated district in the country. And the mayor of the city of New York for eight years, Kim America's mayor, fought like this because it damages our perception of what those officers hold. So even though I dislike a lot of what Rudy Giuliani stood for and the like, it is not good for us to have people that had reached that level to fall like this

the reason he was believed is because of the positions he held he took a a stellar background and position and dumped on these innocent women that he felt was defenseless just like we fought over issues like stop and frisk. He felt people didn't matter. This verdict said people do matter and you can't use them as pawns for your political objectives. I think that's the significance of it. But I agree with Chuck. I don't think we ought to celebrate the demise of Rudy Giuliani. We ought to celebrate that people's worth has been underscored by this jury. No one is expendable.

So and I understand that I'm certainly not interested in celebrating anybody's demise. At the same time, when Donald Trump has this civil suit, when E. Jean Carroll sues him for defamation. And now these two women win a massive, massive amount in a defamation ruling. The question is, do people who are sued and lose in these civil suits actually experience any ramifications or can they declare bankruptcy? Can they kind of skirt the law? law. I wonder beyond the message that they have value and that they were defamed, the guy continues to defame them. So I want to understand what the consequences that actually stops the behavior. Because this is an intentional bankruptcy won't protect Rudy Giuliani. I do want to say this, John Meacham, and then we'll circle back to Chuck.

But, John, it seemed for the longest time you could say whatever you wanted to say in the world of Trump, in Trump's bubble, and it just didn't matter. You would have people go on TV every night just lying through their teeth, spreading vicious lies, attacking American democracy, saying American democracy was rigged. 188, 148 million dollar defamation verdict. We saw with Fox News after their hosts lied about voting machines, 787 million dollar verdict. We saw with Alex Jones lying about Sandy Hook parents, a one billion dollar verdict. There is still another billion or two to be sorted out for Fox News. Again, moving forward, there's always been in the law, there's always been the verdict

and then the collection and the collection process. Trust me, Mika, there are lawyers up and down the East Coast who will take that that verdict and will will spend the rest of their of Rudy Giuliani's days trying to recover that verdict because they'll strike a deal. Well, they'll get a percentage of whatever is recovered from Rudy Giuliani. But, John, as far as as far as the fair and open debate, I think it is worth celebrating that words still do matter. They're still for lies, for defamation, for for for attacking people, attacking American democracy. It still comes at a cost. I think a lot of it, don't you tell me you assess the validity of this statement, as college exams say. I think a lot of this came out of the, and the phrase is not mine, but the political entertainment media complex that has been this willingness to live in this world where everything was about the cable hit. Right. Everything was about the Chiron. Everything was about stirring up the base because the base is what kept your rating strong. I think that this is a case where there was this almost pretend world that actually now the folks who say this stuff realize that it's not pretend, that this is quite real, that there are people who are trying to count ballots.

There are people who are trying to ensure free and fair elections. There are people, there are judges and judges clerks, right? There are people who are trying to ensure free and fair elections. There are people there are judges and judges, clerks. Right. There are prosecutors. There are the civil servants that the president and the governor of Florida have both promised to fire as quickly as as as they can. So there are these people who make to bring this background to where we were, who make American democracy work. Is it perfect? No. As a large human enterprise, is it more perfect that we have much of a right to expect? Yeah, I think so. And so why aren't we lifting up the process? Why aren't we reaffirming these guardrails?

And which is what the founders wanted, which is what conservatives, hello, are supposed to want. Right. There's an entire judicial philosophy that is dominant on the Supreme Court for all sorts of political reasons. That's about the original intent of a document that is about checking ambition. And if it's going to take the civil courts, if it's going to take the criminal courts to do it, then let's pray and work for the legitimacy of those institutions. Will any of this change the 2024 election? I don't know, but I do know this. We're certainly not going to do ourselves any favors if we shut up about it.

If we say that, oh, it's really about the economy. A presidential election is about whatever X hundred million people want it to be about. But it seems to me the obligation of folks who want the Constitution to endure is to defend that Constitution. It's again, it's not simple. It's not simple, but it is straightforward. Exactly. You know, people who claim to be conservatives are the people who are supposed to conserve what is great, what is best, conserve the Constitution of the United States, conserve what is best about this country. And this weekend you and not stay silent, as you say, John, as as people are attacking America this weekend. You had the guy who's who's most likely going to be the nominee for the Republican Party, the so-called conservative party. And what did he do, Elise? He quoted Vladimir Putin in talking about how rotten America was.

So-called conservatives constantly attacking and bashing the United States military are men and women in uniform who are stronger now than they've ever been. And yet you have Republican senators that are saying they're weaker now than they've ever been just because they don't like who's in office for three or four years. And so you have one institution after another. You have so-called conservatives saying that they want to tear down the FBI. They want to tear down the Justice Department. They want to tear down education. They want to tear down the military. And again, here we have Donald Trump praising dictators from North Korea and communist China and Russia. And again, quoting a Russian tyrant who says American democracy is, quote, rotten.

And Donald Trump quotes that person positively and channels Adolf Hitler. And when Lindsey Graham is asked about it, he says he couldn't care less. How's that for conserving what's most precious about our constitutional republic? I mean, Donald Trump consistently demonstrates that he has no concern for American strength, American greatness, the American people outside of his own personal self-interest. That's why he is happy for any foreign dictator to do anything that might, by some extension, reflect poorly on Biden's leadership. And you're looking at how he is getting his supporters ready for his most

radicalized supporters for this next round. And it's not about any specific policy issues as much as it is his grievances and the grievances that he is channeling through them and that he represents at this stage. And the comments are so stark and so disgusting and just the historical parallels so chilling that it's unbelievable that we still at this phase don't take it that seriously. When we know history, we know what has happened before. And I do think the media has done a better job of talking about the stakes of this next election and not just the race itself. And they simply couldn't be higher. And Chuck, as part of that conversation earlier, I cited sort of the conventional wisdom that the one trial that could conclude before voters go to the polls is the federal election interference trial,

the January 6th trial, as it's been shorthanded. But there's been interesting moves there in recent days where the Trump team is suggesting he should have immunity from prosecution there. Jack Smith is looking to fast track this, maybe move it all the way to the Supreme Court. Give us your analysis as to where things stand with these legal machinations. Yeah, you know, Jonathan, like you, I always thought that that particular trial currently scheduled for March 4th of next year would be the one most likely to go and conclude before the next election. I don't think that that date is doomed. I do think that date is endangered. And it's for the reasons you say. Mr. Trump, as this is right,

has appealed to the next highest court, the D.C. Circuit Court of Appeals, arguing that he is immune as president from acts that he takes while in office. I don't think he's right. I think he loses that. To your question, though, how long does it take for him to lose that? Is that a question the Supreme Court will hear immediately and unusually so before the appellate court? Or will the Supreme Court let it go to the appellate court, which will the Supreme Court let it go to the appellate court, which is typical, and then hear the case? If it's that second thing, Jonathan, that could take months, if not longer. If the Supreme Court is willing to hear that question now, and again, I think it's resolved in favor of Jack Smith and the government. I don't believe

that a president has immunity for criminal conduct while president. That's an absurd result. But the question remains, how long does it take us to get to the right answer? And will we have an answer before the next election? And can we try that case and perhaps others before voters go to the polls? Again, I don't think the March trial date is doomed, but it is certainly in danger. Wow. Chuck Rosenberg, thank you very much for joining us on this Monday morning. And John Meacham, thank you as well. Good to see you both. And coming up, anger with the Israeli government is growing after the country's military admits to mistakenly killing hostages. It calms as there's new reporting on the money that funded the Hamas terror attacks.

Israel apparently discovered the network years ago. Netanyahu's government did nothing to stop it. No real effort. We'll go through that ahead on Morning Joe. It's not that he thinks that guys have gotten better. He just thinks there have been better opportunities led by Purdy. Curls out of trouble. Downfield.

Wide open. McCaffrey gets up to run with it for the touchdown. Carr looking. Now throws. End zone. Touchdown touchdown to Juan Johnson. Cup in motion. Stafford off the play fake. Looking long for Cooper Cup.

He's wide open. He's got it in stride. He's got to go in. Mike Cavins got Rashad White, but Chris Godwin's been fantastic. Third and four, and that pass is caught by Moore. First down and Moore. David Moore exploding to the end zone. Down second and four.

Same look that began the drive, and it's a screen to Edward Talaire, who's got a convoy into Patriots territory, stays on his feet, stays inbounds, and takes it all the way to the 15. Dolphins begin at their own 40. Going deep. Going deep. Right there! What a perfect pass and play. And the touchdown to Jalen Waddell. Cook again. Why not? James Cook through everyone and he scores again. Fields, chased by Garrett, flushed, looking, sets up, throwing deep. Hail Mary, end zone, deflected, tipped, and intercepted. Oh, come on.

Come on, man. That's amazing. That is a guy who will never get a drink poured for him in Chicago again. Look at some of the highlights from yesterday's NFL games, including the 49ers clinching the NFC West with a win over the Cardinals, a bounce-back victory for the Chiefs after last week's meltdown. And you just saw it, the nail-biting final play in the Brown-Bears game. Browns escaping a victory over the Bears after Chicago nearly converted the game-winning

Hail Mary. Touchdown on the last second attempt. Let's bring in right now the host. Pablo Torre finds out on Metal Arc Media, ESPN's Pablo Torre. Pablo. All right, so we saw a lot of great highlights. Yay, go NFL. And I can't wait to talk to you about how great the 49ers are.

Sure. How I mean, how the Bills just came out of nowhere and crushed a rising Dallas team. But first, let's follow up on your your your thesis for the year. And I certainly agree with you. This is such a mediocre league. Three, four years ago. Thank you. You can watch game after game after game and just sit there going, well, there's a reason.

That's why they played that. They're the best. Now I'm sitting there going, oh, my God, you run your route that way? Oh, my God, you can't even turn around and, like, block back? There is just genuinely horrific play. We're used to seeing that in college, right? We're used to seeing college go, well, the college players. But in the pros, you're right.

Brady's right. There's so much mediocrity in the NFL this year. Yeah, and it's okay to say it. You know, the NFL is our lone remaining monoculture. Well, the NFL and Taylor Swift, which is not coincidental, of course, how they've come together in a story we may or may not talk about. But the reality is that it's okay to point out that we all watch this thing, even if it's not that good. That's the reality of it.

And, in fact, maybe the reason why we are looking towards the skybox, towards Taylor Swift, is because what's on the field is not quite as interesting lately. And this is coming from a person who has been addicted to various forms of football, fantasy and otherwise, for two decades. This season is just not the season. What's your operating theory here? My operating theory? Well, I think there's a lot of quarterbacks getting injured, Joe. I think that's a big part of it.

We can talk about Jake Browning and Joe Flacco. These are guys piloting playoff teams right now in the in the Bengals and the Browns somehow. And then it does not end there. And look, John Lemire is to my left and he's a Patriots fan. And also there's just the idea that the institutions we relied on. I think this might be something you talk about on your show. The institutions that this country has come to rely on are not quite so resilient anymore. And Bill Belichick seems to be one of those as well. So it's from the top and the bottom of the league

that's crumbling at this point. So, Pablo, let's talk about the good now. We've talked about the ugly, the mediocre. Let's talk about the good. And it's so funny, we've gone in these phases. You know, 49ers were the dominant team. Then, you know, they crushed the Cowboys. But then they had their comeuppance two or three games.

You then had the Eagles, who then got beaten badly by the Cowboys. So then it was the Cowboys. All right, this is Dak's year. And then, man, last night, not a car accident, a train wreck of a game for Dak and the Cowboys. Talk about it. Yeah, being a Dallas Cowboys fan is a particularly strange form of kink, I would say.

I realize now how early in the morning it is for me to say that word, but go with me here. The reality, Joe, is that they know what it's like to feel pleasure. They were so good when I was growing up, the Dallas Cowboys. Everybody sort of expects them to be just around the corner perpetually this is America's team and there is a shame in what always happens ritualistically now around this time of year around December January certainly February and and they were punched in the face repeatedly Reverend Dallas to my right Reverend Alice seen Mike Tyson do this to people what the Buffalo Bills did to the Dallas Cowboys, just run the ball in their face over and over again.

Josh Allen threw for fewer than 100 yards, but James Cook, their running back, ran for almost 200. It did not stop. It was just predictable and overwhelming. And by the end, the Buffalo Bills look like, yeah, they're a class ahead of the Cowboys, which in a league of great parody slash mediocrity, I feel like that's just what we should expect from now on. I also think in terms of a theory as to why the play has diminished, we had so many years where offense was king, and the defense has sort of made some adjustments, and the league's kind of run out of rules to change to help the offense.

So I think that's part of it, too. We had the end of some storylines yesterday. The Tommy DeVito era came crashing back to Earth for the Giants, the New York Jets' faint playoff hopes, and Aaron Rodgers' alleged comeback. That seems like that's gone too. There are two teams, though, that are playing pretty well right now. The Ravens last night, they win Sunday football. They beat the Jaguars. They're the top seed in AFC. And we mentioned them briefly, but the 49ers do look like the one good team. Now, they're top heavy. There are injury concerns there.

That could be a problem. But right now, they look like they're Super Bowl-bound. Yeah, this is the team atop my power pole right now, the 49ers. Their problem, their controversy, is whether Brock Purdy is the MVP of the league. That's what qualifies as controversy in San Francisco right now because Brock Purdy, if you did not know, Mr. Irrelevant was the last pick in the draft a year or so ago. And he comes in, there was four touchdowns in this game,

leads the league in every conceivable statistical passing category. But the problem is that Brock Purdy thinks the MVP of the NFL is Christian McCaffrey, his teammate, who's one of these guys who are very fast and very strong, and they are utilized in this offensive scheme that is brilliant and so that's the controversy is brock purdy better than his own teammates and therefore the best player in the nfl it's a rare thing to be spoiled by that many riches yeah and the the answer to that is i i love brock i really do but christian mccaffrey next level. Just next level. Debo also, my God, it's so fun watching Debo. Oh my God, it's amazing. So let's talk about a team that for some bizarre reason I've always loved following, who's having a good year this year, the Browns. The Browns. You talk about Joe Flacco. What are they, nine and five now?

There is no more shocking fact about the NFL. You take nothing away from this conversation. The Browns being nine and five does feel hallucinatory. And the idea here, Joe, is that the other Joe Flacco is back in the NFL. He wasn't playing at all last season. This is, of course, a former Super Bowl winner with the Ravens a bazillion years ago. And here he is. Here's Joe Flacco rolling out as if he's a young man again.

And, look, part of the function of mediocrity is that you're going to get a bunch of teams in the playoffs that aren't actually that good. I suspect that the 9-5 Browns are not going to be long for the postseason. But in the meantime, you have a game like this with an ending, by the way, an ending that I, I don't even think we can give credit to the Browns in any real way for this, but there's a, there's a hailberry at the end. Justin Fields winds up, you'll see it in a little bit, I presume. And it's just the thing that happens is a, there it is. It's a metaphor for any election result you'd like to claim. Right. It's in your hands. You're on the ground.

You've almost possessed it. And there it goes into the hands of a waiting defensive back. So, you know, Pablo, you know what I love about sports commentators like you? You're like political commentators like you. You're like political commentators like me. So, Sunday morning. Where's this going? Well, you know, the thing is, we'll go, oh, you know, you hear, oh, Joe Biden, it's going to lose. It's going to be the worst thing ever.

There's going to be a red wave. He's the biggest idiot of all time. How could he be so stupid? You know, and then the day after the election, no red wave. They're like, you know, Joe Biden's pretty smart. So I'm driving at 515 Sunday morning to go get Starbucks for Mika, who pushes me out of bed at five o'clock and says I need my Starbucks. What do I do? I turn on the radio. I think it was the ESPN or maybe it was the NFL Network.

And I turn it on, and what do I hear but, you know, we have to just come to terms with the fact that Jared Goff is playing the best, best football of his life. It's an extraordinary run from this young man. I've been hearing for three weeks, four weeks, Jared Goff, it's over. The Lions need to trade him. They need to bring in a young quarterback. He's toast.

But, man, Saturday night, that guy lit it up. And the Lions, 10-4. How exciting. Yeah, Joe, you've been on this story in a way that makes you look, unfortunately, more prescient than a lot of the gas bags like myself, who really didn't pay much attention to the Jared Goff experience in Detroit when it started. But you're right. He was a cast off, a former number one overall pick, of course, with the Rams. Wasn't good enough to be their Super Bowl winning quarterback. They got rid of him, sent him to Detroit for Matthew Stafford.

And here are the Lions atop the NFC. Joe, they've secured at least 10 wins for the first time since 2014. It's what I'm reading off the bottom of the screen for the first time, which is shocking to me. Shocking to me, but this is real. It's a real thing what that backflip, forward flip, excuse me, is indicating about the city of Detroit. You know, what's exciting about this team is, again,

last year they started out 1-5, and we were talking about how they were the best 1-5 team I ever saw. It's a great message to any team that's doing poorly. You know, just keep at it. Can I ask you one other question about this? What is Sean Payton's deal with his quarterback? you know, just keep at it. Can I ask you one other question about this? What is Sean Payton's deal with his quarterback? And I'm dead serious.

He's been a jerk to a guy who I think could be a future Hall of Famer. He's been a jerk to Wilson since he first got there, a good guy. And he's yelling at him after Sean Payton didn't challenge two. Count them. Oh, you noticed that one. Two touchdowns. You noticed that one. The Broncos had two touchdowns. He should have challenged them. They would have been called.

And what does he do after blowing it? He yells at his quarterback, Russell Wilson. Yeah, I'm not sure if there's a platform on national television with more empathy for Russell Wilson than your desk, Joe. You've been looking out for Russell Wilson. He has been underrated, to your point. Another one of your favorites who has been overperforming the criticism. But Sean Payton, I mean, Joe, keep in mind that Sean Payton, post-Bounty Gate, had to take a year off. And there was like a Kevin James movie about this, I believe, which must have been frustrating on various levels for Sean Payton to experience. But this is a man with many pent up frustrations. And so he comes into this team having taken over Russell Wilson, who was so disastrous last season.

The Broncos were an embarrassment last season. And Sean Payton is trying to prove the difference maker is me the guy who couldn't coach for a year I'm the genius and so you are seeing the frustration of um aspirational brilliance in a guy who wants to be on the field but of course has the headset instead yeah yeah hey let me hear did you did you see the game did you see how Sean payton actually let two touchdowns go by without stopping the game and he cost his team seven points on two plays and then he decides after it's over to go yell at russell wilson now here's my deal with russell wilson first of all a great guy but you don't go from possibly being a future hall of Famer to having one bad season in

Denver and suddenly being garbage. He's a really, really good player, and he has been. But, Lamere, did you see that? Yeah, I did. It's been a weird year for Sean Payton. Let's remember, his team gave up 70 points, 70 to the Dolphins earlier in the season. That's on the head coach, not the quarterback. But then they ripped off, I think, five straight wins at one point, seemingly back in the playoff picture. And then they got throttled Saturday night. And, you know, that coach of the year, Sean Payton Buzz, has sort of probably vanished along with it. But it does seem like probably that he inherited Russell Wilson and didn't really want him there. You know, Russell Wilson, always a favorite of mine for the goal line interception he threw in the Super Bowl against the Patriots.

But, you know, he has, to Joe's point, had a good career. Yeah, he was lousy last year. But it doesn't seem like he's done. But we're now stuck with this very strange dynamic. Yeah, did you want to talk about the Patriots, by the way, John? I mean, we can very briefly address this. Yeah, address what happened there. It is another humbling defeat.

But right now we have the second pick in the draft. There it is. The question is whether or not Bill Belichick will be the one to make that selection. Man, this was funny. This was funny. This game was funny to me because I was thinking of John pretty much the whole time. Thank you. Just the misery.

The misery. And by the way, I want to point this out about Taylor Swift. We mentioned her at the top of this whole thing. We've talked a lot about how the Taylor Swift effect is changing the NFL. If you were to look at the video of Taylor Swift watching now her Kansas City Chiefs, it's very clear the NFL has radicalized Taylor Swift. She was cursing. She was yelling.

She was furious. As furious as Patrick Mahomes, who was spiking his helmet on the ground after he threw two picks in this game. It was a home game for Taylor Swift, John, is what this felt like. I tried to stay away from it, but that was the storyline of this game. You guys brought out Jon Bon Jovi. No offense, but Jon Bon Jovi. Overshadowed.

The AP recap. I just want to point this out for the record here. Historically, there was a, quote, a tepid reaction in comparison to Taylor Swift for Mr. Bon Jovi, which feels unjust, but i'm just reporting the facts i'm just reporting the facts taylor swift i mean come on what do you expect by the way pablo let's let's just let's mark it down pablo has admitted pablo has admitted yeah there is truth the fact i was responsible for saving comingan coming to Alabama and ahead of the curve on the Detroit Lions. How much does that hurt?

It's warranted, but fortunately true. Yeah, so far. ESPN's Pablo Torre, thank you so much. Good to see you again.