Morning Joe - Morning Joe 12/27/24

Episode Date: December 27, 2024

The Morning Joe panel discusses the latest in U.S. and world news, politics, sports and culture.

Good morning. Beautiful shot there. The U.S. Capitol before dawn on this Friday morning. Donald Trump was busy again yesterday on his social media site with several reposts, including one about Russian President Vladimir Putin that got some attention. We'll go through that and how their relationship could impact the future of the war in Ukraine. Also ahead, we'll bring you new comments from Trump's border czar on family detention centers and the role that the facilities could have in deportation efforts. And we'll bring you a live

report from Israel following IDF airstrikes targeting an Iran backed terror group in Yemen. Good morning and welcome to Morning Joe. It is Friday, December 27th. We hope you are enjoying your holidays. Thanks for starting today with us. I'm Jonathan Lemire, along with the BBC's Cady Kay. And I'm happy to say we're joined by co-host of the weekend on MSNBC, Simone Sanders Townsend, managing editor at The Bullark, Sam Stein, and columnist and

associate editor for the Washington Post, David Ignatius. Joe Mika and Willie have the morning off. We are grateful to have this great group with us. And we will dive right in. A lot of news to get to you from overseas. And we'll begin with the latest out of Kazakhstan, where a U.S. official is now echoing concerns that a Russian anti-aircraft system may have shot down the Azerbaijan Airlines flight that killed 38 people on Christmas Day. Holes in the plane's fuselage have led several experts and investigators to turn their attention to the possibility that Russia's air defenses could have been the likely cause, despite early reports that the plane hit a flock of birds. The Kremlin, however, warned against

making any immediate judgments about what happened before the investigation comes to a conclusion. The US official, though, added that if early indications proved that Russia was behind this, it would be yet more evidence of Russia's recklessness in its war with Ukraine. At least one airline says it is altering its flights in the region in light of the plane crash and Israel's national carrier announced it's suspending its operations on the Tel Aviv-Moscow route for the coming week and will assess when they may resume and caddy. Certainly this is not the first time that Russia has been accused of downing a civilian

aircraft. No, certainly not. And there was some talk about how this may be birds, but those look suspiciously like kind of gunshot or some kind of bullet holes in that plane. They do not like the kind of things that birds would do. Yeah, it's been a super, I hope you've all had a very good holiday everybody. We did manage to get a little break, but it's been busy around the world. And look at the war in Ukraine. Russian President Vladimir Putin last week signaled his willingness to engage in talks

with President-elect Trump. Yesterday Trump shared on social media an article about those comments titled, Putin says he's ready for potential talks with Trump during year end news conference. That was of course that kind of mega four hour news conference in which he shared that idea. So David Ignatius when you look at that headline and the fact I guess what's interesting is that Donald Trump shared it as much as the President Putin said it very few details yet. What's your initial reaction

caddy my feeling is that this is another that statement of what we've saw sense which is that the season of negotiation is about to begin yeah uh... president product has said through the campaign president-elect rock that that he intends to negotiate can resolve this uh... in twenty four hours, he claimed at one point. But more seriously, he's already designated his special emissary for Ukraine, retired

General Kellogg. He's going to be heading there, I'm told, in just over a week to do some fact finding. In Ukraine, President Trump himself, President-elect Trump has met with Ukrainian President Zelensky in Paris with the orchestration of French President Macron. So the discussions that will lead to a real negotiation have begun. And here's Putin explicitly saying he wants these talks to begin soon. The question that we're all wondering is whether Trump is going to resist perhaps his own instincts to do a quick deal that would involve big concessions by Ukraine, a deal that might

end up biting him in the end if it leaves Ukraine unprotected against future Russian aggression. So all eyes are on that negotiating space. I think even the current administration, the Biden team, knows that negotiations are coming, trying to pump weapons in just to make sure Ukraine has as much leverage going into negotiations as possible. So Sam Stein, a key part of all this, of course, is the relationship between President-elect Donald Trump and Russian President Vladimir Putin. We know that Trump speaks flatteringly of Putin.

Has for years, he was extraordinarily deferential to Putin in that Helsinki news conference. There were times when his administration in the U.S. Senate would be tough on Russia with sanctions, but Trump himself always seemed to give Putin the benefit of the doubt. He also is someone who fancies himself a dealmaker and a hard negotiator. So taking this all together, what's your read on how this relationship will impact what these negotiations could look like? It's between Russia and Ukraine, to be sure. The US is going to play a role.

Right. And that was always the Biden administration's line, which is we have to have Ukraine at the table. It's their country. We can't have direct negotiations with Russia. Obviously, Donald Trump is different than Joe Biden. I think he'll take a different approach here. He'll have direct negotiations or talks, at least,

with Putin. Zelensky will be included. But my sense is that they'll probably end up giving him a take her to Libya type deal. What's interesting here, and David was talking about, is just the state that Russia is in heading into this negotiations. I'm sure Putin imagined that he'd have more of an upper hand at this juncture. Surely, he thought the war would be over by this juncture.

But what we've seen over the last couple of weeks is really a staggering setbacks for Russia across the world. Obviously, what's happening in Syria, Iran, their economic situation, if you read any of the headlines out of Russia, is fairly abysmal. All that said, it's not a great hand that could have to play. And then, of course, as David said, the outgoing Biden administration pumping weapons into Ukraine and also weighing the possibility of additional energy sanctions to weaken Russia further. Trump could undo all this, of course, but that would be a fairly politically precarious

step to take right out of the gate. And so, yeah, I'm curious what he says directly with Putin. But if history is any guide, you imagine that he's gonna give Putin the benefit out, try to get a deal done, because he is on record saying he can get it done so quickly, and then hand it to Zelensky and say, take it or leave it. Yeah, certainly he, there's an appetite from much of his base to end this conflict, but handing Russia a victory might be a different matter. That's not, of course, the only foreign crisis that President-elect Trump will inherit

when he takes office. There is, of course, still the Middle East. And Israel has elected strikes against Yemen's Houthi rebels, targeting the capital and key infrastructure, including the airport and power stations. According to the Wall Street Journal, the attacks aim to deter the Iran-backed group,

which Israel says facilitates Iranian weapons transfers. The Associated Press reports that the World Health Organization's director general was nearby during the strikes with a crew member injured. At least three people were killed and dozens more were hurt in the airport attack. Now, overnight, Israel intercepted a Houthi missile following days of rocket launches that triggered air raid sirens there. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of Israel warned the Houthis would face consequences like other Iranian proxies.

And now joining us live from Tel Aviv is NBC News international correspondent Raf Sanchez. Good morning, Raf. Thank you for joining us. This does seem like an escalation, a ratcheting up there. Give us the latest on the ground from Israel. Jonathan, good morning. These are the most extensive Israeli strikes we have seen against the Iranian-backed Houthi rebels in Yemen so far.

As you said, they targeted a number of seaports, several power stations, but critically, they attacked the main international airport in Yemen in the capital Sana'a. Now Israel says it was targeting military infrastructure belonging to the Houthis inside of the airport. They say that was one of the main transit points for Iranian weapons heading into Yemen, but it's also one of the key places for funneling in desperately needed humanitarian aid into Yemen.

This is the poorest Arab country in the Middle East. It has been going through a rolling humanitarian crisis for basically a decade now. And as you said, these Israeli strikes coming perilously close to the director general of the World Health Organization and his team. He says that they were preparing to take off when these Israeli strikes hit just meters away according to him. He says that while his immediate team was not harmed, one of the crew members of the aircraft that they were supposed to take off from was injured and that the aircraft was not able to take off. The Secretary General of the United Nations

says he is alarmed by this development. We asked the Israeli military, did you realize there was this team of humanitarians on the runway when these strikes came down? They did not respond to our request for comment. In terms of why now and why this escalation, Jonathan, the Houthis have really been ratcheting up their missile fire over the last 10 days or so. Two of their ballistic missiles, which Israel says were partly supplied by Iran, broke through Israel's sophisticated air defenses

they hit here in the greater Tel Aviv area. One of them actually destroyed an elementary school. And what's been really striking is that while Iran's other proxies across the region, Hamas in Gaza, Hezbollah in southern Lebanon have been severely weakened, the Houthis are very much undeterred and defiant. And that is in the face of not just Israeli strikes,

but also waves of American strikes conducted in response to the Houthis targeting international shipping vessels in the Red Sea. And just this morning, Jonathan, 3 a.m. local time, a familiar sound for Israelis in Tel Aviv, the sirens going off once again, and the military says that was a response to yet another Houthi missile.

So it does not appear that these Israeli strikes last night have accomplished their mission of deterring the Houthis, at least not yet. Yeah, the Houthis' range is kind of remarkable, given how far Yemen is from Israel right down the bottom of the Red Sea, Raf. There have been reports out of Israel and here in the press, too, about the Israelis after the fall of Assad, the degradation of Hezbollah and even Iran feeling kind of emboldened to remake the Middle East,

to kind of this could be a moment that could be seized to fundamentally shift the region and getting rid of the H of, this could be a moment that could be seized to fundamentally shift the region. And getting rid of the Houthis would obviously be part of that, or degrading the Houthis would be part of that. Do you feel that's what the Israelis are feeling at the moment? I think there are definitely people around Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, Cady, who are advising him exactly this, that this is a moment of historic opportunity, that Hezbollah, who have long been basically a loaded gun pointed at Israel, turned out

ultimately to be a little bit of a paper tiger. Their vast rocket arsenal decimated by Israeli strikes, their leader Hassan Nasrallah killed, and ultimately Hezbollah had to sue for peace. And then Iran itself, its air defenses, especially around Tehran, appear to be very severely degraded by an Israeli strike a little earlier this year. And so there are people around Netanyahu who are telling him, this is the moment to strike Iran itself. This is the moment potentially to attack its nuclear facilities to try to make sure that it cannot get to a nuclear weapon.

I think the reality, Kadhi, is that the Israeli military, for all of its firepower, would probably struggle to carry out a comprehensive attack on Iran's nuclear facilities, many of which are embedded inside of mountains. They would likely need significant support from the United States in terms of refueling, in terms of heavy bunker busting bombs. And so at this point, we have not yet seen Netanyahu really, really ratchet up against Iran. The strikes that he ordered against the Iranians were relatively limited.

But we will see when the Trump administration takes office, whether Netanyahu newly emboldens decides that this is the moment to go ahead and potentially whether he asks for American support. Katie. Okay. NBC's Raf Sanchez there. Raf, thank you very much for that. It's going to be an interesting moment for the Trump administration to take over in January. South Korean lawmakers, meanwhile, have voted to impeach acting President Han Deok-soo just two weeks after voting to impeach the country's president. 192 lawmakers voted for the measure, more than 151 votes needed for it to succeed.

Prime Minister Han took over the role after President Moon was impeached. You'll remember that was following his failed attempt to impose martial law in the country earlier this month. The move comes after Han refused demands to complete Yun's impeachment process. That development brings us to a new piece in the New York Times, which says President Biden and his aides strengthened key U.S. alliances

during his presidential term, but also courted leaders who undermined the power and standing of key U.S. alliances during his presidential term, but also courted leaders who undermined the power and standing of the U.S. around the world. The article analyzes America's alliances under Biden and how his administration was caught by surprise when partners like South Korea and Israel have acted against U.S. interests. As The Times notes, serious problems emerged with leaders in Afghanistan, Israel, South Korea and the UAE. In each case, Mr. Biden and his aides were caught by surprise and then stayed quiet when those leaders failed in their roles or rejected policy suggestions and diplomatic efforts by the Americans. Mr. Biden's unwavering

public support of an Israel-led by Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu as it wages a deadly war against Hamas in Gaza has been especially costly in terms of American and global public opinion. The Times goes on to read the partnerships that Mr. Biden promoted not only during his presidency, but throughout his political career, could prove unable to withstand new challenges during a second Trump administration. But recent events have shown that the alliances were always shakier and more contentious than the vision painted by Mr. Biden and other proponents in Washington. David, that's such a, it's such an interesting kind of counterintuitive argument

because the Biden administration has put so much effort into and been kind of so proud of its efforts, particularly in Southeast Asia, I think, in shoring up America's allies against China. Do you buy the argument that actually this is, we're going to look back at this with quite a revisionist view of the degree to which those supposed purported allies were actually willing to act in America's best interests. You know, I think it's very premature to dismiss this network of allies and partners that the Biden administration created. I haven't seen NATO in decades as strong and forceful as it's been in responding

to the Russian invasion of Ukraine. It got off to a slow start. It was pushed by the Biden team to recognize the danger that was coming. And European assistance to Ukraine is now substantial, beginning to rival out of the United States. In Asia, the same thing. I think the Biden diplomacy focused initially on Japan, a traditional, very close ally, but then branching out to triangles that include Japan, South Korea, the United States, Japan, the Philippines, the United States, the AUKUS partnership with Australia, the Quad that drew India in. It's a whole network all across the Indo-Pacific

region that was aimed at buffering the competition we all know as a central foreign policy challenge with China. So this was a centerpiece of how Biden approached foreign policy. The idea that it was all based on kind of empty promises from these allies and that the relationships were much more frail. Not ready to buy that yet. Let's see how the partnerships fare under Donald Trump. If there's fundamental alignment of interest between the U.S. and these other countries, they should continue into the future and Trump himself should realize the U.S. and these other countries, they should continue into the future, and Trump himself should realize the benefit.

If they were weak, we may see them begin to fray and fall apart. Yeah, that's the central question here. Does Trump turn his back on alliances, like he did his first time, when he almost pulled the United States out of NATO, where he repeatedly, you know, with bombastic rhetoric, you targeted our long-time,

the United States' long-time allies. We will see what happens next. But Simone, of course, you know President Biden and his approach so well, and he does put alliances, personal relationships even, with some of these other world leaders at the center of his foreign policy, truly believes in transatlanticism

and making inroads there in the Pacific. How do you suspect history will judge his efforts? Are they completely dependent on what happens next? I actually, I agree with David here. I don't think it's completely dependent on what happens next. I think each president is judged by what they do as president and in their lasting legacy, how well what they have implemented essentially holds up. When it comes to the NATO partnerships, particularly the countries within NATO, strengthening the

alliances. I mean, you talk to any world leader, any NATO ally, and they will say that President Biden did yeoman's work to strengthen the coalition, to keep people together. Yes, NATO membership is concerned about what America's role will now be with President-elect Trump assuming the presidency yet again, but it is Joe Biden that made those alliances strong. I think the New York Times report is very interesting

because it seemingly says that, oh, Joe Biden had all of these things that he wanted to do and he talked positively about relationships. But there were all these—this turmoil happening in different places around the world, and somehow he is to be blamed for situations that already existed. The United States, when you go in to do diplomacy work, if you will, when we're talking to our international partners, it is not the United States coming in with a heavy hand saying this is what's gonna happen here and there

and everywhere around the world. It is understanding where the alliances are, where the pieces are on the board, and then figuring out how best to work within those and staying strong and keeping strong our values. I think that's what Joe Biden and his administration sought to do and did do. Yes, there are challenges with Prime Minister Netanyahu,

to be clear, but the president had a long relationship with the prime minister. He's someone that has said he's known Prime Minister Netanyahu for, think about what, 40 years. And so the way in which Joe Biden developed his foreign policy muscles, if you will, how you do business with folks, how you negotiate, what you do in public versus what you do in private,

that has held through throughout his entire presidency. Donald Trump, he does business a little bit differently. business with folks, how you negotiate, what you do in public versus what you do in private. That has held through throughout his entire presidency. Donald Trump, he does business a little bit differently. So we are going to see a tale of two diplomacies, if you will, very shortly in this new world order. Yeah. And so many different global hotspots to address. All right.

Everybody stay put. Still ahead here on Morning Joe, the first woman has entered the race to become the next leader of the Democratic National Committee. We'll tell you who it is. Plus, we'll go through new reporting on Trump voters who now fear that the president-elect may cut programs and resources that they depend on. And also ahead, we'll have the latest on efforts by Trump allies in the House to remove speaker Mike Johnson from his post. You're watching Morning Joe. We'll be right back.

["The Daily Show Theme"] Back, author, and former presidential candidate Marianne Williamson. Yes, Marianne Williamson has launched a campaign to become the next chair of the Democratic National Committee. In an open letter to DNC membership, Williamson says the party needs to understand the emotional force of President-elect Donald Trump's appeal and quote, create the energy to counter it. She also posted this video. I'm announcing I'm running for DNC chair because I feel that I can bring a level of expertise to the process of lifting up this possibility of victory

over the next two and four years in a way that will not occur if we are only looking traditional means of politicking in order to make that happen. Williamson is the latest candidate and the first woman to jump into the race to succeed outgoing DNC chair Jamie Harrison. The 72-year-old may face an upward battle for the role as she's up against a handful of current and former party officials. The election will be held on February 1st. Simone, do you think Marianne Williamson is what the Democratic Party needs to turn things around?

You know, Jonathan, as I was reading this this morning, I was just wondering who keeps telling Marianne Williamson to run for all these different positions. She's ran for president now twice, now she wants to be DNC chair, maybe she's going to run for Senate, I don't know, next cycle. It's just very interesting to me. I don't know if Maryam Williamson is what the majority of DNC members will be looking for.

I would bet my last dollar. I highly doubt it. However, this is going to... She is a candidate, if she reaches the right number of signatures, to be an actual candidate for DNC chair. While she has announced the question, it says she has the signatures. She needs at least 40 different signatures from actual DNC members certified in order to be in the race. Now, there are other people that have met that threshold, but everyone that has met the threshold will have to participate in these candidate forums. I think the candidate forums are going to make things a lot clearer when it comes to

what these candidates, their vision is for the Democratic National Committee, but also how they're going to raise money. I think there's a common misconception that the chair's job is to go on television and be a good talking head, but the reality is the chair's job is to go on television and be a good talking head. But the reality is the chair has to be able to raise money and has to have the gravitas to work with the Democratic leaders in the House and the Senate. I don't know if, you know, Chuck Schumer is going to be taking his cues from Marianne Williamson over in the Senate, but, you know, stranger things have happened.

Sam Stein, I know you've been a longtime and careful chronicler of Marianne Williamson's career, so feel free to weigh in on her long shot bid here, but also just more broadly to Simone's point here, what should Democrats be looking for here in its new chair? Simone just laid out well what that person's responsibilities are. And this comes at a moment where, yes, margins were close. Let's not overlook that. But certainly, Democrats took some pretty crushing defeats come November. Thank you for establishing my credentials to talk about this. I don't think she's going to win, not breaking news here. I will be interested, though, in seeing how fellow Democrats treat her.

By that, I mean we just left a cycle in which the left wing of the party, by left I'm sort of overstating it, but the people sort of personified by Marion Williamson, Robert F. Kennedy Jr. felt dismissed by establishment Democrats and felt hurt by that establishment Democrats and felt that the party was pushing them out. And they went to connect the ideological horseshoe with the MAGA movement. And that's why you have R.F.K. Jr. now serving potentially in the Trump cabinet.

Marion Williamson is not necessarily a fellow ideological traveler with R.F.K. Jr., but she's close enough. And I'm wondering if Democrats will take a lesson from 2024 and try to accommodate or at least incorporate or at least treat with more respect, I guess, is the way to put it, her candidacy without being outright dismissive of it. That said, the party is probably almost assuredly not going to go with her because the party needs a few things. One is, as someone said, a robust fundraiser atop of the party. The second is someone who could build actual party institutions. Look, I did actually chronicle

some of Marianne Williamson's candidacies. Her campaigns were disastrous internally, a lot of infighting, very poor money management. That's not what the party is going to want. It's not what the party frankly needs. The third thing is just sort of an understanding of how to handle this modern media ecosystem. The real debate happening right now in the Democratic Party is where do you put your message and who are your messengers? Can you build a media infrastructure on your own or do you need to push forward with the existing system and try to go on to conservative and alt-media and podcasts and things like that? Those are the three big questions that face the next DNC chair. I don't think Mary Williamson is going to have the

answers for those three that most of the party members want, but I am curious to see how they treat her candidacy. Yeah, when Sam Stein says probably most assuredly not going to go with her, I think that means it's no. I've interviewed her too. She's pretty thin-skinned and when you challenge her about some of those management challenges and stories of staff being very unhappy with her leadership, you don't get very far. She's pretty prickly about it. I also don't think that's what the DNC chair needs to be right now. So let's look at another story. This caught my eye over the last couple of days, not full of holiday cheer. As the year comes to a close, Gallup's latest monthly survey finds that only 19% of Americans believe that the country is heading in the right direction. When broken

down by party, the survey shows Democrats' satisfaction with the direction of the country fell 17 points between October and December, from 47 percent to 30 percent. That might have the election to do with that one. On the Republican side, though, GOP satisfaction rose to 16 percent from October to November following the election, but it's fallen back down again to 9 percent. David Ignatius says Americans look not just at their own role around the election, but it's fallen back down again to 9%. David Ignatius says Americans look not just at their own role around the world, but at the state of their own country. We get to the end of 2024, whatever the Trump administration looks like it's going to bring

in with not very many people having terribly high expectations. So Katia, I felt after the election that although the country was fairly evenly split, Trump did better than expected, but it was a thin majority overall. The one thing on which there was overwhelming consensus in the United States, Republicans and Democrats, cross-age groups, is that the country's heading in the wrong direction, that people are fundamentally dissatisfied, and as you said earlier, pessimistic, about where the United States is heading. And I think that's the challenge that Joe Biden wanted to meet. That trend was already visible in 2020 when he was elected, but he couldn't.

He couldn't find a way to take that desire for change and make it his theme. Donald Trump is the change candidate as he heads toward inauguration, but will he be able to satisfy this feeling? We're going in the wrong direction. Our country isn't as strong as it has been. But I think the poll that you cited, Cady, illuminates what's really the most interesting

fact about American politics today, which is beyond all our divisions, we're united on this one thing. The country is heading down, and people are unhappy about it. Trends troubling for any incumbent. We see that certainly around the globe, and most particularly unhappy about it. Trends troubling for any incumbent. We see that certainly around the globe and most particularly here at home. Associated for the Washington Post, David Ignatius. Thank you, David.

And co-host of the weekend, I'm SNBC, Simone Sanders Townsend. Thank you, Simone. We appreciate both of you. So some other headlines we're following this morning. Many Americans are capping off the holiday season with new debt. According to a survey from Lending Tree, 36% of American consumers took on holiday debt this year.

The average balance was about $1,200 up from just over $1,000 last year. Experts say that higher prices caused by inflation were an issue for many individuals and families this year. Now, winning the lottery, well, that would help with that debt. And the jackpot for tonight's Mega Millions drawing has reached an estimated $1.15 billion. Yeah, that'll get rid of your debt, making it the fifth largest prize in the game's history. Now, while the odds may not be in your favor, a winner could walk away with a lump sum payment of about $516 million after taxes.

With that, you could buy an NHL team. And then, New York City is gearing up to ring in the new year, and that includes the iconic ball drop in Times Square. The famed crystal balls installation will take place later this morning in the crossroads of the world. A local New York City company made the more than 2,600 triangular crystals that adorn the ball, which measures 12 feet in diameter and weighs more than 11,000 pounds.

My midnight plans, well, I've been asleep for hours. Coming up next here, we'll speak to Pablo Torre about Netflix's record-breaking move into live streaming with two NFL games on Christmas Day. There he is. Moy Joe will be right back. Guys, let's see what he does here. About to get 10, or it's good night, Irene. Throws it up in the air, and it is intercepted. So that was the game ending interception for the Seattle Seahawks against Chicago Bears

last night. Both offenses struggled all evening with the teams combining for only nine points. Yeah, the score at the bottom of the screen was right. Six to three. The field goal fest got started by Seattle in the first quarter. The Bears would tie it late in the first half with a 42-yard field goal. And then kicker Jason Myers hit a 50-yarder just before halftime.

Yes, we're showing you field goal highlights because we have nothing else. There was no other scoring on the night. Seahawks defense stood out sacking Bears rookie quarterback Caleb Williams seven times. Last night's win does keep Seattle's playoff hopes alive for now. Joining us now, the host of Pablo Torre finds out on Metal Arch Media, MSNBC contributor Pablo Torre. So Pablo, I've made the executive decision. We will not speak about that game last night.

Oh, my God. Other than to say, yet another terrible Thursday night football game. Last week's was really bad, too. And I got to say, the NFL seems like it's on every day right now, which I would want, personally. It's overexposure. We're also seeing teams on short rest, the quality of play really pretty poor. Yeah.

But America does not seem to mind, because Netflix set records with its football streams on Christmas Day. Nielsen says that 65 million US viewers tuned in for at least one minute of the two NFL games. Both games averaged about 24 million viewers, beating the previous mark of 23 million for last season's AFC wild card game,

which was between the Miami Dolphins and Kansas City Chiefs that aired on Peacock. Viewership peaked on Christmas Day with the Beyonce Bowl. Her nearly 13 minute halftime performance averaged over 27 million viewers. And again, those games on Christmas Day weren't great either. Beyonce was, but America's watching all the same.

Yeah, America's demand for football is inelastic, I think economists like to say. And when I say that it's a demand for football, I truly do mean that the NFL at this point, I think, could just put a football on a table and get like 10 million people to watch it. Bears, Seahawks, the opposite on any sort of cultural spectrum from what Beyonce gave America, but we should

not bury the lead here, which is that there are a lot of teams in the NFL that have played now three games in 11 days. The Kansas City Chiefs being one of them, the Steelers being another. The Steelers happened to have lost all of those games, including the one to the Chiefs on Christmas as 25 or so million people in allegedly 200 plus countries watched, although I do want to get a list of like what 200 countries, because that is a lot of countries. I don't know how you can get to 200 necessarily without counting

some nation states. I think the UN only recognizes like 180 something. So I'm not really sure where those last few are coming from. A global demand that is outstripping maybe the actual globe itself at this point, which is very much the Roger Goodell strategy. Cause to your point, John, the NFL sees the world as a risk board,

as a game, as a board to be conquered. And so when they go head to head against not just college football, which we alluded to last week, because of course they did that on the first weekend of the college football playoff. They go head to head against the NBA on Christmas day, which was the NBA's holiday, leading by the way,

to one of the funnier post-game valedictory addresses by LeBron James after the Lakers beat the Warriors in a really good game, by the way. He declared that Christmas is our holiday, speaking of basketball and the NBA, because there is a sense of the NFL eating the world, eating everything else, and it's working. I just don't think it's correlating to a great product right now. And I think at some point you probably have to wonder, when is the NFL fracking its own

product? When are they just getting as much as they can get out of it already? And now it's gonna have deleterious effects as yes, at the towns and a league that's still Christmas. Just a brutal, grinchy experience for the NBA. That's the back page of the New York Daily News. And we should know, LeBron declares that the NBA owned Christmas and yet the NBA games averaged

about 5 million viewers, so about one-fifth of what the NFL did. And I do want to point out the NBA games were really good. I was doing the thing of which is now very hard to do, of flipping between Netflix and as well as my linear television. And the NBA games were great. It's not a commentary on the entertainment value. The NBA actually won the day on that level. It's just that they had five times fewer when it comes to the viewership.

And so, yeah, look, the NBA thing, John, we can talk about this for a while too. But just to summarize it, the NBA has an issue where people are complaining about their product because it doesn't feel, let's just call it eventized is a term of art these days. The NFL has only so many games, right? The NBA has 82, but you watch LeBron, you watch Steph, and you're like, this is the solution and also the problem because they need to have some stuff beyond LeBron and Steph. And we got some of it, Webonyama, the Knicks even, but it's an uphill road when it comes to getting the American attention back into their good graces.

Yeah, and the NBA ratings were actually decent on Christmas, but you're right. There's a lot of concerns in that league right now. No one's watching those games night to night. There seems to be too much inventory, too many players changing teams, too many three pointers. These are all the common complaints. And yes, the idea that they haven't been able to really cultivate that next generation of star.

What do they do when LeBron, Curry, Durant all leave the stage? So Sam Stein, I mean, I'm not going to talk about the Celtics on Christmas. That was a dreadful performance. But let's just talk about, though, this moment in sports culture where, you know, it is just it does feel like the NFL is just this juggernaut that sort of stomps everything in its path. Other sports are healthy. Baseball's had a really good couple years, particularly after the rule changes. Soccer's on the rise.

I'm an NHL fan. But it's football, and it's everything else. Yeah, football is king. It's just the beast of American sports. People love it. We can have an insatiable appetite for it. Sometimes we can make the argument that things are cyclical and then we'll go back to loving baseball and basketball more. But the truth of the matter is this is a multi-decade trend here where people just are gravitating towards

football. I will say, I've listened to a lot of commentary about the NBA's poor ratings and the product that it's putting forth, and I agree with some of it. The league is almost out in analytics itself, right? There's so many hit-pointers and so many drives, and that's it. And so it becomes kind of a product that is a little bit difficult to watch. But if you watched Wemby on Christmas, which I did, you saw the future. I mean, this man is a freak, a 7'4 freak, and he's so good, and he's going to revolutionize the game that he might be too good almost because there's nothing he can't do.

And so I'm not as totally bearish on the NBA as others are. I think the product's actually pretty good. I think there's a future in which we have these incredible international stars. I think the international market for the NBA is going to keep going up. But ultimately, this is a football country. It may be a football globe if we're talking about 200 countries, which I agree. What are we talking about here? But yeah, this is a problem Adam Silver is trying to deal with right now. And some of the solutions could potentially be cutting down the actual size of the season. I don't know how you do that without hurting the sanctity of the record books, but you do need to make some changes if you're the NBA.

But not too many. Again, Wembe, unbelievable what he was doing on Christmas. Just the Wembe thing, John, because Sam is right. Wemba Nyama, someone put it well, and I forgive you for not knowing who posted this. But if you were to describe Victor Wemba Nyama, who is from France, a teenager, a seven-foot a zillion, as Sam was saying, if you were to describe him to someone who

doesn't know him, it would sound like you're describing your imaginary friend. Oh, it's this guy named Victor who has an eight-foot wing span, and he can dunk in two threes and he basically is a ballet dancer as well as a monster truck and he can do anything and he's the future and it's all real. I do think the international point is really interesting because the NBA internationally is surging. You know the NFL, it's funny, as much as I say Roger Goodell sees the NFL and the world as a game of risk to be won, it's not as successful as what Adam Silver has been doing

in terms of exporting it outwards. So we give the Jaguars to the UK every year. Don't know if that's necessarily cottoning the international market to our way of life, as we would have hoped. But in the NBA, I think there is this interesting double bind where in America, yeah, it's just not as big of a deal right now. But abroad, it is the thing. And it's the thing that the internet

has carried over. Let me just say, giving London the Jaguars every year is a violation of the Geneva Conventions. And we probably should be brought up to the ICC for new. It's an awful product to give them. and the game's never good. Yeah, we thought Donald Trump would have an adversarial foreign relations to our allies. Well, let's see what Roger Goodell is doing there in the UK. But you're right about the NBA. I don't think they'll give up too many games because the owners won't want to give up the gate that they won't cut the season schedule.

And I think the other part is the international. There are a lot of great international stars in the NBA right now. And Bill Simmons has been on this quite a bit from the ringer. But those international, whether it's Jokic or Luka or Wemba Niyama or even Giannis, these are all guys who don't seem to be resonating with American audience quite as much.

Yes, Jay, Canadian. At least not yet. There's so many of them. But it'll be interesting to see where the league goes next. Let's turn the page now with this. And if you had a, guys, if you had a Toledo Rockets highlight on your morning Joe bingo card this morning you win. This team needs a conversion to tie it and extend the game Desmond Reid back

into the game. Here comes the presser. Under dress. Dugger under duress. And there are no flags. In 60T's. That's right, the Toledo Rockets win the game above Sports Bowl. It's in the same class as the Rose Bowl after a bowl record six over times. The Rockets thought they had won the game two periods earlier when it appeared they had stopped Pittsburgh's quarterback at the goal line and they even stormed the field in celebration. But the refs and coaches had to corral the players

back to the sideline as the play was reviewed and overturned touchdown tie the game that led to two more over times and that eventual game winning stop by Toledo. I know some devastated University of Pittsburgh fans. And Pablo, though, we have one more story for you. It's actually in the realm of politics. And former presidential candidate Vivek Ramaswamy, now part of the Doge effort with Elon Musk, he published a lengthy post in recent days about American workers. In this post, Ramaswamy explained why he feels tech companies choose to hire foreign workers

over Americans. He boiled it all down to, quote, culture. He wrote in part this, our American culture has venerated mediocrity over excellence for way too long. That doesn't start in college. It starts young. A culture that celebrates the prom queen over the math or Olympiad champ or the jock over the valedictorian will not produce the best engineers.

He continued Trump's election hopefully marks the beginning of a new golden era in America, but only if our culture fully wakes up a culture that once again prioritizes achievement over normalcy, excellence over mediocrity, nerdiness over conformity, and hard work over laziness. And Pablo, you went to college with Vivek Ramaswamy. You've spoken about that experience a couple of times. Give us your reaction to this because, I don't know, it could be sure interpreted as a swipe at a lot of the people who cast their ballots for Donald Trump.

It's a remarkable heat check from a guy who is not actually very good at speaking to, I believe, the reality of what's going on in America. And I say that, of course, is my own subjective opinion. But this red, at some point, there's a line in this very long post, which you didn't quote, which I will. He says, we need more creating, less chilling. And I say chilling with the G missing. And it just feels like a breakfast club speech written by a large language model. And it is, politically, I think, a horrible decision

insofar as the coalition that he joined was mostly interested in him because of how he enabled their own grievances. And when I say they, I mean the core of the MAGA base, which is America first in a way that means white America first. And so if he's gonna talk to that base, a nativist base, the same way that, I don't know, white people have been talking to black people in America

for a really long time, I don't think they're gonna like it. to black people in America for a really long time. I don't think they're going to like it. And so what we're seeing now is this coalition that has fractured that wasn't actually all that incentivized in the same direction when it came to what does Silicon Valley want and what is quote unquote the America first movement want. And you can recast America first as Elon has done his co-head of Doge to say this is about America winning the game as if they are a sports team, as if we are a sports team, as if we are a business, as opposed to a place that's supposed to prioritize as the, again, base of America First would like it to be, white Americans first.

But I believe that this is a remarkable fracturing ahead of inauguration day of a coalition that didn't make a lot of logical sense. And that's before, John, you get to the idea that this guy is talking about TV shows being the cause of this. He's saying that America isn't sufficiently Urkel enough. That's literally an argument, T. Bade. You know? And I'm just like, why is this guy trying to articulate a vision for America for anyone?

That's the part that I returned to and have for 20 years. Yeah, no, reading the post here, he not only takes a shot at friends, but he praises Screech and Saved by the Bell. That's right. Indeed, the Steve Urkel character as well. Make America Urkel again might as well have been the title of this post. Yeah, we will see how that relationship develops in the months ahead.

Host to Pablo Torre Finds Out on Metal Arch Media, Pablo Torre, doing a lot of work for us this morning. Thank you, Pablo and Sam Stein. Thank you as well, buddy. We appreciate it. Next up here, with less than a month left in office, we're going to take a look at President Biden's final days as he prepares to address the country and the Democratic Party.

MSNBC's Michelle Norris is standing by with her analysis. Plus, we'll speak with the co-authors of a new book, Kamala, her historic, joyful, and auspicious sprint to the White House, which follows her rise from California's district attorney to her presidential run. And also ahead, for the second time in a month, an unticketed passenger sneaks on board a Delta Airlines flight. We'll take a look at what happens when authorities realized this latest mistake. Morning, Joe.

We'll be right back. Don't go anywhere. So here's an odd that airlines is investigating how an individual without a ticket was able to sneak on board a flight from Seattle to Hawaii on Christmas Eve. This all comes just one month after a woman was caught on a Delta flight to France, also without a ticket. NBC News correspondent Morgan Chesky has the latest. One month after a woman was caught on a Delta flight to France, also without a ticket, NBC News correspondent Morgan Chesky has the latest.

At Seattle's SeaTec airport, federal investigators pouring over security protocol after someone snuck on a Delta flight bound for Hawaii without a boarding pass. Port of Seattle police dispatching officers to a gate on Christmas Eve after the Delta flight crew discovered an unidentified passenger turning the plane around just before takeoff. Delta, stating their staff, followed procedures to have an unticketed passenger removed from the flight and then apprehended. TSA confirming the individual did go through standard screening and did not possess any prohibited items but then bypass bypass the identity verification and boarding

status stations, somehow getting on the plane without a boarding pass. The incident happened on the same day that crews in Maui found a body inside the wheel well of a United flight that had traveled from Chicago. And over Thanksgiving, authorities say Svetlana Dlly now faces federal charges after sneaking past security checkpoints at JFK to board a Delta flight to Paris with no passport or ticket that's concerned. Former TSA safety director Keith Jeffries tells NBC News no security system is perfect.

Do these incidents as a whole raise new security questions. First of all I will tell you that any time someone passes the ticket document checker location without being news security questions.