Morning Joe - Morning Joe 12/19/22

Episode Date: December 19, 2022

Jan. 6 committee finalizes criminal referral plan for Trump

Semi-retired maniac Donald Trump has launched a collection of digital NFT trading cards depicting him in various costumes, including cowboy, superhero, and most unbelievable of all, guy who didn't dodge the draft. I'm honestly just relieved that he's wearing an American military uniform. Whoa, good morning and welcome to Morning Joe. It is Monday, December 19th. There is a lot happening today, starting on Capitol Hill as the January 6th committee prepares to refer Donald Trump to the Justice Department for criminal prosecution. We'll have the exclusive new reporting on the exact charges the committee

wants pursued. It is just part of what is shaping up to be a week of challenges for the ex-president as the New York Times reports. After more than five years of dramatic headlines about controversy, scandals and potential crimes surrounding former President Donald J. Trump, the coming week will be among the most consequential. We'll break down how the coming days will bring forward an avalanche of issues for him to face. Plus, developing now, is Elon Musk on the verge of stepping down as CEO of Twitter? He launched an online poll asking that very question and pledged to abide by the results. With us, we have the host of Way Too Early, White House Bureau Chief at Politico, Jonathan Lemire, and the president of the Council on Foreign Relations, Richard Haass, and U.S.

special correspondent for BBC News, Katty Kaye, is with us this morning as well. What a week ahead for the former president. I know there are other things going on as well. Yeah, no, it's an incredible week. But speaking of incredible, Katty Kay got her wish yesterday. Yes, she did. The French, she called some of the surrender monkeys. I'm deeply offended by that. The French lost yesterday. If you can, I don't know if you can even say lost though, Caddy, that was without a doubt. And I think everybody agrees the most extraordinary World Cup final anybody's ever seen. I must say it's probably the best football game I've ever seen played yesterday. Messi and Mbappe, just two.

There are no words. Just two extraordinary talents. They are the best of the best. I got so nervous at points during the game, I had to keep going into the kitchen to make a cup of tea because I could not handle the stress and the pressure and the I mean seriously it was it I think you're right I mean I was watching with a bunch of my um kids friends all soccer nuts and they who've watched every single world cup game many of them have been to them and they said it was the most amazingly exciting game of

football that they had ever seen and there was great things from Messi and Mbappe. Mbappe, frankly, I mean, in the game against England, Mbappe didn't really show up very much. But in this game, what was extraordinary about the French is that they don't go for possession the whole game. Argentinians dominated that first half, had possession the whole time, and then they just score when they need to. So they don't need to go for possession because when they need to score, they do.

But they were playing catch-up. I think all the way through the game, it was Argentina was slightly ahead and it was the French playing catch-up. And I think the result was fair. I don't know what you think, Joe. I do think the result reflected who the best team was on that day. Well, you know, Argentina dominated the match for the first 80 minutes, just like they did against the Dutch last week.

And then just extraordinary comeback by the Dutch last week, extraordinary comeback by the French yesterday in Jonathan Lear. Once again, you had a goalkeeper who just playing out of his mind for Argentina, who seemed to guess every penalty kick. I will say what's so extraordinary about Mbappe is he guessed right on Mbappe twice. It didn't matter. Look at that. It didn't matter that he actually got his hands on the ball twice.

Jonathan Lamere, next level stuff from Mbappe. And I must say, and I was cheering for the French because it was Zidane who converted me to English football in 2006. But Jonathan Lemire, my God, you couldn't help but love this Argentina team, the way they move the ball up and down the field. And I actually thought they were going to come back about five times in extra time. Argentina had this game won twice, and France came back both times. That 2-0 deficit late in the regulation, and then, of course, after Messi scores in the extra time, it looks like they're going to win 3-2, and Mbappe would not be denied.

What's so extraordinary here is that these are the two best players in the world, and on the biggest stage, they both were at their best. They both were spectacular. A hat-trick from Mbappe, two goals from Messi, both convert their PKs afterwards. They just played so well, and this game was so tense and so extraordinary. My house was rooting for Argentina. My two boys are both soccer players. They're both diminutive soccer players, shall we say.

So they identify with Messi there. And, you know, I will say, but the game was so tense, we kept getting up and walking around. I enjoyed the cutaways to French President Macron during the game. He started the game in full suit. By the end, his jacket's gone. His sleeves are rolled up. His tie's askew.

He, Macron, like the rest of us, was just living through this game. And I will say, Mbappe is wonderful. But this is a wonderful, perfect career capstone for Messi, finally getting the World Cup title that had eluded him. It really unbelievable. And what a goal there. And unfortunately, it was Koelmani, I believe, who had shot an open goal near the end, missed the opportunity to put it away and actually, by the way, a perfect penalty kick there.

But earlier, right before the penalty kicks, he had a chance to put it away and unfortunately chose to kick it. Unfortunately, if you're for the French, chose to kick it straight at the goalkeeper. But there is no doubt. I mean, this is how you cap off the career of one of the greatest players of all time. Hollywood really couldn't have provided a better script, couldn't have provided a better ending.

And now we leave the messy era with messy ending in a way that Rinaldo could only dream of and will probably bitterly dream of for decades to come. And now we are officially the age of Mbappe. And it's time for us now, Richard Haass, to look at this and try to figure out how we can patch back together Britain and France, because here we have Katie Kay, despite the fact that the Falklands happened in her lifetime 40 years ago. She's still doing everything she can to cheer against Mbappe's French team. The resentment is deeper than Ronaldo's resentment right now towards Messi.

Yes, I was there in the Malvinas in the winning team's capital yesterday. Those scenes in Buenos Aires yesterday were unbelievable. I used to think the goalie, the Argentine goalie, that kick save towards the end. The last half of the overtime period was probably the most physical fluid soccer I'd ever seen. Both teams came close to goals. It was just as good as it's gotten. The second Argentine goal might have been the purest, most beautiful football goal that any of us had ever seen. If you were going to teach the game, you would use that. It was the spacing, the passing, everything. It was just fantastic. One extraordinary pass after another.

Really, five perfect passes. I think you're right, Richard. The buildup. We're going to take you off of golf and now put you on Premier League football as the analyst because you bring up a great point. Those four or five passes, of course, with Messi in the middle of it all, the most beautiful, It was just the most beautiful setup that that that I've seen. So anyway, so we'll we'll be talking about this more throughout the day. But we have a lot of news about a former president possibly

being brought up on criminal charges. Well, the referrals, definitely the referrals, definitely. And so many other things happening. And by the way, I mean, you read the Washington Post article on what's happening right now. We have that. Yeah. It is really. It is. And the final scene, the final the final scene in that Washington Post article where the gates sort of swinging open. It's like the final scenes from Gatsby after after the mansion's been abandoned.

And who? Well, let's just start with what is shaping up to be a major day on Capitol Hill regarding the January 6th insurrection and former President Donald Trump. In just hours, the January 6th House Select Committee is set to meet publicly, likely for the last time, after gathering yesterday to finalize its plans to issue at least three criminal referrals for former President Trump. NBC News has learned this exclusively. Now, the referrals are expected to ask the Justice Department to pursue at least three criminal charges against the former president, all related to the Capitol riot, obstructing an official proceeding, conspiracy to defraud the government and inciting or assisting an insurrection. Chuck, it's important to know while this is huge,

the criminal referrals carry no official legal weight. It's now up to the Justice Department to decide whether or not to charge Trump or anyone else the committee might refer. Committee member and Democratic Congressman Adam Schiff of California had this to say yesterday. I think that the evidence is there that Donald Trump committed criminal offenses in connection with his efforts to overturn the election and viewing it as a former prosecutor. I think there's sufficient evidence to to charge the president. All right. So when asked for a comment, a Trump campaign spokesperson shared a statement from Friday attacking the committee, adding the campaign will have more to say after the referrals are made public today.

NBC News has also learned the committee discussed John Eastman, a conservative lawyer on Trump's legal team, who authored a memo outlining a theory of how Trump could hold on to power on January 6th, 2021. Well, and he actually pushed it. Of course, he pushed it and was right in the middle of the planning and the plotting and the scheming for the insurrection. But he's been declining comment through his attorney. He has nothing to say at this point.

In addition, NBC News... He had a lot to say before January the 6th and on January the 6th about an insurrection. We're going to stay right behind it, though. We're going to watch what happens today. In addition, NBC News has learned the committee plans to refer several Republican members of Congress to the House Ethics Committee for their defiance of congressional subpoenas. Committee member and Democratic Congressman Jamie Raskin of Maryland said in part during the meeting overheard by NBC News,

the committee is now referring four members of Congress for appropriate sanction with the House Ethics Committee for failure to comply. All of this as the January 6th committee is winding down its work before the end of the year, rushing to file its findings into a lengthy eight chapter report that is set to be released to the public this Wednesday. Let's bring in right now political investigations reporter for The Guardian, Hugo Lowell. Hugo, what else can you tell us about this? Look, I mean, the committee has been discussing criminal referrals for several weeks now. And, you know, when we reported on Friday that obstruction of an official proceeding and conspiracy to defraud were among the mix of statutes being considered,

I don't think that came as a surprise to anyone. But, you know, we are now learning, and we have since heard over the weekend the committee met to discuss additional possible statutes they might want to refer, you know. And then this is stuff that we've also reported previously, things like, you know, seditious conspiracy, things like inciting an insurrection. But, you know, this tracks the entirety of this investigation. You know, these are the statutes that the committee is referring because it has judicial backing. You know, back in March, we had that ruling from Judge Carter in California

in the Eastman case, where he said Trump and Eastman likely engaged in a conspiracy to defraud the government, and that this was a coup in search of a legal theory. And this has really been the baseline for the committee. They're building on these rulings from federal judges. And then also with the incitement of insurrection, they're building on a ruling from Judge Mehta here in D.C. who basically said well there may be scope here to read into Trump engaging into a conspiracy to incite the insurrection and so you know these are all really strong charges they all comes with strong backing and I think this this makes sense as a committee.

Jonathan Lemire you obviously wrote the book on January the 6th and the big lie your beat here what have you? What can you tell us? Well, first, I think it's useful to take a step back and just to not get caught in the weeds of the charges. Recognize what a precedent this is set. This is remarkable. There could be criminal referrals against a former president of the United States. We have never been here before. And certainly we know this is just largely symbolic, but it's going to carry a lot of weight in the public consciousness. And this is something that the Trump world has been concerned about for a long time, that they, of course, blast this as a

witch hunt. They blast it as bias. They are upset with Kevin McCarthy all these months later for not putting better, you know, not cooperating with this and putting Republicans on the panel itself. This is going to be a significant move. And Hugo, I wanted to ask you about the roadmap this could provide for the Department of Justice. We know that DOJ has got its own parallel investigation that has really ramped up in recent months. But once we hear from the committee today and we get that report on Wednesday, just the preface alone to that report, apparently totaling well over 100 pages. So we're going to see a lot of detail here. Should this provide guidance for the DOJ, inform their thinking going forward? I think it will to an extent. You know, DOJ obviously has its own evidence that is accrued in the intervening 16 months that the

committee has been doing its investigation. But I think when we look at the referrals, it will give us a very good idea of where prosecutors might go, where Jack Smith, the special counsel, might go with potential January 6th-rated charges. Look, a lot of these committee counsels are former prosecutors. They're looking at this in the way that Maine justice would look at these charges. And when you see these referrals, the idea is that each of these are going to be buttressed by evidence and interpretations of the statutes. And that was clear back in March with the Judge Carter rulings, and it was clear with Judge Mehta as well.

And so I think in terms of a roadmap, what you're going to see is effectively how the Justice Department will be thinking, and that will give us an idea as to how the Justice Department might move if they decide to prosecute Trump. In addition to what the January 6th House Select Committee is recommending today, tomorrow the House Ways and Means Committee is going to meet to discuss Trump's tax returns that it finally obtained after four years. That committee could release six years of his tax returns publicly. Then on Wednesday, January 6th, the committee is expected to release that report. As the New York Times sums up, taken together this week will point a spotlight on both

Mr. Trump's refusal to cede power and the issue that he has most acutely guarded for decades, the actual size of his personal wealth and his sources of income. So over the past several months, Richard, I've been talking about gravity returning to not only Washington, D.C., but American public life. It had seemed that actually the rules just didn't apply to certain people. But you look at what's happening in the markets and billionaires losing tens of billions of dollars who have behaved badly. And I speak not just of Elon Musk, but also Mark Zuckerberg, who's lost one hundred billion dollars. You look at info wars, the lies that are spread about Sandy Hook parents, the cost of that being bankruptcy. You look at one

federal court after another ruling against Donald Trump's worst instincts. And now you look at this. It seems that everything is crashing down around Donald Trump at the same time. After six years of all of us saying, well, the rules just don't seem to apply to all people equally. Here we see, and we have seen over the past several months,

the gravity does seem to be returning to politics as well, where every single election denier lost. Yeah, in some ways, it's an interesting statement of about our democracy, that you still have decentralized institutions, particularly the courts and the legal system. You have the media doing what it's doing. Congress is doing what it's doing. And we I think it's actually been something of a good revival when you think about all this together, going back to the midterms,

Joe, going back even before that with the January 6th committee. We're not out of the woods yet. We'll see what happens. Even all this probably won't faze the 35 percent or so of Republicans who support Mr. Trump unconditionally. But all things being equal, there's a bit of there's a bit of resilience here, I guess is the word I'd use with American democracy. And I actually take take some comfort from that. We'll see how this plays out. But all in all, I actually think it's a pretty robust time for us. Well, and Katty Kay, of course, the famous saying, the wheels of justice grind slowly, but they grind. Very applicable here, again, where people kept waiting, waiting. When is he ever going to be brought to justice for all of the things he's doing?

The DOJ is taking its time. Merrick Garland is taking its time. The DA in Fulton County taking its time. Merrick Garland is taking its time. The D.A. in Fulton County taking her time. The attorney general in New York state taking her time. They are doing this step by step, building a case against him brick by brick. And when it hits, it hits all at once. Yeah. Nobody wants to bring a case against a former president that then doesn't lead to a conviction, right? I mean, everybody is very wary of that. They're incredibly conscious, particularly Merrick Garland, of big enough case to seem to justify charging a former president.

There would be there will be enormous political implications. The 37 percent of Republicans who still of the country who still sticks very much by President Trump are going to be incensed by these charges, as Richard was alluding to. And so they have to bring charges that amount to something that is serious enough, not just something small and that they might dismiss as trivial and a witch hunt, but that is serious enough to merit the kind of effort that has been put into this. But the other thing I would add to that list that Richard laid out of the courts and the media and the Congress doing their jobs, American voters have also done their job. And we saw that in the midterms, that arc has been restored by what American voters did,

looking at those election deniers and deciding that that was not the way they wanted this country to go. So we talked about Republicans perhaps kind of pulling away. Outgoing Republican Senator Pat Toomey had this to say about Donald Trump's influence on the Republican Party and his reelection campaign rollout. I think his influence was waning, not as quickly as I had hoped it would, but I think it was waning. But the election outcome from last month, I think, dramatically accelerates the waning. And frankly, his unbelievably terrible rollout of his reelection, his election campaign is also not helping him. And Jonathan O'Meara, we're going to be hearing more and more of that in the coming weeks,

I'm sure, because, yes, there still is 35, 36, 37 percent of Americans that will defend Donald Trump, possibly to the bitter end. But many of those are hoping he'll quietly go away so they can get behind. Well, I don't know. Ron DeSantis or maybe a Republican candidate that will help the Republicans stop losing elections every single year. Yeah, this is the weakest Don Trump has been since the morning of January 7th within the Republican Party. And we know that he's come back before. But this is a particularly tough moment. It is this launch of the campaign this month or so has been punctuated by a dinner with a white supremacist, a call to terminate the Constitution, his business being found guilty in the state of New York. And now we're going to see this week with the criminal referrals,

the tax returns, the increasing legal pressure. But most damning of all is that Trump is being held responsible. This is the first time we're really seeing this. He's being held responsible by other Republicans for their failures at the ballot box. And Joe, you frequently go through his losing streak since 2017, 2018, but he seems to have gotten away with most of those, among other Republicans. This time does feel different. And I will say, Joe,

open chatter among people in the Republican Party, including those pretty close to Trump himself, wondering if his heart's really into this campaign. Does he view it simply as an effort to try to get out of criminal trouble when that may not be successful anyway? But he's done nothing. There's been no events, no rallies, no speeches. We had great fun last week poking holes at and mocking his NFTs release, those trading cards, which were meant to be, he had billed as a major announcement. And Republicans are looking at each other going like, what is he doing here? Does his heart really in this? Is he going to find some excuse to get out

of the race at some point? That's what they're wondering. And frankly, Joe, many of them, that's what they're hoping for. Yeah, you know, the thing is, what's what's so fascinating, Mika, is if you read The Washington Post article from yesterday, we're going to be having Ashley Parker on at the top of the hour. He's isolated. He's alone down there, remains angry, disconnected. It seems to be another reality. He has created this reality around him, except all of his former advisors seem to be saying that he doesn't want to hear from anybody unless they're going to sit there and tell him yes all day.

And so so there are no guardrails left, but also there's nobody there to say, don't put those down. You look like a fool. And it's sort of kind of like a little la-la land that he's created for himself. And I say that, you know, not in a realistic way where he's created his own reality. Right. And nobody, nobody around him, you know, they fear actually telling him the truth or bringing him bad news. Right. So we'll read from the piece a little later on. It's quite colorful in terms of what has happened to his life, this sort of strange world that he's created at Mar-a-Lago amidst all these legal challenges, including, let's not forget, the documents case.

And, Jonathan Lemire, we were texting back and forth yesterday during, of course, the World Cup, but also texting back some of the quotes from this Washington Post column are this Washington Post article. A lot of great reporting there that you said matches up with everything that you're hearing. But again, a very sad scene down there that even one person said he's trying to create his own sort of imaginary Oval Office above above the function space at Mar-a-Lago. And somebody said, what was it that it looked like? Barbie, you know. Barbie's dream house. Barbie's dream house.

Yeah, that is very sad. Ay, ay, ay. Sad, sad indeed. And this does jive with a lot of what I've been hearing. It's a great piece, which I'm glad we're getting to later on as well. But there's a sense that he has created this alternate reality where all he cares about is being told that he won the 2020 election. He can't move past that and that he wants to be affirmed by aides, those he's still talking to and people very close to him who have been in contact with him post-presidency. Say the calls have started to fade away, that he has become more reclusive.

And certainly those who thought a few months ago they could be getting a job on a potential campaign, they say, well, everyone's gone silent. They don't know what's happening there. So Trump is isolated and alone. And Republicans who are eager to move beyond 2020, his refusal to do so might be the final straw for them at last. And there are a lot of people that are hoping they don't get the calls for the invitation for dinner because the scene has gotten so sad and so pathetic there. Hugo, can you tell us before you go, is there a particular investigation, a particular criminal procedure moving forward, investigation moving forward, grand jury, that Trump and his lawyers and people close to him are most concerned about? Is it the DOJ?

Is it Georgia? Is it anything happening in New York? Is it the documents? I think, you know, without a doubt, it's the documents case. I mean, this was kind of the breakdown described to me by the legal team. It's like 80 percent of the time is spent on the documents case. Fifteen percent of the time is spent on the documents case, 15% of the time is spent on the DOJ January 6th case, and 5% of that time is spent on Georgia. And I think it really reflects the peril that he knows he has with the documents case. You know, he was able to stymie this investigation for about three months because of the special master proceedings, right? He had to give back the classified documents

after the 11th Circuit ruled, but he managed to string out the injunction on the unclassified documents for a very long time, actually, until last week. And if you speak to national security lawyers, they say, look, the classified documents are important, but if you're going to prosecute this case, you have to also look at the unclassified documents because they were co-mingled with the classified documents. So now that the DOJ has basically custody of all of the documents that were seized from Mar-a-Lago, I expect the criminal investigation on the documents case to move forward very swiftly. And I think the Trump lawyers are as well. And this is what they're really concerned about. Of course, they were in federal court last week or the week before even to try and get out of a contempt of court ruling. They managed that,

but only just. And they're really going to have to figure out how they're going to get around this problem that no one on the legal team wants to attest under oath that they've returned all classified documents to the government. Political investigations reporter for The Guardian, Hugo Lowell, thank you very much. A few more stories making headlines this morning. President Joe Biden is expected to speak to the nation this week about what he sees as his major accomplishments since taking office. White House officials say the president is expected to emphasize unity and the bipartisan nature of key legislation he has signed. They said he will also discuss hope for more cooperation between Democrats and Republicans

in the next Congress. Some of those accomplishments highlighted by the White House include projects funded by the bipartisan infrastructure law and a provision in the Democrats Inflation Reduction Act that caps insulin at thirty five dollars a month for Medicare recipients starting in January. I better read this one, Mika. Yeah. Yeah. Thirty six people were hurt. Eleven seriously Airlines flight carrying 278 passengers landed around 11 a.m. and was met immediately by first responders. According to the airline's chief operating officer, an unstable patch of air caught the flight by surprise near the Hawaiian Islands. The National Weather Service in Honolulu said there was a weather advisory posted for potential thunderstorms at the time. But 11 people seriously injured. Katty K, I don't know about you, but when I'm when I'm flying a lot of times, you know, they tell you keep your seatbelt on at all times.

I'm like, yeah, whatever. Keep your seatbelt. You know what? Whenever I hear stories like this or people say, oh, well, we were just flying and it just dropped 10,000 feet. That's when I say, all right, maybe maybe I'll stay buckled up the whole flight. Yeah, I am a buckled up the whole flight type of person. I'm also I have to say at the moment I'm also a mask type of person on planes. But that's just I don't want to get sick. I agree.

But I agree. I mean, why get sick? Right. Why get flu just before the holidays? There's no point. But I'm definitely that seatbelt stays firmly on the whole way. I would say this on the mask, Scotty, you're so right. So I we went to London for the Queen's funeral. We came back, got off the plane. I had covid dealt with fatigue for a long time. Went on a long flight overseas. As soon as I got over that, came back with an upper respiratory infection. I just, I never get sick. I will tell you since, since I got back from September 19th from London, I have been sick. COVID, this massive upper respiratory infection that lasted for three or four weeks.

And I guess it's I guess resistance is down post-COVID. But I am so with you when I'm on flights now. Just mask up. I'm just going to I'm just all right. Nobody else has to. You guys can go around and like breathe in people's face and do whatever. I want a mask. We've become germaphobes. Well, I'm not a germaphobe.

I would just rather not be sick. I'd rather not. It's crazy. All right, still ahead on Morning Joe, we'll have the latest on the war in Ukraine and how the White House hopes to continue aid for the country as Republicans take control of the House in a matter of weeks. Meanwhile, a Republican governor stands up for science, criticizing Ron DeSantis, his new campaign against covid vaccines. And wait, wait, wait, wait. He was for he was totally covered.

He sat there before he was helping people get the vaccine. He was proud of it. He's beyond. Hey, Paul, we're here to give you a shot. And I'm so proud. We're in Miami. Boy, that is a horrible airport. And his airport sucks. Miami. Boy, that is a horrible airport. Thanks, Ron DeSantis. Thanks, Ron. And it was another chaotic week. Can we get stickers and just stick them all over Miami?

Yes. It was a chaotic weekend on Twitter. We're going to go through the controversial moves by Elon Musk that led him to asking users if he should continue as CEO. Is Twitter his playground? If a tree falls in the forest and I don't hear it, does it make a sound? Can everyone please tweet yes? Just tweet yes. The obsession with Twitter.

Oh, look at the commerce. You're watching Morning Joe. We'll be right back. One of my things. I had some dreams. They were clouds in my. Should I stay or should I go now? 36 past the hour. Look at Reagan National Airport. Can you believe how busy airports are? Oh, wow. Yeah. I mean, travel is no fun right now. Just take your time, pack your patience and get there early. All right. Let's take a look at the latest headlines on Twitter. Is the Elon era of Twitter over sooner than we thought? Twitter owner Elon Musk

has launched a poll on the site asking users if he should step down as head of the company. He has promised to abide by the results, and they didn't really turn out in his favor with more than 17 million votes. 57.5% of users say Elon should step down. The poll, which is now closed, comes amid fallout over a new policy Twitter attempted to introduce yesterday, the social media giant announcing and then reversing a plan to ban users from linking or promoting their pages on other social media sites. Musk responded to the debacle, writing, quote, going forward,

there will be a vote for major policy changes. My apologies won't happen again. And seemingly in response to his poll before the final results, he tweeted, as the saying goes, be careful what you wish as you might get it. Well, Elon may be going, but he's given us memories here at Twitter that could last a lunchtime, as they say on the Ruttles. But but I've got to say, Richard Haas, some of the people who are probably happiest about the results of this poll, if in fact Elon abides by it, are the shareholders and those who have the largest stake in Tesla that are cheering for him and SpaceX, who actually want Elon Musk to succeed in his business ventures. It has been disastrous. All of this has been disastrous for Tesla stock. So it'll be curious to see if he does leave. If he does leave, though, it's actually in his best interest. Yeah, but who's going to buy it? I mean, he was trying to raise extra money for Twitter at the

valuation he bought it at. I wouldn't think the takers were forming a double line at that price. So it would be a significant discount if he were to get rid of it. But yeah, I mean, there's a fundamental difference, Joe, between running the companies you founded, essentially, where you understand you've made the DNA, and then acquiring this large social media company. This has been a mismatch from day one. So if he were to get out of Twitter in the long run, I think it would be good. He's not, shall we say, made for it. This latest thing is, whatever deliberativeative decision making is, it is not characteristic of Elon Musk's Twitter. It's not a it's not a match that it's sustainable. And I would think I think his investors would rather have him go back to spaceships and to launch in the rest than to Tesla. Of course, that's kind of what that's how he made his

reputation, not on Twitter. Yeah. And, you know, the thing is, that's what he knows. It reminds me again, and I'm sure you remember this story. You And, you know, the thing is, that's what he knows. It reminds me again, and I'm sure you remember the story. You know, Henry Ford, again, created the modern age, created the assembly line, created the America that we know. And of course, he was brilliant at it. But the second he stepped out of that, he went up, I think, to Capitol Hill to testify. People were shocked at how limited his knowledge was. He knew how to do one thing exceedingly well and created the modern age by doing that. But when he got out of his lane, things didn't go quite so well.

And Jonathan O'Meara, it has been such a chaotic few months with Elon Musk. I'm sure it all looked much easier from a distance to come in and clean this place up. But you and I and other millions and millions of people that have been on Twitter for a decade could tell him it's a sewer out there. It's a sewer out there and It's a sewer out there and it has gotten worse since he took over. There's been studies about how the hate speech and the racist rhetoric has only increased in the Musk era. And people don't really know what he wants out of this. Was this just an effort to own the libs or to be a troll, to be the center of attention? He certainly is Trump-esque in his need to be talked about.

He grossly overpaid for Twitter in the first place. We all reflect that drama will here or won't he go through the sale in the first place? And it does seem like he's had a couple of attempts to get out of it since. And this move here, his poll that suggests he's going to leave comes on the heels of not just that policy that prohibited people from linking to other social media sites, which caused an uproar, but also after he banned a number of journalists, there were a number of journalists that he banned. he claimed, because they were trying to, quote, dox him, because they had linked to publicly available information about his aircraft. And then others were banned for no real reason whatsoever, they could tell. Now, those bans have been reversed,

mostly. This policy about linking has been reversed, mostly. We'll see if he abides by this poll. He certainly doesn't have to, but I guess it should be noted he's put up other polls before, including the one about bringing Donald Trump back to the platform. He has abided by those results. So we shall have to see what comes as the day goes on. Yeah. And, you know, it's just again, it's every day that he's doing Twitter. I'm saying just about anybody anybody, but every day you're running Twitter is a day you're making enemies. And if you've got something like Tesla and SpaceX, it's going to hurt that other business.

And Katty K, I've got a saying around here, you know, Meek and I, we can get into music. We can do music. We can write books. We can do whatever. But at the books. We can we can do whatever. But at the end of the day, you guard the flag, right? Guard the flag. What is the thing that pays the bill? What is the thing that's most important in your professional business? And Elon Musk has not been guarding the flag. In fact, he's allowed it to be savaged. He's lost 60 percent of his stock

this year. I think the rest of the S&P has lost about 15 to 18 percent this year. So it's been a savage year for Tesla. And he hasn't guarded the flag. Perhaps this is where he steps away and goes back and worries about first things first. Yeah. I mean, if he's having to subsidize Tesla because of losses on Twitter, that doesn't make any sense for him. Yeah. I mean, if he's having to subsidize Tesla because of losses on Twitter, that doesn't make any sense for him. But also beyond that, there's the brand and reputation, which you get Donnie on this, but you know, the brand damage that's being done when you've got, you know, liberals, Tesla owning liberals in California who were very proud to be owning Teslas for a while saying, actually, you know what, I don't want anything to do with this

company anymore. And I'm going to sell my Tesla and I'm going to buy, I don't know, an electric BMW or whatever it is they're going to replace it with. Then he's got a problem. And we all know what it's like. You can spend years building up a reputation. And for companies in particular, you can spend years building up a brand, but you can lose that brand and that reputation very quickly. And that seems to be what's happening to Elon Musk at the moment. And he's going to have to rebuild that trust in Tesla, whatever he does as a result of this poll. I mean, the question will be if he steps aside, then what happens to Twitter? He'll still own the company. So presumably he will still control whoever it is that's running it operationally day to day. Yeah, Richard, we're going to have John

De La Volpe on a little bit later on. John brought up a very fascinating point. You know, you have all of these people that are striking out against woke politics or whatever Elon was striking out against, owning the libs. It's all about owning the libs. John De La Volpe brought up a good point that in the states, I believe you said states that were won by Joe Biden, they control 70 percent of America's GDP. So you hear about, you know, Colin, Colin Kaepernick, he supposedly creates a backlash. You've got those protesting with kneeling for a while. People saying we're never going to watch the NFL again. We're never going to subsidize MLB again. We're never going to do this again or that again.

All to own the libs. At the end of the day, the vast majority of wealth are in blue states, regardless of who's winning elections. And those 70 percent are the ones that buy the overwhelming majority of Tesla's. So if people on the right decide, oh, well, you know, we're going to shut down Disney World. We're going to shut down this. We're going to. No, you're not. There's a reason why corporations are not do gooders. I'm sorry. It's just when you see BP going out saying how much they love nature, whatever. They're not do-gooders. They're worried about their bottom line, right? So if Coca-Cola or somebody else does something that upsets the

far right, you can try to own the libs. They're not doing it because they want to be loved by the libs. They want to make money. And this is what Elon Musk, I can't believe it. He never understood. Look at the data. Your Teslas are bought by the libs you're trying to own. They don't want them anymore. As you were referring to before, you've got to secure your base. And that is the base of Tesla. And he's fast losing the base. And again, he's not focusing on what he's good at. Also, he doesn't just own Tesla. He's on it 24-7. He's the tweeter-in-chief. And he's got two other businesses to run. So, he can't run Tesla. He can't run SpaceX. And on Twitter, you really can't run Twitter if you're too busy tweeting or showing up at the World Cup. So it just doesn't it just

doesn't make sense here. The only one who's probably really happy here, Joe, is someone who's on your show a lot, Walter Isaacson, because, you know, writing this book about him is getting more interesting by the hour. It really is going to be a fascinating book. And by the way, Walter, I've shown extraordinary discipline and not called you every day and asked what's going on? Because I know everybody's calling you asking

what's going on. Speaking of what's going on. But again, though, I mean, the important thing is, again, he needs to guard the flag. And he's not. Nope. It looks, though, I bet you this is all a setup to start moving towards guarding the flag. We'll see. Coming up, Argentina's World Cup victory hit home for one of the most recognizable voices in soccer.

Argentine-American announcer Andres Cantor will join us to break down yesterday's thrilling final. Morning Joe will be right back. va Montiel Montiel va Argentina campeón Argentina campeón del mundo Argentina campeón del mundo Argentina campeón del mundo an emotional moment for broadcasting legend and native argentine andres cantor at the end of yesterday's world cup final i think he was supposed to keep going, but just got too emotional. Too emotional. And also Telemundo soccer presenter Andres Cantor joins us now along with staff writer

from the New Republic, Alex Shepard. Andres, it's such a great honor to have you here with us. I will admit what I admitted to our audience earlier, since it was Zidane who converted me to the beautiful game, I was cheering for France yesterday. And yet, as I saw the buildup for the second goal, the most beautiful buildup I think I've ever seen in football, and as I saw Argentina just fly down the field in the final minutes, I just sat there and wonder, what an extraordinary team, what an extraordinary legend in Messi, what an extraordinary way to end this fabled career.

It was really a fairytale ending to Leo Messi's career in the World Cups. He became the player that played the most games, surpassing yesterday Lothar Matthäus with 26. He surpassed Italian Paolo Maldini in minutes played. He almost won the Golden Boot. He won the Golden Ball as the MVP of the tournament. You're seeing the play that you were referring to just now. That was one of the most beautiful plays. But Argentina doesn't win a trophy without suffering.

You know, it was the most dominant final I have ever seen for 75 minutes. And then in two minutes, everything went south for Argentina. And they had to suffer through the big games. And on a side note, from your previous segment, Elon Musk was here at the World Cup final. Yeah, there you go. So let me ask you what it meant to you personally watching that. You know, I always say that I would be a hypocrite if I don't say that I want Argentina to win the World Cup. I've been waiting 36 and a half years for this moment.

I tried to compose myself as much as I could. The man that you saw next to me, which I was hugging, is a World Cup champion from 1986, Claudio Borghi, an icon in Argentine football, Argentine soccer. So it was, you know, we came so close. Argentina came so close. And all the World Cups receiving this one, except Russia 2018. I just really couldn't hold back my emotions.

But yet, you know, it was very, very tough. It was a roller coaster. You know, if Argentina didn't convert that last picket, then France had a chance to tie and go up ahead. So I had to compose myself until the very last second. And until I saw the ball go, you know, in the back of the net when Montiel took that PK, I just broke up. Yeah. Alex Shepard, you know, Andres is so right. The first 80 minutes may have been the most boring World Cup I've ever seen.

Argentina just absolutely dominated every part of the game. The final 40 minutes, the most exciting by far. Taken all together, there's never been a World Cup final like this, has there? I don't think there's been a final like this, period, in any sport. I can't think of anything like the last 40 minutes of that game. It's completely manic. It seemed like anything could happen at any point. Both teams missed pretty easy chances at various points. It really could have gone either way. I think Argentina was the much better team overall. And yet, we were very, very close to seeing France lift the trophy a second World Cup in a row.

So, Alex, we were saying earlier in the show that one of the things that made this final so perfect was that the two superstars, Messi and his heir apparent Mbappe, the best players in the world, were at the peak of their powers, that they both had multiple goals. Tell us what you thought as you watched these two legends, living legends already, perform at their very best on the biggest stage. I mean, I think this is what you want out of a World Cup, and it so rarely happens this way,

where you get the best players playing at their best. So often you think about Johan Cruyff, these players who never actually got to lift the trophy. What we're seeing here is Kylian Mbappe, who will be the greatest player in the world in a year or two. But he was not the greatest player in this tournament. That was 35-year-old Lionel Messi. He's 5'7". He doesn't run anymore. He's never been a physical specimen. And yet he just dominated every aspect of this game. He would just pop up in the strangest moments. He'd just

do extraordinary things. Andres, I think the other thing that was amazing about the Argentinian team was, yes, it was all about Messi, but you look at how Di Maria played, you look at Alvarez and his relationship with Messi and how they play together as a team. What's the future of this Argentine team? I mean, Messi is clearly getting towards the end of his career. It's an incredible way to go out. What does the rest of the team look like? What does the future look like for the Argentines? Well, it is a very young team, but I don't know

what the future holds for Argentina because there will be a before and after Leo Messi. This was his fifth World Cup. He came very close in 2014 and lifted the trophy yesterday, but I don't know what will happen and I don't know how Argentina's national team will play now without him. Again, you know, Argentina has very exciting young players like Enzo Fernandez, like Julian Alvarez,

like Alexis, like Alistair. They all have a lot of experience in Europe already. So we will see what happens now. There will be a before and after Messi in the history of Argentine soccer. Well, and this morning, it doesn't really matter. It doesn't because Argentina lifted the trophy yesterday.

And I do, just to follow up on something Alex said about what it means I mean people still when you talk about Cruyff they still talk about the Dutch coming up short in 1974 Cruyff deciding not to play in 1978 just like they will talk about Ronaldo's collapse during this World Cup. This does stay with legends. And yet, for Messi, it's an extraordinary ending. It's not the ending of Cruyff. It's not the ending of Ronaldo. It is as glorious an ending as a sports superstar could dream of having.

Telemundo's soccer announcer, Andres Cantor, thank you so much for coming on. Thank you. Congratulations. And the New Republic's Alex Shepard, thank you as well. We appreciate it.