Morning Joe - Morning Joe 1/23/24

Episode Date: January 23, 2024

Trump aims for second GOP win, Haley hopes for an upset

A very, very tough man, Viktor Orban. Have you ever heard of him? He's the prime minister of Hungary. Right, good. Prime minister of Hungary. And he's a tough man, strong man, very respected. I happen to think he's a good man. The press goes crazy when I say it.

We can't have a weak president. We have a weak man who cheats like hell. That's the only thing they're good at. They cheat at elections like nobody's ever cheated before. I've seen shots that you wouldn't even believe. Missile launched. They go, missile launched. And you hear a bell go. I mean, I see this. It's so incredible. They calmly walk to a seat. Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. They've only got 17 seconds to figure this whole thing out, right? Boom. Okay. Missile launch. And we don't have

it here. I really, I take back. I don't know where it began. I take everything back that I said about Elvis in 1977. I apologize to the ghost of Fat Elvis right here. And now

he looks better than Donald Trump. Or Bon. No, I know. But I mean, I'm just so distracted. He looked first of all, we go back to what was said over the weekend on X that if if he keeps putting the bronzer on, if he keeps putting the bronzer on at this level white supremacists will soon turn on him and the sweat listen willie willie elvis at the sands in 77 nothing like this and you know all he needs to do is sing my way and get the uh and get the scarves and like put him across his neck and throw them into the crowd there. Except, I gotta say,

Willie, you know, you and I... Willie's in New Hampshire, by the way. He's in New Hampshire. Willie and I first started going up to New Hampshire for the Joe and Willie, Willie and Joe, actually, up there. It's called the Willie and Joe snowplow race. We've been gone since 52.

It's snow angel competition. No, since 52. And so one of us had to go. We drew straws. Willie won. But Willie, I got to say since 52, certainly not since ought four. Have we seen anything like this? What was that that we just saw?

First of all, we're still doing the snowplow race. Barnacle is driving the other one in this case. It's just it's kind of a rascal that he drives along and he still won. Yeah, exactly. You know, I had not seen that clip. We've been up here going around doing events and all kinds of things. I had not seen that clip. And so I think you probably saw the reaction on my face. I mean, that is that's the guy who was commander in chief and wants to be it again,

describing those missile launches, sensitive moments as bing, bong, boom and all the noises that he makes. And I think you're right at this point. It's an insult to Elvis, to late Elvis, even though he was sitting at the piano, having someone hold the microphone for him as he had a Coca-Cola on the piano with him. I mean, this is a guy, again, who's who one of the core arguments against the guy he's running against Joe Biden is that he's too old. He doesn't have it together. Frankly, we heard it again last night from Nikki Haley about Joe Biden and about Donald Trump a little bit, too. But you just can't make that argument and perform the way he's been performing, particularly just in the last few weeks. I think it's been getting worse over time. But if you, again, sit and watch an entire Trump event.

And watch that. That is not a man who has it all together. It's just not now. And the thing is, as Charlie Sykes said on way too early, which, by the way, I don't know if you saw, Willie. I mean, way too early. Ended up in second place in ratings right behind last week, right behind. Did you see the Bills Chiefs game? Oh, my God. 40 million viewers. 40 million viewers.

Of course, way too early with a mere 39.78. Right there. 40 million viewers, of course, way too early with the mirror, 39.78. Right there. But one of the – I mean, the NFL, we've talked about this for quite some time, and I'm not exactly sure when this happened, but the NFL now is – it really is where the global village comes together in the United States. I mean, that was a term, by the way, freaks that think that this is like New World Order. That's a term from the 50s on communication. But sort of this global village comes together around NFL games,

19 of the top 20 primetime shows last season, NFL games, 82 out of 100 overall NFL games. And, of course, three or four years ago, we heard freaks going, NFL's done, I'm never watching another game. overall NFL games. And, of course, three or four years ago, we heard freaks going, the NFL's done, I'm never watching another game. We've got Colin Kaepernick. And now, I mean, you look at this, 40 million people. The NFL, like way too early with Jonathan O'Meara, brings America together. But it's pretty crazy.

That is a staggering, staggering number. And you're right. In the time when everyone's talking about the splintering of media, the death of network television, there is actually one last place you can put up a number like that where people will come and watch it certainly helped that it was that game the chiefs the bills a long time rivalry mix in a little taylor swift doesn't hurt the ratings either but man we've seen it that's a huge number but we've seen it all year in the last couple of years actually where on sundays at least even though we're all watching different streaming But, man, we've seen it. That's a huge number. But we've seen it all year in the last couple of years, actually, where on Sundays at least, even though we're all watching different streaming networks

and different cable channels and everything else, when an NFL game is on, particularly a big NFL game, America sits down and watches. That was a great game. The Bills are going to lament that for a long time. They had some chances. They had it on their home field. But, man, 40 million people. That just doesn't happen anymore unless it's the NFL.

No, it's really unbelievable. And Jonathan Lemire, again, unless it's NFL or way too early with Jonathan Lemire. The thing I heard you talking about this morning, which I'm sure, again, 38, 39 million people probably tuned in to see was the fact that the Biden campaign. And this is what's so critical. The Biden campaign, which is supposed to be, you know, out of tides. The old man doesn't know what he's doing. They actually they've seized the zeitgeist. They understand. They understand now. And they're turning it out quickly that Donald Trump says something stupid. It's up online like 15 seconds later. It's on TikTok. It's on YouTube. It's on X. It's on Instagram reels. I mean, we've been seeing this

over the last week, just how quickly they're moving on Trump. And I've got to say, I think this is why Trump got away with this in the past, because all of his opponents were flat footed. And maybe even the Biden campaign in 2020 didn't have to do this as much as they're doing in 2024. But there you can sense is a real understanding. Donald Trump loses his mind, forgets what he's saying, confuses Barack Obama with Joe Biden, confuses World War II with whatever the hell he was confusing, confuses Nikki Haley with Nancy Pelosi. The whole world's going to see in three seconds,

and they're going to see in three seconds because they're on him. Now you talk about a tight man to man defense. I mean, you cover the White House. What's happened over the past week or two? I mean, because they are really there. The rapid response has to be driving Donald Trump crazy. Yeah. First, on the way to early ratings, we had hoped Taylor Swift could show up to give us that boost, too. That hasn't happened. Yeah. First on the way to early ratings, we had hoped Taylor Swift could show up to give us that boost, too. That hasn't happened. Exactly. A shirtless Kelsey brother, we do think is possible. We could get a shirtless Kelsey brother to hang out here at 5 a.m. We feel pretty good about that. Maybe he can do weather. Maybe he can jump from the down and do

weather. Beer in one hand, forecast in the other. As far as the Biden campaign, first of all, we do expect that barring a real upset in New Hampshire tonight that would allow Nikki Haley to really propel this race forward. If it is indeed Donald Trump's nomination, this is the race the Biden campaign has always wanted. They feel like they best match up to Trump, who they can pose as an existential threat to the nation's democracy, but also allows them to have some defense against what is President Biden's greatest vulnerability per polling, which is his age. Because Donald Trump, only a few years younger, and as you just mentioned, the verbal gaffes and the missteps and the incoherence, the flat-out

incoherence from Trump has only accelerated and the Biden team is pouncing. In fact, let's take a look at some of their recent rapid responses. So we have a policy remain in Mexico. Now, you know, you don't have to be a total genius. Remain in Mexico until you've added everything. We can be energy independent and even energy dominant. Yes. Oh, yes.

And quickly, says President Trump, we will be there very quickly. This is some strong third person work there by Donald Trump. Also, the QAnon theme continues to play behind him as he speaks. But the Biden campaign, we we've Joe, we've talked about it. We noted it in real time. It's been a couple of months now. They pivoted and they've gone on the attack and they've missed no opportunity to draw contrasts between their candidate and Donald Trump, who they fully expect to see in November. And in recent days, they're hammering Trump on these questions about his mental state.

And it is clear, as we've been talking, certainly on the conservative media, have been talking about Joe Biden's fitness for office for a long time. But right now, it is Donald Trump's turn to face those questions. And that includes from Nikki Haley. I've got to say, too, you've got to question the Trump supporters about their incoherence, Willie Geist, on how to win an election. Again, this guy, he's lost in 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23. He's going to lose in 24 again if Democrats work hard, if they go out and do their jobs, if everybody that's so concerned about democracy and freedom go out and do their jobs. Willie, they're going to lose

again, but they have a choice. They have a choice. Nikki Haley, you put Nikki Haley up against Joe Biden. I mean, Biden doesn't want that. Biden seemed didn't even want Ron DeSantis because they understood it was something new. There wasn't all the Trump baggage and there wasn't the Trump craziness. There weren't things that were going to scare off. I mean, yeah, yeah, I know DeSantis made a huge mistake by going way too like red hot on social issues. You did the six weeks and everything else. But before that, they're like, oh, this guy can win the Atlanta suburbs. This guy can win the Philly suburbs. They know Trump can't.

They look at the polls now and they literally, they literally laugh and say, come talk to us, you know, next September, next October. But Trump's voters, as well as Republicans in New Hampshire and Iowa, it looks like they're going to make the same mistake and lose again. They've lost, as Nikki Haley points out, seven Republicans, seven of the last eight popular votes. Go back to Bill Clinton.

They've won seven of eight presidential popular votes. The Democrats have only W won in 2004. And they're going down. They're they're they're going down this loser's path again. And they just can't stop themselves. I mean, I feel like there has to be an intervention at some point, because at some point, Republicans probably need to start winning elections again by pushing Donald Trump to the side. But they can't do it. And you were. Look at this. Look at this. Ninety two Republicans lost. Ninety six Republicans lost. Two thousand Republicans lost a popular vote.

They won. Oh, four. They lost 0-8. They lost in 12. They lost in 16. They lost in 20. You know, after a while, Willie, that starts adding up. After a while, you would think, maybe we need to find somebody that can relate to the majority of Americans. And then maybe then maybe you have a chance to start winning presidential contests again. But you went to a Nikki Haley event last night. I mean, does it look like they're going to change their tune? It's funny, Joe, going to that event last night down in Salem, about 30 minutes south of where we are in Manchester. Governor Sununu, who took the stage first, sounded like he'd been watching Joe Scarborough. He stood up there

and started ticking off the years, 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020, and went on. We lose every year. We lose every year. And what do those years have in common? The governor says, Donald Trump. So do you guys want to win? And the intervention you just talked about on paper, at least, is tonight here. They feel like the Haley campaign. Now you really do have a choice. Do you want to push forward with Donald Trump? Is that the future of the country? Is that the future of this party? Or do you want to make a change? Do you want to drop the chaos? As she puts it very generously, she says chaos seems to follow Donald Trump. But they think this is it. And I think a lot of people in this party think this is it. The feeling here isn't necessarily that she's going to win. But this is a chance right now, tonight, in just a couple of hours now, when the polls open, to make that choice and to say we've had enough of

Donald Trump. Will that happen? It remains to be seen. John Howman joins me now. Here, John, we were just talking before we got started here. Just to share with our viewers, it just feels different here this time than it's felt probably ever, which is to say it's not much of a race. It's not that close. If you look at the polling, there are only two candidates left. That energy, that life that you usually feel in New Hampshire. Nikki Haley had an overflow crowd last night. She makes her stump speech, doesn't particularly go strong after Donald Trump makes a few comments about chaos following him. But

there is a feeling that's sort of hanging over this place and really this whole campaign that this is it. And if Donald Trump beats her and beats her soundly tonight, he's the nominee. Yeah, well, for sure. And, you know, you guys picked up on this already. There's a feeling up here. It's like a Potemkin primary. It's like you're kind of like there's not that there's a flaccid, lifeless there's and there's just, you know, not that much going on. I mean, the truth is Trump shows up. There's one event every day comes here for a rally. Other than that, Nikki Haley's out doing events. But you guys have been we've all been up here for a lot of New Hampshire primaries. It's nothing like that. Having said that, you know, you'd think that the stakes, it's a one-on-one race now. And this is a state, as you know, that has been very

hospitable to insurgent candidates over the years. The outsider candidate who comes in, the challenger, and takes on the establishment front runner. Hard to think of Donald Trump as an establishment front runner, but that's what he is now. He is the Republican Party. And I guess what we learned, and I'm going to show you what I've been doing the last few days here following Nikki Haley and doing a piece on this last kind of a home stretch of the race. You see Nikki Haley, not John McCain. You know, she does not have that John McCain thing. She's not tackled New Hampshire in that way. At the same time, there's no doubt that everyone feels like she got she started to find her footing a little bit in these last 72 hours. And the big question that everyone keeps asking those who really want to win.

There's plenty of mainstream Republican New Hampshireites who are like they're praying for this. They understand the stakes. Their big question is, is it going to be enough? So let's take a look. Peterborough, New Hampshire, just like I pictured it. The New Hampshire primary occupies a hallowed place in presidential politics, steeped in tradition, replete with romance, from the rolling hills and snow-swept vistas to town hall meetings in places like Peterborough, stocked with cantankerous voters. Can you look right over here? I mean, there are some senior citizens here.

Voters who, time and again, have handed improbable victories to insurgent candidates on both the Democratic side of the aisle. Thank you, New Hampshire. I love New Hampshire. New Hampshire tonight has made Bill Clinton the comeback kid. And the Republican side of the aisle. I think we finally have a poll without a margin of error. Mount up everybody and ride to the sound of the gun. New Hampshire.

I'm here a lot. And then all of a sudden we started getting numbers in and everyone said, how come they like Trump so much? Question for the ages, but whatever the answer, Trump was the insurgent in New Hampshire in 2016, aiming to topple the GOP's established order. But today, Trump is the GOP and the field of contenders to upend him has been reduced to just one. Nikki Haley, roundly mocked for declaring, I can safely say, tonight, Iowa made this Republican primary a two-person race. After finishing third behind Ron DeSantis, only to be proven prescient six days later, when DeSantis ended his campaign in a manner as hapless, helpless, and hopeless as he'd run it

all along. Greetings from Florida. With DeSantis first a dead man walking and then simply a dead man, Haley effectively had Trump one-on-one for the eight-day sprint to New Hampshire. But Haley promptly announced that she wouldn't take part in the upcoming ABC News WMUR TV debate at Manchester's St. Ansel College, unless Trump did so too, stunning the state's political insiders. Between Iowa and New Hampshire, there's so many days. Where are the pivot points? 90 minutes on WMUR-TV. Our statewide television station is a pivot point. It's a chance for candidates to move. I would have not only done the debate, I would have done three or four debates. I would have bought my own hour of time. I would have given New Hampshire what it craves,

a moment to make history. Haley didn't do much last week with the maverick feel of Murphy's most famous client. No epic town hall meetings, no freewheeling sessions with reporters, a light schedule that looked like a comfortable frontrunner's, not a hungry challenger's. Meanwhile, the actual frontrunners campaign consisted of a phalanx of MAGA surrogates blanketing the state, while Trump parachuted in for one rally per day, devoted mostly to mocking Haley. Nikki Haley is a disaster. She worked for me for a long time. She's not tough enough. She's not smart enough. And she wasn't respected enough. She's a globalist fool.

She is not presidential timber. So if you want a losing candidate who puts America last, vote for Nikki Haley. Then on Friday night in Concord, Trump had another of his increasingly common, increasingly addled moments. The press never report the crowd on January 6th. You know, Nikki Haley, Nikki Haley, Nikki Haley. You know, they do. You know, they destroyedaley, Nikki Haley, Nikki Haley, you know, they do you know, they destroyed all of the information, all of the evidence, everything deleted and destroyed all of it, all of it because of lots of things like Nikki Haley is in charge of security. Haley had long resisted the calls to whack Trump. But the next day, she finally took a swing. He went on and talked about how I

kept the police from going into the Capitol on January 6th. Let's be clear. I wasn't in the Capitol on January 6th. I wasn't in office on January 6th. He mentioned it three times. He got confused. He got confused and said he was running against Obama. He never ran against Obama. And another. My parents are up in age, and I love them dearly. But when you see them hit a certain age, there is a decline. That's a fact.

And still another. He was confused the same way he said Joe Biden was going to start World War II. Haley's broadside sounded like weak beer to Trump's fiercest critics, but they coincided with other changes, more campaign events, more interaction with the press, and at least a modicum of spontaneity on her part that gave Haley's campaign a different vibe in the homestretch. The Boston Globe had a front page story saying the bubble wrap is off. She needed a wake up call and she needed to figure out who she was, how who she was fits into this race.

She found her voice late. And you saw this weekend, crowds responded to it. Even so, all the polls say that none of this will save Haley from a drubbing. I think she's going to have a double digit loss among Republicans, and I'm not sure she's going to win independence. Might just break him even. And that ain't enough to beat Donald Trump. Late stage New Hampshire polling has been wrong before, of course. In 2008, Barack Obama was supposedly up by double digits. But on primary night, it was Hillary Clinton saying. Over the last week, I listened to you.

And in the process, I found my own voice. Even as we sit here today, there are enough votes there to beat Trump here. So where you're left with is who can motivate that group. Finding your voice is the key. I don't think she got there till now, but she got there, and that may be enough. Comparing Hillary Clinton and Nikki Haley? Come on, I hear you saying. And fair enough. But given the sobering reality that this time tomorrow, Donald Trump will likely be the GOP's de facto nominee, don't be surprised if more than a few Republicans, and not just

Republicans, find themselves hoping beyond hope that New Hampshire once again works its magic and that Hillary and Haley turn out to have more in common than meets the eye. And there you have it, Willie Geist. There you have it. A little taste of the circus there. We like that. Yeah, a little circus. We've got that drone up in the air. That's the thing, you know. As long as you get the drone flying up there, It really doesn't matter what we do down on the ground. Joe Mika, you know, we're missing you guys up here. I tried to give you a little flavor of it that you haven't been able to see. That was amazing. Also, guys, part of what strikes you

here, too, is just the how the conventional idea of what it takes to win in a place like this, same as Iowa, has gone out the window, which is to say you've got Governor Sununu on your side. The union leader endorsed you. All those things that used to feel like they meant something could push you over the finish line. The sense here is that it doesn't matter, that Donald Trump presents some other challenge. And the question will be if Nikki Haley does lose and lose by double digits, does she want to continue on to South Carolina, perhaps lose big in her home state and endure, what, three weeks or so of attacks from Donald Trump in her own backyard? We'll see. Well, you know, Willie, you're right.

All of those things usually matter and maybe Trump nullifies it. But I just just to remind Mika and to remind you and to remind all of our viewers that have been with us from the very beginning. It was 16 years ago on this day that Tim Russert, Mike Barnicle, you, Mika and me were sitting around a table and we were all talking about the end of Hillary Clinton's campaign. The New York Post and the Daily News had two scathing front page headlines about all the oldie but goodie, but being done. And then we had Tom Brokaw come on and Tom Brokaw said, I've got an idea. Why don't we let the voters vote? And then we can report on that tomorrow. And it was, you know, we were all like, yeah, that's cute. Yeah, sure. Yeah, let's let the voters vote. The voters voted and all the polls were wildly wrong. They were 10, 11, 12, 13 points off. Say the same thing with John McCain and George W. Bush. That was 24 years ago.

This time tomorrow, I was on the House floor and Republicans that were all supporting George W. Bush just said, how did that happen? And McCain won by what, 18 points? The polls were wildly off. I'm not saying that's going to happen here. I'm just saying if it's going to happen anywhere, it's going to be here. And the last thing, John Heilman, the last thing that we should do, and then to Willie, is to predict what New Hampshire voters are going to do tonight,

because time and time again, they've proven us all wrong. Well, for sure, Joe, and that's part of the reason why you'll hear no predictions from me and heard none in that piece. I think, you know, you go around here, you talk to people who know this state well. You know, we've seen over the course of the last few cycles that polling has become increasingly unreliable everywhere. No one believes these polls in any state anymore. We thought it was a science. It's not really a science. And if there's anywhere that exemplifies that more than anywhere else, it's here.

And it may end up being wish-casting on the part of anti-Trump Republicans. There's a lot of people up here, old-fashioned Republicans who still believe in things like democracy and don't want to have a budding autocrat as the nominee of their party. And they may be wish casting. It's also the fact that people who've been up here have seen, have been surprised a lot of times. And, and so, uh, that's, none of that is predicting any outcome that Nikki Haley, but you know, you just, there's no reason we're going to know soon enough. Everyone's just got to relax about it. Things do not look like, uh, like Nikki, Nikki Haley is going to, to is charged is going to have a big upset win here tonight. But let's just wait and see. Voters are going to start voting.

You know, she won all six of the votes last night in Dixville. There you go. So there you go. But Joe, yes. To your point, Joe, absolutely true. This place loves its role in this process. And this place knows the, how important tonight is. And there is the independent group of voters, the largest group of voters, as we've said a thousand times in this state. If they come out and decide, as Nikki Haley put it to them again last night in her closing argument, this is it, guys. It's a binary choice. It's Donald Trump going back to

that. We all know what that looked like. Or turning the page, stopping Donald Trump right here in New Hampshire. If independent voters come out in big numbers and decide that they want to do that and enough Republicans do, you could have some kind of upset tonight. We will see, though. We will wait and see. Yep. You're exactly you're exactly right. We will say. And by the way, talking about that moment from 2008, I'm always, you know, people will say, hey, what was your favorite time? What do you think the most iconic moments have been over the past 15, 16 years? Of course, other than Willie Ice skating. Yeah. To show how the electoral map worked. Yeah. Other than that,

it's... Can we pull that up? I need to see that. We need to find that. Really? We got to find that. I always think about those two moments in 2008 where Tim Russer burst through Java Joe's front door and came in with the snow howling in behind him and said, hey, do you mind if I come on the show and talk a little bit? And the second, though, was right there in New Hampshire with Barnacle and him and Tom Brokaw and saying, let the voters vote. Just one one day we will know. John Heilman, thank you very much. John, that was great. That was awesome. Still ahead on Morning Joe, The Washington Post, Eugene Robinson joins us to explain why he says when it comes to the end of Ron DeSantis's presidential campaign, quote, the nation's gain is Florida's loss. Plus, a Republican congressman accuses the Biden administration of staging a civil war when it comes to the southern border. Wait, wait, wait. Just hold on. But these people are trying. It's actually these House Republicans that want the chaos, that want the fentanyl to keep coming in, that want the illegal immigrants to keep coming in instead of the best they're going to ever get. Passing what every conservative Republican in the Senate is saying is the toughest bill in 30 years for the southern border.

But they're saying no. They're saying no. So who's declaring civil war? Who's allowing fentanyl deaths to keep going through this year? Who's allowing illegal immigrants to continue to flood over the border instead of doing a deal that will help stop that? It's the House Republicans. Yeah, we'll tell you about the Supreme Court decision that sparked his law-defying comments.

Also ahead, the Dow closed above 38,000 for the first time yesterday. Wait, wait, wait. Hold on. Hold on. I'm confused. I thought, didn't Donald Trump say that the Dow would crash and we'd be in a depression if Joe Biden were president? Well, I think he said he hoped it would. Well, that's his past week. he said he hoped it would. Well, that's his past week. He said he hoped it would crash. Screwed up. But in 2020, he said it was it was going to crash.

You know, but yeah, it's at a record. Do you know what record that broke? Record from like a year or two ago when Joe Biden was president as well. OK, so we're going to show you the rapid response by the Biden campaign on that development. You're watching Morning Joe. We will be right back. There's that rapid response. They're moving. A little bit sad to say goodbye to Ron DeSantis. You know, when I look back on his campaign over the last few months, I think the thing I'll miss most is that infectious smile without you. I can't laugh and I can't sing.

I'm finding it hard to do anything. I can't smile without you. I can't smile without you. I can't laugh and I can't smile without you. I can't laugh and I can't sing. I'm finding it hard to do anything. Wow, look at that. Pure constipation. Such a beauty.

All right, joining us now. Pure constipation. It's such a beauty for TV. All right, joining us now. I mean, I'm telling you, this is this farewell has not been like, let's say, Lou Gehrig's farewell. I mean, it's been it's been it's been tough. Really, really tough. Well-deserved. You think so? Yes. Well, why is that?

Six week abortion ban. Do you think that's driving a lot of it? I do. It's what sort of when I talk to women, when I talk to them about Ron DeSantis as a potential candidate or we've just interviewed him, it's why don't you ask them about the six week abortion ban, six week abortion ban? Who would do a six week abortion ban? It is fascinating. They not have an angry country. The interviews that we had when we actually talked policy and went deep in policy. You go deep into policy, which reminds me, and we talked about it on this show before COVID,

reminds me that he was sitting 55, 60 percent approval rating. There were a lot of Democrats that were saying, this guy is doing a good job. It's so interesting how COVID was so polarizing and the lane that he chose. And a lot of people are going to be talking about this for some time that he chose the lane, sort of the MAGA lane. And the calculation was, let's go MAGA without the baggage that Trump has. I still think and I've never really understood why people don't go main street Republican when you're going up against Donald Trump. I think I think he would have had a lot more support, a lot of people, maybe not in the early states. But but but it seems that was the best way forward. But who knows? We'll we'll never know. Let's bring in right now.

Pulitzer Prize winning columnist at The Washington Post, Eugene Robinson. And Jean, your latest column for The Washington Post, you talk about the fall of Ron DeSantis's presidential campaign. And you also do not give him a fond farewell. Your piece is titled The Nation's Gain in Florida's Loss. Yeah. And you say it's hard to see what DeSantis might have gained from his presidential run and easy to see what he has lost. His appeal, in theory, was as someone who could deliver on Trump's MAGA policy agenda without all of Trump's baggage. But DeSantis proved to be an awkward, wooden candidate who struggled to connect. His best weapons in Florida had been his bluster and belligerence, but he was too timid to use them against Trump. As all the failed GOP

candidates have learned, primary voters don't want new Trump, not while the Trump classic is still available. A nation's gain is Florida's loss, sadly. I fear DeSantis will continue using the state as a stage to boost his MAGA profile, just like those awfully high heels on his cowboy boots. See, there we go. I think Gene makes a point. There we go again. Listen, he's very callous and it starts with the six week ban. There are a lot of other things we could talk about as well. But you notice, Joe, that he immediately endorsed

Donald Trump. He wants to continue to use that movement for his purposes in Florida. Yeah. Yeah. Gene, I you know, here's a guy who's not up for for election again. I don't really understand it again. Yeah. If you're if you're on DeSantis and you were sitting with a 60 percent approval rating before covid and and you had Democrats saying you're doing a pretty good job on the Everglades, doing a good job on the environment. You know, I don't I just don't understand why in the age of Trump, nobody's figured out that there is a lane a mile wide for a Main Street tough Republican. But they they have it. Nobody's done it. No, nobody is. Nobody has even tried it. And look, that that was his lane.

And he's coming out of Florida, the third most populous state in the country. As you said, he had those high approval ratings. But he went, he decided to take the MAGA Trump without the baggage lane and to use Florida as kind of a demonstration project for his presidential campaign. So, yes, he first the 15 week abortion ban and then the six week abortion ban with no exception for rape or incest, which is just, you know, far beyond the pale of what most people would accept. There was the no say gay bill, which led to his absurd, crazy war with Disney, the state's biggest cash cow. He there there were these standards of learning that he imposed on the schools that say, among other things, that some enslaved African Americans benefited from slavery and prohibited teaching

in the schools that made anybody uncomfortable about race. You know, those standards made me really uncomfortable. He just went sort of full maga in that way in Florida. And you see the result. You know, the campaign burned through $150 million, and he didn't even get to New Hampshire. He did endorse Trump. He did it a bit too grudgingly for Donald Trump, I think. He basically said, OK, it's clear you guys want Trump, so go ahead and vote for him, basically. And so he's not going to get any favors from Trump in the future. But I fear he's going

to go back to Florida. I guess he thinks he's got a political future. I'm not quite sure what that future is, but he's I think he's going to keep it up. And I think that's just bad for, again, the citizens of the third most populous state in the nation. Well, I mean, if he he has a choice to make and if that choice is that he's going to be Ron DeSantis post-COVID, you know, dealing with library books, dealing with history, dealing with these other things. Things that aren't going to help him in the long run. Then we know what that fate is going to be. If he looks over the horizon, Jonathan Lemire, and sees another Trump loss, who support, you know, a foreign policy that actually protects American interests across the globe and freedom. But that's a choice he has to make. I'm not so sure he's going to go in that direction. Yeah. First, to Gene's point about DeSantis not receiving much warmth from Trump.

Trump made a big show of saying he was going to retire the Ron DeSanctimonious nickname and then promptly used it again yesterday. Also, we should note DeSantis has yet to appear with Trump at an event. And the others, Republican rivals for the primary field, Vivek Ramaswamy, Doug Burgum, Tim Scott, they all have been with Trump in New Hampshire the last couple of days. Eugene, I did want to you started to talk a little bit about what DeSantis's future might be. And I want to go a little deeper on that because it was it was pretty transparent in recent days. His aides talking to people and planting quotes with reporters from supporters saying how much people were coming up to them and saying, oh, you know, we actually really like Governor DeSantis. But it's not his time yet. Twenty twenty still Trump. But hey, 2028, that could be DeSantis' moment. Now, as Joe just said, DeSantis is going to have to make some political choices between now and then. But my question to

you is, it is rare to see a candidacy implode with such swiftness and such vigor as Ron DeSantis' did to the point where I wonder if he's so badly damaged that he hasn't set himself up for 2028, but rather, you know, this moment has already passed him by and his political future may be coming to an end. I think that's I think that's entirely possible. I really do. First of all, he's in office, I believe, till 26. Right. And and but but he can't run again. I think he's term limited in Florida. And so what's he going to do? And then people are going to remember this campaign. I mean, he did leave an impression. Unfortunately, it was a really, really awful impression that he left as as this, again, sort of awkward guy. You saw the smile. You saw his sort of inability to connect on a human level.

That's not good for him. I think that's one of the things people are going to remember. And also his inability to choose any sort of lane to run in that that made any sense. I think people will remember that. And I just don't know where he goes from here. I really don't. All right, Gene Robinson, thank you so much for that fond farewell. There's a bit of a tear in, I think, your left eye. You better check. Yes, I know.

Thank you. I've been inconsolable, Joe. I really have. I just I just. Ron, we hardly knew you. We hardly knew you. All right. Thank you so much. Gene Robinson, Pulitzer Prize winning columnist, Gene Robinson, The Washington Post. Thank you so much, Willie. First, a couple of quick things. One, this is a guy who in 2022 had a massive landslide in Florida and his landslide wiped that was Ron DeSantis that did it. So it is

politics is a tough game. One year later, everybody's saying this. That's one. And number two, think about the parallels here between his campaign and Jeb Bush's campaign. Both of them raised one hundred, two hundred million dollars. Both of them were going to be the people who stopped Donald Trump. And both of them got out and and pretty, pretty tough circumstances. Yeah, it is extraordinary, isn't it? To go back to November, December of 2022. Ron DeSantis is coming off a nearly 20 point win in the state of Florida, which most people thought he was going to win. But by 20 points in Florida is something else. And then thinking, OK, this is the guy in the Republican Party.

This is a guy who helps us turn the page on Donald Trump. And as you said, he tried to out Trump Trump in some ways, tried to out MAGA Trump, which, as Marco Rubio and Ted Cruz could have told him from 2016, just doesn't work. And John made a good point a minute ago about what's going on up here, which is that all of the people who attempted briefly in some cases to run in this election against Donald Trump and then fell to the wayside have raced to endorse him, raced to be standing behind him, to introduce him at rallies up here in New Hampshire, with one exception, Governor Ron DeSantis of Florida. A little bit frosty between the two. The Trump campaign has said publicly, yeah, he's welcome to come and campaign with us if he wants to. And so far, Governor DeSantis has turned that down. And actually, yesterday, there was a moment where Politico reported on a bill

that some state officials in Florida had put forward to make taxpayers pay Donald Trump's legal bills. Think about that. The billionaire Donald Trump, alleged billionaire, pay his legal bills. That was floated out there. And Ron DeSantis came out publicly and says, not as long as I have the veto pen, taxpayers are not paying his bills. And that bill was withdrawn. So there's definitely some frostiness there, as you've seen for a few minutes now in our two shot. Mike Barnicle, the great Mike Barnicle, is here with me in New Hampshire. Mike, we were talking last night. You said 1968, I believe, was the first New Hampshire primary that you were up here for. Yeah. Where Eugene McCarthy gave gave Lyndon Johnson a run

for his money. I came up here to bring something to Dick Goodwin, Richard Goodwin, famed LBJ speechwriter, famed intellect, Doris Kearns Goodwin's husband. I literally drove up with some things that belonged to him that he requested. I brought him to the hotel room right down the street here, the old Dunphy Hotel. And he had an Olivetti portable typewriter on the top of the credenza in his room. And he said, you know what this is? I said, yeah, it's an Olivetti portable. He said, no, no, no. He said, this is the typewriter that's going to lose Lyndon Johnson the presidency. They made a run at it. They made a run at that year. So let's talk about,

I won't ask you to walk through every year since 1968. Let's focus on this one and how, just how different this time feels. It does feel like we're at the last moment that Nikki Haley could pull off something and change the dynamics of this race and then make the case I'm going home to South Carolina and change everything. The way, by the way, as we sat here in 2020 with a deflated and dejected Joe Biden before he turned the corner. What's your impression of what you've seen talking to people through the state of what it's like here in 24? The process that we're familiar with, that we've been used to for several years, several primary elections, that's gone. It's just gone. It's sad, but it's gone.

It might revive itself with different candidates four years from now. That we don't know. We saw Nikki Haley last night in Salem, New Hampshire, just south of here. She was adequate, but there was no excitement in the crowd. Tepid responses. Pretty good crowd, though. 300 people. But there was just something lacking.

And what was lacking was her ability to define who her opponent is, Donald Trump. She refused to tip. She tiptoed up to Trump. She didn't hit him at all. And the odd thing is last night and not for the first time, what Joe was just talking about, Main Street Republicans. You know, you could do something here you could do something versus trump we saw the product of a main street republican and he would be an awesome candidate against any democrat and that's chris sununu the governor of new hampshire he was electric and he has all the things that nicky haley seemingly does not have he has the ability to reach out to touch people eye contact engage with people laugh he's got a great sense of

humor, talk seriously about issues that are important to him and important to a lot of people, not just in New Hampshire, but the country. But he chose not to run. Yeah, guys, he's a great advocate for Nikki Haley. And in the parallel universe or in olden days, you'd go to that event we went to last night. Big crowd overflow room. Everybody's in there. She's got a policy focused message. It's like from a time before Donald Trump. We go, OK, she's well versed on everything. She gets the issues, whether or not you agree with her. That's one thing. And then you get to the part about Donald Trump and the tiptoeing begins, which is OK.

I don't know, guys. I was proud to serve in his administration. I served and she talks about her credentials under Donald Trump. And then she said, but chaos just seems to follow him everywhere. It's the passive voice comes in fairly or unfairly. She says the chaos seems to follow him. The best case, I think, to a lot of people that she made and Chris Sununu made it as well as I beat Joe Biden. Look at any poll. I beat him handily. And Sununu's argument was the Joe Scarborough argument. Here are all the years that we have lost under Donald Trump.

If you want to lose again, don't vote for Nikki Haley. Go vote for Donald Trump or stay home. Yeah, I just don't understand. That's the easiest argument to make. And you don't have to even go after Donald Trump making. Do you want to lose or do you want to win? I'm tired of losing. We can't change America. We can't change the world unless we win elections. And we keep losing elections with this guy. You love him. Great. Great. Put posters up all over your house of him. Like if you want to build a little altar in your living room with sweaty Trump and 2K, people did that after Elvis died. You can even, you can make up whatever

whatever thing, make up whatever stories about Donald Trump you want. Like, we invite your bridge club over, invite your does anybody do bridge club anymore? I doubt it. But if they do, invite your bridge or your canasta group over and talk about Donald Trump. But when you go into that voting booth, vote to win.

I'm tired of losing. We can't keep letting fill in the blank and just go that way. Nobody did it. Nobody said it with passion. And I just wonder when Republicans stopped being as obsessed with winning as I was when I was a Republican. They're afraid. I don't understand it. They're afraid of Trump. You don't ever win by being afraid.

What's the quote, Mike? Scared money never wins. Never wins. You got to go. And the other thing I always said was nobody ever stopped me when I was going 90 miles an hour in politics. These people are going around with a little scooter. Going. Yeah.

I don't kick sideways. It's Donald Trump. Isn't going to cut it. It's Donald Trump. K.I. always follows him. Isn't going to cut it. I just, Mike, I just don't kick sideways. Donald Trump isn't going to cut it. Donald Trump. K.I. always follows him. Isn't going to cut it. I just Mike, I just don't understand it.

Well, you know, you know what's odd about it, especially especially odd, given Nikki Haley's background, is this state is made for her one on one in a primary, highly educated electorate, fairly affluent state. You can switch over if you're an independent. You can vote in either the Republican or the Democratic primary. It's right there for someone to take on Trump with all of the arguments that you just presented. And not one of the Republican candidates, including last one standing, Nikki Haley, will do it, as Willie just told you. She stepped up there and says, you know, fairly or unfairly, chaos ensues when Donald Trump is elected.

No, not fairly unfairly. He's a chaotic candidate. He's a disturbed individual. Here's what he's going to do to the country if he's retained as president of the United States in November. She never does that. There's no laundry list of negative attacks on Donald Trump from her personally to a crowd. There's none. And there's no interaction with the crowd. She gives speeches 35, 40 minutes long. They're fine. They're substantive. And then she basically waves and leaves. No questions asked by the audience

and no interchange with the audience. No going out into the audience. A loser, a loser in the skirt. So here is Governor Sununa, governor of new hampshire last night introducing nick haley in salem here's the argument he made it's a tough crowd we lost in 18 and 20 we're gonna get that big red wave in 22 hey donald trump where the f is the red wave give me a break we are tired of losers and we're tired of losing. We want to win up and down the ballot. There's an amazing, amazing opportunity here. So, Joe, there's Governor Sununu making that case very clearly. It's not that hard to do, actually. Yeah, well, you know, it's amazing for Nikki Haley because there were so many different ways in which she could have gone after Trump. And I don't want to hear, oh, she can't. She'll turn off the voters. Let me tell you something. As a woman, she should be disgusted with him.

She should point out how violent, disgusting this man has behaved as a public servant with experience in foreign policy. She should be so insulted for the treasonous behavior of this former president for what he has admitted to. And as a mom, she should be speaking forcefully against him. And so everything just comes off as flat because, you know, she's not really telling the truth. Well, you you first of all, regarding Sununu, Mike, you're right. I mean, that's that's the message right there that needs to be given that that Donald Trump's a loser. He he's he's just loses year in and year out. And there's a reason why Sununu looks like a winner.

Well, he has a 70% approval rating in his state. He's been riding around with a 70% approval rating in a state that Joe Biden wins by 6, 7, 8, 10 points now in polls. It's not a purple state anymore. Donald Trump and his craziness has turned New Hampshire blue. But, you know, I think, Mika it to your point, it's just disappointing. The the the when you look at Nikki Haley being asked about the E. Jean Carroll case and she says she doesn't follow the news, she's not a lawyer at Willie.

The judge in that case said that Donald Trump committed rape. He said by any definition, if you look at the definition of Webster's, if you look at the definition by the United States Army, if you look at the definition by the Justice Department, you look at any definition of rape, Donald Trump raped E. Jean Carroll. Let me say that again. The person Nikki Haley is running against was accused by a judge of raping E. Jean Carroll. And when Nikki Haley's asked, she says, well, you know, I haven't really followed that case. Yeah. And she says, I'm not a lawyer. I mean, think it used to have to work really hard at Oppo, as you know.

Right, Joe, you have to comb through people's past and find some conflict of interest or something they'd done 20 years ago. For Donald Trump, the oppo is everywhere. It's all out in the open. And what you could have said theoretically right now, if you were Governor Haley, is as we sit here right now in New Hampshire getting ready to vote and decide who we want to be our nominee and maybe the next president, Donald Trump has to do evening events here because he spends his days in a courtroom in Manhattan where they're deciding how much he should have to pay the woman a judge says he raped, that a jury found him liable for sexual assault. Is that the person you want to represent our party?

Is that the person you want to represent our country? It's all sitting right in front of these candidates. All of it. January 6th. But really, right now, the urgency of what Mika is talking about with women in particular. But how about decent people who don't want somebody who a jury found liable for sexual assault to be the nominee? But even Nikki Haley, Mike, can't say that explicitly. You know, it was a sad Nikki Haley's candidate. Mike, let me just say, following up on what Willie just said there and going the Chris Sununu route, you can say, do you really think we have a chance of breaking Donald Trump's losing streak now that Donald Trump has been found guilty by a jury of his peers, a jury of voters like you, a jury of his peers of sexual assault.

And after a judge has said he's a rapist, do we really want to take that into November against Joe Biden and the Democrats? Do you really think that's the best way to win? I mean, come on, this is, Mike, this is not hard stuff. This is like politics 101. You have a candidate for the presidency on the Republican side who is awaiting a sentencing hearing. And there will be more sentencing hearings, given the fact that he's got so many trials. If he's found guilty in one, he will go to the polls in November as a convicted person in a federal court. So we'll see what happens there. That will be a weight that he will have to learn how to carry. And I don't think he can do it. But back

to Nikki Haley, the point that Willie just raised, it's kind of sad watching her. I'm sure she's a very well, she's clearly an intelligent person and she did a fairly effective job as governor of South Carolina. There's no doubt about that. But there's something about these small states, Iowa and New Hampshire specifically. And especially you have to show an ability to show people that you like people, that you enjoy being with people. Chris Sununa can do it. Obviously, he's a native. He lives here. But he has a talent that would be transferable.

Nikki Haley, for some reason or other, seems to pull back from crowds. She has just a rote personality that she addresses people with and everything like that. But there's no interchange with people. And New Hampshire is critical. New Hampshire everything like that. But there's no interchange with people. And New Hampshire is critical. New Hampshire people expect that. They expect to see the candidate two or three times, perhaps, in barbershops, in grocery stores, on main streets in New Hampshire. And they expect to think that they know more about the person prior to voting than they

do from any other state and any other candidacies. But that doesn't happen with Nikki Haley.