Morning Joe - Morning Joe 12/28/22

Episode Date: December 28, 2022

Stranded and frustrated customers scramble to find flights and alternative travel

This is, I think, one of the biggest concerns, Congressman-elect, is that you don't really seem to be taking this seriously. You've apologized. You said you've made mistakes, but you've outright lied. A lie is not an embellishment on a resume. You said you worked at Goldman Sachs and Citigroup, but they've said we've got no record of this guy working for us. You've said you've gone to and graduated from these universities, but they've said, well, we've got no record of that. These are blatant lies, and it calls into question how your constituents and the American people can believe anything that you may say when you are standing on the floor of the House of Representatives, supposedly fighting for them. That's the real issue here. Well, look, I agree with what you're saying. And as I stated, and I continue,

we can debate my resume and how I worked with firms such as. Is it debatable or is it just false? No, it's debatable. No, it's not false at all. It's debatable. Congressman Alex Santos, we've given you a lot of time. I think the time that is owed is to the people of New York's third. It's hard to imagine how they could possibly trust your explanations when you're not really even willing to admit the depth of your deception to them. Thank you so much for being here and joining us. Thank you, Tulsi. Congressman-elect George Santos confronted for lying about his resume by Tulsi Gabbard? We'll have more from that well-deserved but unexpected grilling.

Plus, holiday travel misery continues for thousands across the country as Southwest Airlines struggles to bounce back from delays and cancellations. Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg is now speaking out about how he expects the airline to make good while vowing to hold the company accountable. Meanwhile, parts of New York are still trying to recover from the storm that caused these major disruptions. The driving ban in Buffalo remains in effect amid ongoing efforts to clear the streets. We'll have the latest from there. Plus, the Supreme Court blocks the Biden administration from ending the COVID-era policy that allowed officials to turn away migrants at the border. We'll explain what this means for the ongoing immigration crisis. Good morning and welcome to Morning Joe. It's Wednesday, December 28th. I'm Jonathan

Lemire alongside the BBC's Katty Kay. We're in for Joe, Mika and Willie. And joining us, MSNBC and NBC News National Affairs Analyst, Executive Editor of The Recount and host of the Hell and High Water podcast, John Heilman, Washington Bureau Chief for USA Today, Susan Page and Associate Professor of Political Science at Fordham University, Christina Greer. Katty, let's start with the storm. The death toll continues to rise. Americans continue to be stranded. Yeah.

By the way, all of those introductions were absolutely correct. There was no resume embellishment even for John Heinemann there. The troubles continue for Southwest Airlines and its passengers this morning. More than 2,500 additional flights are expected to be cancelled today again. And the airline says that it could take days more to restore normal operations. That's more than 8,000 cancelled flights since Monday. Southwest CEO Bob Jordan says the airline has been unable to get flight crews to where they need to be, compounding the effects of the bad weather. In an interview on NBC Nightly News last night,

Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg demanded that Southwest take care of its stranded passengers and employees. They told me in their words that they will go above and beyond their written customer service plan. I'm going to be holding them accountable for doing that. Does that mean financial compensation? Over the summer, we saw a lot of issues them accountable for doing that. Does that mean financial compensation? Over the summer, we saw a lot of issues with a lot of airlines. Does that mean financial compensation?

Absolutely. I mean, first of all, at a minimum, there need to be cash refunds for the canceled flights, and they need to be taking care of passengers where they got stuck with meals, hotel compensation. Now, they've put up a website to get those kinds of requests in. Again, we're hearing from a lot of passengers who haven't been able to get to anybody on the phone. So I'm looking to the airline to make sure not just that they're meeting the bare minimum of legal requirements, but they're really taking care of passengers who are stuck and in many cases stuck without an end in sight. Yeah, which it doesn't seem they've been doing so far. The Department

of Transportation also issued a statement claiming it will, quote, take action to hold Southwest accountable if it fails to fulfill its obligations. Southwest claims in a statement that it was, quote, fully staffed and prepared for the approaching holiday weekend when the severe weather swept across the continent, adding, quote,

operational conditions force daily changes of an unprecedented volume and magnitude to our flight schedule and the tools our teams use to recover the airline remain at capacity. I'm not even sure exactly what that means. The company acknowledged the current situation is, quote, unacceptable, adding, quote, we recognize falling short and sincerely apologize. Members of the Senate Commerce Committee are calling on Southwest to acknowledge clearly that the issues were caused by an internal system failure and not weather, since weather cancellations do not require compensation.

As for the winter storm, the death toll that continues to rise. Erie County, New York, reported three additional deaths yesterday, bringing the total there to 31 people. In Buffalo, the mayor is now saying crews are working to restore power to just under 2,000 city residents, down from 20,000 at the height of the storm. The city is still under a driving ban because crews are continuing to plow the streets with their focus on creating paths for ambulances, police, rescue vehicles and medical workers. To help clear the roads, the state police have begun using a device called a rook to lift cars that were stuck and blocking driveways. Because of those blocked streets,

some officers in the city have had to resort to conducting rescue efforts on snowmobiles. And now the latest concern, a forecast of rain and warmer temperatures later in the week could elevate the risk of major flooding across the region as the snow melts. You'd think that warm weather would be welcome, but watch out for that flooding. Yeah, John Howman, we know that the airlines have had trouble bouncing back from the pandemic. There's been, in the last months, the demand seems to overwhelm the supply. And we've had travel snafus before, major delays. We've seen this. This one, there's a weather storm, yes. But there also seems to be one particular airline that has fallen down on the job. And it's a test of the Transportation Secretary here, too, to press them

and hold them accountable. Because right now, we're seeing scenes, it's days later, people stranded in airports across the country. Footage from O'Hare Airport in Chicago last night, thousands upon thousands of bags just stranded there. I want to say the upside for Pete Buttigieg here is much smaller than the downside for Southwest Airlines. People know all due respect to the Transportation Secretary, but there are thousands and thousands of customers from Southwest who are going to, I think, but there are thousands and thousands of customers from Southwest who are going to, I think, take it out on Southwest. I personally have heard at least three different people who are like, I'll never fly this airline again. Southwest

has a strange core of hardcore devotees and other people who just don't want to ever get on that airline. And the people who are hardcore devotees have been loyal for a long time. Every airline, every transportation system was hit by this storm. But as you just said a second ago, there's no other airline that experienced the kind of disproportionate impact that Southwest did. And it's so devastating. It's such a key time for people trying for the first time in a couple years. A lot of cases have people haven't been home for Christmas since the pandemic started. People got stuck. I think the future for this company in terms of what's going to happen to its share price, in terms of what's going to happen to its customer base, this could be a devastating blow to the airline. Yeah, really in doubt. Southwest Airlines is not the only one attempting to do some

damage control in the last 24 hours because we're now less than a week away from the new congressional term. And Republican House leadership is still silent over what, if anything, they will do about you-know-who, Congressman-elect George Santos. The incoming lawmaker admitted earlier this week to deliberately lying about several key details of his background, including education, work history, and even personal life. That's all, just all of it. But even without a word from leadership, many on the right are calling for a response themselves. The Republican Jewish Coalition slams Santos.

In a statement, the group's CEO writes this, He deceived us and misrepresented his heritage. In public comments and to us personally, he previously claimed to be Jewish. Fellow Republican New York Congressman-elect veteran Nick Lolota responded to the controversy on Twitter, writing, as a Navy man who campaigned on restoring accountability and integrity to our government, I believe a full investigation by the House Ethics Committee and, if necessary, law enforcement is required. The Nassau County Republican Committee chair said in a statement that he is deeply disappointed in Mr. Santos and expected more than just a blanket apology. The damage that his lies have caused to many people,

especially those who have been impacted by the Holocaust, are profound. However, he stopped short of calling for Santos to resign. But Trump advisor Jason Miller went all the way. In a social media post, he simply wrote this, get rid of this loser. Santos appeared on Fox News yesterday in an interview with a fill-in host, former Democratic Congressman Tulsi Gabbard, who repeatedly called him out for his lies. What does the word integrity mean to you? Well, Tulsi, thank you for having me. You know, to answer your question, integrity is very important. And like I said to the New York

Post, embellishing my resume is a mistake. What does it mean, though? What does it mean? Because the meaning of the word actually matters in practice. Of course. It means to carry yourself in an honorable way. And I made a mistake. And I think humans are flawed. And we all make mistakes, Tulsi. The thing is, Congressman-elect, integrity means, yes, carrying yourself with honor. But it means telling the truth, being a person of integrity. And if I were one of those in New York's 3rd district right now, now that the election is over and I'm finding out all of these lies that you've told, not just one little lie or one little embellishment, these are blatant lies. My question is, do you have no shame?

Do you have no shame in the people who are now you're asking to trust you to go and be their voice for them, their families and their kids in Washington? Tulsi, I can say the same thing about the Democrats and the party. Look at Joe Biden. Joe Biden has been lying to the American people for 40 years. He's the president of the United States. Democrats resoundingly support him. Do they have no shame? Are you Jewish? We've got a letter that your campaign sent out earlier this year, which reads as follows. As a proud American Jew, I've been to Israel numerous times for educational, business and leisurely trips.

You said there in that letter that you are, quote, a proud American Jew. How do you how do you explain that? My heritage is Jewish. I've always identified as Jewish. I was raised a practicing Catholic. I think I've gone through this. Even not being raised a practicing Jew, I've always joked with friends in circles. Even in the campaign, I'd say, guys, I'm Jew-ish. Remember, I was raised Catholic. So look, I understand everybody wants to nitpick at me. If Santos thought he was going to get a friendly forum on Tucker Carlson last night, he did not. Credit to Tulsi Gabbard, the former Democratic congresswoman, filling in.

Santos did apologize in another recent interview where he admitted to embellishing, you know, all of his resume. NBC News has reached out to Santos for a statement. Nothing there. If Republicans were to force Santos to resign, it would prompt a special election in the swing district that he flipped, which would be risky for the GOP's very thin House majority. Santos has also pledged to vote for Republican leader Kevin McCarthy for House Speaker. A vote McCarthy will need next week. And Christina Greer seems to me that's the crux of this. We can make fun of George Santos. He's not Jewish. He's Jew-ish. And he basically seems to have made up everything about his past, or just about everything about his past. But there doesn't,

there hasn't been any condemnation from Republican leadership. They have remained silent. It certainly looks like he's on track to take his seat. And that's a large part, it seems to me, because Kevin McCarthy needs to count on his vote. Absolutely, John. I mean, the fact that Republicans will have a lot of hand-wringing, but no punishment at all for George Santos, the fact that they aren't going to really call for his resignation, lets us know that they want that slim majority in the House and with divided government. There won't be many policy positions coming from the Republican Party. It'll be lots of Hunter Biden, lots of Hillary Clinton retreads, but they don't want to risk,

as you said, possibly turning this into a special election and losing what was a Democratic seat before George Santos was narrowly elected just this past November. Hey, Susan Page, Heilman here. You know, as a fellow journalist in longstanding, you have sharp eyes and sharp ears. The thing that I'm noticing right now about Santos is that he's only been in this apology tour for a couple of days, and he's already starting to get a little prickly about it. You hear him say, I've discussed this already, Tulsi, and people can pick at me. It is usually a sign of someone who's trying to dig themselves out of a hole, that they are about to either dig a little deeper or just completely unravel when they, early in the apology tour, start to try to play the victim in the apology tour. That is always,

to me, an early warning sign for candidate implosion ahead. You know, it reminds me of Southwest Airlines, right? Crisis management has a few basic rules. And the first is say you're sorry, make it right, promise it won't happen again. And I'm not sure either of these entities, either this congressman-elect or the airline, has fully digested what it is they need to do to get right with their customers or their voters. Now, maybe he's got some time to do that. It's hard to force a member of Congress to resign if he or she doesn't want to. House Republicans have been pretty tolerant of questionable behavior by their members, including those who participated in the January 6th

assault on our democracy. So I would not hold my breath waiting for something to happen to force George Santos out. But I will say it is hard to remember another new member of Congress who has had a rockier start than he has. Before the burglars have taken the seat officially. I mean, this guy's... Yeah, he's already considered at risk next time around. Seriously. I mean, Katty, I mean, George Santos, of course, is responsible for his own lies, but there's plenty of fault to go around. And yes, I mean, Democratic opposition efforts should be blamed for missing this. Some of the media should be blamed for missing this. But right now, it seems like a lot of this should be falling squarely on Republicans in power who should be blamed for turning a blind eye. There's some reports that some of them even knew a little bit about this before it exploded into public view

in the last week. They certainly know about it now and they're remaining silent. Yeah, I mean, it's exposed a bunch of flaws in the system, hasn't it? Why wasn't this uncovered when he was during the campaign? Why is it so difficult, in fact, impossible to get rid of somebody who has run under false pretenses? I mean, you know, he has a bunch of people who voted for him in Long Island who may have liked the fact that he had a financial background. They may have liked the fact that he went to Baruch and had this bachelor's degree from there. They may have liked the fact that he was Jewish. That might be the reasons they voted for him. And now actually those reasons are null and void. And yet there is still no mechanism for getting rid of this person because he ran on basically a lie. I mean,

I think we are in an era where lying in politics has become OK, increasingly so over the last few years. And this is the latest indication of that. And there doesn't seem to be very much that the voting public can do about it. And I think that is something, perhaps the bigger issue of what we should be looking at here. He will get in because, as you say, Kevin McCarthy wants his vote. And that's purely cynical. He wants him there. And so he'll seat him. And then let's see if there is some kind of ethics investigation into him. Talking of investigations, the House Select Committee investigating January the 6th has released another new batch of interview transcripts. The latest documents include former White House aide Cassidy Hutchinson's remaining testimony. According to those transcripts, Hutchinson told the committee she saw former White House Chief of Staff Mark Meadows burning documents in his office fireplace

about a dozen times between December of 2020 and January of 2021. Politico had previously reported that Meadows had burned papers in his office after a meeting with a Republican congressman, Scott Perry, who was working to challenge the 2020 election results. The committee also released the transcript of former Labor Secretary Eugene Scalia. According to his transcript, Scalia told the committee he called former Attorney General Bill Barr shortly after the January 6th Capitol attack, and Barr advised him to resign from the Trump administration. Barr had already stepped down from his post in December of 2020. When asked why he declined to take Barr's advice, Scalia told the committee

he thought that trying to work within the administration to steady the ship would have greater value than resigning, something we've heard many times before. Now, joining us on these political investigations, reporter for The Guardian, Hugo Lowell. Hugo, what struck you most about, we'd seen a lot of Cassidy Hutchinson's transcripts before, of course, what struck you most about – we'd seen a lot of Cassidy Hutchinson's transcripts before, of course. What struck you most about what you heard from these transcripts that were released yesterday? Yeah, no, I thought the Hutchinson transcripts were particularly interesting. These are from the summer. You know, previously we got the transcripts from September.

And I think three things stood out to me. First of all is, as you say, the fact that Meadows was burning documents in his fireplace. Now, Hutchinson couldn't elaborate or confirm any of the details of the kinds of documents he was burning. And I'm not sure that's something even the DOJ can probably corroborate. But it is interesting when you think about the timing. Hutchinson testified that certainly one of the instances in which Meadows was burning these documents was when Perry was actually in the chief of staff's office. You know, they were talking about election issues. They were talking about the vice president's role on January 6th. And certainly, if you're looking for circumstantial evidence, that seems to be

very damning. I mean, two other things that stood out to me was that Hutchinson was in the room for part of Trump's call to Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger. And she seemed to notice how the White House counsels were quite concerned after that call. And as we have seen, since found out, you know, DOJ is investigating that call. The Georgia district attorney is investigating that call. And one of the concerns for the White House counsels was exactly what was being discussed. So I thought that was a really big deal. Hey, Hugo, just sticking with you here for a second. As you think about all these transcripts that have come out over the course of the last almost a week, and there's still more to come.

So far, what do you think the revelation is that you've seen in these transcripts that has been the most material, not just the most entertaining or the most titill in these transcripts that has been the most material, not just the most entertaining or the most titillating, but something that's been material potentially to the DOJ's investigations going forward? And what are the transcripts that are outstanding that you're most looking forward to getting your hands on in the weeks ahead? To me, you know, having looked at this investigation for 16 months, you know, I've covered January 6th since the start of the Slack Committee's investigation. What has been really interesting has been what the committee couldn't get and what witnesses were reluctant to talk about.

And if you go through the transcripts, even the latest that came out yesterday, there are various hints and various moments when witnesses become really resistant to talking about certain events. For instance, Ali Alexander, who is seen as this kind of key linchpin among several of the January 6th Valley organizers because he had connections to Roger Stone, he had connections to Proud Boys, who in turn had connections to Earth Keepers and those groups still in the Capitol. There is a text that Alexander sends on January 5th when he says he says Trump at the end of his speech is going to order us to go to the Capitol. He could not apparently remember how he came to learn of that investigation. If I'm the Justice Department and I'm trying to figure out exactly how the thread unravels, that's what I want to get. I want to get Alexander in front of the grand jury. I want to probe him on how he came to have that knowledge and why he will serve a lot of the public.

Political investigations reporter for The Guardian, Hugo Lowell. Thank you, as always. It's always terrific reporting you bring to the table. Susan Page, one of the rules of politics I find is that if you're spotted burning documents, probably not great. But I want to tell you, if you could take it to a broader point here, we've documented extensively just how bad the Trump 2024 campaign has begun. Seemingly a terrible headline every day. And we see his poll numbers slip. More and more Republicans wondering if the party should go another direction. What do you think?

The ongoing drips and drabs of the January 6th stuff, as much as that is a baked in issue for a lot of hardcore republicans those who have been willing to give trump a try on certain things if it's just one revelation after another don't you think this contributes to a trump fatigue that may cause some to want to look elsewhere yeah we've seen that uh already in some of the in some of the polling now of course, let's not underestimate Donald Trump once again, as we have in the past. He has real political skills. He's demonstrated that. He has a core support that any politician would like to have. And yet we see an appetite among some of those core supporters for someone who would pursue

Trump policies, but not be Trump. And I think that it helps explain the appeal of Ron DeSantos in Florida. You know, he's not particularly well known for all the details across the country. He's not somebody who's been vetted yet politically. But we see in our poll this month that by double digits, Republicans tell us they would like Ron DeSantos over Donald Trump as their nominee next time around. So I think there is some Trump fatigue. And boy, if you think there's fatigue from the issuance of a congressional report that Donald Trump has portrayed as a political witch hunt, wait until and if we see indictments come from the Department of Justice

investigation. So, Christina, you're a professor and we are so close to this with a day in and day out revelations. But I wanted to see if you could fast forward a bit. And 10 years from now, you're teaching a class about this moment in January 6th in particular. From that perspective, from the lens of history, how do you tell your students about what we're seeing day in and day out, something so unprecedented in the history of the presidency? Oh gosh, Jonathan. Yeah, it's been a heavy lift for the last few years. I think we have to back up. I always start with the intention of the framers, why it is that Article 1 is the legislative branch and Article 2 is the executive branch. And not until Article 3 do we have the judicial branch. There's supposed to be three equal branches.

Yet there's a reason why the framers started with these complex conversations about the legislative branch. And I think we're going to have to really look at how parties have behaved in this moment. There are still so many sitting Republican members of Congress who supported the insurrection of January 6th. They supported these riots at our Capitol and they supported the behavior of the former president, Donald Trump. And so as I walk through this in 10 years,

I'm going to have to lay out the intent of the framers, what we thought was, you know, sort of the most egregious attack on our democracy during Watergate with Richard Nixon. And then fast forward to this moment in January 6th. And I'm sure there are questions as to why it is that so many Americans were fine with swastikas being flown in the Capitol, Confederate flags being flown in the Capitol, Confederate flags being flown in the Capitol. They're going to ask questions as to why weren't these people arrested en masse? What would it have looked like if these people were African American or Latinos or Muslims?

Why is it that these men were able to, men and women, excuse me, were able to just go back to their homes once they, you know, killed police officers or threatened other law enforcement. I mean, I don't think that half of this country fully understands just how close we came to losing the democratic principles that we rely on so severely. And so the next decade, I can't foresee the future, but I know that this is going to be a unit where we're going to have to spend, I'm going to have to spend some time really walking them through how close we came to losing our democracy. And the fact that a president was at the helm at the time that was aiding and abetting these insurrectionists.

I think that, you know, my students right now are scratching their heads. And I know that in the future, they're going to be very confused as to how this was able to happen. Yeah, it's going to trigger some real questions among your students and may not like all of the answers. Christina Greer, thank you so much for joining us this morning. Still ahead here on Morning Joe, the Supreme Court keeps in place the pandemic era immigration policy known as Title 42. We'll dig into what that decision means for the migrant crisis at the southern border. Plus, we'll get a live report from the overwhelmed city of El Paso. And we'll hear from Congressman Henry Cuéllar, whose Texas district covers about 200 miles of the U.S.-Mexico border.

You're watching Morning Joe, and we'll be right back. Why the tears roll down? Because it's the world I know. Oh, it's the world I know. Yeah, I want the fun. Coast 330. Wow, that's early on the West Coast. The House Ways and Means Committee is planning to release six years worth of former President Trump's tax returns this Friday. The committee voted along party lines last week to make the tax returns public.

Since then, staffers have been working to redact any sensitive personal information, such as Social security numbers, from those documents. The 39-page report released last week by the Joint Committee on Taxation showed Trump paid only $750 in both 2016 and 2017 and paid nothing at all in 2020. That is one way to do your tax returns. An Arizona judge has rejected Governor-elect Katie Hobbs' request to sanction defeated Republican gubernatorial candidate Carrie Lake. Lake filed a lawsuit alleging voter fraud in the state's election, despite a lack of evidence, which was rejected over the weekend. Hobbs and lawyers for Maricopa County sought sanctions in response to that lawsuit, which they called groundless.

The judge disagreed, saying that while Lake failed to meet the burden of proof in her own lawsuit, it doesn't equate to her claims being, quote, groundless and presented in bad faith. Meanwhile, a federal judge has sentenced a Michigan man to 16 years in prison for his role in plotting to kidnap Governor Gretchen Whitmer. 39-year-old Adam Fox was convicted of conspiracy to commit kidnapping back in August. Prosecutors had asked for a life sentence, arguing he was part of a violent extremist movement. At trials earlier this year, prosecutors showed recordings and posts of Fox calling the governor a tyrant and railing against her COVID-19 restrictions. In court documents, an attorney for Fox wrote in part,

Adam Fox was an unemployed vacuum repairman who was venting his frustrations on social media, but abiding by the laws of the state of Michigan, indicated that his client would appeal the conviction. We'll see how that goes. Coming up, the latest from the war in Ukraine as fighting intensifies in the eastern part of the country. Russia fortifying its front lines as Ukrainian forces try to recapture key cities seized during the invasion. And all of that as the Kremlin leverages its oil supply with a ban on exports to countries that support Western sanctions. Morning Joe, we'll be right back. Welcome back. The Vatican is asking for prayers for retired Pope Benedict XVI,

saying his health has worsened in the last few hours. The statement was issued early this morning. The Vatican says that Pope Francis went to visit his 95-year-old predecessor, who lives in a monastery on the grounds of the Vatican. In 2013, Benedict became the first pope to retire in 600 years. We will be following his health and bring you any updates. Meanwhile, Russian President Vladimir Putin has issued an executive order banning Russian oil exports to any countries that agree to the Western price cap that was put in place earlier this month. According to the Kremlin's order, the ban will start on February 1st and will remain in effect until July.

The rules, imposed by G7 nations and the European Union, cap Russian oil at $60 a barrel. Nations that sell Russian oil above the price cap can lose access to essential services for oil shipments across international waters. That comes as heavy fighting has reintensified in eastern Ukraine, with Russia deploying more tanks and armored vehicles to the front lines. Ukraine officials say Russian forces have ramped up bombing on the city of Kherson. At least 33 rockets were reportedly fired within 24 hours on civilian targets, including a maternity hospital. This comes as Russia pushes in on the city of Bakhmut, while Ukraine works to retake parts of the Luhansk region that Moscow seized after it invaded. Joining us now, former spokesperson for the U.S. mission to the United Nations,

Higar Shamali. He works also at the NSC and the Treasury Department. Higar, thanks so much for being here. Let's start just there, your reaction to where things stand. We had President Zelensky in Washington last week to mark the 300th day of this conflict, which, though fighting has picked up on the front lines, had largely turned into almost Russia terror strikes on civilian targets. Where do you think things stand here as winter really settles in and makes some of the fighting really difficult? Well, you know, you hit the nail on the head when you said terror strikes, because the Russians are bombarding across Ukraine, the infrastructure in particular,

leaving Ukraine cold and dark. And it's a part of an effort to demoralize Ukrainians, but it hasn't demoralized them. Now, it's a difficult tactic because for Ukraine, while they are very, they're engaged, the military remains strong, they are still pushing back and Russia continues to retreat. Russia is responding by more bombardments. And if you look at the long term, and that's what I always like to do, look at it from the 60,000 foot level, the fact is that it's not sustainable. All of this kind of abuse and torture. And also, by the way, how much support the United States and Europeans can continue to give Ukraine when it comes to their military. I heard you just called something cold and dark.

I was thought you were talking about Ukraine, talking about Lamira's soul. That's a tough comparison, Kyle. I think you were talking about Ukraine under Russian assault. So I totally agree. I think the common sense view of it's unsustainable. This can't go on. But both sides are dug in. And given where Ukraine's non-negotiables are, given where Russia's non-negotiables are, I asked Richard Haass yesterday on the show what he thought. He said years this could go on. It might not be sustainable, but it could go on for years in a kind of ugly stalemate. Do you see some other way out?

No. So it could go on for years easily. And a lot of conflicts like this do drag on for years, especially when the international community doesn't pressure enough to move the sides to the negotiating table. I handled Syria at the White House the first two years of the Syria crisis. And I'm a big believer that letting any kinds of wars of this kind drag on this way only risks escalation, spreading further atrocities. These atrocities are horrific that are happening in

Ukraine, and they could only get worse. There are a lot of tools in Russia's toolbox they haven't used yet. They haven't used tactical nuclear weapons. They haven't used biochemical weapons. They have been, a report I just saw in the Washington Post, they have abducted 11,000 children from Ukraine to ship them to Russia to brainwash them. It's an attempted ethnic cleansing, right? So this could get even worse. Something that when I handled Syria, we said, no, it can't get worse. And it did. And so the thing that I would say to that is that, yes, it could go on for years. But we have, we with our international partners, really have to lay the pressure on when it

comes to compromise. And nobody likes to hear that word. But all wars end in a peace deal. And if they don't, they drag on in perpetuity, kind of like North and South Korea. And you don't want that in a situation like this, especially when you're dealing with Russia and a democracy. So Ukraine laid out some terms for potential peace summit that seem like non-starters. The Russians aren't even invited to what they're suggesting would happen in February at the

UN. But let's talk about the economics of this. We just mentioned the oil cap and Russia's response. They have managed, though, because of deals with other neighboring countries, India, China, etc., to keep that war machine well funded. Yes. So when the oil sanctions were imposed on Russia's oil, there was a lot of hope that that would be that would be not a silver bullet, but that would really hit them hard. And it hit a little bit, as it did a lot of the most successful sanctions regimes like those against Iran. It's the oil sanctions that brought Iran to the negotiating table. But in this instance, Russia was very quickly able to sell its oil to China and India and Turkey at a discounted price.

And they continue to do that. Now, they're selling that oil between $65 and $75 a barrel. So, when the G7 came up with this $60 a barrel price cap, the idea was that it be at a price that's lower than what they're getting it for, but high enough where they're incentivized to continue producing it so that the oil remains on the market to help stabilize oil prices around the world. Is it going to work? You know, so far it hasn't shown. There's been a push and pull. There have been some signs that it's of countries willing to look into this that aren't part of the G7. But without something threatening them, like secondary sanctions, which is how the Iran oil sanctions worked, then they're not that incentivized to stick to this rule. India is only importing more and more as the weeks go on. So. Haga, you mentioned how Russia still has a lot of tools in its toolbox

militarily and things it hasn't used yet, the biochemicals, the nukes, etc. But there is an indication that it is feeling stretched in the region. When you look at what is happening in Azerbaijan, where the Azerbaijanis have blockaded a road that would disrupt Russia from its ally, disconnect Russia from its ally, Armenia, and the Russians don't seem to be able to do anything about it. It looks like you have countries around the region thinking, hold on a second, Russia is distracted. They've only got enough resources to be meddling in Ukraine. Perhaps we can get away with doing something we wanted to do, which normally we wouldn't be able to do if Russia wasn't in Ukraine at the moment. Katya, I'm so glad you raised this issue because it's a really important crisis we need to keep an eye on. So first, Azerbaijan is pursuing this provocation now because of the Russia-Ukraine

conflict. They're doing it because Russia is distracted by the Ukraine war. They are not going to come to the defense of Armenia, their Russian ally. They are probably inspired watching a dictator attack its democratic neighbor. And in general, the Russian peacekeepers are also weakened and they're not being, they're not tasked, they're not fulfilling their task of keeping that corridor open and protecting the Armenian held areas there. This crisis highlights that Russia's role as a power broker in that region is weakened. And it also, by the way, highlights how Russia's own allies are turning against Russia. So, for example, the Armenian prime minister said that they're questioning now Russia's role as peacekeepers in the region. The thing, why this matters so much,

by the way, aside from the fact that it's causing a humanitarian crisis and that it could reignite violence there, is the fact that we in the United States give millions in aid to Azerbaijan's military. Now, it's for different reasons. It's to secure the border with Iran and for counterterrorism purposes. But the fact is that when you give security aid to a wealthy country like Azerbaijan, it's going to free up the budget to use their weapons and other military on other nefarious behavior, like offensive actions towards Armenians and Armenia. Yeah, and certainly it seems like the Kremlin was worried about their projection of influence in the region.

Putin more and more out there. We're seeing him suddenly after weeks in hiding, though noteworthy. He traveled to Belarus as opposed to having the president come to him. Perhaps another sign of how things have changed a little bit in the area. Hagar, Kamali, Jamali, thank you so much for joining us this morning. We greatly appreciate it. Still ahead, what Americans say they want in a quote, perfect president. We'll dig into some interesting new numbers from USA Today. Plus, there is growing concern this morning over the health of Miami Dolphins quarterback Tua Tagovailoa amid criticism

over the handling of the player's head injuries. We'll have the latest on the concussion controversy in the NFL next on Morning Joe. Welcome back. Nine minutes before the hour, Reagan National Airport. I hope Southwest doesn't fly out of there. Susan Page, our friend, the Washington bureau chief at USA Today, brings with her an interesting poll this morning from USA Today and Suffolk University. What Americans want in a so-called perfect president. We're going to go through some of this now. And Susan, we've seen in recent elections,

candidates for the first to be the first female president of the United States. We also have right now our incumbent president just turned 80. He's already the oldest president ever to serve. And certainly there's an expectation he will seek another term where he could be 86 at the end of it. So what is your poll showing us about how Americans feel about candidates' gender and age? So, first of all, let's specify that you don't, it's not like ordering a car. You can't actually specify everything you want in a presidential candidate. But you do see some red flags, maybe, for Joe Biden, for instance. We ask a thousand people, what's the ideal age for a

president? Four people said 80 or older. So that is not a very big base for going to our elders for the presidential. I wonder how many had the last in the White House. People people really like when you think about age, people are thinking middle age is the right time. Fifty one to sixty five younger people, people who are under thirty five preferred people who were a little younger, thirty five to fifty. But that is really the sweet spot when it comes to age. When it comes to gender, 55 percent of Americans volunteered that gender doesn't matter. That would be news to Hillary Clinton and some other women who have run for president. But anyway, that's what people said.

But when you talk to Republicans, 50 percent of Republicans say, I prefer a male president. Only two percent of Republicans prefer a female president. That is a I think presents a challenge for somebody like, say, Nikki Haley. Susan, there's a there, as you said a second ago, you can't just dial up the candidate. You can't build your Frankenstein monster. But then what you're pointing at there is a little bit of something about the nature of these kinds of polls, that they're kind of abstract. You're asking people to imagine. We know about presidential politics is you see the candidate. You're for this candidate or that candidate, not for just a set of attributes. And I think one of the things that highlights this, or maybe doesn't,

but I'm curious about what you think about both these questions. The poll asks about business experience. Would your ideal president be a business person, yes or no? 56% of people say yes. Oh, the ideal president would be a business person. And then the second is service experience. Ideal president have served in the military, yes or no? 46% say yes. Okay, as far as I know, Susan, you'll correct me, you're a better student of the presidency than I am. When's the last time we've had a business person president? And I think the last president we've had who's had military service would be George Herbert Walker Bush. So that's more than 30 years ago. So are people just saying these things as attributes they like? Or is this a market opportunity for someone to come forward who actually, voters would really love to see someone with these attributes, but they just

haven't had a chance to vote for him? Well, I would say Donald Trump would portray himself as a business person, somebody with a business background who got elected president. I know you've forgotten about him because it was so long ago, but but he would. But but but sure, people look at the mix of traits when they're trying to decide who they want to vote for. We found some partisan disparities. You know, Republicans are much more likely to want someone who had business experience. Democrats were a little more leery of that. And we found that Democrats like senators and Republicans like governors when you're talking about their political experience.

And we think this must mean because Republicans are kind of famously skeptical of all things Washington, that that's why they prefer governors over senators. Governors do pretty well, though. And I guess we found that in our politics that at least when it comes to getting the nomination, being a governor has been a pretty good trait for contenders. Suzanne, I'll just say I did not forget about Donald Trump, but I put him in the category of reality television star and grifter, not business person. So I just didn't think that that necessarily applied to him. I'm just kind of glad that the idea that some sort of experience is back in favor again. You've got on compromise, a majority of people for compromise rather than standing on principle. That doesn't surprise me that much, Susan. But I want to dig into this gender question that you had, because 55 percent of Americans say that it doesn't matter what gender the president is.

But of those who do care what the gender the president would be, more than two to one, they still prefer a man. That's right. I think that there is still. Yeah, I think there's still a predisposition to think of the Oval Office as as male territory. We've never had a female president. And for a lot of Americans, that's just fine with them. But you know where you find the the the least the least predisposition to having a male president and the more sense of the gender doesn't matter. That's with young people, with voters under 35, a plurality say, no, a majority say, doesn't matter to me, volunteered that. That was the highest of all the age group and of many of the other demographic categories. It's young people who are the least inclined to say that gender matters when it comes to the presidency. One other thing that younger people are predisposed to is to want an independent for president. A plurality

of voters under 35 would like someone who is not a member of either political party. Now, that may not be realistic, but it just showed the potential for a third party or for more independent minded candidates down the road as these voters get older. Fascinating stuff. One more answer here was, what region would your ideal president come from? The vast majority of surveyed say it doesn't matter, though the heartland has an advantage over the rest of the country. West Coast last. John Hellman, put your dreams on hold.

Susan Page, thank you so much for joining us this morning.