Morning Joe - Morning Joe 12/18/24

Episode Date: December 18, 2024

Some GOP senators express concern over RFK Jr.

I walk into my meeting with Mr. Kennedy with an open mind. I can tell you this, I have reached one conclusion. He should fire his lawyer, the one that petitioned the FDA to get rid of the polio vaccine. He should call his lawyer up and say, look man, stop dipping into your ketamine stash. Polio vaccine has saved hundreds and hundreds of millions of lives in the world. His lawyer didn't want to just study the vaccine. He wanted to get rid of the polio vaccine.

And that's bone deep down to the marrow of Stupak as far as I'm concerned. There you go. That's one way of putting it. Republican Senator John Kennedy of Louisiana criticizing a lawyer who works for RFK Jr. who has asked the FDA to revoke its approval of the polio vaccine. We'll have more from Capitol Hill on RFK Jr.'s bid to become the leader of HHS. I've got to say though, Willie, it is fascinating. We talked about this before that you're going to have senators, some of whom you may not

expect, have different issues with different nominees. And with a margin so small, that can make all the difference in the world. And it's gonna be very interesting to see if RFK Jr. is going to back off his autism claim on autism and vaccines. He hasn't done that yet. And there are a lot of people like Senator Kennedy that grew up in states in the deep South that saw just sort of,

just the extraordinary difference in Southern states and poorer states like a lot of them that I grew up in, the difference that vaccines made over the years. Yeah, we've seen some suggestive criticism of some of the nominees, that they have more questions, they look forward to the hearings. This yesterday from Republicans, Tom Tillis was another one Republican of North Carolina, just full-throated criticism of Robert F. Kennedy Jr.

And it's pretty easy to do. I mean, he put it out there. He's saying the polio vaccine, he is on tape saying the polio vaccine has killed more people than polio itself over the years so that's on tape so I don't know how he walks away from all the things that have become his life's work over the last couple of decades that among other things yeah it's not it's who he is it's it's it's effectively why he's a prominent figure now is because

of all this vaccine skepticism and the suggestion debunked by science that these vaccines are connected to autism. Also, oh sorry, also ahead, NBC's Keir Simmons joins us live from Moscow with the latest in the bombing attack that killed a top Russian general. Plus, the man charged in the murder of the CEO of UnitedHealthcare could soon be headed to New York. We'll have the very latest developments in that case.

And Donald Trump, awake just a few hours ago, posting about one of his perceived political enemies, Liz Cheney. It comes as House Republicans are calling for the former Congresswoman to be investigated for her work on the January 6th committee. And, and, Jonathan O'Meara, Republicans in the House are going to have a one vote majority. They are living in a bubble. They're going to have to work with Democrats. We're seeing that.

We're gonna be talking to Hakeem Jeffries today, and they're going to be able to pass Mike Johnson's bill only if Democrats allow that to happen and you have these subcommittees coming out talking about arresting political opponents like recommending investigations into that. I mean the margins are so bare in the House and in the Senate. These people are acting like they won by 20, 25 percentage points. And I will say even inside the people close to Donald Trump, they have been saying for weeks now, no retribution. He's not going to do retribution.

We don't have time for retribution. I mean, this sort of talk early on, it's bad for everybody. It's bad for the House Republicans. It's bad for Donald Trump. It's bad for, you know, the markets. I mean, this is what we've been talking about. Retribution blew back on Democrats through the years. Donald Trump will probably be the first to say that he got elected in part because he was sitting at a criminal defendants table this summer and made him a martyr. You put Liz Cheney there or you even talk about it.

You even talk about it. You even talk about it. And you put out these stupid reports that this House subcommittee has put out, you're making her a martyr. You're making her bigger. You're making her more powerful. You're making her everything... More important. That these people would not want to make her. But they're doing it.

They're playing right into her hands. Yeah, in one of Trump's overnight social posts, he claimed he had the largest mandate in 129 years. That's obviously not true at all. He won by less than two points, but also neither do Republicans. The margin of the Senate, relatively slim. And as you say, the House, it's about one vote. They're going to need Democrats' help.

This is not the way to get it. And we're seeing here a familiar dynamic that we saw the first Trump administration as well, where his team will put together a plan, even occasionally trying to work across the aisle, work on immigration, try to get a deal done. And then Trump himself gives in to his worst impulses, those impulses of division or revenge or whatever it might be, and blows it up himself with some sort of tweet or true social posts or other irrational action. And we're seeing that already now where he is going to come. He doesn't have a 129 year mandate, but he's got a unified Washington.

There is an ability to get some things done that he wants at the beginning of this term. It's not going to happen if the focus is retribution, if the focus is revenge on political enemies, which certainly would alienate Democrats and make them not incentivized to help him at all. Well, and it's very simple. You've got a one vote majority in the House. You see how close, Mike, things hang in the Senate. I do think that things are going to be much different on January the 20th when we move out of a bubble where everybody's just looking at X and Trump world, and they're

thinking that's the reality, you look at the Emerson poll that recently came out, you know, even tariffs against Canada, wildly unpopular. The state of Canada. 50. Oh. Wildly unpopular. And by the way, that's a great way to get Canadians actually united together. You look at pardons for January 6th convicts. Wildly unpopular.

Again, right now they're in this bubble. They won. And so all these Republicans are running around acting like they had a mandate. They won by one percentage point. They won Wisconsin by less than one percentage point. Let me just say, and I'm sucking to be grub this yesterday, everybody needs to take a deep breath. Everybody needs to take a deep breath.

Because people are going, oh, this is the age of Elon. Oh, this is the age of Elon, oh this is the age of the bro culture, oh America is dorted so far right. Let's take Wisconsin, the bellwether state of bellwether states. Kamala Harris lost by less than one percentage point because of the bro culture, right? Wrong. They elected a lesbian woman as senator on this same day. The same thing with Michigan.

Oh, the bro culture. No. They elected a woman senator. The same day, Vick Connelly Harris lost by one and a half points. A woman who was running the shortest presidential campaign in American history, right? So all I'm saying is here we are. Everybody's over reading this. Everybody's saying, you know, it's like sackcloth and ashes for Democrats. Oh, we've got to change everything.

Whoa, this was the greatest defeat in the... No, no, there's no sweeping change here as far as what the American people said. It's like one percentage point and come January 20th, you start looking at policies. If they try to dart two for one direction or the other, we're going to see what happened in the first term. Democratic wins in 17, 18, 19, and 20. Everybody needs to be very careful not to over-read the 1% landslide. Well, you're right about all of that.

I mean, the Republicans in the House with the one-vote majority, they have become a tick-tock, tough-talk party. That's all they do. They say what they said yesterday about Liz Cheney and hopefully get 30 or 45 seconds on TikTok and shovel it out to their districts. And then what do they have to do today? They have to depend on a lot of democratic votes to even keep the government running. Yeah, but there's another element to it.

And I would submit that it's around the president-elect, tweeting at 3.30 this morning, whatever it was he tweeted or texted or what's it? Truth social. Truth social. Sorry. No, it's not. Truth social. Correction.

I don't want to be charged with anything. We overreact to him. We overreact to every excess, every lie, every bizarre statement he makes, which is what he wants and what he's getting again. It's how he got elected in 2016. It's how he got reelected the second time out in November. We overreact to everything. I can tell you, just ordinary people out there in the country, when they hear this, when

they hear what he said, when he hears what we say about it or other people say about it and millions of people write about it in the papers, you know what they do? They tape their eyelids open in order to stay awake. They're so sick of it. Right. But we continue to do it. Well, Eddie, talk about the danger of Democrats overreacting to a 1% landslide. And again, I talk about Wisconsin. I just want to keep going

back because everybody's over reading this as some radical swing to the far right, where in Wisconsin, Kamala Harris lost by less than one percentage point, and the Wisconsin voters re-elected a lesbian Democratic senator. It doesn't sound like this sweeping lunge to the far far right to me. No I think you're absolutely right in that regards Joe and I think we need to begin to think more carefully about the split ticket voting that happened across the country not only with regards to senator senatorial campaigns or but also with

regards to the abortion initiatives on the ballot initiatives as well. We need to kind of unpack that and not draw these conclusions that lead to abandoning the base and the like and the other thing. But I think the interesting thing, the point that you're making that I think we need to emphasize and underline is that we don't need to overreach or overreact, but we also need to understand the damage that can be done

by these folk while they're in office. So they will overreach. They will do what they do. And we don't need to overreact, but we need to be mindful of the damage that they can do in four years. Right. And cover it. Also with us this morning, columnist and associate editor for The Washington Post, David Ignatius,

who will be perfect as we cover our top story this morning. Go ahead, Bill. Yeah, I want to get David's take on this. Russian officials say a man has been arrested in connection to yesterday's assassination of a top general. According to Russia's investigative committee, the suspect is a Uzbekistan national in his 20s who was promised $100,000 and European residence as payment for detonating a bomb in Moscow

and killing the head of Russia's nuclear, biological and chemical defense forces. Ukraine's security service already had claimed responsibility yesterday for the death of the general. Join us now live from the site of the bombing in Moscow, NBC News chief international correspondent, Kir Simmons. Kir, what more can you tell us? Well, really, it's pretty extraordinary to be standing here, honestly. This is where Lieutenant General Igor Karelov was assassinated just over 24 hours ago. You can see the damage outside the door of his apartment block, the metal twisted, the bricks blown off and flowers left. As you mentioned, Willie, there is now a

bombing suspect. The Russian media is naming him as Akhmed Khabanov, 29 years old, as you say, from Uzbekistan, detained outside Moscow, and Russian media is showing a video of him apparently confessing, although of course that was filmed according to Russian media by the Russian authorities and we only have the Russian authorities testimony that he has indeed

confessed to what happened here. Standing here you can see what a precise operation honestly this was because Korilov would have walked out of this apartment and then you could see in the video of the explosion that his car was parked out in the road in the street just here. So a very short sidewalk, the time they had to set off this explosive. The video of the assassination was a film from the back of a car. It looks like that car was parked somewhere where that red vehicle is across the street there. There's actually windows smashed in the building across the street there. There's actually a window smashed in the building across the street. Again, a testimony to the kind of power of this explosion.

And according to Russian investigators, and this now has been the description, both from the Russian side and from sources on the Ukrainian side. Explosives were put attached in some way to a scooter that was lent against the wall here and then detonated as this senior Russian general walked out. The Russians are saying that they are working to catch those responsible, that they've already caught this particular man, this 29-year-old.

What isn't being said here by many openly is how did an assassination like this take place in southeast Moscow? You know, we are miles from the Kremlin. How was that possible? But that is a real question. We haven't heard yet from President Putin. He's due to give, to hold his annual question and answer session here in Moscow tomorrow. I suspect we'll hear from him then.

Ukrainian security services showing their reach there. Extraordinary. NBC's Keir Simmons reporting for us from Moscow. Keir, thanks so much. So David Ignatius, what does this tell you about the ability of Ukraine to go deep now into Moscow? There have been limitations for so long about the kind of weapons that they were going to be able to use offensively across the border.

There have been some restrictions put by the United States and others on those. But what does this tell you, this incident, this death, apparent killing of this general? Willie, I think it's a significant escalation in the tactics that the Ukrainians have used, their intelligence services have been able to operate outside Ukraine's borders, that conduct operations inside Russia, as far away as Africa, in Syria. But this targeted assassination and more the fact that the day before the bomb exploded, the Russian Internal Security Service, excuse me, the Ukrainian Internal Security Service, called the SBU, identified General Kirolov, the target, as somebody who bore responsibility

for chemical weapons attacks in Ukraine. That was his area. He was controlling chemical, biological, radiological weapons. So they named the person and then the next day the person is dead. And the SBU, the Ukrainian intelligence agency, specifically took credit for that attack. No ambiguity at all. We did it. Here's footage to show that we did it, which they gave to news media in Kiev.

This is the first attack like this in Moscow I'm aware of since a notorious attack in 2022 that killed the daughter of a prominent pro-war Russian writer. Her name was Daria Dugina, and she was killed similarly by a car bomb in Moscow that was — who believed intended for her father and just happened to hit the daughter. The U.S. then, I'm told, confirmed in Kiev, warned the intelligence agencies in Ukraine, don't do this. We have evidence that you did it. Don't do it. And for the White you did it. Don't do it.

And for the White House, this kind of operation has consistently been a worry. They view it as escalatory, provocative. What the White House in its remaining few weeks will do to try to restrain Ukrainian operations is hard to say, but the Russians are certain to respond to this aggressively. Well, and David, of course, the talk of truce, conversations of a ceasefire, of course, have been going around in Washington and across Europe. This obviously seems to be a setback. Are we looking at the Ukrainians trying to prove they have reached all the way into Moscow at the highest echelons of Russia's power structure and maybe to try to get a better deal at the negotiating table

eventually? Joe, I think everything at this stage is about, at least in part about, trying to gain leverage for the negotiations that everybody knows are coming. President-elect Trump makes that clear in every statement he makes about Ukraine. So the Ukrainians want to add another chip on their side of the table. Interestingly, the Russian response yesterday was to accuse Ukraine of trying to prolong the war

with this operation. Interesting way that they'd choose to denounce the Ukrainians. The Trump White House is gonna have the same problem that the Biden White House has, which is restraining the Ukrainian intelligence agencies is no easy task. But that's fallen to Jake Sullivan,

National Security Advisor. Not easy for him will not be easy for his successor, Mike Walz. All right, still ahead on Morning Joe, we're going to take a closer look at President Biden's priorities for his remaining days in office. National Security Adviser Jake Sullivan will join us at the table to weigh in on that as well as the ongoing efforts to secure a ceasefire and hostage release deal in Gaza. You're watching Morning Joe.

We're back in just 90 seconds. National security adviser Jake Sullivan has returned from the Middle East after stops in Israel, Qatar and Egypt. It comes as the Biden administration continues to push for a ceasefire and hostage release deal in Gaza. To that end, NSC official Brett McGurk stayed behind in the region to continue working on a possible deal. Joining us now, White House National Security Adviser Jake Sullivan on the set with us.

Good to have you. Thanks for having me. What can you tell us about efforts toward any type of deal? Well, Mika, as you know, we've been close before, and we've expressed optimism. We've gotten close to the finish line, and we haven't gotten over the finish line. So we are wary about making predictions or promises, but this is close. And with enough pushing from the outside mediators and the commitment of Israel and Hamas, we can get it done.

I was in Israel, as you said, just a few days ago. I sat with Prime Minister Netanyahu, and Prime Minister Netanyahu made clear at this moment Israel is ready to do this deal. So the final piece of the puzzle from my perspective is for Hamas ultimately to come forward with a commitment on the release of hostages in that first phase of a multi-phase deal.

If we can get that done, we can have a ceasefire, we can get hostages home, and we can get a surge of humanitarian assistance into Gaza. David Ignatius is with us in Washington, has a question for you. David? Jake, I just want to take you a little further into the negotiations to get this hostage release by asking, what is the blockage that's still holding up this deal? It seemed close, you said, a few days ago. And how are you going to break through the remaining blockage? What are the leverage points with Hamas, which sounds like the principal remaining

stumbling block? David, it's a great question. I think there are two ways to look at the obstacles to getting across the finish line. One of the details and the other is the big picture. On the details, they are working through the names of hostages who would come out in the first phase, the names of the prisoners who'd be released as part of the exchange, and then some specific details about the disposition of Israeli forces during the ceasefire. So small details, but those can be worked out. The big picture question is, is Hamas prepared to just finally say, yes, let's do it?

I think we've reached that point with Israel. And the question is, can we reach that point with Hamas? And I think the entire world, including the mediators, Egypt and Qatar, need to call upon Hamas to finally say yes and do this deal. So Jake what is acceptable to Israel from Hamas? What is Hamas asking for that the prime minister that the Israelis have said okay I guess we can live with that if it brings our hostages home because as you know better than anyone at this table and better than most people in the world

negotiating with a terrorist group is not something you do lightly because you don't know what they'll do next. Right. So, as you know, the deal is set out in multiple phases. The first phase is about making sure that we can get out certain key groups of hostages, the remaining women, the elderly, and the wounded and sick. So the real question right now is, is Hamas prepared to have that full group of people, all of those who are women, elderly, and wounded and sick come out?

And until they confirm they are prepared to do that, we remain in this position where we're close to the finish line but not over it. And you're totally right, you can't trust a terrorist group like Hamas. But we did do a hostage deal last year that got 78 hostages out. Hamas made a commitment. We verified that commitment and then every day 10 hostages came out and ultimately we got 78.

So it is possible to do this. But what is Hamas asking for as part of this deal in exchange for releasing the hostages that is it a state? What are they asking for that the prime minister has said we're open to that. So the first phase of the deal includes an exchange of Hamas prisoners or Palestinian prisoners for hostages coming out and it includes a substantial surge in humanitarian assistance into Gaza hundreds and hundreds of trucks every day and that's not because the United States or anyone else is trying to hold those back.

It's because if you have a ceasefire in place, if there is calm in Gaza, it is that much easier to move very large quantities of humanitarian assistance around because you're not moving it around in a war zone. So those are the kinds of things that the people of Gaza stand ready to benefit from in this deal if Hamas would say yes. You know Jake with the chaos throughout the Middle East with the war against Hezbollah, very effective war against Hezbollah with Syria falling, it seems that the dire humanitarian situation in Gaza has sort

of fallen to the back pages. Talk about how extreme the suffering is right now. How absolutely extreme the suffering is for the people of Gaza. Well, first, Joe, too many innocent people have died in Gaza as a result of the military activity there since October 7th. So you have civilian casualties in addition to the very large number of militant casualties of Hamas, including the killing of the very top- Right, right. Now, I bet I'm talking famine, I'm talking about jail. So there's that piece, and that's what I'm talking about. I'm not talking about Hamas.

Right. So there's the death of innocent civilians. And then for those living in Gaza, there is acute suffering. They're going through hell. They are having a hard time accessing a sufficient amount of food, water, sanitation, medical care. And part of that is because in any war zone, it is difficult to get that stuff to people who are caught in the crossfire. In this particular case, it is especially difficult because of the nature of Gaza. It's an area people can't leave. Usually civilians can leave war zones.

Here Egypt's not going to let them leave. They're not going to go into Israel. So the unique and acute nature of the suffering here is something that we do not see it as unusual. Is Israel doing everything it can do to allow humanitarian assistance to go in for children, for people suffering from famine, to get the sort of medical care that these people are not getting right now.

Is Israel doing enough? At many points over the course of the past year plus now, we have said Israel has to do more. And when I was just in Israel a few days ago, I kept pressing that. I said, yes, more is getting in, yet more has to get in. And we went through details in a way I don't think really any national security advisor ever has.

What are the crossings? How many trucks? What's on the trucks? How do we maintain security along the route so those trucks aren't looted? Things that get down to the minute details because those details can be the difference between someone getting to eat and not getting to eat, an innocent woman or child in Gaza. So this is something we take very seriously. I believe we have made progress in the last month, but progress is not enough. We need to get to a point where everybody is getting the life-saving sustenance they need.

So Jake, let's turn to Syria. After the stunningly swift fall of Assad, real questions as to what comes next. Fears that Syria could be a launching ground for terrorism again. Fears that the new government could backslide into a Taliban-esque situation. What is your read on this rebel group? Can they be trusted? Can they be governed with? Well, first, just to recognize, the leader of this group was originally part of al-Qaeda

and Iraq. Then he was part of ISIS. Then he broke with both of those two groups. And today he speaks about an inclusive tolerance Syria that will respect the rights of minority communities, including Christians and Druze and Alawites, people who are not from the dominant Muslim faith that he comes from. But as President Biden said, we need to see words translated into deeds.

There is an enormous opportunity now that the butcher Assad has gone for Syria to build a better future. But as you said, there are huge risks. And the single biggest risk I see is that ISIS comes back because ISIS wants to take advantage of any vacuum or instability in Syria following a civil war. And so the U.S. has to be laser focused on suppressing the threat of ISIS. President Biden ordered the bombing of ISIS personnel and ISIS facilities within hours of Assad falling.

And we're gonna stay on top of that, but I will not sugar coat it. This is a real threat, the threat of jihadism and terrorism returning in Syria because of what's happened. And it's incumbent on us and everyone in the region to push back hard on that. Jake, to Joe's point on Gaza, we're into over 400 days that they've been holding hostages. Gaza has been destroyed, the entire strip destroyed. What is the level of frustration like within the Biden administration over the conduct of the Israeli military operation, the way they waged war in Gaza and are still waging war, the conduct of the Israeli government in terms of the hostages cooperating to get

a hostage release? What's the level of frustration with the current administration in Israel? And has it been damaged beyond repair? So I think we have to step back and look at the context. Hamas launched this massacre on October 7th. Then it retreated not to military facilities or to the open field of battle to meet the Israeli Defense Forces. It retreated to schools and mosques and to hundreds of miles of tunnels under densely populated civilian areas. So Israel has had an added burden in fighting this war of dealing with an enemy that does not give a

wit about civilians in Gaza, civilian Palestinians. But that doesn't lessen Israel's responsibility to minimize civilian harm and to maximize the flow of humanitarian assistance. And we have said over the course of the past 14 months that Israel should do more in both of those areas. I believe it's an American commandment and a Jewish commandment that every innocent life has value. And we have stressed that to the Israeli government over time. And when we have had our concerns, we've expressed those privately and occasionally

we have laid them out publicly. Now, on my most recent trip, I felt like with respect to the hostage deal especially, the Israeli government is prepared to do this deal. I believe that. I think there have been points in time where they have focused on details and kind of pressed the point of various aspects of the deal. Now they want to see it done. And the real question is, is Hamas prepared to step up and do it?

Before we let you go, Jake, let's talk about Ukraine. In a month and two days, the Trump administration will take over for you all. There has been skepticism, to put it mildly in some corners of the MAGA world, about America's support from Ukraine. Should we be spending all this money to support Ukraine? There's been some sympathy expressed in some quarters for Vladimir Putin. What is your level of concern as you sit here this morning about what happens to Ukraine on January 21st? Well, listening to some of the rhetoric that has come from the other side with respect to Ukraine does leave me concerned that the United States or anyone else

would try to impose a solution on the people of Ukraine, and I think that would be wrong. But I hold on to the hope that the incoming president cares about making good deals, not bad deals, and that he and his team will recognize that to have a just peace in Ukraine, a fair negotiation, you need leverage. And to have leverage means you need to keep supporting Ukraine. You can't pull the rug out from under them. Will they do that? I don't know.

But I hope that that logic as part of the concept of making a good diplomatic deal to end this war does take hold in the Trump administration. That is certainly what we are communicating. And I will say we have had good coordination with the incoming team for a smooth transition, especially in light of what's happening in both Ukraine and in the Middle East. It's important that no one in the world see significant daylight between the two administrations, especially our enemies that they would try to take advantage of. And my successor, Congressman Mike Walz, has made the same point.

David Ignatius. Jake, one more question from me about today's events in Moscow and the killing of this very senior Russian general, General Karylov. The SBU, the Ukrainian intelligence service, has plain credit for this assassination operation done with a bomb on a scooter in the middle of Moscow. Do you think operations like that are appropriate? What's the United States view? David, I learned about it the same way you did from the public.

I noted, as you did earlier in the program, that it was unusual that actually the Ukrainians came out quite explicitly and took credit for it. And I can be straight with you, the United States does not support or enable operations like this. We do support and enable Ukraine to defend itself and to take the fight to Russian forces on the battlefield, but not operations like this. So you would discourage future operations

like this in Moscow by the Ukrainians? From the United States' perspective, assassination operations far from the battlefield in a capital city, that's not something that's part of American military doctrine. What we wanna do is see Ukraine have the tools that it needs, not just to hold its territory, but to take the fight to the Russians who are attacking them

and also Russian proxies who are part of the fight now. So we're gonna continue to do that, to flow arms to them in massive quantities. And in fact, President Biden has ordered a surge in the closing weeks of his administration, which I am working with Secretary Austin at the Pentagon, so that the Ukrainians have in their hands a stockpile of munitions to be able to continue this fight and that Putin and Russia should make no mistake, Ukraine is going to be there on the battlefield to hold the line against

their onslaught. What is the best read that you and the administration have on Russia's future plans in Syria? Do you expect them to evacuate completely? Well, you know, it's interesting, Joe. If you just take a step back and you look at what's happened to both Russia and Iran, they have gotten a huge black eye out of Syria. They were supposed to back their guy, Assad, keep him in power, and now Russia and Iran are both on the run.

Why? It's because they've both been weakened and distracted by events elsewhere. Iran weakened by the military campaign that Israel waged against Hezbollah and directly against Iran with the backing of the United States. Russia weakened and distracted by the fact that the Ukrainians are putting up a very tough fight against them. So now they've lost their main proxy in the Middle East and they may lose their military bases.

They're already being moved out of the airfield and the question of whether they sustain a naval presence in the Eastern Mediterranean is in doubt. So as things stand today, as we hand off to the next administration, our friends, our allies are in a stronger position and our enemies are weaker. And this is not a bad thing, though it does bring risks as we discussed before. Let me touch on the next administration,

especially the nominees that are within your sphere of national security. Can you talk about the dangers or the impact of someone in positions like DOD or DNI and others where either the qualifications are lacking or there's even potentially outside influence? So I have been very careful not to comment on the nominations of the incoming administration. I know and so you put it comment on the nominations of the incoming administration. I was careful with my question. I know. And so you put it more in the abstract.

I've disappointed a lot of people by being very boring on this subject. Look, all I can say is how President Biden approached these kinds of appointments. People like Lloyd Austin, who a long career and deep expertise in military affairs. People like Avril Haines, our director of national intelligence, a person of impeccable integrity, quality, and capability. That's what we did. I'll let other people speak to the nominees

being put forward by the Trump administration. My job is to make sure that I'm managing an effective transition and a smooth passing of the baton. And for that reason, I think wading into commentary on this issue probably doesn't help me be able to do that. White House National Security Advisor Jake Sullivan, thank you very much. We really appreciate your coming in. Thank you so much, Jake.

Tomorrow on Morning Joe, we'll speak with Secretary of State Anthony Blinken. Jake, good to have you. The Washington Post, David Ignatius, thank you as well. And coming up, we'll take a closer look at Donald Trump's support along the southern border and how it might play into the president-elect's immigration policy. NBC's Morgan Radford joins us with her new reporting on that. Also ahead, we'll tell you what police in Wisconsin are now saying about a potential motive in the shooting at a private school

in Madison this week. Plus, the man arrested in connection with the killing of UnitedHealthcare's CEO has officially been indicted by a grand jury in New York. We'll go over the charges. Morning Joe is coming right back. In fact, police say a combination of factors may be behind the possible motive in a deadly shooting at a Wisconsin Christian school. The Associated Press says the Madison police chief did not offer any details about a motive or why a teenage girl opened fire on her school on Monday, but said bullying at abundant life Christian

school would be investigated. Police are investigating writings that may have been left by the shooter and could shed some light on her actions that left two dead and six people injured, including two students who remain in critical condition. The shooter died of a self-inflicted gunshot. Hundreds gathered last night to mourn those lost in the incident holding a candlelight vigil and a prayer service next door to the school.

And we're still waiting to learn how she got that gun in the first place. Meanwhile, the man arrested for the killing of UnitedHealthcare CEO Brian Thompson has been formally indicted by a grand jury in New York. Luigi Mangione now facing charges of first degree murder and murder in the second degree as a crime of terrorism. Convicted, he could face a sentence of life in prison without parole.

This was a frightening, well-planned, targeted murder that was intended to cause shock and attention and intimidation. It occurred in one of the most bustling parts of our city. Threatening the safety of local residents and tourists alike commuters and business people just starting out on their day. The 26 year-old alleged shooter is currently being held in a state prison in Pennsylvania where he was arrested last week. There, he faces charges for carrying a firearm without a license and providing false identification

to law enforcement when he was caught in that McDonald's. He has a court hearing scheduled tomorrow morning. We don't know yet when he'll be taken to New York, but a source tells NBC News Mangione plans to waive extradition. Meanwhile, NBC News has learned the mother of the suspect spoke to police a day before his arrest, saying her son could be the person of interest that they were searching for. The mother also had reported Mangione missing, filing a report with the San Francisco Police Department back in November, almost a month before the deadly shooting.

Just over one month until Inauguration Day, President-elect Donald Trump promising mass deportations on day one, while at the same time suggesting he would work with Democrats on a plan for dreamers, those who arrived here illegally as children. So what does it all mean for undocumented family members? Let's bring in NBC News correspondent and co-anchor of NBC News Daily, Morgan Radford, who is just back from a trip to the Texas-Mexico border, where 14 out of 18 counties voted for Trump in the 2024 election, with some flipping Republican for the first time in decades.

So, Morgan, what was the mood like there? It's interesting. There's a lot of conflicting messages, but there's also a lot of open questions. The border is where we see a lot of these policies come to life and come to life very quickly. In fact, many there are sort of holding their collective breath saying they were scared before, but they are terrified now. But still a surprising number of migrants support the president-elect, even some of

those who are currently in deportation proceedings take a look. I will launch the largest deportation program in American history. For millions of Americans immigration rhetoric you better start packing now. It soon become a reality including right here in Texas home to an estimated 1.6 million unauthorized immigrants and 18

border counties with majority or near majority Latino populations, 14 of which voted for president elect Donald Trump this year. Here in Hidalgo County on the Texas Mexico border voters had not elected a Republican for president since 1972 that is until now. You voted for Trump. If in fact there are mass deportations that were you I think

even though he made that particular political statement it was just a corner. You know those boats for him to get elected but that's what Trump's actually that to do? It's not going to happen. Good morning, Lawson. Alex Martinez. Local immigration attorneys say their phones are ringing off the hook. Believe it or not, a lot of people that are here and documented support President Trump. And we have not, we have never seen that in that way.

Individuals that are even in deportation proceedings say that they, that they agree with them in certain ways. And it's pretty shocking. Your clients have told you this? Yes, absolutely. Yes, absolutely. Why? Um, they believe that he is good for business.

So to them, it seems easy that if they're removed somehow, that they simply come back in. But at the end of the day, what matters is that money's coming into the family and into their businesses. But others here say day one of Trump means day one of terror. People have a lot of anxiety and fear of what's to come. Joaquin Garcia works with Lupe, a South Texas nonprofit that also provides legal services to undocumented people. One of several organizations across the country now holding information sessions in case of deportation. Power of attorney for your kids. Have money saved because if you're facing deportation your bills are still gonna be have to get paid.

Ver certificate of your country of origin. Evidence that you've been paying taxes and an evidence that you'll be living taxes, and evidence that you've been living here in the U.S. So the idea is that someone in the house knows exactly where these forms are, knows where to get them, where to find them on day one. On day one. A scenario that's very real for people like Maria, who says she's lived here in the United States for 18 years.

Now they're more than scared. They are terrorized. Maria declined to share her last name or show her face out of fear of deportation. She pays $40 a month for access to legal and other services through Lupe. What would be the worst case scenario for you and your family in these moments? I think it would be torture because I had to leave my son behind. It would be torture for you because you already had to leave your son behind. And it would be like repeating the cycle.

Why don't you want me to... The reason for her tears. She tells us although her two daughters were born here, she and her husband are both undocumented, making them exactly the kind of mixed status family. The president elect has been talking about. I don't want to be breaking up families, so the only way you don't break up the family is you keep them together and you have to send them all back. Was there this much fear before President Trump? He doesn't love us just because of our color. He looks at us like dirty people.

You're saying, you know, before in the previous administration things were okay, but now, especially, we're talking about President Trump, we're talking about President Trump, you were saying he doesn't like us, that he thinks we're, you know, dirty, he is discriminating against us because of our color of our skin and that he doesn't want us here. What do you want for yourself and for your daughter's life? You just want to be together. You're not even looking for luxury. You know how to live off of a little.

You just want to be together. They just want to be together. I think it's really worth noting here that many people in these border counties, they have family who remember the last mass deportation campaign in the mid 1950s under Eisenhower. Hundreds of thousands, some estimate over a million people with Mexican last names, Mexican descent, were rounded up and sent to Mexico, even though many of them had come here legally through agreements between to Mexico, even though many of them had come here legally through agreements between the two countries, and many of whom were actual

American citizens. So a lot of people also, though, have strong memories more recently of the Obama administration, which saw more deportations than any other president in U.S. history. Right. That's for sure. So have we ever seen this type of choice before, economy versus legality? That is a great question.

And in short, no, right? The immigration attorney said, this was different before. Now people are saying, look, you know, as long as money is flowing into my pocket, even if I get deported, I can sneak back across the border illegally. And they said that the messaging around fear is working,

but the messaging around the economy, specifically from the messaging around fear is working, but the messaging around the economy, specifically from the Trump team, is even stronger. I've got to say it's remarkable as you look at the maps of, you know, of all the things I saw on election night and after election night, the border counties, I mean, which used to all be blue. Not anymore not anymore. I mean they have been shifting shifting more red but this this time it's remarkable what did you say 14 out of 18 counties voted for Donald Trump and Joe what's

fascinating is that it really surprised me the depths of that stronghold for example it was wild I heard people say Stephen Miller's name, right? We're just like casually interviewing people on the street and the fact that Stephen Miller's name came up because they'd seen it on social media where he promised to turbocharge the denaturalization process. Some of the attorneys said that some people are choosing

not to even go through the naturalization process because they're afraid that it will make them a target. So the fear is really something new and different. But this chokehold over this question of economy and what freedom comes with the economy, they think is even stronger than the freedom that comes with legality. Eddie. So Morgan, what happens when we move from the abstract question of, you know, the border, immigration, illegality, undocumented,

to the actual human toll. I mean, you had this amazing moment with that interaction with a young woman who was undocumented and her family. What happens when we move from the abstraction to the actual effect of this policy on phone? We see this all the time in immigrant communities. We see this with Mexican Americans on the phone. We see this all the time in immigrant communities. We see this with Mexican Americans on the border.

We see this with Cuban Americans in Miami, this sort of distance between the policy and the lived effect. I think what will really measure that is if we actually see prices go down to pre-pandemic levels. When people see the income and what happens and how they take care of putting food on their table,

then I think we will see if that trade-off was really worth it in a day-to-day tactical, practical sense. You know, guys, Morgan's excellent piece lays out perfectly what the Trump administration's gonna bump up against, which I think a lot of Americans who voted for Donald Trump said, if you're gonna go in and get criminals,

somebody who committed murder, somebody who shouldn't be in this country, go ahead, have at it. And that's what they're saying they're going to do. But when the reality of going and knocking on Maria's door and pulling her and her children out of this country and pushing them out, that gets a little more difficult. It's easy to stand up at a rally in the summer of 2024. It's more difficult when you actually have to do it. But Morgan, isn't it interesting if you listen to what Donald Trump has said, if you listen to what Homan said,

if you listen to what other people around the Trump team have said, they're saying we're not going to send military vehicles and we're not gonna tear out people that are living here peacefully. It does seem, phase one at least, they are talking about the hardened criminals and in fact push back on doing more than that. Many people say that is a red herring. Saying that we are coming against criminals is a red herring because one, we've seen it

before. They actually use military tactics to take people with Mexican last names and drop them off in Mexicali in 1955. So one, we've seen them use the military to do before. Number two, this notion of deporting criminals, any immigration attorney will tell you, the actual statistics of someone who is a criminal,

who has gone through naturalization proceedings is minuscule. I mean, it's so, and it takes so many resources to even find those criminals. We don't even have the resources in place to find those people, the 0.001%, as one immigration attorney put it, of criminals who have gone through that process. So it's a bit of a red herring to say that we're only deporting the criminals, but that messaging has worked because there were lots of migrants who told me on this trip to the border, hey they're not coming for me, they're not coming for my brother, but they're coming for the criminals. Mi amor. I don't know if the criminals, you know,

are going to be so easily found. Well and you bring up a bigger point and a more important point, Jonathan, one that we've talked about before, how expensive it is to do this. And the idea that you're going to sweep up, people are saying, oh, we want you to get 10 or 11 million illegal immigrants out. No, it's, we saw Barack Obama deported more over eight years than Donald Trump did over four,

because it's, in the immortal words of George W. Bush it's hard. It's hard. I mean and it costs a ton of money. Yeah the numbers are talking about it it's almost unfathomable the idea of the resources the manpower that they would need to do this the political will and capital especially when there are already states and some local jurisdictions saying they won't cooperate. NBC's Morgan Radford, thank you. That was extremely compelling. And we look forward to your ongoing coverage on this.